Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1223 | John Luke Explores the Principle of “No Kings” & How Parenting Can Shape a Nation’s Future

Episode Date: December 5, 2025

Al, Zach, John Luke, and Christian explore the principle of “no kings” and how cultural envy pushed Israel to demand a leader who looked impressive but lacked character and paid for it dearly. The guys  trace the fallout from choosing Saul, contrast it with David’s repentant heart, and show how wanting to resemble other nations sent Israel down a destructive path.  In this episode: Genesis 11; Genesis 12; Genesis 3, verse 24; Genesis 4; Exodus 14; Exodus 16; Exodus 17; Exodus 25; Deuteronomy 17; Joshua 2; Joshua 7; Judges 2; Judges 21; 1 Samuel 4, verses 19–22; 1 Samuel 5; 1 Samuel 6; 1 Samuel 8; 1 Samuel 9; 1 Samuel 10; Jonah 1; Hebrews 12, verses 28–29; Psalm 51; Romans 1 Today's conversation is about Lesson 1 of The David Story: Shepherd, Father, King taught by Hillsdale Professor Justin Jackson. Take the course with us at no cost to you! Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/⁠ More about The David Story: Encounter the beauty of the Bible. The David Story: Shepherd, Father, King explores the lives of Israel's first two kings—Saul and David—to discover the Bible’s profound lessons about fatherhood, the nature of sin, and the consequences of sin on both a family and a nation. While David suffers great tragedies due to his own transgressions, he models a path to redemption through repentance. Join Professor Justin Jackson in a careful reading of First and Second Samuel to gain a deeper understanding of the meaning and beauty of this story that is not only fundamental to the Christian and Jewish faiths, but also a literary masterpiece. Join us today in this pursuit of a deeper understanding of the Bible in “The David Story.” Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? So welcome back to our Unashamed podcast on Friday with Hillsdale College. We are in the study of David. And we're deep into it. John, look, you said you were going to go deep after that last podcast that we looked from last week. So you ready? I'm ready. He's always ready to go deep. It's interesting, Zach.

So I was in Idaho last week, and it was, they called it a classical Christian school. And I didn't really know what that meant because others are just Christian school. And so they got into some of the things. I mean, when you add the word classical, I was like, what exactly does that make it like more highbrow? Do you listen to the old music like Vivaldi? So I was trying to figure out. And then they said, joyfully classical. And I said, all right, somebody's got to explain to me, what are we doing?

And, but it was really interesting. they have a link to Hills Hillsdale. They have a lot of their graduates go there. And it's kind of the same type thing. They've been around a long time. They're totally non-governmental funded. And their ideas is that we teach the Bible, but also the founders and all the classical works

of Western civilization that were founded on this idea of who God is. And so it was great, but they were just a little small group. But their school has been around for 115 years, 19-19-19. They know what they're doing. They know what they're doing. That's what I got up, I said, 115 years, you got to be doing something right. That's why I love Hills, though. I do love what they're doing because we actually educated our kids, at least the older

to when they were younger, we went through classical education because we homeschooled, so we used a classical curriculum, which it's basically divided up into three parts called the trivium. And it's the first, like, phase of education is like your grammar stage. It's like more like memorization, learning things. backs and, you know, your ABCs, that kind of stuff. Then the second phase of the education is like more logic. And then the final one is rhetoric.

So it kind of mirrors really how we learned. And it's the foundation of really how we learned in the West. So I'm a big fan of it as well. What a big thing they had was like character building, which was really important to. No, I was going to say, is that how you keep your kids from becoming like Hoffney and Phineas if you just have a classical. contemporary curriculum. That's exactly right.

Like a home of school. We call that the anti-hoppin fitness. That's exactly how many times ago. Yeah, well, it really is helpful because, you know, education nowadays, it's all one, it's like one size fits all, but one size doesn't fit all. So it's kind of a problem. And it doesn't allow for students to interact with the material. But these courses are great.

What we're doing here, you can get them for free, by the way, at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. you can sign up. We've already done Genesis. We've done Exodus. And now we're in the story of David with Dr. Jackson, who has become a friend of ours. Al, you guys text on a regular basis, correct? We do. I call him JJ now because we're friends.

Oh, Jay, Jay. I call him Dr. Jay. Dr. Jay is another good one. But he is, and it's funny because when Dr. Arn introduces each of these courses, he talks, he speaks so highly of Dr. Jackson. He is excellent. He's really more of a link. and, you know, more of a literature guy and talks about the prose of these writings.

But the inside he has, I find to be really helpful. And I love that he basically, every time there's like a controversial thing, he'll get into. And sometimes I won't even know it's controversial because I'm not as smart as Zach. So I'm not sure what he's like referring to. But what he does is he'll say, I'll leave that to those guys. Let me just tell you what I think about this. And I like that because that's, in essence, that's what we're. all have to do, right? I mean, none of us are, except for Zach, are experts. I'm not an expert

either. I've enjoyed these and thought they've been very educational. I'm a deep generalist. That's what I am. I'm not an expert. Deep generalist. Deep generalist. I like that. Let me fix my glasses. I got to fix my glasses. He's fixing his glasses. As he says, I'm a deep generalist. I love you, Zach. So we're in just a reset. Last week we started. This is a course about David, and yet we have not gotten to David, and we won't again today. Maybe we'll get right to the edge of David today. But it's his story, but what I love about the course, this particular course, is to understand David, you almost have to understand where the whole concept came from

for kings of Israel. And the fact that that was really never God's plan or design for Israel, was to have a king. I mean, it's very clear. He said that. And even way back in Deuteroni, he was many. mentioning that if you take a king, knowing they would, of course, if Moses is saying, if you take a king, here's what's going to happen. And it won't be good.

Because they just come out of a favorable situation where they've got this tyranny. He's like, you'll put somebody over you, you're going to find tyranny again. So that's the concept. And so we went through this whole period called the judges. And you can go back and read that, which, by the way, the judges is a wow, read because it's a bunch of, it's like the wow, wow west of our history. what was going on in these settings. And it always would have this same cycle.

I wrote down, you would have first this, there would be this period of defeat, like, you know, sin had overrun, they'd gotten too much like the culture, and then something bad happens. Then you would have repentance, and it would be like, oh, God, we've got to do something different. You know, we're in a terrible situation. God would raise up a leader, you know, and that's when you see the judges, it would be saying. And it was a lot of unlikely people, as we've been talking about. I mean, Jephtha and all these people that nobody knew and Gideon, they'd never heard of them before. Even Samson, who we talked about being Nazarite, but he wasn't very spiritual at all.

But he, you know, he wound up being a great man. Then you would have victory. They would win and, like, defeat the foes. And then you would have apathy, and the whole process would start over again. So it was just like, there's 14 judges, and it was the same thing over and over and over again. So we get to Eli, and he's sort of now at the tail end of this. cycle of the judges. And then Samuel,

who, as we said, was not really designed to be that next guy, but he was. What we don't know is, when they were in the historical context, is Samuel is the last guy for this. But it's not because of God's decision. It's because

the people. Because they want a king. And so, and the reason they want a king is because their biggest reason was because everybody else has one. I mean, that was their greatest reason for a king. So I thought about this idea of cultural envy, sometimes how countries are, and we want to be like this country, that country, whatever. So that's the kind of the setting that leads us up to chapter five of First Samuel, where now we're going to see Saul, who

becomes the first king of Israel, sort of his pathway into the kingship. But it was never designed by God. It was warned against, and yet here we are and here we go going into it. All right, Zach, That's a historical overview. Well, once a week in Black Mountain, the town that I live in, and probably Asheville, too, they have a protest downtown. I saw it last time I was there. Yeah, no kings. Yeah, no kings. It's no kings.

It's kind of interesting because I wonder if they read it. They may get it from this text. No king, it's like no king day, but it is interesting. I almost stopped enjoying them, Zat, because, you know, I'm good with no kings as well. since we're not a democracy and a republic. But I really wanted to do it because I would have been the youngest person there and it would maybe feel good about myself. Yeah, it's an older crowd.

But you know, it's interesting, though, that this premise that's happening in, I mean, they, if you think about what was how God pulled Israel out and really the formation of Israel, it began whenever, in Genesis 11, after the Tower of Babel. No, Genesis 12. Genesis 11 was the Tower of Babel, and there were no nations up until this point, and then so they're building this tower,

and they're up, so we're going to reach heaven. We're going to build our way to heaven, and God's like, no, you're not going to do that. And as a consequence for what you're attempting to do, I'm going to actually confuse your languages. I'm going to create nations for the very first time. So he creates all these nations, and then he pulls one of those nations out for himself, which is Israel, Genesis chapter 12,

and that's when he has the conversation with Abram. And the purpose of Israel was to be separated from the other nations and that they would draw the other nations in. They would be a light to draw the nations into worship the one true God. So it's interesting here that the very thing that God created them for is now the thing that they don't want to do. They're like, no, we don't want to be different. We want to be like everybody else.

So give us a king like every other nation. And that's kind of the foundation of the story. No, that's good. And if you think about our last two studies, Zach, to your point, when Egypt, who was the greatest power of their day, look what happened. It was Joseph who rose up through the ranks, a Hebrew, who rose up to ranks to be the second in command,

only second to Pharaoh. And so here's Israel again, infusing itself in, which then leads to the enslavement of these people. But then what happens? Those Egyptians that followed them out. Remember we studied that in Ephesians? Remember the rabble they called them? They followed them out. The ones who were watching and saying, you know what, we might not be like those guys.

Because the bad stuff doesn't seem to be happening to them. So here it is, again, another beacon to the world. And these Egyptians followed them out. Everybody who followed them out got saved. And it was the same when they went into it. Canaan and you saw the whole story there with Rehab. If you follow God, no matter what's your nationality, if you listen to his commands, if you obey him, then good things are going to happen in your life. So that becomes kind of a consistent theme, even taking us this point. And you're right,

there was nothing in the other nations for them. Why would you want to be like them? I mean, that's just, everybody else has that. Or there are multiple gods or their fertility gods or whatever. So to reset the story where we are here, you get chapter five and remember the story was that the two sons of Eli are killed. And during this battle that they lost, the ark of the covenant gets taken into custody by the Philistines. And so they don't really know what they have, but they realized that to the Israelites, this was a big loss because everybody's moaning and grown about it. But they set it up with their God, who was called Dagon. And they've got him up on a shelf, which anytime you have to build a shelf for your God, you probably not think

it big enough. It's just a general rule of the thing about it. But they put the Ark of the covenant in the room with the Dagon, and every day they come back and comical things are happening to their God. First, he falls down, then he fell down and flipped over, everyone was facing the wrong way. Then his arms and his legs were cut off. I mean, it's almost common. I mean, I hate to laugh because I know it was their guy, but it was just almost funny to be. me that, you know, the presence of God was there. It was like, nope, Dagon's not going to win the battle. It's so funny.

So what do y'all think about Dagon or the story? I mean, did you laugh when you were reading about it? Oh, yeah, no, I totally did. I thought the same thing. I thought it was kind of interesting. Thinking about these like Old Testament, like, spirits and like what they believed day gone to be as their God, which I think could have been a real demon

or, you know, on the bad side of spiritual entities that they were worshipping. Which we've talked about before. Which we've talked about before. I mean, that could have been representative of some heavenly realm being that wound up here. And so they could have been really speaking to it and it could have been really speaking back.

And I like, I just imagine when they leave, they go out of, whatever the temple that Deegan was in, that there was some kind of spiritual battle between God or an angel and that spiritual entity and the spiritual entity won every single time. Yeah, and the manifestation of it was some little broken thing on the ground. It was a broken thing on the ground. Exactly. Right.

Which I just, again, you know, it's not just that they were ancient. It's not like you're looking back in time and saying, oh, these people are stupid. Because you see people today are superstitious about all sorts of things. Totally. But if you can't believe in some, something bigger than what you would nail to the floor, then you're really probably not looking big enough. I mean, there's got to be something more to it than that. Yeah. I want to get y'all's

take on kind of this next portion because, you know, the Philistines end up returning the ark and they send them a guilt offering. And then from there, Dr. Jackson talks about the people demanding a king and talking about how even Samuel's sons did not follow in his ways, kind of maybe maybe not as bad as Eli's sons were, but similar to that, I was just, you know, getting y'all's take on that. Why do you feel like, because, I mean, you read all the amazing things Eli did.

You read about all the amazing things Samuel did, and even his sons didn't follow in his ways, and they were wicked and cruel. But then you look at someone like Saul, who's, I mean, Jonathan, Saul's son, is an amazing person. But Saul's not Samuel, you know, and then even have David. And David, you know,

Solomon was great, but you have Absalom and David's other sons were not good people, but David was an amazing, you know, person. So I feel like sometimes, you know, it's just the way God wills it. And, you know, I feel like sometimes there's no rhyme or reason

for why Samuel's kids were terrible and why somehow Jonathan, coming from Saul's lineage, ended up being a great guy. It's a really valid point. And my take on it, always has been, if you are a person of faith, you can't assume that your children are going to follow the Lord because of your faith. Your faith will take them only so far. And at some point,

they've got to make that decision. You're trying to craft that and you're trying to restrain as much as you can. We talked about that at the last podcast. In the case of where you have someone that's not so great, I think the best lesson is you don't have to be bound by your parents' lack of faith. I've had so many people I've talked to the years. I said, well, you know, you guys are always talking about the father, the father, and how much you love the father. And my father's terrible, you know, and then they just rant, you know, about how bad it is. And then I'm always like, well, then you need to know about our Heavenly Father, because I get it. You're hurt. I hear it. I hear it in your voice. But you don't have to be bound to their mistakes and turn out just like

him. You can elevate. You can do something different. So I think either way, the answer is, is in turning to faith. And just because your parents don't have faith or you aren't raising a Christian home in our case, doesn't mean you have to be bound to that. And to continue a generational curse of a lifestyle, anybody can make the change. And, you know, Lisa and I, when we share our story,

Lisa always, when she shares that it just brings me to tears every time because she broke a lot of generational curses in her family. And if she had just continued on a path without God and without Christ, she would have been bound to that. But she didn't. At some point you'd say no, I'm going to be different. Make sure you go to unashamed for Hillsdale.com to sign up, no cost for this course, and you're going to love it.

This is actually my question I was going to ask in the previous podcast, talking about Eli. Before I say this, I want to make a caveat, and just to bounce off what Al said too. At Camp Chioka, I've seen kids, you know, I see 1,500 kids-ish a summer. And I've seen them every year for the last 10 years. 10 years grow up. I saw a girl today who was in college who I've seen as a daykeeper from five years old girl all the way up. And I see them year after year every week and I see their siblings and their whole family. And sometimes you have parents who are incredible. You can tell they're Christian, you can tell they're super involved, and the kid is just terrible. And sometimes you

have parents who are the worst people I've ever met in my life and their kids are just the best person, you know, they're awesome. Sometimes I see brothers who are, you know, two brothers. One is awesome, one's terrible. And it seems like there's no very little rhyme or reason to how, you know, it is with their parents. But that is kind of the edge cases, you know, in some sense. But I want to make that caveat to say sometimes it just people just

are who they are and they're even from the beginning yeah you have Kane and Abel right it's like I don't know if I would be like

well maybe Adam didn't nurture Kane you know like I don't know if you could have that whole discussion but yeah I think it's just

deeply flawed in us as humans right but I want to make a I say that to make this point about Eli

because this was a question that I had and just a different kind of take I wanted to get your thoughts on.

I'm not saying this is a correct reading or not, this is just the thought I had. Whenever it says Eli heard that his sons died and then he heard that the ark fell and when the ark fell he fell over and died.

One commentary I read made the point of this was because Eli was so dedicated to God that when he heard the ark fell he fell. But my thought was it almost kind of of shows that Eli was more concerned with the ministry than with his kids because losing

the ark impacted it more than losing his kids. And on some sense, I'm like, what if a reading was, if had Eli had focused more on his kids and less on the ministry that he was trying to build, maybe his kids would have turned out differently. Because I see that with pastors. that's a good point. Who focus all about their ministry. And it's not because it's like, on some level, it's like, oh, yeah, they're following God. But, you know, on some level,

it's like they're trying to win whatever business they're in. They see ministry as a business. They focus so much on the speaking, the teaching, the church. They ignore their own family. And then their kids turn out crazy. That's very, very common. It's a very fair point. And as being a guy who was in career ministry,

it is very prevalent. You're exactly right, John Lewis. I struggle with it, no doubt about it. And I didn't set out to do it. It's not like I said, okay, I'm going to be so excited about the church and my mission work and everything else that I'm just going to leave Lisa and the kids by him. But that's exactly what I did. And in the midst of it, when you're doing it, you don't notice it.

But that's a great possibility that maybe the reason the kids were so bad, maybe those two sons were so bad is because he just wasn't paying attention to what was happening with him, that he would just not even notice. How would you not know this? And so I think it's a very valid point. And I always used to say that one of my biggest mistakes was that I elevated the bride of Christ, the church, in my case, because that's who I worked for, above my own bride. And at the very least, they should have been equal. At the very least equal. And so that resentment that built up over the first 15 years of mine and Lisa's marriage led to terrible things. And again, that was no excuse for mistakes Lisa made,

but I was helping provide an atmosphere by which the evil one could come in and do what he does best. And that's make things look really tempting and good when they're really evil. And so I think as men of God, the four of us having this conversation, and all of us have wives and children, and in my case, grandchildren, is we don't want to provide an atmosphere that makes it easy for the evil one to deceive anyone we care about. And so we should at least have them on equal par with anybody else we're trying to work with. I mean, that's what I've learned through the year. So that's an excellent. Yeah, we got the benefit now of, you know, back then, the temple was the ministry. And tending to the temple was the work of the vocation of the priests. Now,

we tend, like the temple is us. And so, you know, yeah, do I want to get involved in in the geopolitical sphere and see good emerge there? Yes, but I probably should take care what's happening in the U.S. before I worry about what's happening in China, right? Well, before I worry about what's happening in the federal government, I may want to worry about what's happening

in my state first. And before I worry about what's happening in my state, I probably should think about my own town. And before I worry about my own town, I want to, what's going on my own house? Before I worry about my own house, what's going on my own heart? And so, like, it all starts here in us and then it moves out.

So we have that benefit now of knowing that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. And I want to return back to what we were about that story about this, this idol that was in the same area as the arc. Because I think that's an interesting story of Dagon and how he would, like, like, they would come back in and he's like, arms are cut off. I mean, like, just completely wrecked by Yahweh. I wonder what was happening in that room when nobody was around, but you got to think about what they had in their possession. They had the Ark of the Covenant, which was constructed in the story of Exodus, right? We get the whole story of that.

And if you remember, it had a seat on the top of it. Inside the Ark of the Covenant was, I think it was like three things. The Rod of Aaron. It was a jar of man. and then it was the stone tablets. Yeah. The stone tablets. And so,

I mean, it wasn't anything like, there was no like, like, like, uh, weapons or anything. Like, it's,

it's like these seemingly random parts of, wasn't there little swirly things that came out? And then when they came through you, it melted your whole face off. Wasn't there that? Because I saw that on a movie one time. You saw it.

You're thinking of Indiana Jones. Oh, Indiana Jones. Yeah. That's if they opened it, though. Yeah. Well,

I guess that was, floating around in the sand. But on top of the arc was the mercy seat, and it had, it was guarded by the two cherubim, which is emblematic of what? The tree of life, which is guarded by the cherubim. So you have the cherubim on top of the seat guarding the presence of God. They're guarding the way back to the tree of life. So this goes all the way back to Genesis. You think, well, what are they that? What are they have in their possession. Well, that's where the weapon was. They had the flaming swords, right? And so they had the swords. And the idea is that if you try to get back into the presence of God without any kind of atonement, like covering your sin, covering your, like, you won't survive.

You cannot stand in his presence. And so I read this in Gregory Bill's book about the temple. he gave like four or five different differences between the temple of Israel or the tabernacle and verses like pagan temples because there were a lot of similarities. But here's which Dr. Jackson mentioned when we were in this study, the similarities to the old temples. But this is what he says. He says one of the major differences in the inner sanctuary of the pagan temple and the inner sanctuary of the Holy of Holies of God's temple

was that in all of the pagan temples there was an idol. So think Dagon. There's these idols, but there was no such thing in the Holy of Holies since God's being cannot be seen, much less an image of it reproduced by human craft. And I thought, ma'am, you think about this scene where they bring in this ark, there's no idol.

And then they have their idol in God's presence, alone is in, like, it's signified in this Ark of the Covenant on that mercy seat, and his presence alone consumes the idols of man. I mean, to me, that is one of the most powerful text in Scripture, and to think about that these armies and these kings and these, these principalities, these powers in our world could not stand against God's Ark of the Covenant. Now, in fact, when you were saying that, Zach, I was thinking about Hebrews 12, 28, which describes the kingdom of God. And it says, the Hebrew writer said, therefore, since we're

receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful and so worship God acceptably, with reverence and awe for our God is a consuming fire. And I just, that idea of how powerful the presence of God is. And, Zach, you've talked about this before. The reason Moses couldn't look at the face of God and, you know, couldn't even be near God's presence without glowing, literally, is because it's too powerful for us. And as sinful people, without the sacrificial, you know, acceptance through Christ, we can't stand up in the presence of God.

We can't even function there. It's too powerful for us to do. and which I think way back in Genesis when Dr. Jackson made the point that I'd never thought about it for, that it was merciful to eject Adam and Eve out of the garden once they recognized their own flaws, because otherwise they're trying to be in the presence of God as sinful creatures, and it doesn't work. It cannot. I think that's what's going on here. I think part of this is not, because we want to read this text and you say, well, the hand of the Lord was heavy against the people of Ashdod, and he terrified and afflicted them with tumors,

both Ashdod and its territory. And I think we want to read that thing, almost as if God's levying this out, which I think he is. I think he is doing that. But I think it's the very nature of being in his presence unholy. I mean, even in this, God's obviously withholding, like he's withholding what should fully consume them

and instead of being fully consumed and eradicated, they're getting a little taste of it. Tumors are popping up. So that they'll send it back. Get it out of here. That's the whole point. Yeah. Get this thing out of here, which they do, which is pretty amazing.

But let's talk about this, because when I first read tumors of the growing, I was like, what in the world? And then I read a lot of different things about it, and I've heard everything's been written from hemorrhoids to all this different stuff. But the thing that made the most sense, to me. It was actually from this book

that is kind of our companion study which is Robert Alter's book. He did the work we did in Genesis and Exodus as well. This is what when Dr. Jackson reads, he's reading from this. And there was in the commentary he talked about bubonic plague.

And I didn't know much about bubonic plague until I looked it up. And it was carried by rats, mice, you know, which we have the mice here in the story. And at first you don't see. You see that later on the So you're wondering where the mice come from. Well, this disease is carried by mice.

When it's transferred to humans, it affects your lip notes. So it's under your armpits and then you're growing, where you have the most lymph nodes. So you get all this swelling because of this plague, you know, this viral plague, this brought in by the rat. So it sounds like, I mean, it may end up be something totally different. But it makes sense. That's probably what it was because that word means growing bubonne, from bubonic plague. And so it's really interesting because the very thing that were recognized as why they had the plague, I guess the litmus was put to them that the offering is we need five of those tumors, gold, and five of those rats.

And you send that back with the ark and we'll see what we can do for you. And it was just, it was such an odd thing, but the same time it was the idea that you have to be willing to repent, which they did. You should have never taken the ark. And two, you have to do something. You have to obey God. And the obedience was, we're going to send something. And I wonder, whatever happened to the five golden tumors and the five golden mics, because they wind up someplace.

Yeah. They're probably still out there buried somewhere. You should go look for them. I should look for them. No, you should talk to Jace. That's exactly right. We could do a little bit of a metal detector. Looking for five golden mice and five golden tumors here.

Think about this, though. What did Israel, what did Israel, what did Israel, do? What was their contribution? Because essentially this is the Philistines being defeated, right? They're defeated to the point where they're sending back golden rats and golden tumors, but what was Israel's contribution?

Zip. None. Not a... Not one shred of contribution from Israel. And then all of a sudden, on the backs of that, they look at... They look at the Philistines and they say,

give us a king. I thought that It was such a great point that Dr. Jackson brought out that they said give us a king right after they saw the Ark of the Covenant to beat the Philistines. I mean, you cannot make this type of belligerence up. Yeah, that's crazy. That is crazy. I forgot he made that point. I do like how the Israelites, whenever the Philistines wanted to get rid of the hemorrhoids

and we're ready to send it back, we're like, what do we have to do to send it back? Like, how do we get rid of this thing? And the Israel is like, we also need a little gold. Like, we'll take it, but you got to throw it a little extra in there just to make sure that it all goes away. I love that. And they did. Well, Zach, I hadn't ever thought about it until you were mentioning about the arc and describing it that those three things had not really thought about it until we had this discussion. That if you think about the staff, in my mind, that represents the power of God, because that's where, remember, the first, you know,

symbols and signs that Moses did, and then also imparting the Red Sea. Remember, the staff was at the part of every bit of it. Striking the rock. Do you know what it's called in Scripture? What? The Rod of God, or the staff of God. Francis Schaefer wrote about this in one of his books. I can't remember which one, but he had a whole thing on this, that it's this seemingly dead piece of wood. Yeah. But that's the point. Like, it was the rod of God. So, like, the power wasn't the raw. But it was the rod of God. I just love the symbolism. So you got the power in the staff.

And then you have the manna, which was God's provision, because God's just raining this food down to let them know that I'm with you. You quit worrying about the leaks and the onion. I'm there. And then you got his protection in the law because mainly the protection from each other, but also from him. Because he says, I'm your only God. You got to trust me. So you walk your way through the law. And the law was given as

a protection, not as something, and even to show us that we couldn't do it on our own. So you put the protection, the power, and the provision together, and you get the presence of God, which was protected by these angels, which, I just found that fascinating. I had never really thought about that, too, you just said it. So thank you, Zetka, that's a sermon. That is. And just to remind you guys, every Friday we're doing this, you can join us for Unashamed Academy powered by Hillsdale College, and you could check it out at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com and

joining here with us. But you know, what's interesting about the story is how many times that the Exodus is referenced. And it's a story that they continue to go back to. And so whenever there's the warning, when they're like, give us a king, give us a king. We want a king like the other nations. Give us a king. They're just demanding a king. And Yahweh, through the prophet Samuel, is pretty much like, that's not what you want.

In fact, if you get this king, what's going to happen is you are going to become his slaves. In other words, you're going to return back to Egypt. And so he's evoking that memory of the Exodus. And he said, why would you want to go back to that? And they actually choose. They actually say, no, we want the king. We want the slavery. And everything that was prophesied by Samuel actually came to pass.

I got a few questions kind of of what happens next in the lecture. Because from now it goes to the anointing of Saul and then the election of Saul. Then he kind of talks about Samuel's final warning. So it talks about the anointing of Saul, right? We're introduced to Saul as he's a donkey herder from Benjamin. And the story really starts with him out looking for his father's donkeys. And Dr. Jackson talked about this. And I've heard almost every other one talk about, you know, from like a commentary standpoint

on kind of Saul's indecisiveness at the very beginning. If he's looking for these donkeys and then he starts with, worrying about what's his father going to think. And I'm always kind of confused by that of, you know, of like how does that story resemble indecisiveness rather than just, if I'm out looking for something that my dad sent me to do and I'm like, well, it's getting late. My dad might be worried about me. So I'm just going to go home and tell him what happened. I don't know. I feel like sometimes I wouldn't equate that to being an indecisive person. I don't know, but I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that. I think.

introduced to him. My guess would be is because of what happens next, because I'm with you. I thought the same thing. That alone probably wouldn't describe that. But if you put that together with when they're finally looking for the king and the lot has fallen to him and he's hiding out in the baggage, he probably doesn't

really want the job, which again doesn't necessarily make him indecisive. It just makes him unsure of whether he needs to be this person or not that they're looking for. And I think about it in terms of what would happen. I've had people call me that as I've gotten older about trying to get into politics, you know, because we've been

kind of unashamed about our political views. And so people in Louisiana, they're like, well, you know, you're with your name, you know, your Robertson name, you know, have you considered running for a representative or running for governor or whatever? And I'm like, my instant thought is, are you crazy? Like, I won't know part of that. But I also want good people in government. But I'm just like, but I would just feel like that's not for me. Like I would be, and people are time. They're like, well, we'll raise money. I mean, Zach's been to this before. We'll raise money. And you can do this. And I'm not even questioned that I could do it, but I don't want to do it. And so I think if that's indecisiveness, maybe, but maybe it's just like he's not sure that's what

he needs to be doing. And really, since God has said, don't do this, he was really right to try to denounce the whole thing. I mean, in a sense, I was right all along. Yeah, I think it shows, though, the human nature and that the it's not a lot of it's kind of complex being a human right I mean I think all these stories are interwoven it's easier for us just to see the person to be like

they're absolutely evil and horrible or they're 100% wonderful and good and that's not really any of our stories we all have our stuff we have our even Eli I mean Eli's character here I mean he's like man the guy's like lost the art literally gave away the Ark of the Covenant.

Kind of a big deal. You didn't do your, you have one job. You know, you didn't do it. You know, his kids were a wreck. But then again, he's submitting to God whenever God tells him what he's going to do. And I think the same thing is going on with Saul. I mean, there are really good qualities about Saul. He's not 100% evil.

Now, he becomes very wicked in the end. And I think that's the lesson for us is that we all had that propensity to be that. And I'm not getting into a whole discussion on total depravity. I just mean, I'm just speaking in terms of like there's a complexity to human nature. And then you have David. And David, and goes on to murder Uriah and has an affair with Bashiba. And, I mean,

really wrecks the kingdom. I mean, with a lot of bad decisions. A hundred percent he wrecks the kingdom. I mean, look at what happens after Solomon. I mean, and Solomon did not end well. I mean, read Solomon's story.

I mean, he did not finish well. And so you think, man, he wasn't a great guy either, but then, but he kind of was a great guy. And you know, it's complex. And I think there's a, there's a thread that runs through it that is the distinguishing factor between who's a good guy and who's not a good guy. And it turns out it's not really about what you have done in your performances. Do you have a repentant heart? Yeah. Do you repent? Do you turn? Do you confess? Do you repent? David had wrote Psalm 51. Saul never had, never had, never did.

anything like that. Had Saul wrote Psalm 51, you know, created me a clean heart of God, renew a steadfast spirit of me. Don't take your Holy Spirit from me. You know, a broken spirit and a contrary heart you will not despise. Like surely God, forgive me, Lord. And he falls on his face before the Lord went confronted by Nathan. And I think that's the big difference between what makes David David and everybody else that we're talking about here is he had the heart of, that would repent and turn back to God when he made a mistake. Yeah.

Can you all explain the casting the lots a little more because Dr. Jackson talked about it with Jonah, when Jonah was actually the guilty party on the boat, and when they're trying to choose the king of Israel, they cast the lots again, which whoever falls on is the guilty party, so I was kind of confused on it. So this is ancient.

This goes way back. You see it happen in several cases. One is in the story of Jonah to go back even further, or go forward. And you see the story of Jonah where they're trying to figure out why all these bad things are happening on the boat and then they cast the lights and realize oh, it's this guy. And so, you know,

and he's like, well, throw them in, then they're all afraid to happen. So the idea was is you're letting, in their case it was gods, but you're letting God decide who the guilty party is that's doing these things. So they would cast lots. And I don't know if there's anything we could probably... Essentially they were like

dice. Yeah. Yeah, I knew the dice, but I don't know why... Because you're just saying, since we don't know, what they were saying is, God, you've got to tell us, or gods, you have to tell us. And so they would cast these to then eliminate down to one person. And so that's what happened. And then so another better story is the story of Aiken back in Joshua 7. Because you remember, God has said, if anybody takes anything, you know, when the city is in Jericho is destroyed, then bad things are going to happen. Well, all of a sudden, bad things are happening.

And everybody said, well, what happened? So they went back and they cast lots And they all fell down This little guy Aiken Who took some things that he shouldn't have taken And then everybody knew it was him So it was just another one of those I think the interesting thing about it

In this particular case Is that they were choosing a king this way Yeah And of course Dr. Jackson's point was Well isn't that really though The whole picture is that You know we come down to our own guilt Because none of us have ability to really lead

And really be who we say we are So he used it as kind of a contrast picture. Kind of like he was saying, it's kind of like he's saying that God would be saying, okay, if you want a king, that's fine, but I'm going to choose him. But in my choosing, I'm going to expose your heart in my choosing. And so the quote that I wrote down in my notes when he said this is this whole process, I thought about the CS Lewis quote where he says that there are two kind of people in this world.

those to whom those who say to God, thy will be done, and then those to whom God says, thy will be done. And so it kind of turns out that the wrath of God, a lot of times, so you read the book of Romans, Romans 1, the wrath of God can actually be God

just saying, okay, here, have what you want. Like, that can be his wrath. His wrath is not always like, I'm pouring wrath on you. It could just be like, okay, you want that. All right, I'm going to give you what you want, thy will be done. And so that's what's happening here.

The thing they're demanding will actually become their demise. The thing that they're demanding will actually be the vehicle through which they will be in bondage and slavery. And that's the prophecy that he sells. But they're like, no, we want a king. We want a king. We want a king. He's like, okay, here's your king. That's how I interpret it.

So the lot becomes like a, when he says it, it was a, it was like how you would identify who was cursed or who the guilty party was. it's almost like here saying, okay, you guys are guilty. You're the guilty party. Yeah. Yeah, I took it as like, from a literary standpoint, like the perversion of the right way to use it.

Like, you're supposed to use it to find the guilty party, but they're perverting that to decide on the king that God, that they're not supposed to get any ways. They're trying to use it in a good way whenever it's supposed to be used for a different way. Yeah, because it's interesting.

Sorry, sorry to continue what you're saying. I was going to say. say, and I think that, to kind of echo what Zach said, like, what the person God chooses is the exact stereotype of what they want. Tall, good looking, from a rich family. Like, God's basically saying, like, I'm just going to give you everything you want so you can, and then you'll see the results of it. Because it's interesting of where, because you kind of talked about this earlier, Alan, of it seems like Saul does not want to be king at the beginning, right?

He's hiding. But then later on in the story, he won't give up the kingship. And then in the later lectures, yeah, Dr. Jackson, they're talking about if Saul would have just given up his kingship and just repented, you know, his demise would not have happened. And I kind of wonder, because at least so far he hasn't, Dr. Jackson hasn't talked about this, but of why Samuel was so, like why he could not let Saul go. Samuel's pleading later in the chapters, he's pleading to God on behalf of Saul. And I kind of wonder of that of about the beginning of if Samuel's kind of feels like a guilt for Saul of he did not, at least initially he did not want this. So you kind of feel like that burden of Samuel tore Saul of Saul's thrust it into this thing that he necessarily didn't want. So Samuel maybe kind of feels like a guilt of, I've put him in this position and I kind of feel bad about it.

Well, and I think it's a great observation. And I also think Samuel had to have thought, I mean, think about it, he's the last of the judges. He's the last of the prophets that has been leading Israel supposedly with God in charge and not necessarily him. And now of a sudden he couldn't cut it either. I mean, his kids weren't ready. Same problem. You know, they weren't faithful. And so, right, it got passed on.

And so I think he feels linked to that. I think there is a certain truth to that. And that's why he does have a problem. And you know it's true because we're going to get. to this in the next lecture. But when it comes to David's anointing, Samuel makes the same mistake again.

Remember the older sons to have something? He said, now, this guy, that looks like a little saw 2.0 right here. He has the same reaction. And you think after this time he'd say, come on, man. I mean, have you not learn? So I do think this is, I think this goes back to our last podcast

when we talk about strengths and weaknesses and how many times they're intertwined. And I think it shows some of Samuels and it shows a lot of Saul's because and I don't know if that's in this story or not but you know immediately saw all of a sudden just goes thunder on everybody and goes what did he say berserk or that maybe the next podcast but that's exactly what he does so he sure went from a guy who didn't want the job yeah to burn this sucker down you know like the next thing he does I mean it shows that there was something there you know that

was there though don't forget to sign up to take the court for free at unashamed for hillsdale.com. It's where all the lectures are. And of course, you're getting our take on it as well. What else? We're about out of time. Any other thoughts you guys have? Yeah, I had one more.

I think it was interesting that as soon as Saul got into power, you know, he hacked up the ox. He sent it around town to basically say, anybody that crosses me, this is your fate. So he almost immediately shows like tyrannical behavior. And this is interesting to me because there's a really good book that a guy named, you guys are Josh Turner. I don't know if y'all know him or not.

The singer? No, he came and he was a pastor. He's been in town. I know you know him. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that Josh Turner. Yeah. Yeah. So he told me this one. He said, he gave me a book to read. It was called A Tale of Three Kings. I read that book. It's so good. You read it? It's so good. But it's about three people, Saul, David, and then Absalom. And each one of those people, I think it's Absalom. I'm pretty sure it's Absalom. Anyways, each one of those people, they represent a particular power dynamic. And Saul was obviously the king.

king that was in power. Then David was the man that was waiting to take his spot, which Dr. Jackson mentioned him. Surely David knew he was the anointed one he knew he was going to be king at some point. And look at how he honored Saul throughout the entire process. And look at how Saul being in power did everything that he possibly could do to hang on to that power, which is a very dangerous thing. And so it's just a weird dynamic. Well, then on the other side of it, you have David then also was the guy in power at one point, and then Absalom was the one wanting the power. And it was this, it's like a tale of these three characters and how they all interact and how David kind of when he was in power, he wasn't hoarding it.

And when he wasn't in power, he wasn't coveting it. And I think what you're seeing with Saul is you're seeing on this side of it, we'll get to the other part later with the power that comes after David. but what you're seeing here is an obsession and a demonic possession that accompanies those who would seek to contain the power that they've been given at all costs. And I thought that was just interesting that you see that at the very beginning of Saul's reign. Yeah, because I've heard, at least because when I read it, when I read of him hiding behind the armor bear or behind the armor, I view that maybe more. So it was like a humility of like, I don't want to be king. But other commentaries talk about that as just like the cowardness kind of that he displayed at the beginning. So I can tell folks how to bring us home.

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