Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1189 | Christian Huff Opens Up About Being the Father of Three Now & Why Did God Choose Moses?

Episode Date: October 17, 2025

Zach sees a fiery spectacle on his way to the studio, and Christian and John Luke have way too much fun connecting it to the “burning bush” story in Exodus. Al shares how meaningful it was to watch his grandchildren worship during Sunday church service, and the guys pivot to the heart of Exodus 3, reflecting on God’s name, “I Am,” and what holy ground really means when God draws near. They assess Moses' triumphs and failures to see why God chose him to lead Israel out of Egypt. In this episode: Exodus 3, verses 1–22; Exodus 19, verses 16–25; John 14, verses 1–6; Hebrews 12, verse 29 Today's conversation is about lesson 2 of The Exodus Story taught by Hillsdale Professor Justin Jackson. Take the course with us at no cost to you! Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/⁠ More about The Exodus Story: Explore God’s mercy as he leads Israel out of slavery in Egypt. Exodus is a central narrative of the Bible. It recounts the moment that God reclaims Israel as his people, rescues them from slavery in Egypt, and establishes the Ten Commandments to guide their moral and religious freedom as an independent society. In “The Exodus Story,” Professor of English Justin Jackson picks up the biblical narrative where his course on Genesis ended. Join Professor Jackson in learning about the nature of God’s mercy, human freedom, and the relationship between the divine and man. Enroll today to discover the beauty of God reclaiming the Israelites through his mercy and love in “The Exodus Story.” Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters: 00:00-09:20 Zach & The Burning Couch 09:21-18:01 Being Refined by Fire 18:02-25:08 Why It’s Good to Marry Into Money 25:09-34:04 Why God Chose Moses 34:05-43:10 God Is the Main Character 43:11-51:31 Spiritual Forces at Work in Egypt — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? I feel like there's a pre-podcast that at some point in the future, when we're just ready to burn it all down, we'll release what happens before we actually start the podcast. So, yeah, I got worked up. And the Christian starts immediately sitting out memes. Yeah, that's what he does.

I love only communicating in memes. Yeah. It's a skill. It's an art. You have to know exactly what. That was a good one that was because we were talking about, I'll simmer on a topic, and then as I simmer on it, like, it'll fester up into like a random, what did you call outburst? What do you call it?

Yeah. Topic or a person. Fester is a good word for what we just witnessed. Yeah, it's a fester. A thought comes to me. I just say it, so then he sends the meme out of me sleeping, some character, like a squirrel sleeping. It was sandy cheeks from sponge. Yeah, drool and sleep and then like, boom, the eye pops open.

She's supposed to be hibernating, but something that happened. But two hours later. Oh, my goodness. But we're in the book of Exodus. I just have a lot of opinions on all this because I've been studying it. So I could be wrong. Yeah. But I doubt it.

From Uncle Phil. They started with Jay's. Yeah. Started with the shirt. Well, how are you guys like in the Exodus so far? We've been the second weekend to it. I'm loving it. Yeah.

No, it's great. It just keeps in better. Yeah, I've a lot of things. thought, especially about this section that we're about to say. So I'll just save it. I like it. I'm ready to get into the conversation. We're going to be a horse.

Don't force his hand. I'm like a race horse. We got the burning bush. Let me go. There's so much stuff to talk about the burning bush. There's some good stuff. We just got done. It's this perfect timing.

I came in town because Sadie had a big conference, live original conference, which is awesome, by the way. And we're just kind of coming off of that. Are you guys, are you exhausted? Because you were... Yeah, I'm pretty worn out. That's a lot. Yeah.

Lots of baptisms. Lots of baptisms, which are incredible. Yeah. Yeah, then, you know, hosting people and, you know, so doing all that stuff, plus putting all the conference and then say, you know, kids only a month old, so not sleeping at night. So there's a couple of, it's a hodgepodge of things that have kind of festered into exhaustion. And the ironic thing was, is that Bella decided, I guess it was Bella, decided to do Duk Commander Sunday, like the weekend before.

Y'all had like eight days of just, I mean, like, because there were, there's two weeks. There were like 3,500 or whatever at y'all's event, and then there were probably 2,500 here just the weekend before. Yeah. Again, more mass baptism, which is awesome. So it's like these first century things, but, you know, like we're having them now, it's seemingly every weekend, which is, it is hard.

Well, the city of West Monroe and Monroe, thank you. I know that it's got to be a good shot in the arm for the economy because every restaurant I went into over the last few days was filled up with 18 to 25 year old or whatever the age. Mayor Stacey was very appreciative. I mean, it was quite the scene. Yeah, she actually came to the North Carolina Sunday and got up and made a little spill about the city

and their appreciation for the family, which was really great because, you know, like, I mean, and I went to school with her, you know, Stacey whenever. This is the mayor. Yes, this is the mayor. You know, you're getting old. the mayor now is somebody you went to school with, you know, of your town. And, uh, but she, she said some really nice things about what we try to do with the community to

continue it. And I love it that we had a festival. Well, I had a whole weekend full of events for that. And, uh, like, they did a gar roundup, like where you go out and fish for gar in the river. And they had all these different events and things going on for the weekend. But then I love it because like the day itself was all about God and started out with a very spiritual thing. And so Our kids were there. Y'all's kids were there. And one of yours just was not happy. I can't remember. No, it was Haven. Yeah, she was just losing her mind. So I thought about, we talked about them. My kids were there. Were they losing their mind? Your kids were immensely talented and did an awesome job. And we talked about that on Unashamed.

But Alex sent a video to our compound, which is our family group chat. And it's a picture of my seven-year-old. old and my 11-year-old granddaughters singing with and your your kids were up on the stage and Bobby and others of will and they had their hands raised and were praising God she she just kind of like she didn't want to like them but she did did the old side thing just to get a little video of that and it just it was so touching to see them at that age already like expressing worship to God it's just it was a really cool thing as a grandpa you know you get that that extra feels you know, for that. And it was really neat.

So, yeah, I mean, I've really grown to appreciate what everybody's doing as God just kind of spreads us out, you know, and the next generation is exciting, you know. It's exciting to see what you guys are doing. Well, here we are at the Burning Bush moment, which is kind of a key text in the entire Bible. You know, this bush that's burning all on its own but not being consumed. It's really kind of when Moses has his first interaction with the, Alway, at least in a way that God introduces himself for the very first time in Scripture, which is actually...

Well, and I had never, it's amazing. It's many times I've taught the Bible and taught Genesis that how did I miss that? That he never had said his name until here. Never said it. Which is true. I mean, and I didn't realize that until we got into this study, which shows you that there's always things to learn. But yeah, that was pretty... Which I would say the centerpiece of this text is the revealing of the name of God.

which, you know, he said he revealed himself to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but he said, never told him my name. And that, well, I think the name that he revealed to them, maybe was Al Shadai. Yeah. So it was that it wasn't a name, but it was like, more about, yes, I'm God. Yeah. Yeah. But in terms like the personal identification, that was withheld until this moment. And I found that very interesting, but it's not an accident of where this actually

occurs either in scripture. You know, we talk, I, I know, Al knows this. I'm obsessed with the temple motif, mainly because when we get to the New Testament, we become that temple. And when I think about my own life and my own, like what I'm, what I'm seeking is like connection, presence, intimacy, it's all the things that we want, right? And God does that by moving in and living into a human body. So you see this picture of the temple all throughout.

And any time in scripture, you think about a temple, you think about, it's kind of an elevated place above earth, but it's on earth, but it's a little bit higher because you're getting closer into God now. Tower of Babel, they tried to do it on their own, but it's like, typically it's on a mountain, and then God kind of comes down and meets on the mountain. So the mountain is always a big, big point, literally pun intended, a big point in the scripture that represents the place where God and man meet, the place where heaven and earth connect. I live in the mountains, so I know a little bit about this, but you know, you go up to a some of these mountains in Colorado in Europe, 10,000 feet in the clouds.

You feel like you're literally kind of in the heavens. You know right? So this takes place on a mountain. Moses is keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he fled his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the angel, the Lord, appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not.

consumed. Do you ever thought about the significance? I mean, he talks a little bit about this in the text, but the fact that the bush was not being consumed yet, it was on fire. And you ever thought about that? Yeah, I'm looking at a fire right here behind you. Yeah, it's just, yeah, I don't know what that. I don't know what that would look like, just looking at a shrub, and it's just like, yeah, it's crazy to think about it. Yeah, it's not, because typically if you, uh, true story, I just thought about this. The only in Westman, I got a video at it. I was on my way here this morning, and I was going by the gas station down here close to the paper mill.

And I see this, like, incredible flame. I mean, this thing is like one of those, like, dark red with black smoke flames. And it caught my attention enough to where I, like, I turned around because I said, is that a house on fire? But there were like no fire trucks or nobody was around. And I go down the street. and it's like in a neighborhood. This is not like in the middle of the woods. I'm in a neighborhood.

And there was a guy who had had his couch out in his front yard and he was burning the couch. Nice. I thought only. Welcome back to Westman. I was like, only a Westman, right. What are we doing today? We're going to burn the couch in the front yard.

I know like there's no police. It's just like this is what we do. And the couch was being consumed though. But the couch was being consumed. Unlike the burning bush. Unlike the burning bush. Do you think that, and I don't know that Dr. Jackson talks about this, but is there some symbolism you think of purity with this fire? Or do you think it's more like judgment?

I mean, I don't know. Like why a fire or why? Yeah, right. Why that particular, why would you use that? Well, you think about the New Testament, God's described as an all-consuming fire. Right. In Hebrews, yeah. The bush is not being consumed.

Right, right, right. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I thought his point was cool that he talked about, like, how the fire is kind of compared to scripture. And it's like, it's all consuming. Like, you can never get enough of it kind of thing. Yeah, he did make that.

I thought that was a really excellent point. But think about the nature of a fire is, in order for a fire to be a fire, it has to, it actually has to have energy, or matter to transform into energy. So it's, fire has to consume because it's, they actually. actually the generation of the fire is something else. Yeah. And so I think I think what's happening here, because God's going to identify himself as being self-referential in just a few minutes.

He's going to, when they ask who are you? And he really reveals himself. He's like, I am. And so in the bush, I think what you're seeing is the very nature of God, is he is self-generating. He's not reliant on the bush to burn. Yeah. He's like, I want to burn, I burn.

I generate myself. I'm self-refercials. And we compare ourselves or put ourselves in that position. Because, like he tells him, take the sandals off, this is holy ground. And so I think about songs we've sung, or I think about what is the one where it talks about, is it Peter that talks about refining,

a refining fire that purifies and gold, and it makes it even more pure. And the more you turn to heat up, the more pure it gets. So I think about that in relationship to Moses being here, And we hadn't even gotten into the part where he, we mentioned in the last podcast that he's like so self-doubting of himself. But it's like, well, the more you're in me,

the more you're near this fire, this holiness, this who I am, the more confident you're going to become. And we watch that. And we watch that process happen over this book. And then, of course, in the subsequent books in Deuteron as well, you see Moses like go through a transformation, you know, in a process. And he's quite the different. man coming out at the end. And you rarely get stories like that in the Bible because there's so many

like work in progress. But here we watch the whole thing happen. And you see him refined by this fire. And so I think back to this moment where he was so doubtful of himself and everything. And then I think about the man on the other, Mount Nebo, you know, that said God buried him, whatever that means. And then you see such a different transformation in a life. And so I just think it's interesting. And I guess maybe I'm more reflective on it, having, you know, just put my dad, you know, in the ground knowing he crossed over. But I just think about when you look at a transformed life and you can see the beginning and the end, I mean, it does a lot to then transfer future generations. And so that's what I see here in Moses in this moment, you know, where he's like, take your sandals off. Yeah, yeah.

There's something special happening right here. I see thinking about the bush burning in the fire, I think there's an element of control here. showing like I am all powerful but I'm also protecting like the fire is burning but he's not burning the bush like God's kind of it's almost God's saying they're like I can burn this if I wanted to but I'm choosing to go against the natural order of the world and not burn this bush to show you I've got power about also protect yeah and he's not dependent on that bush to burn either yeah one of the things that's interesting if you go to Exodus I think 19 when There's this old song that we used to sing.

It's like a bluegrass song that I love. It's you're drifting too far from the shore. And like everybody covered it, like Bob Dylan, I think sang it, Jerry Garcia, all the, you know, but it's, it's kind of a gospel. It's not a hell, but it's like a story about when we drift too far from God. And this is the picture of this guy is out on the sea. And he's drifting away. And so the course is you're drifting too far from the shore. you're drifting too far from the shore.

But it talks about this tempest that rolls in, and this word, like, tempest is like this incredible storm that you think about, like, the most fearful thing I can imagine as being out of the ocean when like a massive storm comes in. I'm like, that scares me. So that storm rolls in, and it's, and that, when in Nexus 19, it's like that kind of storm is surrounding Mount Sinai. And it's because God's presence shows up.

on Mount Sinai. And it's such a fearful scene. Like when you read it, it's like earthquake. It's like this whole like, I mean, everything's shaken. The whole mountain's just like violence. I think fire was there too. The fire was the whole fire. Exactly.

There was a fire that was surrounding it. Yeah. And God's instruction was the same thing that he told Moses here, don't come near. He says, don't let anybody come up this mountain. If they do, they will die. Yeah. Because God's holy. was too great for there to be present.

They couldn't be in his presence because of their sin. Except for Moses was invited to come up. So it's interesting you talk about the transformation. Because in this moment of God's presence, he was not invited to come. In fact, God said, stop what you're doing. Don't come in need closer. Take off your sandals.

The ground you are standing on is holy ground. Yeah, yeah. And I think that, one, it kind of highlights our condition. you know, pre-transformation. It highlights a condition of our heart that we can't enter into this. And he was full of fear. Don't forget to sign up to take these classes with us. They're free, unashamed for Hillsdale.com.

Yeah, and he says, Zach in verse 6, that this Moses hit his face because he was afraid to look at God, which, you know, later he's going to want to see that face. But I thought this was interesting too in verse 7. It says, the Lord said, I have indeed seen. the misery of my people in Egypt. I've heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I'm concerned about their suffering, so I've come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians. And I found it interesting because he says this out of a fire, and as we said, is more of a refining fire and this consuming fire of who he is. But I immediately thought back

to Genesis 18, which we didn't talk about because Dr. Jackson didn't deal with it, but was Sodom and Gamora. When you remember God, heard their sin had reached, the cry of the sin of this valley had reached him. And it was so grievous and egregious that he rained fire down as a judgment in that situation. So it's interesting here he hears this suffering. And out of a fire, he said, I'm going to come to rescue. But it was just exactly the opposite when you had this entire valley full of people that had gotten so hedonistic and so, you know, far away that their cry reached him as well. And that was a whole different kind of fire. So it is interesting to me to see when you look at this juxtaposition that

here you get this idea that fire, the consuming fire of God can be really great, can be really scary if you don't have it. Yeah, depending on what position you're in. Depending on your position. Fires the fire. His presence is his presence. What is the condition of your heart? Exactly. And can you, can you receive that fire as life? because if you can, it will, his glory will consume you. Right. One way or the other. It could be a good consummation or it could be like a consumption to destruction.

We talked about in Genesis and with Dr. Jackson in the other episode, how being in the presence of God requires obedience. And part of that, the reason, part of the reason God gave them the fruit of knowledge of good and evil was for them to obey to not eat it. Like, that was part of the requirement. And with Moses, while coming up on the burning bush, he is not, Moses is not obedient to God and is not planning on being obedient. Like, that's part of the reason I think God said, you can't come into my presence or coming into this fire. You've got to take your shoes off and stay back.

Because in the exchange that happens right after this, when God tells Moses what he's going to do, Moses, like, nope, not for me. He's not the guy for the job. Yeah, he's like, I'm not doing it. Moses tries to do everything he can to get out of doing where God is telling him. He has like five different things, excuses. Oh, yeah.

Which that's, well, I'll go ahead and read this. That's one of my favorite things is he goes through all the excuses. And God's let Moses like, oh, well, they won't listen to me. And God performs a miracle after miracle. And then we get to this line. And God says, now therefore go, I will be your mouth. I will teach you and you shall speak. But Moses says, oh, my Lord, please send someone else.

Moses is like, all right, you got me. You can do, I see that you're all powerful. I see that you're coming up with an answer to everyone my excuses. I just simply don't let go. And what I think is so interesting about that is, because I think about for me, in my case, if I think about if God calls me to something, for me, I feel like what holds me back

would be more shame versus the fear of like a lack that I can do something. Because you never see Moses really address the fact that he killed an Egyptian, right? Like if God's calling him to do this, I feel like for me, the first thing I would say would not be, I have a speech impediment. I feel like the shame would hold me back

more than a lack of equality of something like that. but that's not listed in Moses's lack of criteria to God, which I think is kind of interesting. Yeah. Because when he hides his face from God, because that can either be fearful or like he feels shame for something he did, but that's never addressed really later, right?

Well, it could be both. I mean, I think it is both because you have, you got to keep in mind that Jethro, his father-in-law, was not an Israelite. And so he's out in the wilderness, and he kind of folds in under this family. And you can only imagine, I mean, and think about the fact that Moses was not,

Moses was raised in an Egyptian household. Exactly. So Moses is not a guy that's been catechized in the Hebrew culture, or a culture of Israel at all. When he saves the bandits, when he saves the woman from the band, And they call him an Egyptian. Yeah.

I mean, they thought he was an Egyptian. And the only thing he would have learned was what his mother would have taught him. As she nursed him, remember, you know, in Farrell's house. On some level, you've got to believe that until this moment that this guy was probably even worshipping foreign gods. I think so. I mean, Egypt, I mean, this is not somebody that we would be like, okay, here's the guy for the job, which I think is the point of the text, is his incompetency, at least the beginning of

this text. It's his incompetency and his moral corruption, and it's maybe his shame, but I think it's highlighting this one big narrative that he's not the main character here. Exactly. It's God's the main character in the story, and God's the main character. He's always choosing the guy that you don't think he should choose. God is. And I think that that's intentional. I'm even when the Messiah ultimately comes, not how I would have done it, just saying, I would not have put the Messiah in a baby's body born in a feeding trough. I just wouldn't have done it that way.

But that's always kind of the angle that God comes down there. And you've got to think about it from Moses' perspective. He's by now, when this happens, he's 80 years old. And the first half of his life raised in a different culture knew about the Hebrews, obviously, because that's why he went out and he killed the Egyptian. He learned that from his mother, but he still wasn't part of that oral tradition

other than whatever she told him. And so he's 80 years old now. I totally understand from his perspective. He's thinking if there was some destiny, that ship has sailed. That passed. And so now I'm out here. I got my sheep.

You know, I got my little life. I got my family. He got into the, he married into money. Yeah, there you go. I remember when Joe and I first started dating and her dad was a plant manager for Goodyear. He was like on the track to be an exact.

executive for Goodyear. And he was, I mean, he was pretty high up. And, uh, and I, at first, that's the first time I met her parents. And I had, when I was in college, you, I don't know if you remember that car drove, but it was a 1983, Mercury Grand Marquis. So it was like a hoopty. We called it a hoopie. It was a piece of junk. But it was like, you know, I had to hoopie. I drive it up to her, her dad's house or to see Jill in North Carolina. And her dad walks outside. And he's like, and he's like, almost see her vehicle and I was like it's kind of a weird like introduction hey how's it going to miss yeah thank you offer let me stay here yeah let me go see your your your vehicle and I'm like

why does he want to see my vehicle and so he literally like then you're thinking oh I hope I got the drugs out of yeah yeah I was I was off the drugs at that I'm kidding but he's kicking the tires on this thing literally kicking the tires like measuring the tread I'm like what weirdo who does this that's a funner and he's like your tires are bald and I'm like well yeah I mean they're like 150 bucks apiece. I'm back then. I'm poor. I'm poor.

I got no money. I'm poor. I'm poor. He says, get in the vehicle and we drive to the good year store. And he's like, put four new tires on this thing. You can't drive my daughter with these bald tires. And I'm like, like doing the math in my head. And I'm like, those are like $150 a piece.

He just sunk $600. And I've got like $550. You better be the one. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, And I'm trying to like, I'm not going to do this? What I do? And I'm just like in this panic moment of like, how am I going to pay for this? And when the bill came due, like, he pulled out his credit card and he paid for the tires.

And I was like, there's the gospel. I said, she's the one. I said, I'm going to take this guy. I'm going to get everything. I'm going to get all. He did get a company discount. Yeah. me this now. And he did tell me, because I did the whole, like, alligator arms,

like, no, I'll pay. I'm saying it before. I was like, let me, let me get that. Put this one on me unless anybody else wants to do this arm. And he said, oh, you'll pay. You'll pay. So I have paid. But I think this is like the moment, like, where Moses is like, oh, this guy's got flocks, he's got the sheep.

I'm just going to hang out here. No doubt. And God calls him. Yeah. No, you're exactly right. I was going to say an interesting point because I feel like there's there's some things in scripture where like for Moses for instance you can look at him and it's like doesn't really make sense why God would call him. But then when you zoom out, I feel like it makes complete sense

by God would call him because he grew up in Pharaoh's household. So he knows the traditions, he speaks the language, like all this thing is even kind of tying him into like Paul. It's like, why would God choose Paul or Saul? But then you zoom out and it's like, well, he's a Roman citizen. He's a, like, he studied under Gamma. Like, all these things. So it's like, I feel like there's a, there's a, yeah, I feel like there's an interesting correlation between Moses and, and Paul or Saul, because, like I said, if you just look at it on the, on the text, it's like, well, would God choose that. But then when you zoom out, the way that Paul was able to reason with people and his, his, his learning and his citizenship, it makes complete sense what God would call him.

And same thing for Moses. It's like, yeah, he grew up in Ferris household, so he knew the traditions. He knew the language and all those things. And I feel like when you look at it like that, it makes sense why God would call Moses to do it. Well, and it's interesting that at 40, he thought he was ready to lead and able to lead. And by his own power would lead. But he found out that was an absolute failure.

I mean, his instinct was the wrong instinct in the moment. Because like a guy told me a long time ago, if you think you're a leader and you look around, nobody's following you, you're not a leader. Yeah. And that's what happened to Moses. And so now he's, he's in a situation where it's the last thing he wants to do.

Like he says, he's making excuse after excuse after excuse. And guys are, oh, no, you're ready. Yeah, you're ready. Now you're ready. Now you're ready. Now you're ready. And that's a great analogy to Saul and Paul, because, I mean, Saul was so confident that he was right and defensive of God. Like, it's like, how dare you go against my God?

And the one I know has always been. And he was right. It was the same God. The problem was he missed Jesus until Jesus introduced himself on that road. So it is interesting. And you do see that introduction, by the way, you mentioned about the woman at the well, that Jesus is that same I am. You know, I will be there, I will be there.

Was the way he put it? Which I thought that was an interesting take, you know, because he says, I am that I am. Was that verse 14? Well, that's what he gives his name, yeah. God said to Moses, I am who I am. And Dr. Jackson talked about one of the variants of that was, I will be there, I will be there. I will be there. Yeah, there are there.

Yeah. And which I think is very powerful, the idea of both proximity as well as the person of God. Because we kind of just focusing on the person of God, but he's saying the proximity of God. And this goes, Zach, to what you always talk about, the idea about God coming down, that he's here with us. And then, of course, when he went back, when Jesus left here, he said he sent the Holy Spirit because he's not leaving us alone. So I love that idea and that picture of the God all the way through. He says that in 3, 7 through 8, basically God says, I have seen, I have heard, and I have come down. So you see the condescension of God in this moment of the sun. This is the sun probably too, that is manifesting here.

Right. And I've seen, and I've heard, and I didn't stay distant. And I'm here. And I've come down. I'm here. I'm here. That's powerful. One of the things you said earlier, Zach said earlier about how God is the main character of the story.

That was one of the notes I'd written down for this story, especially about Moses. And this is something that lent the whole story more credence to me. Like, it's not a very good story if Moses is the main character. While I was reading through X's for this, I was also reading another book that's a fantasy book. And I read Epic Fantasy. I read tons of books. And I read this book and it was about this, this guy who was kind of a similar story, Moses. Like he was due for the throne.

They got kicked out. And then he goes on this whole, like, whole 10-year-long revenge story. And the whole time, he, like, never forgets, like, he never forgives him. He never, like, waivers from wanting revenge. In the book, you're like, yeah, I want him to get revenge. And then in the end, when he does, you're like, oh, yeah. Like, he did. it and I mean you kind of see his character like devolve while he's trying to get revenge and the

point is that revenge isn't good but it makes a good story because you see his like dissension you see him never want that revenge you see him spurred you see all that raw emotion and you're like follow you're just interested in like how he's going through this whole you know action adventure with Moses, he tries something, he gets kicked out of Egypt, and he's like, yep, I'm done, forget that. Like 40 years later, he doesn't want to go back. He doesn't want any part of the story. He doesn't want the action. He doesn't want fame.

He's just like, I'm just going to be shepherding out here in the wilderness. And God's like, nope, I'm going to drag you into this. which is like, just shows me like, God is a man character. God does have the power. It's not about our, like, at some point, we, God calls us and we have to respond, but it's not that because we have the thing. It's not the story isn't about us. It's about us being involved in what God's doing.

Oh, by the way, you guys could take this class with us at Unashemfreehylestone.com is absolutely free. We're in the book of Exodus. This is our second session on Exodus, or so we're in Exodus 3, the Burning Bush. God gives his name. So y'all come take this with us. It really does make, I mean, if you take the course, you hear Dr. Jackson's lectures. They're very short, too, and you can come here and sit in this with us.

But anyways, your dad, he was talking about kind of like having your head on a swivel, like being, I forgot how he said it, but like God's moving, whether you're a part of it or not. So the question is not like, God's not, his movement is not going to be dependent on us. So I love the way he said that because it's like so many times I think, oh, we don't do this for God. It's not going to get done. No, it's going to get done. He's going to get it down.

The question is not whether God's going to move. The question is, are you going to move with him in his movement? And I think that's, he's the main character. And he's inviting us into participate in that. But he is the main character. It is, he is sovereign. It is his ultimate plan and agenda. And I think that that whole agenda of God is centered around the idea of presence.

I actually think we should read the scripture through that lens. God wanted to be present with his people, and you see it in this burning bush, because you guys, what did you say that? Dr. Jackson says this. I thought, you just mentioned it. What was, you've memorized it. What was it? I will be there, howsoever, I will be there. I will be there, howsoever I will be there.

Like, beware. Yeah. It's with us. And so when I preached this text at our church, I didn't, I'd never heard that before, by the way. but I did find some research, I did some research on the actual Hebrew of this idea, of this phrase, I am that I am,

because I've always interpreted that with the Burning Bush, this is just saying that God is self-referential. Yeah. Like, he's self-sustaining. There's that passage in the New Testament where he says before Abraham was, I am. John, yeah.

John, yeah. Yeah, so I'm like, that's just, Christ is like, he doesn't exist in our temporal, like he's not bound by the temporal space. telling him for that. Oh, yeah, they did. That was a big deal. But he was referencing back to this Molner, right? And I do think that that's in here, but it's not all that it is. And so a lot of scholars, the Greek, the Hebrew word here is, it's a verb, ha, yeah, and it doesn't just point to his existence. This verb actually points to, it's a manifest presence. So when

And Christ is, when he says, I am or I will be there, what he's saying is, like, my name actually, yes, it's self-referential and all that, but in my very name is the idea of a manifest presence. And so then when you get to the book of John, the gospel of John, that's the whole point. Christ condescends and tabernacles with us. He tabernacles with peace. His presence is here. It's the whole centerpiece.

And he's going to eventually do that through the Holy Spirit by living in the, the bodies of believers. So the entire New Testament teaching that Christ lives in the temples, not built by man's hands, but the ones that he lives in our bodies, that's all like right here in this text. Yeah. And you see that, and we've been in John 14 recently on Unashamed, when he tells them, remember, and it is a, they're worried, he said, I'm going to a place. So he tells us about a place, but he says, but you know the way, you know the way. Then he says, I am the way, the truth and the life. In other words, if you know me, you know what you need to know.

So we were talking about on the Unashamed podcast earlier in John, that he is both place and person all wrapped into one. And which when you think about that is so comforting because you're never alone. I mean, you've always, I mean, we talk on here about it. I mean, this becomes the turning point for Moses because he realizes he's never alone again. I mean, I'm sure he felt like he was all alone. down here in the desert with the camels and the whatnot. Instead, it's like, no, I'm everywhere.

Yeah. And yet I'm near you, which is powerful. Well, I think that's, the idea that God is everywhere and moving, even in places we can't see, I think is evident here at the end of the burning bush, whenever God says, God's anger was kindled against Moses and he said, is there not Aaron your brother, the Levi, I know he can speak well, behold, he's coming out to meet you. I was just about to say that point.

And the point being, Aaron was already on the way. Yeah. Like, at some point, God already told Aaron, hey, head to your brother Moses out there. He's already working it out. We got something to do. I feel like that's just, I thought this was funny because I think that could have been one of the reasons that God was mad at Moses is like Moses kind of spoiled the surprise by nagging.

Like, it's like when you, like, Mary Kay and I've had this fight. before whereas I've like set set up a surprise and it's like oh I know she's going to like this but then she like she wants it and then I'm like no like don't oh we're not going to go we're not going to do that we're not going to go on that trip you know whatever and she's like no I want to go and she's like all right I'm booking tickets and I'm like oh no okay fine I already did it's like it's like it's like it's like you ruin the surprise because you couldn't like believe in me that I actually got it done and like that's what Moses just did like God was like, he even says, Aaron's going to be glad in his heart to see you. Like, God was like,

oh, it's going to be a whole brother reunion. It's going to be this whole surprise. Moses is going to be like, oh, I'll follow you. And then Aaron's going to show up. And Moses can be like, wow, God was already working on this. And then Moses just through complaining, made God ruin the surprise, you know, not made. And you're right. As far as we know, I hadn't thought about that for it. As far as we know, he may not have seen him for 40 years. I don't know. Yeah. When was the last time I even saw him? You know, he's done down here this whole time. Right.

And it's not like he's going back and forth. Because, I mean, he's very afraid about even going back. So that is a big moment that he had planned for it. Yeah, yeah. It was going to be a big reunion. I hadn't thought about that. I see Moses and Aaron is like Mario and Luigi. Yeah.

I know. Aaron's taller. Aaron's Luigi's taller, yeah. For whatever reason. Yeah, Luigi's the spokesman. Moses is like a little, like, little guy. Aaron's Luigi. He's like a bigger taller.

But Aaron was like a good speaker, apparently. So it's kind of like it's weird because typically we think the main guy would be the guy who can speak. Like most churches, right, your main, you lead pastor, that's the guy that's got the silver time. Yeah, and then your executive pastor, he's the behind-the-scenes guy, but it's kind of flipped here. The main guy is Moses who doesn't speak very well. And Aaron's kind of like a sidekick. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because when you look at their heritage as you go forward, you know, through time in the Old Testament,

You know, they both come out of the tribe of Levi, which is the, you know, priesthood tribe. And so, which would you make sense for Aaron because he kind of becomes the father of the priesthood. But you don't think about it. Well, so was Moses. Yeah. And it's just he wasn't in that role, but he had the same. He's more a prophet role. Exactly.

And yet he had that, which again, it makes that, like that Christ typology where you see prophet. He had two roles, even though you never think about him being in the priesthood. But he was. I mean, he ushered in the covenant. I mean, he really was a high priest before they knew about high priest. It's kind of funny because you got a wicked king. Yeah. Pharaoh.

You got a king. You got a prophet. No, it's just, you got a priest. Yep. You got a temple. Yep. You got all the things. And then Christ is like, I'm all of it.

Yeah, I'm all of the perfect. Every bit of it. And he's all. Except the evil king. Except the evil. He's a good king. He's a good king. He's a good king.

Yeah. He's a king of kings. Yeah. So what does you all think about the, another thing he brought. brought out was this idea of the hand. I wanted to mention that before we left this text, because he says in verse 20, I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders I will perform among them. And Dr. Jackson made a big point about this being a typology we're going to see all throughout the entire book was this, this idea of the hand, his hand,

in this case, talking of the hand of God. But then also, as we'll get to in the next chapter, too, even Moses' hand. Remember, it's like that. was one of the signs was the lepers thing and all that. But did that, had you guys thought about that before? I had not really realized how much it comes up. And now every time I read, I say, oh, there's the hand of God. This is my hand. Stretch out my hand. Stretch out my hand. Stretch out my hand. I mean, what did you make of that? Anything pop into your head about that? Yeah, I hadn't thought about it before. Like how many times like that's a repetition? Right. Because the thing that I thought was interesting. I kind of said this a little bit last time, but like for Pharaoh, you know, you're looking

at Moses, who's this stuttering man, and Pharaoh's thinking, because this is kind of how Dr. Jackson worded it, a stuttering man's hand is more powerful than Pharaoh's hand. Here's the about Pharaoh, who views himself as a God, and here's this Hebrew, Moses, who has a stuttering problem, who's more powerful than you. It's like just thinking about, like, what would be going through Pharaoh's head as he's looking at this stuttering man who's more powerful than he is. Right. And yeah, whether it was Pharaoh, whether it was Moses's hand or God's hand, yeah, I hadn't realized.

Well, one of the one thing that struck me about it was the sort of irony of it because you remember Joseph, when he goes into, when he sold as a slave by his brothers, he winds up being elevated to the right hand of, he was the right hand of Pharaoh. Yeah. Remember? I mean, he was like the prime minister. He ran everything.

So he was like, it doesn't necessarily say those words, but that's what he was. And so now we flip this thing around where Moses is the right hand of God. Yeah. To Pharaoh. But now we've all these generations flip around.

And now like as God says, oh, you want a right hand? Yeah, I got you right hand. Well, it's interesting. If you think about that God being the main character, then that kind of makes a lot of sense that it's the hand of God. But he's like Moses is acting in this capacity. You see the same exact thing with the staff.

Because you know, the staff is like, you know, like in the Aladdin, when they like the guy has all the powers and the way that they defeat the evil wizard or sorcerer is they have to, they take that his staff and they break it. and then he loses his powers, right? But in God's world, the power's not in the staff. It's the rod of God. It's the staff of God. So it's like descending with the place that they're meeting at in Exodus 3.

There's nothing really holy about the place. The reason why the place is holy is because it's been transformed by the presence of God. So it's not the place that does the transformation. It's the God's presence transforms the place. And so whatever the vehicle of God's work is is going to be the hand of God. So when you asked that question, I immediately thought of the staff. He said, what's in your hand? This is chapter 4.

He said, a staff. What's the big? It's a staff. Throw it on the ground. So he threw it on the ground. It became a serpent. Then Moses ran from it. But the Lord said that Moses put out your hand and catch it by the tail.

So he put out his hand and he caught it and it became a staff in his hand again. Well, that same staff, if you look at the end, Moses took, and this is at the end of chapter four when he returns to Egypt in verse 20. It says, and Moses took the staff of God in his hand. Oh, by the way, right before that verse 17, he says, and taking your hand the staff, which you shall do all these signs. And you just go through, like, the whole story, this staff is like all over the place.

It's at the parting of the Red Sea. It's like, but it's the staff of God. He said, what's a big, it's a piece of wood. Which, by the way, he had because he was a shepherd. He had, yeah. But without the presence of God to transform this, this staff became the thing that, like, like, what we, you and the fantasy stuff. I mean, I always wanted that, like, that really cool. Oh, it's all about the staff.

You got to have the staff. Yeah. But with God, like, it's not, it's just wood and deal his presence, turns it into the staff of God. Now, so you can start part in Red Seas, you can lay out plagues, you can turn it into a snake. It eats other snakes. I mean, kind of a big deal. Yeah. It's a huge deal.

I want a staff, that. Oh, by the way, yeah, if you want a staff too, you can get a free staff by signing up in this course with us. So you don't get the staff. But you can take this course with us for free at sunashame for hillstale.com. We're in our second series on Exodus. We're going to do David next, I think. So go ahead and download, take the courses absolutely free. They're awesome.

And we're going to unpack it here every Friday on the Unashamed podcast. So one of the things I thought was interesting because, you know, you get this a lot about this part of the narrative. And especially now when he's told him to not only go, he goes back, he goes back to speak to the Israelite leaders. Because remember, he hadn't been there 40 years and it didn't end well when he left. So he's got to convince them that he's from God. And then he's got to, then they've got to go to convince Pharaoh that the people need to go to be able to worship God. So you see it's kind of two-tiered, and I don't know which is probably more daunting to Moses,

because, you know, he's fighting a two-front battle here to get people to believe. He's got to get the original group to believe that he's supposed to be the guy. Then he's got to get them to convince Pharaoh. But this thing comes up a lot about Pharaoh's heart because Dr. Jackson mentions it like there's different, it's like three different ways.

It was a Pharaoh heart as what? The Pharaoh hardness. own heart, the God hardened favor of his heart? Because you hear all the... Yeah, because you hear... Because he brought up the point that, like, Pharaoh viewed himself as a God, which kind of differentiated itself in the hardening of his heart. Yeah.

Which I never thought about, like, viewing it through that lens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've looked into this a lot, because you get to, like, the Book of Romans, for example, there's a lot of New Testament application to this part of the story. And a lot of things. theological implications as well. Good people can disagree. Yeah.

Okay. I think that this is, the Hebrew word here for Hardin is a word called Chazak, which means to strengthen and resolve. So I think what God's saying here, when he says, I'm going to harden favor of his heart so that he won't let you go. And we can get into this later, but he actually tells us later on in Exodus, the reason why he does this. He says, I wanted to basically multiply my signs.

wonders in you. And so I harden your heart for this very purpose so that, I'm paraphrasing this, so that this story of the Exodus would be told for generations. And the way I always interpreted that is that like guys are about to, I mean, we're because the next, the next Friday when we get into this, we're going to talk about the plagues. And when you read these plagues, you're like, man, anybody in their right mind would fold like a cheap suit.

Like anybody. After one, after one. certainly after 10, right? Yeah. But Pharaoh doesn't do that. And I think that the reason why is because God's like, your heart's belligerent. And we see that in the scripture. Pharaoh does harden his own heart, I think four or five times before God it says God

hardened his heart. Right. And I think what's happening here is God's like, I'm going to take your belligerent disobedience. And then what I'm going to do is I'm just going to ratchet it up. I'm going to strengthen you in that resolve. because what I'm about to do, I'm going to be,

I'm going to display such, there's going to be such a display of sovereign power that anybody in their right mind would fold, but I have a bigger purpose. Because in thousands of years from now, there's going to be four guys on a podcast called the Unashamed with Hillsdale on Friday episodes. Tune in, it's free.

Tune in, it's free. Free, but there's the plug. They're going to be doing it for free. and they're going to be talking about this story of the Exodus. This story is going to live on for the rest of humanity because it's going to be the prototype from which I build the whole thing. And so I don't want you to fold.

So I'm going to strengthen you in your own resolve. I think that's what he does in this whole story, is he just ratchets it up and he hard as Fawr's heart. And then a lot of times people will make the, well, you know, he really didn't have a choice because God was doing this to him. But I just, I don't buy it. I mean, I think Pharaoh had a choice

every step of the way to reliance. and repent, and he just would not do it. At one point, he kind of did, and then he asked Moses to petition for him. Well, he lies. He basically says, I repent, but he didn't mean it. I personally think there's a point that he crosses. I don't know what that point is for anybody. It's kind of like the whole blasphemy of the Holy Spirit argument.

Like, there's a point you can get to, according to the scripture, where you just can't return. Not that God won't accept you. You just, you won't return because you blasphemed the Holy Spirit. I think that's probably true in scripture. I know that's very debatable, but I think that Pharaoh, whatever God knows that in his sovereignty,

he knows, like, you're a vessel of wrath, and so I'm going to use you for that. But Christian makes a strong point. I mean, he claimed to be a God, and so it was a battle of gods now. And so, and there's only one. Well, he said, I want to get y'all's thoughts on this. I think I know what you might land,

because we read a lot of the same. stuff but um when he talked about um dr jackson talked about the fallen angels and i kind of think there's like some little eloemes some little guys that are they're really something going on here oh yeah oh 100% yeah totally there yeah i mean i think not even to get into the book of enoch but just to stick with with the canon it talks about daniel like the prince of darkness the different spiritual forces over different areas of land. And I definitely think there's something going on here. One of the reasons I think that is that the magicians or the court people who were under Pharaoh were also doing miracles.

And you could take that as like they were faking it or that I don't think it's really written like that. It seems like they're legitimately doing stuff. Yeah. It doesn't act like this. like they're faking it. It seems like they're actually doing stuff. So you got some power going on on both sides. And what was interesting is there comes a point,

which we'll get into the next podcast, where they couldn't, I mean, the one thing they couldn't do was undo something God it does. They could replicate it. To a point. To a point. They could never undo what he did. Yeah.

Yeah. Because later in the chapters, because Pharaoh says, like, he knows other gods, but then he says, I don't know who you're talking about when he's talking to Moses, talking about the Lord. But yeah, I mean, you look at the plagues. we're going to get their next podcast, but with the snakes, of course, Moses' snake eats

the other snakes. Yeah, yeah. God's like, okay, that's cool, you can do that. And it doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like that. You can sick your snake on a group of snakes. We're out of time, but yeah, the next time, come back. And again, if you're not taking the course,

take the course with us, guys. I mean, it's free. It's amazing. And we're going to dive deeper into the Book of Exodus. Yeah, Moses's snake was like an anaconda. And they were like little garden snakes. One of those little ones that with the stripes on it. You know, it's funny.

That's why they call it a king snake, because the king snake is the king over all other snakes, and they eat other snakes. Right. That's what a king snake does. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to Unashamed for Hillsdale.com and sign up. It's no calls to you.

That's Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. And don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications. to watch every episode.