Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1233 | John Luke Admits He Has ‘Tons’ of Enemies & the Bible Confirms Witches & Ghosts

Episode Date: December 19, 2025

Christian Huff awkwardly opens up a little too much about life at home, but John Luke quickly tops it by declaring he has not just one adversary, but tons of low-level foes, sparking a dramatic debate about what it means to trust God with the fate of our enemies. The guys move into the unsettling world of Saul’s downfall, the “ghostwife” of Endor, and the moment Scripture proves the dead can indeed speak. David’s restraint, Saul’s unraveling, and the haunting echo of Samuel’s return all point to the deeper truth about spiritual warfare, leadership, jealousy, and trusting God’s timing. In this episode: Genesis 1; Genesis 38; Exodus 7–14; 1 Samuel 13; 1 Samuel 15; 1 Samuel 16; 1 Samuel 17; 1 Samuel 18; 1 Samuel 22; 1 Samuel 24, verse 10; 1 Samuel 26; 1 Samuel 28; 1 Samuel 31; 2 Samuel 1; 2 Samuel 2; Hebrews 12, verse 1 Today's conversation is about Lesson 5 of The David Story: Shepherd, Father, King taught by Hillsdale Professor Justin Jackson. Take the course with us at no cost to you! Sign up at http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ More about The David Story: Encounter the beauty of the Bible. The David Story: Shepherd, Father, King explores the lives of Israel's first two kings—Saul and David—to discover the Bible’s profound lessons about fatherhood, the nature of sin, and the consequences of sin on both a family and a nation. While David suffers great tragedies due to his own transgressions, he models a path to redemption through repentance. Join Professor Justin Jackson in a careful reading of First and Second Samuel to gain a deeper understanding of the meaning and beauty of this story that is not only fundamental to the Christian and Jewish faiths, but also a literary masterpiece. Join us today in this pursuit of a deeper understanding of the Bible in “The David Story.” Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters: 00:00-05:50 Potty training mayhem 05:51-09:15 The melancholy of King Saul 09:16-14:44 The cultural impact of foreskins? 14:45-20:02 David respects his would-be murderer 20:03-28:05 Saul’s sin leads to slaughter 28:06-34:30 A message from beyond the grave 34:31-41:06 The big plot twist no one saw coming 41:07-49:41 Trusting God with your enemies — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Oh, welcome. Welcome. That was a different 3-2-1, but you've got a little, you've got some little, some jazz in yours. I like that. Okay. It's really good. There's like a little patty's out of town. And so we've had a team effort here, Zach, for the Unashamed for Hillsdale podcast that we do weekly, which we're excited about doing.

Aren't we? Yeah, we're excited. There was a little bit of a delay there because I'm coming in from Black Mountain. But yeah, and we're taking the course. You can take it free with us. We're in the story of David. And so if you want to sign up, I've got to Unashamed for Hillsdale.com,

and you can sign up for the course with us, which we highly recommend because the way we're, we're just talking about what we're listening to on Dr. Jackson's lecture. So if you don't listen to the course with us, you may not know what we're talking about. It makes a lot more sense if you join us. But, you know, those of you that listen to the regular Unashamed podcast, you know that we have something called the cold open,

which Dad refused to call it that because he said that sounded like a downer, so he called it the hot take, but whatever. But we always do a little something up front about what's going on in our lives. Of course, with Jay's on the podcast, it's typically what's going on in his life. And then Zach and I react and respond to that. But I just thought you guys got young. kids, you know, any young kids story? I mean, kids do funny things, right? And hilarious things. Is there anything y'all have to get us started with what they're cold open? Yeah, I have a quick.

It's a Haven. She's actually almost fully potty trained now. She's been the past two weeks. She's just been. And she's the middle one. She's the middle one, yeah. So she's about two and a half. And she's walking around the house and her panties and doing all the stuff. And today, she'd go to the bathroom. She said she had a good poop. So she went pooping the potty. And it was great. everything. So I wiped her. Does anybody cheer and like? Yeah, well, she's, yeah, yeah, yeah.

She's very excited about it. So she went to the bathroom, I wiped her, and then I flush the toilet. And she was not, she likes, I forget that she likes to flush the toilet. She was so mad at me. She was like, I'm mad at you. And she, I'm so mad. And she was, like, doing her fist down and, like, making an angry face. And I was like, I'm sorry.

You know, I'll put a piece of toilet paper in there and you can flush it. So then she gets back on the toilet. And she's like red face, like, she's trying to go to the, the bathroom again. Just because she wants to flush the toilet. So she's like red fish and she's like grunting and then there's like the tiniest little turd comes out. And then I wipe her again and she flushes the toilet and she's so happy. But it was just a funny moment of, of she somehow forces herself to have another little turd. What's she can shoot in herself. Well, it's funny about that story is that except for the

be a mad part, I did the exact same thing two weeks ago, myself. It was just, I had to go. I was so excited. And then I just thought, well, maybe just a little more. Did Lisa flush the toilet for you? No, but no, I get the complaints and give the complaints at my house because my grandkids won't flush. I'm just like, you were you raised in a barn? I mean, come on. Like, you know. It is a sometimes, it is a bad feeling when you do forget to flush, which it's a rare thing. But if you ever do forget to flush the toilet and your wife walks in, it's a very, it's not a fun conversation. I don't know if I've never done that really I mean I don't understand it I'm muscle if you live life if you go multiple times a day I mean it's not sometimes you just might never are you serious this never never never not one time of my entire life well it's every time I mean in seven years of marriage that's happened to me a couple times I just I

get well I mean I don't not I forgot I don't not forget to why I don't not forget to why I wipe. I'm on my phone. I get a phone. I'm like, what about you? Maybe just Maricade just lets it go and say it. He's like, no. Let me tell you, Maricade would not let it go. That's how I know I've done it because Marigate wouldn't let it go. I got a bunch of kids, though, and I feel like that I spend probably 30% of my time at my house flushing toilets. Yeah.

Like nobody else does it but me. But that's why I'm always, because it makes me so mad. I mean, I love like a house that kids running. I love that. But the thing I don't like is the toilet situation and then the fact that they get into my tools. And like anytime I need to get something, I can't find out where it's at because they've got to, they treat things that are not disposable as disposable. Well, that's my rule.

My rule is you can use any, my son-in-laws in particular, not necessarily the grandkids, but you can use anything I have always. It's always open to you to use, but put it back. Like, because you go to find, you know, you go where your stuff is and it's not there. It's maddening. I can't take that's one of my rules. If you're going to use it, put it back. But, you know, half the time they don't.

So we have to deal with that. Well, you may think that this is a really kind of an awkward opening, which kind of is awkward. Christian took us there. I mean, he did. It's like, okay, kind of inappropriate. I mean, we're going to be any more appropriate than some of the stuff we're reading in this text. Some of the stuff we're going to get into. I'm already training my two-year-old right now.

That's real life story. That's true. Thank you, Christian. Thank you for your life. That's real. That's real. We're about to get into four skins. Thank you, guys.

That's just a little prelude. That's a prelude. Because we're continuing it. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say the Bible doesn't shy away from any subject. So it's all in there. Go ahead. Yeah, we're continuing in the tragedy and the downfall of Saul,

leading in really to David becoming the king. But, yeah, we went through some of it last week. But yeah, this is, this is a further decline of Saul. We saw a lot of it in the last episode where we talked about, you know, his jealousy towards David and just, you know,

a lot of the things that he was dealing with with his own melancholy as the, as the spirit enters David as he's anointed. You know, the spirit leads Saul's. And then he goes into this period of melancholy. And, and just really kind of like, I don't think you said,

like maybe like schizophrenia, paranoia. I mean, there's a lot going on psychologically with Saul. Well, and then one of the first things he does now that he's introduced to David, you know, in these first couple of chapters, whether it's the musician side or what he saw in the valley there with Goliath. And he makes him the captain and the guard, and I thought Dr. Jackson made a really good point that, you know, does he do that out of political expediency, which could be? You know, you see that a lot in our system where somebody will pick a run and mate or somebody,

maybe somebody that just represents something that they want to be part of their team. In other words, I, Team Saul needs to have, you know, David on it. Or was it more sinister? And then he proves that this second one is more likely.

Does he want maybe him to get kill while he's out there? You know, the idea is, you know, which later, of course, is a little bellwether for what David does to. You're right.

I thought that was a crazy connection. Yeah, I thought it was pretty good. I never thought about that. Yeah. And it's funny is I wrote it down in my notes. and then he said it right after because I was thinking,

ooh, that's pretty good because that's exactly what David did later. And maybe that's, Davey David knew that and thought, oh, we'll try the old Saul trick, you know, with his situation with your right. But either way, I think it shows you that Saul is manipulating

the David's situation for him to hold on to power, which kind of becomes, I think, the underlying theme of this entire section that he gets into, including the daughter, because remember the daughter, daughter was promised, but it wasn't this daughter.

It was another daughter, right? It wasn't it the first daughter. It wasn't Michael originally, but Michael loved David. Yeah. And he said something I had never known before. I don't know if this surprised you guys, that this is the only time in the Hebrew Bible where a woman loves first. I was going to bring that up to you.

Yeah. What about that? That's pretty wild when you think about it. The only time she's like the first one to say, you know, the way he put it, how did he put it is a phrase he said it. She has agency. Uh-huh. The only time in Hebrew

where the female has agency had agency. Right, which was pretty good. Yeah. Which his point to that was kind of more tongue-in-checo of, well, of course it's King David. You know, so of course the only time in scripture that that he mentioned because everybody loved David, which is interesting because, you know,

if later on in the story it talks about how she ended up despising David when he's dancing in the temple and then it just ends with and she had no children. Which I thought it was interesting of why she would be the only character in the Bible mentioned about her loving a man. And then just a couple of chapters later, she ends up despising him. I thought that was interesting. Well, part of that is probably, I mean, I can't imagine ancient history with so many arranged marriages.

And in fact, John Luke kind of teased about the foreskin. So you had to like present a bridal gift to a father in this culture. and it had to be something pretty substantial, even to marry someone's daughter. In this case, it's the king. So what are you going to give him? And so Dave is like, well, I don't know. I'm a shepherd doing.

I'm out here doing my thing. I don't have anything. And he says back to his point about putting him in harm's away, I'll tell you what, if you'll just go down and get me 100 Philistine foreskins, and if you're not sure what that is, audience, just look it up. Careful Googling. Yeah, definitely don't do the images.

Don't do your image search that. So he tells him to 100 foreskins, pretty much knowing that a typical Philistine is probably not going to willingly give up the four skin. So this is going to be a scrap, right, for you to be able to do this. And so David, who's ever the overachiever, brings back 200 fourskins. So. And today, yeah, if, if, if, if Zach had asked you to do that, what would you have placed that in to bring it back to Zach?

what's that? Like what would you have placed the foreskins on? Like a Ziploc bag or would you have like What would you present it? If I'm David Like how would I present these

Forskins to Saul? Like on a platter In a backpack Wait, I have a thought on that If you want to take this course With us, you can sign up for free at Hillsdale

Unashame for Hillsdale.com To do that to get Yeah I got this. Toby Butcher and say it wrong. Yeah. Let's just step up here. Just show you boys.

Delta Airlines.com and sign up for free. Wait, I mean, that's a different website. Go ahead. Try to get it. Sign up to take this course for free with us at unashamed for Hillsdale.com. That's right. That's unashamed for Hillsdale.com. You got it.

For free. For free. Take the course for free. I saw this movie. This guy, he was like, what about the guy who just happened to look and David's bag in the middle of it. David's walking in.

Hey, you got any snacks in it? Whoa. It kept that right next to the head of Goliath. I know. I mean, this guy's care. But what I'm saying is when you read these things like this, and there's a lot of stuff like this in the text,

because it's real. I mean, it was, it was culture as what was going on. It was like, we know where circumcision came from, right? Genesis 17.

We know the reason. and why it did with Abraham and the sign of the covenant. And so it became part of Israel understood, but the rest of the world has no idea what that's about. And by the way, that's still true today. I think I told the story years ago on the podcast, but when I was in Dominican Republic with Ben, he was translating. I was teaching the book of Galatians. And of course, in that book, there's a lot about, you know, the gospel plus, you know, and circumcision was one of the things they were trying to add to the gospel. And so I'm teaching. teaching this text going through it and Ben's, you know, he's like pop, pop, pop, pop,

you know, Spanish. And then we do a Q&A at the end. And so there's a bunch of young people in there. And one of the young guys raises his hand and asks, what is this circumstances? And I don't know what the Spanish word for that that Ben's been saying the whole time. And so as soon as he said it, all the old guys that were kind of sitting off to the left, all the old preachers and missionaries, they all kind of chuckled. thought, oh, let's see how the green girl answers this.

And I looked at Baird, and I was like, I don't think you need me for this one, Ben. You just need to tell what it is. And so here goes Ben, like in Spanish, he said, and the more he's talking, the kids are like moving to the edge of their seat, you know, and there's young women and young men in this audience. They've never heard of this before. So they don't, and they're leaning forward.

And he's talking, talking and talking. And of course, I don't understand the language. So I'm like, is he going to get to the money line here? And as soon, I knew when he hit the money line, because as soon as he did it, the girls all giggled and the guys all went, I mean, they're all just like, ooh, like, oh, that's a collective. It's like, that's a thing. And so it's really funny. But what it told me was is that culturally, something like this, if you've never experienced it, you wouldn't even know what it was about. And so obviously this was a way for him to put David in harm's way

was the purpose of it. That's why I did it. Exactly. Yeah. And this is, immediately when you hear this story, you know this is like, David's going to do something very similar later on in his life with Uriah. He's going to put him out in the front lines to be killed because he knows that he's a threat to him now, to a threat to basically exposing his own sin.

And so again, I think that contrast continues to play out. There's so many similarities between Saul and David, but yet, man, the one thing that's different, it makes all the difference in the world is that David is quick to repent and turn back to the living God. Saul's not. Saul reminds me of Pharaoh a lot because it's like the, even the text talks about him being sent. God sent him a tormenting spirit. And so there seems to be a lot of that kind of belligerence, you know, Pharaoh, the story of Pharaoh, you know, before, God even hardened Fawah's heart. Therra had hardened his own heart several times already.

And so you see that same kind of belligerent spirit in Saul that I'm not going to turn. I'm going to keep doubling down. And I may relent for a little bit, but I'm not going to really yield my heart to God of this because I'm going to preserve my own power and because I'm blinded by my own jealousy and by my own paranoia. And that really was the main point of Saul's downfall was his own. paranoia and jealousy. I tell you another biblical story, Zach, that fits that same narrative is in the book of

Daniel with Nebuchadnezzar, who was the Babylonian. Can you see the exact same thing? He's very powerful. New he was powerful. Had taken Israel into captivity, so obviously it was completely in charge. But God had used him to do this. And, you know, God's using him for a purpose. And then he gets defined even to God.

And guys, oh, I think you need about seven years to go out and become a little farm animal to really teach you about who's in charge. And so that's exactly, he goes crazy. He has this spirit of, he goes out and runs with the wild animals for seven years. And then he comes to his senses and comes back. So I think you see that all along. There's always these people, whether they're Hebrews or not,

they get the idea that they're bigger than God and they're not, you know, which comes back every time. He talks about this a lot. And I think, because he reiterated, he talks a lot about, you know, how much David truly lovesaw when, you know, the moment in the cave, then the moment with the water jug. And he kind of talks about how those, you know,

seem like maybe a similar story or two separate stories, but how when David calls that to Saul, he calls him Lord and King and Father. And I think to me, one of the most fascinating things about David is how, like, he, how he remained so much respect and he still had so much restraint for his respect for Saul. If you just think continually, this man's hurling spears,

at you. He's repeatedly trying to kill you. And you know, you have, you have your band of brothers behind you telling you this is the opportunity that the Lord has handed him over to you. And he does cut the cloak and he has remorse for it, which kind of talk about what you mentioned, Zach, about the difference between David's repentance and Saul's. But I think just for some reason, that is just so fascinated to me about David, is how he still maintained so much respect for Saul, even after all the things that Saul had put him through. Because for us, I mean, I don't think, would have any respect or admiration or even maybe love for someone who was trying to throw spears at me and repeatedly trying to kill me. So I thought that was really interesting.

Yeah, because Saul, yeah, it's a good point that Dr. Jackson brought up that Saul, we talked about this in the last episode, but he was clinging to the cloak of Samuel and tore it. And that was the moment when Samuel was like, okay, the kingdom is going to be torn away from you. And now David is tearing the cloak away from Saul, signifying, yep, the kingdom of God. I'm tearing it away from you. But he doesn't relish in that. Even though he had to have known that this was, this is what his calling was, but he's like, ooh, I probably shouldn't have done that. And so David actually repents. He actually feels bad for what he did. So when he ends up approaching Saul in this manner, he's like, later on, you will see this. He's like, he repents for this.

And I don't know exactly does he repent to God, but he confesses to Saul in the moment on his knees in front of him. And Saul's trying to kill him. So think about it. I mean, what David is doing is saying, here I am. Yeah. Andini. I mean, if you want to take my life, now's the time to do it. But Saul instead is moved by his confession.

Yeah, David doesn't accept the implications of what's happening here. And Saul is trying to manifest his own power. structures. And one of the stories that part of this story that is so shocking to me. And it really is shocking is how Saul's paranoia and how far Saul goes into the abyss of evil that he ends up killing or having killed the priest of God. Yeah. Like that to me is such a shocking turn of events.

If you're reading this as a narrative and you think, far can a person go, it's actually staggering. Which is the natural progressive nature of sin and evil anyway, right, Zach? I mean, people will do things that never thought themselves capable if you just do it long enough. It just progresses on itself, which is powerful. So, by the way, those of you, and I know there are a few of you out there that were offended by how we opened the podcast talking about poop, but Saul went into the cave to poop.

by the way, said to relieve himself was the nice way to believe him. Search that word out which I did. I pulled a Jace. I literally went down

a rabidoh and that's what he was in there for. And so that's another thing about the moment too that I think it does the text doesn't tell you this

but I think David felt bad about it. Here's somebody in an ultimate vulnerable position. You know, they're in the cave to relieve themselves

and he sneaks up there in the most private moments where let's face it none of us want anybody in there with us and he

cuts this cloak as a way and takes a piece of it's going to embarrass him later and then thought oh man that's i mean but what i love about it is he honors the position more than anything because he kept saying the lord's anointed member because he had been annoyed it he was anointed king over over israel and i feel the same way about when i hear people like trashing a president that they didn't vote for or don't agree with or it's any of any you know a person in government and once a person is in that position I think we should always treat it respect. You can disagree with them. You cannot like their personality.

And I'm saying you wouldn't ever say bad thing. But I'm saying to denigrate somebody, especially if you did it to their face, to me would be like the ultimate disrespect. If I were to meet a president that was the party I don't agree with, I would be respectful. This is our president. He is our leader. And I think you see some of that with David. It's like God appointed this guy. You know, he anointed him.

And so who am I to come in and sneak in when he's going to the bathroom and, you know, try to denigrate what he's doing? So I love that. I think it shows you the stark difference. And Zach's a great point to show the difference in the two men and what it looks like to have a heart of God versus whatever Saul's heart became. And I don't even know how you describe it at this point because we are heading toward this cliff of evil that he's about to go over. man it was such a strong point that silence this point everyone's just thinking on that one just pontificate

just to add on to the idea of the Lord's anointed and how respectful David was of that role going off your president analogy I think when we vote someone as president or not or someone gets voted in to any office it's our president in the sense that all of us collectively had a choice

in it, even if it, whether it is or who isn't, we voted for. Right. And that creates a sense of like, you want to be respectful for that position, even if it's not the one you voted for, because when you have your guy in, you want them to be respected. Exactly. Right. Yeah. And I think that's part of what's going on here.

And he wanted to be successful, right? Because we're all successful. Right. Because if David is saying, like, I disrespecting Saul, trying to get him out, what David is saying is that, oh, the anointing doesn't matter. Like, it's my power to take Saul out. Instead, David is saying, no, God puts Saul in for as long as God wants Saul in, and I'm going to be next whenever God decides is my time. David's not trying to take anything for himself. And Christian brought up the, and Dr. Jackson deals with it some. And this is, that's chapter 24

1st, Samuel. In chapter 26, there's a very similar story that has all the same element. It's in the cave. It's all this. And he takes a spear and a water jug away from Saul. And the point making, maybe they're the same story that's just told in two different ways, which makes sense that he would maybe take those two items with him. One represented member of the idea of his power. He tried to kill him.

He got the spear. The other one, the sustenance, you know, which, you know, whether it happened on two separate instances, I don't think it matters. But it does represent the idea that, David had respect for him and saw repentance even to Saul himself. And it was given. I mean, because he said, let's go back to the palace. You know, it's over. When he was talking about that story, do you all remember what Saul's last words to David were? You shall surely went out. Bingo. Good job, Al. I had that written out. You shall surely went out. Yeah, I thought that was

interesting. That was the last thing that Saul told David was, you shall surely went out. Yeah. Going back to this killing of the priest, I mean, I thought this was one of the most incredible points, probably of the whole lecture. And the reason why I like this point I'm about to tell you that Dr. Jackson made is because I think you can, anytime you look at what, like, what God's called you to do, which a lot of that is like have dominion over the creation, things like that, anytime you abdicate that, it's weird how the inverse is always what you end up. encountering is the inverse of the thing that God told you to do so. So if you go back, you remember the reason, what was the reason for Saul's downfall was that he couldn't see beyond his paranoia or his jealousy. But the reason why Saul lost his kingdom was because he didn't slaughter the Amalekites whenever he was told to. We talked about that in the previous episode, and he didn't kill, what's his name again?

King Agar. Aga. Yeah. Hagog. Yeah. Scrass that. He didn't kill King Agog and he kept all the extra cattle and stuff. He didn't kill him.

He didn't do what God told him to do. That's why he ultimately lost the kingdom. But then what does he do to Israel? He does to Israel what he should have done to his enemy. He actually slaughters all of the priests because he thought that they were in some kind of like conspiracy against him with David and he thought, I've got to kill all the priests or they're going to shut me out and take me down. So it's interesting. The thing that he does accomplish is what he should have accomplished against his enemies. He actually, the inverse that he actually

accomplishes against his friends, against his people, against his own kind. And he employs, no one in his own kingdom would do it. So he has to employ the Edomite to do it, which is just so fascinating to me of the nature of how evil works. I don't know if you guys caught that or not whenever Dr. Jackson was talking about it. Well, so you can sign up to take the course for free with us at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. And the first component, Zach, that you left out of that, which even bolsters your point even stronger, because what you mentioned was the second big mistake. The first one, remember, was him being impatient and taking the role of a priest. Remember, he stepped in when, so not only did he.

he not do what God told him to do in wiping out these people, but he took on the role of a priest. So now we get down to this final stage and to your point, Zach, he not only, he kills the very people that once he was trying to imitate and he wipes out his own people. I mean, in that process. That shows you, you talk about a mistake compounded on a mistake, compounded on a mistake. I mean, that's exactly what you say, which was his, what did you kind of doag the edamite? Was his... Doag the Edomite. Yeah, that was who he was.

Which is interesting when you get to... That's kind of a little different discussion, but the Edomites play an interesting role in the unfolding of God's people. And when you get to Romans chapter 9, the Apostle Paul actually mentions the Edomites. And he talks about Jacob of love that Esau of hated. He's talking about the Edomites. And he loves Israel. Israel is his peak God's chosen.

people and then he's explaining who Israel is and it's this beautiful picture that Paul presents and the gospel but you kind of see that narrative running through here as well he didn't talk about any of that but I just thought it was interesting why and Edomite and these are descendants of Esau and so these are really enemies of Israel and if you look through our history that was kind of that that was a continual rivalry that started way back with Jacob and Esau so the people that saw who is going to

basically, he's going to the enemy of Israel and bringing them into his camp and taking out his own people. I mean, you just cannot make this stuff up. And he shows this, Zach, when you get to chapter 28, he again continues this behavior.

So now he's done this and this terrible thing. And so Samuel has died. So you remember Samuel was the one he did ever, he always wanted to stay attached to Samuel because somehow he thought that was like a threadline to the Almighty for him. Yeah. Because they had always been so linked.

Well, now Samuel's gone. So he doesn't know what to do. I mean, he knows it's not going well. He knows. So he's like, well, I've somehow got to talk to Samuel. So in chapter 28, he goes to the necromancer or the NIV and some of the newer version say the witch. But the ghost wife was what the version that we're studying here with Dr. Jackson is what it calls. I never heard that before.

I like that, though. Yeah, I do too. Ghost wife. That sounds very creepy, especially right after Halloween here. But so he goes, but guess who had banned all necromancers and ghost wives or witches in Israel? Anybody want to guess? Yeah. It's all.

He, which rightly so. He did the right thing. He banned all this because it's like, why would we want to do that? We got the Almighty, right? Well, now that he wants to find Samuel, he goes and he says, you've got to find me one of these mechromassers and they're like, are you kidding? Is this like an entrapment? Yeah. I mean, it's like, you're going to, oh yeah, I get this. You know, this is a state. I won two Super Bowl tickets. Yeah, okay. I'm going to show right up for that. And so, so they're like,

he says, look, I'm a swear to you. I won't do anything to you. So here again is the guy who banned the behavior that's now stepping in and say, get me one of these people. What I find fascinating, and he doesn't go into this much in the lecture. But I, I, I'd love to know y'all's opinion about this whole subject, is that he actually finds one and she actually does it. Yes. That's my favorite. This is one of my favorite stories in the whole Bible.

It is to me, too. I mean, why is it so your favorite? I'll tell you why. It's so interesting to me because the whole first that they're banned in Saul has to find one. Exactly. Then he does. And then how shock they all are, every one of them, even the ghost wife. Exactly.

Whatever. You know, he's like incognito going to do this. Oh, yeah. He's not like, he's got the, he's got the hoodie on. He's like, you know. But if he was the tallest in Israel, it's kind of like he's maybe he's like squat, you know. Oh, I'm sure he's got a full, a full costume. Oh, he's got a full costume.

And the woman's like, who do you want to meet a summit for you? And he's like, Samuel. And the woman was like, okay, sure. Like, she's about to do her whole, like, I imagine her whole fake, like, bit. Like, she's got the candles and the... Did you ever see the movie Ghost? No. Patrick Swayze and Whoopi Goldberg?

Oh, yeah. This is that scene. Because, like, she's got this fake scam running. Right. She's about to do the scam. And all of a sudden, Patrick Swayze shows up for real, and it's talking to her, and she freaks out. That's exactly what it is. This is this story.

That's exactly what it is. That whole part, but then also on a, on a, on a, reality level that we also have to do something with this passage. That's just taking the next level of whether we do with this, that this is possible. It happened. It happened, yeah. Yeah. And to me, this passage, the Mount of Transfiguration scene where Elijah and Moses show up with Jesus,

I mean, that was wild. I mean, we can see it more there because Jesus is there and so God's doing it. But this one here, this one is a little bit of a freak out for me. because I'm like, this person did it. Now, obviously, God sent Samuel back with a message. And here's the thing, if you're going to get into a seance with the ghostway, if anybody's out there into that thing, be careful what you wish for. Because the message you get from the great beyond may not be the one you want to hear.

You're forgetting, John, you're forgetting one important, funny detail about it. He's wearing the cloak. Oh, yeah. I was going to bring that up. Samuel, and I had never thought about that before Jackson brought it up, is Samuel's wearing the cloak in the appearance from the Great Beyond. So it's almost like, and I had never noticed that before this study, that that's showing you even beyond the pale, the faithfulness is still there to face down saw.

It's like one last reminder that like, this is bad. So the prediction is this is the end for you. And I've always thought that was something. You know, people always want to like, what if we could talk to the dead? And I was like, yeah, but it may not be good. It's like every time you see an angel show up in the scriptures, you know, almost every time, people are mortified. They fall out like dead people when they see a real angel. So it's like, you know, it's not one of these TV people that just looks like, you know, Roma Downey.

I mean, this is like, these are scary, frightening things from beyond. But it is real. I'm like, you, you still got to deal with it because it happened. with it, yeah. Yeah, it was beyond the pet. What do you think is that? Yeah, I mean, it's really a fearsome sight. But I think that what's interesting is the way that their relationship kind of ends.

You brought up earlier Christian, the last words spoken to David from Saul were, you shall win out. Yeah, so you're going to win out. Like, you're going to, like, yeah. And at the end, you really see. kind of saw, I won't say come full circle, but I mean, he does kind of accept the, this is where it's headed.

This is where it's headed. And then it ends with, his life ends basically essentially by him falling on a sword in front of the Philistines and then they desecrate his body. But you remember what was the thing that when he was like talking with David and Dave was basically, you remember what his negotiation? Like what did he want?

What did Saul want? him to spare his family right yeah yeah he's like like spare my family and and you know i would if i was in david's shoes and this person was coming after me i've had i have a few people in my life that i would call them like nemesis do you guys all have a nemesis tons of them you do i mean you got a few down look has tons of yeah yeah pretty decent about you probably don't have i have I have very few nemesis these days, but I've had something in my past. I'm not quite like John Luke. You have non-John Luke?

He said there's no, he said tons. Tons of them. Tons of nemesis. Nemesis. Nemesis. Nemesis. Nemise. Nemesis.

What do you say? Nemesis. But I mean, I've got there, I mean, I get, right, right off the top of my head, there's four people. I will say three of them have been prosecuted for something illegal. So that's good, right? but there's about four people in my right. You've got high-level

in court. I've got low-level nemesis. When they were being prosecuted in court-acted, they say you are more in the right than I. What's that way? He made that call back. He made that call back to Judah and Tim R. He did.

I thought that was cool. I would not have picked that up. That was a good callback. That was a good call back. Thank you. But these are the people that I know would love to see my demise. I mean, there's a few of them. They're not a holder, but those are the kind of people.

I have a hard time like, I have a hard time with that, particularly if I've had a relationship with them in the past, and I feel like that they've, you know, violated me in some way. And so to think about David's posture here for me, just think about the person in your life that has done the most wrong to you and tried to destroy you. That's who Saul is to David. And then yet at the end of this whole thing,

he's trying to negotiate with David. And I just found it like David's lament. And in 2 Samuel chapter 1, I found just so wild that he actually honors the one who was trying to kill him and destroy him. Yeah. It's just mind-blowing. Which, again, is back to his heart. I wanted to read this, this tail end of this, because we were talking about it earlier, exactly what was said by Samuel to Saul. And then I found this whole story so fascinating.

It's one of my favorite chapters in the whole Bible. But he tells him, he says, The Lord shall give Israel, too, together with you and to the hands of the Philistines. This was the bad news bears, you know, that came from this. And then he said, and tomorrow you and your sons are with me, meaning like, you're fixing across the pale, which think about that. That's the word you don't want to get. The camp of Israel, too, shall the Lord given to the hands of the Felicity.

And so not only is it Saul's demise, but the whole country's demise, you know, is what happens. And then it says Saul hastened and flung himself full length on the ground. It was very frightened by Samuel's words. He didn't have the strength where he had not, for he'd eaten no food all day and out. Here he goes fasting at the worst possible time. And the woman came to Saul and saw he was distraught. So then she makes a little heed for herself. And she said, why don't I give you a morsel of bread?

So the woman had a stall-fed calf in the house. She hastened and butchered it, took flour, needed it, baked it, and fed he and his servants. And I thought the last meal. Your last supper was at the hands of the ghostwife that brought you the worst news ever. And it was just such a condemning moment for Saul. And I just thought it all culminated in that moment. Then he does die a bad death in the sense of how it all went down. But then to your point, Zach, when it comes to the, so this guy who finds him,

In the moment, he's dead. And he comes back and he tells this tale trying to ingratiate himself to David. But, you know, he was down, David, and I finished him off for you. You know, he's like holding himself up. But David is distraught by this because he's like, who are you to raise your hand against the anointed that you would do this? And then he looks over to somebody standing around, I guess, with a spear. He's like, stab this guy, you know?

Yeah. So that's what this guy is. That was cool with Dr. Jackson said, Dr. Jackson was like, yeah, this guy didn't read chapter 24 and 26. He didn't read the room, right? No, he did not. I want to make a point about Samuel before he get into really get into David. Way back in chapter 16, after Samuel does his final kind of like warning to Saul and says,

okay, you're going to die. that opening verse of 16 and the Lord says Samuel, how long are you going to grieve over Saul when I cast him aside? And Samuel then never saw David until he died like 10 chapters later or so. Samuel thought he failed this entire time too. Like Samuel thought his whole thing, well first Samuel thought he failed because they wanted a king. Like Samuel in his mind, he was supposed to be the prophet.

Like, he's the next judge in line. And then they don't want them. They want the king, so he don't want the king. Then his king fails after all of the warning. And even though Samuel annoys David, he sees this whole tragedy of Saul, but doesn't get to see the rising of David. Like, he dies before the end. And I also think that Saul suspected that,

that someone else was going to be king but didn't know it was David because Saul knew Jonathan hadn't been anointed and Samuel refused to see him so once Samuel dies Saul's like well how can there be there can't be another king

because there's not another prophet to anoint Jonathan my son so what's that That's, I think, when he gets desperate enough to go to talk to Samuel because he legitimately is like, I don't know what's about to happen here. And then when Samuel drops that, the truth bomb of, oh, I've already anointed David, that's got to be just a huge light bulb moment in his mind.

Like, oh, I get it. Like, I did not see this whole thing happening. Like, it's such a plot twist, probably such a plot twist, the entire Israelite community of seeing David rise up, but never thinking he was going to be king, and then finding out, oh, Samuel annoyeded him. Like, he's the next king. That's the interesting part about that story, too, because God tells Samuel to go to Jesse's house and to do this. And Samuel was like, well, if Saul finds out, he's going to kill me, you know.

And then the Lord said, just tell him you're going to make a sacrifice. It's just kind of humor. Yeah. Tell him he had to run some marriage, man. Yeah, I thought that was funny. No, that's good. And that's such a rich thought, Luke, because that's exactly, he tied himself. We'd only look at it from Saul's side of tying himself to Samuel, but it really did work both ways.

You know, and I think of it like, you know, somebody maybe that is someone's chief of staff or whatever in our current political climate, and they've worked hard to get this person elected. And then they turned out to be terrible. and all your fortunes are linked into this guy's political success or they do something really stupid and it's the whole campaign falls apart or whatever. And then you're linked to this person because you were their biggest cheerleader. You're out for, you're doing all the TV shows,

you're done all the media hits for this guy or this gal, and then it turns out to be a complete bust. And so you're always going to be linked to that. And that's why you'll see them, they'll try to get latch on to somebody new, you know, so they'll have that. But I never really put that to you. together, that's exactly probably from his perspective.

He was probably wondering, too, how this thing was all going to play itself out. Right. He didn't know any more than anybody else at that point. No, and he watched Saul try to kill David the whole time. He watched the whole David being on the run situation. And Samuel never inserted himself back in. That's right. To say, no, David's going to be king or Saul, you need to stop.

Like, Samuel was like, I'm washing my hands of this. Saul, you're on your own here. Or really, Samuel was like, God. God, you're on your own here. You got to figure this all out. Because the same will kind of removes himself from the situation. That's often the role of the prophet, right? He speaks it out there, but maybe he doesn't live to see the fruition of the thing that he's prophesying about.

You know, although it is interesting. He did see it from afar. He saw it from obviously his, you know, that verse in Hebrews that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. And I always think these are the saints that have gone on. before us that are cheering us on. So, you know, Samuel, he's, I mean, he's watching this unfold because we know he came back in this moment. But it was in that, it was in that interaction with Saul that you did see some kind of shift. Because coming out of that really was the reconciliation of Saul and David, which, I mean, if you want to call it a reconciliation, I guess it was a

reconciliation, although that would not have satisfied me. I don't know. But for whatever reason, David seemed to kind of relish in it. What does he call it? me calls him. Well, I wanted to mention that. So he, because when he submits to him in that moment, both in 24 and 26, when he says, I wronged you, you know, and basically bows down before him in, in a position of, if you're going to kill me, this is the time you'll do it. I mean, so he was literally offering up his life to him. And he says, he, he, it says that he, uh, he, it says that he, uh, uh, considered him as a father. When you think about it, he's married to his daughter. So he's his son-in-law. his his saul son jonathan is his best friend and they're like brothers so he really is like a father father-in-law

my best friend is your son and then saul says to him my son david and weeps and so the point that dr jackson made the way he put it was this went from political to personal in that moment and i think there's a lot of truth to that i mean you know you can do and say a lot of things that we'll even do it now and say, well, that's just political or political persecution or we'll even say political crime, you know, as if somehow it's different from any other crime. But the idea is when he gets personal, then it's up in your kitchen. And that's the way it was with them here. And this really would be the final time before the demise of Saul, before he was doing all

the rest of these things. And then David basically is left to step in and to be what God called him to be. So it is a moment. I'm like you, Zach. it would left me unsatisfied, especially the way it ended. And nobody was more distraught to hear that Jonathan, his best friend, and then Saul were killed the way they were killed. And it was bad for Israel as well, because then David, you know, he's at war with the Philistines for the whole first part of Second Samuel. I mean, it is.

So, like, two things can be true at the same time. So it was personal. I'm sure there's some political motivation as well, which I was thankful Dr. Jackson pointed that out. Because David's going to have to unite the kingdom. Right. right? I mean, ultimately the kingdom doesn't stay united and it doesn't last long. I mean, the divided kingdom happens

very rapidly after David's passing, or actually after Solomon, but so there's only the united, but he's got to keep this thing together and so I'm sure that's in his mind, but clearly there's he's personally invested in his

relationship and his love for Saul and I think that's you know, you see that when after Saul kills himself, what David executes the Amalekite who the Amalekai who claimed to have killed Saul. So he ends up killing him and avenging him. And then he also, in his lamentation, Dr. Jackson points out that he gives Saul that place of prominence when he, you remember the song I mentioned earlier that what was the song

that Saul has killed his thousands, David, his 10,000s. Well, then David says Jonathan's boat. did not retreat, the sword of Saul never turned away empty. So he's lifting up Saul's legacy. Because the last is always more important than the first, which he's made that point in the literary. Yeah, that's a great point. And then he elevates them together in verse 23 by saying, Saul and Jonathan, beloved and dear, in their life and death, they were not parted. They were swifter than eagles and stronger than lions. Oh, daughters of Israel, weep over Saul, who clothes you in scarlet and bangles

who studded your garments with jewellries of gold how have the warriors fallen in the midst of battle Jonathan upon your heights lane I give I grieve for you my brother Jonathan very dear to you or me more wondrous your love to me than the love

of women which was a powerful statement I mean it just shows you the bond that was there but I love it because in the words of a poet this also showed you how much he loved you know, God's anointed leadership. And he's basically saying nobody had more disagreements

with Saul than me, but we're going to lift him up, you know? I thought about that recently because we had a former vice president passed away this past week. And he's a person that I grew to disagree with a lot politically over the course of the end of his life.

But I thought, this man served honorably. He served in Congress. He served as a vice president. I would talk about earlier. And I thought, I grieve his law. you know, in his family, and even though I don't agree with them all politically, at the same time, that's what we're supposed to do. That's kind of the higher, more honorable place.

And David, I think, shows that in the lament to your point, Zach. Zach, we're almost out of time. Tell folks about how to get this great course and also how to follow us along. Yeah, you can sign up for free, for free at unashamed for hillsdale.com. Take the course with us. We'll be in next week. We'll be in lecture number six. So again, it's unashamed for hillsdale.com.

If you want to do a little bit of reading ahead, Second Samuel 2 is where we're going to be picking up. And, man, we're going to continue on some of the battles with David. And then ultimately, unfortunately, David's demise as well because he's going to have a major problem. He has a meltdown too. In the next couple of lectures, yeah. The pattern continues.

And hopefully maybe we'll get some more poop stories out of Christian. I have a feeling he's not going to run out of anything. time soon. Maybe it'll be me next time. Let's see you next time on Unashamed for Hillsdale. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to Unashamed for Hillsdale.com and sign up. It's no calls to you. That's Unashamed for Hillsdale.com.

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