Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1305 | The Problem With Calling Everything a Miracle

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

Jase, Al, and Zach highlight Granny Robertson’s timeless wisdom and the responsibility parents carry to model discipline, truth, and real love in their homes. The guys spark a conversation about what Jesus may have actually looked like, and challenge common misconceptions about heaven, death, and what it means to be alive in Christ right now. Jase looks deeper into how modern culture has watered down the meaning of “miracles,” contrasting everyday blessings with the truly supernatural events seen in Scripture.  In this episode: Romans 8, verses 19, 23, 25; Philippians 3, verse 20; Hebrews 9, verses 27–28; 1 John 3, verse 2; John 11, verses 3–44; 1 John 4, verses 10–21; 1 Corinthians 13, verses 1–13 “Unashamed” Episode 1305 is sponsored by: https://www.quo.com/unashamed — Try QUO for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months! https://www.covesmart.com/unashamed/ — Use code UNASHAMED at checkout for up to 70% off your first order! https://chministries.org/unashamed — See why Christians are ditching health insurance for good. Get a simpler alternative at half the cost! Download the FREE Upside App and use promo code Unashamed to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ — Sign up now for free, and join the Unashamed hosts every Friday for Unashamed Academy Powered by Hillsdale College Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters 00:00 The “Unbothered” Mindset 06:15 What Will Jesus Actually Look Like? 13:20 Lazarus, Death & Living Right Now 18:00 Phil’s Theory of “Soul Sleep” Afterlife 23:40 A New Mode of Being Alive 27:10 The Misappropriation of Miracles 32:19 Seeing the Other Dimension 38:20 Loving People You Don’t Like 44:08 What to Do When Faced with Perfection 52:35 Jase’s $100 Discipline Story — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. We're still recording from the last podcast the same day we do, too, as we've told you before. So we still got our guest here, Jonathan, Gloria. And I was mentioned to Jace during the break that Jonathan... Oh, and your name is Jonathan? Yeah. Well, that is Erie. It is Erie. It spelled the same way. So I looked at Jonathan, because yesterday we was in class, he had his hair. kind of pulled up kind of like you do jace when you put it under your hat and i didn't notice he had long hair i didn't notice you had yesterday you must have it in some yeah yeah pulled back so today he walks in looking like he did today he's got the beard he's got the kind of longish hair and the narrow face

with the long nose and he looks like our imagination of jesus kind of like your your guy on the chosen yeah jonathan roomie roomie and so i was like man he's got to now he's in christ so he's really got a Christ look about it. So, yeah, and you got married. And you got married. Well, it's not, I was going to say it's different from Jesus. And his kids are here today, so if you hear any kid noise in the background. I was going to say Jesus didn't get married, but he actually did.

He just married a large group of people. The bride of Christ. The bride of Christ. So, yeah, you do have that look, which led me to think about an interesting conversation because when we were, I think I was actually on the God. course. We had a week off, so I actually, I had a fun week. We did a Missy. I just saw Jay Stone for you, tell your story in the, in the break room, because I was trying to get me some decent coffee to work the machine. And he mentioned about golf, because Alex brought it up, and he said,

oh, I quit golf. Golf is for rich people and retired people. Yeah. That was Jay Stone's comment. So I just wanted you to know that just happened. So any comment to that? I'm not retired, but I guess I am rich. So maybe he's got a point. I mean, it's such a frivolous endeavor. But I do it for the conversation. Yeah, the camarader. And look, sometimes you have Jesus' conversations.

And sometimes you realize that, because we did the last podcast, I ended it with some of these news organizations are listening to our podcasts. And they took something out of context and said, Jay says rednecks are the only unoffendable people on the planet, which I'm proud of. Yeah. Because we realized a long time ago, we're not sensitive. We're not thin-skinned. Because the rest of the world seems to be.

Everybody's offended. But being offended is, why would you be offended by words? Yeah. You can call me anything. I don't care. So I did have the caveat. You're secure in who you know you are. That's why.

I did have the caveat, though, because some of the guys I was playing golf with, they were kind of pushing back, like, well, you know, we're not going to put up with anything. I was like, well, there's a difference in being offended. And I went, you know, Phil's old standard line of thinking, you know, you can say anything. But you start talking about our wife or our kids or our dogs. And we may give you, you know, a little butt-whop. A little butt-whippin out of love. just to teach you some manners.

Discipline is a part of life. I gave that caveat. It's not that we're offended. We just don't like rudeness in a person. So anyway, there was that. But this conversation came up on when Jesus comes back, we'll see him as he is. Because when he was raised,

we just had Eager Sunday. I keep stressing that, because I'm really proud of that. And you're going to preach on that. Because at the time of us recording this, we hadn't had eager, Sunday. But the time you listen to it, it will have already happened. And I got that from Romans 8. I even mentioned it in my community talk yesterday.

I was like, we're going to talk about the eager expectation of the resurrection. You know what's fascinating? Because then I panicked and thought, oh, let me make sure. What are the different translations of that word? because it's Romans 819, Romans 823, and 25 says that we eagerly await, and it's all in the context of the sons of God to be revealed. So it also says the creation eagerly awaits. I mean, we're talking about the earth for this to happen.

There's an eagerness. So I looked up the Greek word for that. I was going to practice to say it, but it literally is like 17 syllables. I'm embellishing. It's at least seven. So I'm not going to try to say it. But that word is used only eight times, and three of them is in Romans eight. But the other ones are really good.

Philippians 320. Look, we eagerly await. Our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a savor from there. Yeah. Off the top of my head, Hebrews 9 was one. Let me look that one up. Hebrews 9. Now I've gone down a rabbit hole about Happy Eager.

But it's just a way better word. Good. You're happy to get ready for my sermon. We're not worried about some pagan goddess, talking about spring and painting some eggs. Romans, no, what I say? Hebrews 9, 27, 28, just as man. His destiny, die once, and after that to face judgment.

So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people. And he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who, now, the NIV here says waiting for him. That's unfortunate. Eager for him. Eagerly, eagerly anticipating him. And so it led to a conversation on the golf course on what he looks like. And I said, there's a lot of people that go into trauma.

because he doesn't look like Jonathan Remy. Because, you know, people are going to look, then they're going to look at Jonathan. Yeah. And it's like, sorry, bud, you know. And our Jonathan looks like him too. Yeah. So we have no idea.

I mean, really. But I know one thing. I'm pretty sure that a lot of the depictions that I see of him looking very Scandinavian. with the light hair and the blue eyes, that I don't see a lot of Israelis that look like that. So I'm just saying, I don't think it's going to be like that. So, you know, there are depictions that we see, you know.

And he did enter a new mode of being. That's right. I'm going to keep saying that phrase because he, the heavenly being and the earthly being has combined into a super-beam. And that's what I hope to capture in the sermon Sunday. because we talk about a lot on here, but I've never really heard an Easter Sunday sermon about his post-res resurrected 40 days

and what that means for us. I mean, I've never really... Now we're talking now. I have been hollering about this. I mean, I have never heard it. For 30 years. And it took an epiphany from the Holy Spirit to say, why are we calling this after some pagan goddess?

What are we doing? Oh. So let's talk about the resurrection. Ow, it's in our text. We read over it, but it just, it lacked the power. The 1st John 3. Yeah. I mean.

Oh, yeah. That's what first gave me the idea, Jason, when he started on. Listen to this really. First John 3. Carefully. 3.2. Dear friends, now we are children of God. Look, we're waiting for the children of God.

Read Romans 8 again. Read it 100 times. the sons of God will be revealed when he comes back. There's a revealing, and it coincides with resurrected bodies. Not this mystic, I think the technical term of that belief in the day was the Hellenistic, this Greek, oh, your soul, there's a spirit that's locked up in a prison called the body, and it will be. be unleashed and you're going to be a gashous mist floating on clouds for eternity. That's not going to buy it.

Yeah, Gnosticism. Which is exactly what John has been fighting in this text the entire time. Yeah. That's the false. So when you really think about it, of course, then you have the Sadducees, because history matters. We talked about the last podcast. Sadducees, they didn't even believe those resurrection. These are the three main groups here.

You have the Hellenists who are like, oh, it's just a, it's all an inner you light fixture heat source that will be released and take off and absorbed into energy and whatever. That is just crazy to me. Which we talked about when Melissa was on, the new age stuff, a new thought, I think she comes. Then you have the Pharisees who did believe in a resurrection. However, it was all based on your performance. And you have the good and bad situation on.

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Lord, the one you love is sick. And he's like, well, this sickness will not end in death. No, it is for my God's glory. And so that God's son may be glorified through it. So eventually comes, Mary and Martha, they're mad because they're like, if you'd have been here, this wouldn't have happened. And in verse 22, says, but I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask. Jesus said, your brother will rise again.

Well, watch what Martha answered. I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Now, my opinion is that that probably came from the Pharisee view. Maybe. It's like, oh, yeah, well, I get it. He'll come back and then we'll see where he's at. But Jesus, this is such a profound statement. Jesus said to her, I am.

So she went future. He went present. Yep. I am the resurrection and the life. I mean, I wouldn't have a problem for inserting heaven right there. I am heaven. Yeah. I am resurrection.

I am life. Right. I think that's what he's saying. He's not, and I am, which means now and forever. Which means past, present, future, all in one person. Exactly. which then makes more sense of why he told the thief on the cross today you'll be with me in paradise i am yeah but we we've got this detachment syndrome about souls leaving and going which is

gnostic it's it's the hell and you know that to make your point about the thief what he's saying is he Jesus knew they were both going to die that day but he said but you'll be with me exactly and so which is where you want to be when your moment comes, right? Which is where he goes from here, because then he says, I am the resurrection life. Now, watch what he says. He who believes in me will live even though he dies. And whoever lives and believes in me will never die.

Okay. Record scratch. Say that again, slowly. Okay, he who believes in me will live. Now, he already said, I'm not talking about the last day. No, I am. So he who believes in me will live, will live. Did he mean will in the future, or was he talking about right now?

Yes. You're talking about right now. Yeah, I think the answer is yes. Yeah. Even though he dies. So Lazarus is dead. So then he says, and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Well, I thought I wasn't, I'm not going to die.

But if you die, I'm going to live. And he's talking about a man who just died. He just died. So what does he do? He then, what does he do? He then goes and says, which is an odd question, because his next statement is, well, where have you laid him? Seems like if he could raise him from the dead, he didn't know where he was. But I think he wanted to him.

It's like asking directions when you already know the way, right? I think he knew the answer. But it's a good question of Jesus, where have you laid him? Take away the stone. I'm just reading the red letters. Verse 40, did I not tell you that if you believe you would see the glory of God? Because they said, look, he's been there four days, bad odor. Yeah, don't open the grave.

So they took away the stone. Jesus looked up, and once again, did they have to take away the stone? No, but it was to let them see. He didn't need the stone removed. He could have just come through the stone. Which is, by the way, these are all pictures of what's going to happen with him. Exactly. So then they took it away.

Then Jesus looked up, said, Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me. But I said this for the benefit of those people standing here. That's why I knew. He's doing this for their benefit. All of it is. That they may believe that you've sent me. And then he said, Lazarus, come out.

The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen and a cloth around his face. He was a mummy. Take off the grave clothes. I mean, for crying out loud. Let him go. He literally came out as the mummy. As awesome as that is. And, you know, if you read tradition and biblical accounts, oh, this guy just goes on fire.

Yeah. You know, and is there many threatening situations the rest of his life because he's like, kill me. I've already been there. Been there. Can you imagine his testimony? Let me tell you what is like being dead and coming back. But you're right now that we've studied John and into First John. If we could go back and study that chapter again, I would see many more implications of the current life than we did back when we were studied.

See what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, because it's there. That's what happened to him. I went back and it's just like, you know what? It made me have more passion for even like baptism because you have an end-time death and resurrection. It made me think about sleep. You know, we just think about human being.

We take this for granted. But a third of your life is spent dying, literally dying, Because what happens when you sleep? You go to sleep. You don't even know where you're at. You don't know who you are. You've detached yourself from you. Yeah.

And you're thinking crazy things, you know. Crazy dreams. And all of a sudden you wake up. And you're like, Lazar, you bumble out, you know. And you're like, where's my keys? Or if you're like me and you're in a hotel room somewhere, you're like, where am I? What hotel am I? Yeah.

I was like, my wife this morning, I was like, where's my belt? She's like, we might have put some pants on first. I was like, yeah. I'm looking for, I woke up looking for my belt. You're like, what happened? I was dead for seven hours. And I come out. But it's just made me realize I think that's why God designed all this this way,

is to help you wrap your head around a life where death is not a problem. This is just a temporary setback. A third of your life has spent. pretty much living this out. Right. You go in a coffin, we call it a bed, you're dead. Because there's a, when you look deep into this, what do they call the highest form of sleep where you're not even dreaming?

There's just nothing happening. I guess REM sleep, will that be what that is, R.M. And we just take it for granted that you just get up and start walking around like a zombie. He was believed in what they call soul sleep, which is not a biblical term, but he compared that to the fall in the sleep references in the epistles, that you would just, when you die, it's just like that kind of sleep until it's time to come back and then you wake up in that new body. I do think as it relates to time that's accurate.

That's what he always used to teach. Well, because death and sleep, you don't know what time it is. Right, none. What's the first thing you do when you wake up? Look at the clock. Look, I go see what time. Oh, no, I'm late. Well, you know, then.

Or, oh, no, it's only been two hours. Did you really care 30 minutes ago? You were not even here. You're just gone. Yeah. So, I don't know, that was not planned. I just went off on that. But it made me realize that in 1st John 3, where it says,

when he appears. And what's interesting about this is he doesn't use, the coming language when he appears. Because I think some cases where it says he comes back, but other cases it says he just appears. You're like, well, which is it? Yes. But I think it says appear because there's too many verses.

It says the Lord is near. Well, people always put that in a time reference, but I don't think that's true. I think it means more... proximity. Yeah, there's a dimension that we can't see because all over the Bible, you have these moments where in moments of stress or high anxiety, people see the other dimension.

Think Stephen when he was stone. He looks up and he sees Jesus at the right hand of God. Well, you're like, what was his vision like if he was far away? Well, he wasn't far. There's just a curtain. Well, NT Wright calls it a curtain. You know, to the dimension. Remember when the guy in Kings, they were surrounded.

Second King, Six. Yeah. And the prophet's like, oh, no. You know, Lord opened his eyes. Show him what's really out there. And all of a sudden he looks around and he's like, oh, they're outnumbered. These spiritual beings. It happens all over the place.

John, remember when he was asleep and he sees this vision. There's fire. Some, Ezekiel, chapter one, same thing. All these moments. Even the transfiguration, remember, was a pulling back of the veil, because that all of a sudden you said... Transfiguration. And isn't it interesting that the three guys standing on that mountain all had suspicious deaths? So a few months ago, Jill and I got a notification on our phone that's almost trying to break into our car at 1230 in the morning.

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70% off. And if you get a survey, please let them know that you heard about Cove right from this podcast. That's C-O-V-E-Smart.com slash Unashamed and Use Code Unashamed at checkout. So you get Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. Well, Elijah didn't I? It just says a whirlwind took him up. Moses says God buried him. What does that mean?

So then in other passages, there was a dispute between the evil one, Satan, and Michael, the archangel, over where the body of Moses was. You're like, why does the devil, why is he concerned about where that body is? Because that's his mode. That was his card, his Trump. He'll kill you. He's a murder from the beginning. He reigns in death, and Jesus reigns in life. So there's a big dispute.

You won't know where that body is. I need to get my celestial eyes on that. A little point of caveat about that, Jay's, the devil. What he was basically saying, and I'm reading between the lines in the Jew passage, is that it's not fair. And who is the author of It's Not Fair? Because if you think about it, anytime you look at and covet from other people,

you're jealous, you're envious, you were playing into the devil's role of this not fair and that's what he was doing about the body of moses that's not fair he doesn't get to escape the wrath of death but you know god's like oh he gets to do whatever i say he gets to do yeah because that's what happens when you're alone and immortal and Satan you're not yeah exactly so we said all that to describe the new mode of being i'm glad you're going to preach on that oh i am i'm excited about it because i've never like i said i've never we thought about that on Easter because we make such a big deal. And look, it is so important that Jesus walked out of the tomb.

And it's so great. But what it really means for us in a more practical way, because we do have some little glimpses. And we really won't know, according to John here in First John 3, exactly what we're going to be like. But we get some glimpses. We get 40 days worth of glimpses. I think you should wrap your head around it now.

Once you surrender to Jesus and you have a little bit of, in life, death, and resurrection, you receive God's Spirit. That's an experience that you're experiencing. It's a glimpse. And all you're waiting on is this renovated body. But it's such a motivational mind change, because you mentioned about Lazarus and what he probably looked like going forward based on traditional stuff, and we don't know all of it,

but that's the way I would be. I'd feel like I was in pencil. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've been there and I've come back. So no matter what, and he died again. Oh, I think they killed him. I mean, that's what the tradition say. They said, okay, well, let's do this again.

And that's where it always goes. People like, if you're chasing miracles out there, you know, which I think is one of the most misused words on the planet, the word miracle. Because people are calling miracles things that are just God working and God being, you know, miracles were something that even an atheist would say, okay, you know, like something that's not possible based on our laws of nature. Like dead people coming back? You mean like that?

Yeah, like that. Like my dad walked in right now, I'd say, no, that's a miracle. That's a miracle. Yeah. But it's like, oh, you know, I was praying for a home run and the guy hit one. Huh. You know what I mean? It's like, boy, miracles happen.

Well, like we said, we hunted Oatting Day this last year, and you shot a band at Duck the first shot, and we all said, oh, man, look at there. This is like we're honoring Dad today. We got a band. Well, none of us thought that the band miraculously appeared on the duck because... Exactly. I mean, in other words, we were glad, but it was not like,

we were putting it into the proper perspective. Well, I made that point because, look, I'm an LSU baseball fan. We, you know, we've documented that. But I was listening to the post-game interview after the game yesterday. And they won. I mean, they were down, what? Seven to nothing. And come back and won, 17, 10.

But anyway, they're interviewing the players. Look, they're young bucks. I don't want to throw them under the bus. But Derek Currie. Somebody say that was a miracle? Well, he was like, I was praying at the end. Because I know he's a believer because his walk-up songs, the worship song. Yeah.

Don't, hey, I noticed stuff like this. And he's like, you know what's funny is when Dar-Dar, the second baseman, hit the home run. I was mid-prayer. he hits the home run. He's like, miracles happen every day. And I was like, ooh. But I was like, these guys are young.

Because it's so weird for me being a follower of Jesus. I love that they're giving glory to Jesus. We're passing on grace even to bad theology. And so I'm throwing Curia onto the bus a little bit. I'm glad he believes in Jesus, but I'm like, you need some maturity in how to use proper words, you know. And then Dar-Daj, same thing, because when you're not going to be able to be. When he did his interview, he said, he says it's at the end of the interview. I want to give glory to my Lord and Savior Jesus.

Well, 30 minutes before, he got the magic moment, which was, because he hit a, he had a three-run homer, then had the greatest bat flip ever. He flipped that bat 100 feet in the air. You got warned for it. Which calls both coaches to use four little words, not five letter words, toward each other, the pitching coach for Kentucky wanted to whip our coach. Yeah, it's all this going on. And so, but he gets the magic moment for three-run homer.

Of course, and then he drops two F-bombs in his acceptance speech. And I thought, okay, I'm loving that you're giving glory to the Lord. But, you know, let's try to steer that back. Yeah, yeah, let's try to. So I'm being picky, but I'm just saying, I'm like, since when are these words not deemed wrong, you know, as a follower of Jesus? I'm pretty sure that's, I just wouldn't do. Well, here's what I love about the thing you laid out about, understand the resurrected life and how it begins now. It doesn't really matter about timing.

Lazarus had whatever, how many years he got after that. Then he was killed, but he was killed feeling invincible. But the thief on the cross, he only had a few more hours to live. I mean, he wasn't getting off that cross alive. Yeah. And yet, think about the peace he must have felt when Jesus looked at him in the eyes and said, oh, don't worry, son, you're with me now. Yeah.

I mean, he only had a few hours left, but that must have been the most peaceful hours. I mean, the other guy that was demeaning Jesus, that was the most miserable last people. Oh, yeah. And I think there's more to the story there, because how did the thief really know? He's like, this guy hadn't done anything wrong. Yeah, somehow he must have, he must have been following around on some crowds. Maybe he got some of that fish, I don't know. Yeah, and so I do think there was more to that story.

But still, it's incredible. It just shows you how outward viewing Jesus was, even in his own pain and what he's going through, he's like, this guy here. Right. He gets... He's like handled himself. I mean, can you imagine? Like, the way Christ must have handled himself on the cross would have been truly divine.

Even the soldier at the end, you know, truly this was the son of God. So he was certainly... And what would he have had, Zach, to frame that statement on? Only what he had seen that day. Well, it shows you just how important, even I just read that John Levin, on your view of Jesus, how that is the central part of what your life can be, good or bad. Right. Because all that thief did was acknowledge, you know what, I think you're it.

You're the son of God. You're the... And I think that it goes for... Promised Messiah. For any of us, right? Let me read this next few verses back in... Because that really picks up, perfect where we left off last time was chapter 4, verse 10 of 1 John. he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

We just described that on the cross. Let me read this other section so we can talk about it at the next few podcasts. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. Now, this theme, how many times has he said that? I mean, I didn't count them up, but he keeps going back to if you love God, then you have to love one another. No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in us. and his love is made complete in us. We've talked quite a bit about that phrase

because that's love and joy. 13. We know that we live in him and he and us because he has given us of his spirit. And we have seen and testify, that's the theme that's going to come up big time in the next chapter, this idea of testimony. We have seen and testify

that the father has sent his son to be the savior of the world. And that's interesting because that means everybody. the opportunity's there, right? You would think, if anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the son of God, God lives in Him and He and Them. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. And here's the little money statement right in the middle here.

God is love. And we could probably do several podcasts on that one statement. He is love. I mean, the representation of it, the beginning of it, the end of it, all of it. whoever lives in love lives in God and God and Him. In this way love is made complete among us so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment because in this world we are like Him. So love should bring us confidence.

There's no fear in love, so now we're unafraid, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. And I think that's a reference to Christ. we love because he first loved us. If anyone says I love God yet hates his brother, here you go again, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. So I'll be honest with you for a while.

Just assume that health insurance is one of those things you just don't question. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that really doesn't align with how I want to leave my family. And also, it was incredibly expensive as well. And that's when my family and I started looking into Christian health care ministries. CHM is a Christian alternative to health insurance. It comes into about half the cost of the traditional marketplace plans. But what really mattered to me was that this is a nonprofit ministry, so I'm not paying into some company's profit margin.

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Being a part of this community really has changed my perspective on health care. So why limit yourself for no reason? Make the switch before getting locked into another insurance plan. Start today by visiting ph.mistries.org slash unashamed. And use our promo code, Unashame, for a 50% credit toward your first month that's c h ministries.org slash unashamed use promo code unashamed. So many times do we hear that from granny? I think she took that out of context because she would only say it as the physical

when we were fighting. My mom said that to me a million times so she must have got it from granny. She did. I heard that quite a word. It was always when you were fighting with Melissa and every single time. How can you love God whom you haven't seen if you can't love your brother whom you have seen? I got it so many times.

and he has given us this command whoever loves God must also love his brother and in their defense that would begin in family and she was trying to tell us something that we would all agree later in life now that we're all older

that our love for one another is powerful wouldn't you say that? Well let's do the technical thing for Al this is not confusing that the word for complete should be perfect these translations make this so difficult to follow.

What are they doing? Right, they missed it. So look, so verse 12, you have that word complete. All right. Well, in verse 17, you have the same word. Oh, it's complete here, too. But it's the same word for perfect is what I was getting at. Or a version of it.

In this way, love is made complete or perfect among us. Then you have verse 18. There's no fear in love. Oh, here's why I said it's confusing. But perfect love. It's the same word. Right. Complete.

They're like, oh, but it's a different context. Really? So same word used. Remember when he told the rich young ruler, he looked at him and it says he loved him. Yeah. And then he said, if you want to be perfect. Perfect.

Go sell everything you have. Well, now that makes sense. Because wherever you see the word perfect or complete, loves right there. Yeah. It's always right there. Right. So love is the way to perfection.

Think of the sermon on the mouth. He gets to the end of it, and he says, be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. Right. When I read that as a new Christian, I thought, well, I'm out. That's right. And no one was there to clarify it. Right.

Because I didn't understand that, oh, he's talking about love. God is love. So, well, can you love people? read 1st Corinthians 13 and thought well I'm not sure and then I realized oh he's given us his spirit and the fruit of the spirit is love oh he's giving me that spirit that I'm and it's a struggle but there I now have a power source where I'm capable of being unselfish and loving another human being right I think that's the structure of which he's discussing well I've got I guess everybody probably has this in their life.

They have this. I call them my nemesis. Like there's certain people that I've... I thought I was your nemesis. No, not really. No, you're kind of a nemesis on camera. It's kind of a bit that we do, but no, in all reality, we're actually very close, and I trust you.

But I do have people in my life that I'm like, eh, I don't know. And people... Jay's like the Philip McMillan on Duck Dynasty. He's a nemesis. for camera purposes only, because he's one of our best friends. Well, look, since you ripped that band-aid off, I'm so simple-minded that sometimes when you talk, I have no idea what you're saying.

So I become your nemesis because I'm thinking, there's probably not 13 people on the planet and realize that. But, look, maybe they're more smarter. You'd be surprised. The audience is way more sophisticated. I do. I know. Well, it's like the last podcast, you talked for 10 minutes after our little Atonement thing,

and I thought, is he disagreeing with me or agreeing with me? I wasn't sure. He was agreeing. So after it was over, I was like, so did you disagree or agree? And he's like, oh, no, I agreed. I was just adding a caveat. No, nuance. He was added out.

So then I had to go look up what nuance was. Well. All right. So make your point, Zach. Do you remember your point? Yeah. My point was that. you like okay if you go through an environment where a brother or sister hurts you in a deep way

you may read a verse like this and be like man yeah i don't want the best for them i i i'm in fact i may even hate them you know i mean like you may feel that um and i think that that's like a natural part of just being human like we have people that hurt us and we hurt people and then there's that thing in you that's like man i don't love them and i think what this passage is so committing on is because it's basically saying, well, you have to love them. And there was an instance in one of our house churches where a lot of people had been hurt by this particular pastor. And my dad was in there.

And I wasn't there for this evening, but they were just like raking this guy over the coals for how he had hurt the church and all this. You know, I've been really church hurt. And my dad and his wisdom, you know, he has a little bit of wisdom on him. And he was like, hey, I think what we're going to do for a minute here. We're just going to stop. and we're going to go around the room and every one of y'all, you're going to pray for him. And, you know, that's that moment where you, like the Holy Spirit,

if you have the Holy Spirit who said, yep, that's what we're going to do, you're like, ah, but I don't want to. You know, you don't want to do that. But they submitted to the Spirit in that moment, and they went around, they prayed for this individual in that group, and it was like a total change in the atmosphere. And I think it's one of those things, like when the Spirit's in you, like he does enable us to even love our enemies.

He really does. I'm not saying it's like a one-time prayer you pray. And you're like, oh, I'm totally good. No, I mean, I still have the people that I don't trust them. I wouldn't want them in my life and all those things. But I do love them. I do love my enemies. And I think that the Holy Spirit, I know he has.

He has been the one that's enabled that in me. And so then the posture of us is we just come in and we submit to the Spirit that's in us. That's the whole thing. We know that he loves us and that we know he abides in us if the Spirit lives in us. So when you hear that whisper from the Holy Spirit who's convicting you to like submit, the more that you submit to him, then the more that you actually get to experience the love of God, because the spirit becomes real in your life.

And then as a result of that, you get this production of fruit. And one of the main things, one of the main fruits that the Spirit produces is love. And so that gets produced in you. And so we're not conjuring up these things on our own. these are actually the way we love our brother and our sister is by living in unity with the spirit that's in us. And that's the whole point of what he's getting to in John 1st, John 5, when he gets talking about these commandments.

I mean, the way he frames it up is he says they're not a burden. They're not a burden. These are these are pathways into life. These are pathways into the abundant life. These are pathways into the very thing that you want, not burdens. So you can kind of see this argument is coming to that crescendo in the very next chapter. No, that's so good. And it made me think about this, Jay, because I want to get back here anyway.

I want to read the old thing. But I want to start because you made the point about the translations about this idea of completion. In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul's going to make a similar point to... Oh, we'll read the verse where it says the perfect. Yeah, that's what I was going to do. So I want to start at the end, then we'll go back and read the early part. Because remember, the context here in 1 Corinthians in the letter is that you got the these people who are abusing one another over the gifts that they have in the first century

church. I mean, I got this gift. The miraculous gifts. Yeah. The apostles had laid their hands on them. They were able to do all these gifts, and they forgot about three things, faith, hope, and love. Yeah, the most important three. So this word comes up here again.

This is what I had one of my reference points, Jay's. But where there are prophecies, because that's what they're arguing about, who can prophesy, who can speak in tongues, who's the smartest. Where there are prophecies, they'll cease. Where there's tongues, they'll be stilled. Where there's knowledge, it will pass away. These are all the things they're fighting about.

And they're having these terrible love feasts together fighting. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when perfection comes, that's the word again, completion. Same word used in 1, John 4. The imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. See, this is the great. growth process. This is what he's trying to say. When you grow to love, you're going to be something.

When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. So what did he just do? He did a passive-aggressive way of saying, you're acting like children. It's time to grow up. And then he says, now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror. Then we shall see him face to face. Now I know in part. Then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. What does that mean? You're not seeing what Christ is created in you, because then he says, and now these three remain, faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love. So the next time you get an argument with your wife, or if you're a woman with your husband, and they say,

so you think you're perfect? You're like, well, God does because he loved me. And I love you. So therefore, if I've wronged you, I apologize. See, now it makes sense. Because I always thought, oh, I can't be proud. I've screwed that up. So I messed up.

Right. I mean, nobody's perfect. Really? Yeah. Well, God's, oh, you can be perfect. Because perfection is housed in love. That's right. That's how he makes people perfect because he is perfect.

And he gives you that love. That's why he said love comes from God. Yeah. So it's a gift. But you said it, Zach, it's a fruit. And so what does fruit do? It grows. It grows to the point of then there's a fragrance associated with it.

There's a taste associated with it. that it's something that's good that helps other people that provides it. As you grow in love, those things should be more and more seen. Have you guys seen the gas prices lately, Al? You know, you think about gas or grocery or eating out. That's what Lisa and I do. That's our life in terms of being on the road. Hey, look, I'm talking about almost six bucks a gallon for diesel.

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That's 25 cents back for every gallon on your first take of gas using promo code unashamed. Well, you get outside, I mean, this is a big thing we keep talking about, but once you divorce the Christian life from the garden, it doesn't even make sense anymore. It turns into some legalistic, some kind of workspace, some kind of earn it, some kind of prove it, so whatever. Rules, like, rules, orientation, but if you can keep the gospel connected to the garden, you cannot, you cannot let that happen. And you mean like with a family. It's a fact, trust me, you're together, you have a relationship, everything's fine. But when they didn't trust God, what happened?

Lies, blame, shame, all these things. So I think you're right. I think that's why I always, the reason he's saying God is love and love came from God, you've been included in that now. And then you should love one another. He's not saying like, as an idea. Yeah. I used to read it like that.

Yeah. Oh, well, I guess I should look. No. And we'll just use it. When you have kids, that's it. Yeah. You have to be a lover. That's right.

And it's going to be sacrifice involved. Right. So I taught junior high for 11 years. What I realized is, because I had a rule. I have one rule. If you're distracting other kids, then I sent you out. And then, of course, it's not like a school. It's at the church building.

and people are bringing their kids up there. And I'm like, you have to go get your guardian or one of your parents, and they have to ask me to allow you back in there. Well, the reason I'm doing that is because I'm thinking, well, if I was a parent and a teacher who's not getting paid one dime for doing this has sent my kid out for being disruptive, they're going to have a conversation. and that's probably not going to go well for the kid.

And if they don't have that conversation, then we need to have a conversation with the parent about that child. Either way. That's where I'm going with this. Then I realized when I had the conversation with the parent, what the problem is. Because the parents usually were like, you know what I can do about it?

What are you going to do about? I'm like, what are you talking about? I think you're the one that has to do something. And I would, I'm just being honest and transparent. I wound up reading 1st Corinthians 13. I'm like, look, you don't have a choice. When you had this kid, you have to sacrifice. And you have to take time out and say, oh, no, we got a problem.

Well, that takes love, unselfishness, to have a conversation because there is a problem. But I wound up here because they're like, what do you mean? What do you do about it? I'm like, you're the parent. You're the love. giver. And so it's a misdefinition of love because I would start reading. Love does not envy. It does not boast. It's not proud. It is not rude. It's not self-seeking. And I would usually stop and say, all of these qualities, your kid is doing. So we have a love problem somewhere. I

don't know if that's going from God to you to them, somewhere the cycle. Yeah, we're not seeing exactly what this is. Because it's, we should love God and love one another. This person is not loving anybody. Right. And they're selfish. They're like, well, well, not my problem. Fix it.

I'm like, no, that's not going to work. But when I get down to this where it says it's not easily angered, keeps no record of wrongs, it does not delight in evil. Because usually the more you got into these situations, there was some evil going on in their life in the kid's life because you could just tell this, this person is not conformity. to social gatherings. Especially in the name of Christ.

They're being disruptive, mad, angry, whatever. It always protects, always trust, always hopes, always perseveres. But what I found so disheartening is a lot of these parents would just talk about themselves the whole time. Like, this is not about you, you brought another human onto this planet. and we're trying to figure out what's wrong with them because they're being disrupt. What do I got to do to get you to see? We have a problem here that needs to be addressed.

How can I help you? And then they start talking about their life, you know, where it all went wrong or whatever. It's like that's irrelevant right now. You know what I mean? And part of the new birth has to be a new pathway. Imagine how when Paul's laying this out to this church, these are believers. These are people who have obeyed Christ, who are now new in Christ, and they're having these petty arguments and fights

and treating one another terribly. They're getting drunk when they get together. Remember, when he mentions how they got together for communion, and they're not waiting on each other, and they're just exhibiting terrible behavior. And he's like, what is wrong with you guys? I mean, he's like a parent here. He's like, and then he lays out this passage.

He said, look what God has done for you. Look at what he's given you. And it's a chastisement. But it's the same one you were talking about that we would do in a 21st century setting. Exactly. Well, you read this and you're like, you need to get these qualities. You need to give these qualities to your kid and expect them to do the same. They're just looking like, well, I can't do that.

Right. I'm busy or whatever. And then you get into the real problems. Or it's, you know, abuse. or whatever. But it's like, I'm just so shocked at how when you challenge parents in that setting, they're just like, well, it's not my responsibility.

I'm like, well, who's it? Well, you're the Bible teacher. I did this for 11 years, and there was always a kid or two where this happened. So, and, you know, it caused a lot of controversy and edgy behavior. And I've shared this story before, but I had two boys that just would not pay attention. Just, I mean, they come in there disrupted the whole thing.

And so sent them out. The parent came, said, this kind of logic. And she basically said, I got nothing. That's why I'm bringing them to you. Fix them, you know. So I thought, okay. because she just was not open to doing the necessarily things that I you know 1st Corinthians 13 says so I was like what if they're going to be here so I told them I said look

here's what I'll do I pulled a hundred dollar bill back then I didn't have a lot of money I'm surprised you even had a hundred dollars I got one and I said if y'all will sit there and not be disruptive and pay attention I'm going to give you this hundred Guess what? 45 minutes, they did not make a peep, not a peep, attentive, listened. So after it was over, they said, where's the hunter? I said, I'm not giving you that. Now look, you said, why?

I said, because you told me a lie. You said that you were incapable of doing it. So then when I say the mom, I thought she's going to. to thank me. She's like, I want to $100. My kids tell me what happened. I was like, you don't understand. They said that they couldn't pay attention because they had ADHD. ADHD. I proved all that wrong in one setting. I was like, their problem was the motivation. Forget Riddle and Jay said a Honda will take care of that. Yeah. $100 to a junior high. Did you give them the Honda? No. I said, I'm not giving you

Because they're like, well, you aren't being honest. I said, well, neither were you. All I did. True. I cannot wait. Zach, you've got to read the comments on this story because they're going to be all over the map. I was trying to get the mind to see that you're in a delusion that you're like, well, there's nothing I can know about it. Sure, there is.

Yeah. But I know there. It's their motivation. No, it's a lot. I got it. This is all a lie. You are capable of doing it. You just need to have the right motivation.

That's on you. That's right. It's called discipline. Yeah. And so anyway, that went, you know, next thing I know the elders are saying. I know this is going to turn into a bad story. All right. We're going to end it on that and pick it up next time on Unashamed.

Well, love is tough. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast. Don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.