Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1187 | When Lisa Faced the Darkest Night of Her Life, Al Saw Light Break Through

Episode Date: October 15, 2025

Jase opens with a $5 wager that most of us think too small about “redemption.” Zach points out that most people treat redemption like a “get-out-of-hell free” card, but it actually goes much deeper than that. Al describes what a truly redeemed life looks like because he saw it with his own eyes in Lisa’s life. The guys also tackle a controversial verse in Hebrews about a “better” resurrection and why it matters. In this episode: Luke 21, verse 28; Luke 2, verse 38; Romans 3, verses 22–26; Romans 5, verse 17; Romans 6, verses 12–23; Romans 8, verses 1–4, 23; 1 Corinthians 1, verse 30; Ephesians 1, verses 7 and 13–14; Ephesians 4, verse 30; Colossians 1, verses 13–14; Hebrews 4, verses 15–16; Hebrews 9, verses 12, 15, and 18; Hebrews 11, verse 35 Chapters: 00:00-11:23 Jase & Zach Make a Wager 11:24-19:51 We’re Living in Redemption Now 19:52-26:03 The “Get Out of Hell Free” Card 26:04-32:47 Our God Has Scars 32:48-38:11 Sin & Skin Separate Us From God 38:12-48:52 The Tenth Redemption Scripture 48:53-58:04 Coming to God With a Clean Conscience — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? So we have a little family, not spat, but a little family wager going on between me and Jace. I was like, the stuff in between is the stuff. One day, Maddie, there's a release about it. I asked you one question. There was no wager. I said, oh, I think I did, bet $5. But, Jace, you did? Yeah, we did have a little bit of a wager. Jay said he asked a question. I don't know.

Still a stunner, we'll get into it later. But he asked the question. Oh, no, we're going to get into it now. He doesn't. Not yet now. You don't poke the Jace bear. Well, when he asked the question, which he'll give in a second, he said, what's the first thing that pops in your mind?

When you hear the word redemption. When you hear the word redemption. Because based on our last podcast, we... Which we just recorded like two minutes ago. Yeah. I went to Romans 5, and I thought verse 17 was very profound. It got lost because I read half the chapter. You know, because it started off saying,

God demonstrates his love for us in that while we were sinners, you remember it? Christ died. Christ died by the ungodly. And it gets to verse 17, and he's comparing the one man Adam and his sin and the results of it and the one man Jesus and the results of that. And what develops is this, what is the word, the paradigm of life and death, death and life. And so you're reading it and you think, okay, well, death was raining because of Adam's sin.

And you think he's going to say, and now you see life that Jesus brought, but he's, actually he makes the sentence in that those who are in Jesus reign in life. Oh, it is just absolutely. Yeah, so the contrast, the contrast is twofold. It's one, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, and then, it's, and then, and then, then, then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and so, and so when you ask the question what the debate or the the thing was you said what's the first thing that pops in your mind when you hear redemption when you hear the word redemption was the first thing that pops in your mind and you said justification and then uh then you got really weird you you then kind of i said what do you mean by justification and then you told me and then you said but i don't agree with that you didn't agree with yourself.

And I was like, well, not what I was, you asked me to say the first thing that popped in my mind, but you didn't ask me, what did you,

what do you think redemption is? If you would ask me, that I would have had a longer answer, but when you said it, I just, that's the first thing

that popped to my mind. And I think that's what most people would think. And I think I know where you're going to go with this, but you haven't told me yet. And that's where the,

five dollars that you didn't know where I was going to go with it, with it. The bet's been made and I've already told Al. Okay, so here's what happened. Before you do say this, though, Des, let me just throw this in, because redemption is part of redemption is that,

because Ephesians 117 says, in him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, and according with the riches of God's grace. Al, Al, I'm going to read Ephesians 117. Okay. Look, we're fixing to read. Just dropping a nugget. every passage where the word redemption is used. Okay.

You want to take a guess on how many there are in the New Testament? And I'm going to say about 10. You are exactly right. It is 10. Are you looking that up? I'm looking at all 10. I got my computer today. I came for a bear.

I was like, that's pretty good. There's only one. There's only one, I guess, in the old, Testament, which would be Luke 21, 28. And if you want to push back on the Old Testament, I don't think Jesus had died at that point. Correct. Luke 21.

And it's an interesting one in that it's in that language about the destruction of the temple in AD 70 in amongst all that imagery. But even Jace, the one in Luke 2, 38, because it's, it talked about the redemption of Jerusalem, is that idea. Yeah. Well, that one's not showing up. Up on my, but the first one I have is Luke 21, 28. Now, Luke 238 says the redemption.

If you, if you throw in redeem, not redemption, you add another five. So that's probably the Luke. So it's, you know, when I said 10, I was specifically using the word redemption. But my point was when I said, what's the first thing that pops to your mind when you hear of redemption? We all think, like Al did, Ephesians 1, we're like, well, Jesus died on the cross to redeem us. Now, when you look up the word redemption in the Greek before I read these passages, which I'd like to pronounce it, apolitrosis. That's the word.

What's interesting, if you just read the scholarly definitions of that word that I just pronounced, ransom in full, now that rings a bell, right? Yep. riddance, purge, covers. And I'm just reading their definitions here from, what is this? Bible Hub, Greek lexicon, Christian salvation. So you get the idea. I mean, think of that when he said, I give my life as a ransom.

I didn't come to be served, but to serve and give my life. Now, that's the, even though the word for redemption, there's not. used. It's the same. The Greek word is that. Yeah, the same thought processes. And so what I, and look, I didn't read all this in a book. I just read the verses where it's used, but here's what I found interesting. That's why I said, the first thing pops in your head is, okay, would Jesus shed his blood? Like Zach said, justification. So when you read the, Luke 21, what was it, 28, let's read that one. It says, and we're not going to get into the backstory or even context. I told it was about what we believe is.

Now, a lot of people believe this is when Jesus comes back. Right. End of time. We think it was the end of Jerusalem. Either way, that's not our point. Let's save it for another time. 2128, Luke, when these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads because your redemption is drawing near.

Huh. So we're trying to wrap her head around redemption. So that's the most odd ones. So the first time after Jesus dies and is buried and raised is mentioned in Romans 3 in verse 24. I want to read that one. It's the middle of a sentence. So let's read 22. This righteousness comes from God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

There's no difference. For all have sinned this famous verse and fall short of the glory of God. are justified freely, which this word free is going to keep popping up because their idea of a ransom, whatever you're thinking modern day, that liberation would happen through, you know, like they could be, we always just think kidnapped or what, you know, somebody's taking a hostage. But back in their day, it's like if you lose a war, well, you go to prison, you know. Or if you were in debt, you know, you go to prison. Yeah, you got a debt.

And so there had to be a ransom paid for you to be free. It wasn't just, you know, the way we think of it. A crime. Yeah. So, but you're justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Now, if you go on, it says God presenting him as a sacrifice of atonement or have another, or as the one who would turn. aside wrath, taking away sin, through faith in his blood.

So you got that. So far, Zach's tracking in what his answer was, right? Right. But hang on. Let's read them all. That's two. Next time it's used, Al Usoor is used. Romans 8.

This is where the plot gets a little tricky, Zach. And this is where I was headed. Because it's not only used. used about that blood being offered to free you from your sin, but also Romans 8, 23. Let's read this. It's in the middle of a sentence also. No, 23. Not only so, the context, we know that the whole creation has been groaning. And by the way, let me start in 21, because this it up a little better, that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay. Look, same kind of language, liberated, freedom, and brought into the glorious, look at this

word, freedom of the children of God, that this keeps coming up. When redemption is around, freedom is being mentioned over and over. we know that the whole creation has been grown in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time not only so but we ourselves who have the first fruits of the spirit grown inwardly now watch this as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons the redemption of our bodies hmm interesting Interesting. Our bodies are going to be redeemed? How could our bodies be redeemed because we have the spirit? We have the first fruit to the spirit. How is that possible?

I'm asking you. How is this possible? How is our bodies redeemed? How is it possible that our body is going to be redeemed? Well, because Christ's body was resurrected. Oh, but when the first thing that pops in your mind, when you hear redemption is you think, would Christ die for my sins?

But in this case, the first thing that pops in our mind when it talks about the redemption of our bodies is Jesus's resurrection. So that's my point. It's the word redemption. And look, this is not the only one, because when you read all 10, oh, this is going to come up again.

He's going to link that it's not just a liberation of sin. Yes. Because it goes back to that lion and the lamb. You remember John the Baptist? Behold, the Lamb of God takes away since the world. Well, right. He's going to be a sacrificial lamb. He's also a lion because he was dead,

and then he came back from the dead. And even here, it's paralleled to the creation somehow being renewed, this new creation. So that's all I was going to make the point, my point is we tend to only think about the cross and the redemption that occurs. And actually, Jace, in your context of what you were saying, Ephesians 1, which I read earlier, 7, when you get to 14, it gives you the flip side of exactly what you're talking about.

So Paul does that in the same context. You're stealing my thunder. So in Ephesians 1-7, you see, it's the blood that takes away our sins. But when you read Ephesians 1-14, 13 and 14, yeah. Oh, it's the resurrection. You say what I mean? I thought it was just interesting. I'm like, you can't separate Jesus' death, barrel, and resurrection when it comes to redemption.

Yeah. And it makes sense because God not only redeems us, he liberates us from sin, forgives us. He also does it so we can be that way forever. Well, would it be fair to say then? I mean, and this may be overstating it, but would it be fair to say then that when we surrender to Christ and the Holy Spirit is given us as a deposit, which we mentioned Ephesians, that that is a redemption point? In other words, we're not just waiting for our resurrected bodies.

We're living in redemption now. Yeah, I think so. I think it's not getting out. Yeah, there's no doubt. And that's the where I was going with it. But I'm just saying we don't teach this. I've never heard this. I've never even heard this talk.

And even it's subtle verses you don't even realize. And I want to name them all at least. You know, I skipped over First Corinthians. 1.30. But it talks about who Christ is. He's our righteousness. He's our sanctification. He's our redemption.

It's a descriptive word. Yeah. What does that mean? Well, he's redeemed us from a couple of things at least. Yeah. He's a liberate. The whole point is he came here. to set us free.

But I want to read Ephesians 430, Al, because you don't really think of that one when it says, what, yeah, four. Yeah, I had mentioned this one in the last podcast, the first part, grieve the Holy Spirit. Yeah, don't grieve the Holy Spirit with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Well, that's the resurrection context again.

Yeah, right. The redeeming of the bodies. Well, it wouldn't make really any sense if you didn't go down this rabbit hole. What's he talking about? I thought he already redeemed me. Right. You see what I mean?

Yeah, I see. It's a yes, we're redeemed, and yes, we will be redeemed with our bodies resurrected officially. Well, when we teach about the word redemption or salvation, I think it's good to understand that it is three parts of salvation. You're justified, yes, that happened. you know, when I put my faith in Christ, I'm being sanctified moment by moment by moment, and then one day I will be glorified. My body will be resurrected and will be freed from the presence of sin.

And all three of those words are biblical words. They're all biblical words, and they're all in there. That's why I think what the church is done, and I mean, I think the church is just mainly focused on the first one, justification, and that I got my get out of hell free card. I'm not going to hell. I mean, have I ever heard that before? I'm not laughing. Getting help, but it was, you mean, get out of hell free card.

That was a monopoly reference. Oh, get out of Monopoly. What did you say again? Get out of hell free card. It flowed, though, very well. Yeah. Good job, that. But that's what, I mean, I think that's how most of us grew up.

And, you know. And then that's why it shuts down, though, so many times where people's at, because then they don't talk about reigning and they don't talk about, then you're just talking about trying not to mess up so you won't get back inhale. But think about the contrast to this in chapter five of Romans that Jason started with. It's a free gift of righteousness. We reign in life through the one man of Jesus. But then you get this, then you get this in the very next chapter.

Then after he says all that, he says, don't, therefore let, let not sin. reign in your mortal body to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members as sin to, do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but, and here's our dominion, present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness,

for sin will have no dominion over you since you are not under law but under grace. So that is, by the way, the very nature of idolatry is to actually give the things that you're supposed to be exercising dominion over. It's to abdicate that dominion and giving it to the things that have dominion over you. And so what Paul is saying here is like in Christ, you're actually, you're supposed to have the dominion. You don't give that away to these idols over here. And that's why when you read on in Romans 6, which we've always taught, think about this, when we've taught Romans 6, what have we always, what has been? been the emphasis.

Romans 6. Baptism. Yeah. We've always taught it as like, this is what you do to get saved. But it's not just about a judge. I'll push, I mean, I wouldn't have worded it like that. I would more say it's a reenactment of the death barrel resurrection. Yeah.

Yeah, but I mean, I think we primarily, at least the way I heard it taught, it was primarily about our justification. We're coming to Christ in this. We were crucified with Christ. Cleanced of your sins. You've heard that. Yeah. I've told you, I'm totally again.

When you frame it that way, like, you know, should we do this? Let's go to Roman 6 to try. You've missed the whole point. I think it's more. I mean, his question was. Well, I'll just speak for me. That's how I read it. And so, like, I always used Roman 6 as a passage to talk about us.

That's something that when I was baptized, I died with Christ. I was buried with him through baptism in order to just as Christ was raised from the dead. I was raised to live a new life. But the end of Roman 6 isn't about our justification. Listen to what he says as he goes on. He says, what shall we say then? Are we the sin because we're not under law but under grace? And Paul says, by no means.

Don't you know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey either of sin, which leads to death or obedience, which leads to life? This is like the Bob Dylan song. You got to serve somebody. Are you going to serve life or you're going to serve death? You're going to have a master, which one do you want? But thanks be to God that you who were once slaves to sin have become obedient from the

heart to the standard of the teaching to which you were committed and having been set free from sin have become slaves of righteousness. This is what I'm doing now. I'm speaking in human terms because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, leading to more lawlessness. So now, this is my vocation now. So now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

And that's the fruit. It's the fruit that you get leads to sanctification. And its end, Paul says, is eternal life for the wages of sin is death. But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ. So it's just such a beautiful picture that, like, this is not a one-time event that he's talking about here. He is talking about the way that we live and have an exercise or dominion as participants in the divine nature, which is the life of Christ. Yeah, agree. And I was a good rabbit hole.

All right. Can I finish the three verses? So the next one is in Colossians 1, 13, for he has rescued us from the dominion of. of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the sun he loves. Sounds a lot like Romans 517, in whom we have redemption the forgiveness of sins. So it is. Yeah.

You know, that is, that is part of it. Absolutely. Hebrews 9. Can you believe it? Yeah, this is a good, this is a good one. for the context of what we're talking about in John 18. Exactly. That's why we went here.

If you're wondering, I thought you were in John 18. We are in John 18, but we have this weird thing happening that we're trying to wrap our head around where the ultimate high priest is being reprimanded by a guy who is a high priest in the system of God.

And hit in the mouth. Yeah. And he hit him in the mouth because of people. Just think of the, you just have to take a time out and say, Jesus did this, God did this. This is, this is the creator of the world here, in the world, being ridiculed. Abused. Abused.

But he's doing all this because of the verse I want to read after this little rabbit hole. Don't you think the Hebrew writer is so generous? I mean, think about it, he's just, he's not even. I would be making the case. Look at how corrupt. He's just making the case. In the best case scenario, the high priest that does all this stuff. But, like, he's not even really acknowledging the total corruption of the high priest that actually killed Jesus.

Exactly. Well, I'm getting to a verse that will make this sense, make sense of reading Hebrews and the situation Jesus was in. But I'm saving. But Hebrews 9, verse 15. Let's see, my translation. 12. Is it 12, Jay? I think it's 15.

It's in 12 as well. Hebrews 9.15. He mentions it 12 as well. Well, go ahead. I'm not sure where you're getting that out. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves, but he entered the most holy place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

Yeah, that's the first 12th. It must be a different word. Probably in what you're looking at is different. at the Greek. I'm looking at the Greek. That's the way I'm reading the NIV. Yeah, but I'm saying 9-12 is not in the Greek. You may look at up, well, just look it up real quick and see what word it is.

Just put Hebrews 9-12. Yeah, it's not in the Greek. So they, you know, there you go. Here you go. There you go. In 915, it is the Greek. So it says, for this reason, Christ is the mediator of a new covenant that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance now that he has died as a ransom to set them free

from the sins committed under the first covenant you know what's funny how is the word redemption is not even in 15 but in the greek uh let's see see which exactly where it is it's right in front of for the sins. Yeah, so set them free. So they translated this word. Am I going to be able to say that again? Can I say it one more time? Maybe can you dub in where I said it the first time?

Well, that was a joke. Apolutrosis is used right there in Hebrews 915 where it says, Now that he has died as a ransom to set them free, free from the sins. So to set them free. That's the redemption. So it be to redeem from the sins committed. The Greek word in 12 is Lutro is the Greek word. And it means a ransoming. So it's a similar. So it's a similar word with the ransom. Okay. But it's not the same. Yeah. It's not the same word. Well, the ESV actually says since the death has occurred that redeems them from the transgression committed under the first covenant. Yeah. It's that same concept of ransom.

Okay. So we get it, but it's sometimes talking about the resurrection time. Because what I'm saying is you can't differentiate those two things of freedom. That's why Jesus always said, I came to die and to come back. I'm not only John 10. I'm not only, do I choose to give my life, but God's give me authority to take it up again. I just don't try to separate that is the point, because the Bible does it. There is a redemption. And even that big deal about the body.

bodies, you know, but when I read that Romans Aed Al about we're waiting for the redemption of our bodies to be declared children of God, then it kind of hit me in that moment. Well, what do we need a body for if there's not going to be a new heaven and new earth? Yeah. What do we need a body for? Exactly. Because we're all, to Zach's original point, we're all thinking, oh, one day we're going to go off into heaven and leave. Well, that Romans, hey, it's pretty powerful. He's like the creation itself waits to be liberated from its decay,

and you two are awaiting the redemption of your bodies through His Holy Spirit? Which, Jay, that's probably where, in my opinion, false teaching comes from of a spirit resurrection. You know, that's why Smith fought so hard to train us to understand it is a bodily resurrection. Oh, it's a bodily resurrection. and Luke 24, you know, when he's like, look at my hands and my feet. First Corinthians 15. And look, I think that's the whole point I was getting to, and I'm jumping the gun. And I wanted to finish strong on this, but I just can't help it.

I have to say it. When he said, look at my hands and my feet, look, you know what separates our God, among other things from all other gods? Our God has scars. You know, when he said, look at my hands and my feet. And that was the whole point when we get to John 18, why you feel so icky, is because because God decided to enter as a man into this broken world and have all this brokenness and terrible things be done to him so that he could ultimately sympathize.

You're right, Joe. We have a hard time with the lamb part. It's just hard for us. And I think the reason why I thought about, when you were talking about the line reference earlier, I thought about 1st Peter 5, when Peter says be self-controlled and alert, Our enemy the devil is like a roaring line, prowling for whom to devour.

How do you fight a line? You have to have a line to fight a line. I mean, it's only thing strong enough. So you see how powerful the enemy is, but Jesus is greater. So we love that part. We love the line part. But it's hard for us on the lamp part because you're right, Jay's. He submitted himself to these men, these pompous criminals.

I wish he would have just like evaporated them. But he said, do you speak that way of the high priest? I wanted you to say, I am the high priest. Exactly. But he chose to do it. And where I was headed with that is because what we didn't read before, because this last point I'm going to make about the redemption, it's kind of funny.

So I can do this now. But we hadn't read the greatest, I think, relation to where we're at in John 18 in this conversation with the high priest. Because in Hebrews 4 in verse 15, this is so powerful based on where we're at John 18. But we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses. He's pretty well proven that right here at every turn in John 18 and John 19. That's true.

And even the people who was supposedly supporting him. Just think about the loneliness, the alienation, the denial, the betrayal. we don't have a high priest who's unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way just as we are, yet was without sin. He did the God thing at every turn. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

And it's so awesome that he made access to God available, because that's what the high priest, that's what his whole job was. He was coming in there and making this place, you know, available for God and people to meet, right? Well, Jesus became the ultimate. And the ransom. The ransom is interesting language, right? Because we, if you look at the language in Hebrews 9 about that particular ransom that was paid, he says in that, it goes to your point about confidence.

Because I cannot enter into the presence of God with confidence. because of my own sin. It's for a good reason. Well, for a good reason. You can't enter in confidence in your, because of your sin or your skin, which goes back to Moses. You know, he's like, look away. I mean, this is dangerous. Well, it's why they tied a rope onto the high prison.

Yeah. So when he talks about this, this all goes all the way back to Exodus when Moses would, when he would take that blood after, and he would just throw in the blood on the people, He was sprinkling the blood on them to cleanse their bodies, basically, because of their sin. And so the argument that he makes in Hebrews, he says that the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of defiled persons with ashes of a heifer, sanctify the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirits, and now you see the Holy Spirit's role, offered himself without blemish to God,

a pure, holy sacrifice, how much more would he purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God? That is Roman 6. That's the point of the whole thing. I mean, it is cleaning up of the conscience and that blood, I love this how he talks about this, and it goes to the point of what we're saying about

how this whole thing started, Jays, when you talked about redemption. it's not just a one-time thing. And you see that in verse 18 of Hebrews 9, he says, therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. So what you see in the blood of Christ is it's an inauguration of the kingdom. This is the term would be this is an inaugurated eschatology, but it's not done. Like Christ is continuing. There is more to come. Yes, it was inaugurated with blood. Yes, we were justified before him. Yes, we are not counted guilty in a court of law. Yes, we're not going to go to hell because of the blood of Jesus, but how much more

will be saved through the sanctification of our minds and our spirits and how, and as we await on the consummation of the kingdom and glorification. And I love it because the Hebrew writer gives us the dirty little secret, or not us, but he did it for the Jewish people, that the sins were never taken away. That's the thing. Remember also, when you go back and read Exodus and see what happened, not only was that blood sprinkled and all the killing of the animals, but the sin itself was put on the back of a scapegoat, they called it, and then just sent out to wander around, and next year we've got to do it all over again,

meaning that your sin's not going anyplace. Exactly. Without Christ, without the Messiah. All right, I have to do this last Greek word for redemption, the 10th verse. This one was the most interesting, and I have to read it. Because actually, it helped me understand something that I had never figured out. It was like a controversial passage.

And it comes from this idea of gaining a better resurrection. And people have asked me that before on Q&A. They're like, in Hebrews 11, that's where this last usage of this word is. It's like, why would they, what kind of, how can you have a better resurrection? And I've always been confused by this. We missed it. that I have the right, now that this Greek word for redemption is in that verse, all of a sudden, the verse actually makes sense.

And so I want to read this. This was, it was amusing to read. I had to read this about 10 times to figure this out, because I was like, I don't see this word. I was looking for the English word translated redemption, wasn't he? I was like, what? So it's in Hebrews 11, 35. I think you'll find this really interesting. But just to kind of get the context, now we're in this Hall of Fame chapter, Hebrews 11.

You know, faith being sure of what we hope for when he goes through all these heroes of the old. So he gets down to verse 32 and he's like, what more shall I say? I don't have time to tell about. And he starts naming Gideon, Barrett, Samson, Jeff's of David, Samuel, who through faith, conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained. what was promised who shut the mouths of line. So all of these threats to all of their lives, and that's why I thought this was fascinating because it kind of goes in with where we're at in John 18

and what Jesus is doing. They escape the edge of the sword. We've weakness turned to strength. Yeah, same principles, and who became powerful in battle, routed foreign armies, women received back their dead. So here's where we're at.

This is where it's at 1135. raised a life again. Others were tortured and refused to be redeemed. Now, the English translated to be released. But here's our word. It's, I'm going to try to say this again? Apollutrosis. Apollutrosis.

Yeah, there you go. So it refused to be rammed. They refused, they refused to be ransom. Which, look, you remember the stories, though. How would they get released? All they'd have to say is deny their faith. They'd let them go. And I think that's the point because then it makes sense.

Yeah. They refuse to be redeemed on earth so that they would gain a better resurrection, a better redemption. See, it uses resurrection and redemption. synonymous, but one is in the earthly sense of just getting out of prison, it makes perfect sense now. Yeah. My translation says that they would rise again to a better life, which is probably a better way of seeing it.

Yeah. It's like, this is, yeah, this is about, but again, what is that? That's this inaugurated eschatology. That's this not yet now, kingdom. Yeah. So what did you call it? Inaguated. Inaguated.

Like, think about we went to be inaugurated. No, inaugurated. What was the next word? Eschatology. Oh, my goodness. Let me just... Hold on. Let me just give me one second.

Inaruated. Innaugated. Inaruated. Trump was inaugurated. Oh, I get what the word means. I'm just trying now to pair that with eschatology, which is the end or the future? Would it be the future? How do we sum that word up simplistically?

Future happenings? Yeah, where's all this headed? Where's all this headed? Inarguated. So Jesus, by his death, barrel, resurrection, inaugurated. Processing. The kingdom. Yeah, okay.

Well, why didn't you just say that? I mean, you're talking about a mind-bender. I'm like, Zach's like, this whole idea. Well, I mean, how much. You can't keep talking after you say that. You need to pause five seconds and let everybody say, wow. Let the wheels. No, I like it.

Now that I've thought about it, I like it. James was like your computer. He's that little spinning. there was a spinning in Jay's mind. We were watching. How much of our issues in the Bible that we come, the issues we do, how much of it is related to the fact that we're trying to pick

either or we're trying to say either now or later. And we're like, it's like the cany. It's now and later. Like it's now and later. Once you understand that it's now and it's later, and that's not a bad thing. That's a good thing. Which was illustrated by what Jay's just read.

He was reading about all these old, Testament people. Yeah. But that meant something then, but it sure means something now. Well, because if you have a view of the kingdom that it's all here, it's already all here, and there are people that believe that. We've actually had people, and they're very vocal. They have made that point on some of the comments that, I mean, they're even going

as far as I say that Christ isn't coming back. Like, that's already happened. And so that would be a view that the kingdom is fully, here. Well, the problem that you get with that is you get these things, you get like Hebrews 11. Now, how do you deal with that? I mean, like, this is, like, these guys were like, this is post-Christ. These guys were martyred for the faith. Which takes you to the other two elements, Jay's beyond, you've been stressing, we've been stressing on the cross and the resurrection, but what about the ascension and the promise of return? I mean, you know, that's where I was

going. We started this whole chapter off, talking about, you know, I got a mansion in a heaven, I don't know if you read the comments on all that. I don't even want to know. But look, here's my point is when I made that point about heaven. I don't know shame nation thought won that argument. And look, when I made that point about, oh, people like, heaven's expensive, straight to gold, all this. Heaven was expensive and is expensive because Jesus had to die

in order to enter there on our behalf. It shows you the cost. And that's my whole point for going down this rabbit hole. Jesus went through all this to show us the cost of what it took to redeem us. And he decided to do this and have be insulted and persecuted and ridiculed by a guy claiming to be the high priest of God. And Jesus is sitting there not even saying, oh, you think you're a high priest? Now, he did do that with Pilate when he said, oh, you think you're a king?

Remember what he said? He's like, well, the only reason you are is because God's giving you that. Well, now all of a sudden, I wish you to say to this high priest, same comment, which he kind of does, you know? Yeah. But Jesus, look, he took the God road at every path,

and he spoke truth. He's like, he was trying to, you know, just appeal to their common decency and fairness, but they just would have none of it. He's like, I've spoken, I've lived my life out loud, everything I've spoken. If you have a problem with it, just bring it to my attention. And we're going to read the exact passages. And what did they do?

They reached over there and hit him. Hit him in the mouth. Yeah, hit him in the mouth for speaking truth, for representing God qualities. And so by this, he is able to sympathize with our weaknesses. But I think you're really seeing the cost of this. and one day you see the appeal of this because you realize that our God, he is able to sympathize. He did the most crazy thing you'd ever think.

God became a man and crawled around. It'd be the equivalent of me, you know, becoming a roach and crawling around with the roaches to save the roaches, you know. And that's why none of us have it to be anybody's high priest. There's only one. None of us have that. And these people should have been the best servant. instead they were power mongers.

You said it in the last podcast. It was all about power. But Jesus is all about empowerment. It's just the opposite. It's the exact opposite. I mean, he doesn't actually, I think once you get in your crawl, that he doesn't need us to worship him

and for him to be God. He doesn't need us. I mean, I think that's a big understanding. And I think some of our theology sometimes I hear him, and I'm like, the way you're presenting God makes him seem so needy. Yeah.

I like that. He doesn't need us. Like, he doesn't need me to do anything. And the scripture is clear on that because the Bible says he's not served by human hands as if he needed anything. That's Acts 17. So I think that when you think then why did he die? Well, I mean, that's the thing that Jason said that he did it to prove or to show. But that's the Romans language.

He demonstrates, I think the NIV says he demonstrates his own love for us in this. Or my translation says that, but God shows his love for. us in this that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And so he is showing us in this. And this is connected to wrath. It is because he says, since therefore we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God? So, but a big, big part of this, I think this gets left out a lot is the fact that God is doing some type of demonstration of his love, end the very act of the cross and what he's going through, so that we can now approach him with full confidence, so that our conscience can be clean,

so that we're not enemies in our mind. And that's repeated in Scripture. Now, I won't go as far as to say that we aren't true enemies, because some people say that. Now, now, you're an enemy in your mind. I know, I'm a legitimate enemy. The reason why I'm an enemy in my mind is because I'm a real enemy of God. And so he does both. It's not one or the other, And I think when we get to atonement theory, when you're talking about the atonement of Christ, that Christ paid for sin, he pays for your sin because there is a real infraction.

And there's a real payment for that. And it's a payment in the form of a substitution, and that Christ took on that penalty of death for us. But it is also, and this is the part I think we often leave out, it is to clean my conscience before him. It is so that I can go to... It's proofful. It's proof of love and proof of life.

You know, because when someone, you know, is kidnapped or like, oh, I need proof of life, you know. Because if they die, you're like, well, that ended up. I'm not paying a ransom, yeah. Well, in this context, with the same words, it's like, oh, well, we have proof of life now three days later. But you also don't want to miss the fact that it's proof of love. I mean, it's the greatest, greatest love act that you could conceive. I love what Lisa said Sunday, and she says this when we tell her story. She said she was laying in the backyard.

She said, for the first time in her life, she said, I told the truth. I never just told the truth out loud. She told it to me, but it was also to God. And finally, we call it truth vomit. It just comes out. And then she goes out and she lays down in the backyard. And she said, if I could dig a hole, I dig it. I would have gotten lower.

The ground wasn't low enough for where I was. And she cries out to God and says, I don't even know if you're real. I don't know what I believe, but I know I need to be rescued. I know I need to be ransom to use this word. Has she said that before about the ground not being low enough? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She said, this is how she views it. And then she said, and he did it.

Like she said, and he came. And I love what she said. He didn't wait for me to clean myself up. He came to me. And I knew that point going forward. I was changed and I was different. And she was like, now I didn't know. I still didn't trust her.

I mean, months. Yeah, yeah. Months went by before I knew that that had really happened, but it really happened. Well, she didn't think about this. I mean, her statement, the ground's not low enough for me. I need to go under the ground. That's actually, that was true. Yeah.

And that's what she did very soon after that. She was buried with Christ and baptism. And then she mentions that as well. When she said that, I was thought, that's interesting how the devil tells you a lie. But sometimes it's like that can, I think that was a conviction from the Holy Spirit. No doubt about it. You got to die. But it was true, Chase.

It was back to what you said. to go, the only way love can prevail is if we do it with truth, if we're just honest and say, I'm a mess. This is, you know, this is it. And that's why these people had no love because they didn't really care about the people. Oh, think about this, though. If you go back to Peter's point about baptism, the reason why baptism is so important and what it represents is because when you come to the realization, the truth, when you get to the final truth, it's like, oh, man, the ground's not low enough for me. I got to go under the ground. I got to be buried. I got to die. I got to be buried. And the only way you can appeal to God for a good

conscience, the only way, because it says in First Peter that it's an appeal to God for a good conscience or it's a pledge of a good conscience towards God, depending on what translation you read. But think about that. I cannot go to this holy God. with what I've done and what I've thought and what I've entertained. That's the problem. My conscience isn't clear. It isn't clean. Well, how in the world could I ever come to him with a clean conscience?

The only way that I could do that is if this person died or that person dies and then a new creation comes. It's covered in Christ. Now, the reason why I can go before God with a clean conscience, I still don't feel like I'm good enough. Yeah. But that's not my, but now my appeal to God is not, hey, look at how great I am now. Actually, the reason where I can come into the covenant relationship with him with a clean

conscience is because it's a one-way covenant. He made the covenant. He died. He took on the penalty. I'm hidden with Christ. And so that's why my conscience is super clean when I go in there is because it's him. So, Jay, you got two minutes to wrap this rabbit all over. Well, Zach just quoted where we, the verse before Hebrews,

915, Hebrews 914, how much more then will the blood of Christ? And he was talking about in comparison to the law and the rituals and the sacrifices that were given. He's like, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit, there's your little side reference to the resurrection also, offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death or it says useless rituals so that we may serve the living God. And that takes me back to Romans 8. You know, we talked about the redemption of our bodies. But before he talked about that in Romans 8, 3, just listen to this. Or it just let me read the first four verses. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Because through Christ Jesus,

the law of the spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own son in the likeness of flesh or sinful man to be a sin offering. He offered himself. And so here's the key verse. He condemned sin in sinful man or the flesh in order that the righteous requirements of the might be fully met in us who do not live according to the flesh but according to the spirit and my point is the law exposed sin you know under the whole it exposed it they they we can't keep it because

we're weak humans and we're always just like adam with the one he had one command just one yeah he broke it and then it was exposed and then jesus condemned the sin it's So I think that's an interesting way to look at it. And then he did it forever because of the resurrection. It's true redemption, true freedom. And so good. I'm glad we're sort of, as we're describing these settings, showing what they mean in the big picture,

because it's important when you read the crucifixion story to understand how powerful it really is. So we'll pick it up here, John 18, next time. I'm unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed. podcast, help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.