Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1225 | Jase Responds to a Gut-Wrenching Porn Confession & Facing the Consequences of Our Sins

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

Jase, Al, and Zach respond to an emotionally raw husband who finally confessed his lifelong porn problem and is now facing the painful fallout. The guys talk honestly about how secrets choke intimacy, why confession hurts before it heals, and how hiding only multiplies the damage that sin has already done. They pivot into Phil’s old “soul-sleep” way of describing death and compare it to Jesus’ promise of paradise and Paul’s glimpses of the world to come. The guys land on why believers can face both confession and death with confidence: in Christ, neither your darkest secret nor your final breath gets the last word. In this episode: John 19, verses 38–42; John 20, verses 19–23; Acts 17, verse 28; Romans 8, verses 10–23; 1 Corinthians 5, verses 1–5; 2 Corinthians 12, verses 1–4; Galatians 5, verses 16–18; Ephesians 2, verse 6; Ephesians 3, verses 16–19; Ephesians 4, verses 9–10; Ephesians 4, verses 4–6; Revelation 1, verses 13–18; Revelation 2, verse 7; Revelation 21, verses 1–4; Revelation 22, verses 1–5 Chapters: 00:00-15:11 When your dirty secrets are exposed 15:12-21:08 A baseball champ comes for dinner 21:09-26:06 Mia comes home for the holidays 26:07-31:16 Facing the consequences of our sins 31:17-42:15 Are we awake after we die? 42:16-50:25 Paradise is a person & a place 50:26-57:12 A present reality with future benefits — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. We're still here together days. I know. I mean, we did our last podcast, which was basically about y'all's sermons, because y'all both preach yesterday. And it still kind of lingers in the mind, you know, as you go for it. It does. And there's so much going on now. I mean, we've entered duck season, so my whole world changed. Usually I'm going every day. I only went opening day with y'all. And today you would have been cold because this is a classic. It's only, it's like 52 degrees, but it is just, when you walk outside, it's wet because it's got a drizzle.

It is a Louisiana cold. Zach, you remember that when it's like, oh, yeah. It's funny. I've moved up your 50, but it's so cold in your bones. It's different. Yeah. It's different. I was colder in Louisiana than I am in North Carolina.

And you're like 20 degrees colder in the winter most of. Yeah, but you have a secret weapon. You have the abondable snowman that he's actually worn on this podcast. Yeah. It looks bulletproof. He looks like Iron Man. It's a cross between the Michelin Man, Iron Man, and Snowpuff or whoever they is. The marshmallow land.

Let me tell you something. And they're not a sponsor. I'm going to tell you, though, if you want to tell you, though, if you want a warm. warm jacket, that arterics. Oh, here we go. Zach never wasted an opportunity to bring up an ad. But let me tell you, this is they're not a sponsor.

Zach is hoping they will be. I'm just saying that that, I bought that jacket about four years ago, and I will tell you, I've never been cold wearing it in any situation. Never been cold. Well, I want to go on record today as saying, if they become a sponsor, I want me to get the jacket because Zach already has one.

So, yeah. Zach, I hope you get so cold one day that you have to set that jacket a blaze just to warm yourself in the moment. Oh, I got this thing.

I got this thing in here on 79 degrees. Mark in the back, he likes it cold. And so he hates it. But I mean, he's back there just sweating. I mean, he can't stand up on a part of us.

Well, if I ever visit you, I'm going to be with Mark. You're going to be with Mark. Yeah. Mark, you got a fan up here. He's going to join you back in the back. Well, I wanted to read something because we got a, we did get an email in that really, I don't read all the emails, but we get it, because we get a lot of emails and messages,

but I try to really read through the ones I can. And I wanted to read one to y'all because I wanted us to address something that we talked about on a podcast. I guess it was episode. 1197. 1197. We did a, I think, a really important podcast on pornography. And we kind of shared our own experiences with that. You need to go back and listen to that if you haven't yet.

And this is actually something that I was sponsored by Covenant Eyes. It's something that for me, like this is something that I think is an issue, maybe one of the most dominant issues that we face in our culture. And I knew that episode was going to hit people hard, and I knew that it was convicting. I felt the Holy Spirit move as we were talking. And so we got an email. I don't know the gentleman's name.

I wouldn't say it obviously, even if I did have his name, but it made its way to me. And I want to read his email. because it took me back to a moment when I actually confessed some things to Jill and how we worked through that. Al, I know you guys have gone through a lot of issues in your marriage as well. So I wanted to read it and then get you guys to respond. I got some thoughts too.

But this particular gentleman said, he said, I recently watched your episode on porn use. I've struggled with this since I was a child and now I'm 35. Thankfully, with much prayer, I have several months. of sobriety and considered never telling her his wife about it. However, I continued to have an overwhelming conviction and guilt that I hid this from my wife, so I decided to tell my wife after watching the episode, and she was devastated. She told me the night that she almost wishes that I would never have even told her. I'm scared our marriage may not make it through this, and I'm wondering how Zach and Jill made it through the first days after confession. I'm desperate for her forgiveness,

and I'm willing to do whatever it takes. Any tips on what I can do in the the early days of my confession. And I want to hear really from you, Al, too, because I think you have a book called, don't you have a book called Desperate for, what was it called? Desper forgiveness. Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, how do you? We deal with this one head on. Yeah. For me, my advice would be to answer directly the question. One is, even though she responded that way, which is understandable, this is new news for her, because obviously it sounds like she had no idea. But when you look back at Genesis 3, in the garden, and you see when the first sin comes in, you notice what you see is once that

deceit now has brought to light, you start seeing the responses to it. You see this idea of shame, fear. Remember, they didn't want to be, first they wanted to be a part. They didn't want God to know, and they're hiding, and they realize they were naked. And then this division begins to happen, and then it just cascades down the line. So first of all, you did the right thing by telling the truth because deceit causes division that later on leads to the separation stuff. So the idea somehow that it's better if we don't know things is never a good idea, especially in a marriage.

Well, since the Bible says the exact opposite, right. Truth has always shines like, so first of all, you did the right thing. But I understand from her perspective, this is new news. So yes, it's devastating. And it does feel like I wish I did. Well, and it's a betrayal to her. Exactly. And the fact you didn't say it before has made it worse.

Has made it worse. Because the longer you live the lie, the harder it is then, because they feel like you've been living a lie the whole time. But here's my advice to you now that you told the truth. And this is to anybody out there and you're wondering whether I should do this. Now you know the truth. Your role as the one who did this is to be completely transparent. In other words, my wife has access to anything I have access to.

Now what you want to do is keep the evil one from, bringing in future division. So your life now is an open book. It should be that way anyway, but obviously you've had this secret thing going on. That's one thing, because that gets their confidence. You're not hiding. You're not on the phone. You're not off somewhere by yourself. You're not awake when she's asleep doing things you shouldn't be doing. So transparency. And then the other thing is you have to relay confidence to her. Because I'm speaking to this from the perspective of my wife, who it wasn't pornography. It was an affair, which some people would say it's worse. But it's not any worse, it's just another sin. But my idea was I had to have transparency from her. I needed confidence

to know that she was wanting to change this about herself, and that we were going to go forward and then grow into different people. So that would be the two things I would say. And then the other thing is when she understands that when she forgives you, she's doing exactly what God does, then she'll have that idea of what she needs to do going forward. And it won't be that I just won't know. it's that how can I help my husband be better? So, you know, look, our books are out there. I'm not saying this to sell a book. I'm saying this to help you.

I wrote, we wrote a new season of Desperate Forgiveness as a way to put in people's hands to help them with this very issue. So if you can find the book online, find one. If not, send an email, and I'll try to get you one. Well, and I'll say this too. When you think about the gospel and what we've been really talking about on this podcast from the very beginning,

the gospel, it does go back to Genesis chapter 1, 2, and 3. And when Adam and Eve sin for the very first time, and they hide, which is what you were doing, you high, which is what I was doing, we hide, we don't want to be seen, we cover up with fig leaves. The idea is the anxiety that you feel and experience in that division that Al talked about, you feel that because you're like, man, if they actually break through this covering, this artificial covering that I've made, they break through these fig leaves, They're going to see my nakedness.

They're going to see my problems. They're going to see all my issues. And so what happens in relationships is that creates an unsustainable anxiety. And the anxiety is it's the fear of being known and exposed. And so when God shows up in Genesis 3, he doesn't look at Adam and Eve and say, oh, you guys aren't bad. They're not that bad. Don't worry about it.

He actually recognizes their depravity. He says, you're much worse than you think you are. but that cover is not going to be durable. So he makes a suitable covering for them. And that's the first time that you actually get the shedding of blood in the Bible. And he makes that more durable skin. And that's a foreshadowing of Christ who will cover our sin. And why this matters is because if you're in a state in your marriage where you're having to hide,

even your past, then you're not really known. And you're not going to really achieve true intimacy. Here's true intimacy. True intimacy is when your spouse, sees you in your worst state and says, I'm still present. Not that I affirm you, not that I'm saying what you did is good, but I'm still present. I see you there and I'm not leaving. That's the gospel, by the way. While we were enemies, Christ died for us. While we were hostile towards him, Christ died for us. So it's to be seen in that state. So you did make the right move. And I know it's

painful to go through. I've been through something very similar in my marriage. And over time, that gets better if she's a spirit-filled woman. She's going to lean into the move with the Holy Spirit. And for me and Jill, that was the, that was, look, we didn't just, I didn't snap my fingers and then everything was healed. I mean, it took time. But now we're on the other side of that many, many years later. And I can tell you that being known in that way is so sweet.

It's so real. It's so tangible. And that's what God has for you. So I would hang on to the vision and that picture of where God's going to take you. you. And I would just say accountability, as Al said, accountability matters. And that's why we don't want you guys out there that are struggling with this. I mean, I know that was kind of a hard episode that we did, but we don't want you to think that you're alone. And it's why we push people to things like covenantize. You know, victory by covenant eyes. I think they actually have something for women now as well. It's called a rise for women, which is a 21-day video program. And then you have frontline 21 with systems strategies for men. They really have a lot of great stuff. It's covenantize.com slash unashamed. And you can get the victory software free for 30 days if you visit them now.

So it's covenantize.com slash unashamed. Well, I will say, now, there are a few cases where, you know, sins are confessed and they do leave. But I think you've got to remember it probably wasn't going to work anyway, which is no consolation prize. Because it does happen. I remember a guy who confessed his sins one night. and which, you know, he was breaking the law and spent 10 years in prison. But I'm like, you can be free in God's eyes even because that doesn't change the fact of what you did.

And there are consequences to it. So it may not in all cases work out the way you wanted with people, but all through the Bible, the theme is, and especially in the Old Testament, you know, God kept saying, if you'll just turn to me, you know, confess your sins, turn to me. I mean, come to me. I mean, that's all he wants as far as to offer his forgiveness and grace. And it also helps you be able to be held accountable, like y'all said. But I just wanted to throw that in. That's a good point, Jace. I think that I was thinking the same thing. I'm glad you articulated that because your job and your role is not to manufacture the outcome of anything.

I mean, that's not really our... It's out of your control. And you did it. And there are consequences. And it happens. And sometimes it doesn't end well. But you now, if it does work out, you have a helper. I mean, that's the way the marriage was described.

And your relationship will be deeper because it'll be united in the grace of, of Jesus. I mean, blood on the cross. I mean, I had to do that with our dad. I mean, I look back at the things he did. But when I came to Christ, I was like, well, what am I going to do about this? And I thought, well, how am I going to appeal to the blood of Jesus and not offer it? So it's a decision that you have to make. And you got to keep in mind, too, the old evil one, he's conniving. He knows, because in this case, the young man mentions that this began very early in his life. And in Lisa's case, there were some things. that happened to her early in life, that then set some things in motion

that she was going to have to deal with the rest of her life. And so I come along in the process, not knowing these things, but then have to live with the results of some of these things. But the idea is that we went in, all in, to try to make it work, and we have made it work. And for the last 25 years,

it's been amazing. And the difference was is because we finally both fell in love with Jesus completely and have the Holy Spirit living in us. It can be amazingly dynamic. And Zach can say the same. thing in your relationship. So tomorrow I'm excited because I'm taking a member of the National Championship baseball team.

Oh, that's right. I forgot about this. He's coming in tonight at some point. And I had a deer backstrap that I was going to cook for him, first deer of the year. But my family came in. In A. Missy came in from Nashville. There was nothing to eat.

And I'm taking Ethan. Fry. And I'm like, sorry, Ethan, but the family has spoken. Ethan Fry's a big old boy, too. He probably could have done some serious damage on that backslash. We're going, we're going pork chops with nothing wrong with a pork chops. You can never go wrong. M.A.K. Recipe that I've moved way up in the batting order. Look, what she does, she takes the pork chops. She browns them real quick and peanut oil. Yep. Just like flash. Yeah. Then puts them in a, um, crock pot

with mushrooms and onions yeah Lisa does the same thing so we use we use cast iron in the oven but it's the same same concept

and so she'll she'll have they get super tender like that because you're slow roasting them but you got to flash

them to get that little they get that little char on them to begin you gotta have so she'll have the

caramelization that's the key she'll have the side dishes she'll probably do a homemade macaroni and cheese and some

some kind of bread. We got this olive oil. She gets from Spain, who now has some kind of distributor in America. She's been on a quest. So is he coming in tonight? Yeah, he's coming in.

Because I want to come meet him. Well, I'll send you in 20. And now I want some pork chops, too. Well, I can't do the pork chops because, you know, I'm trying to like. At some point, I'm getting close to my... That's meat.

I know. I know. It does fit my diet, but I'm like being super sensitive. I'm very close to my goal weights. That's more for us. Yeah. But anyway. I want to take away food

from Ethan Frye. He earned it with that national championships. So that'll be fun. We met his mom in Omaha at the at the game. Oh, that's right. They were coming, but then he went pro and it just, we got sidetracked so then he's I think he's going on a hunting trip. He's like hey, hey buddy, how about I just

stop in and hunt, which I didn't tell him we didn't have any ducks. But, so we hadn't hunted the last two days because I'm hoping this little front may move some ducks. But if not, it'll be good. But I thought it's so interesting because I'm going to see if I can get any inside information on, you know, anything LSU.

Because look, what's so funny is I meet so many people from different states. They think I know who the next LSU coach is going to be. They're like, okay, who they're hiring? I'm like, how would I know? I'm duck hunt. We're getting our intel from Zach, who's giving us stuff he heard in San Diego. And so it's so amazing. My whole family was talking about that last night.

They kept asking me, I was like, hey, I don't. know, you know, and my son was like, the Vegas, I'd say it's Nick Sabin. I'm like, it's not Nick Saban. They're like, Vegas, have you seen it? They're not built on not being right. I was like, sometimes they miss it. And you know what my reasoning was? I said, and this is what I've been telling people, I'm like, Sabin's not coming here. They named a stadium after him in Alabama. He's not coming back. He's not going to come here and go play at Alabama at Sabin field. Yeah, exactly. And so I pointed out yesterday, which they all laughed. I said, and if that happens, that letter guy at the Alabama field at Sabin Field, all they got to do is

change one letter. And they'll probably do it. They're going to take that B to a T and they're going to make it a T and they're going to call it Satan Phil for when he comes in, which may or may not happen. But that's not going to happen. So I don't know. What it is kind of ironic, Zach, we haven't talked about this since jays brought it up that your university the one you pull for and the one we pull for are competing for the same guy who's at another place so we haven't any talked about that yeah lane kiffin who from what i've gathered is one of the more unpredictable humans on the planet has been so far of course by the time this comes out this will all already happen so yeah well so al so we think i kind of like being on record i mean he's a he's a genius i mean he the price just

keeps getting, I mean, it's just, it goes up. Oh, he's bad. I got a different, I got a different take on it now, though, with college football. All right, here we go, Zay. You have the floor. Tell us. My take on it is, because the last figure I saw was $90 million.

If there's no limit on what you can pay players, just go buy the team at this point. If you're going to spend $90 million, spend it on players. You get the best of the best, you get some average coach, but you just get, you just And you'll coach for free? I'll do it for way less than 90 million.

Zach said, just a few million would do him. I mean, Zach's point is if you spent the 90 million on players, then you can just go get. Well, and even our governor weighed in, which is kind of funny now, because he's like, why are we doing? Because we just had a, we're having a huge deal with paying off the last coach, like $50 million. And so it's like, we're a public university. What are we doing? This is insane. And it is insane.

It might as stay out of the football. Exactly, which is what I thought. Stick to politics. I like Jeff, but stick to politics. But it's been fun. I mean, when my daughter, Mia came, because I hadn't seen my kids, it seems like, all in one place. Look, when she came into my house and I was just there,

nobody else was there at this point, it was like somebody pushed a button, and she just started talking about modern TV, up-to-date shows that I've never, There was one show that I heard. She started with dancing with stars. Dancing with the stars. Dancing with the stars. Dancing with the stars. And the only reason we know about it is because Sadie was on it.

That's, let's face it. And look, she went on for 30 minutes. I said nothing because I had no idea. There was nothing. Everything she was saying, I knew nothing about it. Were you at least acting interested? I mean, like, I was kind of deer in the headlights. Because, I mean, she started talking about dancing with stars.

You remember the crocodile hunter? They got killed. I was like, yeah, what's they got to do? It's the start. It's like, you know, his wife won at 10 years. Now his son is on the show. Isn't between him? So she's a fan of this show.

Yeah, she's a fan. I was like, I didn't think you watched TV. And she's like, oh, no, but right now I do. And she's like, you know, Sadie was on there last week. I was like, are my niece, Sadie? Because she was on. Yeah, they had a reunion show. Yeah, I did almost go find it when I heard that, but I didn't.

I should have, I guess. And what happened, the more she talked, the further I got behind. So when she got to the second show, I couldn't catch up. And I just thought, this is the problem in communication in our world. Because I think she misses me and she hasn't seen me and I hadn't seen her so she wanted to talk. But what she's talking about. I was just hoping you didn't do her like you do me and Zach on the podcast. where you were like looking in your Bible, the hotel.

I was staring at her dumbfounded, and then finally she said, what do you think? And I said, you want to go fishing? And she said, yes, that's why I'm here. Let's go. And we actually went fishing for two hours because they weren't biting at night over in Willie's pond. And me and Willie have worked out an arrangement of if I'll take care.

He's got a rat infestation. All kinds, but they're burying holes and they're destroying his property. And he's tried to do something about it. So, and so I was, now I can come and go as I please, catch fish. You've got full invitation. It's called taxes. Just kill the rats. Yeah, the taxes of the fish are, I've got to do something.

Well, we call it, Zach, because, you know, we're in, we're surrounded by yuppies, even we're married to them. And so we call it a relocation of the rats. My grandsons are fishing, but they do, they're strictly catch and release, which was my idea, because, you know, they don't know how to clean and do fish, but they need to learn how to fish, and so they've been going over fishing. Yeah, well, I catch and release, too, in the grease, in the spirit of rhyme. Catch a release, as long as it's in the grease. That's pretty good.

Well, don't you think that we're in John 19 and 20, and I guess we're at the burial of Jesus at our study? But when he gets to John 20 and after he's raised and he appears to his disciples, he has this moment which seems to stand out in my mind as far as the new creation is represented because he breathes on them in verse 22 and said, receive the Holy Spirit. It's like a picture now of since the resurrection has taken place, there's a new creation where sin and death has been. handled and you can have God's presence in you. But then in verse 23, which a lot of scholars and commentators,

they don't know what to make of this statement. But I think it's what we just got through talking about, because now you have the Holy Spirit. He told them, you know, going to all the world, the other Matthews account and Mark's account, all authorities have been given to me, therefore go make disciples,

you know, baptizing them in name of the Father and Son, the Holy Spirit. Well, in that process, you're having to make all these decisions. about people's lives and what about this? Well, I did this. Or in this case, we're talking about pornography or betrayal or adultery. But he says if you forgive anyone his sins, they're forgiven.

If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven. Which is a hard kind of statement to wrap your head around because you're like, well, he's giving them that power. And the context is the Holy Spirit. Context is the Holy Spirit. And you're having these decisions where even in the, the church there are people uh you know what's that first christians five comes to mind when it's like expelled the the guy was sleeping with his stepmom his stepmom and so you're making these decisions

through the spirit as a group with leadership involved all of that but this is what the new creation looks like that's great but it's still a matter of following that grid of how many verses are about confess your sins one to another, and you will be healed. The one in James 5, confess your sins, and you'll be healed. Well, the healing comes from God, and hopefully that spreads throughout your relationship.

Which is interesting you brought that up, because the number one question I get when we speak someplace, in a marriage context, someone will come up. They would have gone through some infidelity, and they'll say, brother Allen or Mr. Allen, how did you forgive her? Because they're going through it,

and they just are having a hard time stepping over that thing. And I always say the same thing. I said, well, one is I have the Holy Spirit living in me that gives me an advantage I wouldn't have without him. Yeah, I would have the capacity, which to this passage. And the second thing is, all I got to do is look in the mirror and say, you know what, God forgave me. Yeah. And so if he forgave me and I can embrace that and I believe it, then I have the capacity to forgive someone who has hurt me in the worst possible ways you can be hurt because I did the same thing to the Almighty. So the only way this works is if we had this divine connection.

And I always tell them without that, you almost have no chance. I mean, that's why divorce is so high, you know. Well, in this context of that verse, I think he, this is, look, I could be wrong, but I think he's saying, let's say you run up on a situation, which I, you know, I've had several of where like somebody's cheating on their wife and they find themselves to my couch and my wife and I are talking to him.

Well, it's this guy's like I'm not leaving this woman that he's having a affair with. Well, I'm like, well, that's not doable in this situation. So it's not that I'm not forgiving him. It's like he's taking the cross and saying, well, I know

the standard by which I should be living. I literally had this conversation a few months ago. A young man called me. He's going through some problems. I said, what happened? And he tells me. And so my first question is I said, well, have you left this person?

Are you not seeing this woman anymore? Yeah. And he said, no, I'm still saying. Yeah. I said, well, then I can't help you beyond this point. Because like, until that stops, we can't even forget about trying to make your marriage work. We can't even get to any place of either.

Well, that's why I said this. This verse is tricky because if you read it, you're like, oh, and I do think some pastors take this as like they're special representatives of God above everybody else, and they're just doing whatever, saying, man, God got a different thing going. But I think it's in the spirit and dealing with relationships. You're offering God's grace, but people are going to reject it at times. Absolutely. And you're like, but you have to draw a line in the same. and just say, this is not acceptable. We love you, and his forgiveness will always be there if you'll turn to him.

So I think that's the point of that, which I know we were going to get to that later, but I thought that would be a good context to bring it up. But we actually left off the last time we were in John, which has been a minute, is at the burial, and we were talking not the last podcast, but the one before, about what happens when you die? Yeah. And one thing I get a ton of questions about it. So we've been dealing with some of those, where did Jesus go? We talked about cremation. And where do we go? Where do we go? Where's my dad right now, which you, like yesterday, you did an illustration in your sermon, kind of gave this picture, Phil's picture of heaven. But we all realized he doesn't have his body back. Exactly. And. And dad, it's funny because he would always say that. But then he was always a firm believer in what many people call soul sleep, which we didn't get into. this last time where, you know, he imagined it where you just go, he kept comparing a member to a surgery.

The first time he had surgery, he said, you know, I just, I closed my eyes. He said, and then I opened them, and they had operated on me, but I never even knew anything happened and all this time went by. He compared it to that. And so he always believed that, that you just kind of. Like it's a state of consciousness, but time is, is, you don't experience it in the way. Yeah. So he always thought that.

So you're right, Jesse. we kind of, or we'll talk about people meeting and having, or how many pictures have we seen of dad with somebody else who's died, standing around a barbecue pit, you know, this AI. But the idea is that's just kind of things, I think, to help us to imagine, but what it is actually like,

to be honest, I have no idea. I mean, I don't know if it's soul sleep. I don't know if there's an awareness. You don't have a body. I know that. Right. Until you're resurrected. You don't.

But so the Bible, I think I did bring this, mentions this word paradise. So I think in Luke 23, because it's not in John's version, but I think it's Luke 23. It is. With the thief on the cross. Now, the other thief was basically mocking him. And you brought that up yesterday.

And but the one that Jesus had the conversation with. 2343 is where he says. You want to read it? Yeah, it says, well, the thief said, Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Because the other thief was mocking Jesus. And he rebukes the other guy. He's like, we were wrong.

This guy hadn't done anything wrong, which was interesting. He knew that. And then Jesus answered him, I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise. So that's what he says. Yeah. So he brings up this word paradise, which if you look up what it means, which is like enclosed park or garden. and you're like for that audience, where do you immediately go?

You go, when you say the garden, because it's a strange conversation. If you just remove what you've heard about it before and just think about it like you're walking by, here's a guy claiming to be the son of God in about way he acted. And he's having a conversation with a guy who's been up to mischief. and he's like, look, after we die, let's meet in the garden. Yeah. You're like, what? This is turning into science fiction here.

But that's what he said. Yeah. So. And the other guy is saying what most people would think. Well, if you're such a big deal, why don't you just get us out of this thing? You know, that's the other guy. Well, yeah, if you can meet in a garden later. I mean, why not get us off of this cross right now?

be down now, call the celestial beings or whatever. So, which takes you back to the garden, which is why I think it actually works that I brought up that verse about him breathing into the spirit when he breathed into the life of the first man. And on that podcast for last, we talked about what humans are made up of, which is dirt, because that's where man was made. And the woman a rib, but that rib came from dirt. And this divine breath, which is, which is.

the science world would call energy that turns into heat when you die. We both agree that nothing's leaving. It's still here in some capacity, which the reason I brought that up is because it even makes sense scientifically. But if you were the creator of matter, if you're the one doing the breathing and the creating, well, what's making a new body? What's making that material that's taking a new form, well, it's nothing. I mean, that's what people get hung up on the miracles as not following God, because they're like, oh, I mean, you got a fish eating a guy. I'm sure you can go find an internet video somewhere where a fish ate somebody or whatever,

AI constructed. But it's actually doable if you're the creator. This is not a big deal if you can have, if you can pull this off once. And so when he brings up the garden, so the. the other places that he brings it up off the top of my head is, what's the one in Second Corinthians? Third Heaven. Yeah, the Third Heaven.

And we did a podcast on this before. It's in 12, I think. But I don't mind revisiting it because it is a good question. Yeah, St. Corinthians 12. Yeah, Second Corinthians 12, Nepal, he says, I must go on boasting. I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man, which, for whatever reason, the scholars believe that he's speaking about himself.

Yeah, same way John did several times when he, like, third-personed himself. Because this is so crazy, I think that's why he's doing it. And have I not done that before? I've been in a sermon before, and I was like, you know, I know a guy. And I'm talking about myself. So in Christ, who was called up to the third heaven.

Now, we could go down that rabbit trail with the third heaven, but there's a basic belief because when heaven is used in the Bible, it's kind of... Well, you said it earlier, the idea was you have the sky. In the Hebrew world, they saw the sky.

Then they saw, like, the cosmos above the stars, and the galaxies. Well, we would call space, and then you got where God is. That's the light. But it's not like it's far off. Right. It's a different dimension.

Right. Because... It's another round. Yeah. I think we can leave it there. So he's caught up to the God space. Whether it was in the body or out of the body, I don't know. God knows.

And I know that this man... So that phrase I quickly read, whether it was in the body or out of the body, I don't know. So he doesn't know literally whether he was transported there. Or he don't know if his divine breath... Yeah. that because you have passages like Ephesians 4 that says that the father is what does it say through all in all with all through all and in all and the Colossians 1 you know in in Christ all things are held together we're talking atoms and molecules same thing at Paul sermon Acts 17 in him we live move and have our being yeah there's a sustaining energy

force that even non-believers believe that's out there that we don't know what to do with you can go study quantum physics and they're going to come up with the same conclusion what we're what do what do we do with this heat and energy all around that seemingly is sustaining life in some way so then he says verse three and i know that this man whether in the body or out of the body or part of the body i don't know but God knows, was caught up. Well, look, there's that word again. To Paradise. To Paradise. So when you think back to the thief, you think, well, is Paradise a person? Because in the first garden, God was there. And I think that's the idea. Because if you take the other three passages that are mentioned about what happens when you die, Paul twice said, you're at home with the Lord.

Or you're here. Yeah. I forgot the first one there. But there's three of them that talks about that. I think the thief, yeah, because he said today you'll be with me in paradise. So then he heard inexpressible things, things that man was not permitted to tell. So God doesn't want us to know about that. And there's very little.

I'm just giving you the very few passages that talk about what happens in this intermediate faith. Yeah. Now, in Jesus' case, we left off on the point of, you have the 1st Peter 3, where he seemingly, as, while he was buried, went and preached to the spirits from the time of Noah, which you got to remember, was when the celestial beings, that happened right after this Genesis 6 and the nephalum and all this, that these celestial beings rebelled. against God. And so like some people believe in the scholarly world that these eventually became the demons that he's casting out was this celestial beings with the daughters of men in Genesis 6.

Now look, I don't know, but it seems to make sense to me that something there was going on. And then Peter brings that up, First Peter 3. Because he was talking about baptism and the flood, but you could also take that passage, by the way, one way to take it, is the same spirit that was in Jesus was there present for Noah to preach to those same people that they needed to get on the boat. That's true.

That's another way of looking at it, is my point. I'm kind of in the camp of the celestial being, you know, in Jude where it says they're locked up in gloomy dungeons and Second Peter gets into that chapter two. Reserve for judgment. Reserve for judgment. Now, whatever he declared, but for us, it's only the. three passages about paradise, which is a garden, and even when you get to the last book in Revelation, where the new heaven and new earth come out of heaven, well, all of a sudden, when you get to chapter 22, you have a scene of a garden. It says, the angel showed me the river of the water

of life flowing from the throne of God and the lamb down the middle of the great street of the city and on each side of the river look there were there stood the tree of life where was that that was in the garden and now we're at the end of the store here and the leaves of the trees are for the healing of the nations no longer were there being cursed the throne of god and of the lamb will be in the city and his servants they will see us face there will be no night okay so if you go back to revelation one so here's john who's given instruction in this, which all these kind of occurrences of where heaven and earth overlap, think the transfiguration, you're seeing some glimpse of the heavenly

merge in the earthly. I mean, there's two dead guys, well, not dead, but Moses died, and Elijah, who was just taken up to heaven, have a conversation with Jesus while they're emanating light. and Peter's like, hey. And somehow Peter James and John recognized them as Moses and Elijah. So obviously it was some physical form of some point. And you have the story in

Ezekiel where he sees this vision and kind of like Paul said, I don't know what just happened. Well, the one I'm going to read here, this is John in Revelation 1. It says he was in the spirit and he has this dream,

but just listen to what this says. And he's supposed to, you know, give this message to seven churches, and this is a lot like Ezekiel. And I left out the one about Jacob, remember the stairway to heaven, wrestling with God, and he was in this weird state and thought he was asleep. So here's this one that says, I had this vision, verse 13, among the lambsstance, was someone like a son of man? Well, where's that coming from?

It's a direct quote from Daniel 7 talking about the kingdom, and Jesus would establish. He's dressed in a row, reaching down to his feet, and with a golden sash around the chest, his head and hair were white like wool as white as snow. Eyes were like blazing fire. Feet were like bronze, glowing in the furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing winds.

In his right hand, he had seven stars. His face was like brilliant. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his hand on me and said, do not be afraid. I'm the first and the last. I'm the living one. I was dead and behold, I am alive forever and ever. But here's where I wanted to set up. I hold the keys of death and Hades. And so we went through that. In the Bible, in the Old Testament, Shio is the grave. And in the New Testament, Hades is the grave. So your body goes to the grave. But Jesus holds the key. He's saying,

give this message to these seven churches. And the other place where paradise is mentioned is in his message to the first church in Ephesus in verse 7. And I want to read this. It says, he who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says to the churches, to him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Well, we're back to this garden. It's the same garden referred to on the thief on the cross.

Yeah. And so here's the confusing part. When you think about time frame, well, Jesus told him this is fiction to happen. Now, when I read, he's like, today you'll be with me in paradise. Well, when I'm reading this passage, well, this is like post-resurrection. Yeah. At Revelation 22. Quite a bit post because there are a lot of years of gumbo.

So you're thinking, but in the Paul version, when he got caught up third heaven, it already happened. Well, that had 14 years ago. Yeah. So then you start saying, well, when is this going to happen? Well, the answer is yes. Because God, if paradise is a person, he's an eternal being. So that is a present reality.

That's why we keep saying once you get God's spirit, you're part of the kingdom now. You're seated in the heavenly realms now, Evisions 2-6. Well, that carries over now to understand. So where do you go when you die? Where's this energy, this life-giving divine breath? Well, it's where it belongs in the presence of God in a different form while waiting. I think it makes more sense if you read all the verses and you think, oh, I'm in some kind of state. And even when you read this state where he's seeing this in this dream state, that's just his mind trying to comprehend into words something that that's why Paul said, I can't even, these are inexpressible.

He wasn't saying like, oh, it's a secret, I can't tell you. I don't have the words, which is why you get all. this imagery here. And when he said in the NIV, it says, not permitted, man is not permitted, as if he was somehow being held back from what to say. He had no words to touch. That's the point. And so when you think about, when you start looking at this in a different dimension, which is what I'm asking you to do. Because this is outside of our capability of whatever they say, you know, they define dimension as a high depth, width, and then time. Well, this is all above that.

He's eternal, and this is beyond. It's another dimension. Which also explains if you had dimensional control, because we talk a lot about molecular control, but if you had dimensional control, think about what you could do. You're talking about walking through doors or walking wherever you, showing up across time.

I mean, dimensional control would allow you to do whatever you wanted to do. Wow, and the problem with the language of talking about other dimensions is that language, if you think about the necessity of language or what's required to have language, you're making meaning. So you have to have like reference points to draw meaning out of. So you can do it like a little thought experiment, and you can try to talk about what's beyond space without using a spatial term, like beyond. You can't. You can't talk about it. Although we know that space has a boundary, because we've learned that from physics, but when you try to think about what's outside of the boundary, oh, well, they're outside. That's a spatial word. What's beyond, beyond. Or the same thing with time. If you try to think about what was before time, well, you're using temporal words. So I think that's what Paul was kind of hitting up against. It's like he travels to or somehow gets caught up into this other realm. this other dimension, and then to come back into this dimension and try to explain that dimension is impossible, because we don't have the context for that. The words don't exist. They escape us. The language isn't possible, and we won't be able to even have that conversation until we're in

that dimension. Right. So I want to give you illustration what you just said. So one of the face out there believed that Ephesians 4 in verse 10, 9 and 10 is talking about, they interpret this to mean when Jesus died and was buried, you know, he went to hell. And, of course, they're saying it, he went to hell for us. But I just think that that's an inaccurate depiction of what happened. I think his ultimate reason was destroying the powers of death and sin itself that keep us separated from him. And look, he took our sins.

He was put in our place. I'm agreeing with all that. But when you read the First Peter 2 so that we can die to sins, and this new life and new creation can be a present reality with future benefits, as in when you die, you go to be with the Lord. But you also are going to get your body back, just like he did. That's all over the place in the New Testament. There will be, and he's very specific, Romans 8.

your body will be redeemed. 1. John 3, you will get a body like his. We will be like him. So, Philippians 3 is another one. It says our citizenship is in heaven. You made a good point about that yesterday. That's now. Yeah.

But we wait for our Savior to be revealed. Right. But he's coming from heaven. Our bodies will be raised first excellence, and his four. We will get a new body. And it's interesting to me, Because he makes that point.

If he has the power to transform you from death to life, he certainly has the power to transform you in this life. Exactly. Well, I wanted to read this. But they get this passage from Ephesians 4 when it says verse 10, He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens. And when it says descended, it says verse 9, what does he ascend to mean except that he also descended to the lower earthly region?

So they're saying that. Most people believe that's talking about the incarnation. The point I want to make is his prayer, Paul's prayer in Ephesians 3, a part of this prayer captures this dimension thing that we struggle with. Because he says, I pray, verse 16, that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his spirit, which is where all these people were when they had these visions. And watch.

He says, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, And I pray that you being rooted and established in love may have power together with all the saints. Look, to grasp how wide, long, high, and deep, he goes through the dimensions is the love of Christ. And to know this love that surpasses knowledge. It's a person. That's why the sermon I heard that made me go down this rabbit trail was, what if paradise is a person? Yeah. And it is.

It's a divine being. It's like we talk about heaven too. Which later, so in chapter four, I know we're at a time. That's where he says that line, there's one body where the body of Christ, that goes back to Revelation 21. You see it coming out of heaven because that is our citizenship, all those dead people and witnesses. And it's like you were called to one hope. When you were called one, law, one, faith, one baptism, one God, the father of all, who is over all, through all, and in all. There's four alls.

God and Father, of all, overall, through all, and in all. So when you die in Christ, you're good. And you've got a new body coming. And if you're not, you will experience hell, which is just simply meaning you're separated from this divine reality that is eternal. The love of Christ is so strong, it covers any dimension, which is very, very powerful. Which is why he died. was buried and raised, and we get to repeat his process.

I love it. All right, we're out of time. We'll pick it up here next time. I'm unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube, and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.