Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1214 | John Luke Can’t Master a Famous Robertson Pastime & the Bible’s Most Important Book

Episode Date: November 21, 2025

Al, Zach, Christian, and John Luke welcome the return of Dr. Justin Jackson of Hillsdale College for a funny and fascinating deep dive into Exodus. Christian invites Al to a workout he justifiably declines, and John Luke admits there’s a classic Robertson pastime he just can’t master. Dr. Jackson explains why Exodus may be the most important book in the Bible, how Pharaoh mirrors Satan, and why God consistently uses weakness to reveal his strength. The guys explore Moses’ transformation from stuttering and lacking confidence to a face-to-face relationship with God. In this episode: Exodus 1–20; Exodus 32–34; Genesis 1; Genesis 9; Genesis 12; 2 Corinthians 3, verses 12–18; Daniel 7, verse 13; John 1, verses 1–5 Today's conversation is an overview of The Exodus Story taught by Hillsdale Professor Justin Jackson. Take the course with us at no cost to you! Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/⁠ More about The Exodus Story: Explore God’s mercy as he leads Israel out of slavery in Egypt. Exodus is a central narrative of the Bible. It recounts the moment that God reclaims Israel as his people, rescues them from slavery in Egypt, and establishes the Ten Commandments to guide their moral and religious freedom as an independent society. In “The Exodus Story,” Professor of English Justin Jackson picks up the biblical narrative where his course on Genesis ended. Join Professor Jackson in learning about the nature of God’s mercy, human freedom, and the relationship between the divine and man. Enroll today to discover the beauty of God reclaiming the Israelites through his mercy and love in “The Exodus Story.” Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters: 00:00-04:25 Physical fitness helps heal mental illness 04:26-10:34 The most important book in the Bible 10:35-17:10 The weakest ones show God’s strength17:11-25:04 God corrects Moses with tough love 25:05-31:12 Conquering death is what the Bible is about 31:13-35:40 Moses & his high testosterone level 35:40-41:00 Why did God withhold his name for so long? — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? I feel like I'm one of the Marvel people next to the Incredible Hulk over here. I just trying to get on camera. Look at him. Captain America. He must work out.

Sometimes. Very bulky. Sometimes. We should do a workout together. Yeah, let's do that. Just wait. I'll come to you. Does he still have any workout program courses?

Oh, my goodness. There's a gym in every single bill. the reason why is because they're starting to push that if you have mental problems, that one of the best things you can do is go exercise. That's awesome. That explains a lot about that. That's why you're so mentally stable. Yeah.

Ain't much stable guy we know. Or he's very mentally ill. That's why he's so fit. So yeah, so they all do it on campus students, profs. Oh, yeah. So you're going to work out with him? Not me, but. No.

Come on. You're not going to work out with it. I'll just walk over to his house. back. That's my work out. I don't, I don't work out with people that look like Christian. I find it helpful to have a five pound weight on my glass of bourbon. Yeah. Now, I'm going to work out with it. That's my workout. So welcome back to Unashamed for Hillsdale. We've got Justin Jackson with us,

the doctor's in the house. Glad to be here. Yeah. And so just act like you have like a troubled student in Italy Christian. And so you're right across and you're just, though this whole podcast, you're just like trying to somehow save this young man from himself. From himself. Got it. Okay.

So just so we'll know. We were talking about as we were getting to know you better, that you like to play poker. Correct. And are you good at it? Do you play other professors? Or how does that? Yeah.

So I'll say this, just so my friends don't mock me. I'm not very good. I said you were like Uncle Sy the last time you were here. So I play with a guy from accounting, finance, math, croft. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's pretty nuts. You got some card counters. Oh, yeah.

And we all kind of know what we're doing. And it's a great time. Oh, actually, probably the, I think probably the best player of all of us. I don't know that I want to say that completely. but he's actually the director of our music program at the college. He's a heck of a player. James Holliman, really good player. He plays mathematics, right?

Yeah. I mean, and he plays in a lot of tournaments. So my brothers like to play, and then my Uncle Sy likes to play, but we call Uncle Cy's nickname is the ATM because the flow seems to go one of you. You can always get, well, there's no mathematics involved. It's just pure gut feeling. So you never know what is going to happen. I mean, any hand could be, he'll bet the same with pocket aces or seven, two, or three, four.

It doesn't matter. He's betting and it's big. If you ever get a text about coming to join to Play Pook or do you text back like, I will be there however, howsoever I will. Howsoever I will be there? With my money. Yes, that's what it wants to. I will be there.

We'll be there. We just finish Exodus. Not to the Exodus. Just as long as I bring my $300, I will be there. I will be there. Well, Jay says, because, you know, he talks about a lot on this podcast. And he says, it's not gambling. Because he's not gambling.

Because people are like, you know, gambling, you guys, you know, you don't talking about that. He says, it's not gambling when you can't, what does he say? When you don't lose? When you don't lose, I think is what he says. So he's saying he never loses is why it's not going to him. Oh, well. You know, I don't, he's a bit arrogant too.

Yeah, I don't consider it. I don't consider it gambling, except whenever I lose on the river. I have to scream at someone for gambling. Tell them that they're polluting this game. It's a sweet science. Quit beat me on the river. So that's where the luck in the gambling comes out.

That's my whole strategy. You're a huge river guy. I was a big river guy. That's all John Luke does. They call me the whitewater rafter. I'm just running the river. River raft. We're in the book of,

Well, finish the book of Exodus or the story of Exodus. And we, if you're not taking these courses with us, you can go to Unashamed for Hillsdale.com and take the courses. They're free. They gave you eight episodes of Exodus. So that I was, because Genesis, you only have five. Correct. So we expand the offering.

Yeah. They gave me eight, but that was only because they were in a really bad predicament. They had paid the production company to be on campus to shoot another online course. And for whatever reason, that course got shelved. The person couldn't make it. And so they called me and they're like, the production team's here. Like, can you give us Exodus? Like, please. Oh, yeah. You were loaded for Bar. I'm not doing five. I'm not doing six. I'm going to get. And, you know, as you guys know, we do one through 20, chapters one through 20, skip the temple and all of those. then chapters, what, 34 to 36? That's not much. I got eight episodes out of that. So it's,

I think everyone will find it's a very more thorough course and being able to go through it. I mean, it really is almost verse by verse that I go through it. It was enjoying. Well, we asked that question at breakfast again. What's the, like, we were kind of, what's the most important book in the Bible? They're all important, but we were just talking about, the question was, the Old Testament, that what has the most significance? And you let up when I asked that question. And you seem to have a very strong opinion.

Yeah, because my correct answer is supposed to be, if I'm going to be, if I'm going to be properly orthodox, I shall say, the correct answer is the gospel of John. So there are certain hierarchies in historical biblical criticism. And John is at the top. No, right? But no, that wasn't my answer. My answer was the Exodus.

I think Exodus is the most important book in Scripture because all of the New Testament is meditating on the Exodus. If Exodus is from slavery to freedom, we ask, well, slavery to what freedom from? What is that slavery? It can be, it can very easily be slavery to sin, disobedience. I have no problem with that.

I think that's about right. think that's why God has to exercise his patience so much throughout the entire book. But if you were to push me and say, okay, so from slavery to freedom, what's that really about? My answer is pretty simple. It is a freedom from death. I take that as our existential curse. I take that as a fear of dying makes one inherently selfish. Yeah. Because you're worried about yourself. But what did our God come and show us? And it's not about, it's about a self-offering. It's about living a sacrificial life.

As Christ says, take up your cross. Well, take up your cross so that you just go and eat dirt and that's that. I don't know about that. But if the whole point is that there's eternal life, what are we freed from? We're freed from death. That means all of, if you take that just basic existential fact, and you believe it, you trust in it, you have faith in this. your life looks very, very different because you don't worry about all sorts of material things that you have

because the most material that you have, your life is gone except not now. So I think, and that's why I think it's the most important because it pretty much sets up all of these gospel narratives. I mean, I think much of Matthew is just kind of demonstrating the way in which... Kind of a new exodus. It's a new exodus, or we could say it's a fulfilled. of the Exodus. It makes radically clear those things which were maybe slight shadows still in the Exodus. It makes it abundantly clear what's going on here. It makes it abundantly clear

who the principles and principalities, the powers and principalities in this world actually are. And so, you know, for Matthew, it's Satan. It's the demons. But ultimately, they are the masters of that death and they need to be crushed. It's funny. You know, so I'm a medieval. medievalist by training. And oftentimes when you get medieval stories about the Exodus, so in the Middle Ages, they like to rewrite Bible stories, which is fascinating, not translate, but rewrite them. And the changes they make to the narrative, you get great theological insights because you say, oh, you just made that detail up. And it's not that they're being unfaithful to the text. They're just trying to tease out the theology of the text. And all the time, Pharaoh,

guess who he's related to from all of these Christian medievalists. He's always related to Satan or a demon. But it would make sense because whom does God crush? Pharaoh. Whom does God crush Satan? You see? And so I think it's a vital importance for the New Testament. I thought was interesting.

Go ahead. Oh, well, I just want to, I think it's interesting. You said the medievalists would make things up because my thought process, my immediate reaction was like, and I think for a lot of people, especially who tend more towards legalism, would be like, oh, they're making stuff up. That's like an immediate no. Like, that's a not true. But then I thought, we actually do that all the time when we tell the Bible stories to our kids. Like, we reword the story and emphasize certain things, like the story of Noah. Like when I'm reading, you know, a kid's book to my kids about Noah or I'm just telling them the story of Noah,

I'm emphasizing God's love, how God is the Savior, and I'm just totally leaving out some the parts of the flood, you know, different parts, so that their little three-year-old minds can understand what I'm saying. You're not reading Ezekiel 23 to them. Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm re-wording and emphasizing certain things so they can understand it in what they can as a three-year-old.

I just thought that was interesting to say that. No, that's right. No, that's right. You know, I know we're talking about Exodus, but one of the things that got me in trouble on the Genesis course. It wasn't even my fault, mind you. It was the production team. So I blame them completely.

So I get out of them now. Thank you. Whenever the beginning... We blame them all the time. They're just out of a side of it. At the beginning, whenever they have that clip and it goes, how does a snake walk? How's a snake talk?

Right? There's actually a real explanation in the course if they just look up the supplemental material. But they knew that was a hook. They knew people are going to be intrigued by this question. but I was trying to make that point. You've never thought about a literal walking, talking snake, because what do we point to? That it's Satan. Right.

And it turns out that's in the rabbinic tradition. So it's funny, the thing that got me in trouble, I was actually trying to show them. Here's how you could read it literally, and there's, in fact, a rabbinic story that goes along with it. But we always fill in those details that aren't actually there inside of the text. Nothing there tells us that it is an angel, right? It's the Satan who has embodied this. Right. It's not there.

Yeah. So you're right. And so you ask those questions. So we do that. So yeah, the Middle Ages, they love doing that. But they always associate Pharaoh with Satan. And it makes perfect sense, right? Right.

One of the things you see with Satan and Pharaoh both are how they try to thwart the ultimate will of God, which is at first, you know, you were when we got into Exodus, the way it begins is so interesting to me. because you had mentioned in our last podcast we had you on when we wrapped up Genesis, you emphasized how much of the story of Genesis is about Joseph at the end of it in terms of just how many chapters are dedicated to Joseph. And the way that the Exodus story begins is with Joseph. And it's interesting to me that it actually goes back all the way to the creation when it says that, because remember the cultural mandate was to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.

And then you have the, and then the flood happens. And in Genesis 9, it's the same exact command after to be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth. And then really kind of the same thing that he tells Abraham or Abram and Genesis 12. And then Israel, when you get to the story of Exodus, is actually doing that. They're being, literally says they were fruitful and multiplied and filled the land. And so I always see it like, okay, what is Satan's ultimate agenda? He wants to stop the fruitful multiplication of life and the exercising of dominion over the earth. So Pharaoh is that figure.

Yeah, absolutely. And it turns out, and again, I don't want to go too allegorical, typological here, but let's just talk about what Pharaoh's doing. He's not bright. Like he wants to try to put these people, let's crush them, and they become more fruitful. Okay. Yeah. So if you remember the Genesis, one of my favorite lines actually comes from Hagar,

when the angel says, God has heard your suffering, now go suffer. And I try to make the point. That sounds to me like it's the history of Israel. What's Pharaoh making them do? Suffer. And what do they do under that suffering? Multiple. So there's something really beautiful.

Everything he does, he's thwarted. He's just undercut, again, not to be allegorical or typological, but I don't know. if you guys notice, the people who were subverting him at the beginning of the story, they're all women. They're subverting. Uh-huh. First, it's the Hebrew midwives and then his own daughter. And we talked about this at breakfast.

His daughter, what do we know about him? And I had not realized that. Yeah, you share that because you, you, I thought that was a profound insight. But, hey, before you do, make sure if you're not taking this course, you're like, what are you guys talking about? We're talking about the story of Exodus. You can take this course for free. We just finished it up.

We're going to move on to the story of David next, by the way. way so you can sign up for that as well. But we want to hear from you guys. Yeah, I want to hear from you guys. Tell us what you want. And you can sign up after David. I'm trying to give our plug here. The courses are free.

You don't have to pay for them. And you can sign up at unashamed for hillsdale.com. Talk about subverting and thwarting. They keep telling you the courses you're going to teach and you're like, ah. And we're all thwarted by women on a regular basis. Let's call our wives. Or Mattie. We got Maddie.

Or Maddie. So, yeah, you mention what you mentioned at breakfast about. Yeah, so Pharaoh's daughter we actually know in First Chronicles. She's part of the genealogy of Israel, which means she left with the Israelites, along with what depends on your translation, either the mixed multitude or altar calls it the motley throng, the era of Rav. Or if you combine the words, it means the riffraff. It means outsiders, foreigners went along. Not Israel, though.

That's the point. A lot of Israel, here's what's interesting. And knowing this, you know, how many of you have ever thought, oh, maybe that's where the idolatry began? What if it's these individuals who are going along with Israel are going, hey, this is how we deal with our gods when they don't answer us? We build statues. That's how they respond to us.

That's very much a rabbinic reading. It's either the outsiders or, you know, the two men who were fighting whenever Moses steps in and they say, who are you to judge us? Are you going to kill us the way in which you killed the Egyptian man? The rabbis also like to see those two as the ones who are moving towards idolatry, who are getting the people to commit idolatry as well. So yeah, and this shouldn't surprise anyone who's read the Hebrew Bible. The idea of weakness, the youngest son, a daughter, Hebrew midwives. The Hebrew midwives is one of my favorite details, They say, why didn't you kill the babies like I told you?

It's great. They go and they say, they're much heartier than we are. They're using that animal imagery that he uses against him. Like you see them as just disgusting animals. We're going to run with that. You'll believe us. There's that subversion there. So it shouldn't surprise us that it always seems to be the weakest.

And I think in some ways it's that weakest, the younger brother, or whatever it is, women, that's supposed to show us the strength of God. He can take the least. There's nothing, right? You know, you can just think of Goliath whenever he looks at David. And he's like, are you going to come at me with sticks? Like, I'm some sort of a dog. Like, here I am, I'm ready for this.

It turns out David's ready for the battle. David's probably more ready for the battle than he has. But that's the whole point is that there's a strength in finding the weak and lifting them up. That's the whole point of the right hand of God. I've always thought this where why Rahab story, when you get over to Joshua, is there. Because it seems like such an odd thing to put in scripture,

but again, it's the same thing. Here's this woman. She's running this house of a repute. And she's in Hebrews. Yeah. And she's in the genealogy in Matthew. No, I mean, that's, I mean, look, that's exactly. There's something, you know,

we were talking about the genealogies at breakfast in the New Testament. they're kind of embarrassing. It's Tamar. You're like, I think I remember the story of Tamar. Are we really going? That's the beauty of it all. To take that weakness. And that's the point.

I mean, look at Moses. Whatever his condition is, he can't speak well. He's like, I'm no man for this God. And God's like, nevertheless. I mean, there comes to a point wherever the battle is there. He can't even lift his arms anymore. It's like keep him. But that's the point.

It's like, yes. there's that weakness. Just remember who goes to Christ's tomb, who are the first to discover, which there's an irony there because they're supposed to go and give witness. And they couldn't even give a witness. In court, they can't even do testify.

It really is just, it's really pretty stunning to me. And I think that's supposed to be the absolute strength of scripture is to demonstrate that God actually has your back. Like whatever limitations you have, whatever, you know, whatever those things may be, it doesn't matter, addictions, it doesn't matter, whatever your weakness is, it's okay. Yeah.

Because your God is more powerful than the others. I think that's really what's going on here. And you made the point that I thought was really strong that I hadn't thought of before since Moses was representative and was the right hand of God dealing with this situation, Pharaoh viewing himself as a God is now being defeated by a mere man. A stutterer? I mean, yeah, I had that point. Yeah, because when I read it, I always think about Pharaoh versus God,

but you kind of talked about, yeah, like Pharaoh's looking at Moses, and he's like, yeah, this dude's defeating me? Yeah, like it had to be such a... And not only that, but he also has to ask Moses to intercede for him. Yeah. Okay, I've sinned this time. Yeah. Will you go call off your God?

That's pretty amazing to have a God telling you go call off your God and to say, you have power over me. Mm-hmm. But that's kind of the motif even that begins in Genesis 1, that we are, our role, we mentioned in a previous podcast that are priests. And so we're kind of like vice regents of God. So you see that exercising the God working through humanity to accomplish his will. And that's why when we pray, thy will be done on earth just as it is in heaven.

In other words, like we want what's happening here in Monroe right now, West Monroe, to be done your will to be done here just like it is in heaven. But if you were to go back and write this story and you're going to, pick the people who are going to be your vice regents, we would pick no one that God picks. It's never, like it wasn't Esau, it was Jacob. I'm like, Jacob's one, he's the second born, two, he's a deceiver. Deceiver.

It's never the, and then you get to the story of Joseph and you think, well, it wouldn't be, it's not going to be Joseph for sure. And then once a story plays out, you're like, oh, it will be Joseph. Nope, that's not the line through which you came. It wouldn't even Joseph. It's even our second choice. Everything, nothing, it's like God's going, the redempted path of the Messiah. It just comes through the wildest of genealogy.

Even the Joseph's story, so you want a weakness a man who sells out his brother, but then that strength that's there, it's all over. Which again, back to that, to Matthew 1, and they added the seed line coming through Judah. From Judah. Across time. And it's really interesting because the story shifts into Joseph's family. but it's those 12 that will then carry that going forward in the promised land and all the stuff that happens after, which is really interesting. You know, we were talking about the gospel of Mark earlier.

I don't know if you've noticed the pattern in Mark, but the disciples are constantly rebuked. The disciples are going with Christ all the time, and then you'll have outsiders who act faithfully to Christ. And you just kind of look at the disciples going, what's your problem? but they are supposed to be the 12 tribes of Israel. Right. And so I think it's a continuation of your week, don't worry, I've got your back. And why?

Again, I think it's a really simple, I think it's a simple narrative because God made a promise. Yeah. And it's happening. Yeah. And you can either participate or not, but I'm not leaving you.

The good news is I'm not leaving you. Right. The bad news is I'm not leaving you. because that usually is going to mean it's time for suffering. Well, at first, you know, you had mentioned in one of the Exodus courses that Moses hid his face from God. I thought it was such a beautiful point. And I think about like our own life, like how you, when you first encounter God in whatever way that is, I got to hide myself from this God because I know who I am.

And Moses did that, but then when you get to Exodus 32, Okay. And he's like, I'm not going, if your presence doesn't go with me. Then he wants to see the face of God. He's like, let me see your face with 32, 33, 34. And it's like, it's a whole different mind shift. But he'd been walking with God in the wilderness for quite a bit of time. You brought up, you know, 32 through 34.

So this beautiful moment when God, and whenever the Israelites are committing idolatry. and God goes, your people are committing idolatry. And Moses goes, oh, what are your people? Now, do I think God's trying to disown Israel? I do not. Do I think he's trying to get Moses to come around to be on behalf of Israel? I do. I think Moses has a certain wrath, an understanding of God,

which I don't know is completely accurate. it. So I think what God's trying to do is kind of perform for him. These are your people. Go do something for them. And he's like, they're your people. And that whole right hand of God. They're arguing over who's really the right hand here. And I think God's trying to point out to Moses, you're the right hand. God really works on Moses. That one part when they're in the wilderness. And he says, you got to do something. If I'm pushed a little bit more, they're going to kill me. And do you remember what God says to him? Go walk in front of them. Walk right in front of them. So two readings there. One, sorry, Moses, you're going to get over yourself. My favorite reading of this actually comes from Rashi, medieval exegete. And his point, and I love it, it's a smart reading. His point is that God knows Israel won't do that to Moses and that Moses doesn't have faith in Israel. Moses is thinking, they're going to scapegoat me. For all of their problems, they're taking me down. And Rashi's reading is, God's like, don't worry, my people will not do that to you.

Now, go walk in front of them. So you have that. So there's a lot of that give and take between God and Moses. But I don't take it as God saying, I want nothing to do with the people. I think he's trying to correct Moses. So much so that by the end, this is what I mean by that. What's the ultimate growth of Moses by the end of it all? His face gloats with what we call the cavode of God, the glory of God,

because he's looking face to face. So much so, remember how he has to come back down? They put a veil. What else is veiled? Temple, the Holy of Holies. What is Moses at the... He is the Holy of... In this interaction with God, my goodness.

To be taking the glory of God off the mountain like that, that's to begin as a stutterer who says, please, this is no job for me. to your face is glowing with the glory of God. Yeah, I think that's a pretty good character development. There must be in Paul real quick. Before I say this, you can sign up to take the class with us for free at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. It's free.

We're finishing up Exodus moving next into the story of David. But when you were mentioned in that, his face shining like that, I just think about what Paul said in Second Prince III. When he says, now we all with unveiled faces, you know, and we're beholding who God. is. And so that's why we, I think you're right, this Exodus is such an important piece, because even Paul's going to appeal back to this moment when he gets to his letter to the Corinthian Church. And his point is it's only in Christ's that veil removed where you can actually see and experience the presence of God, which connects perfectly with this temple motif. Which I've always said, I think, a big portion of the book of Exodus, if you read it,

it kind of ends really with the construction of the tabernacle. And so it's kind of right there at Exus 25, kind of in the meat of it all where I know we don't really get into that in the course, but that construction of the tabernacle, which when you read those details, they seem so, I used to read them as like, I skipped through the genealogies, and I skip through the construction of the temple and the tabernacle, because I'm like, ah, who cares about the,

how many cubits this is. It doesn't matter, insignificant. No. This is a picture of Eden. This is like, I mean, this is very significant. Oh, yeah, I agree. And not only that, but in, say, take Moses's, Noah's Ark, it's it's giving you exact. Yeah. Well, for me, this is just the pattern of the Hebrew Bible. Yeah. You've disobeyed. There's an exile. There's going to be a return. There's got to be a remnant. Here's your, I think it's proto-temple imagery. The New Testament understands it completely. That's all baptism imagery. Sure.

Right. Right. But it's still that temple imagery that you're getting there with the ark with the remnant, those are the ones who are saved. And you'll see it again and again. There are lots of people who, lots of scholars, and let me just say, I agree with this part of the scholarship, that there isn't any evidence of the size of this Exodus. Yeah. Like we don't know. you would think if they have 600,000 men, and it says not counting women and children, that's got to be two, three million.

Right. Right. So, oh, where is it? Where are all the chariots? Though they think they found some chariots there on the Ritzie. But still. And they work hard to archaeologically. But you're bringing up the temple. That's actually my argument that I think that it actually, there is real history, that it's not just. just simply a story inspired. You understand, I'm not saying whole cloth. Right. An inspired story that never happened for the great faith of Israel. Right. But I don't think that's the case. But it's the temple imagery,

because the temple imagery used in Exodus, it mimics Egyptian temples. There's no way, if this is all Babylonian exile text, there's no way Israel knows what those Egyptians. temples look like. Does that make sense? So I think there's actually textual evidence that there was contact and they did spend time in Egypt precisely because all of their temple imagery is mimicking what the, which would make sense, right? Because they don't have all of their blueprint yet or anything like this. It looks just like it. So I always looked at the temple imagery just in that

historical way that's in that text to go, oh, I think they had access. I thought about it in terms of that curtain that separates the Holy of Holies, God's presence from the people, which is kind of the Mount Sinai moment, right? It's also the Garden of Eden when they were cast out, and then the sheriff of them guard the entrance. Well, that's sewn into this temple now. And so you think about, man, what does this matter? Well, when you get to the New Testament, you realize in Christ that now we do have access to the Father.

That's right. Like through Christ by the, by the spirit. And so you think, man, this is like what God's doing here. And I think that speaks to like where people are at because like it's the loneliness. It's the isolation. Jesus said if a grain of wheat falls, doesn't fall to the ground and die, it remains alone. So the problem is it remains alone. That's the problem.

It remains alone is the, I think when you mentioned earlier, you were talking about the conquering of death, which I thought about Phil. Yeah. You know, our late, my late uncle, late grandfather, late dad, he was obsessed. with the conquering of death, the resurrection of the dead. He built his whole life on it. But I think that's more than just an eternal existence. It's a quality of existence, which is in presence. It's in the presence of God.

Yeah, crucifixion, resurrection, that's the gospel. That's as I was talking about at breakfast. We always forget the ascension. There's no salvation without the ascension as well. It really is very important. It's a big deal. Kind of a big deal. But yeah, I mean, that critical core text is crucifixion, resurrection.

So I was thinking about this, the imagery and how you go back to Moses in those 40 years in the, you know, you only get like nine verses when he's like in his own wilderness before, you know, when he's like he's kind of run out and he winds up in the Midian Hilton, I call it. And what do you think that was God like? Do you think he was strong and then became weak in terms of the not-be-neller speaker, or was he always this way? Because you made a really good point about how he was kind of indecisive, even in that moment when he came upon the two guys' fight. He's looking around. Yeah, it was a different way.

Yeah, that was the part where Moses says he sees two of two guys fighting, and then he interjects himself into that. But he didn't look around. He was kind of like unsure. With the Egyptian, you're talking about. Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there's two ways of reading it, right? He's either looking around to see if there are any witnesses so he can do something about it.

Right. I don't know that that's Moses. I also don't want to say it's not because 32 through 34, I think he's pretty strong. Or he's looking around to see if anyone else will do it. And that seems to me to be a little more consistent with where we see Moses in the story. There's a great midrash. when Moses dies, omidroche are these Jewish stories that they tell to flesh out what's going on in the text to give us some sort of theological import. So when Moses dies, he goes and he meets God.

And God praises him. He says, you were the greatest prophet that I've ever had. There's not going to be a greater prophet in all of Israel than you. And then God says to him, but you know you really shouldn't have killed that Egyptian. But you get these things throughout. It's like, it's what we were talking about before. We just want that God of judgment versus a God of mercy. And it's just not that easy.

At the destruction of the Egyptians, there's another midrash where all the angels are rejoicing. The destruction here. And God turns to them and he says, how dare you celebrate the destruction of my creation? Well, are the Egyptians not God's creation? Has he not created all nations? And by the way, the Hebrew Bible's actually having a serious conversation about this, right? Ezra and Nehemiah are very different than Ruth and Jonah. Yeah.

Just since we're talking about the death of Moses, that's one of my favorite parts of the whole story, is that when he die, he died with that moist vigor. Moses had that testosterone all the way to the end I'm going to say a scripture What did you call it? High tea. High tea. Yeah, we've been talking about the high tea of these guys.

These Old Testament. Stuts, man, they were high tea all the way to the end. It's right in there. I have no midrash on high tea. You said you're wondering, what does high tea fit into all this? You can go sign up to take the classes with us for free. at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com, and maybe we tie that up. I don't know, but it's Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. We just finished our Exodus study. And we want you to take these courses with us because this,

I mean, it makes it a lot more sticky. And you do such a great job of kind of giving like an overview. You don't, it's not, you know, you don't get too, like, I mean, I think anybody from any different tradition can come in. I think so. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But yeah, I love this Exodus story, though. I agree with you. It is the, it is the, It is the key to understanding the New Testament. I mean, you see it repeated over. I mean, even in Paul's writings of how often is Paul referenced back to the exodus story.

Jesus, clearly there's significance of his own baptism in the Jordan River, you know, and thinking about when they crossed over the Jordan River and the sins of Israel being washed away or the Red Sea moment. It's like a repetition over and over and over again in Scripture. And I think that God, he operates in that kind of story. story, and we're being invited into that story of this new Exodus or fulfilled Exodus, as you said. But one of the most incredible parts of probably all of Exodus for me is that moment at the Burning Bush, where you really do see a God whose intention is to be present with

his people. And you see like that, even when he gives his name, how much of his, I mean, you mentioned the name, one translation was. Yeah, Iyer, Asher, Iyer, which is usually I. am that I am, our altar even does, I will be who I will be. My favorite translator of the Hebrew Bible is a man, his name's Everett Fox. His is a little too wild for my students, so I don't quite do it, but his is that I will be there, howsoever I will be there. That makes perfect sense because he keeps saying, I'm the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Yeah, it's not just,

it's not just... It's your presence. And you know, it's interesting too. Later on, he said, when he talks to Moses, I always found this to be fascinating. He says, you know, I reveal myself to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but I did not tell them my name. Why is that? I don't get that. Well, I have a theory on it. I mean, I think that it's in this moment that the way that God's story's unfolding is he's revealing that his true essence is in his name. Y'allay, he's present. He's a God that wants to be present. So the story's unfolding, and it hasn't quite got there yet. Even with Jacob's ladder is a temple motif. And so when you start to understand what is the

point of a temple, it's the place where heaven and earth meet. It's where God meets with man that got distorted in the fall. But Eden should be thought of as a temple. And so the whole story is moving to how is God going to make us home in people. So this is what's happening in that moment where so when God reveals his name for the very first time, and you can go through the rest of scripture and how much of it is dependent. His name is like the thing, right? So then you move into the, uh,

to the New Testament. With the book of John, how many times is Jesus used the same? I am. I am. So I went on the rabbit hole. Uh-oh. Jay's alert.

Rabbit hole while back on these, uh, Targums. I started reading some of the Targamous and, um, it would, which these guys would take the, the Hebrew scriptures and they would put them in, um,

in Aramaic so that they could understand it. They would teach it to a Greco-Roy. Roman audience so that people could receive it in their own kind of native tongue. And so they had recognized that there was a dilemma in the Old Testament when it talked about Yahweh. And they called it to two Yahwehs theory. And they're like, it seems like there's two different. Two powers.

Yeah. From Daniel 713. Yes. The ancient of days. And another one who was just like him. Yeah, that's all there. And it exists. But they recognize this dilemma, which is interesting because when they translated,

they would have Yahweh, and then they would have another phrase called the word of Yahweh, which would be the Logos of Yahweh. So when you get to John 1, then you're like, in the beginning was the Logos. Well, even, I mean, if Logos is language, rationality,

but if it's also an ordering principle, and it clearly is, okay, well, what is an ordering, what's predicated upon an ordering principle, justice? So then that should really interest us If we're still talking about the difference between the God of mercy and that God of justice, in some ways, guess what you would say about Christ?

In fact, he is the God of justice, meaning that ordering principle. Well, I know we're out of time here, but I'll end with this. This is one of the things I do appreciate about your tradition is understanding and really kind of trying to read the Bible through this lens of God's presence. because it seems to be that's the centerpiece of the story. So whatever your view of the atonement is, atonement is an entry point into presence. It's not the end. It's the entry point into the very presence of Christ.

Well, that's what a... I mean, this is literally, I think it's 1527. The first time the word atonement is used in the English languages in the Tyndale Bible. But they're borrowing from a 14th century word, and there it was just oned. N-Y-E-D or O-N-E-D or O-N-I-D, they didn't have standardized spelling. But it just meant Wond. Well, we are out of time.

So we, that was a great discussion. Yeah, they're wrapping this up here. We're getting the, they're right to pull out the cane for us all. I think we like having Justin on the podcast. Thanks for making the track. It's so good. And thanks for teaching because we're learning a lot. Well, thanks for working to get me here.

So this has been, this has been a joint. Go sign up for the next course we're going to take, which is going to be the story of David course. And so you can go to Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. Sign up is for free. And we'll be in that in the very next podcast. All right. See you next time.

That's great. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to Unashamed for Hillsdale.com and sign up. It's no calls to you. That's Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. And don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.