Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1213 | Jase Revisits His Embarrassing First Episodes & Ties Eden’s Trees to Jesus’ Cross

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

The guys reflect on how much their understanding of the kingdom has grown since the early days of the podcast and use John 19 to contrast the deadly misuse of law with the life-giving work of the Holy Spirit. Jase points out that the Jewish leaders tried to kill Jesus “by the book,” while never stopping to ask the only question that mattered: what if he really is the Son of God? The guys explore the danger of legalism, the difference between living like a slave under law versus a son filled with the Spirit. In this episode: John 3, verses 1–8; John 4, verses 13–14; John 19, verses 7–30; Acts 2, verses 1–4; Romans 8, verses 12–14; Galatians 4, verses 4–7; Ephesians 5, verses 15–20; Hebrews 12, verse 24; James 3, verse 13; Genesis 3, verses 4–24; Genesis 4, verses 1–8; Genesis 6, verse 5; Leviticus 24, verse 16; Proverbs 1, verses 2–7; Proverbs 1, verses 22–33; Proverbs 3, verse 18; Proverbs 23, verses 29–35 Chapters: 00:00-06:36 Jase crawls out of his Bible cave 06:37-17:18 The “blasphemy” of Jesus 17:19-26:11 Christianity isn’t about rules 26:12-37:36 Legalism kills but the Spirit gives life 37:37-49:25 Leaves don’t make good clothes 49:26-56:35 How to live as sons & heirs, not slaves — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to the unashamed podcast. We were talking before we started rolling out live that, you know, there's a lot of you out there that have communicated with us that this podcast is really impacting your overall spiritual growth. And I think every once in a while it's behooves us to just say how much we give praise to. to God for that, but also just appreciate, you know, the input that we get back from you guys because obviously this is a deep dive Bible study podcast. We do some nonsensical things and we do a lot of rabbit holes, but they're rabbit holes that have a point of a greater spiritual understanding.

So I just want to start off today by saying thank you, Unashamed Nation for your willingness to go with us on the journey. A lot of you have said to me personally, you know, we miss Phil. I just want you to know we all miss Phil. his impact of being here in person. But that's part of the legacy that keeps us going forward is that, you know, we have to continue that. So, yeah, we talked about a lot, Jayes, because the idea is that, man,

everything you get into the Bible leads you to something else that's even more amazing than what you already knew. Yeah, that's why it's difficult to, when somebody comes up, like you were telling a story before he started, you know, a woman comes up and says, hey, in episode 53, And then ask you a question, we're over 1,200. You're not going to remember episode 53, and there's a good chance that whatever you said, you might have expanded on it in the last five years.

I may have changed my opinion about that. Yeah, people quote like Martin Luther, for example, and I'm like, which Martin Luther are you quoting there? Because people evolve in their opinions and their takes evolve over time. And I think about this podcast. I mean, let me ask you all this. of the early days, I mean, how much, I think we've evolved quite a bit in our understanding of the kingdom, for sure. I mean, at least in particular the way we articulate it now.

I think if you went back and you listened to our first run at the book of John and then compared it to what we've been doing for the last few months, it would probably be a welcome evolution to a better understanding, especially on the kingdom. Well, that's a nice way of saying it would be embarrassing of what we thought. the first time on how much growth. But we were sincere. The thing about it is you have to give grace because we were sincere in our study. We just, we learned a lot more.

Well, even, Jay said the last podcast, not on the podcast, but after we recorded, we were, you know, we keep talking. And he said, I won't tell you what all we say. But he did say, he said, man, I want to go back and redo John 3 again. He said, I, and that was just a few months ago. And you've already like, man, I missed that. Yeah. Yeah, that was a smoking gun there that I missed about the heaven and earth connection, which keeps coming up.

You know, flesh gives birth to flesh, but the spirit gives birth to spirit. And I saw the same point here where we're at in John 19, so I'm wanting to back up and make a point about this. You know, after this profound statement, which we covered over two or three podcasts, when Jesus comes out, you know he has the purple robe on they have a crown of thorns and pilot says here's the man which is such a profound statement because here is here is the man the man oh sigh loves that that phrase but i was going to say before the verse i wanted to to get to just part of a review of where we're at in verse seven because the jews are justifying him being put to death based on the law.

And they could not be any more wrong in their assessment. But it's so crazy to me that they're using the law because in verse 7 they said, we have a law. And according to that law, he must die because he claimed to be the son of God. And it just kind of hit me when I was just reading like where we're at and going back and reading John 19. I thought, how many times do we practically try to enforce the law or have that mindset, which we're no longer under the law, we're under the spirit?

We have the thoughts of God, the wisdom of God in our heart that's kind of discerning on a daily basis what we should do to please God. But how many times do you see people doing that? And here, he is the son of God. technically he wrote the law and they're like oh he must die because we have the law written right here he's claiming to be the son of god the son of god are you not claiming to be the son of god you kind of see that argument coming forth and boy you don't want to be on on the wrong side of that application well and you see jace the problem is they missed the one possibility of truth what if he

is the son of god yes that's kind of the big smoking gun i mean what what What if we're doing this and he is the son of God? You tell about missed the boat. But how many arguments? My point is how many arguments? Because we're doing so many Bible studies and to just continue the theme about our podcast. I think one reason we do so many nonsensical stories and all as part of the podcast. We basically go to a cave where we're studying the Bible, sometimes for hours,

and having other Bible studies. And you're kind of in this weird, lonely place where you're just seeing all. all these, you're drinking from a fire hose because you're discovering all these great points that you never have discovered before and then you're interacting. But it's all, in my case, I'm not having an actual conversation. I'm emailing a Bible study. But then when we come together, well, to us, this is us actually being with other people talking about the Bible, so we're catching up.

I feel like I've walked out of a cave and, oh, there's actual human beings walking around. And so we're catching up in a way, even while we're filming the podcast and then getting into how this kind of works practically with other people. So that's a lot of this. Well, you mentioned before we started days that a lot of folks that you're studying with and talking to, the problem is law is easier for most people to grow. because it seems very simple. It's like, well, just give me the statement, give me what I, you know, show me the boundary, give me the can and can't do.

And whereas the spirit seems very frightening because it's like, well, wait a minute. So my conscience is going to play into this. My idea of putting something to death is going to do that. It's sort of like that with pornography, we can just say pornography is wrong, right? And our friends, Zach, at Covenant Eyes, I mean, they're great to say we want to bring in accountability. But at some point, there has to be a decision you make on a consistent basis that somehow I've put to death the old person that wants to go and look lustfully at material that's not even real.

I mean, it's just, it's fake in the sense that it isn't real for you. And so at some point, it's beyond just saying I have a commandment and more of, I've put that to death. I mean, is that. Yeah, I think that's the hard part. That's the John 19 passage we're getting into is the death of Jesus, which is the prototype for how we're going to experience freedom too. That's why that, that, I don't think we've ever done something like we did with Covenant Eyes, which we did an entire podcast on just

like pornography, sexual sin, a lot because that is, is just destroying young men. I mean, look, even if you're already a believer, you know, maybe you embrace biblical masculinity and all that kind of stuff. I mean, we are talking about putting the death, the mysties of body. So, yeah, the tools these guys have at Frontline 21, com are just awesome. They can help you help you guys out. So I do want to encourage you if you know, we've got to be protecting our family from just the cultural rot

that's happening all around us and it's going to take us embodying that spirit of what Jesus is doing right here in John chapter 19. So let's do it together guys. You can join us also, but go on over and visit the website. So frontline.21.com and if you missed the pornography

episode that we did do, I want to encourage you go back and listen to it. I think it was episode number 11, 97 of Unashamed. So check it out. But yeah, I mean, that's what we're doing here. That's what this whole thing is about dying to self, being born again. Romans 8, Paul says that to put, to be led by the spirit is to put to death, the misdeeds of the body.

And that comes through through our liturgies and our rhythms and the way that we live. But we're not going to understand that until we first understand the story of Jesus being the archetype of the one who would be crucified for our sin. And then you see what will come out of this is actually something incredible, which is salvation offered to humanity through his death and burial and resurrection. But that it is. So you're not going to get the death of self until you first get the death of Christ. Well, and Jay's, I mentioned this to you earlier before we came on,

that the idea is to understand being guided by the Holy Spirit, it takes some time living by that same guidance. It's like when you have your children, you know, you have some pretty basic rules early, and they understand that. I mean, there's a law in your household. You can do this. You can't do that. You make it real simple. And their young minds are shaped by that.

They understand that. There are some things I can't do. There's some things I can. But what you're doing in the big picture is you're training them for one day when they're not under your roof anymore, but they have to them make decisions that are right based on some sort of righteousness that's in them that you're. you've tried to create an atmosphere to happen. And so the course of their life is they're growing up and then they become young adults, you see that. That's why we look at our kids now.

All of us have grown children. And you realize that you did what you could do to get them prepared for where they're supposed to go. Well, that's what God does with us. I mean, when we become a new creature and the Holy Spirit lives in us, it takes a while to figure that out and to follow that spirit's lead. And so I think naturally we want to go back to law because it's like, well, I'm comfortable there because just give me the basics on what I can and can't do.

But that's not living. That's not what we're talking about. You've got to put that to death and bring something new into existence. Yeah, because you feel like if these Jewish leaders would have had the spirit of God in them, the thoughts of God, the wisdom of God, which the spirit represents, they would have been able to discern that one question you said. Yeah. Well, what if he is the son of God? Yeah.

What if it's true? Well, because the truth is, is that it doesn't say anywhere in the Old Testament or their law, it never said that you should be put to death for claiming to be the son of God. What it does say is, I think in Leviticus, I had this pulled up, Leviticus 24, is it 24? Yeah, Leviticus 24, anyone who blasphemes, the name of the Lord is to be put to death, the entire assembly must stolen them, whatever, whether foreign or native, born, when they blasphemed the name, capital N, they are to be put to death. So it wasn't the, it wasn't the claim itself, is that they were interpreting the claim as blasphemous because

they did not ask the question that you just said, if they'd had the Spirit of God, they'd be like, well, hold on, it's the claim true. Because it's the claim's true. Well, that's true. And I think that's why Jesus referred to himself as the son of man, which is just the son of a human. And, and, and, and, But he also, cleverly, referred to himself as I am, which is every time he did, they would say, you're blaspheming because they were familiar with that phrase going back to Exodus 3, which is interesting that Jesus did that. He wasn't going around with a poster saying, I'm the son of God. He was just doing things that represented him as the son of God.

It's very interesting. And I think that's why he did it that way. to your point, Zach. Because if you just flat out said it, well, I am the son of God. Instead, he would say, my father, which is what is the inference there? Well, if you keep referring to God as your father,

by saying that, you're declaring yourself as the son of God. Well, he did say the I and the father are one, and they didn't like that. Well, right, because he is the inference. It's not an inference, but I'm just, he's cleverly, with that Leviticus, where was that at, 24 in mine?

Yeah. Because he had to make this last until he got to a cross because that was the plan. He's defeating the powers that caused all this. I mean, I think there's something in there that's very powerful about how he... Well, it's interesting on this front because they probably would have had an understanding

by this time, which we're in the Second Temple Judaism now, in the text here. This is the first temple was destroyed by the Babylonian invasion. Cyrus rebuilds the temple. The whole Hebrew canon kind of ends with this, with this messianic Cyrus figure who's going to rebuild the temple. He does rebuild the temple. We're in Second Temple Judaism.

I think they probably would have understood the Son of Man reference to also be a messianic prophetic term for, like, they're thinking back to Daniel, and they're like, Right, I agree. I agree. And because what they got really mad about is that he was talking about his whole temple conversation that he said John 2 because they're coming back and they're saying, well, you know,

he said that he would destroy this temple and rebuild it in three days. Which he never said that. Yeah, he said that they would destroy the temple and he would rebuild it three days, speaking of his body. But it is interesting that the things that he's getting, what's really setting them off, I don't even think of us that he claimed to be Son of God. I think that it's what he's saying about the temple structure

because that was their locus of power. And so they're looking at this, and they're like, wait, if this is true, this guy's going to, like, rob us of our power. And so then he, so they're coming up with this other thing over here about blasphemy. Well, they even said that, Zach and John 11. Remember, after Lazarus was raised,

they said that. They said, if this fellow continues to live, Rome's going to come in and take away our place, our temple. And so they actually said that behind closed doors in John 11. So your point is well taken. That's exactly what they were thinking. And think about another thing that you don't read about in the Bible, but that you know from Jewish history during this era is there were a lot of people claiming to be the Messiah that they were the one. They were the settlement. Yeah, I think there was one on every street corner. Well, I want to, let me read this just far as review because Jesus, by doing this, going to a cross, being resurrected, and then point out his spirit in this new covenant where is discussed at length by Paul in various ways about the difference in faith and the law, keeping the law, the difference in having the spirit of God now appeals. to your conscience on a daily basis, this kind of renewal every day versus trying to follow the letter of the law. That profound statement in John 7, I keep going back to it, and I know we've read it many times, but I think it is something that you've got to keep in mind to make sense of all this. when he said in John 7 in verse 37 on the last and greatest day of the feast Jesus stood and said in a loud voice he's making a point loudly if anyone is thirsty let him come to me and drink whoever believes in me

as the scripture has said streams of living water will flow from within him and so this is what's making people mad and john zeroes in on that because he gives a let me tell you what this meant why is it making so many people mad by this he meant the spirit whom those who believed in him were later to receive up to that time the spirit had not yet been given since jesus had not yet been glorified and so you realize that some people when they heard this say well surely this man is is the prophet or is he the Christ still others asked well how can the Christ come from Galilee there's no way and they're not they're saying this cannot be the son of God because he's from Galilee and so the

people were divided verse 43 and some wanted to seize him but no one laid a hand on him so I think it gives kind of the background here. But he brings up that spirit, the spirit of not given. So fast forward to Paul's explanation, this is one of them I wanted to read. And I realize I'm taking this a little bit out of context just to make a point that I think is clever.

But I want to read this in 2nd Corinthians 3 and verse 3. So watch how Paul views this argument from a practical thing that he's talking with to the Corinthians. In verse three, he says, you show that you are a letter from Christ, which is an interesting way, because he's kind of bragging on them in one way, that your lives are a letter from Jesus Christ himself. The result of our ministry written not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God. So there's this transition from being under law, the Torah, the 613 laws and all the things that they had come up to go along

with it. And now, how do you live with the Spirit of the Living God? Not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts. So this is the transition that that pouring out of the Spirit that he was talking about, which by the way is why he said streams of living water. And then you get all this language about when the Spirit was poured out. It's like water. You're You remember Acts 2 when it's poured out? What kind of metaphor is that? You pour out water, and it's unpredictable. It's falling everywhere.

It's just coming out, this unleashing of the water. Well, it's the woman at the well. It'll become in you a spring welling up to eternal life. I want to add this to what you're saying, because it's super key what I said about John 2, when Jesus said, destroy this temple, and I'll rebuild it in three days. because I don't think you're taking the text out of context at all.

I think this is what I'm fixed to get to is what I'm going to be clever about. I want to hit this before you get there because John 19 is about the destruction of the temple. According to what Jesus said in John 2. Jesus said, destroy this temple and I'll rebuild it in three days talking about his body. I mean, that's what the text says. So when Jesus says that, he calls his body. the temple. So when you get to John 19 and there's this, we're at the scene of the crucifixion, well, what is he talking about? This is the moment that he talked about in John chapter two.

They are destroying the temple. And in three days, in fact, Christ will rebuild it and he will raise from the dead. This is so connected to the coming of the Holy Spirit that this is one of the biggest issues. I've said it before this podcast. You cannot divorce the death of Christ and the burial and the resurrection of Christ from the coming of the Holy Spirit. That's the point of it. That is the point of it. So when you read that language out of John 7,

which was, I don't know, it just hit me when you read it, it'll become, what was it again? Whoever believes in me out of this heart will flow rivers of living water? You know what popped in my mind when you read that? It was Ezeko 47 in Revelation 22 that talks about out of the temple a river is flowing out of the temple.

And that's in both Ezekiel's vision and the consummation in Revelation 22. What's he talking about? John 7 is, you are the temple. You are the place from which the stream of God, the river of God's going to flow out from people now. And so that's only possible if the Holy Spirit enduels us.

And he's only going to endwell us if Christ dies buried and is resurrected in his sins. Oh, I'm glad you brought it up. And the practical explanation of what you're saying, I've just now come to realize what we should say every time you say something like that is because it's flowing out of you. The law, because how many new Christians, their number one question is they come to Christ and they say, okay, what can I not do now? It's such a immature, which is understandable. It's like, tell me what I do and tell me what I do and tell me, what I don't do. And they're looking at it still from a law viewpoint in, okay, now that I understand Jesus, but then they still want to put themselves under law. How am I going to not do the things I was doing that got me into all this trouble? But you're getting a different picture by the Spirit, because it's now what you're called to represent and be. You're now imaging God.

But we focus as when we're young in the faith on, oh, I just need to not do the things written in the law. And now I have the ability it's like the spirit is there just to help you not do those things. But it's a flowing out

to be Jesus. You know, and it's done through love. You love other people which leads to sacrifice and these kinds of things in my opinion. It's flowing out. It's like the illustration of the dead sea. I mean, what's the problem? It doesn't flow out. Water goes in, but it doesn't flow out. And so what's the result? It's literally a dead sea.

So the sea has to flow out. This living water, the spirit, it's going to flow out. And the fruits of the spirit's a good illustration. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. All these things are flowing out. So with that in mind, I wanted to read the last two verses of that, Second Corinthians three. I left off on verse four. So he said, it's written by the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, verse three, but on human hearts.

Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God because you now have his spirit, his thoughts, his wisdom in your heart. He has made us competent as ministers.

Well, there's that, what I'm saying, the vocation. You're now ministers, 2ndthons 5 says ambassadors of a new covenant. There's a new covenant. Not of the letter, but of the spirit.

So it's not of the written commands, but it's the Spirit who is now thinking with your thoughts and giving you the ability to discern on how to be a minister on God's behalf. But this last phrase is what I wanted to get to that I said, I'm taking a little bit out of the context. For the letter kills. In John 19, it's literally killing Jesus because they're basing the law. They have this law that he's blaspheming because he's claiming to be the son of God, which Zach awesomely depicted was they were inferring that because of the statements he's making. But since he was from Galilee and a normal fellow, they're like, well, there's no way.

So it's blasphemy. So now we have the law and they're applying it. They're literally trying to kill him because of the law. But the spirit gives life. But I wanted to read this because when you're putting yourself under, the law, how graphic is this passage? The letter kills, but the spirit gives life. Make sure you're on the right side of that in your faith, that you're acknowledging that what I'm doing, I'm doing because of the spirit of God living in me under the new covenant,

and I should be a minister of that instead of some kind of rulekeeping system based on the old law. It reminds me, Jay said, though, our old friend, Jim McGuigan, when he would say legalism, it's a killer. You know, that was the idea that it would kill you. So, Jase, when you were reading that, actually I thought of this when you were talking about the timing of the festivals in the previous podcast, but now this verse like just jumps off the page at me for what you just read. And you said Paul went through this in other books.

In Galatians, four, he makes the same comparison we're talking about as a son versus a slave, meaning that inside a structure in a Galatian household, they would understand that slaves and sons were both there together. Both of them were under the ownership of whoever was the leader of that house, but he wanted them to look at their responsibility in two different ways. A slave only does so because of law and because of what he has to do. a son carries the responsibility of a father. And listen to what he said in Galatians 4-4 in comparison what we just had been talking about. When the time had fully come, and that's those festivals that we talked about before.

But when the time had fully come, God sent his son born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law. How did he do that? well he died on a cross he was put into a tomb he was raised he went back to the right hand of the father and then what happened that we might receive the full rights of sons how did that happen paul because you were sons god sent the spirit of his son into our hearts the spirit who calls out aba father so you are no longer a slave but a son and since you're a son god has made you also an heir So it's that same exact imagery told through a different prism to a different group of people, but it's exactly what we're talking about here.

And John 19 is the vehicle by which this redemption under law began. And so it's just, man, it's just, it's everywhere you look and almost every letter to see the power of what we're talking about here with the Holy Spirit and how that that then becomes our pathway of death to life, which is very powerful. Yeah. And as we enter into John 9. I think we should maybe look in to this, read these verses. Are we in verse 17?

We are, but I was looking up a point. Sorry, I got distracted. I think part of this when I was going kind of down a rabbit hole of kind of tracing back where this all started back to the garden, because I do believe, and I'm convinced, that Jesus is introducing not only a new covenant, but a new creation, which is why you get all this new creation language after his death,

bail and resurrection, and the pouring out of the spirit. And I think this temptation to put ourselves under law, it comes from books like proverbs, you know, where the whole thing is about knowledge and wisdom and basically lawkeeping. But I discovered, I forgot where I heard this,

and I looked it up last night because I was in a Bible study and we went here, but I'm kind of doing it off the top of my head right now. but I had never noticed this because I get so mad at the NIV for poor translations. And the reason I hadn't noticed this is because they missed something in here. But I

want to just try to attempt to do this and get your thoughts on it. But you know how Proverbs starts when it says, and you have, here's Solomon, the wisest man ever. He's depicted at that. And he starts this off and says

verse 2 of 1, for attaining wisdom and discipline, the Proverbs of Solomon, for obtaining wisdom, discipline, understanding, words of insight, for acquiring a disciplined and prudent life, doing what is right, just and fair, for giving prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the young, let the wise listen and add to their learning and get their discerning, and let the discerning get guidance for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings, and riddles of the wise.

And so then verse seven, which is a famous verse, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline. What I did not know is in verse, when you get to verse 22, you're going to love this. He says, how long will you simple ones love your simple ways, how long will mockers delight and mockery, and fools hate knowledge,

and then 23 says, repent at my rebuke. Then I will pour out my spirit on you. Now, it's the, I looked it up in the Hebrew. It's the word ruha, the same spirit that was hovering over the waters, the same spirit in John 7. But the NIV translates it thoughts. That's why I've been saying that, like you're having the thought, because they translated it thoughts of God.

But isn't that something? and I will make known to you my teachings. Well, he combines this knowledge that comes from the law with him one day pouring out his spirit, which I found fascinating. What also I found fascinating is when you get to chapter three in verse 18 talking about wisdom, because look, this all is talking about being white. Who is wise and understanding, let him show up by his good life. You know, that's in James.

But they're getting that all from this book of Proverbs on how to be wise. But look what he says in 318, talking about wisdom and figuring out how to apply the command. So first you have this reference of one day he will pour out his spirit. And then verse 18, it says, she is a tree of life to those who embrace her. Those who lay hold of her will be blessed. And the reason I'm skipping there, when you go back to chapter 1 in verse 28, he gives this picture of this fruit, a fruit tree, 28 of chapter 1. Then they will call to me, but I will not answer.

They will look for me, because he addresses people who won't listen to him. Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord, which is why, by the way, he's going to pour out his spirit. Since they would not keep my advice and spurn my rebuke, they will eat the fruit of their ways and be filled with the fruit of their schemes. But he's using that fruit language, this tree, which takes you back to the garden. For the waywardness of the simple will kill them

and the complacency of fools will destroy them. But whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at ease without fear of harm. And I read all that to say, that's what the spirit is. It's the spirit of God. You're listening to the spirit so intimately and personally rather than trying to apply a list of rules

because of our human weakness. we start manipulating the laws and figuring out, oh, what's the least amount I can do to be right with God or whatever that goes? Because the bottom line is the law just exposed the sin instead of actually doing something about it because they continue to be unfaithful to the law up until Jesus redeemed us from the law, which is my point. No, that's good. I love that, Jason. So you see where I'm going with that, it's like, so when Paul in First Corinthians, when he says, Christ is our wisdom. it takes a whole new meaning on to it. And when you go back to the garden, you're seeing them by that choice.

It's like, here's a tree. And I think their response kind of shows you this earthly versus heavenly response because that tree of knowledge of good and evil, when they chose not to trust God and they ate of the tree, something interesting that I noticed last night, is the first thing they did after that was they actually took the leaves off the tree and made coverings for themselves.

We always focus on the second thing where God made skins and put it on them. But isn't that funny how once they chose not to trust God, this idea of shame, this idea of the consequence for them not trusting God, cause them to like make themselves look like a tree, you know, try to put leaves over them. And then God comes in, gives the clarity of what just happened. And then he covers them with skins, which is now saying that something was sacrificed.

That's good. Yeah. I've never thought about it. There's two coverings. It's one that man did on themselves, which is kind of silly in that, oh, no. what just happened, but it shows you how it affected their conscience. So what does man do if they're just under a law? They try to cover it up in embarrassing ways, which I'm glad they did.

Here's what it is. Here's what it is. They're taking, so you've got to go back to the beginning. It's really good, that the creation was given to man, who was also created, to cultivate and to have dominion over. And so the idea would be man sits as a priest, Adam sat as a priest, which means he would take the creation, the gift from God. He would cultivate them and turning them back into praise to God.

So there's not a barrier between heaven and earth. It's actually all one. It's just one, they're working in conjunction together. So what man effectively does, and woman, for that matter, but mankind does post-fall is, yeah, they take the creation itself. and instead of cultivating it, they use it as a barrier between heaven and earth. That's the separation.

They use the creation itself, the leaves off the tree that they... Which is the earthly... Look, maybe I should read this, and I think it'll make sense why I went to Proverbs and why it led me here. Because what is Proverbs all about? Wisdom.

So let's just pick the story up in Genesis 3, 4, where it says, you will not surely die, the servant said to the woman, for God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be open and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. Now, watch this next phrase. When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, that's why when I went from Proverbs, I came back here, because it's all about wisdom, which is why I zeroed in on that 122 and 23,

where it says, one day I'll put my spirit so you can listen to me and know my thoughts. But she took some and ate it. So then she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were open, and they realized they were naked. So here was the point I was making.

So they took things of the earth, right? So they sowed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. There's your earthly shameful act of doing something that was legally wrong in an attempt to have wisdom. And so then later on, you know, here, the man and his wife hear the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden. And the Lord God called him, where are you? I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid. I was naked, so I hid, is what Adam said. And he said, then God said, who told you that you were naked?

So he's like going through the process of what they've done. Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from? Because this is what humans do when they do something that they knew they shouldn't have done. They start lying. They start trying to cover up their shame. in earthly ways. The man said the well and then we start blame shifting the woman you put here was she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate it. Then the Lord God said to the woman what is it you've done and then he goes through all the consequences for this and he brings up the

evil ones involvement he's cursed and then when it says verse 22 and the Lord God said the man has now becoming like one of us knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and also take from the tree of life, which is why I read that from Proverbs 318, and eat and live forever. So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. Where's that where he clothed them? I missed it. Oh, that's 21.

The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. then he said what I just read. So I found that fascinating. Well, and to take that one more level, if you go to Genesis 4, you see the next generation now of this fall, Zach, this idea of now we've got this post-Haven and Earth relationship because they've been banned from the garden. And so you see Abel, who still has a heart for God because he's tends the flocks. And he's giving us a subject. And he's giving us a sacrifice to God the best of what he has. Kane, who is doing just the opposite.

He tends the fields. So, Jay's a leaf man. You know, he's growing things. But he doesn't give God the best. And so God is pleased with Abel's sacrifice, not Keynes. And what's Kane's response instead of a heart towards God that says, I want to try to do what you want me to do? He kills his brother.

He's jealous. His response is jealousy and then murder. And so we then. end de-evolve generation to generation until we get to Genesis 6, where every thought of man is wickedness, save for one family. So I think you see the results of what happens as you move away from what God intended for humanity, and you just see it right there clearly through a family structure. And I see this guy's same thing today. And where this ties in the casting out of the garden is that when God says that they can't eat from this tree and live forever,

the reason why is because to allow them to live in the created state of the garden, where the whole point of the garden, as we've said before, it was the original temple. So it was heaven and earth working together, where Adam and Eve were actually unadulterately communing with God, taking creation, consuming it for food, cultivation, all these things. having dominion, turning it back into praise of God. Now they've driven a wedge in between them and God.

They put that barrier. They actually took the creation, and now they're blocking the connection between heaven and earth in the form of, I don't want to be seen. And God is, in an act of grace, is looking at that situation. He said, to live in this state forever would actually be hell.

And you see that as it plays out because, you know, Kaine was in his own hell. I mean, you can name names, I mean, you see this thing run out, and to use the creation in that way and not in communion with God is really what hell is going to be. That's kind of the definition of hell

to be shut out from the presence of the Lord on the day that he returns. And I like the fact that even after the fall, Abel still had a heart that was trying to do what was right. And I'll say this, one more thing, just before you speak, in Hebrews 12, 24, when the Hebrew writer is describing the third temple and the kingdom, Zach,

he says Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, is in this kingdom, and to the sprinkle blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. And that's the link back that we're talking about. I mean, that's the idea that this is an eternal covenant that goes on now forever with God, which Abel's sacrifice couldn't do. But I was able's blood hit the ground and it says that it cry to avenge me. Exactly. And so the blood of Christ speaks another blood because another word, a better word,

as it says, reconcile, you know, grace. Exactly. Well, what I wanted to say, that's why I brought this up when they're justifying, killing him, handing him over because of the law. And you're looking at the big picture as far as a new creation being established. because basically Jesus on a cross is going to be the new tree of life in death of sin, breaking the law, and then he's pouring out the spirit. And I think all these things connect in that light going back to the garden,

which is what I was getting at, which is why I went to Proverbs and back to Genesis. But I wanted to give a practical illustration of this, because even in when you think about Jesus establishing his new covenant and he's like taking the bread and he's taking the fruit of the vine and making this illustration well the fruit of the vine is an interesting illustration because talking about wisdom because it can be good because Jesus is saying I guess because it was red and it was the fruit of a tree going back to the two trees in the garden that the whether it's an illustration or literal but it can also be bad because you have plenty of verses especially in the book of proverbs saying well don't get drunk on wine but you could also

take a sip of it and remember what jesus did as he represented the new covenant would you all agree with that yeah so i wanted to give an illustration of that because i on a practical way this is how the spirit helps you to discern. And I wanted to read, it's kind of a comical section in Proverbs 23, talking about getting drunk. But I wanted to give an illustration for this. So this is Proverbs 2329. He says, who has woe, who has sorrow, who has strife, who has complaints, who has needless bruises, who has bloodshot eyes?

So he gives you a riddle. What is the answer to all those questions? If you see some other. I was a drunk person. Well, the next verse says, those who linger over wine, who go to sample bowls of mixed wine, do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup. And I looked up the Hebrew of this. It's like the phrase for it, it winks at you.

It's like it gives it a, actually like it's got a face saying, oh, come on and get this. When it goes down smoothly. but here's why I wanted to read this because verse 32 says in the end it bites like a snake what does that sound familiar where's that language coming from the evil and what we just read

Genesis 3 was operating like a snake but here's something that's good because it's the fruit of the vine it can be good but it can also be bad so how do we discern what the problem is so then it says

and it poisons like a viper, your eyes will see strange things in your mind, imagine confusing things. You will be like one sleeping on the sea, on the high seas lying at the top of a rigging. They hit me, you say, but I'm not hurt. They beat me, but I don't feel it. And when I will wake up so I can find another drink. It's like this. It's describing the life of someone who's an alcoholic.

The reason I read it is because when you fast forward to what God presented in Jesus, not only to forgive us, to get us out from under the written law, but to give us the spirit. Will you take a passage like Ephesians 5? And it says verse 15, you know, be very careful how you live, not as unwise, but as wise. It goes back to that same theme that when Eve was desiring wisdom, because it's hard to make these decisions. and the whole book of pre-proverbs. But, you know, right there at the first,

he's like, one day you'll know, you'll be able to listen to me because I'll give you my spirit. And then watch what he says in verse 17. Understand what the Lord's will is. Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the spirit. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns,

the spiritual songs, sing and make music in your heart. Always giving thanks to the Father for everything. in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. So I just really think it's a great picture where what Jesus is accomplishing is not only forgiving us, there's way more than that. He's given us the ability through this death and death to ourselves that we can now house God. And like Zach said, the place where heaven and earth meet.

And we're literally getting the thoughts of God through the spirit in our heart. Every day. That's what it means to be living by the spirit. Every day you're able to discern what God wants for your life because you have the spirit in your inner being. Which is what we've been witnessing is his three years with this group of men that have not understood but believe in him. And once he's resurrected and then him leaves them literally by flying away and says, I promise the whole, Holy Spirit is going to come and then you're going to take this to the next generation, which is exactly what happens. So, man, that's another big picture, another rabbit hole that really shows the importance of where we're at in John 19. So next time, because we're out of time.

So next time on the podcast, we'll pick it up from here. Thanks for listening to The Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.