Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1192 | Jase Responds to Trump’s Heaven Question: We All Fall Short But Jesus is the Way

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

Jase vents his frustration with the media's handling of President Trump’s recent comments about “getting into” heaven. The guys push back on checklist-based faith while acknowledging the balance between godly behavior and trusting in grace. Al and Zach pick their own walk-up songs, though it’s clear they don’t fully grasp the concept. The guys urge anyone with a platform to use it to point people to Jesus, noting that now is the time to be bold as more people seem open to spiritual matters. In this episode: Titus 3, verses 3–7; Romans 3, verse 23; Ephesians 3, verses 8–12; Psalm 51, verse 10; Genesis 1, verse 1; 1 Corinthians 3, verses 10–15; Hebrews 2, verse 11; Hebrews 11, verse 16; Romans 1, verse 16 Chapters: 00:00-04:08 Chick-fil-A comes in at #1 04:09-14:28 The guys pick their “walk up” songs 14:29-18:46 The Bon Jovi church wedding 18:47-27:23 Is Trump getting into Heaven? 27:24-32:17 Charlie Kirk’s Medal of Honor ceremony 32:18-45:01 Good deeds won’t land you in heaven 45:02-54:33 God is the only true creator — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. As always, our pre-conversations lead usually to what we're going to begin with. A couple of things, Jay's. One, we're in our boxes because I'm in Gulf Shores, Zach's, Northern Carolina, Jason, West Monroe. But I noticed in my little frame-up of you, you had some Chick-fil-A bags. And I had Chick-fil-A news that I passed along to you. And for some reason, today I'm a regular fountain of Chick-fil-A news. I saw it on the news yesterday that the longest wait time of the major fast food carriers, and I was not surprised, is Chick-fil-A.

And it was like over seven minutes. It was the only one over seven minutes. Zach claims that is because they're so busy, which I agree, Zach, with that. They got a longer line. Yeah, it's not that there's. The line is longer, so you're going to, but it's not the one thing I didn't point out, seven minutes is not very long. True, especially for as long as the line is. I mean, have you ever been to one that you can just drive up an order?

I've never done it. So there's always people there. I mean, so interesting. Yeah, seven minutes is pretty good. No, there's another place that sells chicken that I won't say their name, but they are the worst service on the planet. Unfortunately, they're a Louisiana company, too. I hate to admit it. But the numbers don't lie.

I'll just say, Chick-fil-A's. I don't know who you're talking about it. I'm not talking about Cains. Cains is good. No, I wouldn't tell my Cains. Okay. If you put a Cains up here, I'd be there every week. I was telling my Popeyes, which I can't eat anymore.

But it's very slow here. I don't know about it. You are validating my point about chicken is on people's minds more than you realize. That's why Jay's, where I go, people. People bring up the red chicken. So here's this interesting that I share with Jace to the audience. They also showed the same poll or the same group of people said, you know, they polled the people, who were they most satisfied with overall and drive-through? And guess who it was?

Chick-fil-A. 98%. They were quite a few points higher than the next one, which I think was Starbucks was number three. I forgot who number two was. So I thought that was interesting that you wait there longer, but you're happier once you're there and you're happier once you leave, apparently. Well, I'll tell you, it's like traffic. If you put me in a traffic jam where there's no motion,

I would rather be moving. And even if it takes me the same amount of time to get from point A to point B, if I'm moving, then I'm okay with that. If you're just stuck. So I think that's the thing about Chick-fil-A is you're always moving. Yeah. They keep the line moving where what you don't want is you don't want to sit there in the line for seven minutes at the window. That would be an unpleasurable experience.

But, Zach, this has to all be proved out by your theory because when you go to an amusement park, you notice many years ago they went to the snake line and now it's everywhere, airports, all of it. because if you're moving, you feel like it's not as long a line as if you were just standing there and you're out of sight just in a long line. That just feels hopeless. But if you're on the move, you're thinking, well, maybe. It probably takes the same time, but it just feels better. This is why I like doing a podcast of you, because y'all are talking about things I've never even thought about.

Well, you do it all the time, Jay's. You just do it when it comes to the Bible. We do it on just a little bit. Well, I'm listening to music. When I'm in a line, which I, I, don't go, you know, very often to a fast food place, but when I do, I'm jamming. So I'm oblivious with the idea of waiting. Which is good.

That's why you're so cheerful. So speaking of music, that was the other thing I was going to bring up is for the last two days, ever since a couple of podcasts ago, which for us has been a couple of days for you. It'll probably be a minute to the audience. But Jace introduced a song on our podcast, not introduced it, but he introduced it into our consciousness, the Tom Petty I Won't Back Down Song is this new walk-up. And I have been singing it for two days, Jay's. I even pulled it off my phone and listened to it one time, just so I could say.

So you have now embedded that song into my brain. I cannot get it out. And it's a great song. So kudos to you. You're welcome. Zach, have you got the tour put together? What are we going to do it? So Zach's got to find out if can we call it that I won't back down tour and use the song

as our walkout. Yeah. Do you have to, is that a, you got to find out. You probably got to pay for it, but, you know, I am from Gainesville, Florida originally. Yeah, you can make a deal, Zay. So I might have some, I might have to just reach into the old roller decks. Trump is not paying for, every time he walks out to YMCA, he's not paying for that, right? I don't know if he is.

I don't know. Well, if he's paying for that. Well, I guess he could afford it, but I don't want to think he's had to not play some stuff because the people who made the song like threw a hissy fit about it so they quit doing it, which is so stupid because when you think about it, I mean, your song is being played to millions

of people watching something, you know, just because you disagree with the guys' politics or whatever. I mean, is that really the way to go? I mean, people do it all the time, but I don't know. It just seems crazy to me. Yeah, I don't know. We had to check on that. So, Zach, since Jace has now got at least one walk-up song, I guess we need to figure out

what would I, I haven't really thought about this much, but what would our walk-up songs be? I mean, what's a song? Do you have one rattling around at the front of mind that would be your song? Jay's, do you have any more songs that you would use for potential walk-up? Just in case the Tom Petty estate people, because he's gone now, but cases people don't want us using this song. Well, I'm kind of weird in this area.

My walk-up songs constantly change, but I kind of have different songs for different categories of life. So if I'm like going to do something, what I deem as manly, you know, I went treasure hunting yesterday. So when I, and it was a long drive. So two parts unknown. It was an adventure. So first song I listened to is I'm a man by Chicago.

now that classic is a classic and if you're unsure of it it just starts off with don't don do do do do then there's a little wika wika it's the greatest drum

I don't know what you call it what do they call it in a band when they do the drum percussion yeah I know that but I mean they call it a you know when they highlight the drums. No, I was thinking it's not solo.

It's like a drum, not roll. I don't know. Drum performance? No, it's just like a, they call it something. There's a catchphrase. I bet you Perky would know. He's our local percussionist. Anyway.

Yeah, it's, there's about a one minute. Just, you feel. like you're in some kind of jungle with just adventure awaiting. So that's that. I'm a man. I do that during dog season several times. If I'm having any kind of problems, you know, with my wife, or because look, marriage is a process that's difficult. You've got to overcome adversity. You know where I'm going with that. So it's like if I ever get mad, if I'm mad, that's when I crank up. Radar love. I'm sensing a theme here on Jason's songs.

That's actually by the band Golden Earring, which is kind of the funniest name ever. And then I have my spiritual walk-up song, which is usually, like I said, Christian songs. But I don't mind a worldly song if it has a Christian foundation or it calls someone to think deeply about God. So that's why I'm on the I won't back down, which kind of goes with Unashamed.

That's why I thought it would be perfect. I like the connection to our whole theme of the podcast. I think that's really, really good. So I gave you three, Al. I'm sure there's a couple more. But you see, I categorize what I'm doing. Yeah. So what's yours?

Zach, you have one? I don't, the only one that just came immediately. to front of bind. And this is one they also play at LSU games. Not necessarily the Garth Brooks songs. I'm not that familiar with those. But it's one called Louisiana Saturday Night by Mel McDaniel from 1980. It's always been one of my faith.

You get down to fiddle. Get down to bow. Kick off your shoes. Throw them in the flow. So that, and in fact, when Dad was on the podcast, we were talking about something.

I'll never forget this. It's been a few years ago. And he said something about a one. eye dog. And I looked at it, but I was like, where are you going there, dad? And he was like, you know, the song. And I'd forgotten that line was in the song because from the front porch, they had a one-eyed dog. But dad remembered it. So I thought, well, this is one of dad's favorite. So that would be one I wouldn't mind walking out to a crowd. I mean, it's nothing spiritual necessarily, just because we're from Louisiana, I suppose.

It brought you home. It was familiar. Yeah, the one that popped in my mind, I never thought about it. I mean, honestly, I like the Tom Petty song. That's a good one, Jace. But the one that popped to my mind was the, what was the Western with Billy the Kid? The Blaze of Glory. Oh, yeah. I'm going down in the Blaze of Glory.

Young Guns. Yeah. That's the song that popped in my head. That's my walk-up song. You're going down in a blaze of a ball. Shot down. Shot down. The blaze of glory.

I think it's a Bon Jovi zone, Zach. It's Bon Jovi. I'm feeling like that's a bit disturbing there, right? I just said, I mean, it popped in my head. That's the one I thought. We need to rebuild you. You're going down in a blaze of glory. We're showing right now, Zach's mindset.

Well, the second one I thought about is called Regulators by Warren G and Nate Dog from when I was in high school. So that popped up too. That wouldn't be appropriate as well. All the things are coming back now from the stuff I used to listen to. I'm like, yeah, that one wouldn't work anymore. It's at this moment. I think that you are missing the point of having a walk-up song. This is supposed to motivate you to great things and to accomplish something that you might be nervous about.

But you're like, hey, I need some. It's stirring the emotions. It's not as important as content, but it's like, you know, when you're, you know, when you hear it in the background, the drumbeat, and let's go. That's why they have a band. Their band is trying to. Jay, I'm not nervous when I walk out in front of a crowd. I'm just saying if you have a football team and the band's over there saying,

before the game starts, let's crank up, I'm going down in a blaze of glory. It's just not, I know, I think we have a failure to communicate here. Yeah, it's not a great motivation. and even the regulator's song is about, you know, that actually, as I said that, but that starts with a line from the movie Young Guns, that whole song. You like the movie Young Guns.

I did like the movie Young Guns. I did, too. It was a good one. But I'll tell you a good one. If you want to get fired up, though, if you just want to get, like, fired up, a great walkout song is Eye of the Tiger. Okay.

Now, that was my point. Now, that would be sufficient, you know. That's what I ran out to at high school football in Trenton, Florida. Trenton Tigers, go Tigers, I had the Tiger, and that was... That's a good one. That's a good one. You know who did that one? Frank Stallone, brother of Sylvester Stallone, for one of the Rocky movies.

Was it Rocky 2? Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. So that's a good choice. Yeah, sounds like that. Living on a prayer, Mon Jovi. Okay.

That's it. You know, Jay's... That was Maddie's. So tell Maddie. That's good. We're living on our brain. Well, listen. And it starts out with that really funky, whoa, whoa.

You know, it starts out with that. So I got a story for that one. And Maddie, you'll love this. So we were at a wedding, and the wedding was actually an old rocker from our church named Spence. And he was married a girl named Alicia. And he's long hair. He kind of looked like Bon Jo. which is kind of funny.

And he was a rocker. He was a guitar player and he was in a band. And so, you know, they came to Christ later. So they had kind of had a pretty good pass, you know. And so they asked Bill Smith to marry him. Well, by this point, Bill was quite a long in years. I'd say he was probably in his late 70, maybe early 70s. So it wasn't that far long.

And he, so it, you know, how everybody has their walk-off song from the wedding. It's always something kind of fun and frolic. or whatever, you know. So that was, that was their, that was their song. So he finishes the wedding. And so when you do a wedding, they all leave, you know, and there wasn't a huge wedding party anyway. So when that song starts out, whoa, whoa. So they all leave. And Bill Smith is just standing up on the podium by himself. And he's kind of, he's, you remember that, Jason? Oh, well, I had the privilege of sharing the gospel with Spence and Elisha. I don't know if you knew that. I didn't know that. Well, Al, I, I,

I felt the same way as Bill Smith when he stood up there during that study. And with my human origin mind, I thought, there's no, because I studied with Alicia first, I was like, she's not going to do this. It was a confrontational. It's quite the study, which is so amazing when you see God changed their lives. It's just awesome. I mean, I was dead wrong. I mean, the gospel can change anybody's heart.

And sometimes you've got to have a confrontational study. I mean, I look back on it and smile about it now, but I thought, this is going to be rough. Well, you know what's funny, Jay's? We talk all the time about how this thing works in people's lives, and you never know where you fit into the program. I didn't know you were the one that studied with them. You probably didn't know when I was preaching. down in Allah, which is about an hour south of West Monroe. I was young. I was in school. I preached there kind of through my preaching school and my internship. And this woman who was there was,

was she wanted me to meet her nephew and she invited him to church. He wouldn't come to church. It was him and another guy in his band. But she asked if I'd come eat lunch at their house after I preached one Sunday. And I said, yeah, and he was there. I guess it was Spence Young. Now, at this time, he was fully in the world. I mean, he was not. to me, but he was not interested, but it so reminded me of dad with that first time with Smith, because I was trying to, like, you know, just befriending him a little bit, talk to him a little bit about Jesus. He wasn't interested, but you never, you know, sometimes you plant seeds, sometimes you water, sometimes you're, you know, in the process. But I had no idea, you and I both had

been involved early before his conversion. And then Smith was the one that married him, which was interesting. Yeah, that was a funny, well, it was a good memory. I remember that. I felt sorry for Bill, because I was like, and he kind of moved a couple times. He tried to like get into it, but he's just an old man trying to keep the rhythm. But, you know, I've been up there before too, and it's the most awkward place in the world to be standing there for the two minutes while that song plays, and everybody's looking at you waiting for you just to, you know, let us go. Well, to Maddie's point, that song was used in a marriage right down the street as their walk-in song.

and walk out which I thought was kind of awesome so I guess unashamed nation you can let us know in whatever ways you do some good walk-up songs maybe can give us some ideas

well I think it proves after listening to y'all's responses on how different you know humans think about things but you know what's been in the news lately I wanted to bring this up unless y'all just want to head off into John 18

no go ahead well President Trump had made a comment about, and this was a few weeks ago, because if something spiritual comes up, I'm attentive. And he had talked about ending these wars, and he's like, you know, this will probably put me into heaven. Well, all the religious people, you know, were like, oh, good grief.

How could you say that? You know, you can't get to heaven by any kind of act that you do or making the world a safer place. Well, then just a few days ago, he was asked, now that this conflict with Israel and Gaza's over and all that, there was a question asked by somebody when he was on a plane. It was like, so now that that's happened, you know, if you can figure out a way to end the Russian-Ukrainian war,

would that get you into heaven? Well, his response this time was the complete opposite. Yeah. He was like, oh, no, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to heaven. Yeah. So something along those lines. He said, I'm pretty sure there's nothing that'll get me to heaven. Yeah, that's what he said.

And he's like, I mean, maybe I'm living in heaven now on this plane, which I thought of Zach. You know, it's like, oh, he's kind of given the theory of heaven now and maybe later. not yet. But it was so interesting, the reason I'm bringing this up, because when that happened, as soon as I got home, which was a couple days ago, Missy brought it up.

She's like, oh, these media people trying to break down the spiritual aspects of what Trump said. She said, it's literally ridiculous. And she played me a couple because they don't, they're like what is this mean they're having pastors on the panel trying to explain now is this a good thing or a bad thing and uh which political ramifications of a guy saying he's not sure if he's going to make

it or not i love it but the point i wanted to make it's just like we just asked what our walk-up song was and after y'all gave me yours i thought i don't think they understand the concept of walk-up song that's what i was thinking about it you my family you know and i'm like well and i'm like well And this is the same thing the religious world does. He brings up heaven, and then there's like 170 different people coming up trying to figure out, no, what did he mean by heaven? Was he talking about heaven and earth, or was he talking about, you know, how was Israel involved? And I feel like that's the frustration because the two clips she showed me, one guy had a pastor on,

and he was asking him, like, you know, what did he mean by this? that because obviously the commentator had no idea he was he and he was kind of making fun of himself saying i mean i've read the bible but i mean what how does this work but the pastor kept saying well i wish i could i could talk to trump and and he said i do think it was an act of humility and say and and he's technically right you know he was he was kind of saying yeah we you can't make it to heaven based on just how you perform him on earth, which was true. And he's like, but I would love to talk to Trump further.

And so he asked him another question. And he said the same thing. And I'm like, it just made me so agitated because I thought, we'll tell the audience what you would tell him. Right? You're in front of a mic. You have a media person from the world saying, what does this mean? And you're not telling us what you would tell him.

He just kept saying, I wish I could talk to him. And it made me think that, I just think, as the church, we should be declaring that. When you have those opportunities, you declare that. But it's almost like we have this separation of church and state. Oh, I'm on a media outlet, so I'm not going to give you the details, but I wish I could tell him what the details are. And meanwhile, I'm like, this is the moment. Let's talk about how do you get to heaven? and just give a simple little blurb.

So I was frustrated with that one. The other one I remember who it was. My wife listens to Megan Kelly sometimes, even though she does have a bit of a potty mouth, so if you go there. But she talks about politics. But she had a guest on, and they were discussing the same thing. And so the woman kind of said a similar thing. Well, it does show his humility, and there's some God consciousness.

And she kind of went to every. since he got shot in the ear, the attempted assassination, she's like, there seems to be some kind of seriousness about, remember when he said, you know, I believe God saved me for a purpose. He definitely feels, Jason, a sense of destiny since that happened. I'm not, he's definitely having an out loud struggle on what that means, even though we know he's heard the gospel because dad shared it with him. But at the same time, he's trying to figure that out. But he's doing it out loud, which is interesting.

Yeah. So anyway, she – but then she was real vague on – I'm not sure what he thinks about faith and the Bible and heaven and God. And so it goes back to Megan Kelly, and she's like, oh, well, he's in. I mean, I'm a lawyer. I'm just telling you right now. I mean, he solved eight wars. If he's not in, nobody's in. And Missy's like, can you believe?

this. What? All of a sudden, you're a lawyer, so you're qualified. And so in both cases, you know, I was frustrated

because I was like, we need to start doing our job better here. Well, you notice there's a little bit of truth in everything that they were saying.

It's just not, like her, Megan Kelly's point, if that's what she said, I have to take your word for it. Trust me, that's what she said. I listen to it. Yeah,

that's what she said. She's like, I'm a lawyer, looking what he's done, if he's not in, nobody's going to make it. Well, Romans 3 basically says that nobody's in. You're right. Everybody has fallen short of the glory of God. All of us will you fall equally condemned. I don't know if you guys saw it yesterday, but to amplify what Jay's has already said, did y'all watch, there was a whole, Fox carried the whole Charlie Kirk receiving the presidential Medal of Honor.

yesterday. And I watched the whole thing. I just happened to be watching the news at the time because it happened right at the like five o'clock hour. And it was amazing. Trump said some, and somebody wrote them, obviously for him, but said some beautiful things about heaven and God. And of course, all in relationship to Charlie. You know, and he, it was funny is that he had full assurance that Charlie was in heaven just based on what he was hearing from other people and said that out loud. But then Jay's talking about people who understand they got a microphone. Of course, his wife, Erica, who's been now, who's now taken over Turning Point, she received the award on his behalf. And again, just completely knocks it out of the park in her speech. And, of course, Trump is standing behind her. And he's just, it's kind of funny because she's very personal about Charlie. She tells a lot of really, because yesterday was his birthday when they honored him. It was also a day of observance for him, which I thought was a neat thing. So she was very appreciative, and she told Trump that, you know,

I've been trying to get Charlie the right gift, the perfect gift for seven and a half years. I couldn't ever figure it out. And now that he's crossed over to heaven, which is what she said, she said, you've given him the perfect gift because his whole life was about freedom. But I just, I was incredibly moved to tears a couple of times. But she took the opportunity to talk about Jesus, talk about the gospel. Of course, she talked a lot about her husband. But she talked a lot about freedom in relationship. And so to do it in that context when you had a captivated audience, not just the ones there, but all of us who were watching and everywhere around the world, I mean, I just thought she understands that this is a moment to advance and not just their political organization, but to advance the gospel.

I mean, she put them together. She talked about him giving his testimony all around the country and that every time he did that, he shared the gospel of Jesus. And she used the exact same languaging we do when we talk about the Bible and we talk about Jesus. And so when Trump's standing right behind her. So I just thought it was another opportunity to advance what we're doing. And she stepped through. And I mean, she shined bright. It was really, really really good.

Well, my point, though, that I was making, Zach, even in the Megan Kelly, well, Megan Kelly professes unashamedly to be a believer. in Jesus. I mean, I think she's some form of the Catholic wing. I think she's Roman Catholic. Yeah. But, I mean, at times it's frustrating because the reason I don't listen to her podcast about the new, I mean, the main reason is like, I don't, I cannot stand it if you're making four letter words every other word.

You know, I just, I'm out on that. But my other point is not to do the same thing. that the person she was interviewing, or the other interview that I'll watch. I want to read this Titus 3 because I thought, you know, there are some little paragraphs that just pretty much sum up when I hear like this battle of thinking, oh, is he going to go to heaven based on, you know, doing this or that? And I wanted to read this.

This is Titus 3, verse 3. At one time, we were foolish, disobedient. deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another, which I'll stop reading here and just say, pretty much sums up human beings at some point in their life, to Zach's point on the Romans 3. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,

he saved us, not because of righteous things, we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ, our Savior, so that having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. Oh, that's good. That is good.

I mean, I think that's the, to me, that's the, that's the hard thing that when you're talking with somebody that doesn't understand that, that they, you have to draw them into the inevitable conclusion of their own situation. And that, and sometimes those people that are Christians, maybe they grew up in a Christian home and grew up in the church, but, but they were taught some kind of legalistic works based salvation and they just haven't really experienced the grace of God. But I think when you really push into people and you ask them questions like, like, but at the end of the day when you put your head on your pillow, you kind of know

you're not good enough, no matter what you've done, because everybody feels, I think everybody feels on some level a degree of shame and guilt, right? I mean, I think everybody has that thing in them. And if we're going to somehow get to heaven, basically, on what we do, I think when we're honest with ourselves, we really are at that conclusion of Romans 3 that the whole, everybody's just falling short of his glory. And if we think that we're good enough to be in the presence of God, I would argue that our problem is that we don't have a high enough view of God. We've had to bring him down so that we can actually, oh,

yeah, we're not that bad. When you see how good he is, how holy he is, how mighty he is, nobody can stand before him. Nobody can stand before him and say, look at all the good stuff I've done. That's why Francis Schaefer used the line that I love. He says we actually raised the empty hands of faith. You don't bring anything to the table at all. And I think it was about you mentioned Romans 3.

You know, there's no unrighteous, not even one, that somehow we could claim it was possible for us. And so, you know, even if somehow we thought we could have the ledger, right? And we kind of grew up in a background. that there's like a ledger on one side is all the bad things you've done on the other sides of good things. If that line is long enough on the good side and if you ask forgiveness for sins, the last second before you crossed over, you might make it.

But that's a far cry from what we see in the New Testament. But at the same time, I think that the fact that our president is like publicly questioning his salvation or wonder of it. I think a lot of that's tied into Jason's right. It was back to when he was shot. Some of that has come forward, I think, into the Charlie Kirk persona, because now, I mean, look at the funeral they had. He's surrounded by a lot of people we know who are very godly people, singing amazing worship songs. And all of a sudden, you're immersed into a world where you see the spirit of God through people. And it's intriguing, especially when you want to how you fit into the overall destiny.

I do want to say one thing, Jay, says the thing was interesting that from the press side of things, I think they've been so, of course, they hate Trump for the most part, but outside of that, just saying just presidents and press, they've been for so many years having so many, whether they're conservative or liberal or somewhere in between,

presidents that won't really tell you what they're thinking, but only speak and signal that they're just almost conditioned to think that everything is like some sort of, of sinister or positive symboling going on. And they're not used to a guy who's just publicly out loud questions things, including his own salvation and heart. And they're like, what does it mean? It's like Trump's just saying, yeah, you know, that's the way I feel today.

But they've never been around a guy that's been that open as the president of the United States. I think there's don't want to be. Yeah, they all, I mean, because to your point out, they're always, they're like, boy, he's just arrogant. and all this. Well, that was like the biggest moment of humility that I've ever watched. He was like, no, I'm not making it. There's nothing I can do. I mean, it's over.

It was strange to listen to. So at least they should have given him some credit for that. Because that was very, very humble. And I think deep down, I think we all have to think that. You're just not going to be able to earn that or make up for your past mistakes, which is why I read the Titus 3. I mean, I had a similar issue because it is frustrating with this. I think the problem is we're so splintered under the banner of Christianity. It's like if you don't say the right catchphrases particular to a certain group, well, then that's deemed you didn't handle that.

correctly. And so people in the moment are not sure what to say, so they don't say anything. Kind of to Zach's point about, yeah, there's nothing you can do, but then there's groups that they're like, well, we're not going to do anything then. Like post being saved, it's like, well, there's nothing to do anyway. So, I mean, he did it all. And now I'm just going to sit here and wait, which would be going so far down that road where you've lost the whole purpose of, you're going. of why God did save you and create you. You know, what did He create you to do now, you know, newly created? So, and I think that's a whole section of the Bible that's just not talked about much.

Well, it's a quality. If we understand that eternal life, it's a quality of life in addition to quantity, but it's a quality, it's a type of life in Christ, in relationship with him. That actually is the good life. And so it's a really, is a misunderstanding of that, that we think somehow that I do the right things so that I can go to the vacation spot called heaven. Yeah, right, right. That's the nice resort that we all get to end up at.

That's a good. The eternal spot. We're laughing, but sadly, I mean, Zach, it's, I mean, that's why we got into a club-type atmosphere. You meet once a week, you know, you put your time in. Yeah. Because even that came up, you know, you had. in church in these discussions. I mean, he goes to church.

He's generous. I mean, you're going to make it. I mean, you know, you've ended eight wars. You're in. You're good. That was kind of the basis of... Yeah, so you get the big prize at the end, but I love John Piper's...

He wrote a book called God is the prize. And so the argument he was making is that... I thought there's no... Heaven is heaven because that's where God's at. Like, God is the actual prize himself, So when you think about like a relationship, you'd be, if you're in a relationship with somebody, you wouldn't say, I mean, I don't, I mean, like with your wife. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I'm, you know, I don't know if we're actually in a relationship.

Like, you wouldn't, you wouldn't phrase it like that. You know, I mean, like, if you love her and that, and that's like, that's, if the prize is the relationship, then it's not a destination that you're getting to. I think that's the hard thing for us to understand. It's not a destination necessarily that we're getting to. It's a quality of life that we're having in Christ, which is it's through Christ that we actually get into the relationship with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

And we get to partake of his divine nature. That's the prize is himself. And I think it's a total paradigm. ship, but we want to reduce it to something that's more like, okay, what do I got to do to get to the thing? And that's not really what the gospel is. Well, that's a great illustration because if you think about it, you lived your life, your entire marriage, and for Lisa and I now, we've now went past 40 years, but if the whole goal was just to stay married, just so we could say, all right, we get to hire all we get and we stay married, man, we made it because we

stay married. No, what was the journey like? I mean, you could have a journey and stay married and it was the worst possible example of what a marriage should look like, or you could totally be in love with each other and serve each other and be submissive to one another and everything that you do and think of the other's needs before yourself and have an incredible run and stay married. I mean, is staying married a goal? Yes. But is that the only goal? No, that's just that that's only the end results of what God has designed us to be, and that's oneness. Well, you guys all have grandkids now, so I don't yet, but I'm imagining that it's a little bit like you had these moments when you're, I don't know, Jay's, when you're in

Montana and you got your wife there, you have all your kids there, you got the grandkids running around, and you're like, you know, this is the life that we built together. And it's got to feel a little bit like a little taste of heaven, right? It's got to be a little bit of taste of, but it's the whole thing. thing. It's not, it's not that just we got to a vacation spot. It's that, man, we're here with our people in our relationship and you're looking around at your legacy and you're, the new ones coming up. I mean, you're proud of your kids. It's like, it's like all of that. Like, I think that's a really good picture of what it means when we say like life in Christ

because it's a relational life that expresses itself in the overflow of more life. And so you see it in the family more than probably anything else. I thought of a good point here. I was studying, I don't know, a couple days ago, and went down a rabbit hole. I won't go down the rabbit hole. But what I didn't know is the Hebrew word for create. Maybe I should look up what that word is.

Bahra. Bahra. Do you know that I was listening to some Hebrew scholar and that what's unique about that when it's used in the Old Testament is that God is always the subject. Every time. It's like 50 out of 50. It's used 50 times. And you say, well, what does that have to do?

What we're talking about? Well, think of like Psalm 51, which is a famous verse when, you know, David after his sin, it says, creating me, 5110, a pure heart. heart, oh God, and renew a stepfast spirit with me. And so you see my point here. Only God is the creator. And so when you think, oh, I'm doing this and that to make it, I mean, ultimately, that didn't happen by accident where that word is used.

Wow, the word, the word. Go ahead. In Genesis 1, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. word, and the way you say it got to, like with the back of your throat, it's like a Bahra, but it's B-A-R-A, but the word actually means to create out of nothing. Yeah. Yeah, I noticed that too. He made that point, same point, which you know what the implications of that is?

It's like, think about when it said, so God created them male and female, he created them. Well, think of our current problem in our culture, where all of a sudden humans are like, well, I'm just going to be whatever I'm going to be. I'm going to create a new me as far as male or female. A new gender, a new whatever. So it's like, oh, now I get why in the Hebrew language, that word Bahra, every time God is the subject. because, no, you need to find a place in your mind that says, this is the way I'm made and deal with that, the fact of that, the reality of that. Well, here's the interesting thing is, is that we do create, humans create,

but the way we create is out of the stuff that's already been created. And so we don't create out of nothing. We create out of something. So God creates out of nothing. and then we take the stuff that God made, God created the forest, the wood, the trees. Well, guess what? I can go chop a tree down, and I can make a table out of a tree. But I have to take the stuff that's been made.

I can't just say, okay, let's just construct something here with no material, and then all of a sudden, boom, we have something. We have matter. That's not how we create. So we're co-creators. We have dominion. We are vice regents. We are to cultivate the earth.

But that's the thing. our creation is always contingent upon the stuff that God's already created. When God creates, he doesn't need anything, he doesn't need any material, that he's no matter, energy, he just says, boom, his word creates. The creation by his word, all things are created through him, for him, by him, talking about Jesus, his word. And so it's a different type of creation. And the same thing applies whenever you see the creation of our eternal life

and the Holy Spirit within us, like God, God makes it happen. He renews us. I want to read a passage. I'm so glad you brought that up because that same word, well, the Greek version of it, is in this text. But this is one of my favorites. But it really fits perfectly into the narrative of this discussion about how we view our relationship with God and how we view our salvation. Paul is talking here in Ephesians 3 and verse 8.

He says, this grace was given me, Paul, to preach to the Jesus. Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God who created, there's the Greek word back to Bahra, who created all things. Now listen to this. His intent was that now, where he was in the first century through the church, the manifold wisdom of God, this creator, should be made known to the. the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms.

And I thought it was interesting because we're talking about the rulers in the earthly realms in the year 2025. But this even goes beyond earth to all beings, according to his eternal purpose, which he accomplished, and here's how you know, in Christ Jesus, our Lord, in him, and through faith in him, how do we approach Him? We may approach God with freedom and confidence. So that's what we're talking about is people not having confidence to know because they really haven't figured out yet how Christ has played his role into this whole picture and into our lives. And so I just love that passage because it shows, Jay, something you said earlier in the podcast, that our platform is to make that known.

And we're making it known in the first entry, it was to those in the heavenly realms because now they understand. exactly what God's design for all of the cosmos was, but now we're still making it known to everyone, including the earthly rulers or anybody else that's willing to listen or question it in their own lives. Well, the verse that came to my mind since we're talking about the context of, you know, God being the ultimate creator and then what we build or create, in quotation marks, that's 1st Corinthians 310 and following. this is interesting, I think, based on what we've been talking about.

By the grace, God has given me, which kind of similarly to what I've had Titus 3. This is where all this being a new creation comes from through Jesus. I laid a foundation as an expert builder and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. You're like, what does he mean here? for no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ? I mean, it's just a blanket phrase. Whatever you're going to build on, if you want to have success, the foundation has to be Jesus.

And you're like, well, why? Well, he took our sin. He defeated the powers. He overcame death. You could list a lot of things. Yes. Verse 12, if any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, his work will be shown for what it is because the day will bring it to light.

It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. Well, now we're back into this heaven language. 15. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only is one escaping through the flames. So my point is, if it can burn up, it's not that important. I love it.

If what you're building and what you're basing, your faith, you're going to heaven, whatever phrase you want to use, if it'll burn up, you better watch. it. Well, what I would like, my message to the president who, you know, I have support and love in many ways and do think he was destined to be our president for sure is three things. One is we can be unashamed of the gospel, Romans 116, which is our theme verse, because of Hebrews 211, 11, Jesus is not ashamed to call us family, brothers and sisters. And because of Hebrews 1116, we long for something better, even while we're here. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called our God.

So you can live an unashamed life, and you can have confidence as you approach, but it can only be done through Jesus Christ as the Holy Spirit lives through you. So to him or anybody else, I would say that's the key to knowing one way or the other. So anyway, that's our message today from Unashamed. So we'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube

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