Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1299 | The Same Dark Forces That Killed Jesus Still Drive Culture Today

Episode Date: March 27, 2026

Christian sparks a little "beach envy" by checking in from Florida while John Luke is stuck with the oily pond next door, and the guys get a lighthearted update on life with newborn twins. Zach and Al help trace how Jesus entered a world driven by power, fear, and control. With Rome, religious leaders, and the crowd all fighting to protect their influence, the same forces driving their decisions still show up today, pointing to a bigger story where surrender—not control—defines true power. In this episode: Matthew 3, verses 13–17; Matthew 4; Mark 9; John 1, verse 29; Psalm 139; Psalm 51; Hosea 11, verse 1; John 11; Acts 6; John 18; 1 Corinthians 15 Today’s conversation is about Lessons 4 of Ancient Christianity taught by visiting Hillsdale Professor of History Kenneth Calvert. Take the course with us at no cost to you! Sign up at http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/. More about Ancient Christianity: Christ entered the world during the reign of Caesar Augustus. The tensions between Christianity and the Roman Empire shaped the daily practice of the Christian faith and led many Romans to distrust and persecute the early Christians. But Christianity also benefitted from the Roman world. And when Rome collapsed in the West, Christianity provided the hope for preserving civilization. In this free, eleven-lecture course, Professor Kenneth Calvert will explore: How the Jewish, Greek, and Roman cultures all contributed to preparing the world to hear the Gospel. Why many Romans distrusted and persecuted the early Christians. The inspiring stories of Christ, His apostles, and faithful ones throughout the first four centuries of Christianity. The arguments of key early Christian apologists—Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin, Athanasius, and more—who defended and defined the Christian faith amidst the animosity of the Roman world. The conversion of Constantine and how he brought stability to Rome, and how the rivalry between his sons almost returned Rome to paganism. How Augustine’s writings helped preserve the message of Christianity during the collapse of the Roman Empire in the West. You will discover the uncertainties, trials, and triumphs of the earliest Christians as they confronted controversies within the faith and persecutions from outside it. Join us today to discover the improbable and miraculous story of Christianity. Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Chapters00:00 Beach Envy04:55 Twin Update09:20 Why This Lecture Gets to the Heart of It All13:30 Why Jesus Didn’t Fit Any Cultural Box19:00 The Magi, Provision & God’s Bigger Plan29:30 Jesus as King vs. Rome’s Authority35:00 Pilate, Politics & the Pressure to Crucify41:30 Surrender & Why It Still Changes Everything — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, Unashamed Nation, here's the deal. We are taking the course with Hillsdale every Friday. We're doing the ancient Christianity course right now, and we have something that we're excited to tell you about. We're going to do a contest. We are going to pick one listener to come down to Westminster or Louisiana and watch us record Unashamed. We're going to pay for it as well.

We're going to give you guys travel and lodging for you and a guest up to $1,000 each. All you have to do is take the ancient Christianity course with us at Hillsdale. finish all the quizzes and send us your certificate of completion. Once you finish the course, you upload your certificate at watchunashamed.com. You'll be entered in for the drawing. We're going to pick the winner by June. So you guys jump in there, finish it, take the course with us. It's been absolutely amazing.

I hope you guys will join us. I am unashamed. What about you? We are back on the Unashamed podcast. This is Unashamed for Hillsdale on Fridays. are going through the course called ancient Christianity. It's been absolutely phenomenal. You guys can take the course free with us at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com.

Take the course for free and we have a little prize, guys. You guys know about the contest, right? Are you all excited about it? I'm stoked for it. Yeah. So if you finish and you send us your certificate that you've actually finished this course, then we are going to have a drawing and we're going to invite one person and a guest, we're going to invite one person and a guest.

We're going to pay $1,000 each for you guys to come here and you can come hang out with us in West Monroe, on set, meet the cast, and watch the show. So we want you guys not just to take the course with us. We want you to finish the course. You guys, are y'all stacking up certificates like me? Oh, yeah. I haven't printed mine out like Alhouse. I have all mine printed, yeah.

I'm surprised they're not behind you in your studio right now. You know, that's a great idea, Christian. I should decorate my wall with my certificates. You should just get them on a plaque. Yeah, I like looking at them. It's a sense of accomplishment at the end of every course. And we want folks to send them in, right? Zach, is that what you said?

Yeah, send them in, send a man. And then we're going to draw, we're going to have a draw. And we'll put them in a basket. We'll do the whole. We may even bring on the podcast. We'll draw it. I hope Frank wins. How epic would that be?

I think I have to. Frank, if you're listening, if you're listening, Frank, please send in your certificate. But here's the deal, Frank. If you come and we share a meal together, you're probably not going to be so mean online anymore after we break bread together. So I hope Frank wins too. If Frank does win, I promise you it was not rigged. I love it when we folks are sitting in with us. A live audience. I mean, we all speak in public, you know, and do a lot of that. So I think it's always better with a few people in studio when that can happen. So it would be exciting to have somebody in. Right now, it would just be John Luke.

It's just me. None of us are in the actual studio. Christian is in an undisclosed location. But I did see a picture of the window you're looking out and it's very pretty there. It is very pretty. It's a sunny day at the beach. Are you 30A? Is that where you're at down your old stomping grounds?

Yeah, we're in the old stopping grounds. Now it's a disclosed location. Have you ever heard my bet on 30A? Now it's a, yeah, now it's no longer a disclosed. Well, I mean, it's a big place. I mean. I think I've heard your bit. Yeah, you're not a fan.

I wouldn't hear it. You're not a fan. By the time this airs, Christian will be long gone from 30A. That's true. It is beautiful. It's beautiful down here this week, though, because I'm just up, up the beach from Christian, you know, to the west. But the water yesterday, we had lunch at a restaurant on the beach. It is, I mean, gorgeous.

And there's a lot of people from up north down here because of different spring breaks have already begun. And so I saw a few lobsters walking around. I love when the people from up north come down, they just go out there, just no sunscreen, no anything. You get in the sun, and then they look just red. You can always tell. Yeah, you can tell the inexperienced beachgoers. It's actually a beautiful area. My problem with 30A is not.

I think it's one of the most beautiful beaches in the state of Florida. I grew up in Florida. So I'm a native Floridian, which is a very rare thing to be actually born in the state of Florida. I was born there. There's a lot of transplants, yeah. A lot of transplants. And it's just so crowded. I mean, we went last year.

At least it's cheap. At least it's cheap down there, Zay. It's not very expensive. Yeah. Yeah, it's cheap. You just got to pick the right time that goes. I'll help you next. time. My advice to be this, if you look in your bank account and you're like, I have way too much money,

I have to get rid of some of this. I just want to waste it. Then I would say what you did is book you a trip to 30A and that'll help clean out your bank account. It's a good idea. It's a good idea. It's a joke, man. No joke. Well, the last lecture we did was lecture. Yeah. I was actually at the beach yesterday, too, with the kids, the lake beach. the lake beach similar at willies out yeah yeah and the kids are catching minnows and then they got me to go over there and look at the the pretty water it was like the rainbow oil spill that was going on in there so not quite 30A beach but we're at the beach pretty water hey well john lee since you're there tell us about how's it going with your twins and all that we've forgot to ask you on the last episode people i'm sure are wondering

Yeah, twin updates. It's actually been going super good. It's really, I mean, we've been just thinking going on it because it is gone about as good as it can. We've been saying with these twins, it's definitely more than one, but it's not twice as hard. And I think that it's partly just because they're really great babies,

but also... You're saying the twins? The twins. You're saying twins are definitely more than one? Having twins is definitely more than having one child, but it's not twice as hard. Yeah, it's two, right? Yeah.

I'm saying, are you saying, I'm saying the amount of... He's saying it's like one and a half. Yeah, I would say it's like one point three times harder than having one baby. Yeah, but the way you said that was... You'd have to be a Dungeons and Dragons Master. I got it. Yeah, you could me because you were like, you know, having twins is definitely more than one. I'm like, yeah, it's two.

Yeah. And then you see what I'm saying? Like, it was, it just confused me the way you, the way you phrased that. I totally got what it said. This is our, your brain is way up here. And I'm like, that made complete sense. But you needed him to explain it more kind of like ethereally.

So you're saying that the work, you're talking about the work. Talking about the work of having twins is more than the. The work of having twins is not as hard. hard as having it's not like you've got one baby and that work is an amount of work

and then you double that amount of work to have twins it's not that I just confuse myself on that one see I'm like explain it to me like I'm five and Zach is like

explain it to me like I'm 80 it's not as hard as I thought it was gonna be just wisdom but the other day I counted so how many kids do you got how many kids you got total five kids

kids total. Is that five times harder than ever? That's why, though. If you want to do that, if you went from one, yeah, once you have five kids, you don't, like, it's like, I'll give the example, like, first kid, you're like, you're so paranoid about everything. You don't want them, like, touching stuff that's got germs on it. And then by the time you get to the fifth kid, like, they're running around with a butcher

knife, and you're like, put that down. Quit running with a butcher knife. Sit down if you're going to play with the butcher knife. you just don't you just kind of you get a lot more laid back so you guys are already there because you already had three kids so moving into this one you're just not going to you're not going to have the same level

of energy and like conviction over the matter you know what I mean? No I even think we're making our saying we even think going from three to five is still easier than going from zero to one yeah like that first one is I just think is always the toughest. I mean some

people say like one to two is harder but once you once you get past three it's just like well you already know what to do you know how to change the diaper you know how to do this wall you've got all the stuff so it's way easy at some point over the next couple months john looks going to provide us with the cold open involving a little so we so we just had a couple stay at our house this week we were at home obviously they're from north carolina they have seven and uh And the first time I met him, I was like, I mean, literally you're just what the stair step. You know, you just look at the ladder. And it's so interesting because they sent us a picture and they come through every year.

And every about third year, we're home there when they come and stay with us. And the great family that we met through the, through the podcast actually. And but they measure, you know how you like so in our house on one of the door frames, my grandkids do the measure every six months or a year. And, of course, some of Zach's crew and Melissa's kids are on there as well. Well, I never noticed it, but the lady that's her family was staying there, they've been doing measurements on the other doorframe. And I never even knew it.

And so I told Lisa, I said, you know, we're running basically a hotel when other families are doing their family measure, kid measurements on your doorframe. So they were showing us like the one who's in the middle of the seven now is taller than all the rest. You know, I guess all the height genetics went to him. So he's like, he's like 12, but he's taller than everybody else in his family. But it's on my doorframe. So there you go. I mean, I'm tracking this family.

Well, the other thing we're tracking right now is the history of the early and ancient church that we're all a part of, the ancient Christian. Nice segue. It's a nice segue there. If you guys are not taking this course with us, go to unshain for Hillsdale.com,

sign up for, take it with us. Last lecture was 42 minutes long on the lecture, which is longer than most of these. And I was kind of

surprised that we actually got through all of that history in the last podcast. You were like, man, that was a lot. There was a lot of

information, a lot of history. And I think you took copious notes. He said you've taken more notes off of that third lecture than,

Well, I took, because I, I'm the kind of person. I like writing things down as I'm listening because it helps it kind of register my brain. Then I go back usually if I'm going to turn that around and teach it or share it in some capacity, then I'll type it again. So it's just kind of how my brain works to access information. And so I took three full pages. And I mean, I was literally just having, you know, writer cramp taking notes from the last one. Now, this lecture on the life of Jesus was so fresh because we've been studying and teaching and leading discussion on the Gospels, Zach, for the last few, a couple of years on the

podcast. And so it was really, but, you know, it's like anything else, you can study something or listen someone else teach, and you always pick up things that you hadn't picked up before. That's why Bible study is so interesting and getting perspective is so interesting. And people asking questions or highlighting different things that you hadn't thought about. And so I love this one as well. This is the story of the gospel, you know, literally. And so this is like the life-changing events.

I would say this is, even though we're only like in the fourth lecture in the series, this really is the heart of the matter is the way I would describe this story. Yeah, what was so cool about this one for me. It was he explained the gospel, you know, told you what the gospel was. But he coincided it so well with the history. of what was happening at that time period. I've never really heard someone articulate the gospel and history, like, so intertwined the way he did.

So I thought it was really fascinating. Yeah, he's kind of a back. He backs up a little bit because, you know, the last lecture, he was speaking about, you know, Nero. Well, Nero reigned after the time of Christ. So we kind of back up a little bit. I think that lecture for was kind of a broad paintbrush stroke of a lot of the years ending around the 80-70 range.

So now we're kind of backing up and just hyper-focusing on just the life of Christ. And really, who was Jesus? I mean, you're right. I mean, we've been asking this question in the podcast recently in our study of First John. Like, who even is Jesus? And what was interesting about this course, I think this particular lecture is, is this the emphasis on how Jesus did not fit into both. the Greco-Roman idea of what a God or Messiah would be.

And also, obviously, Jesus didn't fit into the current cultural, I guess, the imagination of the Jewish culture either. So he is this interesting figure in that he doesn't fit into a box that anybody. Nobody has a category for Jesus and how he came. And I think that is one of the areas why he stands out is such a very controversial. controversial figure in human history. Yeah, and I thought, Zach, I took the same thing from that. And you know what my first thought was? You know why that is the case?

It's because he's bigger than the box. So he can't fit in a box because he's above the box. And so, you know, that's, we know that knowing if he really is who we believe he is incarnate God, then of course he couldn't fit in a box because he's bigger than all the boxes. But like Christian, I felt a really interesting understanding historical context around what was happening, even the political landscape, and how Jesus is interacting because of what's going on. And so I thought that was one of the highlights to me that I learned that I didn't know. And the other thing I hadn't thought about before is about how many, like, false messias were probably around. in the first century because, again, all these prophecies had led to this period of time,

and we know that from Daniel and what we talked about in the last podcast. And so because of that, you had a lot of false choices to go along with the real choice. But all that did was make it more confusing. And even the concepts he talks about the end of the lecture about Barabbas and the thieves on the cross and how they could have been actual false messiahs or rebels against the Roman Empire. And just think about it because there was a lot of that going on in the first century. So that would have made it even more confusing for people to try to understand who Jesus really, was he really the Son of God. Yeah, Dr. Calvert points out that Christ was the Messiah.

The problem was that the Jewish people at the time, they didn't receive him as that because they didn't really know, they didn't have the expectation that the Messiah would come. in this way, and we've talked about this quite a bit of what, you know, what was their expectation? Their expectation was, I think, more of a political leader. And so even the way that Jesus, like, arrives on the scene is so humble. Everything's like so humble, right? He doesn't need to defend himself. He arrives in the form of a baby, the way he lived his life. I mean, honestly, to me, that's, I want to live my life the way that Jesus did.

I mean, he really did shape the world in a way that is not the way that any human power would do it. And then on the Greek side of it, the fact that he was God incarnate, God in a body, the Bible says that God, the fullness of God, the fullness of deity was pleased to dwell in bodily form. that idea was the Greeks did not have a Greek philosophy didn't have a category for that because the way that John Luke you mentioned it on the last podcast I mean their view of the human body was maybe yeah maybe it was perfected in that moment but inherently this thing's breaking down this thing's died this thing's going to tear apart and so they didn't have an idea of how deity could dwell in body ironically they ended up worshipping the physical world in a way through yeah through the gymnasium

and things like that so that that was kind of an interesting irony I thought about but but there's no category for for this for this god um this Jesus who understood himself to be God and so what you have in the gospels is you have four different accounts in Matthew Mark Luke and John four different accounts of people's experience with Jesus but the one thing that they all agreed on and that all the all the four gospos point to is that Jesus actually is God incarnate. And that's a massive undertaking to even comprehend what that means. Well, you know, what's interesting about not only the incarnate God, Zach, is that he makes the point about life beginning at conception from the idea of Jesus in the womb. And I thought about, you remember that it, I can't remember, it maybe in Luke's

account where, or maybe Matthew, where John the Baptist leaps in Elizabeth's womb whenever Mary comes to visit. And so, again, this idea of life inside the womb. And it wasn't really new. I mean, he mentioned that it was, you know, maybe in the first century, people thought about this more because of Mary and what in the situation. But, you know, David even mentions it in Psalm 139 and also in Psalm 51, when he kind of makes that hyperbolic statement about being inside his sinful inside his mother's womb, the idea that life begins at conception and not at birth. And when you think about it, incarnate God, do you think about it? I mean, Mary housed the son of God inside her body for nine months before she, you know,

she gave birth to him. And that's for all of us. And so, again, this is a very relevant issue because let's face it, we hear and, take part in debates every day about, you know, when do we want to protect life. And it's very evident and clear, scripturally, for sure, as well as it should be scientifically, that life begins at conception and should be protected as such. But obviously, we know because of the evil one in influence, that's not the case. And so we have all these different laws about, you know, when a child should be protected from abortion. And,

we all know. I mean, we know it inherently because it just seems right, but scripturally, and the story of Jesus and John the Baptist as well, to me, shows you that it's a godly concept as well, even though it's a relevant issue, you know, that we still discuss and debate today. And, of course, Herod was practicing infanticide, which was to kill up to two years to get done what he wanted to do. And I think that's what you see with evil. the idea about, you know, that life doesn't matter, as long as if it's a threat to your power, whatever the power base is. Well, that threat came too because the magi came in and they're bringing these gifts of gold,

frankincense, and mer. But these gifts were gifts that would commonly be used as from king to king. And so I love the way the NTI right puts it that the gospels or the story of how God became king. and that's such a beautiful way of thinking about this, that what Jesus, this is a story about Jesus becoming king, God becoming king. And so when he arrives on the scene in the manger, you know, the magi who are coming to actually bring gifts,

the particular gifts they were bringing, are actually testifying to the fact that the king of the Jews has arrived. And so you can imagine going back to what we talked about in the previous podcast, you know, Herod and his background of all the herds, I mean, these guys were, what'd you call them? Puppets. Yeah. And then John Lee kind of not pushed back, but kind of caveated it. They were puppets, but with really, because they were serving their own self-interest.

So you can imagine that probably was quite the threat if you're Herod, you hear about this baby. You know, by the way, that he's a son of David, right? just like Joseph was called Son of David, his dad. So you know the prophecies. I guarantee you that Herod probably knew those prophecies very well because he was on the lookout for any one who would rise up and take his position. And so Jesus, just as a baby, just his arrival alone, is an incredible threat to the current power structure that held power over Jerusalem

in this particular moment history. Yeah, two quick points. One, I thought it was cool how he brought that out about Joseph. and Jesus being the only two people in the New Testament named the sons of David. But it is interesting, and I'm, because I've, you don't really hear people talk about it much, but like I do think it's confusing why Joseph is not mentioned much in the scriptures at all, really. What are y'all's thoughts on why he's not really mentioned much? Well, most scholars think he probably died fair.

It must have died early. is one of the reasons why he's not in the narrative. And certainly by Jesus's death, since he hands her over to the Apostle John to look after, would have meant he wasn't in the picture at that point. But that's what most people think, and that's probably true. But you're right. I mean, I had not thought about it in quite that stark a term

that he was mentioned because of the Matthew 1 genealogy as a son of David, which meant that he was royalty. He could have been a king. Yeah, he could have been a king. Right. He had royal blood, which was very interesting. Because we think about Jesus' link, you know, you go over to Luke 3 and you read the genealogy of what most people believe is Mary's side of the equation, which also goes back, you know, to a royal lamb. So Jesus was covered from both ways to be a king, which is very interesting.

But we don't really think about Joseph in that term, in that matter. manner because really the only time he plays a role is in the early days of Jesus' life. And you're right, scripturally, that's all we know about the man. Yeah, I thought it was interesting. Then the other point, I can't remember where I was hearing this, but it was talking about when the magic brought the gold frankincers in the mur. And it was talking about how at the time, Mary and Joseph would have no money right there. And when Jesus is born and they're in the end, they're not financially stable.

They don't have a ton of money. and when they flee to Egypt, they were talking about how Egypt is a way wealthier, you know, land than where they're coming from. And the person was talking about how the gold from the magi was what provided them sustenance and a place to live in Egypt,

which I've never heard anyone else talk about that. So I thought that was interesting. Yeah, we did a, this last Christmas Eve service. I had read something similar, Christian, And we did a whole lesson on that on Christmas Eve about God as a provider and the different ways he provides, which are so unique. And there are things you wouldn't count on. You wouldn't plan on.

I mean, who would plan on that, right? I mean, they were down because they were doing a census is the reason they were in Bethland to begin with when they have Jesus there. And then all of a sudden these guys show up within the first two years. And remember by now they're in a house. but and then show up with these gifts that would then sustain them as they have to go on the run to protect Jesus' life. And it's just, it's a beautiful picture of the provision of God in ways that we couldn't plan. You know, we just get that blessing and gift, which is amazing. Yeah, because they, because they escape into Egypt as a way of escape.

Because this particular area, as Dr. Calvert points out, was not under the occupation or the jurisdiction of Herod. So this was a place they could go to to get away from the threat that Herod would pose to them. And it's interesting how God does that because you can look at it on one level and it seems to be like a pragmatic decision. Of course, they would go to Egypt. Great move, great point. But it also has a double purpose to serve in fulfilling the prophecy of Hosea 111 that says that God says, I'm going to call my son out of Egypt. So you see a prophet. A prophet Prophacy fulfilled through Joseph's actions to take his family for protection purposes. But it has a dual purpose, one obviously sustaining the life of Christ, but also to fulfill the prophecy.

And you actually see that in a lot of prophetic fulfillment. You see, oh, it's like anchored in, again, in history. It really encourages me because, again, it gives a lot more texture. to the Christian faith is not something we're just leaping into, but something that is actually rooted in reality itself. We want you to take the courses with us, unashamed for Hillsdale.com is where you go to do that. Yeah, and Zach,

I think it's also historical irony as well on fulfilling that prophecy that God would call his people out of Egypt in the beginning, out of that slavery. And now here Jesus goes back into Egypt and comes out and he now brings all men out of slavery in a sense of slave to sin. And so it's just, you know, God always knows how to type what we would call the loose ends of things. But from his perspective, it's always part of his plan. I wanted to shift in this idea about he mentioned three pictures of the incarnate God,

which were very powerful, I thought, and I agreed with him. He mentions his baptism, which you can read. about in Matthew 3, 13 through 17, when you see the Trinity in its glory, you know, in that moment because you have the son and then you have the father's voice and then you have this image of the Holy Spirit as a dove. And so in that, you get that physical picture so much so that John the Baptist, who was there with him, obviously and baptized him, says in John 1, 29, when he sees him after the baptism, look, the Lamb of God, who comes to save the world. So he recognized it and knew it in that

moment because of the baptism. And then he mentions the temptation, which is in the next chapter, Matthew, and Matthew 4, where you see literally God and Satan in this sort of duel, because Satan is trying to, you know, attack the human Jesus, you know, the son of man. in these different ways, but the Son of God emerges as victorious because he doesn't give in, which I thought was great. And then he mentions the Transfiguration, which is the third one. And you can read about that in Mark 9. And that was the idea that the apostles, well, you know, Peter James and John got this little glimpse of like a glorified Jesus. And they also got a little glimpse of Moses and Elijah in the same moment about what it was going to look like in this glorified

form. So I just thought those were three. great examples. We sort of hang our hat on all three of those, the idea about Jesus saying who he was and then getting to see that in the moments of his life, which is very powerful. Yeah, when Jesus enters in the scene, you know, he's coming in to a world that is ruled by the Roman Empire, which at that time, I mean, would be like, I mean, it would be, more powerful than America as today, I would imagine. And like all things were considered, like if you look at its influence globally,

I mean, it was the global dominant power. It was so far above any other power in the world that it was, I mean, we're talking about the world Jesus is coming into as a very humble entrance, through a very humble entrance, he's coming in, I mean, this is big, This is big league politics here. And the fact that he had that big of a threat,

which is ultimately what got him killed. But what's funny about it is that he's killed under Roman occupation and rule. Pontch's pilot was the one who gave the orders to kill him. It was the Roman soldiers that whipped Jesus' back. It was, you know, he was hung on a Roman cross. I mean, this is a Roman execution. The irony of it is that it was actually, Rome and that actually brought the Christ to the rest of the world.

And Dr. Calvert points this out in the lecture. I thought that was, again, so fascinating how God's providence in things. He so often operates in a way that what you think is actually failure ends up being the very mechanism of success in God's economy. You see it over and ever again. I mean, even like we did into the last lecture with what seemed to be, be like, okay, it looks like Nero won. Well, no, he didn't win. And then the same thing happening here. Every time you think that death ensues and death is going to have its

victory, you're like, nope, Christ is ultimately going to be victorious. And you see that happened here through Christ, his death, his death, barren resurrection. Yeah, I thought one of his points he made, I've never thought about this when he was talking about the Pharisees and Sadducees and how, you know, obviously Jesus was a threat to them Theologically and politically, but the idea of them being exiled from the promised land, I've always just thought about, you know, just the division between Rome and the Jews, but I've never thought about there being that fear of them being exiled from the promised land. Have you all not, have you all thought about that?

That is, I never heard that before. That interested me too, because it, that was one of the big ironies of the whole story. is that the Sanhedron giving Jesus to Rome to be killed and crucifying him ended up causing one of the causes that eventually led to the fall of Jerusalem in 8070 and the Jews being kicked out of Israel again. Like had that have not happened in Christianity of not spread the way it did 40 years ago at the crucifixion of Jesus, things may have turned out differently for the Jews down the road.

Well, yeah, and I wanted to read this text from John 11, which backs that point up, exactly what you said, Christian, whenever, you know, this is, Jesus has just raised Lazarus from the dead. And so now, I mean, now, like, the following is really starting to make a huge impact, and we're sort of, you know, now nearing towards his death. And so there's this plot. And so, there's this plot that comes up and the Pharisees get together and they said, what are we accomplishing? Here is this man performing many miraculous signs. If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him and then the Romans will come

and take away both our place and our nation. And so that's that's that threat to the land and the people. And then one of them named Kaifas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, you know nothing at all. You do not realize that it is better for you. then one, that one man die for the people, then the whole nation perish. And that wind up being a prophetic word because he would die for the nation, but he would also die for the whole world.

And so I think in that, in that threat and then the idea of why they were plighted to kill Jesus is the idea about what you were mentioning Christian, that there was this great fear because, and which is why I think Dr. Calvert had gone back and talked about the two different exiles, because that was the fear. We're going to lose our place, you know, and this has been given us by God. What they didn't realize was the only reason it was given to them was to be the birthplace for Jesus, the Messiah. That was the whole point was right in front of them, but they were missing it. And Caiaphas made this prophecy to kill Jesus, which they ultimately did. What he didn't realize is in the doing of that, he provided then the king.

and the way out for them. And it wouldn't be just one place on Earth. And I think this is what a lot of people miss today. And Zach, we talk about a lot on the other podcast, on the regular Unashamed podcast, is that people are still mystified about the place. And we're like, it's much bigger than the place now. It's the person.

It's not the physical temple. So we're still trying to teach our way through that and the idea, and it still gets missed. Once you take the course with us, unashamed for Hillsdale.com. is where you do that. Well, when you look at the stoning of Stephen, I'm trying to find this line here.

Stephen said this. He said, it was Solomon who built a house for him, speaking of the first temple. Yet the most high does not dwell in houses made by hands, as the prophet says, heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.

What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord? or what kind of place of a place of my rest did not my hand make all these things? In other words, like, you're not going to house God in some place that you build. And so when they kill Stephen, it says that the accusation that they brought against him was that he was speaking. I think it says he was speaking against this place. Let me find that real quick. So this is actually back up in Acts chapter 6 and says, this man never ceases. to speak words against this holy place and the law,

for we have heard him say that Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and will change the customs of Moses deliver to us. So that really is that fear, and it's why they, you see, that's why they arrest Stephen. That's why they seize him and ultimately killed him because they said he's talking about the place and he's going to, he's threatening the law of Moses.

So you actually see that, later on in the gospels even i'm sorry you see that later on in the history of the church it's a it's an obsession with the place but i just want to remind everybody too and this is it this scripture's mentioned in the course of john uh the apostle john and john let's see here john 18 when jesus talks about his kingdom what he says is he says my kingdom is not of this world he didn't say it's not in the world he says not of this world if my king kingdom or of this world, my servants would have been fighting that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world. Then Pilots said to him, so you are a king.

And Jesus answered, said, you're right, I am a king. But the way that Jesus's kingship rules, it rules in a kingdom that you can't actually identify with a place. That's the big shift of what's happening through the life of Christ. It's a new type of kingdom that he's establishing here. Yeah, well, you just brought up Pilot, and I thought it was cool. He did a cool history account on kind of at the time when Jesus was tried by Pilot that he had been under some fire. I think he mentioned like Samaritans that there was like a revolt that Pilot was kind of in charge of. So I'd never known the historicity of the time for him when Pilot, you know, allowed Jesus to be crucified of just some different historical things. that were happening and that pilot was kind of responsible for and he kind of felt that pull of

you know the jewish and the roman um but i'd never i'd never heard those those um facts about pilot i thought i thought that was really interesting well and you're right grisn it helps to know that because even the pilot was a part of the you know when the emperor the emperor that was was killed before or no the emperor was threatened and then But his pilot's guy that put him in power was the guy that had threatened the emperor. And then that was stamped out. So that tells you a lot about the man in terms of now he's in charge of this area about why he was so indecisive about what to do about the situation. Because he had so much personally on the line for his position.

And it was really, because, you know, we see this wrestling match with pilot, right? And then even his wife, you know, it's like send him message. is like, I've had dreams about this guy. Do not kill this guy. Whatever you do. And yet, he feels like he's just pressed into this position. Instead of being the true leader of which he should have been, I mean, because he was the representative of Roman power, he instead was led by the other forces for Christ to be

crucified. And I think it's back to what Zach, you were talking about earlier, this idea, it seems like it's an unwinnable situation. but it was all planned anyway. I mean, Jesus came to give his life. And so it's like, how do you win by surrender? What Jesus shows is that what nobody knew, of course, is that he would be raised from the dead except for Jesus.

And he said that. He said, you know, I'll give my life, but trust me, I'll be back. And so therefore victory was by surrender. And so when we look at our own lives, we say, well, how do we have victory and surrender? But that's exactly what we do. we surrender our lives and then we find victorious resurrection. And I love the fact that he made the point that the cross was more than just justification.

It was also about transformation. And he used the illustration, Dr. Calvert did, of the woman, sinful woman that was, you know, the Jesus, all the people were ready to stone her. And he said, well, okay, the first one of you without sin, you go ahead and start. And then they all walk away. But instead of just leaving the woman in the state of laying there feeling like she dodged a bullet, he says, go and send no more. It's not about just being saved, it's about being transformed. And I love that he brought that out, because that's the power of the gospel, that

Christ would love us and that he would take us as we are, but then he loves us so much he wouldn't leave us that way. He has to transform us into something that looks like him. And so that's the beauty of, you know, submission and surrender that then leads to victory and overcoming the world. And what he looks like specifically is exemplified in the cross. It's the cruciform life. So if you think about the three power structures at play here, actually there's four. Yeah, Pontch's pilot representing the Roman Empire. The dynamic there is obvious, right?

Like you just beautifully articulated that. He's thinking, man, I got to maintain my governorship here. You know what I mean? Like, he's a political figure. Like, I'm in charge of this whole thing. So when he interviews Jesus and Jesus is like, well, my kingdom's not of this world, he's like, oh, fine, well, great, we're all good. He's ready to let him go. Yeah.

But he's still fearful over his power that he's going to lose it. And the reason why he makes a decision because of the other two power parties, which is the Pharisees and the Sadducees, which make up the Sanhedron. And so they're like, no, no, no, we're not good with that. And so when Pilate gives in to them, he is, it's. It's not like he still is doing it as a political move to maintain his power. And with the Sadducees and the Pharisees, they both are at odds of one another. This is what's so funny about it. Everybody's at odds of one another.

The Sadducees are political rivals of the Pharisees, but they can join together against the Roman Empire, because they're both enemies of the Roman Empire, at least in their minds, right? And so they're all jocke in for position and control, and who's going to be the one to have the power. So this is like a game of thrones. This is like the game risk. This is like strategy and politics and how are we going to pull this off. And then you have the fourth power structure, which is Jesus, who has all authority on heaven and earth, who is God incarnate, who spoke the world into existence. And his play is simply to yield his life and to put his life into the hands of these people.

Like you said, he says, nobody takes my life. I willingly lay it down. And I think that in that, that right there, that's the thing that we're saved to. Like, he's redefining what power actually is. And he's the only one who doesn't have to fight for power. Everybody else is trying to fight for it because they have to fight for it. And they're trying to take it.

And he's the one that's giving it away. He's the one that is laying it down. And ultimately, that's going to cost him his life. And they're going to murder him. We're going to murder him on a Roman cross. To add to that, I think there's another power struggle, which is the angelic and demonic forces, the whole spiritual battle for the kingdom and for earth going on above and beyond all of this as well. Because, I mean, if you've got, I think Pilate's wife having dreams, for example, is a good example that,

something in the spiritual words was also happening to either cause this or stop it from both sides. You've got the guys with demons. You've got people being raised for that. You've got other false prophets. Like you've got a ton of spiritual stuff going on here behind the scenes that we are just, we just get like glimpses of in these like kind of little one-off statements of a dream there, a miracle they are, a demonic person there. But there's a, later when Paul says, you know, our battle is not flesh and blood with demonic forces of the world, like there's also this whole other layer of politics going on. And to your point, John Luke, you remember Paul said, I think it was in First Corinthians,

that if the rulers had known what was going on, you know, they would have never done it because obviously, you know, they were being fed this false information by these demonic forces and by evil. and ultimately it was to their own demise. I was thinking about it. Zat, when you were mentioning the powers, you know, Pontius Pilate basically disappears, but nobody's sure what happened to him.

I mean, he just, when he left, he just, you know, it was over for him. You never heard anything else about him. There's been a lot of rumors about, you know, what happened to him, but he was gone. You had Herod Antipa, which was the, you know, the pilot tried to pawn Jesus off to maybe something would happen.

there, but you remember all he wanted was some miracles. So, I mean, he was so non-powerful that all he wanted was some magic tricks, and then he sent him right back. And so he was a non-factor. Well, we know from Acts 12 that he gets worms and dies. You know, he gets eaten by worms inside out. And that ended him. And then you mentioned the Sanhedron, which was the Pharisees and the sagesies, all built around the temple. Well, they got wiped out in 80-70 by the Romans. And so that was the end of their whole power structure. And so all of these power structures that thought they had the power of Jesus, they all disappeared. But guess who kept going? Guess what's still here 2,000 years later? The church he built. Yeah, the kingdom is still going strong. And we're still

talking about it. We're still having a podcast about it. But not about those other entities. And so, again, it's just, as you pointed out in the last podcast, Zach, and even in this one, it is rooted in all of our human history. This is not just fairy tale. This is not myth. This is not something we hope happen. It's something that did happen. And that's why we're still here.

And that's why we're still being transformed by it all these years later. It's real. Well, the reason why we're still talking about it today and the reason why it didn't die off is because it didn't die off. I mean, Christ was resurrected from the dead. The body came out of the grave.

The tomb was rolled away and Christ ascended. I mean, think about that. I mean, Christ was, post-resurrection was on the earth for 40 days. Like, that's not like some guy goes in the cave and gets a vision from God and then tells the rest of us about it. He appeared to more than 500 people. The Apostle Paul says that in 1st, 15. and you think about, man, what an apologetic for God's existence and the resurrection of Christ. I mean, if this thing was made up, then why would Paul say he appeared to 500 people,

most of whom are still alive today, Paul says. I mean, you wouldn't say that. Because if you, once you put that out there, then all I'm going to, if I'm, if I know Paul, guess what I'm going to ask Paul? Well, who are those people? Right. You're giving yourself too many ways to sink the ship of this, of this, of this, conspiracy that you built. The fact that he appeared to 500 people, Paul said most of whom were alive when he wrote that letter to the Corinthian church, I think it was written within 14 to 16 months

after the resurrection, or at least he received that gospel within 14 to 16 months of the resurrection of Christ is just incredible. So he walks on the earth for 40 days and then Christ ascends. And I think that ascension part is key to the whole thing, and he mentions it, Dr. Calvert does. He says that the plateness in the Greek philosophers couldn't understand how flesh and blood could enter into the heavenly realm. They didn't have a category for that, because why? The flesh is bad. Not the flesh of Christ. Christ never sinned. He didn't sin one time. He took on sin, but he never sinned. And so he lived a perfect life. And so now Christ, being the atoning sacrifice of his own body, he also became high

priest according to the Hebrew writer and then Christ as high priest who is made perfect through his suffering he takes the atoning sacrifice into the true tabernacle the true temple which is in the heavenly realm Christ enters in to the true holy of holies the final yam kippur and he makes atonement for the sins of the people once and for all and that's why when he was on that cross he said it's finished. And I just love that idea of our God, becoming flesh, fulfilling the sacrifice, and then taking that into that throne room and paying for it and presenting it once and for all. And that's why I think that we're still talking about it, so I'm here 2,000 years later. Well, that's a perfect way to end. We're out of time. We thank you guys, Unashamed Nation,

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