Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1304 | This Is Why So Many People Don’t Believe in God Today

Episode Date: April 3, 2026

John Luke, Christian, and Zach witness Al’s unexpected confession about a “girly” habit that he swears by. John Luke offers his perspective on why God doesn’t reveal Himself in obvious, overwhelming ways, and why Jesus followed that same pattern during His life on earth. The guys wrestle with modern skepticism, pointing out that many people reject God for not acting the way they expect. They dig into early church history, exposing how ancient false teachings about Jesus’ humanity and divinity are still resurfacing today in new forms.  In this episode: 1 John 4, verses 1–3; 2 John, verse 7; 1 Corinthians 15, verses 1–8; John 1, verses 1–14; 1 Timothy 3, verse 16; 1 Corinthians 6, verse 19; Romans 5, verses 12–21 Today’s conversation is about Lesson 5 of Ancient Christianity taught by visiting Hillsdale Professor of History Kenneth Calvert. Take the course with us at no cost to you! Sign up at http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/. More about Ancient Christianity: Christ entered the world during the reign of Caesar Augustus. The tensions between Christianity and the Roman Empire shaped the daily practice of the Christian faith and led many Romans to distrust and persecute the early Christians. But Christianity also benefitted from the Roman world. And when Rome collapsed in the West, Christianity provided the hope for preserving civilization. In this free, eleven-lecture course, Professor Kenneth Calvert will explore: How the Jewish, Greek, and Roman cultures all contributed to preparing the world to hear the Gospel. Why many Romans distrusted and persecuted the early Christians. The inspiring stories of Christ, His apostles, and faithful ones throughout the first four centuries of Christianity. The arguments of key early Christian apologists—Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin, Athanasius, and more—who defended and defined the Christian faith amidst the animosity of the Roman world. The conversion of Constantine and how he brought stability to Rome, and how the rivalry between his sons almost returned Rome to paganism. How Augustine’s writings helped preserve the message of Christianity during the collapse of the Roman Empire in the West. You will discover the uncertainties, trials, and triumphs of the earliest Christians as they confronted controversies within the faith and persecutions from outside it. Join us today to discover the improbable and miraculous story of Christianity. Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters 00:00 Al’s Pedicure Confession 08:02 Why God Reveals Himself Quietly 19:18 The Ancient Heresy Still Haunting the Church 25:42 Jesus’ Body Changes Everything 32:18 Creeds, Scripture, & What the Church Preserved 39:20 Apostles, Authority, and Testing the Spirits 45:42 The Ancient Errors Christians Repeat Today — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? All right. Ready? Yeah. Three, two, one. Welcome back. Welcome back to. I thought I thought, yeah, this is my show. I just went into all of them.

Yeah. Sorry. You're one three, four. I'm Friday. Sorry, sorry, sorry. So welcome back to the Unashamed, the podcast. This is our Friday, Unashamed for Hillsdale. And you guys can actually sign up.

You can take this course for free. with us at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. And here's the deal. Check this out. We're going to pick one listener to come down to West Monroe, Louisiana, and to watch a live recording of Unashame. We're going to pay for travel and lodging for you and a guest up to $1,000. All you got to do is take the course we're on right now.

It's called Ancient Christianity Course. You take it with us. You got to finish all the quizzes. And then you send us your certificate of completion. Very simple. and you can upload that certificate at watchunashamed.com, and you'll be entered into the drawing, and we're going to pick a winner in June.

So we're in that course. We're all going to complete it. Hopefully we'll pass. And all the quizzes have to be passed for it to account, right, right? Well, you just have to have the certificate of completion. So I don't know. I guess you have to take the, I mean, I take the quizzes,

so I'm assuming you have to take them. I'm not sure. Yeah. These felt a little trickier to you. Yeah, I've been missing a few questions. I don't normally miss questions because I'll take it right after the lecture, but they've been a little trickier. They have been trickier.

Yeah. That must be just... Well, we're getting out of our wheelhouse. We're getting out of our wheelhouse now because we know the Bible, but this is like church history, some things like that, you know. And we're kind of treading the new waters here, so I think that's why. But it's been really interesting. Yes, I did what we were discussing where do we go with the beginning, because typically we have what we call a cold opening, just kind of break through the fourth wall here. and we don't know which way to go.

We're going one direction that Al said something about a pedicure. And so we kind of stop the conversation. Everybody laugh. So I'm secure enough in my masculinity. I do love a good pedicure. Yeah. But I usually get one if it's like Sadie invites me. Yeah.

I don't usually go like seek after it myself. Well, I never go without Lisa either. I never have. It would be weird for me to go by myself. Plus, you don't want to be like the one. creepy guy in there unless you're with your wife. And actually yesterday, it was the Lisa and two granddaughters who was actually four us. The problem with that was they only have four people working. So they went straight to my feet because they needed the most

work, I guess. So then I had to wait like a long time and I don't do well waiting. So it was a bit of an issue. But I did take my book with me and I did some study. Do you laugh? I laugh. Whenever they get the scrubber thing out. The little cheese grater. Oh, I don't. Yeah. I'm like, cackling. Oh, it's like underneath mine, it's like a little alpine village down there with what they're getting off my feet. So what was, but what was your, you gave us the rationale, which I didn't see coming. What I'd say, tell us, why did you start? It was actually, and it's kind of ironic because I'm going on a cruise next week, a carnival cruise next week. And the first one I ever got was on a carnival cruise because.

Wait, getting a pedicure is ironic because you're going on a cruise. Well, it's ironic because I'm going again this week. And we're having this. But you want your feet to look good. for the cruise is what you're saying. No, not really. It was just time to clip them. So now what happens is when it's time to clip,

that's when it's like, okay, when are we doing the feet? Because either I'm going to have to do it myself or we're going to have to find one of these lovely ladies to do it. And I've noticed they always go women to men and men to women. They never go dude to dude on your feet. I don't know if that's just a thing, if that's a cultural thing, if that's me. I'm sure one of our listeners will let me know.

Frank probably knows. Yeah, he probably knows. And so it was time. And so, and that's what she said. She said, do you want me to clip these nails? And I said, oh, that's why I'm here. Because Zach, when I used to be heavier version of myself, it was hard to clip my toenails without. And by heavy, you mean obese.

I know. What was the word viscerally obese? Visceral fat, visceral fat. That's what. Which just makes it sound worse. You're not just obese, you're viscerally obese. And so it makes it difficult. It's a potential back injury every time you clip your toenails or tie your shoes.

So I went, like most men do at my age, I went sketchers. And then I went to pedicures. Like the shape-ups? Yeah, you got to have the slip bones. So that's what you do. Until you lose weight, of course, which I did. There are good friends at Ph.D. Weight balls.

And now I can do it myself, but I prefer it because my feet never have felt better than post-peticure. So there you go. But you choose no nail color. No nail color. I mean, I have limits. Like, I won't go by myself. I hadn't thought about that. Gras, but I've never gone alone.

And then I can't do the, they try to get you to put like the clear. And I said, I don't want to shiny. I just can't. For the cruise, you should get a color. You should get like a baby blue to match the water. Well, that was funny because my grandda. yesterday. They had like, which took longer, by the way, they had them draw

little designs on theirs. Yeah. You know, they're like, Pat, you should get one of these. I was like, hmm. I mean, there's just only so far I can go. Are you taking a quiz now? Yeah. John Luke's taking the quiz. John Luke, he wants to go to the

finish his quiz. Yeah, you're, you don't have to submit. You don't have to submit your you can get hills on your left feet and then Dale on your right with like an exclamation. Yeah, that's what we need. Well, we do have new Hillsdale merch on.

Can we say that, Maddie? Can we break down the fourth wall? Okay. Shut out. So they did send us some new merch, which I, it's really comfortable. It's very nice. Yeah. And John Luke didn't get this because my last name's Huff.

So I could. Yeah, you could rock this. And you got that. I do have a shirt, but I'll wear it on the next episode. Okay. Excellent. Smart. Yeah.

So, Zach, have you never had a pedigure? Never. Not going to do it. You said you had limits. My limit is a limit before your line. Your limit's no nail polish. Mine's no pedicure. You would enjoy it.

I don't think I would. Some people don't like people messing with their feet. I don't even like the whole, I'll be honestly, even the massage thing. I'm like, I mean, I've had one, but I'm like, oh, that's a little weird. If you do like the hot stones, it feels good. Oh, yeah. Now, if you want to get me. I'm not about the massage too.

Well, I don't, yeah. Well, when you're, when you're muscular like Christian and I are, you know, it feels a lot better. It's, yeah. I understand if you're kind of bony. man, I'm not bony. I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I'm a little fat. You know, I mean, but I used to, I used to be in shape. I was never like Christian, you know, you're, you're, you're becoming a beast, man. I'm like watching your Instagram videos and I'm like, this guy. Thank you, Zach. I appreciate that. This guy. And every now and then you'll put

something on there. I got to, I got to make a comment on. And then you'll, I'll let it sit with you for a little bit. Then you'll call me six hours later. You'll leave me a quasi-confusing emoji. Well, yeah, that was a great discussion. And then John Luke sends me a text the other day, which I thought was kind of the deeper question about, hey, what do you think about this? And I sent something back that I thought, like I took time to respond.

It wasn't like, it was, and then crickets, no response. Yes, I was going to call you after because your response was so deep. I was like, I'm not going to write another book after you just wrote me a book of this response. I was like, I feel like to explain why I asked this question, I needed it needed to be a phone call. And then I just never had time for the phone call.

And I was like, when you get a chance, call me. Yeah. Yeah. And as soon as you do, as you're starting into your point, he'll say, oh, I got to take this other call. So just call me later. I got to happen to that. Well, what I liked about your response is it was so deep and so thorough to end with yes.

Like, as I was reading it, I thought you were going to say no, like you were disagreeing with me. And then you ended with, yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, it was basically, yes, but here's the caveats about, you know. So now that we've talked about it, I'll ask the question here. But because it kind of will kind of get into. It's about Jesus's life. And my question was, we see in the world that we live in, right? now, a, I would say reservation of God to intervene in a way that we know is him or in

worldwide events. Like, he's not coming through the clouds speaking with a physical voice telling us stuff. There, it's a, I don't like to use a word hidden because I don't think, I think God wants us to know him and he's revealing himself to him. But there is a, slow, quiet revelation of God, not this, like, out loud thing we see. And I was thinking about that as it relates to Jesus because we see the same thing with Jesus. It was a slow revelation. And you're saying like his teaching and his ministry and Jesus didn't come out from the game.

Like he could have overwhelmed everybody. He could have said, he could have said at 12 years old, I'm the. Messiah and started it from there. But he waited until he was 30. Because you're right. He said in my father's house. Obviously he knew at some level there. Right. But at 30, he started gathering his disciples. He often, he would do a miracle and he would tell everyone like, don't tell anyone about this. Like the time is not right. The time is not right. And all the way up to the very end, he didn't have this big reveal of who he was. It was like a kind of a quiet life that he lived. I think we see that same thing with God now.

And so to me, that's not, that's what I would expect to see from God in the world. And the reason I thought about this in the first place is because there was, I was listed this guy's atheist talking about like why he doesn't believe in God. And one of the things he said was, if God was real, the God of the Bible, I think he would have revealed himself more openly. Like we would see him in the sky or whatever in an open way. and I was like, actually we wouldn't because that's not how Jesus was. That's so interesting.

I was just reading this book talking about the same thing. It was these two early historians like first and second century. And they were saying they don't believe the like the gospel in Jesus because they're like after the resurrection, why would he appear to women and to peasants? They were like, why would he not appear to Caesar and Pilate and like all these powerful people? And so they literally discredited the Bible because. of who he chose not to appear to, which I don't think we technically, I don't think we really know who he, you know, I don't think, I don't know if you can say he did not appear to someone like that. But their whole basis was on discrediting that because of who they don't think he appeared to. So it's interesting that there were moments in his, in the three-year ministry, at least, where you had a voice or, you know, like the Transfiguration at his baptism. But even then, you know, I'm not sure what they were hearing because you mean, you get that,

so it says, you know, they heard thunder or, you know, like, it wasn't even meant for everybody in the moments of that, which I think the whole thing with the, his moment with the baptism, was as much for John's, John the Baptist, you know, recognition as anything, oh, this is the guy, you know, because up to this point, he's baptizing people. They're related, so he knew he was special, but until that moment, I don't think he knew he was the one. until God told him, you know, in the moment. So there was a little direct, but like you say, it wasn't even meant for the masses then because it would kind of be covered.

Right. You know, or even like the, when Paul on the road to Damascus, you know, there was a group there, but like they didn't understand what it had. They didn't hear what he was hearing either. I don't guess. Yeah. It's what it says. So it is interesting that he chose the subtle.

And I think it was in the last episode when we were talking about that. I had not thought about all the other people claiming to. to be messiahs of that century. So there was something definitely unique about it being, when it was under Roman rule, a prophecy fulfillment from Daniel, which we talk about a lot in the Son of Man, that had been pointed to 600 years earlier.

So in that moment, there were a lot of people claiming to be the Messiah. Well, you see that in Acts when the Pharisees are talking and they're saying, you know, like if this is from God, you won't be able to oppose it. So, yes, kind of giving credence to that. the fact that there were many people at that time claiming divinity and claiming to be messias,

but obviously Jesus is the one that is still carrying along. If it's not from God, it'll die out, which all those other false messias did. We don't even know how their names. I mean, we'd have to like, I mean, we could go researching, but we can't even say them off the top of our head, where the whole world just about knows the name of Jesus. And so it's certainly Christianity did not die out. And so we're doing this episode on ancient Christianity. this is lecture five.

So I thought this one was really good. I'll give a couple caveats, though. And again, just for, you know, Frank and some of the guys out there, you got to remember, like, we're getting different perspectives. And so, you know, this course is obviously taught. I think Dr. Calvert may be Catholic, so you can definitely sense some of the Catholic men on some of the teaching of this. And I think that's healthy for us to, like, listen to other perspectives and other things as we move through this.

I found this to be helpful. What's weird is because we're now going in, this is about the apostles, the creeds, and then the scripture. It's essentially the history of the church from the ancient documents up to 837. So that's this particular lecture. Al, do you know we grew up in a denomination that was, I think that we would have probably said, at least the way I grew up hearing this, we were non-credal. since then I've come to really appreciate a lot of the creeds and when you understand them in their proper order.

The creeds were written essentially to preserve some of the doctor of the church, but it's just like simple ways of just understanding, you know, how to teach this and move it on. What I found to be so interesting about this lecture, and I listened to it, and it's so funny because I've been on another, I've been on this same exact discussion, before I even listened to it for probably the last week.

We had the girl on the podcast recently. I don't know if it'll air before this one or not. Melissa. Dority. Yeah, she had talked about coming out of the New Age movement and the new thought movement, which a lot of people in the church I go to have come out of that. And one of the things that she has said was kind of like,

I'm kind of paraphrasing, but like one of the dividing lines between what she would call, like, a version of Christianity that's not actually Christianity, that's just borrowing from the language and real Christianity, kind of that dividing line, was this idea that Christ came in the flesh. And I was really appreciative of Dr. Calvert's emphasis

on showing how that one thing seemed to be the dividing line even in the early church. Like all the heresies that really kind of entered in that were most of those heresies that were addressed, in some form or fashion, and they had something to do with, did Christ actually have a body,

and was there a physical resurrection? And I thought, man, that's an interesting, it seems so simple, but right? You know, he read Second John. Y'all have that, by the way, that Second John, I don't want to read that. Why are you looking that up? Let me remind you guys,

we want you to take the course with us for free at Unashamefor Hillsdale.com. And Zach mentioned this earlier, but we're going to pick one listener to come down to West Winrow, watch a live recording of Unashame. We're going to pay for your travel, your lodging and a guest up to $1,000 each.

All you have to do is take ancient Christianity. All you have to do is take the ancient Christianity course with us. Finish all the quizzes. Send us your certificate of completion because I always print mine out so I can show Kristen. You can upload your certificate at watchunashamed.com and you'll be entered for the drawing. We're going to pick a winner in June. Are you going to come in time for this, Zach? Oh, yeah.

I'll be there. I'll be there. I better say, you can't be virtual for that. No, no, no, we'll come in town. We'll hang out. and yeah we'll have a good time. Did you find the text in second John? I did.

I'm going to read two texts here. I think he read the second John, but I'm going to read First John 4 and then I'll move to Second John. I literally just had this conversation with our house church a few nights ago. This is in First John 4. Peter Thiel right now is traveling across the world doing lectures on the Antichrist, which I haven't got to listen to any of them yet. Very curious to what he's going to say on that.

What he is saying, probably not an agreement with what we would believe. but there's a whole lot of talk about what is the Antichrist, who is the Antichrist? Listen to what John says in 1 John. He says that by this you know, because a lot of false prophets have gone out into the world, but here's how you know.

You've got to test the spirits to see where they're from. By this, you know the Spirit of God. That's the Holy Spirit. Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. So according to the Apostle John, the spirit of the Antichrist is to literally say that Christ didn't come in the flesh. So then you go to the 2nd John, and 2nd John says something very similar.

He says, for many deceivers have gone out into our world, into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. such a one is the deceiver and the Antichrist. So you think about like, what is the most central thing about Christ, about Jesus? And I've sat there and wrestled with that. And I think the answer is is a body. You know, a body because when you think about Jesus, Jesus was not in the Old Testament.

You have the son. But when Jesus comes on the scene, Jesus is the incarnation of the sun. It literally, it's God, he is God in flesh. And so when you think about to be anti-Christ, it really just means that you don't really believe that Jesus came in the flesh. You don't believe that God came in flesh. That is literally what Christ is.

That is the Messiah that God came in the flesh. And so I just found that to be so, what's the word I'm looking for? It just confirmed, it confirmed everything that I had been looking at that see that, man, this was kind of the core argument of the church at the very beginning. And any heresy that would try to drip into the church, in some capacity, it was trying to diminish either the deity of Christ or the humanity or the body of Christ, one of the two. He was trying to separate that out.

I don't know if you guys. picked up on that at all. Yeah, I do have a quick question. I was talking to John Look about this last night, because it made me think of it while studying this and talking about, you know, the incarnate and Jesus becoming flesh and all those things. So my question was, and this might lead to a deeper discussion, but so when when Jesus is talking about Satan, he says, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven, would that, because I was also talking about Genesis 1 where it, you know, God's walking in the garden and the cool day with Adam and Eve, would that be like Jesus in his form that he is now outside of time and space in Genesis 1 and like when he saw Satan fall like lightning? Or would that be

the deity of Christ before he's incarnated as a human? Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, I think that's the Bill Smith helped me with us years ago that when you talk about Jesus, you are talking about. You are talking about the one who is born into a baby, right? And so Jesus doesn't come on the scene until Mary has an immaculate conception and gives birth to the Christ. Well, who is the Christ? Then the question, who is the Christ? Oh, well, he's the incarnated person of the God that you just mentioned in Genesis who saw Satan fall like lightning, you know, who was there and the whole world was created. That's kind of John's teaching, right? John, in the beginning was the word. The word was with God. The word was God. And then the word became flesh. So Jesus is the

word becoming flesh. And so that idea of flesh is very earthy. It's very meaty. And that was the center of the teaching of who Christ was. And it's just funny that these ancient heresies have reformed and repackaged in different ways, but we're still dealing with the same basic four heresies that he mentioned, you know, in this lecture and just different forms, but, you know, still dealing with that here some 2,000 years later. It is interesting, Zach, in my notes here, my handwritten notes that I like to take, I wrote Melissa Dardy on Unashamed, New Age, New Thought, because I had exactly the same thought you had, that, and she's, you know, I don't know, within the last few years, a convert from this mindset.

And I thought just like Zach did, I was like, wow, this thing just keeps coming back and back and back. I mean, and I guess it'll never end. And I don't know if that's just because how powerful, Zach, the Greek thought was, because that seemed to be the birthplace of this idea. Maybe not. Maybe it's even before that. But it's so, it's so permeated, even 2,000 years later, the same concept that it's about, it's about your thoughts, and it's about, you know, energy and, you know, the flesh is no good, and it's got to be above that. But what we came to the discussion with Melissa about when she was explaining it, because I never heard anybody really explained what they believed, and she did.

And immediately, I went to this idolatry. I mean, what she's describing is idolatry, and she said, yes, that's it, because it's all about you there. It's all about you, your experiences, you know, you're the God, you look in the mirror, and all this positive stuff that people do, all this like Dale Carnegie, she mentioned, all this stuff, it's built around this idea that it's all about you. And Christianity is the exact opposite because it's all about Christ. And so it's just another form of idolatia.

And that has been around since the beginning. I mean, no doubt about it, before the Greeks, before everyone. Well, you have the Abyanites that denied that Jesus was divine, and they claimed that he was only like a human prophet. You had the Gnostics that denied, that we talk a lot about Gnosticism, mainly because we're in verse John right now on the broader landscape of the podcast. They denied that God became man. and so they rejected the material world.

The material world is bad, and you need to escape that. You know, this world's going to hell in a handbasket that's evil, and we've got to get out of the meat suit and get into our spiritual state so that we can be made one. And some even claim that Jesus did not on a cross, which is, again, you see that over and over in Scripture. I mean, Paul talks about that.

Some say that, you know, there's no resurrection of the dead, and he makes this incredible argument in 1st, Corinthians 15, he's like, hey, look, if there's no resurrection from the dead, Paul says, guess what, then Christ wasn't raised from the dead. And if Christ wasn't raised from the dead, then you're dead in your sins. And if you're still dead in your sins, then those who have fallen asleep, they're just dead. And if we only have hope for this life, he says, we're to be pity more than all men. So the center of the whole thing is, one, that Christ took on a body, two, that then that body actually walks on earth for 33 years.

walks a Roman road and is crucified on a Roman cross, and then that body is resurrected from the dead three days later, and that body ascends and now is sitting at the right hand of the father mediating for us. So Christianity alone has a very, very high view of the body, and Dr. Calvert pointed this out. He's, I mean, what does it say, what does it basically say about God's view of the material universe, if Christ, if God himself took on the nature of that material universe in the form of the human body, it actually says that God has a very high view of the body. And it is one of the things, by the way, I do appreciate about some of the other faith traditions outside the Protestant Reformation.

We're byproducts and I'm certainly a Protestant, but I do appreciate a very earthy view of the kingdom. I think it's helpful, and I think that we've lost some of that in the church over the year. So some of that, some of this lecture was very helpful for me. You brought up about the creeds, and you're right. I chose this hat on purpose today because of that, because in essence, I mean, these are little symbols, hieroglyphics we call them that Bill Smith came up with, but it was a creed to describe the story of Jesus. I mean, this is a creed. I mean, that was one of ours, you know, and you mentioned about the group we grew up in, Zabwe, they claim to be no creeds

and then there was list after list of stuff you can do. Right. It just wasn't written down. It's just right. I mean, but everybody understood if you're going to be in this group, you got to do this, you got to do this,

you got to do this, you got to do this. So the creeds were there. You know, whether you had them written out and everybody memorized them, our creed was, we have no creed. But that's a creed. Yeah.

It's the first rule of fight club. I wrote that down to you in my notes, the creeds because whenever I married Mary Kate my wife she grew up Presbyterian and they had creeds they have got creeds on creeds on creeds they've got the whole book the greater and lesser catechisms and when I read that I was like oh wow this is awesome it's just like a list of here's what we believe yeah simplified and I think that that's so good and it's so good like and I read them to my kids and they learned like the greater less catechisms and all the different things. But I think the problem that I think the Church of Christ and that people who are

anti-crete, the problem is I say it's too simple. And when I first started reading them, I'd be like, oh, well, that's a little simplified. Like, oh, it's like more than that. And there is a problem with that. But that's understanding it for what it is. And I think that's the problem that you saw, they talked about in that early church. What would happen is they started making these creeds because people needed to learn the basics, and they weren't learning them, so there's heresy. But then people started believing the creed over the scripture or over the story, and they got them mixed up.

Well, and look, I mean, he gave a great example. I thought he was right on Target when he went to 1st Corinthians 15, which the whole Corinthian letter, and then he made a great mention about even the second generation. They were still having trouble with the Corinthian church, with who's a clement of Romans had to send letters but he but paul's going along describing the problems they're having and tell them how to live better and then he just has a little creed in there and first greek this 15 you know one through eight he's like now look all this stuff

i'm telling but here's the don't forget the most important thing and then he just goes through the gospel with him you know and so which was it early creed i mean really yeah that that the that verse and that text in 1st, 15, where Paul says, what I received, I passed on you as a first importance that Christ died for our sins. He was buried. He was raised from the third day. That is an oral

tradition that a lot of scholars believe that Paul received, I think, within like 15 months of the actual resurrection of Jesus. So Christ raises from the dead. Then Paul, Saul, has the radical encounter with Christ, the risen Christ on the road to Damascus. Then he goes

to meet with Mark, and I forgot who the other apostle was for basically training. And then during that training period, he received that oral tradition. So when you hear that cadence that Christ died, that he was buried, that he was raised, it almost has a cadence to it, right? That was a tradition that was passed down orally. And it's hard for us to imagine that because we don't remember anything because we have everything on our iPhone.

And now that we have chat GPT and Gronk and plod, clod, all that. the different bots. We don't remember anything. But there was a time in history, particularly in Jewish culture, where they would remember these things word for word and then passed them down hundreds and thousands of years. So Paul received from that oral tradition the earliest creed in the gospel, which is that Christ died. He was buried and he was raised on the third day. So it is important. Well, and the reason that they had those creeds was because most of the population at the time was illiterate, which I thought he did a good job explaining because I was not. I mean, I knew, I knew that, but I didn't fully understand giving credence, no pun intended, to the creeds of

why it was the way it was, because most of the population at the time was illiterate. So they needed something verbally to be able to communicate. Which would also describe probably some of the issues that got into in the second century, he mentioned with bishops. And because like anything else, if everybody's not on board of what we're doing here, a lot of times an authority can have their way of viewing things and then take it off course. And you'll follow them right off the cliff. So you can see where that would begin to happen.

And it still happened to me. Was that his point when he was talking about why people started making their own cannons and kind of changing? Right, exactly. And again, that's human nature, right? I mean, that's what people tend to do. We want you to sign up and take the course with us for free

at unashamed for Hillsdale.com. Go ahead. Yeah, I mean, I think that where I land on this, and this is, I mean, look, we're open for a lot of diversity on this and the diversity of thought. I think where I land on it is that the creeds are very helpful. I don't think they supplant the authority of scripture. Obviously, I'm a Protestant, so I believe in Solo Scriptora that that's your final authority. But I do think that the creeds are helpful.

I mean, even the Nicene Creed, the Apostles Creed, I mean, all of these are. And then moving in to the Reformation, and you have, like you mentioned, John Lake, the greater and shorter catechisms, which are simplified versions of the Westminster Confession. And then you got the Heidelberg. I think all these are helpful. And I think we can take them, but they're not scripture. You know, one of the things I thought was interesting, too, in the early church, I don't know if you guys picked up on the whole concept of apostolic secession.

That was interesting as well to see how that, because I've had lots of conversations on that recently with different people from different traditions, whether it be Eastern Orthodox or Catholic or even. in like what's called the new apostolic reformation. So there's a lot of like thought around apostolic secession, which is basically that the authority that the authority the apostles had, that they laid hands on people and then they transferred that authority. And so that authority, you know, where does that end and how does that work and all that?

That was, you know, that's certainly debatable. I think in the early church, though you clearly do see in scripture, that at least from the apostles in that second generation that you do see an apostolic secession. Beyond that, I mean, I don't know. I don't know if you guys had thoughts on that. Yeah, and you mentioned that on the regular, on the same podcast recently, Zach, and I didn't have a chance to that day, but I agree with what you said that I think there was something unique about the apostles, especially in relationship to miracles and the purpose of them.

and why they did what they did. And it seems to be that that was, I think, limited to that era versus today. Now, I know a lot of people would disagree with that because they think that still goes on. But it seemed like it had its purpose. There was something unique about the time when Jesus came. Demonic activity was probably from what you read in the scriptures. It was so much more than we could ever even imagine. I'm not saying it still doesn't go on.

But it certainly had a different effect when he was here. Even the other realm knew something big was happening because of what was going on. So I do think there were some unique things about that. I do think some of the practical things, you know, when you get into tongues and languages, and you look in Acts because he kind of went through Acts quickly. But, man, there's so much there when you think about the idea of the apostles and who they were. And so I think part of that's related to this idea that, you know, it was taking the people down a simple message of salvation.

So when you see that first sermon that Peter preached, and then you see them later repeat that in Acts 10 for the Gentiles, you do see a simple path for people to find Jesus. But as you were saying earlier, Lou, I think that it has to be seekers, right? I mean, it has to be people that want it, which is why I think God did it the way did it, in that more subtle vein. It's not out there to beat you over the head with it.

You know, it's out there for you to find. if you have the art willing to look. And so I think that continues on with this very day. Is that a quick question? Because I was kind of confused at what you said. So with the creeds, because of the creed in 1st, Corinthians 15, when you were talking about the Sola Scriptura, so is that creed, because it's in the scripture,

that creed is different than other creeds would have been at that time because they're not in scripture? Yeah, I mean, I may not call it a creed technically. I mean, I think it's scripture. right? And so the creeds would have, technically the creeds would have came after. It is kind of a teaching though. It's a teaching method, particularly that thing that was an oral tradition that was passed down that made it into the canon. But the actual creeds themselves would have been non-inspired. If you hold the position I hold, they're not inspired in the way that scripture is inspired. They're very helpful. And I think the Holy Spirit certainly, the way I mean, when I took this lecture, I thought this is what encouraged me. that it was like our faith is ancient um the holy spirit is real and he i think he did use these councils and these creeds to to preserve the truth of of the church and um i do believe that there's a continual deconsolidation because you do i mean you have to see the deconsolidation

even from the first century you know the first 300 years you see the church is greatly deconsolidating um over time on on some of this stuff like an apostolic secession even. I mean, it's hard to trace that back, in my opinion. I could be wrong. So nobody gets bent out of shape here. But it's hard for me to, I don't know, who can truly claim to be the true, I guess, lineage of apostolic secession because you have, I know at least of three groups that claim

to have like a direct lineage all the way back to the apostles. You have the Catholics, you have Eastern Orthodoxy, and you, have Oriental Orthodox Church as well. And so I don't know the answer how they parse that out. The new Apostolic Reformation guys, they're claiming that they get like private apostleship. I don't believe that. I don't think,

I don't know, that one I would certainly be out on because I think that's the whole point. Like, we're not getting private revelation that supersedes scripture. You know what I mean? I think you have to be careful of that. But I think what's interesting, though, it would encourage me in this course is that this, if you think of the center of heresy being

some kind of denial of Christ having a body or some kind of denial of Jesus in flesh being deity, you can kind of see how that goes both ways, right? That literally the way we would understand who the Christ is, he would be God incarnate. So all heresies, it seems like at some, at the base level of them, they either deny the deity of Christ or they deny the humanity of Christ. And that's encouraging because I think what we've seen as is the Holy Spirit has actually preserved that truth. And you see that that seems to be the centerpiece of the whole Christian world, Protestant,

Catholic, Orthodox, all of it, like the real Christians in the world, what do they have in common? They believe that God came in the flesh and that his flesh was crucified on the cross and his flesh went into a tomb, and his flesh was raised from the dead three days later and ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father, where he mediates for us, and he's going to come back and resurrect our bodies, and we're going to live in unity with him. That seems to be like the core, like the very core of the Christian faith.

And so it was very, very encouraging to see that that's an ancient truth that the Holy Spirit was using all of these different methods to preserve. that's how I the thing that the thing to me that made no sense and you talked about the Gnostics earlier but when he was talking about there was like a group of them that that believed that it was actually Simon of serene that was crucified and that Jesus projected his face onto him and to me like that doesn't make any it makes no sense to me I'm like how do you like how would you believe that because I feel like that would that would just be so disproven early on through any historic, whether it's Josephus, whoever. But I thought that was interesting. Like I said, you talked

to the Gnostics. They did not believe in the crucifixion of Jesus, but they also, a group of them thought that if the crucifixion was true, it wasn't Jesus that was actually crucified. It was Simon, but somehow Jesus just projected his face onto Simon, convincing the people that it was him being crucified, which I've never heard that. And there's no way you can read the gospel narratives and come to that conclusion. Because he said, over and over again, I will go there. I will be killed. Well, my point is, like, my point is,

the thing that's so crazy about Jesus being crucified is that if he wasn't who he said he was, nobody would go through with the torture of doing that if it was just a hoax. I'm like, no matter what you say, if you're being nailed to a cross and it's not legitimate, every other person in human history would be,

okay, look, I was not being serious about this. You know, so I'm like, it's not possible to fake that, which to me is the, to me, it just gives full proof of who Jesus was because how do you go through that and not, that's what I'm saying,

like not revile those who are doing that to you and not, you know, go back on your word. Like, how do you go through with the pain and the torture of that? If, like, to me, there's no denial that he is who he said he was because of how he took the crucifixion. Well, and it's also,

the culmination, Zach, you said ancient Christianity and even think about it, and ancient Judaism. I mean, all the way back to the garden, we know that the whole point was that the son of God became man, which then made him the son of man, because that was the two references to him, to then be the new Adam, is the way Paul describes in Romans five through eight. And so that's the whole idea. That's exactly why he came. That's exactly why he died. That's exactly why I was resurrected. So you're right. That has to be at the core of who we are as Christians, as who we follow. And sorry, last thing, I'm kind of rolling now. But he briefly mentioned this, and we were talking about Alex O'Connor last time, and he had said this too. But why do people, he briefly

mentioned this in the lecture. I can't remember who he was referring to, but how some people thought that, some people believe that the serpent in Genesis 1 was actually Jesus. I don't, I don't understand. Yeah, he was the good guy. Yeah, I don't understand that. Have you heard him talk about that? He talked about that the God that created the material world was actually evil because the material world is bad.

And so therefore, the real change agent, which was in the form of the serpent. Was Jesus. Yeah. It makes no sense to that. Yeah, exactly. And so therefore, the death, the fake death, you know. Mind I've done all of that type of thinking. Like when it talked about the group who said,

Jesus wasn't God because God wouldn't do that, any type of thinking like that, I think is like that is us projecting our own morality and philosophy on to God in Scripture. And I've heard this in my life before. People would say, God, Jesus didn't turn the water into wine in John 2 because Jesus wouldn't do that. Like the wine wasn't wine because Jesus.

because Jesus wouldn't, God is against drug in this. And I'm like, but he did. Like, you're... It would have been way more comfortably if he would have turned wine into water, right? Exactly. Yeah.

Like, even that type of thinking is you projecting your morality onto God whenever I think as Christians, what God's cause to do is... And I'm all about finding the truth in Scripture. Like, I think you can interpret something in the way and you find out, oh, that's not what that meant.

I'm totally pro that. I'm saying we should be doing that. But when we get to the point where, like, I think this is what it says, even if it disagrees with our immorality, we have to say, well, God did it. That's who he is. Which, by the way, that's the danger of any creed,

whether marked or unmarked. Because then when you start building the case like that, then you'll come up with, well, you know, drunkenness is bad. So therefore, no one can ever drink anything. Because that way you can never get drunk. So there you go. there's your new creed.

Unfortunately, that's not script. Yeah, it's dangerous. It is dangerous. I mean, to read the creed, to try to read the scripture through the lens of your creed, you probably want to construct your creed through the lens of scripture. There you go. And to the point, I mean, particularly with some of the confessions that we hold, you know, the church has held, they haven't really prevented the church from moving into liberalism or heresies

or things like that. I mean, you know, you can look at the, you know, maybe I shouldn't say this, I'll say it. I mean, you look at the Westminster Confession. I mean, I don't think that it preserved the Presbyterian Church from moving into liberalism. I mean, the PCUSA is very liberal. And, you know, and I know there's parts of that, the people that are in that that aren't. But, I mean, as a whole, the denomination is, and that's why you have PCA churches. Now, that's why you have, you know, EPC churches.

And so the creeds weren't enough to sustain or to preserve the church. And so to me, like, maybe this makes people uncomfortable, but the Holy Spirit preserves his church. I mean, I truly believe that he will preserve his church. And the way, because there's a lot of different spirits that are coming at us, right? So clearly the spirit preserves the church, because that's the whole point of what he's saying in first and second John, as that you test the spirits.

and the and the spirit is the one that will protect the church and how do you know if it's the spirit and not a spirit? And the way that you know that it's a, it's the spirit is that the teaching and the testimony and the word is Christ came in the flesh. That he had a body. And it's not just a verbal confirmation of that. It's the reality of that Christ came in a body.

And the reason why it matters is because when you read a verse like 1 Timothy 3.6 about our confession, 1st Timothy 36 says, great indeed, we confess is the mystery of godliness. He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the spirit, seen by the angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, and then taken up the glory. Same thing I said earlier. That's the confession. And so we just test it out and we see. And so when Paul kind of talks about this again in Colossians, he says that the mystery is that Christ is now in you. In what?

In me? What do you mean in me? He's in your body. Like literally, your body, 1st, Grythian 6 is a temple of the Holy Spirit. And so you start to see how all this plays out. So to actually be anti-Christ is to disassociate Christ with the body. I mean, that literally is the core of the whole thing. And so, I mean, I know this is a much broader scope and there's probably a lot more to it than I'm saying.

I don't mean to oversimplify it. But I do think that that's the, that's the whole thing. the core of it at least. And so the spirit's going to preserve his church. We are, you know, we just got to test the spirits to see which ones are Antichrist and which ones are pro-Christ or which one is pro-Christ. Well, and you have to realize that these things were established. I do appreciate the fact of him going into, obviously, into this lecture in second,

third century, and then we're going to, in the next lecture, talk about the persecutions that came about as a result of it. But I do love the idea that God put forth the system by which generationally we could still know this 2,000 years later. You do need church leadership. You do need bishops and all the different names that there are for church leaders. You do need mentors like Paul was to Timothy. And so all these things you see from the first century still need to be going on today. Because a lot of people now come along in the modern era and they just want to throw the baby out with the bathwater there.

So it's all bad, you know, because people hadn't always loved or this church believes that or this group does this. And so they want to just burn it all down. It's like, well, wait a minute. God put a system in place for a reason. Now, we have to find it and we have to be fair with it. But as long as we're, you know, preaching this and sticking with the Word of God, that's what it's all about. So be sure and sign up to take the course with us for free at Hillsdale. At Unashamed for Hillsdale.com.

And I'll end with this little funny story. Can I say something before you say that? Yeah. Just really quick, I was, because you were talking about what you told away from the lecture. And I was, the whole time I was thinking it's so interesting how these things that were happening 2,000 years ago, you're seeing it still today, whether it's narcissism. He was talking about the, the monotonists who taught that you should actively pursue martyrdom. And I was thinking about even now on social media, like, you see, because he was talking about how you shouldn't actively pursue martyrdom. persecution. Like, yes, it's going to happen and you welcome it when it does and you rejoice in it,

but that's not something you actively pursue. And I think sometimes we see people that actively pursue that from a stance of boldness. I'm going to be bold because I want to be persecuted because they'll post something that they know they'll get hate on because they'll get hate on it. Yeah. And it's like, to me, that's disingenuine. And it's like, but you're pursuing that because of this is what boldness looks like. But I thought, but it was just interesting to me. It was like, That was 2,000 years ago, because they all thought he was, Jesus was coming back. And like, you know, the 100 years, that's what they were talking about. But you still see that today.

It's like people actively pursuing that. Do you see the Gnosticism? You see people denying the deity of Christ. And yes, I just thought it was, I thought it was interesting learning that the things we're seeing today kind of resurfaced in a sense. It's things they were dealing with 2,000 years ago. That's a good point. And let's all. You sound us off, Al.

That's a great point, Christian. Yeah. Christian, we always love seeing you on fire. So you bring this to the next lecture. You don't bring it with you? All right. We'll see you next time on Unashamed for Hillsdale. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy powered by Hillsdale College.

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