Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1260 | Jase, Missy & Kasey Van Norman Have a Heavy Conversation About Cheating, Shame & True Healing

Episode Date: February 2, 2026

Jase, Missy, and Al dive into an unfiltered conversation about cheating, confession, and the judgment that often follows when sin comes into the light. Joined by longtime friend, author, and counselor Kasey Van Norman, they confront the lie beneath adultery and why hiding can feel safer than healing, especially in church culture. Kasey shares her own story of infidelity, exposure, and redemption, revealing how honesty brought freedom even when consequences were severe.  In this episode: 1 John 1, verse 7; John 8, verses 1–11; Ephesians 6, verses 16–17; Isaiah 6, verses 5–8 “Unashamed” Episode 1260 is sponsored by: https://preborn.com/unashamed — Visit the PreBorn! website or dial #250 and use keyword BABY to donate today. https://myphdweightloss.com — Find out how Al lost 80+ pounds. Schedule your one-on-one consultation today by visiting the website or calling 864-644-1900 and mention "AL" http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ — Sign up now for free, and join the Unashamed hosts every Friday for Unashamed Academy Powered by Hillsdale College wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters: 00:00 Unashamed “after dark” 03:58 Why church smiles don’t match Sunday morning reality 07:12 Parenting later in life changes everything 09:16 Missy welcomes longtime friend Casey Van Norman 12:38 Duck hunting & menopause don’t mix 20:36 Casey’s marriage story & the moment everything shifted 27:48 Believing in God but believing the wrong lie 35:04 Confession, consequences, & real freedom 42:18 Illness, criticism, & choosing grace anyway 49:36 Creating space for healing — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Why are we, we're not disputing. We always decided. You came in the door to speak. I like that. I like that. Because people, are we rolling? Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

Welcome to Unashamed. No, look, Al. This should be named. I have the title because whoever's doing these titles, we need to talk. Yeah. So I have one. Okay. This is unashamed. after dark.

This is the first podcast we've ever done at Twilight. It is. That is true. Hey, I feel like we should cue some music, Maddie. We're doing this very late in the day. So we've got a guest coming on a little bit later, so we're just kind of setting them up. And it's not just a guess. These are good friends of ours.

They changed our lives. They did. That's good. They've made our lives better, which. It's true. So you were talking as we came in, Jason, about that married couples should have more public disputes because people act prim and proper in the public eye, but then fight, you say they fight more behind the scenes? Here's what I think happens.

I can't wait to hear that. The way our Sunday morning worship works in America. Here's the scene. The husband, he's like, can't find my shoes. and it's like, well, you left them wherever, and, you know, all this is going on. You're at your house. You're going to worship the Lord God Almighty, but everybody's testy. And then you get in the car, you got the kids hollering.

Hey, shut up back there. You want to spanking, I'll tell you. Well, what are we going to eat after? I don't know. Why don't have to make all the decision? And then as soon as you get out of that door and walk in, people are like, hey, how are you? Great. meet, wondrous.

I'm having the time of my life. God is good, all the time. I have a story about that because, and hi, I'm back. Welcome back, Missy. You're such a part of the table now that we don't even feel like we have to introduce you anymore. So growing up when we were raising our kids, those stories, when they would talk about that from the pulpit about how people were fighting every Sunday morning and now you're here

at church and everyone's getting along and putting on their face. We never rode together because I was there. an hour, hour and a half early for worship practice. So for 25 years, we never rode together. He never saw me on Sunday morning. Which I found to be one of the best secrets of our marriage. Guess what? Because see, when the people...

Two cars changed my marriage. I need to write that book. When the preacher's up there pounding, I was like, not me. Not today. I was listening to collective soul, shine. So I have a little story actually about that. So a few weeks ago, Jace was asked. to speak at our local Celebrate Recovery, and I was asked to be on the worship team that morning.

I mean, I'm sorry, that evening on Friday night. That was Celebrate Recovery. Somehow, when Jay's told the story about his being, he never mentioned you, he never mentioned you've been on the praise team, which I find, did you know, I was on the first, for one year, the first praise band team at WFR because I wanted them to have pastoral support, and, you know, I was on the passengers at that time. But you can't sing. I know.

That was the downside to it. But luckily, nobody. else could either. Is that actually true? No, it's true. I wanted to fact check that. It's true. But anyway. That I can't sing or that I was on the team? Did you just Panama? No, I know you can't sing.

Oh. You know, this is reminding me that Barney Griffith and the, you know, he wanted. Barney Griffith. Whatever it's named. Barney 5. And that's what I did when I sang, Jay's. I just, they kept getting me lower and lower. And then I realized they never had my mic on. So it different me.

But the musical. musical director every time something would be said but he'd say but Andy he can't sing that's why I said that so just so you know defend the context Keith Powell was our leader oh wow so there you go remember this is 20 years ago we were just trying to help people off of drugs and we didn't want to hurt oh on the celebrate recovery yeah on the Friday night okay I gotcha okay not not a at that bit far oh yeah no lot lacks on Friday night yeah that's what I'm saying okay I got you now do you understand the content right to the story babe Okay, so actually I was there also while Jace was speaking that night, and we had a little man with us.

And so we, afterwards, of course he was great. We had a bag full of stuff for him to do. He was great. That place was rocking. They are fantastic. They were worshiping. It was amazing. I knew that in my blood ever, like shot into my veins.

Because these folks are excited that they have found Christ. Yes. And so it was refreshing. It was great. Jay did a wonderful job speaking. Fantasticly wonderful job. This is where he did the Tom Petty song. No, he talked about it.

Oh, yeah, yeah, he did. He played it. But then they took over the song. Yeah. It was like they sang. And they took over your lesson. Yeah, they sang louder at the time. Hey, don't back down than we did in the actual worship songs.

Well, remember, they were. I lost control of the audience. Go ahead. So after it was over, they helped us out. We had Little Man, of course, and so they helped us out. We were in two different vehicles because I got there early to practice. So I put Little Man in the car seat and Jace takes off. So we start going and Little Man says to me, where's J-Rot?

And I said, he's in his truck. What? Where? Where's his truck? I said, it's up ahead. He already left. Well, why is it J-Walk in the car? Now, got to realizing Little Man does not know the life that our

children had. So our children either rode with me most of the time, sometimes with Jace when they were older. But little man, we are always together. Yeah. He rides with us everywhere we go. And so for him to realize that there's only one of us in the car and one of us is in a different truck going somewhere else, he was just kind of like, I don't understand what's happening right here. So it was very different for us. I pointed that out when I got home to Jays. I thought, this is crazy. We're the same people, but now we're raising or helping to raise. a child in a completely different environment. Which says something.

Right, about parenting a lot of times later in life for whatever reason. Maybe you have a child that's younger than the rest. But when Jeff describes his relationship with mom and dad, especially dad, it's completely different from my experience. Like he'll talk about this man he knows that's very different from the man that I grew up with. Oh, he needed the hard years. Yeah. Jeff got off light.

He did. He could have used a little dose of what I got for. He said, I think I was a little too soft on an old Jeppie color. But in Dad's defense, there were two prodigals, and it was the oldest and the youngest. So it was Bea and Jepp, and we had two totally different experiences. And I think we probably had a prodigal experience for two totally different reasons. Yeah. But we both did, which is kind of ironic as it worked out.

But you're right. So if you had actually had a child super late in life after Mia, This would have been the experience for it. All right. So we've talked enough. It's time to bring our guest down because I'm super excited about that. So we're going to take a break. When we come back, Missy and Jace will introduce our guest today.

So Lisa and I have started back on the road. Most of our events are centered around pro-life. That's why it's so important to us on this podcast because it impacts us. And here's a story about a woman named Evie. She never imagined she would become pregnant. doctors told her it wasn't possible. So when she found out she was expecting, fear took over. And her first pregnancy ended in abortion.

It was the decision that left her carrying a grief no one had prepared her for. Later, Evie reached out for help. And she reached out to a pre-born network clinic. And there she didn't find judgment. She found compassion, truth, and healing. For the first time and a long time, Evie finally felt hope. When she became pregnant again, everything was different. She returned to the clinic, excited, and when she saw her baby on ultrasound, when she heard that tiny heartbeat for the first time, it confirmed what she already knew in her heart.

Today, Evie's daughter is alive. Her heart beats freely outside the wound because an ultrasound was there at exactly the right moment. One ultrasound is just $28. All gifts are tax deductible, and 100% of your donation goes directly to saving babies. So we're asking you to join us to donate securely, dial pound 250, say the keyword baby, that's pound 250 baby. Or go to preborn.com slash unashamed. That's preborn.com slash unashamed.

So welcome back to Unashamed. We have our guest. Missy, you want to introduce our guest? Yes. I'm so excited. Okay, so Casey Van Norman, she's kind of a big deal. And she's amazing. And one of my favorite people on planet Earth, actually.

Wow. How long have y'all actually been friends? 2015. 15? Yeah. Okay. We went on a speaker trip with compassion to Nicaragua. Yes. Before we met Karina, we were two hours from Karina's house and didn't know it. And what I love about our friendship is we have been pretty intentional at least once every year to see each other. You miss last year. And I miss last year.

But it's okay. You're forgiven. But we made it up this year. We sit in the same spot because the boys go duck honey. my husband and my son it's like they cannot wait for the weekend once a year they get to go duck hunting with Jason and my son's 17 and all in Jason's got them all into the ducks We got

It gets in your blood Oh Well somebody needed to warn me I mean I've watched Jason Missy a little bit But for Christmas Three huge boxes show up And I'm like What is this? This is Christmas present

It's all he asked for Nothing else He unwraps one It's a bunch of ducks They're called decoys decoys. Are we shipping dead ducks now? He's so excited.

That would be crazy if a bunch of ducks were blown out. All I see are a bunch of ducks in my house now, Jace, everywhere, tripping over. So you wonder if decoys weren't they weren't on Casey. I mean, she thought they were ducks. Look, all these ducks. Boy, it would be hard to tenderize these. They're so pretty, too. They're hard to sign, too.

Even the decoys are so pretty. I'm like, how are you shooting these? They're so pretty. The green head? Who's got the green head? Yeah. What duck has the green head? That's a mallard.

That's a mallard. And look, it was your son's goal to shoot a mallard. We went this morning. There we are. We're going to ask about the hunt. Did you go to? No. Oh, okay.

Oh, I loved her response last night. Missy said, are you going to a case? And she went, that. Which is what Missy would. I want to sit in my pajamas with Missy for hours on end. That's what we did today. And that is exactly. They left us this morning.

We were in our pajamas on the couch. They walked in at noon. They said, what have y'all been doing? We've been doing this right here. Yeah. We have a year to download in a weekend. So you're not into the idea of wearing four layers of clothes, putting face paint all over your face. Oh, I am in Minneapolis.

No one in their right mind puts on four layers of clothes. Let me tell you. It's hot today, but normally in January. Well, funny conversation last night. Before I tell you about the duck, she asked me something about if I had ever done a sauna. And I didn't know what that was. I had to Google it mid-conversation, which I did. By the way, this is what I was on the podcast.

And look, when I looked at these images, I thought, they took those old phone booths and made use of it. Because it looked like an old phone, you remember when you had to pay a quarter or a dime, whatever was? What I said was, babe, you've seen shows where men come in with the towels wrapped around their waist and they sit down and they're like, oh, and they're sweating. And then what did you say? Can I say this? I said, I don't go into sweaty rooms with naked men for any reason. Now, look, if you want to America? Have you ever been to a Turkish prison?

No, if you want to, it's fine. It's just not in my DNA. Missy, you're not helping me with this image right now. Sanas have, you know, they're better now. No Botox and no sauna. What I decided, and then I gave them a withering barrage of how you sweat in the wilderness. this, which I did today. I walked two miles.

We had knocked down a couple of birds, which shows you, Al, we had a moment today. And look, we're... Because there was low expectation on the... Can't be any lower. We have no water and we have no ducks. Those are two essential things you need for ducking us. I know you don't know much about it. They don't have any water.

You know, any ducks. You're like, this is almost like hunting ducks in the Chick-fil-A parking lot. Your luck. Hey, come over here, Doug. So, we go to... We go down there. It's 70-something degrees this morning. The fog was so thick.

I barely made it down there. I mean, it was not visible. We get down there, and I thought, she mentioned this sauna, because sweat was pouring. And they're very, they're very, you know how women look when they cried and they have that stuff on their eyes?

What is they called? Mascara. Mascara. Wow. I had my face pant, and it was dripping today. You speak days today. It looked like I was crying because I was sweating so much. And guess what happened?

The Lord said, here you go, Jace. The Van Normans are in town. This young man has found his love for duck hunting. You named him, Blake. Yes, like a body of water, yes. And we went out there and killed double-digit numbers, four mallards. Young man, he's a pretty good shot. If you didn't know, they have green heads.

Oh, I know that. And we took pictures, we had the green heads. up we're all acting like, I mean, it was, it was. Well, he had told me that he had been saving this for you guys. And there was only 20 ducks on the whole property. And guess what? They kill most of them. Yeah, we only saw 20.

There was 20 ducks. We wiped out that whole colony. But guess what? There are millions of ducks. But that little pocket, they're no longer with us. We call that the Van Norman pocket. The fact that they wound up where we were tells you how confused they were. and how lost they were.

And they were just trying to find a place of no regrets, and we provided that for them today. There's another reason why we don't have a sauna, and it's a reason why I told you one year and you never let me forget. It's because how do I sweat? Ugly. I don't sweat pretty.

I don't listen. Yes, but I'll never let me forget it. She said, I don't sweat pretty. The way she said it, it just has burned into my brain. We're just reviewing it all. This, unashamed after dark. By the way, Casey is a counselor. She brings us out in people.

That's the deal. The most honest version, yes. We invited you here because you do a wonderful ministry. Y'all took over town. You're married. Look, and I have to confess this, I've never confessed this. I know. When you first introduced your husband, you said, and here's the governor.

And I thought, this guy's the governor of Texas. I thought he was much older. So then I just assumed for years that he was some sort of politician at some point of his life, but it's not true. So do you want to tell us why you call him the governor? Well, that was his college nickname because he never met a stranger. He never met a stranger. He says it's just cowboy, Texas, cowboy as they come.

But our very first date, all right, he, the roads are icy. It's February. We're not supposed to be out. But, of course, Justin Van Norman called. And I said yes, because he's the governor. Yeah. And you got to put that at the end. The governor.

Yeah. You have to say it like that. Oh, I got it. I got it. Okay. So I said yes, we go to a place called Ritas. It's not there anymore. And Nacadoches were from East Texas.

So, you know, the pine trees. It's really not far. Louisiana, yeah. Very close. Yeah, it really is. We're right on the line. And Nacadoches grew up. And we go to Ritas.

And we have a great conversation. We're just catching. up and of course we do the whole thing with each other where you know we're not going to really date we're not interested in dating so let's just make the terms very clear we're not going to have a relationship I write like two months later where I love you but I you know expect that he's going to drop me off and maybe try to sneak a kiss or something like that so he drops me off and he's got his he is so cute I mean just the cutest thing is cowboy boots his wrangler starch to a T. And you know, the Wranglers, when you take them off, you can't move them.

Oh, yeah. So, sorry. His polo shirt from probably still wearing it from the seventh grade, you know, plaid shirt. And he drops me off and he walks me up to the front door. And literally, like, doesn't touch me at all. And just walks me straight up. And he goes, well, thank you, ma'am. I can't you? Yeah. And just almost. Like you had just served them a dairy queen, right? I am stunned.

I am like, I mean, we're grown adults. We're in our 20s here. And I am like looking at this guy like, did he just thank you me and me at the end of a date? So he turns around and starts to walk away. And I go, well, I guess I expected a hug or something. And he looked, turned around and he goes, don't. Homer Simpson. It was the, I was done.

I was totally his. It was the most endearing moment, truly. That's when you know you got it. Justice, that's when you know you got it. Don't. And then of course. Justin, you need to write a book. He's in our studio.

And Lake is here too. He needs to write a book. Well, Casey and I became like, I don't even know how to describe it. Our guards completely came down with each other. and we were just able to connect immediately. And, you know, that's kind of rare to do that, especially when you're, I mean, famous, I guess, you know. We were in the middle of Duck Dynasty,

and my guard is always up by this point, by 2015, but it just came down with her, with you. And I realized we have the same mindset. We're a lot of like, even though our paths are completely the opposite, we are a lot alike in the way that we think about other people in the way that we love the Lord. And so I, she asked me, she was writing a book, she is a talented and accomplished speaker and writer.

So this is not just some rando. I'm telling you, she is very accomplished. She spoke for extraordinary women conferences for years and is amazing. She's amazing. So I really relied on her a lot for support in my life for things that we were going through. even with the fame.

And we have talked about on here when we had the weekend of counseling, when we did the eight weeks of counseling in a day and a half, voila. Yeah, with our family. This was your guy. Casey did it. And so she and her with her godly wisdom and ultimate knowledge of how to transform problems in a family to glorify the Lord.

get them back on track and glorify the Lord. She did that in a day and a half with our family and set us on a brand new trajectory in our family. And I have her to thank. And so she's amazing. I can say that, you know, just because of what you did hands on. And so I would like, I would love for you to be able to share a little bit about your past and your story because your book, nothing wasted.

I have given all of my copies away once, and you resupplied me, and I gave them all away again. The last one was for Mia, because she's on a trip this weekend, and she took it, because she adores you. Well, Mia has my heart. She has my heart. And she's so awesome, too. She reaches out and text, and we still talk, and she checks on me. So I don't know about you, but New Year's usually bringing the idea of wanting new challenges in your life. And certainly for me, last year's new year, brought me into the idea that I needed to lose some weight.

And that's not always easy when you get my age, 60 years old by then. And I've tried all the different diets, keto, paleo, weight watchers, intermittent fasting. I went through the same drill and always gained the weight back. And usually I just said I didn't have the right willpower or the right discipline. But the truth is, it was never really about willpower to begin with. There's only one thing that determines whether your body burns fat or stores. And if you don't fix that, your diet is going to fail. It's about metabolism.

At PhD weight loss, they've identified that, and they build a plan that works with your body and not against it. And I'm living proof because here's a picture of me at the beginning of 2025. Here I am now. You see, I've lost 80 pounds feeling great. I'm off of most of my meds. I don't use my CPAP anymore, much more active, able to do a lot more. So if you call now, they'll give you two free weeks in the program.

And they pay for your food so you can finally see real results without more trial and error. If you're done with yo-yo dieting and want clarity, call Ph.D. Weight Loss now and mention Al. No more guessing, just answers. Call 864-644-1900 and say, Al. That's 864-644-4-1900, or visit my PhDwate loss.com. You know, you guys made it so easy. And Al, I told them, you know, we don't have to, talk about the therapy thing. This is, this can be a very, this is private and I know therapy has a stigma sometimes in the church. And I think, you know, I grew up in the 80s and this was not something my grandparents did. They didn't talk about their problems. And it really was a sign of weakness and really true psychotherapy. I'm a psychotherapist, clinical psychotherapist, that didn't really

come on the scene until the 80s and 90s. And now we have PET scans that are proving more of the neuroscience and the brain development of a child and what they're observing. And so it's, but it's still for some people, you know, in their 40s and 50s, this is still not something that's widely talked about, especially if you didn't grow up in a home that felt emotionally safe. And I'm not using, I don't like a lot of the cliche words. And I think that's what Missy and I bonded on originally is we, you know, TikTok and, you. you know, everything viral has taken all of these words like therapy and safe and boundaries and trauma and they've over-exaggerated and overplayed and the words have lost meaning.

Yeah. Yeah. And that really breaks my heart because we're overusing them and we're not using them in the right way. And so now I think, you know, anyway, all that to say, I just appreciate that you guys are willing to be vulnerable and open about that and that you reached out to me. It was. I was begging you, if you remember. Well, I just remember being super intimidated because to go back to when we first met on the compassion trip in Nicaragua, we were on a people mover. We had not spoken two words to each other. And your schedule is pretty packed.

And they're like showing you, they want you to be an ambassador. And they do an incredible job. Compassion. They do an incredible job. They equip the community with the resources to serve. you know, they're not doing toxic charity. They're doing charity so well by equipping the people in the town to serve their people. But we're really just, sometimes it gets awkward because you're like observing people

that live a whole other life than you do. And I'm in a people mover with Missy Robertson behind me. And this is in the height of Doug Dynasty. Yeah. You know, the height of the show. I mean, y'all are in the height of fame. And I have just written a book and it's come out. But as far as that goes, I'm a nobody.

You know, I'm like, what am I doing? And there were some other people there, writers, speakers, comedians, and they're just, you know, getting people with some sort of influence that could advocate for. Anyway, Missy's behind me in the van, and Justin is next to me, and I remember being like, play it cool, dude. Oh, my goodness. Play it cool. Missy Robertson is right behind you. And he's like, just Did he turn around and give her a thank you, man.

Oh, that's just about, Al. He totally embarrassed me. He was like, well, hi there. You know, right? Well, and to give Justin, I mean, because when I first met him, it looked like he had just come off a bull, you know, riding a bull. But then we started talking to him, like, this guy's got a kind of a soft spirit to him, you know, and he's kind.

Well, you get to know Justin in her book, nothing wasted. Not that I'm going to push that book or anything, but I am because then later. Nothing wasted. God uses the stuff you wouldn't. I love the tag. Well, it made me think of the verse when you were talking about that people don't,

because we, before you came on in our first segment, we were talking about how people, for us fight and argue and probably say four letter words on the way to the church building. And then people say, how are you doing? Great. Everything is fine. The Lord is good. You know, what a day.

But you read verses in first genre, it says, confess your sins and you will be healed. but most people, I think, now our family was different. Everything was transparent, out in the open. I heard about the birds and bees at about eight years old, and I was like, wow, I didn't know this was going on here. But I think most people think, you know, confess your sins and you will be crucified. And so it is hard for people to open up.

But I thought about the reason y'all met, and you said the same mindset, well, you both have the Holy Spirit of God. And I just think that draws people. And the Holy Spirit is referred to as a counselor. And so, yes, we have the Holy Spirit, but also a lot of good counseling comes from other spirit-filled people that are put in your life. Well, most people are just scared of what they don't know yet. And we don't want to change.

And I think that's where we bonded is you guys have always been incredibly authentic. It's why people watch you and want to be a part of it. what you're doing. Everything you do is transparent and honest. And, you know, that is where we, I was telling you, you're asking me these questions on the bus. And, you know, there's nothing, I mean, I was thinking, too, like, we're driving in these dirt roads bouncing up and down and and we're watching women who are eight months pregnant carry five gallons of water on their shoulder. So it's like all the fame is gone. All the, all the glitz and glamour in my, doesn't matter anymore. This is actually what matters. This is humanity.

And so all that was stripped away for us really quickly, which I feel like is a gift for our friendship. And we were really forced into just being sisters in Christ. And you started asking me my life. I started asking, you know, and it just was Missy and Casey bonding over. I think our value of Holy Spirit speaking to us and authenticity. How can we reach others for Christ by just being honest about what we've gone through? So that is where I'm at now. I haven't always been there.

I've had a lot of deception in my life. But what I told Missy early on is I wanted to be a spokesperson and write this book around, I am a believer. I am a true blue going to heaven when I die. There is not a time in my life that I don't remember Jesus coming after me, truly. I was born in the church nursery, and I had the very kind of traditional, cliche Baptist upbringing. in East Texas, the Bible Belt of the world. But I remember him pursuing me.

I could not get away from him. And I had a very personal salvation experience with him alone at nine years old. I just, I knew that he loved me. But my family was really hard. Yeah. What I observed was a lot of neglect, abandonment, and a lot of alcoholism. And as a teenage girl, man, you are so desperate for a father's love, protection, acceptance. And you're going to go look for that when you don't have it in something.

For me, it was men. And, you know, my 17-year-old son is here right now, and he knows. He knows all of this. And I am raising him to think about what a woman is made to need and how God has knit her to be in a man's side, to, yes, support him, help him speak into that, but to be under his wing and cared for and protected. And when a woman doesn't have that, it is in her eternal DNA to look for.

and so, you know, hopefully guiding him with my mistakes. And I say mistakes with a lot of grace now in a sense of I also believe in a sovereign God who... Redaiming. Yes, yes, so much redemption of my life story. And... But, man, I was just... I was such a rebel. I was so rebellious, looking for love in all the wrong places.

And lived that very... fake life of a Christian saying all the right things, showing up to church, checking all the boxes. My story, though, I just wanted to be clear, is I was a believer in sin. And that's a part of that book, Nothing Wasted. I wrote that with a publisher going, y'all need to know what you're getting into here.

I'm not going to write this. I'm not going to write this from, I didn't know the Lord, thought I did, but didn't, and I made all these mistakes, and then something big happens and brings me back. No, I'm going to write this from. I knew exactly what I was doing.

Wow. And I did. I was saved as safe could be. I loved God with all my heart and soul, but I did not believe that he loved me back. Wow. And that is a different trajectory of living your life as a Christian. That is free person and captive.

Right. Yeah. So you can be a different trajectory. Christian all day long and be a captive to the lie, to the sin. And you can put different pants on the sin and it's still sin, you know. So whether I'm sleeping with a guy or whether I'm drinking or whether I'm lying or whatever, you know, I'm just changing the pants, you know, but the lie was the same. God, I don't believe you at the end of the day really love me. Yeah. I think you could speak for a lot of people like that who've had rough childhoods.

I know people who still, like to this day, are wanting to be loved so much that their outward actions are just crying out for it. And that's what, I guess, what you were doing, what you've confessed to in that book. It's not a new book. So it's not like this is a book tour at all. Yeah, you wrote a lot of books, but that one. This is the one that, well, you asked me when it was a manuscript to read it. Yeah. And it was such an honor.

And I did so. I felt, I know every aspect of it. I think I read it multiple times and I've given so many away. But that's where you learn to know about what true forgiveness is too with your husband. Absolutely. And I have to tell this really funny story. So we were nine months in Austin, living in Austin with Mia and going to school back and forth. And Casey drives over from College Station, Brian, College Station area, and kind of sits in with my women's group.

I had started a women's Bible study at our house. And she brings her books and all that and passing them out. And anyway, you go home that night. You leave that night and go home. And so Jessica, you know, Jessica and Jep are right around the corner at the time. And so Jessica takes hers home. The next morning I walk in, I don't know, some time of day, walk in, and Jep is sitting there with his feet on the coffee table halfway through the book.

And he looked up and he went, this woman's awesome. I'm like, Jessica. Such a Jep. He's not even reading it. Jeff is reading it. You know? And he was like, and the governor. And by this time I'm like, the governor, who's the governor?

Same problem. Yeah, so I was like, oh, I know him by Justin, but okay, I know she calls him the governor in the book. He was like, I said, oh, yeah, he's amazing. And Jeff went, can I meet them? It was like a little child. I said, I think I can work that out, Jeff. And you know Jeff called Justin.

Yes, he did. I love Jeff's heart in that moment. He called Justin and he just said, thank you. Thank you for the grace and the forgiveness that you showcase it's teaching beautiful. And that was a really special. Well, I only knew about you through your relationship with Missy. And I'd met you guys once somewhere in a green room or someplace we met when y'all were visiting them. But I knew nothing else.

And so just when you don't know somebody, of course, now and modern times, you Google them. And so that's what I did, just to get some things about some of the stuff you had done. And I start, you did a piece with CBN at some point. I don't know when it was back when you did a book probably. And I was reading the piece and it was very good. And I'm reading it. And I'm like, the more I read it, the more I'm like, well, this is me and Lisa. I'm like, your story and our story are so similar.

And we came to somebody of the same conclusions about, you know, what God does out of brokenness and what he does out of grace. It was incredible. And so, I mean, I really had an affinity for you guys just reading the story before we ever had this opportunity. Thank you. And now I can't wait to read the book. But I wanted to know, like, how that, how do you speak to that to folks? Because you're obviously a professional and doing what you do to help people, but then you've lived through a lot of stuff.

And so how does that help you in terms of we feel like for us having experienced some things, and which sin is never an advantage, but when you make it through some things, you're able to help some people in a unique way. Do you feel like that helps you in terms of helping people? Yes. I mean, don't you got, I mean, just to be at the bottom of yourself. Yeah.

Because Christianity, God, faith, they can all be conceptual, you know. It can all be this thing that we just hope is true. But I do think there's something that has to happen in all of our lives that bring it home, it is real. Yeah, I agree. And for me, my husband's words, which were totally of the Holy Spirit, he will tell you that, I'll say that in the book,

he takes no credit for his words in that moment. But his words to me, I don't know how to not love you. Yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one. That's a good one. Well, and if your problem was thinking, God didn't love you, that was a really good line.

Right up there with howdy ma'am. Oh, yeah. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you, ma'am. You know, but the powerful part of that moment is we've been married. We have kids. We're in our late 20s, and our life on the outside looks perfect.

Big house. He's got a great job, white picket fence literally. I'm in, I work at the church. I'm doing all the things. And I have this deep, dark lie. that is just growing and building for years in my life. Now, it starts out with, you're not wanted. I mean, we all have our lie.

We all have something based on our past that comes to surface. Usually in our 16 to 20 years, you know, we start to go. Is this true? Do I have any evidence of the contrary in my life? Are my parents showing me different? Are these people showing me different? I'm at school with? Our friendships, all of that.

They either confirm or deny the lie. That's why it's really important young people who you hang out with. And where you hang out, it's really important because they're either confirming or denying the lie. That's it. And the enemy, it loves it. The enemy could not get in me because I was a born-again believer. I know that to be true. But he can use everything that we give him like darts, weapons against us.

Flaming arrows, right? Yes. He watches us. He's a lion. He's prowling around. And he is taking what we say, what we don't do, our knowledge. non-verbal, all of that, and ready to use that to just help us believe that lie in our life. And, you know, I was giving him everything.

I mean, I was jumping from guy to guy's bed. I was, you know, living one total facade of life. And I truly, when I met Justin, after that night, I'm not kidding you. And he turned around and he gave me a hug. He did give me a hug. But I was like, I'm marrying that cowboy. I'm marrying that cowboy. But really, here's what's so messed up about the moment.

My sin was still, my lie was so true, it'd become so familiar. My lie had become so comfortable that I was not wanted. Even in that moment of hopefulness that I'd met this guy that was pure, had not had sex before, was a believer, was going to love me the way that I'd always wanted to be loved, I was saying, if I marry this guy, I prove everybody wrong. if I can just marry this guy, then all the stuff that people think I'm going to become and not be, I'm going to prove them wrong. I mean, that's how coded it was into my being.

And so we just kind of live on that. I mean, first years of marriage, having babies, you're caught up in that world, all that. And so it's really not difficult for the enemy. and I won't even get, let's take this up, because people, my critics, think that maybe I give the enemy too much credit of, well, the enemy just made you sit,

no, no, no, okay, let me just take all the credit myself. Clear the air right here at the table. I take all the credit for my decisions. That was my responsibility to cheat on my husband. But the bed was, ready. You know what I'm saying? Like the soil was ready from years and years.

And it did start. As a therapist, this is how I help people not live in condemnation. That's right. Because shame and condemnation is keeping them from confession. And we want people to confess and be free. Yeah. Yes.

And to see ourselves a way that Jesus sees us. And so if I'm sitting here, you know, there's no hope for you. No, I want them to walk through their past. and see that God all along was had a way for them. Nothing was missed by him. You are not a disappointment to him.

Had he wanted to direct change course at any time, he could have. I believe that God is that sovereign. And to allow me to walk the road. And I have my own choices in that too, but somewhere God's sovereignty and our free will, it's a little both-hand and I do believe that my rock bottom

was to sit at the lowest point the woman I said I would never become the woman I judged before from my choir loft robe with my cross lapel singing in the choir and watching that woman come in the back

of the church and literally think how dare she show her face here Yeah Gross That's gross I never That version of me is dead

I don't even know who that is I don't know who that person is So and I see you get emotional with it I don't know that I've said that about Lisa For many years When she would get up and retell her testimony I had forgotten a lot of things in her past

And I would forget again Because I don't know who that person is when she would get up and speak, it was like she was talking about someone else, which she actually was because she was made new, she was a brand new person. But that's what the Lord does when he redeems. Yes. He makes you brand new. It's a new birth, and he makes you brand new, and he can do it every day. That's what the amazing thing about him is, so many. But I love everything about you, you know, and I don't, I mean, the mistakes that you've made, the sins that you've, created in your marriage and in your life and all of that, your husband doesn't know how to not love you. And I don't know who that person is.

But I did want to say that Mia, when you talked about your critics. Oh, yeah, yeah. I want to mention this. Can we talk, mention this? Because I didn't know about this till last night. But Mia, this past weekend, she was home and I was telling her, Casey and Justin are coming. What? What?

I'm going to miss them. All this different stuff. Like, trying to figure out a way to get home because she wanted to see y'all so bad. but she said, did Casey have an affair? In the kitchen, I was cooking, and I was like, yes, Mia. And she went, what in the world? There, she has some haters.

She has some haters on social media. And I said, like, recently? Like, I don't really, I'm not understanding the context of what she was saying because I don't scroll social media. So I don't watch the reels and all that. So I don't know anything about it. But I told her, I said, have you not read her? her book? And she was like, what book? And I realized this, she's just up becoming. She's growing up.

She's just now a new adult. You know, no, no, no, no, no. I gave it to her. Okay. No, no, no, I said, because she's a reader. She read like 324 books in 2025. I mean, she's a reader. And so I said, I went and got my last copy with your handwritten note about how many you're in the stack or whatever. And I was like, I need this back. But you need to read this on the trip. But when I asked you about it, there are critics from her time, she was living outside of the love of the Lord, basically. And right now it's happening. Yeah.

There are some people who are being viral moment. And my kids laughed because my whole thing is like, man, I think it'd be so fun. Going viral is on my bucket list. And my kids are like, Mom. Not this way. But not this way. And so I did. But it reminds me of that story.

And I'm like, well, the Lord humbled me real quick. But it reminds me of the John 8 story, which it's not just some story that happened 2,000 years ago. And the giant, you remember the woman called an adultian day, everybody's with the rocks. And oh, here comes Jesus with a strange take on this, you know, you without sin, throw the first stone. That has been repeating itself in churches and lives before that happened and after

and is presently probably happening. And so we were talking about this last night because you've done, you've been on other podcasts. And people with a story as rugged as yours, they tend to sensationalize the dark side because it's easy what they call clickbait. And they're lacking or editing the sensational love of God that brought you out of it, which is what should be the sensation. By the way, Lisa got the same, we got the same criticism. It must have been the same critics, I guess, because when she explained the reason of the lie. That's why when you were just describing, it's exactly what she says. Because her lie was

because she was molested as a child. And so then her lie coming out of that was her only purpose was to please men. And when she saw me, her husband, much like Justin was to you, she saw her, what she saw was her savior, a white knight, the person is going to bring her out of that. Unfortunately, I don't have the capacity to do that. There's only one that could do that. Oh, and look, I'll have, I'll confess my sentence for, that is the thing. I guess that is. We all get fessy. Because look, I would preach the right sermons. I know the verses.

I know the verses. I know there's not a place you can fall that God can't reach you. But when it happened in my family, I called Al, and I was like, what are you crazy? Are you actually entertaining the idea of going back with this woman? And I basically disfellowship my own brother for at least two years. That was a hard time. And I was angry. And I thought I don't know how to not love you, but I didn't have the articulation to say it.

But that's how I felt. You acted in it. I did. But back to what we were talking about, they said, so the things that, and she read it, I'm like, Missy, I won't read it. But she said, they're saying that I'm just trying to make an excuse for my sin. Like, you know, you're giving this reason, so you're not taking the blame for it. And she's like, I know it was me. I did it.

I'm just giving you the reason. Now I understand the reason. But understanding the reason is what provides you then the freedom to look for Jesus in the whole place. That's the kin, right. Because my goodness, I promise you, I walked in a lot of shame and condemnation. I got all the punishment. And it was wild out right after. So it was two to three years of pretty consistent infidelity.

Yeah. And it came out on its own. Well, the Lord did it. And I would beg him to bring it to the light many times because I was getting sick. And I really was actually getting sick. I didn't know that I was getting sick like with cancer. But I noticed, I mean, I'm 28 years old. So I'm like, but my hair's starting to fall out.

My skin is changing. I'm weak. I mean, I felt like I could breathe sometimes. And now being a therapist, I mean, I know what my brain was doing, all the unprocessed trauma, how it stores itself in the body. This is all real, by the way. But I'm living it, you know. And I start crying out to the Lord that I am not brave enough or courageous enough to say this out loud. I need you, Jesus, to bring this to the light for me, please.

and I am not kidding you, I can tell you the day, the time, I talk about it in the book, I think I start the book on Chapter 1 with that moment of feeling the most freedom. Now, I know hell is coming. I know that. I mean, I fully expect for Justin to walk away, take the kids, everybody to reject me, my own family to cast me out, my church to cast me out, and a lot of that happened. Yeah. But the freedom I felt for the first time in my life to be honest, fully honest, fully naked,

like the woman sitting there in the sand with everybody is looking at you. I was internally free. I felt joy. I felt peace. And I mean, look, we'd go through it. And I actually got sick. A year later, just about a year later, I, I was diagnosed with stage four non-Hodgkins lymphoma.

And we then walked the road of recovering from our almost marriage collapse and emotional collapse and my trauma and then are walking through chemotherapy for two years. So I will never forget when I got a letter in the mail in the middle of my chemo, bald head, the whole nine yards, sick as a dog. And my sweet husband is trying to process his anger, his feelings. his fear, taking care of a three-year-old and a six-year-old, and taking me back and forth to treatments and can't hardly touch me for almost a year because everything feels like it's breaking. And I got a letter in the mail from an anonymous person, which we love that.

I love it. Saying that I'm glad that you're getting the punishment that you deserve. Wow. Yeah. And, you know, I did not get upset at this person. I was so sad that they too do not know the freedom I feel. And I'm dying. I am literally dying.

The doctors have told me you got five years. Yeah, yeah. And I feel more alive and more free and more loved. than I have ever felt in my life. Wow. And that was my moment. Yeah. That was my Isaiah moment.

That was like, where do you want me, Lord send me? You touch my lips with this coal, and I am forever yours. It burns. But I am convinced you are who you said you are. Yeah. I love it. Now look, we're almost out of time. But at some point from there, you realize what you're called to, not what you're

saved from, which is all. always there. And y'all took over a small town there. And you have the name of, what is, now how should I depict that? Go ahead. Let me. Tell us. Well, I, in short, wanted to create a place that I needed. I mean, that's really, I needed people, I needed relationships, I needed belonging. I needed not to be a number. I'd been in so many clinics and hospitals and so sick and had so, I was just a number. And I thought, what if a place existed where you can get healing resources, mental health counseling, work through your past, doctors, nutritionist, chiropractors, physical fitness, the whole nine yards. Coffee is so healing. So good medicine.

This is Jace's coffee. I'd choke that bad boy down. But I thought, what if all that existed under one roof and could be done, not in a preachy environment or a religious environment, in a safe, warm, biblically based environment, a Christian context of we're going to let you be wherever you are. This is safe. You can show up wherever you are. If you can be cussing God, if that's where you need to be. But we are going to bring you back to the truth every time. We're going to tell you the truth about your life and how much he loves you until you believe it.

And I thought, I needed that, and I needed that with other people. And I also needed just practical healing. So two years ago, we totally remodeled our old historic home in downtown Bryan College Station, Texas. And I actually treasure hunted the yard. Yes, you did. Built in 1905. I was hoping for a big treasure. We opened a nonprofit.

The Lord, when we bought the house in COVID at Rock Bottom, he said, this is not yours. I want you to take this. I want you to make it a beautiful space of dignity for healing to happen with your community. So as hard as it was, because she's so beautiful. We did. And we turned it over. And in August of 23, we opened Madewell House. And you can learn more about it at madewellhouse.com.

We started with two staff members, and we were serving about 80 people a month, and through only Jesus, we have 38 staff members and we serve 3,500 people a month. 3,500 a month. Wow. A month. That's amazing. It's unreal.

We were out walking earlier today in the neighborhood, and we ran across some girls that are staying with Corey's parents right now, and she had on her Madewell shirt. Casey did, and we were talking, introducing ourselves and all that, and they were like, what do you do? And Casey said, well, I run Madewell House, and they were like, you're, you're not. you're made, we know made well. They know about made well. So it's really awesome.

So here's how you'll remember it. So if you keep getting bigger, I have a made well part two. And you name it, well made made well. Are you going to run that? Boy, Jason, you're well. Jay should start a marketing company. And I didn't even get to ask you about the Rehab Hagar book, but that you just.

I found that fascinating because I have a servant about that. But we'll have to bring you back next time to do that. But thank you for being so transparent and vulnerable today. It's so good for our audience. And to authenticate your life is so important because that's how people see Jesus the most. And so you did that today. So thank you for that. She does it every day, by the way.

Awesome. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast. And don't miss an episode. by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.