Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1208 | Jase Gets Roasted By a Fan & Admits It’s Painfully True

Episode Date: November 13, 2025

Jase gets lovingly roasted by a self-proclaimed “dork” who calls him out for talking too much and he has to admit, it’s true. The listener’s tongue-in-cheek “Unashamed Drinking Game” exposes all the guys’ funniest and worst habits, leading Zach to suspect it might be a Robertson family member secretly trolling them. The guys pivot to a lively discussion about why unity in Christ matters more than denominational lines and how Jesus’ resurrected body defies description yet fills us with hope for our own resurrection. In this episode: John 19; 1 Corinthians 15; 1 John 3; Romans 4; Romans 8; Hebrews 11; Genesis 22. Chapters: 00:00-04:33 Jase isn’t a great listener 04:34-18:46 Churches need to unify, not divide 18:47-26:42 The Unashamed “drinking game” 26:43-31:35 Jase’s chickens come home to roost 31:36-40:26 No words could describe Jesus’ resurrected body 40:27-50:10 Abraham got it wrong & still got it right 50:11-57:06 How to grow your faith step-by-step — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashame. We have been, we'd just call it passionately discussing this morning, different aspects of the Unashamed podcast. And we've determined one thing. Out of the three people around this table, Zach, of course, virtually from Black Mountain,

I'm the only one that listens to the other people as they're talking. Zach doesn't listen. Jace doesn't listen. Jace will admit it. And Zach finally admitted it today. He begrudgingly admitted it. It wasn't a full confession. I felt like I was having a disagreement with my wife in a weird way.

Well, that's kind of your work wife. I see a lot of similarities. You know, you're right. But then it's like the excuse on why I'm not right. So I'm like, was I really right? What I said was, I said, Jace, you have to admit that you are. your dad, Willie, and I said, and I'll throw myself in the same group. Begrudgingly, he does.

Begrudgingly, but we don't listen well. We have an answer in mind. When you're talking, like if you're telling me, as people are talking, I'm already thinking about my answer. And in defense, Zach, in defense of that, in a discussion orating thing, you do have to think about what you want to say next. So that's, if we didn't, we just have a lot of dead air. It's impossible.

It's impossible. But there is a skill set, and I have it. I have a certain set of skills, and I don't know where I got it, that you can listen actively and still think about what you want. I make a little note here, and then when I get my chance, I'm going to jump in and hate my point. But I have a problem. I talk more. You do.

And so, but look, I'm acknowledging this fault. And so I said, what I do, what I've matured. But talking more is not necessarily a fault because you have good things to say. I think you're... Well, I think you. I know. See, that's why you're the glue. I'll tell you one unifying group that I love is a group called Family Research Council up in D.C.

And a good friend, Tony Perkins is the leader of it. He's a Louisiana guy. We love him. He's been very supportive of us. Back when Dad was being attacked, he was one of the first people in him. We love what those guys are doing. They're front line. They're talking about what we're doing as a church, as the church, but at a national level to try to impact our politics.

So we'd love if you support these guys, FRC.org slash unashamed is where you can go to do that. What I'm saying is I told Zach, I have, if you want to have a Bible study with me, which I have a lot ongoing. Yeah. I do it in writing.

So I, but I've learned because now I will listen if I'm reading. And a couple of the Bible studies is more. But you've always been a monologue person. When you were, you've told the story on the podcast, when you were like, what were you 15 and some person called us,

some prank caller or something? and you started sharing the gospel with them. And that went on for like a year. Yeah, you're telling that story just like it's an afterthought. Oh, that was a life-changing moment for me. That's like top-10 life-changed. I know. I shared my first gospel presentation.

But it was a complete monologue because they never responded. It was perfect. It was great. I loved it. So that's where I started. That's where my roots are. And I like that situation. However, when they finally made a noise, it terrified because there had been hours of silence.

And then you heard a sniffle, right? Went into a snippet? Yeah. And so what I was saying is most of them are discipleship studies. So they're asking questions. And I'm then going, they're reading a book. Usually we start in John, just like we're doing. And they're reading questions.

They're asking questions. And look, always the first question, it's so amazing. These are different people from all over this globe. And we're having an email Bible study. First question always, what exactly does it mean by the word became flesh? because you just take it for granted that everybody knows what that means. Here's a guy who's come to Christ.

He's in Christ. He's a Christian. It's like, let's read the book of John and just ask questions. And since that's the first verse and the first thing. The first verse, they're like, what's this this word stuff? I'm like, oh boy, here we go. It's like, go ahead and skip down to first 14.

It'll help. Yeah, it's going to help. But it does show you how. we're studying this Bible and how created they were in that we've heard that so many times. We immediately know that verse 14 kind of clarifies that statement. But if you're just reading it, not for the first time, but like with the first time on purpose. Yeah, with fresh eyes. You're like, in the beginning it was the word and the word was with God.

They're like, this doesn't make any sense. Right. Well, what is the word? Yeah. It's like, well, it is capitalized. So what does that mean? I mean, that's a very good question. I'm not knocking the question.

No, it's a great question. This is why we need to study the Bible, and you kind of need somebody there to help you along saying, okay, don't panic. There's a perfect explanation that actually gives this more credence. And you've got to remember, which goes into the debate of how the Bible was written, because you have, what, 40 different?

authors, and that's approximate because there's a few books. We're not sure who wrote what over a span of three thousand, at least five thousand, three to five thousand depending on like when it was written versus when it happened. Because there's some gap. So you have, and you actually have the thing be somewhat cohesive. And I say somewhat because you also have the mystery factor that this plan of God was not revealed to the spiritual forces of evil, so it's almost coded. There's a lot of apocalyptic language, what we call apocalyptic language, what's a better simpler version of that word, imagery language, where it's written picture form. It's like looking at a piece of art, and you get 10 different explanations on what the art

is representing. Well, and you've also got the different literary forms. I mean, we're doing a study for Hillsdale, with the literary professor. The guy's got a PhD in this topic. And when you're talking about poetry versus history, historical, I mean, you got some things, the whole chapters in the Bible are just historical things about clans and families.

And then you've got letters that were written back and forth, which if you studied American history, you would study people that did poetry. You would study the letters of, you know, say John Adams back and forth to Thomas Sheridan. Well, all that's contained in one book. Yeah. over the whole history of humanity, which includes the history of Israel.

So you're right, Judge. It's quite there. And I was listening to every word you just said because my thought that I had... See, we've already had improvements since we started. I introduced that I didn't finish, was that... But I have a couple of studies, or studies I don't like, but I do them. Where somebody has read the Bible, and that's the same thing. They're so frustrated with what Christianity looks.

like in our American culture. They either had a bad church experience. Which many people do. Yep. And they're like, well, this can't be it. So then they go to the Bible and say, well, let me look for an alternative version. And when I'm using the word Christianity, I'm using that in quotations because Christian is only used that the phrase three times, I think it's three times in the New Testament.

Right. And it's in the context of they were called Christians, like for the first time in Antioch. There's one of the references in the book of Acts. Well, it wasn't like God saying, call yourself a Christian. They were following Christ, and there was a group of people that said, Oh, they're Christian. They're Christians. They follow Christ, right.

So. It's not a bad term, but it's not the term. Right. But now, fast forward 2,000 years. And Christianity has become a thing, you know. And within Christianity, using it in that way, you have thousands of different groups, thousands all saying the guy on the corner, catty corner, who follows Jesus? We don't agree with him.

And there's a frustration that's happened there that's obvious because I think we've proved by breaking down Jesus' prayer in John 17, but there's way more verses in all the letters that the whole goal of Jesus died on a cross was to bring people together that they would be one. And we are doing the exact opposite. We're so fragmented. And I'm just being honest.

We don't like each other as far as groups. And I went through that the first four or five years of my Christian walk. They're like, oh, no, stay away from that group. I had other people telling me, no, they're wrong on this, they're wrong on that. And half the time you don't even know what's really they teach anyway. I mean, you know what I said all that to say, you know what transform my view on that is when we became famous, not based on what church we attended, but just having a silly show in a worldly environment.

And then all these fragmented groups said, oh, yeah, they're with us. because it was like one of the few times in Hollywood, you actually have Jesus following people on TV. Yeah. And so I got invited by all the different denominations to come speak. And I'm like, they just kind of claim me as their own, you know? Yeah. And so I, but what I, my point is, I met,

I've met tens of thousands of people from various groups with different names under the umbrella of Christianity who actually loved Jesus. Yeah. And it changed my view on this fragment. I thought, we have to be one in Jesus. And let's not get so bent out of shape on these other differences. But when you say that, pastors hear that makes them nervous. And the last pastor I told that too, it was very uncomfortable and awkward.

Because I said, it's a big church. And I was visiting. I met the pastor. And I was like, it was such a big church. I was like, they got one. this here and this guy was a young guy I was like look if you ever you don't want a safe place to call and just have a guy who'll tell you what you think without any kind of judgment or agenda I was like you can call me I'm because I'm familiar with how these big churches work

and kind of being the guy not that I am yeah that role but I understand it how to navigate it and I and he said well what is your he asked something about oh he's He's like, well, what denomination are you with? That was a size-up question. That was a sign to me that we have fragmentation issues. I didn't like the question. And I did my typical answer, which as I said, well, the group I'm with is actually one, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. And I was being a little sarcastic, but I said, I try to unite people in Jesus.

And I didn't give the verses, but I was thinking. of John 17 the prayer. I was thinking of all this, be unified, have one spirit, you're one. Think Ephesians four, just off the top of my head. All these Philippians too, be like-minded, have the unity of the spirit. And I said, I think we should unite on Jesus and don't worry so much about the other stuff. Well, you know what his answer was? He said, well, I think as stewards of the whole word of God that we do, do need to look into the other stuff. So he's never reached out to me.

That kind of ended that party, you know. But you see what I was trying to do, you know? It gets difficult, though, when you start a church and the stuff does boil up that you just kind of want to be like, oh, let's just unite. I mean, I do see how it happens, because there are theological distinctives that people hold, and there's a diversity in that that would obviously lend you

to go to a different type of. church. And so I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing because I think it can be. Obviously, the church has divided quite a bit over theological distinctives and things that I would call tertiary issues, meaning that they're like third tier. They're not like, these aren't like, these are not. Well, how do you, how do you size that up with all the verses? If I read all the verses that are talking about us being one, I mean, it's got to mean something. Why is he highlighting that so much? Because then you're going to get into things like, well, just take baptism, for example.

What is your view on infant baptism versus, you know, pedo-baptism versus a believer's baptism or something like that? Like, that's going to boil up in any congregation or women's roles or there's a lot of issues that pop up in churches that you'll hold as a theological distinctive. and so or even like eschatology. And so I may not want to go to a church that doesn't hold to some of these issues that I think are very important. But at the same time, I may say, hey, you're still a brother. I love what you guys are doing over there. Yeah, okay. Well, there's what I was looking for.

You've got to have some, because the Bible is really clear on them. I mean, Jesus, in his prayer before his death, he's like, he's boiled it all down that they be one and you love one another. That has to be addressed. Well, my thing, Jay, is my realization for it came after 25 years being in one spot here, preaching and teaching at one place and kind of going through the same cycle you're talking about. You know, loving the people down the street but thinking, well, they're wrong about this, they're wrong about that. When Lisa and I injected ourselves or the Lord put us into the stream of the pro-life movement, that changed me.

Because then all of a sudden, I was out places with hundreds of thousands of people in some cases. and Washington and all this, and they were from all stripes, but there wasn't anybody talking about any difference we had. We were all super unified on one thing, saving babies, helping people in trouble. So that really opened my eyes to the idea that if we have more of a singular cause that's Christ-centered,

then we can kind of get away from all that stuff. I think that's a good thing. It's a great analogy. You kind of smell it, though, like when there are certain groups or people, and I know who they are. I mean, some of them are at least, because when I get on Twitter, it's like the worst, you know, or X. But it's like their whole platform is to call out other groups for their theological heresies. And I thought about that.

There is a time to do that. But I'm like, man, if what you're known for is calling out the heresies of others, I would say that's not a good thing to be known for. No. Unless you're a prophet of the eldest. No, I mean, like, but even the prophets, I mean, they were calling out heretics, but they were pointing people back to the person of Jesus or, I guess, at least Yahweh. And so it's a call to who is God. Like your primary emphasis of your teaching and your preaching should be on who is God. And then who am I in him? And then, yeah, you'll deal with heretical teachings as they pop up and as they distort you from that end, which is Christ and, which is Christ. himself. But the end of our role was a church. And I thought about this a lot. Like, you're not going to preserve God's church. Like he's going to preserve it. The Holy Spirit will preserve his church. And that's why when you look at like denominations and you look at even like

creedal systems, you know, we grew up in a non-credal system, but like even the creeds and the confessions of the church, of different churches, they haven't done any to really protect their particular group from going into theological liberalism. I mean, look at the Presbyterian Church, the PCUSA is extremely theologically liberal, but yet they have the Westminster Confession and the shorter and greater catechism. So those confessions didn't do anything to really preserve the denomination. I think that is a lesson to us that our man-made systems, they may be helpful, but they are no replacement for the Holy Spirit who will preserve his church.

church. And so I've always viewed a truly non-denominational church as a church that is leaning on the lead of the Holy Spirit, which I think is the whole point when you get to John. And he talks about that oneness. The oneness he's talking about is that when he's asking the father for that oneness, he's doing that after he just told us about the coming of the Holy Spirit, who we guide us into all truth. And so I think you can't separate the two. The Spirit, God, Holy Spirit of God is more powerful than any system that we can come up with to protect the church from corruption. Okay, I had to look back while y'all were talking, I wasn't listening, because I was looking up. I got a letter. When did I get this? I got this two weeks ago,

and I got to read this, because this goes with the spirit of what we just discussed. You know, our weaknesses on the podcast. Yep. Now, I got to send me this letter. I'll give his first name as Lance, and he put, aka the dad dork. The dad dork. Yeah, you got to be a dork to come up with a letter like this. I'm just saying.

And look, Zach. I think I've read this. So here is the problem with the podcast, but he did it in a fun way by playing a drinking game. Oh, yeah. And he puts in parentheses, non-alcohol. hall because you will see why. So here's the drinking game. He says when anyone utters the term Southern Lair, take a drink.

When the term rabbit, when the term rabbit hole gets used, take a drink. When any of the Robertsons say, look, but they don't want you to actually visually look at anything. They want you to listen. Take a drink. Hey, look. When Jace blatantly interrupts anyone on the podcast, fellow host, guest, his spouse, or any other human. I added that part. Take a drink.

When Zach uses a word that the listener has literally never heard in his entire existence on planet Earth, Like tertusiary. When Jase uses the word point in any context, here's my point. Would you just said that a minute ago? Here's my point. Did you not understand my point? You're making my point. That's exactly my point.

Or I'll say, can I get back to my point? Take a drink. And then at this point in the letter, it's almost over. He puts in parentheses, make sure you have plenty of liquor. with his own hand for listening to the podcast. This is hilarious. Well done, Larry. Is it Larry?

Lance. Lance. Lance. How you weren't listening. When Al reaches for a Kleenex to wipe his eyes because of heavy laughter or the cruel Louisiana allergy season. Take a drink. That happens quite a little.

When Jace leans away from the mic to either cough, belch, or spit. So it won't get picked up on the airwaves, take a drink. drink. When Jay sets up a joke that falls flat and gets everyone confused, take a drink. All right. And then here's the final bit. When the unicorn moment happens where someone named Robertson or has Robertson blood, Zach, that's intended for you. Yeah, let's use that.

Apologizes to anyone for anything, for any reason. Stop what you're doing and take five drinks. And if Zach is ever made to gag live on the air or Al get stung by any insect, don't drink because at that point you'll get choked due to how hard you will be laughing. And so finally, when you hear the phrase, we're almost out of time, finish your refreshing drink because it's been another fantastic episode. Oh, he brought it back. He brought it back up.

I thought that was absolutely well done. That's very well done. Thank you, Lance. We have thick skin, and this has been our confession time. It is. For the podcast. It's really good. Lance is funny.

I actually follow him on Instagram. Oh, you actually know who he is. I know who he is. I don't know him personally, but we've corresponded back and forth. And he has, well, he sent me a link of one of his little skits, and it was like, how do I say this? It was so bizarre and uncomfortable that it was funny. That sounds like every time I've had dinner with the dashers.

Well, I mean, if Lance is bold enough to send that scathing yet cloaked and kind of like a thumbs up. Humorous. Yeah, yeah. Humorous. Lance has a fairy. The dad dork has a strange sense of humor. You've missed this. Look, I would assume it takes a dork to know a dork.

That's why I thought y'all became friends. However, you've missed the point of that. The fact that he could put all that there means one thing to me. The man has spent a lot of time listening to the Honest Shame podcast. So I don't care. Well, I'm wondering, I'll be honest with you, after hearing that, I'm wondering if he's a real person, if he's not, if it's not a, like an avatar. It's somebody, no, somebody in our family. That was too close.

There's somebody trolling us in the family. No one in our family would classify themselves as a dork. And Zach, nobody. Nobody in our family listens to our podcast. There was that part about the apology at the end. That hit a little close to home, but he knew us. He knows who we are. He's looked down deep in your soul.

Lance is going to be surprised when he hears me apologize to Pat Benatar in the past podcast. I thought it was funny. Well, look, before, are we going to study the Bible today? We just go to get up to us. You got to check him out on Instagram. It's the dad dork, but his videos are really. really funny. So I think if you...

Oh, so that's a name. That's like his It's like a character. He says, I didn't even know that. And actually, he didn't send me that letter. He sent it to my assistant and she forwarded it to me. Oh, she must have afforded it to me because I read it. I laughed. It was funny. Well, because my assistant said, you know, she doesn't forward me very many, but she forwarded that and said, you need to listen to this

and then put a smiley face. Yeah. So I thought, oh, okay, that's funny. But what I was going to say is I have a Since we're beating each other up I have I never want to miss an opportunity to say I was right I had something happened to me the other night That was absolutely fantastic You cannot make this up

So I got invited to a card game Because I've been self Explanatory that I play cards It's one of the few things in life that I'm good at And so when I walked in And sat down And I knew everyone there. One of the guys who doesn't play very much, so I hadn't seen him in quite a while, he looks over at me and says,

and the chicken made it? And I kind of look behind me, because we have another guy who plays in our card game whose name is chicken. I don't know his real name, but we call him chicken. He doesn't look like that. Aren't there like multiple farm animals? Oh, yeah, there he is. So I thought, well, he must be, oh, chicken must have come through a side door that I didn't know about. And then he was like, hey, Jace, and I was looking right at it.

He was like, the chicken made it? And I said, have you listened to our podcast? That's the only thing I could think of, because I did this long thing about the chicken. You did two episodes about that. He's like, first episode I listened to. Really? And then he said, fantastic. He said, look, I have now, I'm hooked.

Look, the chicken, the first experience. And you know, he said, you know where I'm going tomorrow? He's like, I'm going to a Bible study. I was like, now we're talking. The chicken right. We're not. We're now. He's like, there's just so interesting.

I never thought of it. I've taken it for granted. There's chicken places on every street. He started doing my bet, which became awkward. But look, then the audience of. card players. We didn't even start at the game yet. And they're right. What's that with the ticket? Well, the guy to my right, he's like, well, you do a podcast?

What are you all talking about? And so then they had to show him how to find a podcast on his phone. And he's, well, maybe I should listen to it. I mean, we're talking about chickens. He said, I love chickens. It's like, well, you have to listen to the country. It's a Bible study. He's like, the Bible study. Well, I mean, you do that? I was like, why are you surprised?

So I just wanted to share that for all All of you who have given me that, what would you call it? I would say. Seathing rebuke. I would say, Jay's, and I think I mentioned this before, because I've been doing a lot of travel lately and meeting a lot of face-to-face people who love the podcast. And the chicken comes up more than any other thing from the last two months. But positive, not like, they're like, oh, Jay's like a chicken.

They like the chicken. Well, here's the best part of the story. Well, they didn't like the seatbelt thing. I know that. Look, 10 minutes later, after this thing has turned into somewhat of a Bible study based on this bit, the actual chicken came through the door, the guy named chicken. And you know what these guys did? Took it as a sign. I said, we were just talking about it.

And he's like, what? I did a bit about chickens. I was like, why do they call you chicken? He's like, well, I want a chicken farm. I was like, oh, that makes sense. Well, he would really appreciate this. That's what they said. Look, then they started making the pitch to him, and I just moved back.

And Zach, I just listened. I just listened. Just let the chicken tell. And I thought, this is how Jesus takes over the world. It started off talking about Jesus to people who had no idea. I didn't even know that they were even interested in the Bible or said Jesus. And now all of a sudden, they're like learning how to evangelize in this moment. So I thought it was a positive.

That's pretty interesting. I like it. What was it? It was a red chicken, wasn't it? Red chicken. Red chicken. Yeah, what was the name of Bible study? The red wing chicken.

We should try to get into one. Let's get into one. No, you're talking about what the evolutionists say. What was that? It was a red something. Yeah, that doesn't work. No, no, we have to. Oh, good night.

But go to the Bible study and I'll look it up. All right. I forgot what it was that. Let's talk so Jason won't listen, Zach. So we're in John 19. is where we left off. Actually, Jason, we left off at a place. And Zach, maybe you can lead us in

if you can remember what you were going to say. The very last podcast, we were into this conversation about the crown of thorns. And Jase made the point that the Greek word is not just wearing, but bearing, which is a really interesting thought when you think about the crown of thorns.

And so he went through the whole bit from 1st Corinthians 15, which showed us to, are you found it? The red jungle fowl, 8,000, years ago from Southeast Asia. There it is. Supposedly the origin of what we call the chicken. Right.

So I'm like, well, what was it billions of years ago? It's going to be hard for me to get a chicken. They have some dinosaur they pinned it on. And they've never seen a dinosaur that looked like a chicken. But that's just me. But they're saying that then they became the birds and all the other stuff too. Yeah. So we were in First Corinthians 15 talking about this idea of,

where to bear. And you mentioned something about Amazing Grace origin. Do you remember that what you were thinking? Because you were going to bring that up in this podcast. And then Jace had Romans 417, and then we talked about Second Corinthians

5. So I was just trying to pick us up where we left off last time in that discussion because we didn't quite finish it. What was I going to say? It was John Newton who wrote Amazing Grace. And I can't remember what the point. Whatever it was out. You said, you said,

No, you brought up Second Corinthians five. Look, I did that. Says, who wasn't listening? I remember two days ago and you said, because I want to get into 2nd Corinthians 5 and I went,

ooh, please do. I said that, Judge. All right, well, let me give my point while Zach's thing. He was thinking, he brought up the amazing grace origin into this discussion, but now I can't.

I try to think what it was. I think it was. Because we were talking about bearing the, the new body, the resurrection body, being like Christ. Let me read it again because that verse was so good. I actually shared this with my son last night because look, they were doing a Bible study on 1st John 3.

I should have brought up 1st John 3 3. That's a good one. Because it went in with my point. So let's revisit that in review. I'll read the 1st John 3. when Jesus when John scratch that

when John shared in 1st John 3 he said how great is the love the father has lavished on us that we should be called children of God which is where we're at in the process why is Jesus

being ridiculed abused wearing a crown of thorns spat upon I mean this is God displaying demonstrating his love for us. And so that we could all be children of God. And it says, and that is what we are. And that is what we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it didn't know him.

And I think that fits perfectly to where we're at in John 19. Do you really think that they believed all these powers, the Jewish leaders, pilot, Caiaphas, that he, they knew who he was? Yeah, no idea. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. What does that mean? Well, if you read Romans 8 talking about when it gets, we have the spirit who groans, and then we are waiting on the redemption of our bodies and talking about as children of God were brought into the glorious presence of God. liberated with the creation itself in that little section in Romans 8 so it's all about children that's

what we are children of God so what we will be has not yet been made known that that's going to be a key phrase on where we're going with this but we know that when he appears we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is so they were doing a Bible study on that I said oh did you bring up 1st Corinthians 15 just did a podcast on that and he's like no do you tell look we had a one-hour bible study last night that started right here it was awesome at about 11 o'clock at night and uh this is first corinthians 15 we read this last podcast as was the earthly man so are those who are of the earth and as is the man from heaven so also are those who are of heaven.

That just echoes what we just said, 1 John 3. And this is in the context with what kind of body will we have. Then I made the point of verse 49. The same word that's used for Jesus wearing the crown of thorns in John 19 is used to here twice. And just as we have worn the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we wear the likeness of the man for. heaven. And the problem with understanding, one, what that word means, whether it's to bear something or where something. The problem in 1st John 3 when it says, what we will be has not been

made known. There's not a word in the English, Greek, Hebrew, or any language on the planet that could accurately describe what Jesus' new body is. We're, because we're now, this is why I'm going to Romans for. Because he only spent 40 days here in that body. Not near enough time for us to really get it, understand. Now, we got to have some clues. He said, look at my hands and my feet. But then he went through a door.

Yeah. Well, how does the hands and feet go through a door? Yeah. He then elevated without a rocket. They didn't have rockets back then. But he just went, whoop, levitate. And then he looked like a gardener, and all of a sudden he looked like a gardener, and all of a sudden he looked like himself.

How does that happen? He did that a couple times. A couple times. Then he ate some fish. Yeah. Well, how can you go through a door and eat fish? And I guarantee you he could probably go through a door while eating fish. So how are you going to describe?

Okay. Well, can I just read my verse? And then I'll let you debate me. Because, boy, I hope you push back on this one. Be thinking about what you want to say, Zad. I have not even listening. You're not even listening to my response. Zach, I have literally enhanced my view and definition of the word faith based on this study that started last week.

Yeah. I thought, boy, I missed that. My view of faith was so limited. I always just used it in an argument saying, hey, we're not under law. We're law of faith. I was just using it as a stepstone for God's grace to save me. Like it was some step I had to get through. Oh, yeah, we're safe through faith.

like it was no when you read a verse like what i'm fixed to read faith is way more than you can comprehend in a short period of time and this verse just wowed me and i'm not sure how i missed it in bibles go out but we should have stopped and did a whole course on this so here we have romans four and i'm not going to read the whole chapter it's very dense and complex and talking about the very thing i say that i argue with people about all the time are we understand under law, or has this now through, has Jesus introduced this way of faith? Because that's what the first three chapters were about. Well, right.

Think Romans 8 when it says, we're not under the law of sin and death, but the law of the spirit of life, you know, through faith. And, Zach, how many arguments have you had about that in your life? More than I'm going to remember. But what's this little nugget that's right here in the middle? I mean, I just found this absolutely exhilarating. and I just may want to run through a wall, Al. While eating fish.

While eating fish after I've been dead. I get it. Look, Romans 8, I'll just give a little bit of the context. I mean, no, Romans 4, sorry. Romans 4. I'll give you a little of the context. And just to kind of show you that I'm not just making this up, if you go back, let's just read the context. Let's pick up in verse 13.

It was not through law that Abraham. and his offspring, received the promise, received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that come to our faith. Which is why I said, this is kind of how limited, that's the only way I saw it. For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value, and the promise is worthless.

Because the law brings wrath, and where there is no law, there's no transgression. That's why I always go to this verse when I'm currently debating a guy, I hate to use the word debate, but that's what it is. Yeah. Who believes that we're still under the law. Right. And the last interchange we had, I used this verse. I was like, I would be careful about trying to put myself under something that the Bible clearly says where that is, there's wrath.

Yeah, there's no way out. You know, I mean, what? You tell my pain yourself in a corner. But I'm going down a rabbit hole. Sorry. So therefore it says, therefore the promise comes by. faith so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed. Oh, I just love that. Well, we're involved in. What Jesus is fixing to initiate by dying on a cross and being raised, look, it's by grace

and it's guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring, not only to those who are of the law, but also of those who are of the faith of Abraham. So you're like, okay, this is interesting. He is the father of us all. As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations. He is a father in the sight of God, in whom he believed, and here we go. There's a dash here, and there's this phrase, the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they are or were. What? Let's read that again. He called, no, it's one thing to give life to the dead. That's spectacular.

That's how you can go through a wall and still eat fish somehow, but in cause things that are not as though they were. Well, that's the definition of faith when it says, faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Correct. Just think about the implications of this. All right, I don't know what my, I'm not going to be able to just, describe my body.

But just think about it all through life when you're just like, you don't see a way out. But you're serving and trusting a God who can make something because he is a creator and a new creator. Think about what Jesus is proposing. You're seeing where I'm going this day. As new creations, we're following a God who can call things into being that are not. It's not even in your imagination. It's not even possible due to natural law or gravity or whatever you want to come up with.

And he's like, oh, no, that's what having faith is all about. I'll make it happen. And he's using that from Abraham because he's looking around based on this promise that through your son, all these nations are going to be blessed and now I want you to kill him. Yeah. Well, what? That's not possible. but he somehow had this thought of,

I guess he can make something happen out of nothing because if we kill him, how can my offspring come? He must, he's going to walk through a wall eating fish. You know, to just use that analogy. That's a big verse, a big text. I've actually stumbled across that as well, Jace, and that it was Romans 4 that fundamentally shifted my view of faith as well in conjunction probably with the book of James and also Genesis 22, which is what you just mentioned about

Abraham offering up Isaac as a sacrifice. And then also Hebrews 11 plays into this because Hebrews 11 gives it. Like you don't like if you want to know the thought process of Abraham, I love this by the way, because this is like the best text for understanding what faith is, is this, that Abraham, according to the Hebrew writer, he figured that God would raise Isaac from the dead, and that's why he sacrificed him. And the reason why he thought that he would raise him from the dead,

and figuratively speaking, the Hebrew writer says he did raise Isaac from the dead, but he was relying on the promise of God. So he knew that God wasn't a liar. And so when he's called to sacrifice his child, Isaac, he's like, I don't really know how this is going to play out, though, because you've told me you're going to give me descendants that are as numerous as the stars in the sky. Now you're telling, through Isaac, through Isaac, shall your offspring be reckoned. So it's actually through this actual person that's going to happen. Now you're saying, kill him. And so I love the mindset there of Abraham because he thought

that God was raising him from the dead, but that's not what God did. What God actually did, if you go back and read Genesis 22, is he put a ram in the thicket, and there's a substitutionary sacrifice that was offered in place of Isaac. But I love the fact that Abraham got it wrong and still got it right. And I think that's the whole point of faith.

Faith is not knowing how God's going to do what God's going to do. It's just knowing that God will do what he's going to do. And one of the big arguments that I've gotten in over the years about this is when you think about the idea of, is it faith or is it works? Is it the law or is it grace? And we're trying to oppose these two things against one another. If you read the text here in Romans 4, it actually says that no one, now to the one who works,

it says wages are not counted to him as a gift, but as his due, and to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. And so if you get in these theological discussions, people are like, well, faith is a, they try to position faith as if it's a work, but it's not. Like to believe in the promise of God, you're not doing anything. Like you're not conjuring up anything. It's just I'm simply believing in the revelation of God. So God tells me, hey, this is what I'm going to do.

I may not know how he's going to do it. I just believe that he is going to do it. But you do believe it to a point where, you're then faithful. Because when you read Hebrews 11, you know, he defines faith, which he brings up the Abraham story, just like you did.

But then he also says, by faith, like, let's just take Noah. When warned about things not yet seen, which, think about this, what we, on what I just read, they hadn't even seen rain yet. And Noah gets, It's a message from God that you need to build an arc.

Now, in our 2000-year culture, we're like, oh, because it may flood. It has never rained on the earth yet. Not only did he want him to build an arc, he had to believe in something that he couldn't even comprehend or say. And by the way, it took 100 years to build it. So he believed it. And what I'm saying is that Hebrews 11 is very clear. He built that arc.

Yeah. because his belief, what Zach just said, then provided the faithfulness to actually trust something you cannot see. But I love that idea about growing into something you can't imagine because it's like, that's why he keeps using the term children. You know, you have a child and you look at it, and you can see some qualities of either your husband or your wife or both of you in the face of your child. But you have no idea what that child is going to look like once. it grows into full maturity in adulthood. And you watch that process go, and then they look at it, they say,

he looks just like his dad, or she looks just like her mom. And you watch the likeness happen as a child grows. That's what faith does. That's what Jesus says, look, if you'll just start out with a mustard seed size, I promise you you can grow into something that will tell a mountain to move.

Yeah. The key there is the growth. You look at the process of Romans 4, you get to the end of Romans 4 and he says that Abraham, there was not any unbelief that made him waiver concerning the promise of God. So you think about the promise of God as well, you're going to have a bunch of grandkids. So everything that would come at Abraham that would stop that from happening, that would be the unbelief. And Abraham's like, nope, I believe in the promise of God. Even if I can't see how it's going to happen, I still believe in it. And he said, well, how did he do it?

this is a key verse because you think, well, how do I, but don't believe? What if my faith is just the mustard seed? How do I, how do I grow that faith? How does that faith grow into something really substantial? And I'm thankful for the ESV version because it really tells us how in the very next verse, and this is in Romans 420, it said Abraham grew strong in his faith as he gave Lori God. And they think, how in the world can my faith grow? You give glory to God. Well, how does that grow my faith? Because as I submit to the revelation of the Holy Spirit, as I submit to him, then what happens is, it may be a very small faith. It may be like a mustard seed, but I'm going to go out there and I'm going to submit to God in this one thing. I don't know how you're going to do it, God. I have no

clue how you're going to do it. But I'm going to trust you, and I'm going to submit this part of my life to you. And then every time you do that, 100% of the time you do that, God shows up and you taste His glory in fuller measure. And then you're like, whoa, I just tasted the Lord. And that was really good. I want to do that again. And so you go deeper and deeper and deeper. So faith is not a transactional thing that God looks at and says, good boy, Abraham. Now I give you a token of righteousness because you prove. No, that's not it. Exactly. Exactly. The reward is that you actually trust in the provision of God. And then you get to receive the provision. And the more of the provision that you receive, the more your faith grows because I've been eating this feast of provision over here.

I've been eating this manna that's falling out of heaven. I know guys going to take care of me. And your faith grows. Which is why we should be giving people a little more grace who we disagree with on some of these things. Because faith is a growth process. It is. Go ahead. Yeah, no, I was just going to read the next few words after the verse you read,

against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and therefore became the Father of many nations. So a lot of times you think, well, this is a hopeless situation. Okay, so in hope, why don't you believe God has something in store? You see what I'm saying? There really is no hopeless situation. Well, you know what I found fascinating? I know we're out of time, and I saw this make this one point. Take a drink.

Is earlier in the chapter four, Zach, he makes this point in 10 and 11 that he had faith before he was circumcised. And then after, and he said, so he became a model to both the uncircumcised and the circumcised. So I made a point in this legal argument I'm having with the person who's trying to be under the law. I's like, well, if this is true, because I was more, my argument is more, Jesus was with God before the beginning. The nation of Israel and the law was not. It didn't come till Abraham in Genesis 12. And I'm like, but in Hebrews 11, he's talking about Noah. Well, he didn't have the law.

They were having opportunities to show their faith. And it's the same point here, which he hasn't responded yet. But still, don't you think that's a good point? I had never thought about that. I thought you can trace the origin of faith because that's what he did in Hebrews 11. All the way back, he first talked. talks about Abel, given better sacrifices. Yeah, some things predate.

Like marriage is another one. Yeah. We're out of time. Take another drink. We'll see you next time. I'm not ashamed. No, you're supposed to finish your drink. Oh, you finish it?

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