Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1228 | Willie Robertson’s Love of Sibling Rivalry Finds New Life in John Luke & Christian Huff

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

Al and Zach realize Willie’s long-standing penchant for sibling rivalry didn’t stop with his generation as Christian and John Luke face off along their shared property lines. The guys revisit Phil’s tongue-in-cheek warning about a notorious manhood killer  that’s apparently caused years of collateral damage to Robertson landscaping. Studying Saul and David reveals how pride, jealousy, and excuse-making unravel leaders, and what faithful people can do when those in charge keep making the wrong choices.  In this episode: Deuteronomy 17; 1 Samuel 1–4; 1 Samuel 5–12; 1 Samuel 13–18; 1 Samuel 18–2 Samuel 1 Today's conversation is about Lesson 4 of The David Story: Shepherd, Father, King taught by Hillsdale Professor Justin Jackson. Take the course with us at no cost to you! Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/⁠ More about The David Story: Encounter the beauty of the Bible. The David Story: Shepherd, Father, King explores the lives of Israel's first two kings—Saul and David—to discover the Bible’s profound lessons about fatherhood, the nature of sin, and the consequences of sin on both a family and a nation. While David suffers great tragedies due to his own transgressions, he models a path to redemption through repentance. Join Professor Justin Jackson in a careful reading of First and Second Samuel to gain a deeper understanding of the meaning and beauty of this story that is not only fundamental to the Christian and Jewish faiths, but also a literary masterpiece. Join us today in this pursuit of a deeper understanding of the Bible in “The David Story.” Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters: 00:00-04:05 Phil’s advice on not losing your manliness 04:06-09:57 Saul makes the wrong choice every single time 09:58-16:50 The seductive trappings of power 16:51-24:17 Taking responsibility for your actions is key 24:18-29:15 Samuel goes full-on Old Testament 29:16-34:20 The problem with Sunday school stories 34:21-39:11 David starts as a DoorDasher 39:12-49:00 David rope-a-dopes Goliath to become king — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Did you say you anointed your property with oil? Yes, I did. Well, Zach, it's a biblical thing, you know, to, to anoint things. He ain't gotten to that part yet. Yeah. Well, the story of David, then, you know, even Exodus with the Passover lamb and, you know, the anointing of that. But yeah, we had some, you know, kind of crazy things going on in our life, and we were like, Let's do a little prayer walk over our property. And my boundary lines fall right next to John Luke and Al.

We live on either. This is how we live. This is basically our neighborhood. I ran out of oil right around where both things kind of intersect. Have you guys had trouble since then? We have rabid dogs on our side and John Luke has bees on his. Bees protecting my property. Have y'all had trouble penetrating his property?

Like, is it hard to walk across the barrier? that he's trying to keep us out. There's like three Navy seals that are over there somewhere, and I don't want to miss with them. Yeah, there's a force field somewhere. Yeah. Now, they have a lovely property, and John Luke and Mary Kate do as well.

You know when you get on Christian's property, though. It's like when you're crossing the state line and the roads smooth out. You go from Mississippi to someplace else. So you're saying his yard is a little more manicured? His yard is manicured? It looks very nice. Christian spends a lot of time, I do, yeah.

I know it all. the time myself. Yeah. So you do your yard mowing? No, I don't. I don't. I didn't think so.

I did do my own yard. It's got some potholes in it. Do you think David mowed his own lawn? I think David probably did because he was a humble man. Here's the thing that if you grew up in the Robertson family that I, like I do my own yard, but I've gotten a lot of flack. Me, my uncle Phil used to ride my tail about mowing my own yard. I was like, what's the big deal?

He's just like that like was like a sign of not being a man to him for some reason. Oh, he told us point blank, he said, boys, let me tell you something, when one of your neighbors comes by and they see your butt, you know, because he had away a nuncy of your butt sticking out of a flower bed, you have officially lost your manhood. That's because he didn't have any grass in his yard. Exactly, because he said the frost will get it every winter. Yeah.

I mean, he was like, he didn't even mow it. He was like, yeah, the frost will get it, you know. Hey, John, like talking to Michael a bit more. I'm having trouble here in John Lee. Yeah, he just had dirt in his yard. It was just all dirt and gravel. Yeah, just gravel. Well, one of my greatest victories in life is that there was a time when I hired your dad, Willie,

to work for me as my yard boy. Because Willie was in the yards. He was in his young life. In annual labor at the time, I said, get out there and clean that crap up. I just told him, get out there and clean that outside. He was out there working. He was sitting on the porch of lemonade. Well, he just paid it.

No, he paid him out of his Dave Ramsey envelope. that was the mistake I made because then I paid him out of the envelopes and he starts making fun on me and he's like, oh my gosh you got your little envelopes. And I made the mistake. Tell him your famous lines that.

Yeah, I made the mistake and I have heard this. If I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times. Every time when he's on the podcast, he says what Zach's about to say. Yeah, I said, we were drawing back and forth. I said, I'll tell you what, Willie, you do your thing and I'll do mine and we'll see who ends up on top at the end up at all.

And then about three years later, Duck Dynasty hits. He bought into the Duck Commander business. Every time Willie goes to the podcast, he said, Zach, we still trying to see who's going to come out on time. The worst was when I got a video from Willie, and he was at Dave Ramsey's house. And he was like, hey, remember that time you were doing that Dave Ramsey thing?

And he said, you do your thing, I do mine. And I'm here with Dave right now. He said, we're looking for Dave's envelopes, but we haven't it was funny yeah uh story of david we are in the story of david um speaking of rivalries uh saw how to rivalry with david so our lecture four if you're coming along with us it's unashamed for hillsdale dot com and you can sign up date the course but we're we're in lecture four which i these like these four and five to me were so good man they've all been good i wanted to mention something i did i forgot to mention on our first two we did in this series

And it was a quote from Dr. Arn because he just does a little small like a reamble before Dr. Jackson starts. But he made a comment or a quote that I thought was well worthy. And I think it fits in beautifully where we are today. He said this is, these are stories about perfect providence told through, told through fallen, flawed people. And I love that idea because it's sometimes we get caught. And we've commented on this, the first two podcasts, and really all the way through Genesis and Exodus as well. And we're like, you just, you see these people continue to make these crazy mistakes. And they seem to go on for in some cases, generationally.

And after a while, you just begin to think, man, are these people ever going to get it figured out? But that's the whole deal. I mean, when we're dealing with a perfect God, a creator of all things that wants a relationship with us, of course we're going to be following people. And that's the whole beauty of it. And even us, as we sit here, it almost sounds like you're judgmental, like, looking back and say, look, these robs, you know, they couldn't figure anything out. But, I mean, we're the same way, right? I mean, we face something we're unsure of, you know, we get in a situation where we realize

we've made a huge mistake. And we're still fighting those same things these people were fighting with. So I just think it's important to start it off with the idea today because we're talking about this rivalry. And, man, you'd think Saul would want all the help he could get. And instead of embracing David, which he does on some points, but instead of embracing David and just saying, okay, obviously God's got this guy in my life for a reason. I mean, even his own family realized it. Instead of doing that, he just goes to every link to sabotage the situation.

So I think it just shows how persistent our enemy is, but also how we have to fight our own flaws, you know, in everything we do. So I just wanted to start with that because I just thought that was really pertinent to where we're headed. Give us an overview out of where we're at in the story, because I think you're probably the best at kind of just talking about the history of where we're at. Well, we talked about kind of setting this up. It was an era of the judges, which was post-Canaan. There was a period of time there where the land is conquered. Everything's divided among the tribes.

Then it kind of becomes this wild, wow, wow, west shootout in the book of judges. And you have these spiritual leaders that God will rise up. And then, but the people keep going back. And so at the tail end of that, you get Eli, who was kind of the last of that crude, really, because Samuel's almost like an outlier, right? Because he doesn't quite fit it. And John, like, you made the point that he's not really the guy, anybody, we thought it was going to be his sons. So he's like the transition guy from this judge, prophet, man of God, who points everybody back to a king,

which we establish that God says is a bad idea. In fact, I don't think we read it last time or talked about it, but, he mentioned this way back in Deuteronomy 17. He was like, you're going to do this, but it's going to be a bad idea. So even back in Moses' day, they were saying, don't do the king thing. And so, but what happens is he's anointed anyway. And we talked about that. So 1st Samuel 1 through 4 was Eli and his sons.

And then you had Hannah and Samuel, and you kind of saw this fruitlessness versus faithfulness. Then we get to 1 Samuel 5 through 12, which is the last podcast we talked about. and that was Samuel now, who is the leader, but then his sons kind of create the same problem. And this creates this rise of this young man named Saul, who really never wanted the job, but because he looked like Christian. And, you know, he was a decent guy that everybody loved. They thought, you know, this is the guy. But he didn't really want it.

I think he kind of knew it wasn't for him. But then when he gets it, he seems to start making, as we'll talk about today, every decision, everything he says this has to be done, he's doing the wrong thing. It's like every time he has a choice between let me do it this way or this way, he seems to always choose the wrong path. I mean, it kind of marks it. So that kind of sets us up. We're in first Samuel 13 through 18 in this segment, and it's called Saul's rivalry with David. So that's kind of where we are, Zach. You guys ever had a, go ahead? No, you got it where you're saying?

No, I was just saying, I think something cool. And I've even seen, I've even seen. seeing it so far throughout Genesis, Exodus, and even so far in this course with David, but I love, something that I love about how Dr. Jackson teaches the courses, he provides the viewpoints, right? And he always leaves another opinion on the table for you to, you know, if you disagree with him on that. So he'll always say, this is what I think, and he'll have this explanation. Then he'll say, you know, but I'm going to leave it on the table to or if you disagree with me. And I think that's cool because most of the time, most lectures people give or most, most,

thoughts that people have, you know, they usually want, they usually want you to think that what they're saying is they're quite the way. But I think it's cool and refreshing how, you know, he gives his opinion, but then he also provides another possible explanation that you can, you know, if you want to explore more into this other way of thinking, he kind of opens the door for that, too. And he really did that for, in four and five. Well, and you're right. He says it, like you just quoted him, in a kind of scholarly way, you know, this is out there on the table. We say it in a Redneck Way on the other Unashamed podcast, I could be wrong. But I doubt it, but I could be wrong.

He usually doesn't follow it with, but I doubt it. Well, Jay said to that part, her dad did for Jays, but yeah, yeah, yeah. That was funny. Could be wrong, but I doubt it. But I doubt it. That's exactly right. Well, I think about this like Saul here, because it is interesting that at first he's so reluctant to assume the role of king, and then later on in the story, he's like,

holding on to it with all of the strength, even though he knows that he's going to lose it because he's already been told that. But he's still like, even with that, he's like, no, I got to hold on to this. And I was wondering, I wonder what you guys think is the psychology behind what's going on here with Saul. Why all of a sudden does he want to keep it when at the beginning he's like, I don't even know if I want this. Well, I'll say one thing, just in a practical sense, because I think you see the same thing today, even though we're in a completely different, you know, role of government and our system that we're in the U.S., because we're still new, you know, 250 years not very long.

But I just remember something Bobby Jindal told me years ago. Bobby was a representative in House representatives for two years, and then that was it. And then he came back to Louisiana, still very young. He was in his 20s at this point, winds up being governor, and then later runs for president. And so he became a friend of our family. So I was having a conversation with Bobby and I was like, well, why didn't you only serve one term in the house? You know, I mean, then you come back and run for governor. It's not like, because he's brilliant.

So he could have been in business, made money, whatever. He said, Al, when I got there, he said, I was so wide-eyed and just thought, man, what an opportunity. I'm in my 20s. And I'm representing the people of Metry and Louisiana. And he said, but, I mean, I wasn't there hardly anytime. And I started feeling the trappings of power. And the way everybody was treating me different and the way that people ushered you into a room with all these ideas. And he said, the way he put it was, he said, I could feel my soul being pulled from my body is the way he put it.

And I thought it was interesting. And Zach is that quote about absolute power, you know, and that it corrupts. Yeah. It corrupts absolutely. And so he said, I felt it in two years. If I stayed in D.C. any longer, it might affect me in a negative way. And so I think maybe that's some of what's happening with us all, maybe just like anybody else, you're kind of reluctant when you go in. But the minute people start being, yes, sir, no, sir.

and you don't say anything wrong and everybody's just running around, you know, doing everything for you, that it's easy to start thinking you're a big deal. And so maybe that was part of it. You know, maybe it's just the trappings of power that people, you see across the span of human history

that it seems to draw people in. Once they get in power, the last thing they want to do is lose that power. I mean, and there's some people in D.C. now that have been hanging on. They've been in the House of Representatives for 50 years. Yeah. You know? And that was supposed to be a,

that was all set up by the founders to be a temporary setting where you served, not where you went in and made millions of dollars. So I kind of get it from that perspective and just about the idea of power. And that may not be everything with Saul, but I think that certainly has to be some of it. Just as an observation. That could be wrong. But I doubt.

I doubt. I totally thought the same thing about Saul. I feel like he, first, he didn't do anything to deserve being in power as king. He just got chosen. from his perspective, totally randomly. Like, he just happened to be there and became king.

But then as the time went on, he started to feel like, oh, I think I deserve this. And we kind of talked about this a little bit when the episode ended last time. I feel like Saul, he plays the stereotype every single time. He's like reluctant. But then because he's trying to do what his dad did, what he's told him to do was find the donkeys. And he got called in King. Then he wants to do what the people. want him to do. He wants to be the big guy in charge. He wants to win the wars. I think he is legitimately

trying to be a good king, and he's got it mixed up in his head that he deserves to be king because of who he is and not because God placed him there. Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's just fame too, right? I mean, you see a lot of famous people that kind of get thrust into the spotlight, and then their life just takes a complete turn and it ends up being a dumpster fire. And I think if you look at Saul, you know, he's a donkey heard it from Benjamin, and you look up and you're the king of Israel and you're beloved you know, worship you, you're loved, you're, you know, your wealth, you're living in this, you know, in this kingdom. And yeah, I think, I think part of that can blind you. Have you, have you all seen the House of David series on Prime?

I did see the first couple episodes, yes. I had not even heard about it to you all telling me recently. I very much want to try. But in the, in the show, and I don't know how much this is creative liberty or if there are hints of this inscription, I'm not really sure, but you kind of see Saul's wife kind of manipulate some things, at least that's kind of what the show articulates with, whether it's with a necromancer or with certain parts of the kingdom when Saul has these episodes, his wife sort of kind of distorts some of these things and almost like because she's hungry for the power, because she loves, you know, the, just kind of the prowess that kind of comes with that. So I don't know if that's, you know, part of it.

Obviously, there's creative liberties that you can take throughout scripture, but maybe that was part of Saul's demise was that maybe his wife had the, you know, the Jezebel spirit or something. And it could have been, or some of what happened to a lot of kings, including Solomon later, because of the volume of wives and everything that entails inside of trying to have a family and be normal, that that would be very difficult to do. Well, I mean, because at first he loved David. And I think even the way the story ends, you know, we'll find out later how it ends.

But he did love David. I mean, he had a real genuine affection for him because David was brought in initially to soothe kind of his depression or spirit, whatever was going on there with the harp and with his music. And so David's this musician. Then this is something Dr. Jackson brought up to just the role of David as musician and warrior, excuse me, which is, I think. think an important thing to see with David because he enters the scene as the musician.

But then what really turns, I think what turns Saul, one of the, is just straight up jealousy. I mean, we do do that from the scripture because what was the song that the women sang that David has struck down his, or Saul struck down his thousands and then David has 10,000. And so they're singing this as like celebratory. They're saying, look at how great our king is and his right-hand guy. Saul is hearing this and it's stirring in him that jealousy, which I think is like you kind of see this play out. He didn't want it. He didn't want the kingship. And then all of a sudden, whenever he saw that someone else was going to get it, then he wanted it more. And it kind of speaks

to human nature. Have you ever heard of a term called memetic desire? You ever heard that term? Mimetic desire. It's like a, it's an idea that we mimic what we do. desire is we're mimicking it. So when you see like y'all got little kids, you could take your kids and put them in a room and one of them is playing with a toy and they get sick of playing with it. I don't want to play this anymore. They throw it on the ground. But as soon as one of the other kids picks it up, what does that one kid do who threw it on the ground? They want it back. And it's that and then they start fighting over it. And so I think there's something that going on here with Saul. He's looking at, you know, what he had and he knows he's going to lose it. And all of a sudden it creates

this really incredible paranoia in him that he starts to do some really radical stuff to try to get David out the way. But as we're going to find out, you can't really thwart the will of God. The point that Dr. Jackson made to me that was interesting was because when you think about Saul becoming king, you just kind of view him as being the king of Israel and those things. But he made the point of when Saul became king, he really was taken on the role of being the priest, a prophet, and a military leader. And I hadn't heard anyone talk about that. I've just thought. thought about, you know, when you're the king of the people, you're kind of governing and those kind of things, but I haven't thought about it more so from the prophet and,

and preach kind of standpoint. Well, there's no doubt that played a big role. Remember, you can sign up to take this course for free, which is what we're doing at unashamed for Hillsdale.com. So you'll, you'll enjoy it taking it with us. No, I think you've, you've hit it. I think, you know, he had this experience, remember, because this, he's sort of overwhelmed by the spirit. with this, he called him a changed heart, I think, was the way it was framed in our reading. And so he has this, like, ecstatic experience, you know, this prophetic experience. And he loved it.

What he called it, ecstasy, right? Yeah, exactly. The translation, yeah. And who wouldn't, right? I mean, that's like a moment, you know, that you have. So he has this moment. So I think he's like unsure. I think he enjoyed that like anybody would, so he thought, was that one I'm supposed to be.

He messes up, of course, when he tries to step into the priesthood, which is something shouldn't have done, but he does it anyway because he's impatient. You know, remember he was waiting on Samuel. And so then it's like, ooh, that felt pretty good to do this. Well, he's supposed to be the king. And so I think there is some confusing thoughts he's having over what role he's supposed to play. And it's really interesting because later on when you get into Israel, and maybe partly because of Saul, I mean, God makes it very clear that you're not to mix those roles and that, you know, I've got my prophets to be my prophets. I've got my priesthood tribe to be that, and I've got my king to be my king.

And Jesus, ironically, becomes the one that pulls all those back into one headship again. But when you're the son of God, you can pull it off. When you're just one of us, you have a hard time figuring out what your role is supposed to be. So I think some of that confusion has led him to be a sort of conflicted, divided person. And I'm not so sure. I love the idea of wondering if it's outside influence or if it's, just like maybe he was just a quirky person who had troubles because obviously with this overcome by spirits and, you know, needing to be sued by music. I mean, so I had some issues.

I mean, he had some stuff going on. Yeah, he was a little bit, you know, I don't know, schizophrenic in some way. So I think that was part of it too. So I think all that fed into some of his issues that he was having. And like I said, some of it, I'm not even sure was totally his fault. It's just like he wasn't sure where to jump off. Well, there was that unauthorized sacrifice that he made. That was really his kind of first real significant act of disobedience that he was impatient on waiting on Samuel. And so he goes in and he circumvents the whole system.

And he's like, I'm just going to do this myself and I'm going to assume this role. And one of the points that Dr. Jackson brought out that I thought was very key to really our life too, is that what God seeks is obedience over sacrifice. And that's what he was missing the obedience part. And so he was looking at the end of it. I think, I just got to get the sacrifice in. But he was missing the big point, which is the obedience. And you know what it made me think of was later on, David,

after he commits a sin with Bashiba, one of the things that he says in Psalm 51 is that sacrifices and burnt offerings, you weren't pleased with that. otherwise I would have given you that, but a broken spirit and a contrite heart, oh, God, you will not despise. And I think that's what Saul, he didn't get that. He put the sacrifice over just straight up obedience.

And so really the demise of Saul, if you said if you were trying to locate it in one certain thing, it was just that. It was disobedience. Well, and then the other thing, then the second, you're right, the first mistake he made was that one. Then the second big mistake he makes is he was told by God to destroy these people because this was something he had promised way back in Genesis that the Amalekites were going to be wiped out. So now's the time he's going to do this.

And he chooses this moment. He plainly gets the word to solve. This is what you're supposed to do. And they don't do it. And they leave certain parts of themselves. They say later they're going to sacrifice them to God, you know, I guess on their timetable. and then when he's confronted about it by Samuel, remember what he does, he blames the troops.

He was immediately. Immediately. And you think about that. When we look at a leader, if we see a president that makes a bad call, and the first thing he started doing was blaming the military or blaming the opposition party, blaming somebody,

we would all look at that and lose, we would lose respect right off the bat. But if you have a guy to step up and say, guys, I blew it. I mean, I should have done this, this and this. Most people would say, now there's a guy I can follow. And so I see the same thing here. The troops, and you remember he made the other thing that wasn't even like one of his big mistakes, but it was a huge super bad decision when he had the, and Jackson brought this out, when he decides

the troops need to fast right in the middle of a war. In other words, don't eat while we're out here doing these long days of battle. And so, of course, everybody's famished. They're falling out. And his own son, like, find some honey. And it's like, oh, my gosh. He's just eating this. And, but the troops loved it because it was like, well, there's a guy I could follow

right there because he understands. His dad, not so much. Yeah. But then Saul doesn't, they figure out Jonathan and Saul doesn't follow up with it. Right. And I think that's the other thing that Saul doesn't do. I think I haven't made that note, too, about Saul. and just a key difference between Saul and David

is that David takes responsibility for his actions and Saul doesn't. And I've been reading this other book, talking about kind of like biblical manhood and just think about manhood general. And that's one of the, I think, the key things about becoming a man is taking responsibility for your actions. But Saul at every point blame someone else. Samuel because he didn't show up on time. He blames the troops because they didn't do it.

what he said. He blames the Jonathan because he was hungry. You know, he keeps passing on this blame instead of taking responsibility for his actions. Right. Samuel seemed like a funny guy to me when he's talking to Saul and he's like, what's this bleeding of sheep I hear in my ear? But I was, I was thinking about it from a human, like, whenever Samuel, because Dr. Jackson talked about this from like a literary perspective, when Samuel talking agag about the sword and, you know, you've made a woman barren. But I'm thinking about it from Saul, if Saul's just, you know, if they're all in this, this tent, this kind of whatever the setting looked like, and Samuel just walks up and just

hacks the dude to pieces. I wonder if Saul's like, uh, I wonder if Saul's like, wait, what Samuel? What just happened? Or if that was like a, if that was like a normal thing that that priests and prophets would have just slaughtered people like that. Well, if you look back, if you go back to the bug of judges, the answer is yes. I mean, they kind of did. And mainly because if God said it, it's very rated-off. It is rated-on. Oh, it is.

Well, I'm just thinking about if Saul's like, you know, standing there after this moment, and Samuel just takes that sword and just goes ham. I wonder if Saul was like just, whoa. Well, he had to have felt in some capacity just like I fail. Like, I just like completely circling back. Because you know when you're confronted with someone else's righteousness and it highlights your own lack of integrity. That's very convicting.

I mean, I've been in those situations where I've been, like, I've done the wrong thing, and I'm doing the wrong thing, and then somebody else comes in, and they're just, like, just filled with the spirit, and it's just convicting. You're just like, ah. So there's a little bit of you that's kind of like, for me, there's a little bit in me that's like, there's a jealousy, like a spiritual jealousy.

There's kind of like an unholy lament. But then I think there's also, if you yield and just admit and come to the end of yourself, then you can be like, Dave, and just like, oh, it's me. Yep, I'm that guy. And I repent. Like, that's, you have to make that transition, because if you don't, you're going to end up like Saul. And that was his progression. He even knew his demise was coming, but it didn't even matter. Like, he was so blinded by his own jealousies and his own quest to maintain power that, He couldn't even, I mean, it was like he knew the end was coming, but he's just like, he just hang on, hang on, just trying to hang on to the deal. And, and when we do that, I was thinking about

what he did it. He refused to kill Agag and also he refused to kill the, the, the, all the livestock. And so he kept, he hoarded him up for himself. And I thought, you know what story that reminds me of in the Exodus? The manna. that it's it's the same idea because why why would he not kill those animals because they're valuable I mean he took the choice livestock and he's I mean these are the best stakes in town like we're going to keep these we don't know why are we going to kill that that's a waste and so he's he's in his own rationality he's thinking then this is like wealth this is prosperity this is whatever it is like I'm not going to just get rid of that like we've done we've won we did God surely

he just wants us to defeat them they've been defeated everything's good we did we were supposed us to do. Now let's just keep this other stuff, these spoils for ourselves. And it's the same idea in the story of the Exodus of, well, I mean, let's hoard this man up. We don't want it to go to waste. So they're thinking rationally, the problem is they're not trusting in the provision of God. And they're thinking that they're the ones that are actually doing it when they're not. Which is why God told them to do it and not to do it. It was his wisdom. And that's exactly what he was thinking, Zach, because he even said, I mean, I'm going to give, I'm going to sacrifice some of this.

Like, we're going to have future sacrifice. This is going to be great, but that's not what God told him to do. I like the other little desperate movie does here, which, again, shows you, if you put all this together, you asked the question in the other earlier podcast, the composite of Saul. In other words, he starts out seeming like kind of a likable guy. He's concerned about what his dad thinks. But when this composite of his life begins to come together, you start thinking this guy. And it was when, you know, so he gets this major rebukes.

from Samuel. Remember, he just grabs his cloak, which is a big deal to Samuel. The mother's been dropping off the cloak. Remember, that's a big thing. And he grabs it in such desperation that he rips it. I mean, that's, you think about something. This plane was probably well made, but he's so desperate in trying to get, so don't leave me, that he holds on to Samuel, and he rips the cloak. And then in the moment, Samuel takes the profit roll, which is, again, just straight black and white, he said, because you rip that, the kingdom going to be ripped from me. I mean, just like that. It was just like, this is your problem. This moment is your problem. And so I think you're just starting to see those accrue, you know,

in Saul's life. And it just shows he's really a weak leader. I mean, that's, you know, it's a sad thing to say, but it's true. Yeah. I had a thought on just the course overall, and specifically talking about Samuel, I feel like reading this course like this and watching the course of Dr. Jackson really kind of brings these characters to life in a way that I've never really thought about them. I think growing up, I've read this and read it,

I don't want to say like more theologically, but very, more like literally, more like, oh, this is like history. And because of that, I've kind of glazed over some of the more spiritual aspects of it, and the more kind of like, the, for lack of a better word,

like God doing these like miracles kinds of things and thinking about what does that mean for the character what does that mean for you know the people and I think like on chapter 12 which he didn't really get into this chapter 12 when Samuel gets angry and he calls down the thunder and lightning that was just another thing I read that and thought that you got I saw should have a little more respect for Samuel and everyone all the other rides have got to be terrified of this guy Right. He's chopping people up. He's calling down thunder and lightning.

He's yelling everyone. He's in Azarite, so his hair's like down to the- His hair, like, Samuel is coming. It would be like you go forward in time and you see like the different stories like Elijah when the band of teenage, the teenage rebels come out and start calling it, Hey, baldy, hey, I like that bald head you got there. And all of a sudden he's just like, two bears, you know, and they come out of all the youth. And I was just like,

you know, that's another violent story. Stephen, Stephen Lang played David, I mean, I'm sorry, Samuel in the House of David, and his role is terrifying. I mean,

I thought he did an incredible job in that scene. It's unbelievable. I mean, it's like, because you think about these guys and you want to, you know, because here's a problem if you grew up in church.

This isn't a problem. It kind of is a problem. We had this felt boards. You know what I mean? And they would have the little cutout characters. This is back in the old days, guys. Y'all probably had like,

you tell us. I know what you're talking. I know what you're talking about. You just dated us. I mean, back in our day, we had the felt boards. It was like, you had to feel your way to these characters. Or whatever we teach the kids, it's like these cartoon characters almost. So you always see these guys as I've always thought of the prophets and, you know, these priests, a high priest, these are nice guys.

And then you, but then when you watch that episode where Samuel comes out and he calls that the thunderdown and he has the altercation with Saul, everything we're talking about here, and he goes in there with that sword and just, I mean, then you're like, whoa, this guy was like, this, this is like. That's what I'm saying. It's a scary guy. It's a different kind of deal. And Stephen Lane did a great job in that. But I think that that's what's going on here is, but I think Saul's got to be on some

level really intimidated by Samuel because Samuel is the prophet. And so he is the guy that's supposed to tell the truth, no matter. what. And he does. And he lays it out there. And then the only is, he tell the truth, he, what's, what's interesting is, is that Saul tries to, to steal his role as priest. And, and, and, and, and in doing so, he abdicates his role as king. And so what he doesn't, he doesn't kill Agag, which he should have. And so then what ends up happening is now the, now the priest has to do what the king was supposed to do. So it's kind of a weird reversal of roles that, that Samuel actually, he righteously does finish the job,

but what Saul wouldn't do? And then Saul was impatient trying to do the job of the king, I mean, of the priest, when he should have just been doing the job of the king in the first place. Well, and your actions back it up, right? I mean, we had a, I won't name him, but we had a recent president that appeared to be very sickly and weak and not very strong.

And when he would come out and do a speech where he would just rail and talk about what he's going to do and we're going to stamp this out and you're watching and you're listening to it, even whether you followed his politics or not, it just didn't instill a lot of confidence, you know, that this guy was going to follow through. You know,

it just came across as kind of a ranting person. And I feel that way about Saul. Remember he came out real strong when he first came out and, I'm going to do this. We'll cut the animals to pieces and I'll send you this if you don't follow us. But then when we get into the weeds of his leadership, not really. You know,

we're just not feeling that. And I think his troops didn't feel that way. own children didn't feel that way. I mean, his children sided with David over him. I mean, if that doesn't tell you anything about his leadership and his ability to lead, that should do it. Don't forget to sign up to take the course for free with us at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. After Saul's disobedience, you go straight from Samuel, Innoitin, David, and then from there, David and Goliath, if we want to jump on over to the next portion. Yeah, for sure. So then you got Goliath, which he didn't get into this, but I've always...

found that interesting Michael Heiser's connection of Goliath to the Nephulam and Genesis 6 that he was left over when they, he didn't bring this up, but I just wanted to mention it because I thought was fascinating when I was reading his book. I can't remember the name of it now, but you know, he talked about how when Joshua went in, well initially whenever, whenever Moses sent his spies in to look at the Canaanites, they were like, oh, we can't, we can't defeat him because they're giants. And, um, and so, John, Joshua comes back in and finishes the job, but the only place he didn't go was this area where the Philistines are. And so Goliath is thought to be kind of like this leftover part of the

Nephilim. Some genetics there, yeah, they probably... Yeah, some genetics there. So you're even seeing, like, in this, you're seeing like, God's a redemptive plan being played out through the Davidic line. And David shows up on the scene. And, yeah, he's a little shepherd boy now. but he's also, as Dr. Jackson brought up, he kills lions for a living too. Yeah, that line of, I killed lions and bears was a big line, and Dr. Jackson really highlighted that.

He wasn't, he had a way of presenting himself as less fierce than he really was, but unlike Saul, that's the way you want to do it. You want to underplay it at the front, and then all of a sudden the back end is going to whip you. And that's exactly the kind of way David approached it.

He was the opposite way. Before we get to the Goli story, because it's so fascinating, I do want to say something about the anointing, you know, part of the thing that Samuel continues to do the same thing, remember he recognizes the bigger, older, you know, oldest son and says, oh, this has got to be the guy. He's making the same mistake that did before. He's looking at the guy on the outside. And then, of course, remember, God tells him, he says, I don't look at the appearance

of the man. I look at the heart that's inside. And so then David, do you think about it, he didn't even get invited to the screening. You know, he's still out doing the, because, I mean, I guess Jesse was just saying, we're not bringing the run in because there's no way he's going to get picked. And that was God's guy all along. It's kind of like Cinderella. That's exactly right.

She wouldn't even at the ball. You know, or she didn't get invited to the ball. But then she shows up and it's always, yeah, but that is the way that, it seems like that seems to be the story of God's people. It's never the guy you think. What's interesting is, so he gets anointed. which is a secret anointing. The only people in Israel that know that he's been anointing. And I'm assuming they're kind of sworn to secrecy is Jesse, David's brothers, and David.

And that's it. Nobody else really knows. But, you know, the Spirit of God then comes on David. He knows something's at when the Spirit of God comes on him. The Spirit of God leaves Saul. Yeah. And then we start seeing all of Saul's problems, his personal problems and everything else. So that is interesting that it doesn't mean it has to be that way,

but God did it where he sent his spirit to be on David, and his spirit leaves Saul, which now imagine, at least with all of his problems, he had the Spirit of God on him. Now he doesn't even have that, which is why I think the wheels come off. So that gets us to this point of the story about Goliath.

And I've always loved the story because it's like they're having this big showdown, and you've seen movies before everybody's lined up, and then they're kind of like this, what do they call it, the Battle of Conquest. You just, you put one out and we'll put our guy out. And then whoever wins, we'll just go home. Yeah. The movie Troy.

Exactly. There's no sense that everybody died here. Let's just put somebody out. So they put out this former Nephilim, I guess, almost 10-foot guy. It's like, well, here's our guy. And everybody is, there's like, I mean, everybody's looking around. I mean, because Saul was a big dude, but this guy, like, way bigger than he was. Exactly.

Saul's the biggest guy in Israel, but I mean, he's like the big guy. He's the big man on campus. And then their big man comes out and Saul's like, uh-oh. I don't want to go to that. But then the guy's like, so the Goliath is like a tauner though, right? Because he's coming out every day. He's like, well, none of these dogs from Israel ever come up. And he's just insulting.

I thought you guys are supposed to be this, that and the other. So, you know, you see these taunts that are going. And it's so funny because David, who is just a courier, he's door dash for the truth, for his brothers. He's just bringing in some, you know, new fruits and vegetables and some sheep, you know, wool from the field. He's door dashing. He's door dashing up to the thing. And he hears this.

And he is totally offended. He's like, what? He's saying, what? And so, like, he's going to all these people's that. And then they're, remember the brother's like, why don't you go back and tend to your sheet? Let the real men stand here and take the insults. Yeah. One of my favorite parts about the story is when, you know, David's like, so what will be done for the man who?

Just curious, before I come out there, I'm just curious, what is he getting? Didn't I hear that something about the king's wife, I don't know, I'm with the king's daughter, something about that. Well, it's funny, because I think David's brothers at this point, they know he's king, they know he's been anointed. Right. And they've got to be like, oh, here comes the king, here comes a little king, come bringing us our food. And then David kills the Goliath, and they've got to be like, oh, no, he was, Samuel was right. This is it. This is happening.

If there was ever the true litmus test, even if Dr. Jay was right, that there was more ferocity than David than we thought, he did go out there unarmored. And we know he wasn't very big because we kind of get that picture from First Samuel 16. So he's not a big guy. And he goes out there as the little guy, which that's the sports reference, you know, David and Gly. But and then he just says the key words. And you remember his first words. Who is this person that's going to insult my God?

And then he's like, no, the battle belongs to the Lord. And that becomes the battle cry for what happens. And I mean, a lot of people have said, you know, why did he pick five stones? And, you know, when it only took one to do it. But I think any warrior would understand that in case I missed that first time, you know. And he was doing Ropa Dope too. Y'all are too young to remember, maybe even Zach is. But when I was younger, Muhammad Ali was like the big boxing icon in the 70s.

and he invented something called the rope-a-dope. And, you know, most time just two big guys got there and slugged it out in the middle until somebody had knocked the other one out. But Ali comes along, and he was a very good athlete, and he trained to, he would go ahead, stick-jab, stick-jab, and then back away. And so he would tire these big lumbering guys out,

and then he would beat them on points or every once in why he'd knock one out. But that's exactly what Jackson was saying. That's what Dave was doing. Right. He was doing the roepadop. He was just going to run around in circles. He never was going to go.

grapple with this giant guy. And then when he got a, when he got a rock in there, that was it. But he only needed one. Yeah. But David didn't know he needed one. Exactly. That's it. He came in with a plan.

He came in with a plan. He knew God was going to help him, but he saw the plan. He was underestimated. You said he was a door-dash cow, which they call those dashers. Did you know that? They called Door-Dash people dashers? I think it fits perfect. I think you got a future if this podcast thing,

doesn't work out. Never, never underestimate a dasher. I mean, clearly David's showing up as a dasher, like you said. That's true. I thought maybe the best point we've made on this podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Zach would show up to bring someone meat and cheese and the guy's like,

bro, just giving my food. Zach's like telling him. Hey, dude, I'm a warrior, man. I'm ready. I'm ready to roll. You want to roll? Get the slingshot out. Let's go.

And on a theological sense, though, not physically. in a mental capacity. No, physically. I go physically to say, I'm a warrior. You wanted to say you to be a warrior, but truthfully, I mean, like, I think any of us would be extremely intimidated in this, but one of the points that Dr. Jackson brought up

that I think will play out later in the story is that David does have an anticipation that he's going to be the guy because he was anointed. So I think that was an interesting thought. Like, he's not like just walking around like, oh, I don't know what's going to to happen to me. He knows his calling. He knows he's going to be the guy. So there is a level of

confidence in David, even the fact that he would go against Goliath. I think that that came from probably the way God prepared him as a young man, that he would allow him to kill, enable him to kill bears and lions. So he was, which that again is also in the show that we were talking about. So that's a part of his character. But also he's coming into this with confidence. And later when he, you know, when he's asked to kill, get the four skins of 100 Philistines. I mean, he's like, let's go. Oh, we're going to get in that next time. Yeah.

So one of the things that I was going to throw out there and see what you guys thought about it, I had always, because I've taught this text many times, and I was always not sure about the sequencing in chronological order. It never seemed quite right to me. It seemed like, you know, because I was like, how does Solomon not know who he is? And he's playing music for him and all this. And Dr. Jackson helped me with the possibility. And he just threw it out there as a maybe, you know, because this is one of those.

I'm sure that's debated between scholars, that they're just showing the two sides of David. I mean, one is like his musician side, his ability to be in the palace, to be there with Saul. And then the other one to show this fierce warrior. But if you think about it, it would probably make more sense because David is still a shepherd. You still don't know anything much about him.

And he shows up in this moment, which is a happenstance, DoorDash moment. And then he does this because remember Saul says, now who does this one belong to? Well, he wouldn't have said that if he had already. known who he was. I mean, and I always struggle with that. I thought, that doesn't make sense. But if it's put there, not necessarily in chronological order, but just in a picture of the two things, I think now, and this is just my opinion, that could be wrong, that this was the

introduction. In other words, and Saul didn't, I mean, other than trying to get him his armor, he just is watching like everybody else. And all of a sudden, it happens, and everybody goes nuts. And one of the things we didn't get into in the story, Dr. Jackson didn't touch it, but he cuts his head off, Golias. And imagine, this guy's got a big old head. And then he carries it around with him for about a month. Yeah. By the way. I mean, just to show you, I mean, he's literally here where he goes, like, yeah, see what about this guy? And so, like, there's something about David that lets you know right there. He's, he's cut out a little different cloth. Yeah, it's like, what's going on, man? Nothing. I'm just carrying around a giant's head. I got a giant sword and a giant head to go with it. I bet it stunk, too.

Oh, you know, it did. And so I think that was that help kind of clear that up in my mind. Yeah. That that was probably how he bounced on the scene. And then somebody probably said, oh, you know, he plays a mean liar. You know. At some point later in the story, he uses that sword too, doesn't he? He does.

Yeah. It shows up at knob. He's so sad. Goliath can't be a giant and have this sword. And David, I always feel like David's like a scrawny. But I'm like, to wield the sword, you got to be. You have to have some sort of physical stature. Yes, I think David was more scrappy and more well-prepared for the situation.

He was cut up. All dashers are cut and cut off. You're a dasher. You got to be ripped. I mean, that's part of it. It's part of the calling. All I did is have to enter DoorDash and that's it. You just made the podcast say, well, look, guys, we're running out of time here.

But I definitely want to invite you guys to join up. Take the course free with us. We're in the story of David right now. They have a lot of other courses, too. You go to Unashamefor Hillsdale.com. That's Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. Take this course, David, with us. And again, you can also check out the ones we've already done,

which were Genesis, Exodus. They got a bunch of others, too. All right, one more point I want to bring out before we wrap it up, Zach, is that I thought the most powerful close of this lesson, and again, Dr. Jay made the point, that Saul still had the opportunity up until this point to do,

what was right, you know, because now as the story advances, because now we're going to get next time into chapter 18, and we're going to see this thing really fall apart in terms of, to the point where Saul's running around trying to kill him in the palace. And it creates all this riff between Jonathan, who is Saul's son and David. And then even Saul unseemly uses his daughter in a political way to try to destroy David. But he has the opportunity at any point to embrace the will of God. It's very obvious. that David has something special. And Saul even recognizes it.

But he just, he won't do it. And this whole thing we've been talking about, I think two words come to my faithfulness because this thing goes back with Hannah. I remember even the tearing of the cloak, he tore the cloak of faithfulness out of his own desperation. And because that's what that cloak represented to Samuel, how faithful his mom was,

for him to even be on the earth. And so I think faithfulness and the other one's repentance. When you mess up, you've got to be willing to say, I screwed up. And that's the thing too, because Dr. Jackson did say after, you know, when Samuel confronts him, Saul does seem like he repents, but there's no actual heart change. Exactly. So Dr. Jackson's kind of making that point of there's just mere words that you're saying,

but then there's actually a heart posture, which you see. And David, like Zach talked about with Psalm 51, like there's repentance that's mainly just mere words, and you're sorry, but there's no actual heart change in it. And I think that's the difference between Saul and David is that when David's repentant, intent, there's actually a heart change with it, and there's actually remorse, which we get into next time in the lecture. Yeah, so the next lesson will be 1 Samuel 18 through 2nd Samuel 1. So if you want to read ahead, we're calling it, Dr. Jackson calls it the tragedy of Saul.

And we are. We'll see the bitter end. Yeah. It'd be lecture 5 if you're travel. Is that right? Yeah, lecture 5. So that's it. We'll see you next week, and we'll continue to this great story.

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