Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1212 | Jase Goes off on a Popular Winter Fashion Trend & Jesus Paid All Our Debts but One

Episode Date: November 19, 2025

Jase had no idea he’d be facing the “Abominable Snowman” today, but he wastes no time attacking its wintry fashion, which would never pass the smell test in Phil’s duck blind. The guys dive into the difference between the ancient law of Moses and Jesus’ fulfillment of that law on our behalf. Jase uncovers a verse about the one debt Jesus didn’t pay for us, and Zach and Al paint a beautiful picture of theological diversity united in Christ. In this episode: Acts 2, verses 44–47; Acts 20, verse 7; Exodus 20, verses 4–5; Exodus 32, verses 1–6; Romans 8, verse 2; Romans 13, verses 8–14; 1 Corinthians 1, verse 30; 1 Corinthians 2, verses 12–13; 2 Corinthians 1, verses 18–22; Galatians 3, verse 26; Ephesians 5, verse 19; Colossians 2, verses 13–14; Hebrews 3, verse 13; Hebrews 4, verses 7–9; Hebrews 9, verses 1–10 Chapters: 00:00-9:38 Zach becomes the Abominable Snowman 09:39-17:49 Why idolatry is so offensive to God 17:50-28:38 Does Old Testament law still apply to us? 28:39-39:55 Jesus came to fulfill the law, not abolish it 39:56-47:56 Our only debt now is to love each other 47:57-57:58 Nancy Reagan had it all wrong — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. So we're in three places, as we said on the last podcast. I'm at the Southern Lair. And Jay's, I noticed since the last podcast, apparently it must be cold in Zach's studio because he looks like he's dressed for severe winter. If you're watching.

I mean, Al, you have to address it because my eyes can't unsee what I see, which is, if you're listening to this, Zach has dressed up like the abominable snowman. Which is embarrassing because he's indoors. It's cold. It's super cold. I guess they don't have a heat. Well, I got a real fireplace right here. We were wondering, will it burn? Can you burn wood in it?

I lit a fire. The chimney works, but I don't know if it's ever been cleaned out. So we're like, we're kind of 50-50 should we, you know, should we chance it, see if to catch the whole building on fire. But I'm going to tell you, the temperature dropped. It's 25 degrees. It was 25 degrees last night. It's snowing today.

And what's crazy about that is we had outdoor baptisms yesterday. So it was warm yesterday. And it was warm. And by the, if it was warm, it wasn't like, I mean, I've got a rule at our church. I'll do baptisms in a certain season. And then once we get to about October, Brandon takes on most of the baptisms. So I'm like, he got everything. You're trying to question your manhood here.

I don't like to be cold. The problem I have with what you're wearing as a protector, as a man, your mobility. is limited. This is like if something happens right now. No, I did. What I have on here is the warmest jacket you could ever get. It's not water print. That's going to be the issue with it.

But if it's not raining, I mean, this thing is warm. But you can't do anything. It's the same. It's the same. Everything. It looks like you're in a bubble wrap. I got incredible range of motion. I've got everything that you would.

It's lightweight. Jay, do you believe that? Well, here's the deal. In the scholarly world, they've recently found out because I've had a couple of arguments with people about biblical things here in the last week. Shocker. They used a phrase that I'd never heard, and they said, we have a theological tension here. And I said, ooh.

What is that? Well, there's, sounds exciting. We're reading the same verses and coming to different. conclusion. But so from a theological tension viewpoint, Zach, what you're wearing, the problem I have with that is, yes, you're saved from the cold, but you can't do anything. You have no mobility. You can't be saved to something because no matter what happens, your best option is to stop, drop, and roll. That's the only way you could actually do anything to defend yourself or protect anyone.

Okay. Well, I do have range of motion. I have mobility. I don't want to mess up the analogy, though, because I agree with it. I agree with what you're saying, except it doesn't really apply to what I'm wearing. Oh, no, yes, it does. I've been in a duck blind many times, and I've seen what my dad used to call, what did he call them, where their pants would be too short?

High waters. High waters, and they put these big jackets on. So when he would say. cut them, we would raise up, bu, boom, and then the guy in a jacket like you, he's struggling to even lift himself in a standing position,

much less, put a gun to his shoulder, discharge it, and actually hit what he's aiming at. Impossible. Impossible. That's not what I'm trying to tell you that. This is not,

whatever kind of jacket you think you saw or whatever you think you're seeing now is not the same jacket. This is a, I have incredible, but I'm telling you, I have incredible mobility in this jacket. It's one of the reason why I love it.

Well, let me give you a famous philosopher once said, Yeah. I don't believe you. I mean, all I can do is tell you, man. Zach, you gained 40 pounds by putting on a jacket. You look like you weigh 240 pounds right now. No, it's fluffy, but it's not heavy. That's not, you're conflating fluffiness with heaviness.

And it's not, this jacket has a, it's not dense. I thought Zach needed to come on to the PhD train again. Oh, yeah. You're back up. Your weight just went out the roof. I'm telling you. I wore it last night.

Speaking of theological diversity, we had baptisms yesterday. We baptized a guy that grew up Jewish, came to Christ, was just baptized into the cold waters, rushing waters. It was, we call it living water because it moves. I always tell them when you go down in this water, your sins are washed away. They end up in the Gulf of America. I got trouble for saying the Gulf of Mexico the last time I told our baptism stories.

Either way, it's full of sin. And then we had a young lady who has been in the New Age movement, and it was really cool because when Brandon baptized her and he took her confession, he asked who was going to be the Lord of her life. and she said Jesus and he said in all those other gods all those other idols you worship you're denouncing them today she said yes and it was just funny that like you know the think about that we're in a city where you you like there are literally people worshipping idols like like really but not like I mean overtly doing this and so it was such a beautiful baptismal ceremony and then we wound up at my house that night around the campfire last night, and you want to talk about theological diversity. I had myself,

then a Presbyterian Masters of Divinity from Presbyterian Seminary on one side, and on the other side I had an Eastern Orthodox guy, and then on the other side I had a Pentecostal. So we had quite the robust conversation last night, Jace. It was definitely some theological. diversity around the campfire. Zach, that's a beautiful picture.

I love that picture of unity, you know, because you had sitting around that campfire with all these different folks. And that's something our country could use a real dose of because I don't know about you guys, but it feels like we're more divided than ever. And the truth seems to be that kind of dividing line. And that's why we need folks like our good partners at Family Research Council, which is Tony Perkins, who's a Louisiana guy, pastor, loves the Lord, loves our nation. And they're right there in D.C. really trying to show that

biblical truth still matters. They're on Capitol Hill. They're defending faith. They protect families. And they remind the leaders of our country what's most important. So help FRC keep defending what matters most. Visit FRC.org slash unashamed to learn more about what they're doing. Is that Montreat, is that a Presbyterian college? Yeah, Montreat is Presbyterian. So it's interesting the town, which is Billy Graham, you know, his house where he lived is like up on that, up on the mountain up there. Yeah, above there. Yeah.

In fact, when we first moved here, Will, his grandson drove by the house and saw Al standing out there. What are y'all doing? And so you don't want to go see my granddad's house? He gave us a tour, yeah. Yeah, that was pretty fun. That was awesome, actually. to see where Billy Graham lived, and he would come down to this little train down here,

train station, when he would go to his crusades. So this area is interesting because there's a rich Christian heritage, but there's also like a, it's called a vortex city, which means a vortex city is, they say, the space between, don't you love this, Jace, the veil between heaven and earth is very thin in places like Sedona, Arizona, and Asheville, North Carolina. So this is called a vortex city.

such attracted a lot of the New Age energy healers and mystics, which is funny because we're like, do you realize that you, like, if you understand the teaching of the gospel, that if you want to find the place where heaven and earth meet, well, you might want to look in the bodies

of spirit-filled believers. Because we are the place where heaven and earth meet. It's been pretty cool. And I think that's why we've seen such a harvest in the kingdom in an area like this, because the new age folks, they're already looking for where does heaven and earth connect? They're searching for it. And so when they run across the gospel of the kingdom, they're like, oh, my goodness, wait a second.

You mean heaven and earth met a man named Jesus, and now we can be living stones built upon him? Tell me more. So that's the harvest that we're seeing here, and it's been awesome. Well, I'm interested in when you said the Jewish guy, came to Christ. What was the theological tension in that study or were there any? Well, I don't think there was a big theological tension there because I think he was kind of a nominal, you know, he grew up in Judaism, but he didn't really, it was more of a cultural thing for him. It wasn't like an actual. So then he moved into that. He also, I think, moved into maybe the new age.

I didn't actually study with him. I asked that because one of the, the debates I got into was with a guy who believes in Jesus, but it's like wants to keep the old law post coming to Jesus, which is an ongoing, you know, debate. And I thought that was going to be easily corrected, but I have been sincerely mistaken. But, and it's strange because it's like he points out points that I think are not major points. but he's made them major, which is like in the book of Acts, he's like, well, all of them were meeting together on the Sabbath. They weren't meeting on Sundays like we typically do.

And I really never thought about it because there's really only one obscure verse, which is Acts 20 and 7. I just remember it because it's the only time that it gives the first day of the week they came together, and that's Acts. But also, Jay, is Acts 2. 44 through 47 area. They met every day. I mean, they were meeting daily.

Well, that was my point. I went, you know what I did? I went to Hebrews 3 and 4, the chapters, which it's too much to read, just because I'm making a point here. But it's drawing from this a Sabbath rest for the people of God in Jesus. And he characterizes the chapter 4 in that as a as long as it's called today. I mean, every day in Christ is a liberating day because you're in Christ.

You're free. You have the Holy Spirit. So, you know, just because I would say it's a leadership thing, we're going to meet. And I've always thought that we meet on Sundays because Jesus was raised on Sunday. The Holy Spirit was poured out on a Sunday, which I went through this. But he's like, well, that was the day of the Pentecost, you know, which is. Jewish festival. And so he's trying to keep those, even though this guy's not Jewish as far as heritage. And it was, it's an interesting study. I just think we're all, we're all Jewish

and heritage in the sense that, you know, this, that was the birthplace of the Messiah. So I just, I don't know, you know, we're grafted. We're grafted in, you know, but, but you got to remember when when God created man, well, you know, the Israel nation didn't come along. until, what, 12 chapters, 15, if you want to get into the covenant with Abraham. Yeah. And so I'm like, you have basic humans that are in the garden, and this idea of idolatry is quickly comes to the forefront. When you brought that up about idolatry, because you remember the conversation in the garden,

it's like the evil one said, oh, well, God knows that if you need to, this fruit, you know, you'll be gods like him. Well, that was appealing. And so I think when you look at the big picture, which is what we're doing going through the book of John, you know, God didn't create us to necessarily, you know, what we say, bear the image. We are the image of God. And so by worshiping God and him alone, everything would have gone a lot better. But then all of a sudden, when you're like, well, no, I want to be my own God or I want to worship some other God, then what you were created to be is now not functioning. And so that's where sin comes from.

It's like, what came first, the idol or the sin? But it's that appeal to either be your own God or worship some other God besides the creator of the universe. And then ultimately sin and death came. And you see that even in the story of the nation of Israel, You know, in Exodus, where was it where he said, let me look at it up real quick, chapter 20, Exodus 20. Because I'm glad you brought that up about the idols, because what was the song that everybody's going to worship something, somebody? Yeah, Bob Dylan, you got to serve somebody.

And he just threw out a biblical philosophy there. We're created to worship our God, and you're going to worship something. But Exodus 20, yeah, the Ten Commandments one says verse 4, you shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on earth. There it is again, heaven and earth, beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation,

those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. But then in Exodus 32, will you remember what happens? And that's where you bring in this golden calf. Oh, yeah. Where was that at? Exodus 32. You can read that whole chapter and you see the same concept instead of bowing down to worship. of God.

I mean, they're literally worshipping a calf made of gold. That they made. That they made. Out of the plunder that they, out of the blessing that God had given them from the gold that they plundered

from the Egyptians, they take the blessing of God and then the spoils that God gave them and said, go take this, and they take that, and then they crafted into an image to worship. And probably, probably an image that they saw back

when they were in Egypt, which is, you know, which is an even double slap in God's face, which is terrible. Well, the interesting thing about the, I've thought about this, too. I don't know the whole, like, depths of your conversation with your friend, but it's, I understand in some capacity how people can get into that argument, because if you're, sometimes you're reacting to something that you've heard. And so I grew up, and you did too, hearing, anytime you talk about the old Testament. Anytime you talk about the law, anytime you talk about Judaism, it was always like,

oh, that was Old Testament God. And the way it would be almost said, it wasn't quite like this, but it was like, that's mean God. And the nice God is Jesus. That's New Testament. And so you would have phrases like, well, we grew up in a church that didn't have instrumental music. And so they would say, well, Ephesians chapter, is it four or five, where it says, singing and make melody in your heart. And that was their scripture. It doesn't say these instruments. It says sing and make melody in your heart.

And so if someone were to bring up David, then you know what they would say? Old Testament, doesn't apply. Oh, that's silly. Even though it says sing Psalms, which is the singing by using a stringed instrument, that's what the word means. But they really viewed it as that,

oh, that was the old. Testament and when Jesus came and he nailed it to the cross. He nailed the written code to the cross, which is a scripture. It is in the Bible. But when you read that, if you think that the Old Testament doesn't apply, then you're misunderstanding the whole covenant of grace and what God was actually building and what he's doing. It's not that that's, that stuff was bad. The law was not bad. Paul says that. The law was good. And the law, is good. And the way I would view the law is that the law in the Old Testament, it tells you the way to be right with God. Now, the problem with the law is not that it's bad. It just doesn't

provide the means for you to do it. It gives you the way to do it. It doesn't give you the means. The means to be good is only going to come through Jesus and its finished work and by the power of the Holy Spirit that enduels us. And so if I was meeting with someone who is Jewish and having a Bible study with them, that would pretty much be my tactic. I would say, but what are your, I get, I get you got the law. What problem is they don't have the law anymore because they have, that would be the big problem I would say with trying to follow Judaism today is one, you got a big, big issue

that you have to look at. And that is the fact that you don't have any priest. like where the priest? And there was a lot I need a priest. Well, because you got to have a sacrifice. Why do I need sacrifices? Because of what I'm sinful. So where's the sacrifice?

Where's the priest? Where's the temple? And when's the last time you saw it? And the answer is the last time you saw any of that was around this time period to the ocean right here. And the problem, Jay, is the biggest problem with the mindset that you're kind of working with is the book of Hebrews. I mean, what are you going to do with that?

Well, that's kind of where I said, I was like, you need to read the book of Hebrews. Because I tried the standard versions of, you know, like I thought Galatius 326, you know, now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Yeah. And I read the quote that Zach made in Colossians 2, which was really the only place that says he nailed the law to the cross and canceled the written code. But there's a couple of obscure translations that type that into English as in our legal indebtedness, which is the same concept. Of course, that's what he went with. He's like, oh, no, he's not talking about the law.

He's talking about our legal indebtedness, you know. And so even like Romans 8, where it says, the law of the spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. Well, guess what he said? well, it's still a law. Yeah. So then, you know, I found myself thinking, okay, well, how do you convince somebody of this? And I'm like, well, you go to the sermon on the Mount. And here's Jesus taking their law and kind of turning it on its head saying, okay, it's in the law that you shouldn't murder.

But I'm telling you, if you get angry at your brother, you're just as guilty. and you're like, well, what's his point there? Well, he makes the point over and over that it's from the heart where these things are coming. The law provided wisdom into what God wanted them to do. But in every case, if you go back and read Israel's history, like Exodus 32, they get the laws, and what do they do with it? Well, they start bowing down and worship in a different God.

It's not working. They're not keeping the law. And that pattern continues through the whole nation of Israel from when they get judges and prophets and priests like Zach said. But they still keep doing the same thing. The law was exposing their weakness in keeping that law. Going back to Exodus, say, what was the point of the law? Think about what was the point of the law? You have to get this.

If you don't get this, you miss the whole thing. The point of the law was they couldn't get up the mountain. Why? Because they weren't good. And so here's the instructions. This is what you got to do. You got to do this to get up the mountain. You got to do this to be with God. And there was that divide. And that's why this idea of atonement, which is we're right in it right now. We are in the atonement of Christ right now because we're in his death in John 19. But you read Hebrews, and he says that in Hebrews 9, now even the first covenant had regulations for worship in an earthly place for Holy Now, why does he say it earthly?

Who cares? Because that's the whole thing. What's the vortex city? Where's the place for holiness? Where's the place we're having an earth meet? There was a place with the first covenant where heaven and earth met. For a tent was prepared the first section in which were the lamp stands. This is going back to Exodus right here.

This is tabernacle language. There were lampstands. There was the table. There was the bread. There was the bread of the presents. This is what there, it was, it was called the holy place. So when you walk into the tabernacle, you got the holy place where you got the lamp stand on the left, you got the bread of presence on the right.

And behind the second curtain, it's all in Hebrews, was a second section. What was it called? Well, that was called the most holy place, having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, which was a golden urn holding the the manna, which you referenced in the last podcast, and Aaron's staff that butted, and the tables of the covenant. So the 10 commandments, the law. Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail, because there's a lot of detail. Go back to read it in Exodus. There's several chapters on this. These preparations,

having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section. So the priest would go into the first section, performing their ritual duties. But into the second, only the high priest goes. And he but once a year and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for unintentional sins of the people. By this, the Holy Spirit indicates the way into the holy places is not, yet open as long as the first section is still standing, which is symbolic for the present age. According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience

of the worshipper, but deal only with food and drink and various washing regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. So when you read this, you think, I hope that that's, I hope that whatever that system was, I hope that that shadow is no longer, which was the whole prophecy of Jesus. That was his whole prophecy. That thing's coming down. And now, guess what? Now the vortex city, the holy of holies, that's now going to be in people.

So why do I need to go back to these regulations? Well, because I think they don't understand that the fruit of the spirit is love. God is love. And love is perfection. When you see that word perfection, you know, we did a rabbit hole on that. Even the rich young ruler, because it came up, and he's like, no, he told him, you know, it's all about the commandments. And I'm like, no, he looked at him and loved him and said, if you want to be perfect,

go sell everything you have. Because love experienced is the new law, if you want to call it. You know, just think when he said, a new command I give you, what? Love each other as I have loved you. This is love for God. Not that you love him, but that he's. he loved you enough to send his son to die for you. And I think that's what's being missed.

So, and I think it's called the law of love just because of cleverly saying it fulfills. It's kind of what Jesus did on the sermon on the Mount. It's, it's form in a higher form of wisdom that the first written law showed to Zach's point, that we're flawed, we're weak. we're not going to keep it we bow down to other gods but to be in jesus and have his spirit in you is teaching you the greater wisdom which is was the purpose of the law was to love god and love your neighbor as yourself so when you're loving you're fulfilling the written law at a higher form of wisdom in christ i mean that's what to me what it comes down to so so so That's why when people say, well, how many laws, I mean, how many times you've been asked this?

How many laws are we under from the Old Testament? What is your answer to that? How many laws are we under from the Old Testament? You've never been asked that? How many of those laws still apply to us today? I've been asked that a thousand times. I'm not under law. Well, that's what I say.

I say none, and they're like, what? but you can make a point of saying, well, you're technically under all of them, because in Jesus, it's either all or none. I was going to say all. You're under all of them, but here's the deal, that they're all fulfilled in Christ. Well, exactly. And I think that trying to explain that, I have found that very difficult in this study. Well, because it's the law. When you said the law, Paul says the law is put into effects that sin might increase or trespasses might increase, that we may become aware of our sin.

And the way that works is that it's God, he gave us the instructions. And also you got to separate. Some of these are ceremonial laws. There's some other stuff at play here that's not, it's not cookie cutter because some of these laws were very specific to Israel and what they were doing in the, in the Exodus. So that is a key point. Like some of these were definitely ceremonial laws.

But you adhere to these laws. But the problem is when you look intently into it, you realize that I can't actually, I'm not going to keep this. And the reason why you're not going to keep it is, it's real simple, is because you don't want to. I mean, that's the problem is that we have a want problem. The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want, but I do want. I want what's not mine. And so I have this want problem because I'm a professional wanter.

the reason why I'm a wantress, because what you said earlier, Jase, I'm a worshipper. Because the want is just another word for worship. The desire is to worship, to want, to desire, longings, affections. These are all synonyms. And so my problem is that I want the wrong thing. So then when you think, well, what is the solution going to be? I know the way, if I just do that right there, but the problem is I don't want to. Well, the solution, I don't have the means because I can't want that.

I need new affections. I need new desires. So that really is a key part, I think, of what we left out about the crucifixion of Christ. We haven't left it out on this podcast, but what we've left out in the church, a key reason that Christ is crucified and buried and resurrected was so that he could ascend. So why does he need to ascend? Well, he said, it's better for you that I go, because if I don't go, he's not going to come. And so the coming of the Holy Spirit is a part of the gospel.

The coming of the Holy Spirit is part of the reason why Jesus was died, buried and raised in the dead, and ascended so that the Spirit would come. And when the Spirit comes, he's going to live in humans now. He's going to live in your body. You're going to become the Holy of Holies. And when that happens, now you're unified with Christ by his spirit. And what you want actually changes. Now you actually become a new tent, a new dwelling place, not the one built by human hands, but the one built by God in heaven. And so that's why when you look back at that old way,

if you look at it as a final destination, you're missing what the Hebrew writer says. He calls it a copy. He says it was necessary, though, for the copies. This is in Hebrews 923. It was necessary then for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rights, with these laws, with these rituals.

The copies, not the real thing, but the heavenly things themselves, Oh, well, that was purified with a better sacrifice than these. It's the one we're reading about in John chapter 19. For Christ has entered not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf, nor was it to offer himself repeatedly as the high priest

enters the holy place every year with the blood not of his own, for then he would not have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age is to put away sin by the sacrifice himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ having been offered once to bear the sins of many will appear a second time not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. That's the hope. Man, I hope I don't have to go back into all those copies.

Why would I go to the copies when I got the real thing in Jesus? Why would we worship copies? That's so good. And Zach, everything that your whole rant that you just did, if you go back and read Romans six, seven, and eight, that's exactly. Exactly Paul's point, the point you just made. Every point you just made, he makes in Romans 6, 7, and 8. I didn't make the point.

Hebrew writer made the point. I literally, I was just thinking I'm just reading this text, and it just comes off the page. Just the word for word. You read it in a tight, fit jacket that's cutting out of the circulation, and I thought you were fixed to blow like a tea cattle. You were so excited, and you had on the passion, and that coat was restricting you, and I thought, Boy, if his hat blows off right now. I was expecting him just to strip out of that code at any second, Jay.

I saw a news article, Alex Jones and Russell Brand, they stripped off on their show. He made me think about it. They put it at their shirts off and they're flexing. I wasn't going to do that. Well, you didn't have theological tension. You just had tension from the lower body that was about to explode. So look, I want to read this,

it goes in with what I was getting at. That verse that you quoted in Colossians too, because he says in verse 13, when you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins. We got that part down. But then he says,

having canceled the written code with its regulation that was against us and stood opposed to us, He took it away and knelling it to the cross. So whether you want to call it the written code or legal indebtedness, because this hit me, when you read Romans 13, I hadn't noticed this before. When Zach was talking and he brought that up, it hit me. I should have read this in this last debate I had.

Romans 13.8, listen to what this says. I mean, if there was ever a smoking gun in this debate, here it is. based on the backdrop of Zach quoting Hebrews on what Jesus pulled off, not as, you know, give us more copies, but he went into heaven itself. Yeah. Romans 138, let no debt, well, there's that same terminology, remain outstanding except the continuing debt to love one another. for he who loves his fellow man now look at this phrase has fulfilled the law so i guess we need to find

out what that means the word fulfill because you know remember when jesus said i didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it and that's why i framed it around the wisdom you know where it says we christ is our wisdom and our righteousness that's in first cynthia's one But anyway, it says he fulfilled the law. The commandments do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, and whatever other commandment there may be, which there were 613 of them in Exodus. And that wasn't even all of them. That's just what we have.

Yeah, there were more. Yeah, there were more. But it says, whatever other commandment there may be are some. up in this one rule. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law. Now, it's either fulfilled or it's not in Jesus.

So once you surrender Jesus and you have His Spirit, you have a greater sense of wisdom in moral behavior, your purpose. I mean, all sorts of things. things. But it's right there with you. So it's no longer under compulsion because you've got to go check the law and make sure you're keeping them all. It's you have his spirit in you that speaks to your conscience. That's why you have all these verses in Hebrews that says he wrote the law on your conscience to know. So that's where this is coming from. You love, you experience it, like Jesus. And ultimately become like Jesus on the earth. Which goes back to your point you made

earlier in the podcast about Jesus's sermon on the Mount and going to behind the law or beyond the law into the heart of a human being. The problem with the law is at any point, it is just what it is, but it's not big enough. It's like saying we're Americans because we have laws. I mean, we're Americans for a different reason. And we're Americans because we love freedom and we love something larger than just our laws. I mean, that's not a big enough reason to be something.

And so I think when you try to put yourself back under that setting, like Zach said, you have missed the point of why Jesus came. I mean, yeah, and to your point, I think you mentioned Romans 8 earlier. Yeah, I think it's a semical argument if you're saying like something like, well, Romans says that Romans 8, there's a law of liberty, you know, or law of the spirit. it that's a law yeah but it's in contrast with the law of of the mosaic law in the sense of he's contrasting those two things here there's two versions of a debt or uh or what was the what you just read was it uh yeah well i just said the argument when i brought up coliseans 2

is like well that's not the law that's legal indebtedness and i'm like okay well let's i wish i would have thought of that verse in romans 13 because then he's like let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another. Again, contrasting the word debt, and Paul does the same exact technique in Romans chapter 6 when he talks about slavery. Going back to Bob Dylan, he said, you're going to be a slave, whether you like it or not. The question is, do you want to be a slave to righteousness, or do you want to be a slave to sin? And that's that, that Willard quote is so helpful for me in understanding this when he says

that in Christ you can do whatever you want. In fact, in Christ you can murder all you want, which will be none at all. That's the thing, though. That's the reason why those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, they'll be filled. Well, why? Because the thing that you want to do, you can actually do. And that only can come through the law of liberty. And so to contrast, when you see these contrasts, like you have to look at what we're actually contrasting and you get hung up on the word and you're missing the whole metaphor. But you said that. so fast that people are going to be confused by that they're going to be like what but it's think think about the first sin by doing that you're no longer doing what you should have been doing

there there's the problem yeah it's like he created you for a purpose and it's not like something you had to conjure up it was just you are the image of god reflect him and you're like no i'm not going to do that, which leads to sin. Therefore, as you're doing the sin, leads to you not reflecting him. You're now reflecting that you're your own God or some golden cap. Well, plus, think about what Paul said in Roman 7, Zach, whenever he said, once I was alive, apart from law, and then the commandments sprang to life. So he even shows the picture that we're born, not under law. We're born, reflected. the innocence of our Lord and Savior, and at some point, we're convicted by law. So even today,

you see the clear line of the purpose of the law. And it was never for us to stay there. It was never for us to reflect there. It was never for us to live there. We had something greater in mind. And we even experienced that as human beings to this day. And a lot of people don't believe that, but that's true. Again, if you look at the whole point of this podcast now, I don't think we started this way, but it certainly has evolved into this. Really, the podcast has evolved in the last several years. And I think now the point that we're trying to make every episode is that Christus saves you to live in him.

Yeah. Yeah, he saved you from your sin. But if that's, if you're just stopping at justification, like all these isms and all the stuff that like the theologies that Jason, you know, alludes to that we would push against, the issue with all of it is you're, you're. you're trying to take the whole idea of Christianity and you're reducing it to, am I saved or not? Meaning, am I justified or not?

Instead of what is God, what is the life that God is calling you into and what he's calling us into his life in him, which is actual freedom? And that's why my heart is saying in all of this is probably just believing that that's true. Do I really believe that God can change the desires of my heart? Can he really take someone who is just, in the most depraved lifestyle that you could ever possibly imagine. And can the Lord heal that person and can he reshape their desire? Well, going back to Romans 13, listen to this.

He says that this is right after what Jay's just read. Besides this, you know the time that the hour has come for you to wake up from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believe. If salvation is only about your justification, now how do you make sense of that? He says it's near. So the idea here is that salvation is something that we're growing into because it's beyond just our justification. The night is far gone.

The day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness. not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy, but put on the Lord Jesus and make no provision for the flesh to gratify its desires. I mean, you read that picture and you start thinking about, well, that's the stuff they were doing when they made that golden cab. They were out there having orgies.

That's the stuff they were doing when they were offering up the babies to bail. They were around there having orgies. You think, man, because that's where the end of all that goes, just unbridled sexual exploration and expression. and you think, man, once you kind of go there, can you ever really pull it back? Well, yeah, you can. Because he's sitting here telling us, don't go into that again. Get out of that.

Don't do that. That can actually be redeemed. The things that enslave you, the desires that enslave you, don't have to enslave you. You can actually be a slave to righteousness instead. You can. And that's a hope for everybody. It's actually possible. Not possible.

It's guaranteed if you walk with Jesus. Guaranteed. Well, since we've already hijacked this podcast, I just thought. Not another clever thing in this light. So when you get to St. Corinthians 1, I mean, this is just fascinating to me. Paul's writing this letter, and he's like, he starts talking about a simple thing that he had planned on visiting them. And St. Corinthians 1, verse 13. No, I think it's verse 15.

Yeah, verse 15. I had planned on doing this. And you can tell they got upset about because it didn't come through. So he gets down to verse 17 and he's like, do I make my plans in a worldly manner? So that in the same church I say yes, yes, and no, no. Well, then he launches into a thought about what we're talking about because he says in verse 18, but as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not yes and no. for the son of God Jesus Christ who was preached among you by Silas and Timothy was not yes

no but in him it's always been yes and you're like where's he going with this and you see a contrast between yes and no and from a worldly viewpoint and from a heavenly viewpoint because verse 20 says for no matter how many promises God has made there yes in Christ which I make the argument is in contrast to trying to keep a law where, because then you have the situation where you have to say no. It's always no. Remember Nancy Reagan on the drug problem? Yeah, just say no. You know why it didn't work? There was nothing to say yes to. Because most people who are on drugs, they're going to like, you need to quit doing drugs and they're going to say, why. Yeah. Well, whatever you're fixing to say is going to be the key life transforming thing. And so then he says, and so in him, it's yes, in Christ. So through him, the amen

has spoken. And then you know what he starts talking about? The spirit. Verse 21. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He has anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his spirit in our hearts as a deposit and a guarantee on what is to come. And so that's why all the framework in the New Testament letters are talking about putting off the old cell and putting on the new cell? Yeah. Because it's the same thing. What you can't do has been crucified, the law.

He nailed it to the cross. And it's just like 1st Peter 2 when he says he bore our sins on a tree. So what's that next phrase? So that we might die to sins. I mean, what kind of statement is that? It's kind of like Roman 6. It's like, why shouldn't you go out there and sin since we're under this wonderful grace? And of all things, he gives an illustration about being baptized saying, we died to sin.

How can we live in it any longer? And I thought of another example. In 1 Corinthians 1, the verse I've been quoting throughout this whole process, in verse 30, it says, it is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus. who has become for us wisdom from God. That is our righteousness. He's become that. Holiness and redemption.

Well, where does he go from there? Chapter 2. It's all about the Holy Spirit. I mean, I'll pick it up in verse 12. It says of chapter 2, we have not received the spirit of the world. The same thing you said in St. Corinthians, too. Same exact phrase.

We're not looking at this as in a world. way about yes and no it's all about yes in christ then he says taught us by human wisdom so so what's he saying in verse not skip down 13 verse 12 we have not received the spirit of the world but the spirit who is from god that we may understand what god has freely given us this is what we speak not in words taught us by human wisdom or earthly wisdom or worldly wisdom but in words taught but in words taught by the spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. I mean, it's just so fascinating that we as American churches have missed what we can do. It's like I was answering Zach's deal about what we're free to do all sorts of things

and to say yes to all kinds of things in Jesus. That is the emphasis. It's just hard to wrap your head around. Well, because when you think about in football, They always tell you this, it's true, that the best defense is a good offense, because if you're on the offense, then guess what? Then their offense is not on the field. So the best way to keep their team from scoring a touchdown is if you're just on the field

and you're marching forward. And I think that's the principle here of what it's like to be in the spirit. And the reason why in Christ all the promises are yes and amen is because we're not saying no, to what we can't do. No, we're saying yes to live in him. And as you do that through a lifetime, then

your desires are shaped. And again, going back to what I said earlier, how can Christ say, blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled? You'll be filled

because you can actually taste what he has offered you as opposed to you go chase sin, it's slavery because the Bible says, and Peter, they're slaves to depravity because you never get what the promise is, but you actually do in righteousness. And that's why it says it's a law of liberty. That's why we say it. That's why it's called liberty and freedom, because you actually are truly free. Now, granted, it is a progressive growth, but not because God hasn't offered it, because it takes us a while to actually believe these things, and we believe them in greater measure, the more mature we get in our walk with

Christ. Well, you went to football metaphor, but I'll go with the famous cheesy quote that I believe in, where a guy, a pastor said, prisons and church buildings are filled with captives of people who can't keep the law. I thought it was profound, you know. It's like his point was deep down, we all. want a law. Well, I'll close this with the Phil quote.

Just because you're under lock and key does not mean that you can't be set free. So there you go. That's a quote from dear old dad. So Unashamed Nation, what you just witnessed was a entire podcast with nothing we had planned to do today. That was completely because of Zach's coat. And that led us down this road. We'll give credit to the Holy Spirit. We will, because it was some pretty good stuff, I have to admit.

Well, and Jesus is fixing to accomplish what we just said. He is going to nail that to the cross, whether you believe it or not. Way to bring it back. Come into the freedom in Christ. It's awesome. All right. So we'll try to do better next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast.

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