Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1194 | John Luke Robertson Endures a Plague of His Own & Exodus Confirms Demonic Forces

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

Al, Zach, John Luke, and Christian explore the demonic powers revealed in Exodus as the plagues close in on Pharaoh’s Egypt. Al and Zach recall their visit to Auschwitz, where they both felt a chilling, decades-old evil that seemed to confirm the spiritual realities Scripture describes. Back home, John Luke faces his own “plague of biblical proportions,” though his version is admittedly more mundane than the ones that befell Egypt. The guys reflect on why God revealed His name as Yahweh, what that name means for believers today, and how our hearts must be positioned before we can truly enter His presence. In this episode: Exodus 5–10; Exodus 6, verses 1–7; Exodus 7, verse 17; Exodus 8 (select); Genesis 15, verses 9–17; Acts 17, verse 31; Ephesians 6, verse 12 Today's conversation is about lesson 3 of The Exodus Story taught by Hillsdale Professor Justin Jackson. Take the course with us at no cost to you! Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/⁠ More about The Exodus Story: Explore God’s mercy as he leads Israel out of slavery in Egypt. Exodus is a central narrative of the Bible. It recounts the moment that God reclaims Israel as his people, rescues them from slavery in Egypt, and establishes the Ten Commandments to guide their moral and religious freedom as an independent society. In “The Exodus Story,” Professor of English Justin Jackson picks up the biblical narrative where his course on Genesis ended. Join Professor Jackson in learning about the nature of God’s mercy, human freedom, and the relationship between the divine and man. Enroll today to discover the beauty of God reclaiming the Israelites through his mercy and love in “The Exodus Story.” Sign up at http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters: 00:00-01:00 Opening prayer 01:00-06:10 What kept John Luke up all night 06:11-07:27 Phil’s reaction to podcast banter07:28-10:45 Inside a podcast hosts’s mind 10:46-15:29 Moses is afraid of his own people 15:30-19:10 Moses & the Titanic? 19:11-26:29 Egyptian magicians could have been aliens 26:30-36:18 The Bible says other gods are real36:19-39:39 Al & Zach encounter a real presence of evil39:40-45:41 Evil’s encroachment process spelled out 45:42-49:57 God’s presence can be dangerous — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Father God, we love you, Lord, and we're thankful that we get to dive into your scripture here. This story of Exodus is just so powerful for us, God. We're in it, Lord, even though this is a story that happened thousands of years ago. We're in it. But God, at this time, we are victorious, Lord. We have been delivered, Lord. We are covered by the finished work of Jesus Christ. So I just pray you'll speak through us, God, as we talk about this today, Lord.

and anybody that's going to listen to this, we just are praying, God, that you would already go before us and be cultivating the hearts of the thousands of people that will hear this, that will be a part of this, that are taking this course with us, that may see a social media clip. God, it would spark your curiosity for life in your kingdom, Lord, and that people would come to know how much you love them

and how much you desire to live and dwell with your people. So we ask this in the name of Jesus. Amen. I am unashamed. What about you? So I'm running on about two hours of sleep. You are right now? I slept from 2 a.m. to 4 a.m. last night. What was the problem?

He was studying Exodus so much. I was studying Exodus. He was so into it. That was part of the problem. Well, this is our art. Let me just say this before you tell us what's going on, but this is the Unashamed with Hillsdale, which the courses are free. you're taking them at 2 to 4 in the morning

or not, no, you're taking them up till 2. I was taking them from 1 to 2 and then from 4 to 5. When you're young dads, it's so funny, you know, they have to, you know, I'm like, I just clear everybody out of my house. The price is free, but it did cost you. It cost you something.

So although we're telling you, you can go subscribe to the course at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com, it's free except on night's like last night. So you were just porn and I'm so proud of you, man. Yeah, no, that actually wasn't there. I ran through this pretty quick. Then...

So you weren't in the heart of Exodus. No, I wasn't in the heart of Exodus. But you were in Exxas. No, I was in the Plegs. What's even worse was it wasn't even the kids. It was the dogs. Oh, my God. So first, to preface, my dog, Timber, has cancer.

He's got a tennis ball-sized tumor on his neck. Oh, no. Which is causing... which he's mostly fine except for he has explosive watery diarrhea. And that combined with the Walmart delivery came in. Mary Kate brings it all in the house, but she doesn't put it up. So the dogs just tore into that.

Like food. Oh, so they ate like four chocolate bars, like half a raw chicken. Like they like got into the flour, like everything. So they were really. good about telling me when they need to go out. Yeah. And timber had explosive just through a, like, I mean, as, as. It sounds like a flag.

It was as a play. I know. It was a screen door. I was about to say the play. I was about to say it from literally probably 10 p.m. until 7 a.m. Oh, my. And he wouldn't. You're like cleaning up after him.

No, just taking them out. And that was, about every 30 minutes, he'd come in. I'd be laying in the bed. He'd come in, he'd lick me. He'd get in it. We'd walk outside. Just, I mean, power washer, outside. We'd come back in, go back to sleep, 15, 30 minutes later.

I do, but she's never had vertical diarrhea. Yeah. Yeah. You got a bunch of dogs. I don't do you. I just don't do inside dogs, period. That's why, because I don't have to. Our dog is like, she's like seven pounds.

She's like a little fluffy multi-like a little... Yeah, she's really cute. Yeah. Well, how big... What is it? He's like... What kind of dog is he? He's a half Australian Shepherd and Shepherd, half poodle.

Timber's like medium size. He's like medium. He's like... A shepherd doodle. He was 30 pounds. Everything is a doodle. Yeah. It's a hypo-hypo-allergenic.

Yeah. He was 30 pounds, but now he's like 12 pounds. Because of his cancer. That's a good shit. Yeah. Well, I am. He had a diarrhea. That's all the Walmart stuff.

That's what I'm saying. The old Walmart stuff. Yeah. It's such a next-generation situation because there's so much of that I can't even relate to. The Walmart deliveries, I mean, just the things you talk. Well, y'all don't do inside dogs. No. You got dogs.

We know you got dogs. They're all outside. We hear of all dogs. We're here and bargain every day. Because my neighbors are like just dogs and kids. They destroy things. And if my dogs had explosive diarrhea, I just would never know. You can make the movie pets about my neighborhood.

I mean, I tip my hat to you, John. Like, you're a compassionate man. You love animals, and that's good, you know. Well, my other option would be just cleaning up from the inside of the house. No, you don't want to do it. At least it was outside. At least he was waking me up. Well, I feel better about my night now.

You've made me feel better. See, sometimes hearing the lament of others makes you feel better. It does. I feel, I feel good. That encouraged me. Your misery encouraged me. See, we're like Joe's friends. Yeah.

I was going to say, what did you send? Bill Dad, so far. I really thought that. What did you do wrong? Yeah, what did you do wrong? I was, I don't know. I was cursing God all night, though. I was like, why, God, why?

Why have you put me through these afflictions? We actually are in the place. Mary Kate said, curse God and died. Yeah. What have you done? Joe Blu. Oh, yeah, I didn't curse God. Yeah.

No, I was questioning or not cursing. Not cursing the questioning God, which, you know, I had to happen in Egypt. The Israelites were in the plagues now. It's actually a perfect lead in to the other. Well, they got a chin on my inner, Phil. We used to do, we'd get in these cold opens when Phil was on the podcast, and he would not participate in them. Like, he would just sit there. And we're like, cigar story.

Oh, we're telling stories. He's just staring. You know, we're, we're, um, we're, we're, funny stories. And I'm saying like gold. And we're all dying laughing. Phil's a hey, boy, it's on that note,

John 17, and he was just like go straight in the scripture. He didn't like it. Sometime when it went too long, he said, hey, is Saturday Night Live over? I mean,

can we get to? One of my favorite ones was when Phil goes, Jay's had this whole bit called DED. Was that it? Don't ever do. And it basically was like,

if you ever see me in public don't like but it like the way it came across was like it was it didn't come it it didn't hit well yeah it feels just sitting there jace is doing this whole thing and feels like well jace well i want to tell you about this right here no man should think more highly of himself he just gives him the sharp scripture rebuke you know as the way of getting out of the same so funny we've made me an hour lap and jays well i didn't come i well i wasn't that wasn't what i was talking about you missed all that whole thing.

Well, we're in Exodus. So we're back at the Hillsdale courses. We did the first two, which is lecture one, lecture two. Now we're going to combine, and this one, we're going to actually combine lectures three and four because they're both on. Yeah, the plagues. So this will be like a lot of material, but we're going to go through. We're not going to read all five chapters, but it's essentially Exodus if you're following

along and taking the course with us. this will correspond to lecture three and four, which I think is chapters five through ten. Yeah, something like that. Which is, yeah, there's a lot here. I mean, that's why probably you were thinking about John Luke, you were thinking about these plagues. You're like, wow.

You got to experience a little plague last day. Yeah, I was like, oh, wow, this is relatable. At least the one thing that kept me going last night was thinking, this will be a great cold open tomorrow. You're starting to think like a podcast As I was now, John Luke You couldn't reverse the plug, though It is weird

You couldn't reverse it You could have reproduced it Well, I was just like I used in the last episode I'm always looking I saw that burning couch That was being consumed In the Middle West Monroe

Yeah And it was like a blazing fire I thought burning bush A podcast story We are in the word In the word Jace actually takes He has a thing he carries around with him

And makes notes of his everyday Because he is like, thinks of himself in a Job-like situation, because everything that happens to him is the worst thing that's ever happened to any human in the history of humanity. Yeah. I mean, and so he takes notes of it. And literally, he's a cold open machine because we'll sit down and we got four podcasts that he's like, oh, I got it covered for all of them. And we're like, okay.

And sometimes the whole podcast is his laments, you know. And for the most part, people have. They like that we got more interaction here, although I got accused of being the new Jays of talking too much. I did. They said, Zach talks too much in the podcast. They didn't let the other guys talk. You got accused for not earning your spot in the Robertson family,

but there was pushback on that. People like, yes, he has. And I think you got... Stay tuned for season two. Stay two. Season two is being called... I'll never get... The emergence of Christian.

It's like Christians coming out. But for the most part, I think... You guys have received this well. And yeah, it's really encouraging to see how many people have signed up to this course. It's crazy. There's a lot of our audiences is taking this. There's thousands of people that have signed up for these courses, so they're taking them with us. So that's really, really cool.

And in all seriousness, that's what this is about. I mean, studying the Bible, and we talked about this, and we told, you know, when Dr. Jackson was here, we told him that it's a living, breathing, active. document letter, love letter, I guess is what I call it. And so every time you go back and you dedicate time to it, you're going to learn and you're going to be challenged and you're going to grow. So we're glad you guys are coming along for the journey with us because I'm learning a lot, which is really good.

Well, so we're entering into the scene where Moses now, he's coming back into Egypt and he meets up with Tharo and he gives him that famous. But first he has to, first, Zach, he's got to meet with his own people. Yeah, true. Which, because you think about it, for him, it's 80 years, you know. What were you going to say? What was it? No, I was just going to set up the text that he's going in to basically make that famous line to let my people go to Pharaoh.

But, yeah, he had to go to his own people first, which is, I mean, you think about intimidating. Yeah. I mean, because last time he tried to lead people in Israel that didn't go so well. They were like, you're the guy that, like, no, we know who you are. You're the guy that murder that guy. John Lowe was talking about this before he came on air, that he was probably more fearful about that initially. Because you remember he was raised to Egyptian.

And so that idea, I mean, you know how it is. I thought about it. You know, we discovered or actually Phyllis discovered us. And so she's 44 years old, which is similar to Moses' age when all this started for him was at 40. And she came here and went to church at WFR. to hear dad speak. And now she's pretty convinced

this is her dad, but we know nothing about this. And so she's like approaching this, but she's so scared, like she's out in the parking lot and won't get out of the car at first. And Tony goes in, and then he comes back out.

And so just, I mean, imagine the drama of all that. That's just for her to try to maybe meet us, maybe. And so she's so fearful in that. I don't know if she's fearful of rejection. I don't know what exactly the fear was. But I've always thought about that in relationship to this text because you see this like, this is your family.

This is your people. And yet at the same time, you're so distant because you don't know. And so you're trying to bridge that gap. And so she never gets to dad. She only gets to Jace, who for whatever reason somebody's insane put him in charge of a church service, but they did. And so he was in charge that day, and he was kind of running things. And dad spoke. And she hands him the letter.

the now famous letter that... But never told him. But never said, like, I might be here. She's just like, you know, could you get this to your dad? It's just really important. And, of course, Jay's like, everybody else that comes along and hands up and says, yeah, sure, it and slides it in the Bible. And that's the end of the story.

And so then it took, you know, weeks before we finally discover. But that trepidation, that fear. So I get it. Like... Going to your own people. Your own people. I mean, that's what he's doing. I mean, that's how he starts this.

So he's got like this looming thing he has to deal with. But first, he's got to get the people on. Right. And the last reaction we see of Moses and his people, they reject him. Because he kills the Egyptian thinking, oh, I'm going to, like, save these people. You know, he's like, I'm coming into my own. And then they make fun of them.

What are you going to kill us too? You're going to kill us too. There's not only the fear. And then he runs. There's the precedent of rejection. Exactly. Yeah. Well, and also, is it not foreshadowing what's going to hide?

These people, I mean, let's about. You're talking about how good people to lead because every step becomes this like fearful, you know, and of course we're looking ahead, but I mean, they are going to be a vein of his existence, you know. Yeah, I want to say these people, but it's actually, it's our story. Well, that's why it goes back and forth. Your people, my people, those people, this people, it's like, I mean, wherever you are in the moment is the level of frustration.

I can't, every time I get into a study in Exodus, I think about all my years of ministry because you love people. It's why you do this. It's why we do this podcast. But then people are very difficult because we're messy. We have our moments. Well,

it's one of the things about covenant theology that I do like is that it's, you know, I know it gets a bad rap from some people, but I'm a believer in covenant theology, mainly because when you read this story,

you realize that there's a real issue with humanity. Yeah. A belligerent disobedience over and over again. So if the covenant, if the covenant is dependent on my faithfulness or humans, the faithfulness of humanity, then we don't have a chance. And I think the big story in Exodus and the whole Bible for that matter is that the covenant of God does not depend on the faithfulness of man. It depends on the faithfulness of God. And that's why it's accomplished. And you see that

back in Genesis even with the sat, you'll see it in Exodus too whenever there's a, there's a, some sacrificial systems that happen later. But in Genesis, when Abraham cuts the animals in half, and then they're going to walk through these divided animals. The blood covenant? Yeah, that blood covenant. It's saying, if I break this covenant, may this happen to me? And then Abraham never walks through.

God puts him to sleep, and God's presence moves through. So God's saying, if you break this covenant, Abraham, may this happen to me? and that's exactly, that is, that is what happens in the Ennis, foreshadowing that Christ is going to take on the suffering of man. Christ is going to take on the penalty. And I think all that's here, so God's covenant is not dependent on, on our faithfulness because those we're going to see here in this story, they're not going to be faithful, right, ever. By the way, if you want to take this course with us, it's free, you can sign up for Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. We're in the Exodus story right now. want you to take it with us.

But yeah, so we move in and then. Well, he gives a little bit of, you know, Dr. Jackson talked about, and I was interested to hear y'all's take on it. He gives a little foreshadow. He had talked about, you know, he drops early in about the firstborn, like there's death coming. Like he gives this picture of the end of it. And even before you even get started, remember he's like,

he gives that idea that this is going to end poorly. and then we start back through all the different plagues. And I did think that was interesting because it's like, it's like a movie, you know how it's going to end, but you have to watch it because it's like, you know, it's interesting,

the in between. And that's the way he described this whole plague situation, because he already kind of tells at the very beginning, this is going to end really badly. But then you've got to go back and go through the process because he's given them an opportunity to repent at every step of the way. First the people, then the other.

So it reminds me that. Titanic, I was always intrigued by that as a kid. So then they come out with a movie. We already know what's going to happen. I mean, the Titanic's going to sink. The shocker would have been, it was like, oh, it didn't sink. You know, a fresh take on the Titanic. You knew what was going to happen, but you couldn't help yourself watch the movie because

it was like, now they could do it in such a way you could like imagine being on the boat. And so I think that's the same way here. You know this is going to end poorly. And yet at the same time, you're intrigued by the process to get there. these plagues as they go along and they play themselves out, they're just every step of the way, you're like, why would you just, why would you not relent? Like, how do you just continue to say, one more?

Give me one more. Give me one more. You know, which, which I don't know. Had you practiced that? What's that? No, that was a really good connection. No, I just, that's great. That was really impressive.

Well, you've been preaching. That was very poetic. That guy's been preaching for a long time. See, for me, that was one I would have had. That one would have been written down in my notes somewhere. You had to practice that. Yeah, Titanic compared to Exodus. You would have done that one in the mirror.

No, I wrote Titanic down in my nose. I did write Titanic. Because I thought about it as he was describing. I said, that's like the Titanic. I mean, I love it. I can go back and watch it again. But I still know I's going to end. It's still going to end badly.

The guy's going to drown. He's going to. Yeah, these historical stories. Yeah, exactly. I mean, even the blind. We know how it is. You know why it's because this is, this is, this text is epic. I mean, this is an epic story.

Yeah. And that's why the Ten Commandments, you know, have you ever seen the original with Charlton Heston the Ten Command? See, it's so old now, it would be new to y'all. But, I mean, that was on national television for 40 years. Every year at Easter or whenever they would run it, you know, the country would watch the Ten Commandments.

Isn't that something? Yeah. And now that's like a lost thing, but before it, it's like everybody knew because everybody watched. It's an epic story. Yeah. It's a big story. Well, I think it's interesting as he gets into these plagues. And we talked a little bit about this yesterday, about Hardening Ther in His Heart. There's this whole thing going on with Pharaoh. To me, it's shrinking, like maybe shrinking down,

maybe not shrinking down the story to at least think, what is, what's God ultimately trying to accomplish here? And I think there's a little nugget in Chapter 6 that is more than a nugget. I think it's a key text in the story of Exodus of the intention of God of what is he actually trying to accomplish here. And I mentioned it briefly in a previous podcast, but in verse two, listen to what he says. The Lord, he comes up to Moses. And let me back up.

I'll read verse one, too. Now you shall see, this is God speaking of Moses, what I will do to Pharaoh. For with a strong hand, speaking of that hand of God again, he will send them out. And with a strong hand, he will drive them out of his own land. And God spoke to Moses and said to him, I am the Lord. Verse three, I appeared to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty. But by my name, the Lord, I did not make myself known to them. And so God in this moment, he's basically telling Abraham, I mean, sorry, Moses, that I appeared to your forefathers.

And I did like meet with them. And we went through Genesis so we know all those times that he did meet with them. but when he met with them, he only identified himself as God Almighty. So it's more of like a, this is maybe who I am, but I'm not really telling you my name. I'm not making this personal yet. My name, Yahweh, the Lord, I am what I am, or what was the, I will be where it was. I will be there, howsoever, I will be there. Yeah, like that.

He hasn't told anybody that yet until at the burning bush. And so he gave that to Moses. He said, why did he do that? well, he established, he said, I established my covenant with them and gave them the land of Canaan. So he did give them the covenant, but there's an intention and a purpose of what he wants to ultimately accomplish. And he says it right here in verse six, say therefore to the people of Israel, I am the Lord. I'm Yahweh, tell my name. And I will bring you out from the burden of the Egyptians. And so the intention here really is for Moses. His main calling is to tell the people,

who, what the name of God is. And you think about how that goes all the way into the New Testament and you get to like the whole, there's no under name by which men can be saved or repent and be baptized. Acts to every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ. So you see that fullness and completion come in the name of God. That's why when he say, ask it my name and it will be given to you, the name of God is central to the story because it's the name of God. that I think identifies real presence,

because even as Dr. Jackson, I thought it was one of the best points he made at Exodus 3 portion. That manifest, in the name of God, is the manifest presence of God, and not just in the name even. Like, if I know your name, like, then we're on a different level, right?

If I know about you, that's one thing. But if I know you by name and I can call you, I got your name and my cell phone, like, that's a different level of relationship. And so I think what's happening here is, is this story is it's anchoring in the name of God into human history and we're going to and we're talking about it here today thousands of years later oh yeah absolutely yeah and you know I think did you all ever see the movie uh Stargate uh Kurt Russell was in it uh this is probably a 20 year

old 20 30 25 or 30 30 year old movie and then it was a television show after that I think but it was the concept was they created this device that could like create a, you know, wormhole. Portal, yeah. And so the whole thing was kind of based on that. But the idea was is that somehow that had been created by an alien that was like, and the alien looked like an ancient Egyptian. And, you know, and they would come. And so back in the day, so it was like some other place, but then they came to Earth.

And it was like they had been here before. And I couldn't help but think about that, that concept behind it. just a movie, but I wonder if that came from this idea here, because he talked about Pharaoh, possibly, and this idea of fallen on angels and this God stuff, you know, like we're all gods and, you know, all these abilities that they supposed to have. And there may be a lot of truth in that. We don't really know. You know, you think about the Nephilim and all the stuff and the other parts, what was left over here in terms of all this interaction. But they're, you know, we call them, people are intrigued by aliens, but I mean, they're beings from another

realm that have definitely had a lot of interaction and you see it in an ancient time. So I wonder about that and these abilities that these magicians have to get into these things and somehow they had the ability to do some pretty amazing things. And I don't know if that was by some sort of other realmly ability, if it was all just smoking mirrors. What was it? But there's something here that these guys had and then they were limited, you know. Yeah.

I don't know what do y'all think about that? I have thought. There's a difference between, you know, doing a car trick and making a staff turn and do a snake. I mean, there's, you know, there's deception, but then there's also, that's just crazy. Yeah, exactly. Look, I have a thought, before I say that, I want to go back to what Zach said about the names of God. And Dr. Jackson said this. He says in the theme, but I think it's more clear when you actually read it.

The name of God when he says, God Almighty, that's what's translated as El Shadai. Yeah. And that's what they talk about. Almighty, which is like a representative of God's power. Like what God is saying, when they say El Shaddai, they're saying like God is the most powerful. But then when God gives his new name, Yahweh, I am who I am, it's like a bringing it down to the personal. Like I am all powerful, but I'm also with you here now and forever. It's like going from this idea or God representing himself as like this force almost as you kind of see him in the old in the in genesis down to like

I'm a personal being who is looking at you and talking with you and wants to walk with you through this as opposed to just something nature which in that movie I was chenny it so that it was raw you know the god of the sun so and which was typical because it was like what's the most powerful thing in our creation well I'm the guy of that well as you think about like the the difficulty all of this is, well, El Shaddai, God, all powerful. When I think of that idea, then whatever El Shadi is, it's other than. Other than, right. It's up there.

Yeah, it's up there. But then when you say, well, no, no, it's, his name is Yahweh. Well, now I'm like, we're talking about personality here. We're talking about, like, well, that's a little more contextual and has texture and I can maybe interact. You see what I'm saying? But it's like the, even if you got the God of mercy and the God. God of judgment.

Yeah. These are interactive situations, right? You take that all the way to Jesus, who God saves. Yeah. Or Joshua, then to Jesus, God saves. So you've got, you go from God Almighty to, I am with you, to I am saving you. Well, even, even. And there's tons of other names, too.

Well, I'm thinking about Acts 17, which Dr. Jackson brought up, I think when he was in the podcast with us, that who's going to judge the world? You know, I think he said this to the podcast. I know we talked about this, but all his students, when they asked that question, they're like, God, the Father's, well, you know, Acts 17 says that he will judge the world by the son. And so, wait, well, I thought he was going to save the world.

And so I think that this is kind of the heaven and earth thing. It's all this, like, the hard part about walking in the kingdom is that we typically want to go either or, and it's actually both and. The kingdom is not yet fully realized, but the kingdom is here. You have another podcast called Not Yet Now. That's the whole concept.

So we're holding these things. I don't even know if tension is the right word. It's, we're talking about the God of the cosmos. It's complicated. It's complicated because he is a God that's other than, and he is a God that condescends. And so you're even seeing it in the exit story.

But to your question, Al, I think that when he talks about the definition of monotheism in the course, I thought that was really helpful because I've struggled with this a lot when you start thinking about other religions. And you can get into conversations with a lot of different religions on what monotheism actually means. And the Christianity, when you get into the Trinity, especially, people are like, wait, three gods, one God, it gets a little wonky. And it's a very nuanced discussion because the teaching in the Bible is that God is a triune God. Yeah. And, I mean, that is very clear in Scripture that Jesus is God, and he's a different person than the Father and the Holy Spirit's a different person than the Father and the Son, but they're all three equally God. So they're, so, but it's essentially one in being and then three in like centers of consciousness or three persons in one being. But I think this is interesting because, and Michael Heiser was very helpful for me in this, reading his book, The Unseen Realm, when he talks about these fallen angels or this divine counsel.

that's in, and some of this goes into the book of Enoch and other places as well. And he mentions that in the lecture. He does mention it in the lecture. So I think there's a correlation here with Heiser's work. But the word for God is Elohim. Elohim. And so there are references in the Bible of other Elohims than Yahweh. So then you say, well, are there other gods?

Well, the Bible would say, yes, there are other gods. And so when we say monotheism, it's not that there's not these other Elohims. There's these other beings that are celestial and that have powers and they can do stuff. You know what I mean? Monotheism, I love the way he says this, is that Yahweh is the best God. He's the God of all gods. He's the self. So when we think about monotheism, what we're saying is, is that God, that Yahweh is the ultimate reality in any of,

other lowercase Elohims were created by him. And any dominion that they have, or it's borrowed dominion that God. And we want to say it's just ancient times, ancient texts like this, but are we still not having Battle of the Giles to this very day? I mean, there's billions of people

that follow another God. I think so. Than the one we do. You know what I'm saying? I mean, we would say, oh, no, you just need to understand who God really is. And we try to explain that in Jesus

and how in the Bible, but there are billions of people of it think there's another God. Right. Our God's better than your God. So it still goes on even to this day. Yeah. When you see that word Elohim,

you see it translated differently throughout the Old Testament. You see it translated as God as in the Lord God. You see it translated as like God's messenger. Yeah. Which is like some passages translate it as Jesus or like the word, but then you also see it translated as an angel.

And so you see it all these different ways. And to that point too, Like, we, we, us at this table right here, especially Zach and out, like us, didn't grow up in a tradition of Christianity that was very spiritual. Like, we, we had a very, I don't want to say negative, but critical view of any, anything that's spiritual. Yeah. Anything that is outside of like, God, Jesus. It was like, that's strange fire. That's what I'm saying.

The Holy Spirit is iffy, like, is barely there. The Holy Spirit we were taught only speaks through the written word. And then, I mean, I remember hearing that as a kid. Oh, yeah. Like, he speaks to the Bible. But then other than that, like, so if he's not speaking and moving out, then there's certainly the, and there's no. Certainly angels and demons and anything else.

That's not even. Totally. Well, the way it was taught to us, basically, is what the flood just dealt with all. that and that's the end of it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so it's over. But it's not because it's still around. But even you get to Jesus, you see it. Even us and even like kind of, especially in the south, like we kind of don't see that a lot. But when you talk to missionaries in Africa or New Guinea or like all those places, there's all kinds of weird stuff going on. And I've talked to the missionaries who, they'll tell me some stuff that, I mean, they're trusted, legit, even-headed people

that'll say things like people, you know, transforming or speaking different languages or disappearing, like all this crazy stuff. Larry Bowles. Larry Bowles is on the podcast. Tell us about these visions, all these, you know, evacuees and refugees were having, all having the same dream over and over and over. You know, who is this person I keep dreaming about, you know, name Yeshire, name J? I mean, they're doing it in Farsi. So it's like. It's happening quite a bit.

Quite a bit. So, I mean, that's a movement of, you know, God is moving in that situation. Yeah. By the way, make sure you guys, if you want to take this course with us, you can sign up for it at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. It's free. We're in the study of Exodus. We're going through the plagues right now.

And this is the question, though, that I think it hits at the center of the text here, too. But I was reminded of this verse in Ephesians chapter 6 that I, and this is for us. for we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness against the spiritual forces of evil and the heavenly places. So you see Paul's instruction is that there is a celestial cosmic realm that is actually orchestrating some of his battle. And that was written some 2,500 years after what this is happening. I mean, so obviously it's going forward. And even in the U.S., I mean, I think if you walk through the streets of the town that I live in,

I think you're going to see some serious demonic. I'm saying, like, Bible Belt, Evangelical South. But where you are in the North. He talks about a messenger sent to him to torment him. I think how this relates to what we're talking about here in Exodus, it seems like there's a lot of stuff with the spiritual realm that we don't understand. But it seems to me that there's some kind of like power where something that an angel or God does allow, or we do as humans, allows evil force to also do or something that they do allows an angel to respond to that in some way. Like when you see the God do the miracles of the plagues, that allows the demons or whatever spiritual force to respond. to that in kind but not as powerful.

Right. And it goes both ways until it gets to the point where God is so overpowering, they can't respond to it. I agree 100%. Because there's a conniving nature here. And we talked about Pharaoh sort of being a representative of evil that we've seen in the past in the book of Genesis. And you see it.

Like this whole thing with the straw and the pulling back. And there's no doubt he's turning them against each other and against Moses. I mean, his deal is, that's how I'll deal with it, like I do everything else. I'll just come up with this sneaky little plan. They'll all turn on each other. And before you know it, everybody's back to building, you know, stones again. Let's get back to pyramid building or whatever was going on. So it's like you see this, whether it's a, this force that Zach described, that's working here in embodiment in Pharaoh or if he was some sort of following it, I don't know.

But I know that his tactics are very familiar. from what you saw on the guard. There is a participation, there is a participation of, that Pharaoh is engaged with demonic forces. Right. I think that's pretty clear. I think that's a key point is that we as humans have to allow it. Yeah.

Right. and all that, like, ooh, that's a little scary. But you have to look at how God responds. He has no power against. Exactly. You and I have been to, you and I went to Auschwitz. Did you not feel that there's the presence of evil in a place? It's still there after 75 years, you know.

I mean, you know what went down, but you know that was pure evil. The spiritual forces were soaked into the physical walls of Auschwitz. You feel it. It is a covering on your, you know, your sense, your aura that you feel there. Obviously, if you look at Pharaoh, so there's a different pharaoh when Joseph is in Egypt. I'm sure there's a different pharaoh

when Moses was growing up. So Moses returns, do you think it's the same Pharaoh that was there when he was... I was going to ask that question. When he was there, or do you think it's a... Because I was thinking about Moses showing... I wonder if they knew each other.

That's what I'm saying. Because there's a movie, right, where they're like brothers or brothers. Because Moses flees, looking like an Egyptian, comes back 40 years later. I'm sure he's not still. looking like an Egyptian.

So I wonder if even Hebrews recognized him. Right. You know? He looked like a medianite. Yeah. Or if he walks into the temple in Egypt and like no one recognizes him. Right. I think he, I was thinking about this last night.

I think he would have been recognized. One, because he would have spoken the language and spoken the things that they would understand. And I think that's why, to be accepted. I mean, like, if you look at history, like if you read historical manuscripts or like see how culture

worked prior to the modern age it was about how you looked and how you spoke like that was the main thing like that's Paul like when Paul gets arrested and he says no I'm a I'm a Roman citizen

hear how I speak see my culture like that was how he's accepted and I think that was what Moses was able to get an audience with Pharaoh because of his upbringing. Because otherwise, why would God not have chosen Aaron? Right.

Like, why was Moses the guy versus Aaron who had our... Well, he had the real of Hebrews, right? Because, yeah, he would have been familiar with the language. Well, you have to... Chapter 2, verse 23, says that during those many days, the king of Egypt died

and the people of Israel grown because their slavery had cried out for help. So new pharaoh. I mean, you could interpret that. Well, it definitely was from when Joseph was there, but it wasn't the same guy. Because remember, Pharaoh's daughter pulls him out of the water and then Dr. Jackson points out, she's still there because she follows them out and becomes part of the deal. That's an interesting thing. Think about as he goes in to do these plagues, though, because I know I do want to hit a couple things.

I think we're super cool. one, again, Pharaoh's hardening, the hardening of the Favors' heart is a big, that's a big thing that's happening here that has a lot of implications

in the New Testament even. But I think that hardening is that participation. You know, God says in Exodus 7, verse 3, I will harden Pharaoh's heart

and I think this is the intention of it. And though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you. And then he goes on and say, then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my host, my people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. The Egyptians

shall know that I am Yahweh. So even that, so you still see an expansion of God's name here, even to even to Egypt. So like the intention of God is to make his name known because anytime you read that word, the Lord, he's talking about his name. So now, think about he hadn't revealed his name to anybody up into this point, up until he talks to Moses. And then he's like, Moses, I want you to tell, I want you to tell Israel my name. Well, then he's expanding that out. Not only is Israel going to know my name now. I mean, this thing's going worldwide.

I even want my enemies to know my name. And the way that I understand this is like that anybody in a coherent state of being, anyone, if their rational faculties are intact, would submit to the power of God in this moment. You just would. Even if it's just out of pragmatic reasons, I don't want to, like, clearly you're the guy, you and your God, I submit. Like, anybody would do that. But I think there's something about the character of God is he's not looking for that type of submission. He's not looking for just a submission that you would submit to him out of power.

he's looking for a submission and I think that's what faith in the New Testament is. It's not a submission out of power and just recognizing that God is all powerful. It's also recognizing that God is all good. And so then my submission is out of faith. It's I actually believe that you are the source of true life and fulfillment. And so he's actually hardening Pharaoh's heart because he knows that the power that he's about to unleash, what anybody would fold under that. but he said, I'm not looking for that type of submission.

I'm looking for a relational, like, submission. I'm looking for a faithful submission. I'm looking for love. I'm looking for love, I am love, is what he's saying. So I think that's the intention. And so he says, I want to make, because I want you to know my name. Well, the name will go back to the name. The name is God's manifest presence.

It's I am self-sustaining, yes, but I'm also here. I'm with you. I just don't think we can get away from that. Yeah, Dr. Jackson also brought up too. Like these first couple plagues, he's also trying to convince Israel, too, you know, that he is, that he is the Lord. And it's, it's for the Egyptians, but it's also, you know, he's trying to make himself known for the Israelites. And I think something that I've kind of grew up hearing, and he put a different spin on it, but, you know, these first plagues, you have the Nile,

the Nile turned to blood, then the frogs. And I'd always heard it. And I think he maybe mentioned this when we were talking. But he had talked about how most people believe that when God, you know, with the Nile, then the frogs, it's to demonstrate power that I'm more powerful than these gods at the time, whether it's the frogs or the water gods

or these kind of things. Because everything was in the creation. Yeah, yeah. But he was talking about it more from like a proximity standpoint, which I thought was really interesting. Like it was coming in. Yeah, like the Nile and then the frogs are, they're inside your house,

smells like death, they're in your rooms, they're in your, your covers. It gets closer. It gets closer. At first, the death is out here outside the camp, and it's like a warning. But the more belligerent pharaoh is, the death creeps closer, the proximity of death. And even the lice, I mean, then it's on your body. On your body. Yeah, then it's on you.

Like, I can touch you now. Yeah. I had always heard it like God's doing it to, like, show the Egyptians like, oh, you think this guy's powerful. Well, watch what I do. But he kind of broke it down in an interesting way. I think it's kind of both. And I thought that was really good.

And he kind of stops. But then it goes from the lice. It goes from, yeah, the Nile, which is like what you see, the frogs in your house, the gnats, and the flies, which are like, these are on your body. And then the livestock is like the things you're eating, followed by the boils, which is on your body, like actually inside your body. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And what do you, a rash.

I'd never heard a burning rash was the way that they, the, they. It actually translates out, which is interesting because that was a little bit different thing. But you're right. The idea now that it's actually a physical ailment. And remember, you see this same type process happen to Job. Right. You know, when you see the proximity of Satan's attack, remember, first it was his possessions, and then it was his children.

And then, you know, ultimately it was his physical. The proximity, the evil one did got more and more, you know, the plagues reversed. this time was evil one. Yeah. Yeah, I don't understand. After seeing, like, the staff turned to a snake, the Nile turned to blood, frogs raining down, and just everywhere, and then they'll die. I'm like, why was it the lice that the magicians were like, surely it is the finger

of God? I'm like, if I saw the Nile River turned to blood and just frogs and the staff turned to a snake, I don't know why lice would be like, surely this is the finger of God. I don't know why that one was like, although if you've ever had a life outbreaking? If you've ever, I've, someone who's just over deadly.

No, it's terrible, but I'm just saying if I saw the washers all over turn to blood, like to me, that would be crazier. That would be a much bigger thing. But I think it's about the proximity, though.

Yeah. It's like, you're getting close. But think about again, like, think about this idea of what God is doing in each one of these plagues. The first plague was,

I think, a pretty powerful plague. Yeah. But it was a stench of death. the thing turned into the dire river turned into blood. And by the way, this is... And then their food supply to, that was the point you made too. And this is the longest river in the world.

I think it... I mean, it's not like, you know, it's not like he picked the Sabine rivers. I mean, like, this is the Nile River. It's the longest river in the world. Listen to his intention in Exodus 7, 17, thus says the Lord by this, by turning the Nile into

blood, you shall know that I am Yahweh. Again, So then you flip over to the frogs in Exodus 8. And tomorrow Moses said, be as you say, so that you may know that there is no one like Yahweh, our God. You go through all these plagues and over and over and over again when the plague is being laid out, then what you're seeing is that Moses is saying so that you may know

essentially the name of this God who he is. And so when you were talking about, and Dr. Jackson, I thought this was a really interesting point. He didn't quite make this connection, but I'm going to make it. Because I've never thought about, I've always thought about the manifest presence of God on the good side of it, meaning that I want to be in his presence. But that's actually very dangerous. Yeah. Right.

Right. So not everybody should want that. You only want that if you have a relationship with him. So I think what you're seeing in the Exodus story is, is the presence of of God is on both sides of this equation, it's coming in. And then this will happen throughout history is the presence of God will become more and more central to God's people. Eventually, he'll actually live in human bodies.

I mean, but you're going to see a tabernacle, a temple. It's going to keep shrinking down. Like God's presence is moving in, right, always. And then that gives life. So I got the perfect illustration. So this guy from Missouri comes down, he's thinking, well, I just, you know, I want to get right with God. So I just need to get to Mr. Phil.

I need to get to, you know, so he can tell me about Jesus. So he goes down there and scales the fence and comes up to dad's front door. That was very dangerous. I mean, you better, you know, you're saying. There's no relationship there, and you're uninvited, and you're standing at the front door. And so when he meets Mr. Phil, Mr. Phil's got an AR, you know. And in that moment, I'm sure, for a brief second, he thought, what have I done? Yeah.

And it all worked out for him, but I'm saying it was a dangerous proposition without relationship and invitation to somehow put yourself into the presence. Because as God's name, his manifest presence is being revealed to Egypt. Right. The way they're going to experience that is plagues and ultimately death. Exactly. The way that Israel is going to... Because then that separation starts in the later plagues, remember? And I think this is probably the bigger eschatological vision of the kingdom is that,

that God's presence is moving in and getting closer and closer and closer. And so I think CS Lewis does a great job in The Great Divorce of kind of teasing this out with some good imagery. By the way, if you want to take this course with us, you can go to Unashamed for Hillsdale.com, and we're in the story of Exodus, and you can take it for free with us. We want you to take it with us. It's been very powerful for us. But anyways, the CS Lewis book, The Great Divorce, the way he paints that picture of you have two types of people that are in the same kind of space. but one people experience it as just complete utopia

and the other experience the same thing as complete hell. And so the presence of God, if you think about this, it will consume you. It will be painful to experience his presence if you're not in relationship with him and if you're an enemy. I think you're seeing that in this as the plagues move inward and ultimately it's going to end with them having to put the blood of the lamb of the doorpost.

Which we're out of time. So we'll have to get into that next time. Yeah, wow. That went fast. Did go fast. That's good. All right. So we'll see next time on Unashamed.

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