Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1232 | Jase & Lisa Harper Open Up About the Adoption Heartbreak No One Talks About

Episode Date: December 18, 2025

Jase, Al, and Zach are joined by bestselling author and podcaster Lisa Harper for one of the most emotionally honest conversations ever about lifelong shame, feelings of inadequacy, and adoption highs and lows. Lisa opens up about the heartbreak and long waiting that marked her adoption journey and the exhausting habit of performing spiritually instead of resting in God’s presence. Tears flow as Zach and Jase share their own adoption experiences and rejoice in the reflection of God’s nature through it all.  In this episode: Luke 13, verses 10–17; John 4, verses 1–42; James 1, verse 17; James 1, verse 27; Ephesians 5, verses 22–33; Malachi 2, verses 13–16; John 17, verses 1–26 Chapters: 00:00-07:34 Lisa Harper could have been a comedian 07:35-14:40 How Lisa found Jesus & her ministry 14:41-22:28 Trusting God at your lowest point in life 22:29-28:53 God values presence over performance 28:54-40:40 The Bible as a love letter to us 40:41-47:20 Am I good enough to be a parent? 47:21-56:18 The joy & heartbreak of being an adoptive parent — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed, still on our Nashville, Nashville Barnstorming. Nashville. Yeah. And it's really interesting because we had a country singer on, which there's a lot of country singers in Nashville. We had a comedian on, there's a lot of comedians in Nashville, and today a Bible scholar. Scholars are very gracious. How many Bible scholars are there in Nashville? You're very scholarly, Lisa. It sounds appropriate after a singer and a comedian.

Yeah. So Lisa Harper is joining us on the podcast. And one thing I'm already liking you, Lisa, because I'm looking at that Bible, and that's screaming of my dad. Oh, wow. Because his was not quite as many stickies as you have, but definitely the wornness and the writing and all the things. And you said, this is special because your dad.

Yeah, my dad wrote in it before he passed. And my dad was, he was a many-layered man, you know, pretty rough, early start. And then so much repentance. Yeah, myself too. Yeah. So much repentance later in his life. And he was a real gruff. He was kind of a miniature John Wayne.

So he didn't use a lot of words, but my dad knew the word of God. And so the latter half of his life was so amazing. And I just, I don't know, he wrote in this right before he died. And I just, it's kind of a security blanket. Wow. Well, the first time I ever heard of you, we were up for the KLAB podcast of the year. award together. And I just want you to know, I voted for you. I voted for y'all. I just want you to know. I thought you were way better than us. We must have eaten out the victory. You know, I adore Sadie.

I would follow Sadie across cut glass. But I was like, if there's a Robertson in it, I just need to come and serve coffee. So we were humbled by that. Don't you get tickled at the K-Lof Fad Edwards? I always say it's like Christian prom. It is. It is. Because some people take themselves real seriously. Oh, yeah. I'm like, y'all, this is Christian prom. Yeah, come on. But it's fun. We always go to Waffle House. I actually was at Caleb yesterday because my other son, his fiancé, works there. Oh, really?

And we wanted to surprise her for her birthday. And so we get there. We have flowers and a card. And well, now, everywhere, there's so much security. You know, and I walk in and I thought, it's Caleb. I've been on your show. Well, the security guy. I want a warrant here.

No, they don't play. He did not recognize me. And he's like, I was like, no, I was on your. I want an award. I was like, I'm going to make this happen, and he's like, you're not going anywhere. So that was embarrassing. But then just randomly, here she comes, like she was leaving for the day. Lisa, you could get in that.

I actually came from K-Love here. That's where we record our podcast. I think that's the only reason we ever get up with y'all on the award show is my guest. But they're great, great people. We loved watching that building, as you, they were based in California, and they moved to Nashville or Franklin. And so watching it being built right next to Dave Ramsey, you're kind of like there's a little bit of the city on the hill.

Oh, it's so nice. Yeah, and they're nice people. They are the nicest people. No, they really were. It was a positive story. And now the guys doing this job. But, I mean, Jason, it happens to me every time. If they don't meet me down there.

I mean, and I feel like I really do feel like somebody's going to come and handcuff me. They're very serious about security there. I think it was escalated just based on the way I love. Of course, we were laughing because the award show is really just a fantastic Christian concert because everybody's performing these great songs. And we loved it. We had a blast. And then so go back to watch the show to see our part when we win and go on stage.

And they had us all lump together with like six other things. And like in the award show, we're like, five seconds. Jason and Missy say a little thing. And what's all of it. Shannon Bream. It's always so condensed. Which makes sense. I mean, do you want to watch Brandon Lake from us?

Yeah, yeah. And so I'm like, Shannon Bream, who I adore. Because I'm like, who are you going to do? Focus on me or Shannon Bream. I'm so sure. And so I always try to like back off the camera because I know who they really want to shoot. The first year I went, I'd, you know, because I thought, it was kind of a big deal. You and my mom will see it.

And so I bought these real boozy pants. And I didn't think of it until the night before that I didn't have them hemmed. And I know you have a pair of these are gluter pants. And so. You know what that is? Luter pants. I really don't. Kind of camo in a boozy kind of way.

But they're really heavy. And I thought, I don't have time to get these hemmed. So I had guerrilla tape. So I just duct taped the bottom. You know, I'm single and old. So I've got reciprocated pants. I do have duct tape pants. Yeah, I know you've got duct tape pants.

So I duct tape my pants while I'm presenting with Shannon Bream, who's just so godly, so classy. And my pants, they're probably five pounds at the bottom. And you're like, who is the chair? With guerrilla tape on her pants, I'm like, it's just me. Bible teacher, just me. So people get me confused with Lisa Welchel anyway all the time who's on Facts of Life. Yeah. I had women stand in line this weekend at a women's conference, and they were like,

I had such a hard time in high school, but I would come home and I would watch your show and I'd be okay. And I always think, do I tell them? Because they just waited where I'm not. Because they're having a moment. Yeah, and I thinking they might be still a little mentally two sandwiches sort of picnic, So I'm not sure whether to say I'm not that least and disappoint him. I don't disappoint him.

Let it ride. You could actually be a comedian. I mean, we're funny. She was in West Monroe a couple weeks, or Monroe a couple weeks ago at Sadie's conference. And she was the keynote speaker. Okay. That how you all got hooked up on this?

I've actually, we've just met today, but I've watched her from afar. And then I got to hear you speak. And I was like, wow. And then watching you interact. need to get her on the podcast. I think she would be really, I think our audience would really like it. We could get into a really interesting Bible study. She loves Jesus and she's a little whacked. I like that. She said she didn't have a beard. Other than the beard you fit right. Yeah, I know that y'all know of, you know, it's later in life. You have no idea what you're going.

Tell us how this started for the people who were introducing you to. I mean, where did this, how just you. Yeah. Tell us how he came to the Lord. People look at me. They know me from Duck Dynasty. Right. They see my wife. And I know what thinking. How? Why? Why? What? Where? Your wife and I got to do some ministry together, and I just thought she hung the moon, so I was predisposed to like you, despite the camera. She's part of his ministry. He's part of her ministry. I know. He was kind of show and tell. Yeah, exactly. She was actually an evidence of God because some people need more help and God sent her. That's my whole story, Chase, my whole story. I grew up my parents' divorce, so I was really little.

five years old, my dad left. And so I was brought up in a Christian home, but not as south as Louisiana. I was past child, but not as southern. I grew up in central Florida. Well far. So did he. Just north of Orlando. Okay. I grew up in Gainesville. Oh, I used to work at a Christian camp, Lake Swan Camp, outside of Gainesville. Oh, yeah. I've been there before. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I have some great memories just seeing kids come to Christ at that camp. But after dad left, Mom had to move us to another church because a lot of women. women at our first church. We're disguising gossip as prayer request.

So she moved to the seven church. And I can still remember y'all like yesterday, the pastor's name was Brother Jimmy. And his message just happened to be how our heavenly father is a dad who doesn't walk away from his children. And I was so desperate to have a dad. I was devastated.

My dad left us. And you, when you're a little kid, I thought it must be at least partly my fault. You know, I should use my inside voice. I went through that with our whole thing. Yeah, you're like, what did I do wrong? Right. If I had just been better, I could have, and he left for another woman and her child.

So that, when you're a kid, you just think it does become a comparison thing. And so when he talked about dad, our Heavenly Father wouldn't leave their kids, I thought I've been praying for a dad like that. And I was five years, they didn't have children's church back then. I'm 62. So, you know, we sat on pews, those long wooden benches. there's no cup holders, no coffee in the lobby. And I'm holding on the back of the pew in front of me.

And it was one of the churches, and I love these churches, where they sing just as I am, you know, 52 times. So somebody comes forward and we're not stopping to. Somebody's got to come forward. But I was scared because I was just a kid. But the idea that God wouldn't walk away from me was so compelling that I walked in a I was a five-year-old kid and told Brother Jimmy, you know, I wanted to know Jesus because I wanted a dad who wouldn't walk away.

But during that same period of time, some men came and went from our family who were pretty abusive. So I got the whole, my heart is dirty, and I need Jesus conflated with, I'm dirty. So as best I understood as a five-year-old, I gave my heart to Jesus, but I lived, the story I identify with most in the Gospels is the woman who has been over for 13 years. Because even though I knew him as my savior, I just thought I've got to do better, be better. do better, be better. And I lived really bent thinking, if God pays attention, he's going to be really disappointed that he lowered the bar to let me into heaven. So I tried to be really good in high school, went to college, went into youth ministry after that. There was no youth ministry for women when I was coming through. There were a few outliers, but I thought, I'm going to have

to learn to cross-stitch, you know, or be a pastor's nothing to do or go to China. And so a youth job opened up here in Nashville, Tennessee. And so that's what brought me to Nashville. First time around, I thought I do not like grits, and I do not like country music. I'm going to be in trouble. And then the first time I saw all these kids in high school come to Christ, that was back in the day.

They would send me out with a paper map to high schools all over Tennessee, and my job was to get past the front office and talk them into letting me speak. And sometimes I just worm my way into the administrators. Can you imagine doing this today? And they'd be like, oh, yeah, we'll let the kids out of school. And they'd be like, hey, pw, whew, everybody you can leave class, you go to the gym, and the sorper's here.

And all the kids would come in at the first time I spoke. They were thinking they needed some Jesus right. Well, no, they wanted to get out of class. And so there'd be like 1,500 kids, and I'd be like, oh, my heavens to Betsy. And so the very, this is way TMI for Duck Dynasty. You don't have this much estrogen on this often, but I got so nervous because McGavoc High School,

school, just crazy, wonderful high school here in kind of urban Nashville, about 1,500 kids. And I thought, I have no idea what to start out with because they don't want to hear some Bible teacher. They wanted to get out of class. And so the only thing I could think was I need to start with a prayer. And while I pray, there was just one little microphone on the stage. While I pray, I just hope the Holy Spirit will give me something. I know I've got to start with a story.

was I started to pray. I didn't know this, but evidently when I get nervous, there's a major nerve up the back of my leg that starts to quake violently. So my backside was quivering. And I mean, it sounded like my whole voice was quivering like I was crying. Well, so the kids all stopped because they're like, who is this chick who's crying?

And I realized I've got about 30 seconds. And I had this crazy story being gored by a bull. So I went from where they thought I was crying to tell them the story of being attacked by a bull. How I segwayed in the gospel, I have no idea. But I just knew. The Holy Spirit. Just a second. I don't know if he wants credit for it.

But watching all these kids who had come to get out of Christ, kind of have an encounter with Jesus in the middle of the day, I thought, man, if I get to do this for the rest of my life, I'll walk to see people encounter the love of Jesus. So that's kind of how it started. but my heart was still performative. You know, I feel like he's been so kind to me because I walked bent for so long and the fact that Jesus has been so patient and really showed me, Lisa, it's relational. You don't have to earn my favor.

Holiness is about intimacy with me. Was there a specific time where you felt like you got released from that, that you cared, or has it just been over the course of time? Where you, like, stood up? Yeah, I mean, I really collapsed about 15 years ago. I just always been one of those, you know, pull yourself up at the bootstraps kind of girls. I'm super conservative in my theology, not so much of my sociology, because I didn't get married.

And at 40, I decided if I don't get a husband, I'm going to get a Harley Davidson. So you never been married? Never been married. But you got a Harley? Well, I had one. When I brought my daughter home from Haiti, she loved motorcycles, but we got runoff. off the road by some guys flying a rebel flag. They didn't think you should have a old white mama with a beautiful Haitian little girl.

And so we switched to a trike for a while. And then I just had this real, I just couldn't bring my baby on a bike for a while. I'll go back to them because there's something about if you grow up Baptist, the excuse to wear leather pants is epic. So we're born to Jetskeys now. Yeah, with a twitchy leg. I know. Jesus does not want credit for any of this.

I'm telling you right now, Zach's thinking about a movie about your life. We're a few minutes in here, and this is turning to a heavy movie. I'm not sure who the advertisers would be spanks. It'll be a movie. It's a movie. Well, what happened was I had been, and when I say successful, I'm using the term loosely, but I'd been able to kind of pull myself up by my bootstraps and just work hard at being a dutiful Christian for a long time. I'd been in vocational ministry.

I'd gone to seminary the first go-around, so I knew just enough Greek and Hebrew to hide behind it. I was just so afraid that somebody would look under the hood of my life and find me to be a fraud. And everything just kind of the bottom fell out. I was diagnosed with cancer. Ended up being not a big deal, but it presented real serious at first. I lost my dad, my stepfather,

and that was a real tough relationship. He came to Christ eight weeks before he died, but it was pretty, pretty, very, difficult relationship up to that. And then I lost another primary relationship. And I just had this doggone it. I feel like the three main kind of legs under the stool in my life have been knocked out from under me. And I just, I was kind of shocked to find myself not able to put one foot in front of the other anymore. And I could remember it like it was yesterday. I had this little cottage out in Leepers Fork, Tennessee, lived by myself. And I was on the floor. And I was on the floor.

And I've had too much shame to have healthy weakness up until that point. So I pretended, oh, no, I'm fine, I'm fine. God, you've got so much to do with Iraq. I'm fine, I'm fine. To actually be honest about Jesus, I can't carry the weight of my own life anymore. And I heard the Lord through Holy Spirit. I've never heard an audible voice, but his voice was unmistakable and so loud in that moment. And he said, Lisa, you've been running scared your whole life.

And so I'm going to take you to the basement, and I'm going to sit there with you in the dark until fear doesn't own you anymore. And he was so present. I think it's St. John, who calls it the Dark Night of the Soul. But his presence became so palpable. All the things I taught through the years. You know, it was in the Greek and the Hebrew that caused me to just actually collapse into the embrace of God. It was the, I believe, helped me in my unbelief. Yeah.

It was, I'm your front guard and your rear guard. It was bring everything to me. Don't curate your emotions. And there was about six months where I couldn't get out of bed without saying the name Jesus out loud. Yeah, come on. And then I'd kind of stumbled to the bathroom and I had, you know, passages laminated in the bathroom, passages laminated in the shower. And I was so foolish. I was embarrassed that I was so weak.

but God's presence was so, you know, it's always his compassion that leads to repentance. And so I'd say that, it wasn't a moment, it was a season. But it was in his mercy. He just, he kind of kicked what wasn't godly out from under me. And then I would collapse correctly. Because God, because he does love us so much, he could go all the way back to that five-year-old girl standing by that pew, knowing that heart and saying, now we're going to release, you know, these things that have been.

been there. At least and I had a similar experience in a counselor's office with an empty chair where there were some people that had harmed her and me and us and where we had to invite Jesus into our circle. Yes. And then let that go from what it's hold it had over us. And it was a season for us too of counsel. But it changed our lives. It changed our marriage. So I totally can relate to that. And you think crazy how the things that you could, you could talk about it, you could teach about it. You could exigent. Oh, I taught. and priest and yeah, all of it. But I emotionally, I think there was a corner of my heart that was agnostic.

It's like I believed I could quote the multislovak theological phrases, but this corner of my heart didn't. You know, I just didn't believe that he would be enough. And I was so afraid of the painful parts of my story. I thought, if I go back there, I'm going to drown. And he just so graciously took the things that's control for me. It's kind of a better rock of intimacy, though. He sees you in your, like the worst thing about you or what you perceive to be.

And then he's like, I'm present, which has kind of been weird about this podcast. I mean, we, I don't know how we started this. There wasn't really a clear objective to where we were going. I wasn't even involved. He was not. He was a guest that never left. I was a guest. That's a great guest.

Well, at first it was just Phil. And the fact, we had. The Blaze asked us, we did, we were on Blaze Network back. Oh, I watched off from the. And so Blaze asked dad to do a podcast. Well, dad had no idea what a podcast was. I had heard of it because my kid's literally did not know what a pod. What's a pod?

He declined. He said, absolutely not. Well, he actually told me, he's like, if you have a rod, I can cast that. He was like, I know what a ride cast. But I don't know what a podcast. He was that literal. He wasn't making a joke. He was like, I know what a podcast.

He said, where is the pod cast? He was out on the whole concept. So I waited like two weeks. I came back to him. I said, hey, Phil, what about, I got an idea. Why don't we do an internet Bible study? And anybody in the world? He goes, now you're talking, Dash.

Forget this pod stuff. It's podcast. Internet Bible study. That's what we need to be doing. So for as long as he was alive, we never told him it was a podcast. Well, me and my dad shared something in common that's bad. is at every turn where God was using our family, he would say, that'll never work.

And I would say, amen. To what he... But God was arranging these things. He was like, what? We're hunters. You're going to make a show about our family, and we're not going to hunt. He said, that'll never work.

And I, amen. You know, and even with the pie castle, nobody's going to watch a Bible study, which we were thinking more me and Phil, about reaching the world, like lost people. I was like, why would somebody turn something on and listen to something they don't agree with without, because I was more a relational person

at that stage of my life? But even the timing, because he said, well, how long, we sat down and do the first one? How long are we going to do this? And they said, well, they want 58 minutes. He said, 58 minutes. He said, if you ain't wrapped it up in 25 minutes, you ain't bringing it.

Exactly. He was thinking like a sermon. Well, we didn't have really a direction of the words of getting to the word. What's funny is we've done a lot and we've covered a lot of the Bible. And what's interesting is now it's become very clear that the centerpiece of the whole thing is what you're like what you experience. The presence of God being with man. And when you were describing that, I was thinking about, I was reading this book about Thomas Aquinas. I just made me cry when I read this because his work was like some of the.

most influential Christian work in history. And he got to the end of writing his most pivotal work. And so he's a super intellectual guy. I got to the end of it. And he said he had a vision, a beautiful vision of the Lord that just made all of his writings seem like straw. And it was like he was in that place you were talking about where he had gone into the depths of all the philosophy and theology, which is important.

But then he had this encounter with God that really shaped the rest of his life. And I thought, man, that's really what I think the Lord does, right? I do too. And I love to study. I have platonic crushes and all the old dead theologians. So I love reading those books too. And that common denominator, I think with all of them, Chalmers, you know, Spurgeon is there was this moment that they really did get to the end of themselves. And instead of it leading to ongoing despair, it's like it opened their eyes bigger to the compassion of God of, oh, even though I bring nothing to the table, you still put me at your right hand and I'm a co-air with Christ. It's like the gospel gets bigger. And I think, I mean, that certainly has happened for me. And the word, aren't y'all shocked by how many people who are on an elliptical or driving their car or in a coffee shop or making dinner will have y'all in their ear buds and they want authentic conversation about God? Yes. One of my other favorite dead guys, Francis Schaefer says,

biblical orthodoxy without compassion is surely the ugliest thing in the world. So I think what y'all do so well, it's the relational stuff that you're so great at with the biblical, and you have great biblical insight next to Jesus. But if we just do that linear and preach at people and they don't feel heard, it's a miss. And I think that's what changed for dad as we got into it, not really sure where we were going, is he figured out, because he just, you know, dad's just a bring-it-so guy, he's a John the Baptist. But he realized through community of conversation

and that we then became a place where we could talk about a lot of deep Bible and theology, but we could do it in a way that was common to us, which would be common to a lot of people. They would get that. Well, I think even fails life, because I said at his funeral, which I guess I just had the realization,

I think, when somebody dies, like as close as I was to my dad, I kind of looked back on his life and I thought, what was different than like Christians that you see that get comfortable? And I came up with this idea, because it was true, that he never lost the thrill of who Jesus is.

It's like he, now granted, he was going so far down the wrong road. It was such a moment. And even though it was bumpy, He found the declaration of Jesus and who he did and what he did. Just thrilling. And so thrilling to where if somebody got an earshot, he was like, let me sit down here, let me tell you.

And somehow another disarmed them. And they were like, oh, this is awesome. But here I am my life. When you told that story, I felt like I had to tell this. Because when I look back at our relationship, when my dad kicked us out of the house, You probably remember that. It's one of the few images that, now he's living like the devil. And he comes in and makes a declaration in his underwear holding a Budweiser saying,

y'all get out. Well, to a kid, I'm like, I was eight, maybe seven. You were younger. You were about five. Yeah, five or six. And I was about eight or nine. But, you know, that is one of the probably my last memories that I can go back. because I just remember in that, I thought.

There's a scene in the movie of it, and I cry every time. Oh, I cried when I saw it. Oh, yeah. Just because it was raining and in the movie it's raining. I mean, you'll just never forget that night. It was like your moment. It was a, I mean, even as a little kid, because I'm thinking this guy's got problems. You know, I have five years old, like something's wrong with it.

And then it's like, where you have to leave? Right. And so I remember that. But it does affect you, I think, when I look back on it, probably I don't realize how much it affected me, you know, but I was real shy and all that. So later, all the things we've talked about before, I've eventually come to Christ. I forgive my dad. We've become best friends.

And then I was doing what you were doing for the kind of the first two years of my Christian life. I just, it was all like, I'm going to try to be perfect. And just, but the more I studied, I was like, something's wrong with this idea. And I'm supposed to like share Jesus. But I didn't want to talk. And so a weird bunch of circumstances happened where a friend of my dad's asked me to come speak at this little school. And so here I am. The exact thing that you went through.

Well, my shake was in my hands. And I'm like, why are my hands shaking? Because he's like, just tell about your conversion. And every time I flipped a page in the Bible, my hands were shaking, I ripped it out. Oh, my goodness. And there was a gasp in the crowd because I'm now desiccated. It's like you're being a heritage. I'm decedrating the Bible.

He's just tearing his Bible. He went full Pentecost to. It was the worst experience, you know, of my faith journey because I was so embarrassed. I was nervous already. And I just, after it was over, I thought I'm never doing this again. Were you able to, like, get it together and, like, lay in the plane? I mean, I felt like I wasn't. But what happened was after it was over, and it wasn't 25 people.

I remember they were starting a school across the. the street from the church building. So it was 25 people and it was kids. And I was just barely older than they were. And one boy just kind of came up as I'm leaving and he thought, I think I want to follow Jesus. Well, that moment really, I thought, are you kidding? I mean, I thought this can't be real.

You thought you had made sure 25 people would never follow. I'm right, right, right. These people, I just validated that they never want to believe in God. And it's kind of a special moment in my life. And it kind of took me a while to appreciate that because I still didn't want to get up after that because it was a horrifying experience. But then slowly, even though your story, you know, was totally different.

And we kind of came to the same conclusion. The way I got over my fear of speaking is I would say this one sentence. it's not about me. Because I thought that was a terrible performance. And I thought, well, it wasn't about me. But it took so long to realize. It's like, why couldn't I just figure that out in like year two? Well, and it took me a long time to figure out.

People really don't want to see where you got it right. They want to see basically where you landed in a pit and God pulled you out. And he used to be the hero every story. And I think even if he gives you platform, the best, communicators. I mean, we just don't ever rob God of the glory. You tell stories, but they have to point to who Jesus is. And yeah, I still have train wrecks. I mean, massive train. And then I'll get tickled. I'm like, oh, well. Well, I think that's true. I mean, I think you grow in the faith. And I think back to the last event I did last weekend. And the crowd was so energetic.

And people hollering. And you know how usually people are scared of silence. or just, I just walked out there, I thought, these people aren't crazy. And I just kind of let it happen. Just, I wasn't saying anything, you know, and I thought, well, we've come a long way now that I'm thinking about it from when I'm ripping pages out of the Bible thinking, oh, what is this going to happen? Yeah, yesterday we had Brighton, Jason's daughter-in-law, who claims to be our number one listener right now. But she said exactly what you said. It's interesting. You said it because she was sitting in the same chair.

she said I thought for so many years I was so selfish because I thought I was the star of my story and she said it took me years to realize God was the star and he was just living it through me and it was just such a moment for her to realize so what what is like what is your favorite thing do you have like a favorite thing you like to teach is there a specific thing because you do this all over or do you or do you when you go in do you like they give you something or do you do your own thing How do you typically... It's kind of both and. I mean, sometimes I'll get, you know, we're in a series on Acts. Can you teach on Acts chapter 8? I'm like, ooh, I love... Because I kind of like an assignment, right? Yeah, I do too. I love that. And just because I'm old as dirt, I'm 62.

And I've spent, you know, I don't... I'm like your dad in that I have fallen more in love with Jesus the longer he's allowed me to walk with him. And one of my favorite living scholars, a mentor of mine, Dr. Korn. Craig Keener. He says, if you get out of the Bible, what you expect to get out of Bible, and you need to change your expectations because it's always bigger. It's always better. That's good. That's great. And you'll read something, John 4, the woman at the well, and you've read it a thousand times, you've heard it a thousand times. You've exegedededed the Greek. You filled in the blanks. But then you'll see a wrinkle and you'll go, oh, I didn't know the word he was using for worship as Prascanuho.

To move forward and to kiss. And she'd kissed all these frogs in a church for a prince. Jesus used a word that would have been so pertinent to her. And you'll see something that's fresh. So I really don't, every book I'm studying at the time becomes my favorite book. Even I didn't think I could ever, I mean, I didn't want to admit this with other Christians, but I never thought I could have a great fondness for Leviticus. I'd always burn out in Litticus when I did. There's been more dead in reading the Bibles than Leviticus.

It's like it's scabs and blood and all this stuff. But I mean, like last year, I found this story in Leviticus that made me fall in love with Leviticus. So if I get to open this love letter called the Bible, I'm not saying I'm effective teaching anywhere. But there's, to me, there's something redemptive on every page. I think what you're describing is this love for the word. because we talked John before in our first podcast.

Yeah, I was telling Lisa this before we came out. Well, now I'm a little embarrassed because I was still in this. Can we go back and delete those things? I'm still, and the reason me and Zach argue so much is because he's, he has a more philosophical speech. And you're familiar, you y'all can have a great conversation. Well, we like the, anybody who's quoting from Aquinas. I know. You said Schaefer too.

Yeah, I love that. He's one of my favorite. And he uses words. words that I've never heard. And I'm like, I'm thinking, well, all the simple-minded people out there, they just clicked, you know, something else, because whatever, you know, Zach will go on a two-minute thing. And I'm thinking, no, two minutes. Mine are usually 20. That's great wisdom. Well, he knows he can. I don't. I don't know. So I just say, hey, knock it off. We got it. We had a broad audience and some people love what I do. Some people love what they. That's what I hear all the time.

But she brought up that Leviticus, you know, there was some random verse. I'm doing a Bible study late at night and somehow I got to Leviticus and it was a verse I was reading about how they were they were not complaining but saying we're sacrificing they're telling we're sacrificing these animals like we're giving this something up and I think it's like Leviticus maybe Leviticus 18 but there's a saying that he says these are gifts from God and I read that And I thought, I found something in Leviticus that's fascinating. You're sitting here saying, look at what we're giving up. And he's like, I created those animals.

I'm considering those gifts. And it's just like, wow. And I think we tend to do that. We take a book and are scared to read it. Right. All of a sudden you see something from his perspective that's humbling and exciting. And if you recognize every single story hangs under the case. canopy of a good God.

Yeah. So we may not understand, you know, the, the so-historical context of the original author, original audience. But you go, it was redemptive for them. Yeah. When he set up the parameters in Deuteronomy around women not being able to be attacked by men in a culture where any woman over the age of 12 could be just, I mean, it was just horrible what happened.

And God said, no, if you're going to mess with one, you're going to mess with one. of my daughters, you marry her not to, you know, not to re-injure her, but because nobody else will marry her. She's considered damaged goods. So you're going to begin to repay what you've stolen. You give her daddy money. That's not a bribe. That she can't hold property. So you're going to make her financially independent. And so he begins to erect this redemptive fence around women at a time when culture didn't. Well, if you begin to get context, you're like, oh, my heavens, it's always good. Yeah.

Leviticus is an invitation to relationship. They thought the gods wanted to kill them. Yeah. And the God of Abraham says, no, I want you. Here's a way for you to be in relationship with me. And don't you find that when you read that and then you get to the book of John and start seeing how Jesus interacted with women, you just start listing. Yes.

All of a sudden, I mean, you're doing one of these. I do. Where people will read Ephesians 5 and it's like, well, I've met to your husband. And they're just like, oh, God, you know, he hates women. Right. He's the meeting. I'm like, if you read this thing and if you were a woman, you would run outside. Even divorce.

Divorce was originally set in to protect women. That's right. Because they were being put away and had no way to defend themselves. They married these pagan haughties and kicked their old Jewish wives to the curb. And he was like, no, there's got to be a way for them to be provided for them. I always think with Malachi or Malachi, if you have Italian in your background. You know, it's, it's, we've gotten that so out of context that God hates divorce people. I'm like, no, God hates divorce because of what it does to his people, loves his people.

But it's changed things for me because the performer in me wanted to get it right. And when you go, oh, yeah, if you'll think of the imperative of scripture where God says, this is what I want you to do, if I, I now, this is so simplistic, but I can hang on simple stuff. I'll misquote the dead guys. When I first brought my daughter home from Haiti, you know, we just did all kinds of things I'd never done before. I've never been a big bowler. Then I found out there's single guys in the bowling level.

Took Missy Bowling. And, you know, I'd never seen those velvet bumpers. And so I got the little velvet bumper, so she went and roll her ball in the gutter. And I was trying to explain the law to her. And we had a language deficit when I first brought her home from Haiti. So even language was hard. And I said, baby.

Do you remember those bumpers at bowling alley? And she's like, we, Mama Blonde. She called me White Mom at the beginning. We, Mama Blonde. And I said, remember how that kept your ball from going in gutter? And she's like, yes, ma'am. And I said, well, that's when God gives us the law. It's not God giving us the law.

He's not going to beat us over the head with the Bible. It's velvet bumpers. It's so that we'll keep walking the way he's prescribed for us. And it's for our good. But I'm always reteaching myself because I, apart from whole, Spirit, I go to a critical spirit. And it's old shame patterns. So I feel like I was just telling you before we came on. I've had to unlearn. I think more than I've learned in the last 15 or 20 years. We would all agree. So you got to tell us more about your daughter. Can you tell us more about

because like I'm intrigued now. Because I went to Haiti after the earthquake in 2009. And we were there for about a month and just trying to help and do what we could do. But I've loved the folks from there ever since just because of the hearts I saw. Haitians are amazing. Oh, they're amazing. So how did this... We were in Port-Prince and Cap-Hasian. Yeah, yeah.

We went to both of those. Missy's from her little villages. If you know Haiti, it's kind of down here. I had gone to a women's conference and you know, y'all don't do it in y'all's conferences, but we have breakout sessions. Yeah, we don't like that. Yeah, that's way too personal. Y'all get to hunt and fish and eat and we have to go take more notes with somebody with

a quilted Bible cover, but I'd gone to a breakout session, and it was on missions. So I thought it was going to be in short term missions that I love. And this eddy-bitty blonde girl gets up. And she quotes from James and says, if you're a Christ follower, it's incumbent upon us to take care of widows and orphans. And then usually we, just like when you see money in the Bible and you go, or time and tithing. And I'm like, no Jesus is actually talking about money there. And she kind of pulled one of those. And she said, there's 140 million orphans in the world as we know it today. And she said, the scripture is really clear. what are you doing about it?

And I'm sitting in this, you know, beautiful church. We've all got, you know, crop pants and got all our stuff together. And I thought, oh, snap. And I thought, what am I doing about this? And I thought, well, I'm in my mid-40s. I'm really committed to the Word of God. I'm not sure as a single woman. I'm even allowed.

I don't know what the theology is around there. Where's the book chapter verse on that, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, what if I offend people, which is, tend to be an equal. opportunity offender. But I just really begin to pray. I'm just not that smart about direct applications. So you know how God will convict you, but I go, I need some, I need community to help me know how to walk this out practically. And so I asked some girls in a small group that I was in at church. I said, I don't know what I'm supposed to do, but I feel like God has really prompted me over

the issue of orphans. So I don't know if I'm supposed to go to Haiti or if I'm supposed to give more of my offering money. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do, but I know it's something. And three of them basically said, we've got your back, we'll pray with you. And another one said, when you have time later on this week, I'd love to process this with you further. She's from church. You know, I was like, sure, so we met for coffee.

And after a little small talk, she quoted a verse. It's always crazy to me. People can take one verse out of the Bible and take it so far out of context. And she said, the Bible says that the wounds of it. of the friend are better than the kiss of an enemy. So I want to be a friend to you. She said, I don't know if you're even thinking about adoption, but you've told us in small group about how there was abuse in your backstory. She said, so I think you've sabotaged your shot at parenthood. So she said, I don't think you should adopt a child, but I know you want to nurture

something. So my encouragement would be for you to go to the Nashville Humane Society and adopt a dog because you're really good with pets. And y'all, I just remember going, and I printed out an adoption application, but I already thought I wasn't good enough, you know, being single. And I already thought it's just there's this Holy Spirit was saying, well, there's a lot of kids that will never have a mom and a dad. You're in a country. You're seeing the condition.

Those kids, it's better. But I was so, I just didn't have the wisdom to go. This woman's a crooked little tree. Yeah. And she's not bearing good for you. And I need to be respectful, but I don't need to hear. heed what's falling out of her mouth because God doesn't use shame as a motivational tool. And so I took the adoption application, put it in the back of my file drawer, and for seven

years I didn't do anything. Wow. And in his mercy, seven years later, he brought it back around. Come on. And I lost two adoptions, one at the 11th hour that just broke my heart. I got written into a story of a precious little girl who was a crack addict and gotten pregnant. spent Christmas that year in a crack house. And I was bringing that baby home. And it just fell apart at the 11th hour. And right after I lost that, two weeks after I lost that baby, I got a phone

call from a friend that I hadn't seen in years. And she had heard through the Nashville grapevine that I'd lost this baby at the 11th hour. And she said, Lisa, I don't even know if you have the bandwidth to pray about this, but I just got home from Haiti. And she was not on an adoption trip. She was there trying to help build a commercial kitchen to feed the kids in this village. But she said, while I was there, one of the young mamas died of AIDS and left behind this baby girl. And she's really, really sick. And she said, I was in the hospital when the doctor came out and there's nobody in that family to care for this little girl. And she said, while I was sitting there, and the doctor said, do y'all know anybody in a first world country? Because this child's going to

need some pretty serious medical intervention. He'd be willing to step into this story. And the story because she may not ever make it out of Haiti and she's not even in a crash yet. And this friend of mine, I'm not trying to be silly, but this particular friend of mine is in a very, a church where you sit on your hands. She's not given signs and wonders. I'm kind of Baptist Costa. She's not quite as wiggly as I am. But she said as I was sitting there, and again, she was just there for three days.

She was with the people who drove the woman at the hospital. she said the Lord just as clear as a bell in that ER room in Porter-Print said Lisa Harper is supposed to be that little girl's mama. And she said, Lisa, I'm not trying to strong-arm you, but I would be disobedient if I didn't tell you what had happened and are you willing to pray about this? And I said, nope. I said, I've been praying about this for 30 years. And I said, sign me up.

And y'all, I got off the phone and I said a word that's not in the Bible. because I was just hit by that, oh, golly, jeepers. Yeah, this is way beyond my capacity. I mean, I don't know how to do this, and my heart is already, you know, just ground up hamburger or venison. I don't know how to step in this little girl's story, but I think because I had been so crushed

in that second adoption loss, it's like it's crazy how God used that what I would have thought is pain to really prepare me to go. I know what loss feels like now. And that baby deserves somebody to be advocating for, even if I never get to be a real mama. And so, Missy's 16 now. Healthy as a horse.

She's not my hope. Jesus is my hope. But she is tangible grace. I mean, tangible grace. I look in her face. We got it backwards. I don't have a baby. daddy yet. So if y'all knows somebody who hunts as employed, that would be fabulous who loves

Jesus. It needs to be a bowler. You know, my daddy was a hunter, so I like all the camo. But getting to be her mom when I didn't deserve it, her second mama, I've learned so much more about the gospel in that. You know, you see adoption through here, and I get it bigger. Because of how much I don't deserve is in my story. And I don't have to sit at the kitty table.

And he brought me to the banqueting table and gave me more than I could ever deserve. That's good. There were so many verses popping in my head, though, about that true religion that God's find faultless is doing good to widows and orphans. It's just such a strange passage. But it's right after every good and perfect gift comes from above. That's right. that's right i'm like you saw a situation had the heart of jesus and i think this is what he does i was thinking about the competition of the two words you got you know one not from the holy spirit and one

from and the one that came from the holy spirit came from somebody who was at a church where she sat on her hands but i i've we adopted and our story's kind of crazy too and i will tell you that what what i saw god do like supernatural thing that you're just like I mean, I think he shows up in ways when you step into that type of deal, and then you look back on it, and you're like, you know, because our story is very similar in a lot of ways. And that's why I kind of teared. I was trying to hold it in.

Well, I teared up because I have my own version of this. Which made me think, though, when you're telling me kind of, you know, where are the scriptures for this and all? But you've been adopted by God. I mean, your story shows that more than any story I've ever heard in my life. But we're all adopted. I mean, we're all, we look back out for a couple of years. We were just, is this the way we're going to live our life?

Exactly. And the opposite of what should be happening is happening. We're getting kicked out, you know, and all these things. And so are you ready to tell your story now? I don't have that time. We're out of time. I was just going to say this. I mean, here we are.

extremely busy you know and we have you know this little guy referred to as little man on the church you know in the podcast but and it was literally you get a call a woman who my wife had known earlier had basically signed over this baby from prison to us of course we're looking at each other like well what you know i was kind of going through that process with you well i'm not sure i'm signed up for this what are we going to do and long story short you know it's that same spirit-led passion that you had stop you're like yeah and you know the power of it at least is that the first word was so wrong because because of you being that five-year-old girl at that pew and embracing and knowing the adopted power of the almighty you were the perfect one to adopt that

girl and now that's why you're seeing the proof way and and the way that I always always say this all the time when I talk about Ruth that I may have gone into it thinking I'm trying to fulfill that James passage and and almost kind of like a little bit like okay we're I'm doing my part but then you do it and then you realize that they're the blessing to you oh a thousand percent you're like A thousand. And you know what's crazy. Missy didn't have an orphan spirit. She had a great aunt.

I mean, she was poor. All the kids in her village were poor. Yeah. She was sick. All the kids in the village were sick. It wasn't until she had to go to an orphanage. That her story really was horrible. Missy does not have an orphan spirit.

Yeah. I had an orphan spirit. I think even people look to you all from all over the world for family. That's right. But how crazy that you knew what it was to feel like orphans. Exactly. And so to me, All goes back to the gospel.

Everything you're saying, I mean, we have a girl from Nicaragua. Doesn't have an orphan spirit. She's part of our family now. It just, it's very powerful. We never got to John 17. I can't believe I miss you if I love John 17. We're going to get there next time. But I will say this.

We're going to get an invite back. I'm just going to go ahead and say this. I will not be coy. I'm going to tell you, Lisa. You have pulled out. We know who is the most powerful. for a person here at the table because you came into the most testosterone-laden podcast on the internet and we all cried today.

He made it all cry. So you win. He's a story. What a blessing. He's a good guy. He's such a kind. God's so holy. Yeah.

It's so good. Thank you so much, Lisa, for coming on the podcast. I could not think of a better way to wrap up Nashville, right? I knew this was going to go. Yeah, you did. You did. He said you would be good. Good job, Zach.

Can we do it again sometime? In a heartbeat. Yes, sir. All right. Thank you, Lisa. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.