Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1301 | Chuck Norris & Phil Robertson Proved True Strength Goes Beyond the Legend

Episode Date: March 31, 2026

Al reflects on the loss of Chuck Norris, which sparks a nostalgic look at larger-than-life tough guys and leads straight into reminiscing about Phil’s hardest-hitting, most unbelievable moments, including jaw-dropping procedures without anesthesia. The guys wrestle with the spiritual reality behind good and evil, and what Jesus truly accomplished through his resurrection, emphasizing that love, not punishment, is at the center of the Gospel and that real strength is found in being ready for what comes after this life. In this episode: 1 John 3, verse 8; 1 John 4, verses 7–21; 1 John 2, verse 2; Romans 3, verse 25; Leviticus 16, verses 15–16; Hebrews 9, verse 5; Romans 5, verse 11; 2 Corinthians 5, verses 10–21; Romans 8, verses 1–3; Psalm 22, verses 1–24; Genesis 3 “Unashamed” Episode 1301 is sponsored by: https://meetfabric.com/unashamed — Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. https://homechef.com/unashamed — Get 50% off and free shipping on your first box plus free dessert for life! https://ruffgreens.com — Get a FREE Jumpstart Trial Bag for your dog today when you use promo code Unashamed! https://unashamedgold.com — Get a free 2026 Gold & Silver Guide and a no obligation consultation! http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ — Sign up now for free, and join the Unashamed hosts every Friday for Unashamed Academy Powered by Hillsdale College Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://open.spotify.com/show/3LY8eJ4ZBZHmsImGoDNK2l Chapters 00:00 Chuck Norris the Legend 04:12 Something’s Gonna Get Us 08:05 Phil’s Tough Man Stories 15:10 The Dangers of Spring Cleaning 20:25 The Snakebite That Almost Cost a Life 25:10 Why We Avoid Thinking About Death 29:05 Dark Forces Behind the Serpent 36:20 Why Jesus Came to Destroy the Devil’s Work 43:30 The Cross Debate: Love vs. Wrath 52:10 Did God Turn His Back on Jesus? — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. I woke up, Jay, to the sad news that one of our icons, our childhood heroes. One of your icons. You know, he never was yours? Eh. I didn't, I wasn't much on his movies. But now, you know, I found it. Well, the movies were a little cheesy, but he was just, he was just a bad man. Of course, we're talking about Chuck Norris. passed away in Hawaii, which I guess made sense.

He was in paradise on Earth. Yeah, don't take that the wrong way. It wasn't that I disapproved. I just wasn't as... You weren't as into him as I was. No. And then later, I never figured out the fascination with, you know, all the little sayings. So many.

I was looking them up and reading them this morning, Zach. They were hilarious. All these, you know, Chuck Norris. They're the best. Yeah, they're the best. I just did one. because I was near where he's from in Texas, where he has a ranch. And so I did the boogeyman checks his closet every night for Chuck Norris.

So it's one of my favorites. What was the one you read? You were reading them when I was over. What I said, God created the earth. Then on the seventh, they rested, and then Chuck Norris took over. But it does show you, Jason, we're talking about this morning. that he's kind of, the joke is his invincibility, because, and I've told the story before on the podcast,

I got to meet him 11 years ago. And the only reason I know exactly when it was is it was his 75th birthday. And we happened to be at the same event, and a mutual friend invited me to his little surprise parties. It was great because there was just a handful of people there. So I really got to visit with him. And Jay's, I don't know if I told you this,

but he, at the time he had, twin 15 year old sons. So I guess now they'd be 26. And so they were young because he had married a little bit later, his wife he had now. But he said they love the show. And you in particular were their favorite. So I'm warming up to it.

Yeah. So the Chuck Norris twins, whoever they are, said they love them some Js. But he was fantastic. But you know, he was 75, and he looked like he was 45. Yeah. I mean,

I just shows you being in shape. I mean, I have said this line many times on this podcast, because Phil always used to say it. People always laugh. I say it in every speech. And my dad would use this illustration. It's worth repeating that when people do not want to think seriously

about their impending death, they will rationalize in their mind by doing something good. which is eating right and working out, which are great things. Nothing wrong with that. But don't let that be a delusion in that you're not going to die, and my dad would say, oh, you tell me, I eat right and I work out. And he would say, you will die healthy.

But it may be a bus. It may be a staircase. But it will be something. Something's happening. Even the seemingly invincible Chuck Nars. But he was one of those that your childhood. Two of them I got to meet him. He was one.

And then we got to meet Haxall, Jim Duggan, because he was on the show. Oh, yeah, that was fun. That was fun. Well, our lovely cousin, I don't even have to say her name, but she has a nickname that we affectionately call her Lulu, so you can't look her up. Yeah. But the original Lulu, because my wife became a Lulu. Oh, she's a little bit of her. That's a grandma name.

But she sent me a funny tech show. yesterday. She's like, you're not going to believe this. I just bought a bottle of eternal water. She didn't have to clarify. I knew what that meant. I was like, people are still up to this idea of selling the idea of eternity and supernatural things through their products when, look, it may be the greatest water ever. I've never tried it. But it's not going to keep it. keep you from dying. No. Nope.

And you know what else? It's not going to be better than Chuck Norris's water. Sea Force, speaking of Chuck Norris. It says on the bottle, it's like a roundhouse kick to the face.

Yeah. Rest and peace, Chuck. The outlaw Josie Wales movie. It's filled with so many lines of even at the end when it gets to the end. My apologies for bringing

this movie up again. Don't apologize. Whoever wrote that movie ended the movie with the words of death and the words of life, which are a direct quote from the book of Genesis. Blessings and curses, words of life, words of death, it shall be life. But the young buck who followed Josie around and he took him in, you remember when he got shot and he looked up and he was like, it was incredible acting.

He's like, I ain't going to lie to you. I'm scared to die, Josie. But that was just brutal honesty that I find lacking in movies today that deep down, you know, you're not scared to die until you get shot. And then all of a sudden, you're looking around saying, I'm scared to die, Josie. So. So a lot of people, yeah, and especially just think if you're not, you're not spiritually prepared, that would be really scary.

Because you're really putting it all on the line if you're not ready. I mean, we're ready. But, you know, none of us really look forward to it. But, you know, I'm ready. When we started doing all this stuff with Phil, you know, with the podcast, and we had in the woods with Phil before that, which was behind the paywall. So a lot of you did get to see it, which, by the way, if you do want to hear some of those or watch some of those old episodes, we're bringing them back out in the form of a podcast

called At Home with Phil. You can look it up on YouTube or on wherever you listen to the podcast. Great idea, Zach. Great idea. It was a great idea. It was a great idea. There's also a new book coming out at some point.

It's a lot of, it's a compilation of his stuff in the new devotional, but it's a new book. I know your dad's been working on it. I don't know any details about it, but just be looking for it when it comes. Yeah, once that, I don't either,

but once that comes out, we'll get everybody together on out too but what um we've we had this one scene when i had this idea like when we launched that that was uh i said phil let's go out wait that turns dark and you just built a fire and then i'm gonna we'll film you building this bonfire and the whole thing was about like like starting a fire for the kingdom and like we're we're i mean this thing is catching yeah catching flame here and i had a whole thing i wrote out for him it was he was he was fired up about it so he goes out there and jill was with me I think Phil was probably 68, 69.

And so he got this fire going right out there on Y'all's land, Jase, and it's just a bonfire. I mean, and so he gets so hot because it was in the middle of the summer. He takes his shirt off and Jill was like stunned because he was ripped. I mean, Phil was ripped up at 68 years old. I mean, he was just chiseled. And Uncle Tommy was the same way. And he never worked out.

He worked outside. Yeah, outside. Jill was like, good night, Phil. You're like, put like a brick house. Zach, what happened to you? Well, that's like... I used that to get back to, you know, Chuck Norris, and look, I'm sorry he died, but it's...

This is the hand we're dealt. Isn't it? But I, when the Chuck Norse crazed with all the sayings was going on, I guess it still is, I verbally said, well, you should meet my dad. That's right. Because I'm like, he invented this kind of mindset as far as, get out of the way and watch this. I mean, you're talking about one tough, gritty human being that was my dad.

And so everybody who knew him well, I mean, it's shocking how strong the man was. Well, it hit me this year or last year. actually when I turned 60, but when I got to thinking, mom and dad, or mine and Lisa's age, when this whole kind of the phenomenon era started, it was the Bonelli show, it was on the Outdoor Channel, that then led to the Duck Show and all that.

But they were our age. They were around early 60s. They were running all over the country, just like we're doing flights here and there, speaking all over the place, writing books, doing commercials, in between, no days off, just, getting after it. And it hit me. I was like, that's what we're doing the exact same thing.

But you can do that until one day you look up and you can't. Well, right. And then all of a sudden, it was just, it was over and it just seemed like it went by so fast that last decade. And so it made me realize that the clock is ticking. So, but it doesn't want to slow me down. I want to do just the opposite. I'm speeding up. So the first time that I got a term life insurance policy was right before my first child was born. Al, I know you've talked about, someone gifted you, your first one. Yeah, it was a guy we love to call Big Boy, and he was an insurance salesman. And he gifted that to me going into the seminary to become a preacher. So I've always appreciated that. Well, I've had term life insurance for over 20 years now, and now I've got five kids. So, of course,

we've added a few more policies along the way. But, you know, I think it's the responsible thing to do to make sure that your family's taken care of in the event that something could happen to you, which is why I want to tell you about fabric, Fabric by Gerber Life, it's a term life insurance policy you can get done today. So made for busy parents, just like you, all online, all on your schedule, right from your couch. You can be covered in under 10 minutes with no health exam required. Fabric has flexible, high-quality policies that fit your family and your budget, like a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day. And it's really a no-brainer because there's no risk.

There's a 30-day money-back guarantee you can cancel at any time. So join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family, apply today in just minutes at meatfabric.com slash unashamed. That's meatfabric.com slash unashamed. M-E-E-T Fabric.com slash unashamed. Policies issued by a Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices are subject to underwriting and health questions. Well, I was more referring to if you think I'm embellishing about my dad, because everybody says that. Oh, yeah, my dad said he walked, you know, barefoot, uphill, low boys in the snow. Just keep in mind that my dad did not use any kind of deadening or, what is that stuff called?

You know, numbing agent, gas, none of that. And I'll give you three examples just off the top of my head. From a root canal, no deadening, wide awake, nothing is numbed. Yeah. Had a rod removed from his eyeball. No dead knee, no put you under. No, none of that. And then the first man, maybe on the planet, to ever have whatever that procedure is where they go up in there to remove kidney stones or break them up into the south of the border.

What makes a male a male, the most profound member. he did that to the doctor's surprise without any because they put people under to do that. My dad was watching the video. So just saying, I'm not trying to embellish that the man was just on another level. He had a very high pain to honor.

So I'll tell you two more that I personally witnessed. One was they cut a cyst out of his back. No, no topical. Normally, you know, he put a little topical. topical on there at the very least because you're literally cutting and pulling that thing out.

He did that and I was there for that one. And then I saw Granny one day pull a thorn. I'd say it was probably two inches long, two to three inches long. It was this long that had gone in his eye right in the corner. It's making me nausea. I know. She could see the speck. She started pulling that thing out.

And I was just standing there. I guess I was a teenager. And it was right there in that front bathroom in that greenhouse. days where a washroom dryware and she pulls that thing out and my eyes got so big because it just, it was so, it just kept coming. You know,

dad's like, man, that feels better. The only time, that's what he said, man. The only time I can remember that I saw him a little fearful, I can only remember one time. Me and him

were going to run the nets, the commercial fishing nets, at night because that was something we did every once in a while. And when we got in the boat, I thought we had a light, but I saw something move, and he went Congo in the boat, and he jumped out of the boat, which I jumped out too. But then he looked back in it and he said, he jumped out of the boat, so then we jumped back in. all of a sudden you went to safety

back to safety and I just found it shocking that he jumped out of the boat I just it is pretty it is pretty amazing that he was never snakebidden

as much time as he spent around poisonous snakes because that old beaver dam breaking up stuff there was a snake's going on that and the most famous blind we have

is called the lake blind and it became a city. It was a three-sided blind that would actually hold at one time. Now, we only have one side left, but a storm came through and disassembled the three sides, so we turned it into three blinds. But back in the day, this is the one where we had bunk beds and a kitchen in its original form. A stove, a full stove.

It was a house. It was a house. And you can live there. And my dad would always say, hey, war breeder. out or whatever. We're moving to that lake. That's where we're moving. But during the, this time of year.

The problem is it's everybody else's house for the other nine months of the year. Yeah. This time of the year, which now are spring, well, all these critters out in the wild, they're not going to turn that down because the humans leave. And you have a fortress out in the middle of one of the most rugged swamps in the world. Bees, purple-tail was. So there's a debugging, desnaking, cleaning up process that happens before the next duck season.

Every year we would go do it. And I hated it. They actually filmed it. Other shows would come down and film us doing it. Alligator was in the blind one time. Billy the Exterminator tried it. Abort. Abort.

That's what it said on the mission. That is true. We were the one set that they tried to film a show. Abort. And they said, nope. Too many. The was. The brother was allergic to was stings.

I could do bit of exterminating. Do you remember that? That's crazy. I guess we can talk about that now. So, well, I was wanting to tell this one story, though. One year, we were doing it. We had the whole crew. We completely, I mean, we killed snakes.

We got rid of the wasp. We cleaned it up. And all that was filled with moments of terror for everybody, you know. My dad was sitting on the corner of the blind, in his spot, and he turned to everybody. We were all just like taking a deep breath. Job well done. Mission accomplished. Phil said, well, we got it all done, boys.

Good job. And when I looked up and I saw a clump in a button willa that was used as brunt. It was a growing buttonwiller. I would say a foot from his right ear, and there was a clump. And I looked at it, and it was a cotton mouth, called up one foot from his ear. And I said, Phil, don't take this the wrong way. But there's a bull congo right by your right ear. And he went, yeah, yeah.

I said, no, I'm serious. He said, yeah. I was like, don't make any sudden moves. And he said, are you serious? I said, he's called up. He's like, cotton mouths, he started arguing with me. Cotton mouths don't climb trees, Jace. I was like, there's one in that bush, and it's not a water snake.

It is a cotton mouth. And he moved back and looked, and he said, well, you're right. He reached around for his weapon and just incinerated the bush and said snake. No fear. He said, that dog on rouse. Yeah, he wasn't scared of that for whatever reason. Because the snake wasn't in an aggressive position, but still. It doesn't take a snake long to get into it.

Then everybody realized it's where you go in and out of the blind. We have gone under this snake all day. All day. He just sitting there. I thought, whoa. If it had just dropped down on top of one, I feel that would have been there. That's why I'm saying it's amazing. It never happened.

What's ironic, Zach, is your mom did get bitten by a poisonous snake. She did. And she was a little girl. And Phil's reaction when she did was there's nothing wrong with you. Well, she was, because the way she just talked about his pain tolerance was. Yeah, the way she tells the story is that the grass was about knee high because, you know, Phil learned not to mow the yard from, I guess, his parents, our grandparents. And they were playing football in the yard, Phil, the boy.

and all of our uncles. And my mom was kind of like the, I think her role was just, she was kind of like the servant worker. You know what I mean? She kind of kept that role, you know, she cleaned everybody's house. I remember,

she was always the, you need something done. She's the one you call. So it feels like, go run up there and get some water. She said, I don't want to run through that grass because I don't want to get bit by a snake.

It feels like, you're not getting bit by a snake. Go get a jug of water. So she runs over there, fills it up with water. She's running back. And she's scared the whole time. And she feels something hit her toe, like an intense pain.

And she knew she had been bit by a snake. I said, then when she gets back to Phil, she's like, I just got bit by a snake. And then so let me see it. And so he looked at her toe, and there was only one, there was a prick mark on it. And he said, no, not a snake. And she said he took a stick and drew a circle in the sand. and he put two dots. He said, snake, two things.

Your toe, one hole, not a snake. And so she said, I got bit by, I know I got bit by a snake. Well, this whole thing unfolds is she ends up back in the house with Granny and Paul, and then she starts to get sick. And then her leg starts to swell up, and there's red veins, like red streaks going up her leg. And Granny's like, I think you need to take her to the hospital. And, you know, of course, like granddad was coming. kind of, you know how he was.

I said, I should be all right. That's where dad got a lot of his. Oh, yeah. So my mom's like dying. Like she literally starts to vomit, intense fever. I mean, this is the whole thing. And the whole time, Paul, and Granny finally like, you know, she had her way too.

Finally, she's like, she got so animated that Paul's, all right, I guess I'll take her. So he takes her to the hospital. And sure enough, she had gotten bit by a water moccasin. Yeah. And so one thing on the foot. She was running, so one thing went in her. But that was the infamous mom got bit by a cotton mouth and Phil and Paul told her she'd be all right story.

So we got out of Christmas, got out of New Year's, got all of that after all the holiday craziness out. The last thing you want to do is to overthink dinner. No doubt about it. And that's what I love about Home Chef. Oh, yeah. Home Chef makes it easy to get back on track with simple recipes, fresh ingredients, and meals that actually feel doable.

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All you got to do is go to HomeCef.com slash Unashame. That's HomeCheft.com slash Unashamed for 50% off your first box and free dessert for life. Home Chef.com slash unashamed. Must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. Since we're talking about snake bites, one last Chuck Norris show, a cobra bit Chuck Norris, and five days later, the cobra died of painful death. All right, that's it. Well, I'll make a good segue here.

All right. Before we read this, First John 4, we're going to talk about today. in 1 John 3 in verse 8 because don't you find it fascinating that the evil one took the form of a serpent

in the garden now whether that's literal or used as an analogy I'm open for suggestion yeah because whatever it was is a little different

than what we would know because remember one of the curses was you'll be slithering the rest of the way. So I don't know if they could walk. I don't know what was going on there. I don't know the details. It was different, but people do not like snakes by nature. People like to talk about all that. But the point of it is that there are spiritual forces of evil. Yeah.

And how that happened, there are a ton of views on, you know, where did the evil one? How did that happen? Yeah. You know, there's this interesting take in Ezekiel 28 that it's a prophecy, but it's intertwined with real people. Yeah, the king of somewhere. And all of a sudden it's like, well, that sounds like it's kind of giving you some hints into the evil ones origin, like a fallen angel. Right. So, but I want to, I just want to point out that this profound verse that we read in 1 John 3 where it says, verse 8 says he who does what is sinful is of the devil

because the devil has been sinning from the beginning which he goes back to the garden moment in Genesis 3 the reason the son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work I mean which would be sinning right that means something I mean, Jesus came to defeat.

I mean, he came for a lot of reasons in the flesh. Because that's kind of what 1st John is zero and in on, like the Antichrist is one that does it acknowledge Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, 4, 3, 4, 2 and 3 of 1st John. But there, that means something. I tend to think as followers of Jesus, we zero, in on one thing and make that the thing. But part of what God did through Jesus and given us the Holy Spirit, which is all over the place in what we're reading in chapter 3 and Bert and chapter

four, he came to defeat and destroy the devil's work. And where we are in our context, as in 4, 7 to 21, he says basically him coming from, here to do that work for us is the ultimate illustration of love. It's just love. I mean, it's the biggest illustration. Well, I want to remind you, and this was my idea, literally one minute before we started, where I wanted to go, because there's something interesting that happens, there's something interesting that happens from a biblical perspective in that the Hebrew word for atonement is all over the place in the Old Testament. Yeah.

And when you get to the New Testament, not so much. And so you're like, well, what happened? How come it's not talked about much? And the verse I want to point out, and this is not the first time it's mentioned in 1st John, but we really didn't talk about it the first time it was mentioned. The first time it was mentioned was in 1st John 2. in verse two, speaking of Jesus, being our advocate, or crudely, you know, our lawyer in heaven, but it's that Greek word paraclitus, which we went through, which is used as reference by John

to be the Holy Spirit four times in John 14 and then in John 16. But here he uses it as Jesus on our definition. defense, being alongside of us, speaking in our defense. And then he says in verse two, he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. So that phrase, atoning sacrifice, that in Greek, there's a word that is being translated, atonement. Well, it's only used twice. this specific word in the New Testament here and 1 John 410. But to finish the verse, it says he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So there's one and the other. You're like, this is the only two times as mentioned, this exact phrase, this is it. Now there's a cousin of this mentioned elsewhere, and I'm going to bring that up, but 1 John 4 in verse 10. This is love. Not that we love God, but that he loved us, and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sin. So you see, it was translated the same phrase. So you say, well, I bring this up. Now, if you're new to the faith, you probably don't realize that,

the idea of atonement is muchly debated on what it means. I would say borderline controversial, Zach? Oh, it's been very controversial. And there's been, well, one thing that happened recently, there was a book that was written that came out. They got a lot of traction about, you know, one camp wants to kind of, well, it's kind of nuanced, but one camp wants to deny the atonement as part of,

of salvation, the other, and then another group, maybe he wants to over-emphasize atonement, and there's kind of different variations in between and what does the atonement mean? Well, let's focus on the second one. Let's focus on the second one. There's different, now how did you just put that? There are different variations in stress what that means.

Yeah. A lot of, there's been a phrase that came up, and I'm going to, I did a little research on it, but it's actually not in the Bible, but it's deducted from biblical verses, and it's a phrase that's called PSA, and it's not public service announcement, which is kind of funny,

but it's called penal substitution atonement. So, and where I'm going with this is you say, well, how did we define this? Because let me just give you the different words that are used for atonement. So this is one. I can't pronounce these things because I'm not a Greek. So this one here in 1st John 2, I can spell it for you.

It's H-I-L-A-S-M-O-S. So what is that? Elasmus. All right. So if I do an AI gives you an overview, it says atoning sacrifice used in 1 John 2-2 and 4-10 exclusively to describe Jesus as the, and here's another word,

propitiation for sins, as explained. And then he puts the resource here, or he, I'm calling A-I-E. Then you have another word for propitiation, which is, this word is,

who, H-I-L-A-S-T-E-R-I-O-N. Now, according to this, it's used twice. It's used in Romans 325, so I think I should read that. And it's more about the mercy seat or the place that this propitiation, which will define. You want to give a definition on that, Zach, what people say? This morning, I thought back to a couple of past dogs we had. one I thought I was Gabe.

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All right. So Romans 325, God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement. Now, I have a little letter in my Bible, and it says, or is the one who would turn aside God's wrath taking away sin, but this was the 1984 NIV. So there's another letter in the current NIV that says, see Leviticus 16, 15, and 16. Let's see, Leviticus 16, 15, and 16.

I guess I need to read that. So we'll do the technical side of this, and then we can talk about it practically. Leviticus 1615 says, so now we're going, Old Testament, we're going to the law, the day of atonement is the title in Leviticus 16. It says he shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull's blood. He shall sprinkle it on the atomic. cover and in front of it.

In this way, he will make atonement for the most holy place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. So this is the seat on top of the ark is what it is. And it looks like two angels, two cherubs, and that's what's called the mercy seat. So I think that's helpful because the other verse that that word is used. And look, this is the only two. on this one. So you have two for this propitiation,

which we haven't defined yet, Zach. Hebrews 9-5. Yeah, I mean, I think that perpetuation would be that there's an infraction, there's a payment that must be satisfied. Maybe a debt. Yeah, a debt. Consequence of sin.

Or even the wrath. You know, we've seen the song, The wrath of God is satisfied. that's where the big debates at right now is, is, does God pour out his wrath on the sun? That's the big question. Well, save that because we'll just get the technical stuff, because that's the one point I have issue with. And look, you don't agree with me? Fine.

Read the verses and come up with what you will. But I just want to get the technical stuff. So I want to read this Hebrews 9 on the other word for about the place. because I believe that's the presence of God. It was in Leviticus. He's coming into the tabernacle. They're doing these sacrifices. Now, Jesus is making the presence of God in heaven itself,

which is the Hebrews 9-5. And the description before you read it is the Hebrew writer is describing the holy place, the most holy place, what's in there, and how each of these things mattered to God. Right. So that's the 7th. So Hebrews 9-5, above the ark were the cherubim of the glory, overshadowing the atomic cover or the mercy seat.

Now, then there's three different times in Hebrews that it talks about Jesus entered heaven itself. Yeah. On our behalf. Right. So you're getting the idea of atonement to make the presence of God available for humans. Right. So you have those two words, and then you have another word. This is when Atoment is involved.

And it's translated reconciliation in your Bible. So this is Romans 5-11. I'll read it real quick. So it's different words. So my point for doing all this is when you read Atoment in the Bible, we just have English-speaking translations, which have the same word, but I'm telling you these are different words.

Yeah. So it will help you understand. the arguments and what this means and how to figure this out if you put the right word with the right translation in the text so for this word reconciliation and it's spelled a k-a-t-cat-a-l-l-a-g-e so Romans 5-11 says not only is this so but we also rejoicing God through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Now, and you remember the context. While we were sinners, God, you know, verse 8, God demonstrates his own love for us while we were yet, sinners, Christ died for us. Verse 9. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath

through him? See, it's the same talk about God's wrath, the blood, the sacrifice. His love. Yeah. But It's a different word. This is reconciliation. This is why the original word atonement in the English language, go do a rabbit hole on it,

literally meant at one meant. So it's at one. Two parties that are estranged or broken or alienated, they have been united at one meant. So that's why Atom it. That's where we get the English word. Right. You see?

Yeah. So the other place, it's only used four times, but there are versions of reconciliation all over the place. So that's used a lot. Second Corinthians five is used to. Oh, Second Corinthians' Five. I was going to read it because that's where we need to hang out a little bit to understand this.

So Second Corinthians five, we have this judgment seat of Christ that shows up in verse 10. and then we have verse 14, I think is key, because it says for Christ, love compels us because keep in mind, before I give you my thoughts, these two words for this propitiation or satisfying God's wrath are only used in 1st John. And one of them is used in a chapter where the word love is used 27 times.

In 15 versions. I do not think that's an accident. Yeah. Because jumping ahead to where the arguments form, some people tend to stress the appeasement of God's wrath, and some people stress God's love, and this judgment is an act of love because of his righteousness is justice. Right.

I kind of lean on that side because this word is brought up in a chapter where it says God is love. Yeah. So, let me read where it says reconciliation. So in verse, well, let me read verse 14 of chapter 5, 2nd Corinthians, the whole thing. For Christ's love compels us because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died, which is similar to 1st John 2, which says he's the atoning sacrifice, not only not only for those who are following, but for the whole world.

But then it says, if anyone is in Christ, verse 17, he's a new. creation, the old is gone. All this is from God who reconciled. So there's another word used for atonement, this cat word. And then he gave us the ministry

of reconciliation. So we actually had the ministry of atonement, bringing people back together with God through declaring Jesus. Which is exactly why I believe God, I mean, John said that not

only for our sins, but the sins of the whole world, Christ's sacrifice for atonement is big enough to always be available for more, which is the point Paul's making here. Yeah. But some of the argument on the other side is that is, no, we got what we need. Yeah. And I'm like, no, it's bigger than that. You've got to think bigger. It's more. More is the word. Exactly. So now I'm just going to declare where I'm at. And I realize some people will not agree with me. I'm pretty sure that most of those people are not listening to this podcast. Because I've had multiple discussions with people, and I'm like, okay, you're highlighting the wrath of God. I'm more highlighting love. But I believe, like in penal substitution, I believe there's

a payment that had to be made. I believe that Jesus substituted himself for us. I even think the reason he chose the way to do it, because it was certainly his choice, because He said, you don't take my life, I give it, was to show how bad sin it is. Oh, I agree. Well, because when you get into the, I think the biggest issue is if some camps would say that the father poured out his hatred and wrath on the son. Right. Now, I don't agree with that. So I'm just, I was fixed to say that.

Number one, I don't agree that Jesus was punished by God. Here's why. and I'll just give you my overtake in as fast as I can. So when I think fire and punishment, I think Genesis, where's the story of Sodom and Gamar? Genesis did I know? Oh, 19, 24 and 25. And look, Jude, on his take on Sodom and Gamar,

he uses the word punished. Yeah. They were punished as an example. Right. I'll give you another verse. Second Thessalonians 1-8 talking about fire and punishment. It says that when Jesus comes back, he will punish those who do not know God.

He'll come in blazing fire and who don't know the truth. Well, I'm looking at this at Jesus. Well, he knows God. And nowhere in this book does it say he punished Jesus. That's why I went through the technical analysis of this, that's the Greek word for the place of atonement, him opening up God's presence to us. But it says he punished sin in sinful man. So if you've been to the grocery store lately, everything's costing way more.

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So in Romans 8, this is where this comes from. But just read it carefully. Verse 1. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus, the law of the Spirit of life, set me free from the law of sin of death, for what the law was powerless to do and that it was weakened by the sinful nature.

Here we go. God did by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And we're not saying he didn't offer his son. And look, we're not saying, based on John 10, that Jesus didn't willingly give up his life, which we did a whole podcast on the definition of love, is Jesus giving himself?

The ultimate exactly. Yes. So, and so, here we go. He condemned sin in sinful man in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us. So, and that's why I also said, he also defeated the spiritual forces of evil

that had a hand in that. That's why 1st John 3. Yeah, it's, well, it's the, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus for the law, the spirit of life has set you free in Jesus Christ Jesus from the loss and in death for what, for God

has done with the law weakened by the flesh. So that's a big line there. Why was the law weakened by the flesh is because the flesh is sinful. Like we are, we're in sinful flesh. And so Christ so we couldn't know. So Christ but Christ never sin. But he does

entered into flesh. And so if you think about the, even as we're in first and second John, Think about how John defines the Antichrist. The Antichrist is anyone who says that Christ did not come in the flesh. Well, why is that? Because that's the whole point of Christ. God comes in flesh, lives a perfect life in human flesh,

and that flesh is killed, and then that flesh is vindicated through the resurrection. And so it is a lot about victory. I tend to hold the position, though, that there is a payment. Like, sin has to be paid for where I think that people push back against the hard, what I would say more of the, the hard view that the son himself, like that God didn't pour his wrath out on the sin in the sun. He poured his wrath out on the sun. I think you have an issue there with the disruption of the triune nature of God. You know, did God really turn his face away?

You know, I mean, let's bring that up, for example. You know, whenever he says, my God, my God, why hast thou for something? saking me. This is actually a key point. Let me get my Bible because I got to hold on one second. Hold that thought. Well, I would say, Zach, while you're looking that up, I mean, Jesus is still suffering today in us. I mean, there's a ton of verses that, man, when he told Saul, he said, why are you persecuting me? Well, we have the spirit of him in us. My point, my whole point is, if he was being punished, not punishing sin, then why in the world would the whole four Gospels

would he be telling us to give our lives up? Why would the apostles, look, all die, martyrs, if this was somehow us being punished. But you have to understand where they get that from. They get that. I think people get there. I understand how you would get there, because when Christ is on the cross,

he does say, my God, my God, why have thou forsaken me? Right? So you had this picture on the cross of what seems to be the father turning his face away from the son. We used to sing this song of church. The father turns his face away. But here's why I have an issue with that is mainly because I think that what Jesus is doing there, when he says, my God, my God, why have thou forsaken me? I think he's quoting Psalm 22.

No, you don't think he's definitely. He's not, don't think it. He's quoting it. So go read Psalm 22. Let me read Psalm 22 and you tell me just by reading of the Psalm here, if this is a picture of the father turning his face away. Is this a picture of the father hiding his face from the son? That's the phrase we want to hang on to.

Is the father, according to Psalm 22, hiding his face from the son? my God my God why have you forsaken me why are you so far from me saving me from the words of my groaning oh my god i cry out by day but you do not answer and by night i but i do not find rest yet you are holy enthroned on the praises of israel if you are in you are fathers trusted and you delivered them to you they cried out and you rescued them and you they trusted and we're not put to shame And then he goes on, and you see this whole thing about the dogs encircle me. He says, a company of evil doers encircle me. They pierced my hands.

What does that sound like? Sounds like the crucifixion, right? They pierced my and feet. This is Psalm 2216. I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them. And for my clothing, they cast lots.

What does that sound like? Exactly what happened to Jesus. but you, O Lord, do not be far off. And he keeps on asking the Lord to save him. God save me, save me, save me. And then skip down to these few verses here. This is in verse 24. For he is not despised or have abhorred the affliction of the afflicted.

And listen to this. And he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard him when he cried. So I'm reading the psalmist. and the psalmist clearly says that as the Christ cries out, don't forsake me. The answer is, I'm not. The answer is I'm not. The father does not hide his face from him when he,

and the father has heard the son when he cried to him. And so I think when you read Psalm 22, that verse 24 to me, it really kind of destroys that, that view, that somehow God looked on the son And when he was on the cross, he was just like, I can't look anymore. And he turned away and rejected the sign.

I don't know how that's possible. Even ontologically, in the very nature. I don't see how that's possible. I agree. And I agree that there is a payment made. He did pay for the sins. It does make you sin utterly sinful. To me, your attitude is not going to change as far as abhoring sin

and what it does to people and the consequences. and he did make the payment. I just have the motivating factor as love when you read 2 Corinthians 5 where it says for Christ's love compelled us. Now, you say, what was the context of that? Now, I want you to notice this. I think 2 Corinthians 5 is so incredibly difficult

to get around because he starts off of this judgment scene about all appearing for the judgment seat of Christ. Because what this, it's hard for me to characterize their argument, because I don't, I don't want to get it wrong. But what this making appeasing God's judgment, the gospel, instead of God's judgment being appeased through the offering of his son in love, which is where I'm at, which sounds similar, but I'm just saying I've talked to these people and they're like, oh no, oh no.

The stress is God's, you know, appeasement. The love is minimized. Now that'll agree with it, but it's just minimized. So in all the sermons, you're like, hey, it's not good news. And that's my biggest problem with it. And it is detached from the resurrection. So in light of... Can I say one thing?

because we're about out of time. And I do, I can pick this up, because I've made a pretty bold statement there, I think could get a lot of people upset. But on the flip side, there is a flip side of this that we also have to deal with that there's another side of this argument

that basically says, God's not really mad at all at you for your sin. You're a sinner in your own mind. You're not actually, and God is just like, but I think that's equally damaging because what I think that's just almost downright, silly. And that's why I brought up Sodom and Amar.

But now you want punishment, that was punishment. But what I was going to make a point, I didn't realize we were almost at her time, and I want to say this. What did God tell the humans in the garden? If you sin, what will happen? You'll die. You'll die. As a punishment, I would say yes. Well, when you look at Jesus, why stress all this after he died?

His body didn't see decay. why did the first apostles stress that in their sermon? You remember Acts 2? Yeah. It's like, well, he didn't experience that punishment for sin. He didn't have any sin. Right. And it takes me back to the story of Abraham and Isaac.

You remember that where he was willing to sacrifice? And God would have been justified in doing that. You know, he would have been sinful or Abraham was sinful. Why didn't he do that? Why is that the shadow? Are you willing to do it? I just don't think you can make that up as for showing that God did this willingly out of love.

So I do want to read this second thing, this five out of love. So he gives the judgment scene, verse 10, then he gets to 14, and he says, if we're out of our mind, that's 13. For Christ's love compels us. Christ's love because we are convinced that one died for all. He equated his love with him dying on a cross for everybody,

which was going to be point number two is that I don't agree that Jesus was punished. He took the punishment for our sin, the punishment and consequences of sin that we did. He took that, you know, by dying. and number two, for some reason that they then conclude that he didn't die for everybody. And in both cases where, which there's only four verses that talks about it, he makes a point to say, and he didn't just die for you, he died for everybody. And here he equates it to Christ's love.

And he said, and therefore all died. Which I take from that, that flesh is not bad. The choice to disobey God is what's bad. Hope this helps. And look, there's... Hold on, let me give one disclaimer because I didn't get to say, there's so much nuance around this.

Don't take anything we said in this and turn it into a sound bite because this is a much bigger discussion. Well, that's probably going to do that. There's a lot here. Yeah. Yeah. Context is king.

All right of time. Yeah, I think the subtle differences, that's why this is so frustrating. Like overall, like I said, I agree with the concepts, but it's what you stress. And, you know, look, fire is a punisher,

but it's also a refiner. Yeah. So every time you read the word fire, it's not necessarily a bad thing, even though suffering is involved. Yeah, that's a good point. All right, we're out of time. We'll pick it up next time.

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