Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1215 | Jase Debates If Pink Floyd Can Be Worship Music & the Bible’s Strangest Rule

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

Jase, Al, and Zach launch a heated debate over what can technically be considered worship music, with Phil still remembered as the king of spinning secular songs into spiritual messages. The guys dig into the truth behind Jesus’ final words on the cross, and Jase pulls out the weirdest rule in the entire Bible off the top of his head. Plus, a trucker’s unexpected testimony has the guys wondering if a country music collab might be on the horizon. In this episode: John 19, verses 1–37; Genesis 22, verses 1–14; Isaiah 53, verse 12; Leviticus 16, verses 15–22; Psalm 22, verse 18; Psalm 34, verse 20; Exodus 12, verse 46; Numbers 9, verse 12; Deuteronomy 21, verse 22; Deuteronomy 20, verses 19–20; Luke 23, verses 32–43; Hebrews 13, verses 11–15; Ephesians 2, verses 21–22 Chapters: 00:00-06:24 Jase chooses Al’s new “walk up song” 06:25-14:30 Why Phil hated country music 14:31-19:00 Nashville is rediscovering Jesus 19:01-26:10 Pilate tries & fails to straddle the fence on Jesus 26:11-34:31 The four worst major aspects of crucifixion 34:32-41:33 Jesus last words before death  41:34-50:26 The scapegoat & sacrificial lamb in one 50:27-58:20 The thief on the cross makes his choice — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashame. Jay says a frog in his throat. I had the same problem in the last podcast. You got to get some kind of mint in there, Zach, to sue the... You know, what happened is we've had our first cold weather. And so when that happens, it just kind of triggers... because you got that high pressure that rose in. Last time Zach was in a last week or earlier this week, Zach was in a parka in his studio. Remember that, Jay?

Oh, that was top 10 embarrassing things I've ever seen. You're indoors wearing a foot thick jacket like zipped up. And then he got so excited about the point he was making. I thought his head was going to blow off. That's right. Because it looked like he was all bound up and his head was just glowing. I told Missy that. I was like, well, it was like watching a tea kettle and waiting for that.

You know that. But it was a great, great song. Oh, it was one of the top ten rants of all time on the podcast. It was a classic. Done in an embarrassing wardrobe. To be fair, to be fair, it was 19 degrees outside. Yeah, and snowing. Yeah.

But you were inside. Yeah, we're talking about you. You're inside, Zach. That's on you. It's called Central Air. Build a fire. Heat. Don't wear a big parka.

Well, it was a down jacket. It wasn't a parka. I mean, you say tomato. I say tomato, you know. Well, there's different ways to blow smoke on this podcast, Zach, but you were literally blowing smoke, I guess. there in North Carolina. So Jay's, I hadn't forgotten about a month ago, you spoke at our local Celebrate Recovery. And on a Friday night, and they always say their line is, it's the place to

be on a Friday night, celebrate recovery. And we have a huge one. I mean, we have a lot of people there. They're very enthusiastic. These are people that are coming out of a lot of worldly situation, some of them out of prison, recovery houses, a lot of different things. going on there. And so I'm up next Friday. And so I'm excited about my opportunity. But I was inspired by what you talked about because we talked about the podcast. So I kind of wanted to do a part two about the lighting and the fire because that was your fire was your theme.

Yeah, there was a fire. Well, I played the viral video from Sister Brown or Sweet Brown. Yeah. And that that was a lead balloon because they, I don't know. It didn't trigger the response because, you know, when she's like, there was a fire. I was on the way to get some pop. I really, it's just funny to listen to. But that didn't work.

But when I played my walk-up song, which was I won't back down, Tom Petty, that hit. So you need to find a rock and roll song. Now, chaos ensued because they all broke out into song. They knew it by far. It was a Tom Petty. Where were you at? I was at Celebrity Recovery. They do it at...

Wai's Railroad. But in Monroe. Yeah, in Monroe. Okay. It was so loud. Like they had sang some worship songs. This was three times the volume. And when I said, okay, I'm going to make the point, they continued singing after I

stopped the song. They just went on. It was hard to even get them back. But I thought, you know, you're talking about engaged. Sounds like a Florida game. Sounds awesome. That's what we do. Every fourth quarter at the University of Florida in the swamp,

that's how you start right there. Tom Petty, I won't back down the whole stands. Yeah, but I was making a spiritual application. You're talking about football. That's spiritual. Not really, because he's talking about University of Florida. It's not really football.

But it's whatever they're doing. It's whatever they're doing. We did have Tim Tebow as our quarterback and Danny Werfel, two of us godly men. Is that where you go for 30 years now? Well, I'm just saying, you don't have anybody like that. You've got to go back to Steve Spurrier. You're living in the past, man.

But Al needs a walk-up song, too, though. Yeah, I want to do a walk-up song. Well, just a couple have just popped into my head. One of them probably won't work, the Pink Floyd song. There's someone in my head, but it's not me. And then you can go to the Holy Spirit, but I don't really know what that song is about off the top of my head So it could be deities.

That may trigger the wrong response to the art. Here's a go. Here's the one you do. There's, who's saying that song? Collective soul, I believe, saying shine. Whoa, heaven let your light shine down. There you go. Look, and you could go, heaven came down.

You could start off with, I mean, do the song. You'd have to, because it has a little guitar riff this. good. That opens it up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Down. And then he goes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. But that's a good one because they actually, I had listened to that song early on, and I knew it was had spiritual connotations, but they didn't know how profound it was because in my first, 10, 15 years of Christian walk, I was all about one day I'm going to heaven. And I didn't realize that the Bible teaches more about heaven coming down in various forms, to the garden, to the tabernacle, Jesus himself, the Holy Spirit, the church coming down in Revelation 21 and 22. So I think that would be a noble point to get into.

Yeah, I think it would be really good. Yeah, I remember that song we sang, Heaven came down and glory filled my soul? Yeah. That's a good one. Oh, that's a good one. I'm thinking about somebody. Well, so what's interesting about that song is that, I looked it up, 1993.

I remember when it came out, and it was a mainstream song, even though it's a Christian song. I believe it was an actual Christian band that was also, they somehow were able to get into the, into the cultural zeitgeist of the time and come in through the alternative rock but I believe Collective Soul was a Christian band, I'm gonna look it up.

And there's been a few other ones like that. Creed was like that, Zach. You know, they were a Christian band, but they crossed over some of their stuff. They are now. Listen to the lyrics. Give me a word, give me a sign, show me where to look,

tell me what will I find? Lay me on the ground and fly me in the sky, Show me where to look. Tell me what I'll find. Love is in the water. Love is in the air. Show me where to look. Tell me, will love be there?

Will love be there? Yeah. So, pretty good. Yeah, that's basically it. Yeah, they say they're not a Christian band, but kind of like you two. You two was kind of like, you know, their songs got a lot of theological significance to them as well. You know, which is funny, you mentioned that because there was a, we went to South Africa years ago, maybe 20 years ago. I went there. And we were traveling with an Acapella group called Watershed Worship at the time, which were very popular in our background. And they had this song, this U-2 song that they opened up. I still haven't found what I'm looking for, you know, that song. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And which is another good one, by the way. But he would. start off with that whole first part of that song.

And then he had like one of their songs that like comes in halfway through that song. But when he would start that, like we were like big audiences of people. And they didn't really know, you know, any of the worship stuff. But when he would start that YouTube song, you talk about seeing those Africans in South Africa. I mean, and they would drown out like the guys singing. They were singing so loud. and then what was that open the eyes of my heart Lord open the eyes of my heart yeah that that was their

response on to I still haven't found what I'm looking for which I thought was a pretty hey I remember hearing that song for the first time and I thought well Jesus is what you're looking for exactly or the one I can't get no satisfaction I mean well yeah that's kind of that that'll preach too you're looking at all the wrong places looking for love in all the wrong places. Well, I remember where I made these kind of transitions is because our dad, Al, he listened to rock and roll music. And then I saw his faith as it matured and he would try to make these practical applications from these songs. A song would play while we were sitting there building duck off. He'd say, you know, that old boy, he needs to find Jesus, you know.

I mean, even the Pink Floyd, you know, analogy I use, he made that point. He's like, you know, we got the Spirit of God in our head. It's not us. There's a famous little clip that was going around when Phil passed over, and it's Phil probably about 35 years old. And he's got, he's talking about the, you know, I said, hey, yeah, but I mean, we were just, hey, we were just taking it to the limit one more time. I said, that's another one. say, yeah, that was another one. He made that.

I mentioned that, I mentioned that song at his funeral. You know, Jace, what's funny is someone, apparently someone at Fox News.com is listening to our podcast because I was scrolling on the website for something looking for a story. And I see a picture. That's dangerous, yeah, I know. But I see a picture of dad on there. And it says, Duck Dynasty Patriarch banned country. music for his sons.

And I was like, what? What is this? I mean, because, you know, Dad hadn't exactly been the headlines here late. So I click on the, it was click, mate. It got me. I clicked on it. And they quoted a discussion we had on the podcast. They were quoting mostly you and I.

When we were talking about dad listening to Rock and Roll, we were growing up. When we had Larry Fleet on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he didn't know. I mean, you're telling a country music sing. that we, I said, come on.

I was being transparent. My dad. We were, we were telling the truth. He would just, I mean, he wouldn't give you a spanking because of it, but he would call you an idiot. It's like, no. He's frowned upon it. Yeah, he just didn't.

But he liked Southern Rock, so he would do Leonard Skinner. Well, that's true, but it's kind of morphed. You weren't there. You weren't there. If you put on a song, because he used to do this little, little jingle, every, time. He said, you know, these country music artists, they come out there, look, they all have the same note. Remember how when he would get on that? Here we go. Done. Down, nah, now, now, now, now. The steel guitar. Yeah, and he said, boy, it makes me want

to gag. He just did not like that old-timey country music, and he forbid it. And then Jason and I were talking about on that podcast, remember we were talking about sort of the outlaw country came along is what they call it now but it was you know just kind of stuff about our childhood and we were kind of drawn to it i mean it was like an anthem and so it was my way to rebel against dad was to start listening to country music i was gonna bring that up i went through a country music phase and my dad was not happy and it was because he's like i don't know that old boy he just lost it and i'm like he's come back and he's like your brother all of a sudden he's not his son he's my brother. Detachment.

He was detaching himself. But look, apparently someone is listening because that whole piece was on that article, Zach. Well, what's funny, I'd tell you what's funny, Larry sent me a text last week. Here's what's weird. I was on the phone.

I was on a Zoom call with a trucking company that wants to do a podcast about trucking. And they said, we want to reach people in the trucking community for the gospel. I was like, you know, it's funny. I think we have a lot truckers that listen to our podcast. Well, Larry, as soon as that call ends, Larry, I get a text from Larry Fleet about one

of the people who listens to our podcast, who is a trucker in Arkansas. He was driving in Arkansas, and he didn't know who Larry was, but he listens to our podcast. And so he was sending this to Larry through, like, his agent or whatever. He's trying to get a hold of him and said, he's one of those emails. I don't know if you ever see this, but I'm going to tell you my story. And he said, I was in and out of drugs and alcohol, addiction. I mean, life was, he's 47 years old my age, five kids, same is me.

And he said, but I've listened to the Unashamed podcast. He said, I got sober. I think he said in June of this year, he said I completely, for the first time ever, fully turn my life over to Jesus. And he's just sharing his testimony with Larry. And he said, he said something like, I heard you talking, heard your story. He said, and then I started listening. to your songs, primarily that one of where I find God.

And he said, I had to pull over. What did he say? He said something, I just remember, Mal Barker. You sent it to me. You send it to us, yeah. Pull it up. Pull it up. Let me see.

Oh, yeah, here. Yeah, I'll just read you this last part. Right here. He said, anyways, just pleased to tell him, speaking about Larry, thank you. I don't have social media or do all that as a 47. year old man, I should have my life together. But I had to realize I have nothing in all caps together and I've had to start over at the bottom. So I just want Larry to know as I sit here at mile marker 36 on I 30 in Arkansas as I'm a truck driver, I had to pull over and cry my eyes out. I've never

heard of Larry until the night. But as I listened to Unashamed podcast, I was so taken by his story and his willingness to talk about Jesus in the circle that he's in. Then I listened to his song So thank you so much for being a light to the people. Don't ever think what you're doing is not important. I thought, man, that was such an encouraging message that this guy sent. I called Larry after I read it. I said, Larry, you realize that's a country music song right there. Mile marker 36 on I-30.

I mean, doesn't that sound like a country music? I said, we've got to write a song. We do need to do a collab between Unashamed and Larry Fleet. We need to truckers don't cry, or truckers do cry. when it comes to Jesus. Well, that was one of the things that impressed me about Larry was this kind of a new genre that he's helping create. There's other artists, too, from both sides of the, from the pop side and from the countryside,

this idea about these spiritual themes, because I think the same thing with some of these jelly roll songs. I mean, they're very godly and they're, you know, very honoring of our lifestyle and who we are. Yeah. And I just think it's a new thing that it's a great. trend. I mean, especially kind of where our country is right now and a lot of people kind of coming awake to the idea of faith and truth. I just think it's inspiring to see artists that are tapping into that and not afraid to sing about God and, you know, other things. I think it's a good thing. I agree. Well, that transformation ultimately comes from God. He's a transformer.

And we spent the last two podcasts talking about, I mean, under the umbrella of John 19 and what Jesus is accomplishing here, this being under law, and it not having the power over sin. And here's Jesus, who's fixed to transform that through his death on a cross and resurrection, and then give you His Holy Spirit, which is the power of God to transform your life. I mean, that's the big battle of, am I under law, or do I have God? living in me from a relational standpoint. It's giving you the power to do this. And I think that's what's being missed. No, I think you're right. So today, we are going to advance our story. And to do that, I'll give you just four takeaways that I had. I'm sure the guys have more,

but I'll just give you these four from chapter 18 through 1916. So we've been in before pilot, Jesus. And so Pilate finds Jesus guilty of no crime. He did it multiple occasions. But he does fear the truth of who Jesus is. This idea about, remember it said when they said he was claimed to be the son of God, who Jace with that, you read about breaking their law. That scared Pilate. He said, he was fearful because he thought, uh-oh. Because you know what? I think for a little bit of an instant, Pilate thought, what if he is the son of God? Well, because his wife had been having bad dreams saying you need to walk away. And so they're like, what is the sign? My wife's having bad dreams. And it scared him. And so that was number one. Number two, pilot mockingly,

but also truthfully, declares who Jesus really is. One is he said, here is the man. And we've talked a lot about that the last few podcasts. And we talk about the son of man. And he says it out loud. But he also calls him the king of the Jews. And of course, the Jews didn't like it, but it was really true. He is the king of the Jews and the world, by the way. Another third thing is that Pilate, and this is to me one of those subtle points, but Pilate is seeking neutrality, but he, but he settles on expediency. In other words, he doesn't really want to weigh in here because it doesn't advance him and he knows something is off about it, but he settles for what gets him through the moment. And if that doesn't describe political leadership around the world, in most

cases, I don't know what does. They want neutrality, but they settle on expediency. Let's just get it through it. Truth doesn't really factor in. It's just a question of how do we make this work. And that's why he went to this, what we call halfway death of having Jesus scourged by the Romans, which is a brutal, terrible, awful thing. We didn't get into the details of it, but it's awful. Oh, it's like leather straps with like bone on the end of them, ripping flesh. I mean, that's why they call it halfway death. Yeah, it literally puts your body into such a shock. And if you want to see it and experience it, you can watch the Passion of the Christ,

because Mel Gibson does an amazing job of visualizing how bad and brutal this was. But it's awful. And then the fourth thing I would say is that John makes a point, and Jay's did a whole podcast, rabbit home this, that the sequencing of these festivals and the Passover lambs and the time of the day, all that matters because everything is kind of coming to fruition to this moment that we're reaching in 1916. So that was kind of my takeaway. Yeah, that last point you made is really what we've been doing on trying to define the fulfillment. when Jesus said, I didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

Or the passage in Luke that says, everything that is written about me and the law and the prophets must be fulfilled. I think that's in Luke 24. And, of course, then he starts talking about the Spirit, which, so, you know, the couple things I would add to that is, because you're like, well, why did he go along with this? Well, that little statement they made about in verse, let me get my glasses on, verse 12, when he says, from then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free. Yeah. But the Jews kept shouting.

And why he caved in was what they were shouting when they said, you're no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar, which is another accusation against Jesus, you know, making him the king of the Jews. And I think it gets... The irony is they hated Caesar. So they're like, they're the real rebels, but all of a sudden now they're like loyal citizens. They're like...

Yeah, it was so hypocrite. It was so hypocrit. Well, they're on the wrong side of the law. They're on their own law. They're on the wrong side of power because now, in a weird turn of events, they're embracing Caesar as their lord. and I think it makes you realize too how this could even happen because they're so far away from pilots so far away from the mothership they're basically just colonizing under their power all these communities and so it's not like you see a literal battle of Jesus against the Roman power this is like way away from the mothership where they're using no that's why they would put up statues and different signs of power just to keep control over these places that places that they're inhabiting.

And it's like when these archaeologists have looked, well, you didn't find any, any statues like in Rome itself. It was all in these areas where they were taken over the world. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because it shows you how power wants to, intimidate earthly power by using these images of their own power. And so when you look at what Jesus is representing, which is the image of God, the true power, and he's showing that in sacrifice and love, even loving the people who are putting him on the cross in one of the last things that he said. And I think just that difference in what you're doing, what you're doing,

about the power you have, shows you the difference in heaven, power, and earthly power. And even, Jay's, even the symbol of crucifixion itself was part of the reason why, you know, last podcast I read Galatians 4-4 when the time set had fully come. I mean, they chose, they, meaning God, chose to come here at a time when Roman execution of crucifixion was sort of at its peak of what it was designed to do. It started, by the way, way back with the Persians. It was more of an impaling situation, but it was the same thing about hanging on a cross. And then it passed along to the Greeks and on to the Romans, but the Romans were the ones who perfected it.

And somebody that I am reading had these four things, the four elements of Roman crucifixion, the four elements of Roman crucifixions, unrelenting agony, protracted death. In other words, you wanted this to last for days. public spectacle. That's why they're hanging. Public embarrassment. They're wanting to embarrass. And that was the fourth thing was utter humiliation.

I mean, that was the four aspects of it. It's like a form of terrorism. Well, you remember the story, I don't know it off the top of Ebb, but of Spartacus. I mean, there's probably been 100 movies about it. None of them you can watch. But they crucified like 6,000 rebels and like strategically. placed the crucifixion down the road of 6,000 people. So when you walk down the highway, just think walking down a road where you see 6,000 people

hung up on the cross. Dying, agonized, slow death. Well, what is the message they're sending you? Don't mess with Rome. You want to mess with us, buddy? So that was the whole idea of this. And we've made the point that God, again, chose this. a lot of it's because of this tree imagery because we go back to the garden and the idea of the tree.

And then also in Deuterreony 21, there's this idea about being cursed, you know, hanging on a tree. And so it's this concept that's been along all the time. And so Jesus becomes that curse. So all that leads into what happens. So I want to read this section, because I'm sure we'll be here for a minute, about the actual crucifixion itself. Because that's the next phase of what's happening in our narrative. So let me read it. And I'm reading from the NIV.

So Pilate hands him over to be crucified, verse 16. So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. So now it's going to be enacted out. Carrying his own cross, which was common, that the criminal, and I put that in quotes in Jesus case, had to carry part of their own cross. He went out to the place of the skull, which in Aramaic is called Galgatha or Galgotho. Here they crucified him and with him two others, one on each side and Jesus in the middle. Now, a couple of the other Gospels go into a little more detail, which we'll

talk about those two criminals with Jesus. Verse 19, Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read Jesus of Nazareth, the king of the Jews. And again, this was a common thing about usually they would put up whatever their crime was above them so that you would know, you know, why this person was hanging. I'm sure that 6,000 Jace was talking about probably had insurrection or whatever. This one just simply said Jesus of Nazareth, the king of the Jews. Many of the Jews read this sign for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin, and Greek.

So he didn't want them to miss it. the chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, do not write the king of the Jews, but that this man claimed to be, but that this man claimed to be the king of the Jews. So they're wanting to parse over what he said. Pilate answered, What I have written, I have written.

So in other words, he's the man. When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the under garment remaining. The garment was seamless woven in one place from top to bottom. Let's not tear it, they said to one another.

Let's decide by a lot who will get it. And then John's going to give us a little parenthetical here. This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled, which said they divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing. That's out of Zacharii 1210. So this is what the soldiers, no, I'm sorry, that's out of Psalm 22. 18. So this is what the soldiers did. Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary, the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there and the disciples

whom he loved standing nearby, which the assumption is most scholars that that was John himself, he said to his mother, dear woman, here is your son. And to the disciple, here is your mother. From that time on, the disciple took her into his home. So this is the setting around the cross. And now verse 28, later, knowing all that was completed, now completed. And so that the scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, I am thirsty. A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus's lips.

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, it is finished. With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. Now was the day of preparation, and the next day it was to be a special Sabbath because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath. That's back to that Deuteronomy 23. They asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the body's taken down. The soldiers, therefore, came and broke the legs of the legs of the body. the first man who had been crucified with Jesus and then those of the other.

But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus aside with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. Again, I'm assuming that's John talking about himself. He knows that he tells the truth and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happen so that the scripture would be fulfilled. Not one of his bones was broken. That's Exodus 12, Numbers 9, Psalm 34.

There's like three different ones. And as another scripture says, they will look on the one that they have pierced. So that's the death of Jesus on the cross. So I'll just let you guys go with where you want to go from there. There's a lot to unpack here. Yeah, the first thing is I think to look at is that how much. of the Old Testament it should come to mind as you read this.

You mentioned several of those messianic prophecies about not one of its bones will be broken. But the passage that you read begins with Jesus carrying us on cross. And the first thing that popped in my mind was Genesis 22, because this is a typology of Genesis 22, where you had Isaac,

the son, right? Oh, yeah. Jesus is the son of God. Isaac is the son of Abraham. Isaac is going up to be sacrificed. Jesus is going up the hill of Gargotha to be sacrificed. Isaac is carrying his own wood, the instrument of his death, right? Because he's going to be offered up on the wood sacrifice.

Jesus is carrying the wooden cross. Abraham says, God will provide the lamb. Jesus is the lamb. So you're seeing in this moment all of this Old Testament prophecy and imagery and typology being, I don't want to say replicated, because this is not a replication, this is actually the fulfillment of it. This is like everything that that was pointing to, all of that Old Testament imagery, all of those stories that were retold, all of the history, the heritage, the identity of Israel, it was all pointing right here to Jesus actually fulfilling it. So right here,

Jesus is fulfilling Isaiah 22. I'm sorry, Genesis 22. No, that's good. And yeah, you're right. I mean, there's all over the place. There's a lot of, and a lot of the reasons why Jesus did some of the things he did and said some of the things he said was to fulfill some of those roles that had been around the whole time. One of the things I thought was interesting is this line, it is finished. When you look it up in the original language, it's just one word. It just means paid.

And which was interesting that that was the word he chose at the end was just paid, paid. You know, it is finished meaning it's done. Everything, that's why this moment is so incredibly rich in the sense of the bigness of it. Because he basically is saying, I just paid for the sin of everyone that's ever lived. I mean, it happened literally. Well, yeah, because what you have is they crucified him and with two others, one on either side and Jesus between them. So again, think about the topology of the Old Testament. In Leviticus, if you remember on the Day of Atonement, they would take two goats that were used, one slain and the other would be sent into the wilderness that would be bearing the census.

You ever heard the term scapegoat? He's a scapegoat, meaning that we're just blame it on him. Yeah, well, if you're, if not my family, I'd be like, you always, when I was growing up, I was always a scapego. And what I meant by that is, I'm always the one you guys are blaming for everything. Well, what Jesus is doing here, he's actually, he's actually becoming the scapegoat. He's actually burying the sins of humanity in this. He's actually, and that would happen on that day of atonement.

And so, when you're really, you're really, you. like a pastor like Isaiah 53, that he was numbered with the transgressors, the transgressors. So Jesus now is taking on the sin of humanity. He is now the true atoning figure. He's hanging between two sinners, but I mean, he's the one that is taken on both the role of the sacrificial goat and he's taking on the role of the scapegoat, bearing the sins of the people. So it's interesting what's happening here

is Jesus is actually taking on both sides of the Leviticus 16 atonement mechanism. Yeah, I was going to read that, Zach. I think that's really good. When you go back to Leviticus 16, you see that part of this ritual was to make the most holy place.

clean for God's presence to dwell, because people usually who haven't read Leviticus, like in detail, they think, well, all these animal sacrifices were just about atoning for sin. But then, you know, when you get to Hebrews, it says statements like, well, it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to atone for sin. So when you kind of look at the details, you see that it was just a reminder and part of that process was making the place holy so they literally wouldn't die at the presence of God.

Did I sum that up accurately, Zach, before I read it? Yeah, yeah, I think so. I'd like to just read a little bit of it and give you the picture, because I'm glad you brought this up. In verse 15, Leviticus 16, it says, He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering of the people and take its blood behind the curtain

and do with it as he did with the bull's blood, he shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. In this way, now here's the key point. He will make atonement for the most holy place, which is where God and the priests are going to meet because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting.

He kind of says the same thing, go into the holy place in verse 17. And then I'm looking for this goat. Where do we get into the two goats? Yeah, okay, verse 18. Then he shall come out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it, so the altar itself. He shall take some of the bloods of the bull

and some of the goat's blood. And so then when you get to verse 20, it says when Aaron has finished making atonement for the most holy place, the tent of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. He's to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites, all their sins, and put them on the goat's head.

He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place, and the man shall release it in the wilderness. And some of the instances where that is depicted, they use the Hebrew word Azazel, and you can go do a rabbit hole. I'm not going to do it today.

But it's associated with like the idea of things that are anti-God, especially in the kind of demonic world or satanic world, the spiritual forces of evil world. So it's like the picture you're getting is God is wanting them to get that picture where you're taking the sins and getting it out because it doesn't belong here in the presence of God into the wilderness. That's a key point you made about the place being consecrated, about the place being cleansed, about the, it is about a place.

And that's the, I think this is, okay, this is like, to me, where the whole thing, like it hinges on this. Well, simplify it so everyone can understand, what you're fixed to say because I'm on the edge of my seat. Yeah, well, here's what I'm thinking. If your theology or your eschatology leads you to de-emphasize the place that there is a place,

then if it's always like the, ooh, you're like ghosty, everything's ghosty. If that's how, that's not what this is. This clearly is about a place. And so you mentioned Hebrews, I wanted to read the Hebrews 13 passage it says the high priest. That's where I was fixed to read.

Yeah. You were going to Hebrews 13? I'm at Hebrews 13 because that was the practical illustration I was going to make for us in the transition of that. But you go ahead and read it. But I wanted to read at least verse 11 through 15. That's where I was going to. The high priest carries the blood of animals into the most holy place, which Jay's just

read about Leviticus, as a sin offering. but the bodies are burned outside the camp. And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. So there's the escape goat. There was the live goat that went into the wilderness outside the city and died. He took that emblem of what they were doing and embodied the entire process.

Yeah. He was both sides. He was both goats. Then he says, let us then go to him outside the camp bearing the disgrace he bore. For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come. That's the one in Revelation 22. Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise, the fruit of lips that openly prophesy his name. and do not forget to do good and share with others for with such sacrifices God is please. So Jesus is both on the scapegoat and the sacrificial goat side of this.

Well, here's where this matters about the place. So why does it matter? Because again, going back to what we've already said, Jesus is about to hit the place of his body is about to die. And the place of his body is going to be resurrected. And the place of Jesus' body is going to be the cornerstone of a new holy place. So in this particular instance, they're talking about in Leviticus, they're talking about the holy place in the temple, the holy of holies where the ark of the covenant resides, where God's

presence resides, and there can be no sin in the ark of the covenant. What happens if my body becomes a temple? Well, now all of a sudden that my body has to be clean. Sin can't be in my body and God dwell there. Well, how is that going to happen? Because sin is in my body. I am a sinner. That's the whole thing.

Jesus becomes the atoning sacrifice and the scapego. He becomes a sacrifice to pay for the sin of the people, to take on the sin of the people, to take on my sin, and then to take that sin out of me and take it into the wilderness. Jesus accomplishes what those two goats signified. Jesus actually accomplishes that and makes my body, the temple of the Holy Spirit, the holy place of God. But not only that, Zat, not only is the two goats,

He's also the Passover lamb, which is the significance of not breaking his legs because a Passover lamb had to be unblemished. It could have broken bones. So even down to the prophecy of that, we see this perfect sacrifice. And you see it play itself out in who Jesus is, both. And he fulfills every role. That's why I believe that Pilate unwittingly by turning loose Barabbas was his attempt of having a scapegoat. I mean, he wanted Barabbas to be the sacrifice, but the people said no. And so Barabbas was let go. And he was full of sin. He was an insurrectionist. He was all these things.

But what he didn't know was Jesus was going to fulfill the role of all of those Old Testament copies that you say. Well, and I want to read the verse to go along with what Zach said. In Ephesians, too, I know we've read this many times. But after what Zach just said, just listen to this. In him, this is 221, the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in Him, in Christ, you are being built together. So you are the building. That is the place, human beings, becoming a dwelling in which God lives by His Holy Spirit. That's what he accomplished. That's why we went to this whole deal about the Spirit. I want to read this as well.

I was too I have time on this podcast because I believe the two criminals in the picture on either side of Jesus are representative of every person, of every person who's ever lived or who lived in this moment or whoever will live. Listen to this conversation in Luke 23 because John doesn't give it. But listen to this. This is the ultimate choice. So Jesus is here. He's the perfect sacrifice. He's also the scapego. and here's the two criminals on either side in verse 39 of Luke 23.

One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him. Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us. So there's one person, the one who says, I want to be, I want to get out of this situation for no other reason other than I just want to get out of the situation. In other words, he doesn't believe. He says, you say you're something. Get us out of this.

get me out of this situation. I don't deserve to be here when, of course, he does. So that's one, that's one choice. But look what the other guy says. The other criminal rebuked him. Don't you fear God since you were under the same sentence? In other words, we're all here crucified. We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve, but this man has done nothing wrong. then he said, Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Look at there. Here's a guy that's hanging in the moment about to be crucified for his own sinful behavior, but he sees something coming.

He sees the horizon. He sees the idea of Jesus' kingdom. Jesus answered him, I tell you the truth. Today you will be with me in paradise. And to me, that's like the great picture of the ultimate choice that everyone has. do I take responsibility for myself and ask Jesus to save me because I can't do it? Or do I still somehow think I can get myself out of it? So I just think everything you see around this crucifixion comes back down to the same

individual choice that people have every single day, even to this very day. I wanted to throw in this obscure point, keeping this tree theme that we've been doing this, going back to the garden. So an obscure verse talking about when the nation of Israel, go to war, brings this up, I will guarantee you've probably never read this verse, but I'm going to read it and try to make a point. In chapter 20 of Deuteronomy in verse 19 and 20, I'm going to read this. It says, when you lay siege to a city for a long time, because you got to remember,

they're having these earthly wars because God is trusting Israel to reveal his character, which they didn't do very well. but they're opposing all these other gods and kind of the spiritual forces of evil, but in an earthly way, which nation against nation. So this is in the context of war. He says, when you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, do not destroy its trees by putting an axe to them because you can eat their fruit. So he's like, don't cut down the fruit trees.

Do not cut them down. Is your war against trees? Are trees people that you should besiege them? The understood answer is no. However, you may cut down the trees that you know are not fruit trees and use them to build siege works until the city at war with you fails. And I thought that was real interesting because in this context, you're like, well, why? Why is he making such a big deal about that? Because that was one of their things they would do in war

is because you want to starve them out or whatever, cut down all their trees. But he's like presenting this fact that I created those trees and they're useful. If they're useful, don't cut them down. Your war is not against the trees, which is a funny statement, which is why I wanted to bring it up. But you fast forward to what Jesus is accomplished,

and you talked about the Passover out and why he did that. this is a liberation from the evil powers, which what our new war is all about when you talk about the spiritual war, you know, Paul goes on to say in Ephesus 6, our battle is not against flesh and blood. It's almost like the war has been escalated from our viewpoint where the nation of Israel fighting other nations, he's like, those free trees I built for the good of humanity. And he's like, you don't have a war with them. Don't cut them down. But now our war is not, it's not about flesh.

We're not, whatever your problem is, it's not with somebody who has flesh. It's the spiritual forces of evil that wage war against us in the heavenly realms. And that's what ultimately Jesus is providing in the new Exodus. That's why he chose to pass over. Yeah, he's bringing, he's bringing the kingdom. And I think that's why, like you read this passage and there's this stuff in here, you just want to skim over like the, for example, when they take Jesus's robe, and they, they didn't tear it.

They didn't tear it up. They were like, well, we'll keep that intact. You think, oh, that's just to fulfill some messianic prophecy. And I think we're misreading it when we see it that way. God didn't take a bunch of random facts and put them in the Old Testament just so Jesus could fulfill them. Those are not random things that are in there. and so there's prophecies aren't random so i think what like that's a picture of actually of the

kingdom that he's bringing because if you go back and you know we're doing a study on um we're about to be doing a study on david and if you look at david uh whenever saw uh he he got rebuked by samuel basically telling the kingdom's going to be taken away from you he grabs samuel's cloak and he tears he tears it away and and the prophecy there was the kingdom's going to be torn away from you. And so then whenever David ends up, you know, he cuts off a piece of Saul's robe, David doesn't actually accept what it actually means,

but what it means is is that the kingdom's going to be torn away from Saul and it's going to be given to David. And so that tearing of the cloak is a picture of the kingdom being like split, torn away. So when Jesus's cloak doesn't get torn here, what's happening in my opinion, I could be wrong on this, but I think Augustine and a few of the early church fathers would agree with me,

is that this is a picture of Christ and his church, a garment that's not divided, a kingdom that's not divided, a kingdom that is whole that can't be shaken nor destroy. He's doing, he's fulfilling, he's becoming like a king that actually will succeed and living out the kingdom here on earth. What's so amazing is, because we're out of time, Zach, is that that thief on the cross recognized that and said today, when you come to your kingdom, I want to be a part of that, which is incredible.

Great point. Which shows you the picture. Before you close it out, I was going to read John 15. I was going the same place that was about the tree and its fruit. Why Jesus said, I'm the vine, you're the fruit, you love one another. And I just said all that to want to say, the tree of life is back because of what Jesus did on the cross and the resurrection. and it's manifested in the presence of God being in human beings.

And you see in the fruit of the spirit. That's really good, Jay. So we'll pick this up next time. If you want to kind of read ahead, because we're going to look at all the things Jesus said on the cross, look at the end of the other gospels and read those accounts. And we'll talk about all the things that Jesus said and did while he was on the cross. So we'll pick that up next time.

I'm Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving. a rating and review on Apple Podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.