Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1210 | Beyond Denominations: The Biblical Reality of Christ

Episode Date: November 17, 2025

In this episode: Romans 4, verse 17; Hebrews 2, verses 14–18; 1 Samuel 5, verses 1–7; Daniel 7, verses 9–14; Revelation 1, verses 12–16; 2 Corinthians 5, verses 10–21; John 19, verses 5–16; Revelation 12, verse 11; Deuteronomy 17, verses 14–20; 1 Samuel 8, verses 4–22; Romans 1, verses 18–20 Chapters 00:00-08:49 Christianity can't coexist with communism 08:50-18:06 The extremes of Christianity & Islam 18:07-32:42 Son of Man or Son of God? 32:43-37:40 Jesus’ humanity destroyed death 37:41-44:01 The greatest thing Charlie Kirk ever said 44:02-50:50 Jesus is for EVERYONE! 50:51-56:51 How to be Christ’s ambassador — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. Zach, I know this will be airing probably a week from we're recording it. So it'll be a little bit of a past event. But I couldn't have a notice last night. I was watching the sort of, I guess they were like many election returns. There was not a ton of elections last night, but there were a few. And one of the big stories, I think, that came out of it, that I'm sure,

people still be talking about a week later was that for the first time ever a major of our biggest city i guess in america elected a a marxist uh what would you call it a marxist well how did he uh classify himself he said a democratic socialist he said a democratic socialist but his conversa all of his past speeches that i've been saying he sounds very marxist to me no that was a quote he said he said i'm he said And I'm, what was it? It was something like a Muslim, democratic socialist and the, and the most damning part of the whole thing is I'm proud of it or something like that. I'm not, I'm not going to apologize for it. So yeah, it's kind of interesting.

The, it is kind of crazy to think about how, how Marxist philosophy has infiltrated, you know, in our country. Well, it's just, I mean, just in my lifetime. I mean, I'm 60. I would have never, when I got engaged in politics in the 80s, I would have never imagined this happening. And yet, the sign of the rise on the far left side of our political spectrum is a very powerful voice of people that, I mean, this is the way they want to go. And it won't work. I mean, that's the problem with, I mean, like everywhere around the world, it proves that it won't work. I mean, it's just going to want to be in bad.

So, yeah, there, there's been studies that have been done on how many people have been murdered under communist regimes. Oh, it's Lenin, Stalin, Paul Potts. I mean, you look at it, China, and it's over a hundred. Just a little island. Cuba, Fidel Castro. Yeah, it's been, it has been a vehicle of death. Over a hundred million people have been murdered under communist regimes and through communist economic philosophy. And so it is a very dangerous, dangerous worldview that I do think stands opposed to the gospel of Christ. I know that's debatable inside the church, unfortunately. It shouldn't be. I mean, you just look at the math. I mean, it doesn't bear witness to Christ. And I think mainly because of what we talked about in the last podcast, Jason talked about, just thinking about this now, he had mentioned a verse out of Romans 4 about how God, what was it, God takes things that aren't there and makes, like,

creates out of cause them into being. Yeah, yeah. It's like, because I was just thinking about, you know, think about how many people just say, like, let's, when they make their confession,

you know, Jesus is Lord and you baptize them, you know, and they don't really, I mean, they're happy, but they're like, what just happened?

But something just got called into being that God classifies over and over as a new creation. That just happened. and you believe it. And you're like, what happened? Like, all my sins are gone. My old self just died.

These are things that you believe to be true, even though you don't physically see that that happened. That is the definition of faith. It's being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we don't see. That just happened. Yeah. Yeah, and if you don't understand that principle of that economy of God,

like that's a fact of God's economy. is that God can create things out of nothing and he can make things appear that aren't there. And so as a Christian, one of the, well, probably the greatest contribution to Christianity to economics is that we actually believe that wealth is not a static thing.

It's not like we have a pie that we're all trying to eat a piece of the pie. We're fighting over what piece I get. No, we actually believe that the pie can get bigger and wealth can be created and wealth can be generated because that's what God does. And so as vice regents,

the way this ties into our conversation on the kingdom is that as vice regents of his presence here, right, where we serve that priestly role. We're like Adam, who was supposed to take the garden and do what with it, cultivate it and expand it across the globe.

You expand the wealth of the garden. You don't, you don't, it's not a net sum game. And so our role as believers is actually to participate in the expansion of the garden. It's what we're doing. So we can't buy into a lie that says,

nope, there's only this amount of resources that we're competing over, and you better get yours. And if they got theirs and you didn't get yours, if they got theirs, it's because you didn't get yours. That is not the way of the cross. It is not the way of the kingdom. And it's why the end result of it is a death work.

Marxism is an evil death work. And you know why, Zach, it's because, and this is the quiet part out loud, it's always been godless as well. There's no God in this. And I'll give you the perfect... Well, I think he believes... I mean, I don't know what Muslims believe.

But I'm saying he believes in a God. What is the name of the Muslim guy? Allah. Allah, yeah. Well, and maybe he does. And maybe I don't know enough about that. No, I'm just saying he said... I'm saying if you're a Marxist,

that the one thing there I say... seed the most is godlessness. And here's why. It always relies on government to be your God. And so, but my perfect rebuttal to that is disaster relief. I mean, Zach, you just went through it last year. Who shows up first and who stays the longest? Is it the government or is it the kingdom of God? You tell me, is that? Yeah, it's, yeah, it was the government. I mean, it's the kingdom people for sure show first. They're always the first ones there. and they're always there still working after everybody else is left. But what's inherently embedded into a communist worldview,

into a Marxist worldview, Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, they were the architects of this particular worldview. And what's embedded in it is the idea that everything is material and that there is a static, meaning that there is a finite, meaning there is a sum that doesn't change.

So that that's the, problem with it is that they think we're all competing over a limited supply of resources. When what the capitalists who are greatly influenced by the Reformation movement, what I think in the and the whole birth of kind of free market systems is that it's the understanding that the wealth can actually be created. And an example of this is, I can't remember which president did this, but you know, used to they had this, we had this industry called the telecom industry. we had these things called telephones

and you'd pick them up and you know you had the wire attached to it and you didn't know who was on the other end until you actually started speaking to him you didn't know yeah kids don't know about this there were these things called telephone companies there was a company you remember the company who's your telephone company

Bell South was one and then they came in and they said we're going to we're going to deregulate these things and because they formed a monopoly and everybody freaks out and they're like you're going to destroy the telecom industry by letting people, like, compete like this. You're going to kill the industry.

And sure enough, they killed the industry. But in its place came a whole other industry that we didn't even know existed. It didn't exist. There wasn't cell phones and Apple and all the, I mean, so it's like a whole other thing, a behemoth that swallowed the telecom ministry whole a hundred times came in its place. Why? Because wealth is created. And, and this is, economies are created and everybody's lifted out of poverty when we do this. It's not whatever this indie game is that the core Marxism. I think what you're going to see in New York City, well, I know you're going to see it. You're going to see this experiment is going to be a major, major failure in New York City.

We're just watching to see what happens over the next few years. And we're all going to be like, wow, that's horrible. Well, it does show you an impact on why we need people fighting on the front. lines and we've been given some shout-outs to our good friends at FRC, which is Family Research Council, who have really been a champion of truth for a long time in D.C. On D.C. On behalf, protecting children, defending faith, religious liberty. So we want you to especially think about giving to these guys, FRC.org slash unashamed. Through the end of the year, there's a double impact when you give because of matching funds. So check those guys out,

FRC.org slash unashamed. Yeah, they actually are, some of the people I talk to said it's a fulfillment of prophecy. Ooh. Yeah, because there was a movie that came out a few years ago, and it was called Escape from New York. And that now, I thought that was funny. That's pretty funny. And it has now been fulfilled, run. But it does give you a mission field.

But I wonder the point I was going to make to you, Al, about. It's the way the spiritual forces of evil work, and they've always worked. The first thing you do is get another God that's not the God of this Bible. Correct. That is not a triune God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, that can justify what you're going to do. And the results of that is going to be death and destruction. Yeah, exactly. That's what happens.

And that's why I said, oh, no, they, when you said there's no, there's a God. there's a God involved. It's just not the God of this Bible. That's a good point. A good point. Let me say something real quick on that, because that's a huge point, because only in a triune God can you have what I'm talking about. So think about the very nature of God, his very nature.

You have a lover, the father. You have the one who is loved or the beloved, which is the son. And then the love between them is an actual person that spills out into more love. And so like by the very nature of their being, like the nature of God of a triune God by this very nature, by his very nature is a fountain that overflows into eternal love. And so that is, that's the idea. It's it's a constant source of not only being, but just like like life, vibrant life pouring out. Whereas a God who is singular and he's just one person, there's no love. There's no overflow.

It's just consume, consume, consume. And I think that is the key distinction between the Christian God and all of the other false gods that world religions would propagate. And if you want to look and see the impact, look at where the extremes take. Jason, the last podcast, you talked about the extremes of Christendom, Christianity and quotes, become xenophobic, and we don't agree with anything you're said,

and we won't recognize you. You know, that's our extreme. The extremes of what we're talking about with Islam is if you're an infidel, we'll kill you. And that's happening on the globe right now. In fact, we'll find our version of heaven by killing you. So, yeah, it's a very dangerous thing. Look in Nigeria right now. I mean, this is like a real thing that's happening in the world.

This is a real issue. Exactly. Well, I was going to say echoing what Zach said about the triune God and having the relationship and opportunities to love. Well, two of his greatest qualities, and I'm talking about God, is that he's a creator. He can make something from nothing,

and he's a communicator. Just think about how he communicates. You know, you think Romans 1, where he literally communicates without saying a word just based on creation, because people that don't even believe God in the back of their mind, they're looking around thinking,

man, if this is, just came from a random explosion. Yeah. I mean, there, people know there's some life-giving force. The evidence is too overwhelming that this couldn't have just happened. So, but not only that, he communicated ultimately by becoming a human. Jesus. And just think of getting the Bible organized.

That's right. Communicating through spirit-led, flawed humans throughout the course of history that we hit on in the last podcast. But so that one, my whole point for saying that is, is people like Charlie Kirk, you say, how come that guy? I mean, granted, he had practiced debate and all this. But you know what made him so smart? He's getting his material from the creator of the universe.

Yeah. And look, I do the same Q&As. You've done that. I get up there and I have no idea what they're going to ask me. Right. And there's very few times that I've just in the moment thought, oh, I don't have anything to say because I'm using this book in front of me to answer the questions. And people are like, well, it's a pretty good answer. You know, I mean, they got an answer for everything.

Yep, there's pretty much an answer for everything. Sounds like a first period of 315 to me. And it always results in good news. At the end of the day, it's like, well, you know, how come this is right? That's why we're pushing back on this. That's not going to work. It's not going to work. Because we're looking, like you said, good point.

Where does that lead to? The radical side of that is they're killing people in the name of God and don't know them and just randomly just because they disagree. You're dead and we're wiping you off. And we're being rewarded from our God. Who's dead? Yeah. He didn't raise from the dead.

Right. Which is, what is your plan B strategy for this type of religion? I think the word, Jesus, confidence. you're confident to be able to give answers. So, yeah, and I just wanted to reiterate that point. I think all the other gods are dead, and I'm saying we have one that creates, and he still creates.

He makes new creation, because I want to get to that 2nd Corinthians 5 at some point, but, and he also, that communicate, just think we have a guy that's communicating with us from the dead because he came back. alive. Our God's alive. Right. Has a body. Has something you can relate to and is not just hocus, pocus, flying around in a spirit.

Like, what are you going to do? I'm like, well, you know, I'm just going to be a gaseous mess floating around doing stuff. You can't do anything without a body or something to express yourself. Right. Or we'll simply say, you know, he was a great prophet and therefore we're following the beliefs of the prophet. But over time, that gets watered into a lot of things. but if you have a living God that's, you know, alive and giving you information via his spirit. That's always my first question. I'm like, now this guy you're following, is he dead right now? And they're like, well, yeah, he's dead.

I was like, well, I'm out. Yeah. Yeah, if the guy you're following is dead, because our guy's alive. Whatever you're fixing to say, we've got to deal with this point right here. Is your guy dead? They're like, he's dead. Yeah, we're studying in our Hillsdale study. were studied in 1st, Samuel 5.

And you think about, we were talking about Dagon. Remember the little God? And they kept having to, he kept falling down before the ark. And finally they nailed his feet to the, you know, if you have to nail your God's feet to the floor to keep him from falling down, probably need to think bigger. Well, I'm out. Yeah, got to think bigger. I left.

Our God's alive. And that's a good thing. All right. So we're going to veer back. We've kind of chased one of Jason's rabbit holes. Are you blaming me for that? Well, you did the wear the crown. Yeah.

No, I'm not talking about the political, I'm talking about the last three podcasts. The wear and bear, which was great thought, Jay, is that. It was really good. And we didn't get to it, but if you want to expand that,

if you were really into that, go read Second Corinthians 5. Well, I'll figure out a creative way to go back to Second Corinthians 5 because I'm dying to do it again. It's so good. But I'll wait for the perfect moment. All right, so we'll bring that back up.

So we've been in John 19. We read down to verse 16, a couple of podcasts ago. So we're in this sort of what I call the last trial. Well, do you want to talk about the here's the man? Yes.

We hadn't done that. That's right where we left off. Okay. Well, he just says that early on. Well, he's in verse 5, but that's what I'm saying, we never got past your crown of thorns. Yeah.

So right after he's wearing the crown of thorns in the same verse, actually, that then we kind of did a rabbit hole on. He says, pilot says, here is the man. Yeah. And we've alluded to us. couple of times that, because I mentioned N.T. Wright said in his study, which is the first time

I had really thought about it, about that this is like a proclamation moment. I mean, it's just bigger than just him saying, all right, here's a man. Like, he's basically, here's a, here's a gentile governor who's validating what the Jews, who the Jews have been looking for since Daniel two. Yeah. It's hundreds of years. He's like, here's the man. Now, he does it in a mocking way, because he's got the crown on, he's got the robe. Yeah, there's no doubt he was mocking him. Yeah. But when you go back and read that John 114,

and this is a profound statement. It is. Because here's the word becoming flesh, doing something sacrificially and suffering. And here you have the guy who's going to contribute, even though he said he's not, to Jesus dying. He's like, here's the man. And that word man is why that we all perked up

because there's a debate that's been going on probably since this was written down about, well, is God, was Jesus God or was He a man? Well, and there's been so many people try to answer that question. So it's interesting you brought up NT, right, because I watch a lot of Q&As since I do a lot of them. Because that's a, that was real nervous for me when I first started doing that. You're in a crowd of 2,000 people, and they're like stepping up to the mic. And it's uncomfortable.

Because you never know if they're going to say, does Uncle Syed drink sweet tea or unsweet tea? or is it going to be like a really tough, like theological? It could be anything in a Q&A. So Missy and I, we're having an event coming up where we're doing a Q&A, and she's so nervous about it. And I'm excited because I love them now. I'm the same way. But she's like, oh, no.

And I was like, babe, just if you don't want to answer, look at me. And I was like, there's nothing wrong with saying I don't know. And I have said that in the Q&A. But I watched one of his, and this was one of the greatest. response is to a difficult question. The question was, according, I wrote it down, according to the Gospels, they seemed to highlight more Jesus as the son of man. So this guy had been reading his Bible, because that is true. He referenced himself when we've made that point that he was the son of man. You had the actual number of few pockets.

In between 80 and 100, depending on, you know, how you want to look at them, being repeated. They seem to highlight Jesus more as the man than his proclaim divinity, which is true. Jesus, but he did refer to himself. The other phrase that he referred to himself as was, I am. Well, there's your divinity. That's what I think people are missing. I would also argue that the reference, son of man does not necessarily mean a reference to his humanity. I think it's primarily a reference to Daniel.

The Messiah. Well, Zach, look, we all agree that it's referencing that. But I think the reference Daniel made that, because I think that goes back to Genesis 315 when he said, from the offspring of this woman, we will ultimately defeat Satan. I'm paraphrasing, but that's what he's saying. Well, through men, I'm going to, he's going to be, become a man. Yeah. And so if you want to push back from that, I don't like the word but in what you're

fixed to say. I'm not saying, I'm not saying that he's not a man, but I'm saying that Daniel's prophecy is a prophecy of authority, kingship, dominion. So yes, it's on earth. So it is, it is, it is his humanity. If you read the prophecies, what you're getting as someone who's appearing before the ancient of days and who is given the kingdom and who has put all things under his feet. So it's actually...

I'm not arguing that. I'm not arguing that. But as a man, he became a man, is all I'm saying. I agree, but it's what he's going to receive after the resurrection. And so I think it's a fuller picture. And so Jesus is stepping into the role as it's almost like an unfolding of the son of man. What you're saying, Zach, it's not either or it's both an, which I agree. Well, we're all agreeing.

Well, I guess what I'm pushing back on a little bit is because I believe part of the atonement process, I'm probably on an island on this and I, you know, hey, y'all got to love me anyway. But I believe when the book of Hebrews, when you read all those passages, there's three of them specifically that says he when he entered heaven itself on our behalf based on Hebrews 2 talking about why he became a human Hebrews 2 is very clear that he chose to become part of the human family in every one in every oh it's just it's a great chapter so when he entered heaven itself he then made available the presence of the father for humans.

Where it wouldn't destroy you. So I think that's why I tend to, and I'm going to read his answer, which is, I agree in both. Yes, he was God and he was going to have the authority. But I think the reason he became a man is to make the presence of God accessible for humans. Because when you go back to Moses, remember that problem when he's like, oh, you can't look at me.

There was a problem with humans in our form. being able to enter, and because of our wickedness, being able to enter the presence of God, but Jesus made all of that come true. And I realize that he has a body that is not earthly, but it is a body. He had hands and feet. He's a man. He became a man and he'll be a man forever, but he's God in an authority way. But he did that so that humans could access and live forever with God.

It shows us the potential for. eternal. Well, think about, I think, it's not really a pushback. I think it's just an echoing of what you're saying. So if you, if you read,

I want to read two verses. One is in Daniel 7, when he says he looked, and thrones were set in place. And the ancient of days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow. The hair of his head was white like wool.

His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all. ablaze and a river of fire was flowing coming out from before him thousands upon thousands attended him tens of thousands upon tens of thousands stood before him the court was seated and all the books were open and so then you read in Revelation 1 he says I turned to see a voice that was speaking to me this is John the Revelator not Daniel now and turning I see seven golden lampstands and in the midst of the lampstand guess what one like a son of man

clothed with a long robe and a golden sash around his chest. The hairs of his head were white like wool like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like bronze burnished bronze refined in the furnace. And his voice was like the roar of many waters. In his right hand, he held seven stars. And from his mouth came a two-edged sword. And his face was like the sun shining in its full strength.

So you think, man, it sounds a whole lot like the ancient of days. but when you go back to Daniel 7, he continues and says, I am my night vision. He said, I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man. With the coming of the clouds of heaven, he approached the ancient of days and was led into his presence, and he was given authority and glory and sovereign power, all nations and peoples with every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away,

and His kingdom is one that will not be destroyed. So what's weird is you get confused when you read Revelation 1 because the picture that he paints of the Son of Man, who's it looked like in Daniel 7? It looks like the Ancient of Days, the one that the Son of Man appeared to. And I think what is happening here is to your point. It's in Christ, in the risen Christ, the victorious Christ, who is ascended to the right hand of the Father who mediates for us.

It's in Him now that we can actually. see the face of God. That's why the image of the Son of Man and Revelation 1 sounds a whole lot like the ancient of days. All right. The perfect answer, because I was beginning to wonder where you were going to that, but that is the perfect segue, and I 100% agree. And it's the perfect segue to read his answer to this question.

So now that we asked the question 10 minutes ago, I'll say it again because I forgot. The question was, according to the gospel, so he's asking N.T. Wright. They seem to highlight more Jesus as the son of man than him proclaiming his divinity. So what does that mean to us? So here's the quote that N.T. Right. Here's how he answered the question off the top of his head. He didn't know that guy was going to ask that. He said, I don't know how to answer that question.

It's like saying breathing is more. more important than the circulation of the blood. And it was just, it was a five-second pause, and then everybody laughed. And it's like, yeah, God becoming a man, it's like, why is that stressed in some places and some other, and we debated? And he's like, it's literally, and I love the metaphors there that he was saying. And he was using something that we take for granted, breathing and the circulation of blood, which was also a representation of God breathing life into people through creation and the

circulation of the blood, Jesus down on the cross. It's pretty good. Oh, I thought it was just, now that's next level Q&A. I'm talking about that was a mic drop moment. I've never said something that good at Q&A. No, no, I haven't either. I've said some good things, but I've never seen that. I mean, did he have that in his arsenal?

Yeah, was that just off the top? I just thought, what an answer. Now, that's a good answer. And no fanfare, it was such a good answer. I wrote it down. Oh, yeah. You know what I would have, if I'd have been sitting on that Q&A and after that, after that response that they had looked at me and said,

what do you think? You know what I'd have said? What he said? I said what he said. Sometimes you don't try to type it. No, it was a fan. I wanted to. I'm glad this went here because I wanted to bring that up.

I do think it's interesting that we're in this context where Pilate says, here's the man. And we said we both think he was being sort of facetious about him saying it. Because you remember he says he's the king of the Jews. And then they're like, don't say that. We don't, you know, we don't claim him as a king. But then the idea is that to your point about authority comes up a little bit later that we read. Because Pilate says, don't you realize I have the authority, the power.

he says, the authority to free you or crucified. And he's like, he privately, he says, don't you realize I'm the man? That's what he's saying. Oh, yeah. And then Jesus says, well, you would only have this authority unless it was given to you from somebody else. So really, you don't really have it.

And then he said, then he makes the point, he says, that's why the ones who turn me over to you are committing a greater sin. What Jesus is saying is, they should know my authority. They should. They should know. That's been my whole point about this. You know, are we following the law, you know, the Torah now, or we following Jesus?

I mean, just think about that statement. These are the religious leaders saying, we bow down to Caesar. Yeah. They just said that. Yeah. There's no other God but Caesar. You're talking about false gods. You're talking about violating the First Commandment.

You just did it. Exactly. I mean, we started this off with a political discussion. That would be like me saying. Yeah. Just because, you know. Hey, Trump's my Lord. Yeah, Trump's my Lord.

and I mean, you would like, no, no, there's no way. He got that authority from somewhere else. And I think that's a key, key point. I'm glad you brought it up. But the kingdom is political. This is the thing that I just can't get around it. And so I know that there's been all this conversation about, you know, Christian nationalism. But the truth is, if you are a Christian and you really believe in the supremacy of Christ,

you're going to make ethics claims. You're going to make claims about the way the world should be in the process. public square. So it doesn't really matter what position you take on that. We're all going to wind up with some form of that, right? And the reason why is because of, I think, what's going on here, is that he's talking about a kingdom. He's talking about a king. And mockingly, he's saying King of the Jews. And I think that, you know, there's some mocking going on here. But Jesus actually is the king. Like, that's the thing. The N.T. Wright's whole, like, premise of his whole work is is that the Gospels are the story of how God became king.

And that's really the whole story of what we're seeing here. And the way that he does that, now this is the part that I think is what is hard for us when we try to enter into the conversation about politics, is that the way that God becomes king is through the cross. The way that God becomes king is by laying down his life. The way that God becomes king is by dying for his enemies. And that's the part that I think when we get into the discussion on this that nobody really wants to deal with.

Because if that's how he became king and I'm under his governance and I'm a vice region of his kingdom, guess what that calls me to do? Same thing. Out of myself, not for my enemy. Well, and I would throw in the resurrection. But I think that's a good segue. I think one of the greatest things that Charlie Kirk ever said when asked about what his true motivation is, there's two things. he said, Jesus is the Lord of my life. He is my king.

And number two, I want to be able to freely express that, which is what the political angle was. Now, you can say what you want to about the man, but when asked what he was all about, he put that in the proper order. He's like, this is why I share Jesus, and this is why I'm involved in politics. because I want to be able to be free to do it. And it really echoes the verse I was referring to Zach about Hebrews 2.14 when it says, since the children have flesh and blood, he too, talking about Jesus, shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is the devil,

and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the devil. their fear of death. And I bring that up to say, throw in Ephesion 6, we started off talking about, you know, the mayor, the recently elected mayor in New York that we are saying, I don't think that was a good idea. Right. People. But always remember this. Our spiritual battle is not against flesh and blood. And Jesus, the Hebrew writer, brings that out real clear here. There's spiritual forces of evil at work. You're seeing them at work. And Jesus' own death. There's people in power that are insulting the creator of the universe in human form. How dare you? He literally could strike them all dead. But he chose, to Zach's point, not to do that and give his life in the

greatest act of love ever given, not in the manner of death as much as it was that who he was doing this. Who was hanging on the cross? Who was being abused? Who was being ridiculed? Who was being talked down? And so then to come full circle, I do believe, as spirit-filled people and followers of Jesus, we have the same responsibility to be like Jesus on this earth and speak truth to power, the powers of this dark world where people are advocating something that is contrary to the gospel of Jesus and who is rightfully king. Well, unfortunately, we have a God who has such patience and forbearance is even though we make poor decisions like we believe one was just made, that he'll still love people and give you an

opportunity to learn from your mistakes and bounce back. Yeah. Because, you know, you read Jason on a previous podcast from Deuteronomy 17, whenever Moses said, by word of God, don't get a king. That's the worst thing you could ever do, because if you do, here's the tyranny that's going to happen to you. But they did it anyway. They did it anyway.

And God later on said, I regret that decision, which I don't think the word regret means what we think. it wasn't like he changed his mind on it. He was just basically knew that was going to happen and said, well, you're going to have to deal with the consequences. But he does say that. I think it's in 1st Samuel 8 maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But this is a perfect place to go to 2ndthians 5, because I want to say this, though, to Zach's point. Like Charlie Kurt, if you go out there and start going public for Jesus, and we've all done that, you're going to have to deal with the fear of losing your life. this is part of it. We see what they did to Jesus. You saw what they did to Charlie Kirk,

because you can say, oh, well, it was because he was political. But no, when you share Jesus, I just told you what he's all about. And anybody with a simple Google search can see where he said that 100 times. That's what he was all about. Because you know why, Jay's, he believed, just like we all do sitting at this table,

that in Revelation 12-11, when it says you combat the evil one by the blood of the lamb, the word of your testimony, and the fact you don't love this life so much, you would shrink back from anything, including death itself. And I just read it in Hebrews, too. He said, he liberated you from the fear of death that captivates you.

So there's no excuse for you not going out there and sharing Jesus, but he promised you and I'm promised you. When you do that, you will be persecuted. You're going to be threatened, persecuted, and you possibly could be killed. It could be. And it's not like it's winning a lottery ticket. It's the threat.

is real. I mean, we've been shot at now. Oh, yeah. We've been threatened. I got a bullet. I got a bullet out of my pulled. I've been physically assaulted. I mean, you know, we just go down the list. So that, I was trying to find a creative way to go to 2ndthinth 5, and this is a different place to go there, but I'm going to do it. And it says in 2ndthians 510, for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is to do him, whether good or bad. So then it says, since then, we know what it is to fear the Lord. And that's a respectful fear, because we're all going to stand before him. We try to persuade men.

And that's all men, whether there are some kind of political power or whatever. Anybody. And it says, what we are is playing to God. and I hope it's plain to your conscience. We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again. We preach Jesus, is the point, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seeing

rather than what is in the heart. And now we're getting back to this faith thing. That's it. Then it says if we're out of our mind, it is for the sake of God. They're being accused of just being out of their mind. People are crazy. Yeah.

Well, look, it is crazy to go out there and declare Jesus as Lord to anybody and everybody. That is literally deemed crazy. But he's like, we don't have that fear because we're being more fearful of the expectation of standing before God and him saying, what about it? So then it says, verse 14, here's where I was getting to. for Christ's love compels us to Zach's point. I mean, that is what compelled us, that Jesus did the very thing that we're discussing here. He went up to the earthly powers and he took it on the chin and then even dying. He didn't promise vengeance, I'm going to get you.

He said, Father, forgive him, which shows you what this next statement is really all about. And there's a lot of beliefs out there under the umbrella of Christianity who need to read this next couple of verses a thousand times because they're preaching the exact opposite. And I'm not happy about it, but I'm not going to name them by name. For Christ's love compels us because we are convinced that one died for all. Well, who is that? Everybody.

That's everybody, but who died? Christ. He died for all. and therefore all died. And the point I'm saying that people are saying on the umbrella of Christianity is they're like, well, that don't mean he died for everybody, only the ones that, you know, he chose from the beginning. Well, the next verse debunks that.

And he died for all that those who have, who live should no longer live for themselves, but for him who died for them and was raised again. Well, there he addresses the people who decide to embrace Jesus dying for him. He's like, he died for all, and therefore all died. You say, I mean, he's all. That's everybody. And why did he die for all? Those who say, okay, I'm not going to live for myself anymore.

In fact, I'll put myself to death. I'm going to put myself to death because I died there with him on the cross. And you said, well, how did that happen? I don't know. Through faith, I'm trusting that it happened because he said, said it happened. I know I'm a sinful person. I know he wasn't, and he said, I'm going to die for all. And therefore, guess what? You're dying here with me on the cross. If you want to embrace that, you'll no longer live for yourself, but you'll live for the one who died and was

raised again. So from now on, we regard no one from a worldly point of view. You're like, what does that mean? It's not a worldly, Anything in this earth and this world that you're putting your faith and trust in is going to end in death and destruction. So would you say, so would you say then to that person, if we don't view anyone from a worldly view, would we view them under what you just read, that Christ died for him? Christ died for. Yep. That's another evidence. Thank you, Zach, for making that point because it is, that should be an all caps.

That is, that is the contrast, right? Contact. Look, look. You know what's funny to me is people read this and say they don't mean all? Three verses before, which is why I started there, it said, we must all appear before the throne judgment seat of Christ that each one may receive and then whether you've been good or bad. Well, does that mean everybody?

Oh, well, that means everybody. But four verses later, that doesn't mean everybody. Come on. Get off that. You're making Christ look bad. by believing that. This is one point that I just have to stop and say, if you're believing that, read this and realize God wrote this

and say, okay, I was wrong about that. Let's move on and let's never talk about it again. But then it gets better because it says, though we once regarded Christ in this way, well, we have evidence of this in his encounters with the powers that be. Are they viewing him from a early point of view or from a heavenly point of view? Very worldly. Oh, they're like, here's the man.

Here's the man. Look at him. He's your king, but not my king. Looks like a king, doesn't he? Oh, if you only knew. But watch this. Because faith is believing in things not seen. It's a God who not only can raise the dead,

but he can call things into being that are not, Romans 417. We do so no longer. Therefore, and here's the whole, just where it all gets so good for us, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. And that's why I made this whole point about God. His greatest qualities is he's a creator and he's a communicator. He communicated his love in Jesus, and then he creates new people in Christ. The old has gone.

The old has gone. The new has come. And then this whole picture of why Jesus is doing this is summed up. All this is from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. Well, what is the ministry of reconciliation? He's already said it. We try to persuade men. That's what we do.

We're trying to persuade him to take a look at Christ, that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them, and he's given us the greatest message ever. He's committed to us the message of reconciliation. To Zach's earlier point, we are there for Christ ambassadors. We are royal representations, which is your political link here. That's what they call people who go represent the U.S. They're like, well, Trump said, well, we sent an ambassador over there to do that. Well, we're the ambassadors of heaven, the heavenly man that was here on this earth.

we are therefore that Christ ambassadors as though God were making his appeal through us well how are you going to make the appeal if you're not out there speaking about it in the world it's not for a cave or a building tucked away and like oh this is our thing and we're doing this in secret doesn't work that way okay I got into it you did it and then I do like that that section began, which you just ended it there. So we fix our eyes, 418, so we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but what is unseen. The idea about that, which is why Jesus. I'm so glad you brought that up.

It was right there before this. He was like, so we fix our eyes on what is not seen. And then he describes what that is. And we mention that when we talk about Thomas, who we'll get to later in chapter 20, that when he said, you're blessed because you're feeling of my scars, but really blessed are those who believe it, and they're not able to grab my body. Oh, exactly.

And he's talking about us. All right, so back to, we just got a couple of minutes left, but I want to get us where we can kind of carry the narrative to the next place, because I think we've kind of gotten to most of it. One of the thing I wanted to mention is this last point that John makes in verse 14, we said the time of day was noon when Passover lambs began being slaughtered. And it was very interesting because he's, you know, John didn't just throw things in without a purpose. Yeah.

This moment where he's about to hand him over to be crucified is the exact same moment that lambs across, you know, Israel, Jerusalem, are about to be slaughtered for a Passover. And yet it's like the symbolism of what's going on here is so rich. And the symbolism of our talk. I didn't know we were going to talk about politics today. But look, the fact he's choosing the Passover. What was that about? It was about liberating having freedom for a country who is in captivity. Of another country.

That was the backdrop. And that's why some of the people that we hang out with are saying, what this is is the new exodus. Don't miss it. It's bigger. then, oh, yes, he forgave us of our sins. He showed us the love. But he's also freeing humanity.

If you're living in a country that you don't have freedom, you should come to Jesus. Right. Because he literally showed you and died, picked the exact Jewish moment where freedom occurred. Yeah. And he's saying much more than that, obviously, that he's freeing us from the captivity of the spiritual forces of evil that caused all this in the first place.

And so, Jay, since the Exodus to this. moment in Jewish history, the way they represented that every year was the Passover lands were slaughtered, which now Jesus is that lamb, it's about to happen. And then a scapegoat, they call it, was released into the wilderness carrying the sins of the people. To be remembered again the next year, remember Hebrew writer said, well, guess what? Barabbas is the one who represents the scapegoat. He was released, although he was the guilty one, the same time Jesus, who was innocent, was sacrificed for all humanity. I mean, it's an amazing picture. Which is why we have that phrase that says freedom is not free when we use in reference to the military, you know, because some of them have died and sacrificed

themselves. Paid the ultimate sacrifice. Well, this is the ultimate freedom is not free. It cost Jesus' life and he had to endure this. And don't just say, well, yeah, he did it because three days later, he knew he was going to come back. I mean, just imagine being the creator of the universe and having to be ridiculed by these so-called kings and authority. could I have done that? No. I would have said, let me tell you something, Mr. Pilot. I am going to burn your house.

Go ahead and, because you know the nature of men. That's what we would do. And God's just better than us. Remember that song, the old song we used to sing, he could have called 10,000 angels. You know, the idea that he could have just brought down fire on them. Well, and they get that from a verse, like, you know, that he implies that.

And that would have been an option. Yeah. then I probably would have done it. Leave it up to us. It would have been the nuclear. But you know what I think is more fascinating is when you look at the history of what happened to these men. All the players of this, well, Jesus became the greatest known person and he came back from the dead. These other guys, they've been dead for 2,000 years.

So to tie off this section, we had four, maybe five trials, and none of them convicted Jesus. and yet he's going to die anyway, and he's going to do it for us. So next time we get back to this text, we'll pick it up in 16, and we're going to actually talk about the crucifixion, and there's a lot going on, and obviously what that means. So we'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast.

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