Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1309 | Willie Robertson’s Pyromania Sparks a Family Divide & Rome’s Fall Started With Jesus

Episode Date: April 10, 2026

Willie Robertson’s lifelong love of burning things is back on full display, and it all traces back to Phil’s unique outlook on work and life. Al, Zach, Christian, and John Luke shift to the rise and fall of the Roman Empire and why Jesus entered history at just the right moment to challenge its power. The guys reframe Jesus’ statement about the “gates of hell,” showing how God’s kingdom advances rather than retreats, even in the face of intense persecution. Zach makes a confession that illustrates the envious side of human nature. In this episode: Matthew 16, verses 13–20; Matthew 11, verses 7–15; Hebrews 11, verses 13–16; James 3, verse 16 Today’s conversation is about Lesson 6 of Ancient Christianity taught by visiting Hillsdale Professor of History Kenneth Calvert. Take the course with us at no cost to you! Sign up at http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/. More about Ancient Christianity: Christ entered the world during the reign of Caesar Augustus. The tensions between Christianity and the Roman Empire shaped the daily practice of the Christian faith and led many Romans to distrust and persecute the early Christians. But Christianity also benefitted from the Roman world. And when Rome collapsed in the West, Christianity provided the hope for preserving civilization. In this free, eleven-lecture course, Professor Kenneth Calvert will explore: How the Jewish, Greek, and Roman cultures all contributed to preparing the world to hear the Gospel. Why many Romans distrusted and persecuted the early Christians. The inspiring stories of Christ, His apostles, and faithful ones throughout the first four centuries of Christianity. The arguments of key early Christian apologists—Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin, Athanasius, and more—who defended and defined the Christian faith amidst the animosity of the Roman world. The conversion of Constantine and how he brought stability to Rome, and how the rivalry between his sons almost returned Rome to paganism. How Augustine’s writings helped preserve the message of Christianity during the collapse of the Roman Empire in the West. You will discover the uncertainties, trials, and triumphs of the earliest Christians as they confronted controversies within the faith and persecutions from outside it. Join us today to discover the improbable and miraculous story of Christianity. Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters 00:00 Willie’s Pyromania Revealed 04:45 Man vs. Yard: The Family Divide 08:40 The Satisfaction of Hard Work 12:15 Jesus Enters History at the Perfect Moment 22:15 Why Rome Feared & Persecuted Christians 27:50 Persecution Fueled Christianity’s Growth 38:48 Rome’s Decline & What It Says About Us Today 43:20 The Problem We All Struggle With — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. Sorry, we got the in between the podcast. You know, we have interesting discussions. If we air those, that's the end of it. This is the end of it. This is our Friday episode, Unashamed for Hillsdale. You can take the course for free with us. We're doing ancient Christianity right now. All you got to do is go to Unashamed for Hillsdale. Del.com, then we're going to pick one listener to come down to West Minerary, Louisiana, and watch a live recording of Unashamed, and we're going to actually pay for travel and lodging for you and a guest up to $1,000 each.

All you have to do is take the ancient Christianity course with us. You've got to finish all the quizzes and send us your certificate of completion. And you can do that by just uploading the certificate at watchunashamed.com. That's watchunashamed.com. And you'll be entered into the drawing. So we'll pick a winner in June. So definitely want you guys to finish this course with us. I've actually got to, when I leave here, guys, I got to leave.

I'm landscaping my house right now. So I've got a ton of people over there working, and I've got to go tell them exactly where to put the plant. So if I cut out early, I apologize, but I may have to do that. So you're just the foreman of the operation, right? I'm the foreman. Which you have to leave early to tell people. where to go

that goes there this goes here yeah I'm retired from the from the you know having too much skin in the game

on the yard work so well did you retire from the yard work game well he did it he did it because he was so poor

at it was the problem because he was we talked about this on the regular and ashamed podcast Jill says

you're doing such a terrible job you now have to hire it done and so he was forced there he didn't want to do it on his own

The last time I hired a yard boy was your father and your father-in-law. Willie was my yard boy. It's circa 2000, I don't know, maybe 11, 12. When did Duck Dynasty come out? Yeah, right along in there. In 12, yeah. It was right before he took over Duck Commander. Yeah.

Zach was big-time and had a big pharmaceutical job and, you know, company car. He's living over on the big golf course that we played at. He was big-time in Willie, who still managed. in camp in those days and early days of him taking do a duck commander with Corey and so he tells the story hilariously about Zach coming out with this little Dave Ramsey envelope with this cash set aside you know because he was doing Ramsey and we actually talked about this with Ramsey on the podcast which was hilarious and so and then he's big time and Zach he's well you know you do you and I'll do me we'll see

where we wind up yeah and then you know Willie's guys little yeah Zach's one of our best employees now. He does the same thing to two probably. Well, that is, well, that's who, because my dad is, he doesn't hire out for, well, he does hire out for yard work, but he does it himself and likes to do it. So that's, that, we were talking about this earlier, because I've noticed behind Christian's house, there's been a constant fire for days now. It's, it's been like the burning bush with Moses.

It's just been like this continual. I was expecting to maybe to see you out there with that. sandals on just well it'll be it'll be a fire and it'll rain all night and I'll wake up and the fire is still

going in the morning so I don't know what he does to cultivate it but it's it's he's been let me taste he's been doing it for 50 years

well the funniest part was when so when the we're kind of referring back to the ice storm when it first hit he would you pull down our driveway

and he would have these many burn piles it'd be like a like a foot circumference and there'd be one here one further down It would be, you would drive down and there'd be 10 pillars of smoke, like little, like little clumps of sticks that are just burning scattered throughout the whole yard. Yeah.

It was pretty. In another life, he could have been a, what are they calling the pyromaniacs? Yeah, where he could have just like burn stuff down. But he was little, he was like super young and when he would get into this. And of course, mom loved it and encouraged it because dad would never do yard work. He saw, my dad saw it as some sort of a test of your masculinity to not do yard work. Like it's like, oh yeah, the frost. But and not only not do it, not pay for it either.

No. It was just, you don't touch your yard. You just let the almighty deal with that, that was his point. You know, so with that, but it looks, I mean, there's snakes. It's dangerous. That's what my dad says. It's like a thing for him now to have the perfect yard and to work on the yard. because he was always so mad at Phil for never working in his yard.

He says his whole life he was like, you've got to get it work in that yard. Which was always kind of funny because Willie and Dad had, they were so much alike in terms of their sort of entrepreneurial spirit. And it's no accident to me that that's what he goes out and speaks about when he does, you know, kind of the combination of faith and business. And that's the way Dad was too. I mean, they just had a, they have a unique vision. But they also, because they had that, they shared that, they also clashed the most, which was interesting. Out of all the brothers, of course, you know, I mean, Jeff and I went through some prodigal clashing. But other than that, we didn't clash near as much, but Willie and Dad always did.

And that's why Willie says now it meant so much to him when he took over Duck Commander that dad allowed him to actually do it. Because he thought that might go on, but it didn't. But, yeah, I think that's why he always loved working the yard. Our mom would encourage it. Yeah. And it was just funny back in the day when he was just a boy, he had to live out there with it. Like he would go like camp out to clean the yard. I mean, like he would get a tent or set his little bed up in the cook shack or whatever.

He said he would have huge burn piles of like six years old. Oh, yeah, he did. And he never burned everything that you had thought, you know, a six-year-old kid, but he learned it well. He managed it pretty good. You were self-taught. He was. And he still do it. He was out there about eight hours the other day.

I know. And it was funny because your mom was on the other day. And she kind of got a little tearful even. She said, you know, I was just so proud of him because he's taking care of our kids and grandkids because we all live on the compound there. And I was thinking that my mind. That's true. But really, he just does it because he loves it.

No. Well, after the ice storm, we were talking about, like, how we're going to clean us up. And there's another guy with us. And he said, we can hire someone. He can get this big scoop, a machine to come in and clear all this out. and he said, my dad said, the goal is not to do this fast. He was like, I don't want to clean it up. I want, I want these sticks to be here until I clean them up in six months.

It could be a year. Yeah, but he did say I got the Phil's mindset and yard work because he judges me so hard when he comes over to my yard, which I like a clean yard, and I think I'm good at projects. I'm like, I'll clean it up, but I do have hoarding tendencies. And so just the amount of stuff takes a lot of cool. You'd just soon read a good book than be out there burning piles. I would definitely be reading a book. Well, the thing, too, about Willie, though, it's like you'll see him out there working

and you'll have this inclination or thought, he'd be like, I think I should maybe go help him. But he definitely does not want you to help him. So sometimes I'll feel like, maybe he'll think, maybe he thinks I'm being lazy by not coming out there and helping him. then I'd be like, no, he actually would not want me out here with him. He may still call you lazy just because he wants to just call you a name. But you're right. He would not appreciate the help. When you go to try to help him, he just moves to another spot.

Yeah, yeah. He just keeps his headphones on. Yeah. What are you going to say is that? I don't know what I was going to say. Something about sometimes it's easier to, I'm like that with my kids. I'm like, nah, let's get out of the way. Because you got your own way you want to do it.

You know what I like to burn stuff too, though. But I live in town now, so it's harder for me to. make big burn piles. But man, that is, there's something therapeutic about just burning.

I think it's too if you're in a business where you don't get closure in your life a lot, long cycle, you know, it's nice to do that kind of work where you cut up a tree,

you burn it, it's gone. You know, there's something, something about that where you get closure. So I get where he's at. And I do.

I do like that too from time to time to have something and to get out there and to sweat, doing it and work. And you finish it. and you walk away from.

And I think in a ministry mindset, and Zach, you and I have been doing ministry a long time because ministry is just one work in progress after the other. There's none of us, you know, until all of us, until we in. But you work with somebody in a relationship. You're trying to help them through this particular difficult season in their life. But it's always ongoing, and you never really see the full completion of anything

because then you just go into a new season. So I think for people like that, you like being able to just finish something and be done with it back when Lisa and I were young and needing extra money, we would go clean new construction houses at night. We were doing full-time mission today, but at night we'd go spend three hours, and it'd take us about one night to clean up one house completely

and get it ready for somebody to move in. And it was good money, but it was also when you walked away, it was done. You know what I'm saying? It was like you accomplished something. They gave you the $100 or whatever it was, and you just moved on to the next thing. So there's something valuable about that, I think. And you know who else like to burn stuff?

The Romans of the bodies of the Christians. Oh, yeah, there you go. That was good tie-in. Well, we are in that part. You can tell who the smarts once in our table is. So, yeah, we're in the ancient Christianity course. And Lecture 6, boys, Lecture 6, the Rise of the Roman persecution. There's like a big thing going around or was a couple years ago about people being obsessed

with the fall of the Roman Empire. You guys tap into that little cultural moment? Yeah, I actually was thinking about that when I was studying this. I think the thing for me that's more interesting, it's not the fall of the Roman Empire, it's the rise of the Roman Empire. Because me and John, like, we're talking about that. Like, it's, like, kind of ambiguous on how it went from, what were we talking about from, was it Greece? From the Greek, from Alexander Great.

Yeah. To Rohing into Rome. Yeah. To me, that's more interesting of, like, how Rome was able to conquer what they did in the beginning of it's a little it's kind of fuzzy yeah it's kind of vague versus the fall of it but no i was whenever that whole trend about like the roman empire that that was me i was like i'm into the roman empire that i was already in that i know a lot about the roman empire i like the roman empire something about it's just fascinating well well i and i went i mean and we did a film there and

we spent part of the time in Rome. And a lot of what was in this lecture, like we got to kind of see some of the ruins, some of the places. And it really is. I mean, it's incredible to think about how powerful Rome was in the heyday. I mean, in their heyday, they were, I mean, I don't know if this study's been done, but I would think it, you know, by comparison, it may have been the most powerful, you know,

world power maybe in history at their peak. I mean, would you say that? And Zach, you said this before on the other podcast that if you had, if you were from Africa or from, you know, some other continent and they had been conquered and they brought you to Rome and you walked around that city. Because even now, I mean, I'm so impressed that it looks the way it does all these thousands of years. Nothing else looks that good. And so if you were walking around when it was in its, you know, shiniest heyday, you would think these were gods, you know, because, you know, they were claiming a lot of. I'm claiming to be God. And so you would think that's true because you look at this and you see what had been done

there and it felt like literally you were transported to the land of the gods compared to you coming from some other places, especially 2,000 years ago. So there's no doubt. And you've got to think about it like this. God chose that era both in prophecy pointing toward it and then Jesus coming during it. So there was something about that era that was unique in all of human history that he would have chosen because remember several times Paul said at just the right time when the time had fully come. So there's no doubt this was a moment. So it really is a fascinating period. It should be for all

of us because even the divine decided to come into our time frame and into our time and space during this era. So obviously there was something special about the Roman. Yeah. Well, if you think about if the Roman Empire is arguably in this period of time, the greatest world superpowers, power in history. How fitting is it that the Christ, what you talked about in the last podcast, the incarnated God that God would actually incarnate into the most humble of forms? Going back to your question, John, from what we talked about in the last podcast, like God comes in the most humble form and leaves, and honestly, the experience is really a humiliating death, right? He comes into the greatest superpower that the world has ever known.

Man, there's something pretty powerful about how that sets up in history. You've got Rome with excessive power that honestly is illegitimate. And then you have Christ with legitimate power humbling himself, entering in. And then the collision course that happens is that the church is born. On the day of Pentecost, the church is born. And then as a result of that, it begins to spread and grow. and then as the Roman Empire expands its power, then simultaneously the church experiences persecution.

And so these things are meeting here in that moment. And Jesus, before he was crucified and resurrected, actually gave that warning. He said, you're going to face persecution. You're going to face that. And now they're in that moment. I wanted to read this passage that he read early in the lecture because I thought it was so good

and something I hadn't thought about when this idea about the gates, remember the gates of hell about being a defensive thing. So let me read this, then we'll talk about what do you talk about. Don't forget to sign up and take the courts with us for free

at unashamed for Hillsdale.com. So it was Matthew 16, 13. And this is interesting, Zach. I hadn't noticed this before until I read it this time where Jesus is when he asked this question. Jesus came to the region

of Cessaria Philippi, which by the way, that was the Roman enclave inside Israel. They just basically made a little mini-Rome there. And so he's there when he asked this question. So it's definite tie-in to what we're talking about. He asked his disciples, who do people say the son of man is? They replied, some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others, Jeremiah, one of the prophets.

What about you? Who do you say I am? Simon Peter answered, you are the Christ, the Messiah, the son of the living God. Jesus replied, blessed are you, Simon's son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my father in heaven. And I tell you the truth that you're a Peter, and on this rock of this confession he just made, I will build my church. And the gates of Hades or hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.

Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone, to the point you made earlier. that he was the Messiah. So he made the point that this is a mindset that this was going to be an offensive movement because the gates of hell were the defensive front for what Satan and hell had been doing or Hades on this earth. And so I thought that was really interesting looking at it from that perspective that Jesus is now making a prophecy and Peter's confession and then ultimately Peter himself will

unlock that key to the kingdom when he ushers in the gospel both in Acts 2 and Acts 10. So it was really interesting the idea that the rise, as we were talking about, of the Roman Empire, which continues on through this and even beyond. I mean, they're the ones that destroy the temple of the Jews in 80-70. Also was the rise of Christianity. And then ultimately, when you get to 300 or 320, Constantine becomes a convert to Christianity. And then it kind of becomes the state religion for all of Rome. And even now, you see Rome at the heart of Roman Catholicism still there in Rome.

And so very interesting that this idea of the advancement also was a dual rise for both. And, you know, one of the apologists, he mentions later, actually made that point to Marcus Aurelius. And he was like, hey, you say Christians are a threat, but you guys seem to be doing great. And so do we. you know, the idea is we both risen through the process. A little bit of a diplomatic moment as he writes this, because he pointed out, this is in the, we'll forget about Caligula and Nero and some of these horrible,

you know, the leaders of Rome that were horrible to the church. Yeah, just ignore that, but you could tell he was kind of like do a little bit of maybe politicking too, but I want to revisit that for a second. Think about, this is something the framework that I think is biblical and, it's centered to what I would say is a biblical eschatology, is that the kingdom is expanding. I mean, that seems to be the picture in scripture, even before Christ inaugurates the kingdom.

Even in the Old Testament, I mean, the Genesis 128, the call was not to, okay, I would you build the garden, cultivate this garden, and make sure you guys build a fence around this thing to keep it contained and don't let anybody in. That wasn't really the instruction. The instruction was to take it and expand it. to cultivate the earth, expand it. And so when you think about the nature of the kingdom,

and particularly as Jesus is giving this to the keys to Peter, based on this confession that I am the Christ, I'm going to build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail, that does tell you something about the nature of the kingdom, that the kingdom is expanding and moving forward. It's not regressing and retreating and fortifying. That's what hell does. Hell has gates, not the kingdom.

The kingdom, and then the way the kingdom proceeds is it barrels through, it just pushes right through, and it storms the gates of hell. And so to me, that is one of the, I mean, that is honestly one of the key things I think about when I think about, like, where is God moving? What's he doing? If I see retreat and fortification, and that seems to be the underlying strategy and effort of whatever particular church it is, I'm like, yeah, I'll probably back away from that.

But if it's an expansion of the kingdom, and I'm like, ooh, I want to lean in and learn more about what you guys are doing there. That is an interesting fact, though, right? I mean, that is the key teaching of Jesus in that text. I thought it created a cool visual because I had never thought about that idea of the gates of hell being a defensive mechanism

because it seems almost like a dichotomy when talks about the gates prevailing, almost insinuating that it seems like that's on the offense, not on the defense. If that makes sense. I thought visually, I thought that was cool about just reframing, you know, kind of providing a reframe work for that about, no, it's us that's on the offense. And like you said, Zach, hell's the one that's retreating, and it's those gates that won't prevail.

But I thought that language was interesting, the gates of hell prevailing. I just hadn't really thought much about the difference between offense and defense. But I thought, you know, looking at that through a defensive lens was helpful from a visual perspective. And because what is the kingdom and what is the church doing is evangelizing and spreading the gospel. And so that is the spreading that's going out. It's going out. It's going out. And so what's happening in this particular moment in history is that Christians, even though the Roman Empire was benefiting from the emergence of Christianity, by the way, I have a book on the shelf behind me by a guy named Tom Holland, I think is his name.

It's called Dominion. and he writes about the history of Christianity and how much impact it has had on the world. And if you wanted to just take a deep dive into, like, how has the world benefited from Christianity? It's, I mean, it's undeniable. I mean, it's like that the history is like undeniable that the world we live in today,

modern science, medicine, hospital systems, charities, caring for the poor, the abolishment of slavery, freedom movements, like it's all anchored in Christ. And I mean, without the church, there's none of that. And so you think about like when he writes to Marcus Aurelius and he's basically saying, have you guys not benefited from, I mean, look, this is great. And that was the truth.

But even in the face of that truth, the Roman Empire did not see it that way. And so they began to persecute the church, which, you know, for some of the reasons, which were just absolutely incredible to me, that what, the early church was accused of, cannibalism, because they would, you know, they were participating in the Eucharist or, because, you know, you eat the flesh of Christ, drink his blood, oh, there must be cannibals,

orgies because of the holy kiss. You know, they're accusing the early church of engaging in orgies. All these different things that they, they'd created like this straw man and these false narratives about the church so that they could go and persecute them. It's just amazing.

And we, don't we see that today? the same kind of make-believe stuff. Oh, yeah, and they became kind of the whipping boys. I wanted to read this text. This is something Jesus said earlier in Matthew 11, before he said that in Matthew 16. And it kind of goes with what we've been talking about. He's talking about John the Baptist.

He says, I will send my messenger ahead of you and will prepare your way before you. And that's a prophecy from Malachi that's about John the Baptist. I tell you the truth. And here's the kingdom message. Among those born of women, there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist. Yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Which you're starting to understand why this doesn't sit well in a Roman world in theology because the great people are the ones who are the great people, not the least. And so automatically you see upside down. But listen to this, and this goes with this idea about the gates of hell. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing. There's that concept about offensivecy. And forceful men lay hold of it. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John, if you were willing to accept it,

he is the Elijah who was to come. He has ears let him hear. And so again, it's just that upside down philosophy that I think made the Christians curious to the Romans, but also totally not understanding how all this was meant to be. And so they became the whipping boys, and they became the group that anytime you want to blame it on somebody, blame it on the Christians. And it happened over and over and over, all the way throughout, you know, all these first few, three centuries. Where was that at again? That was Matthew 11.

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So it's the same idea that this is, it's a force for good. But I think that's what makes it in and of itself unpalatable for people because I think it's more comfortable to just live in your culture and just go along like everybody. I mean, because part of the other problems, Zach, was they were abstaining. They wouldn't do the festivals. They didn't appear patriotic because they wouldn't make sacrifices. Remember, they said, you've got to pay your rent, you know, to be here. You got to. I didn't know that at the time Christians were called atheists. Yeah. Because they only believed in one guy. Right. Because they didn't

have all the statues. It's so interesting. Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting when you, the Celsius, the platonic philosopher. That's the guy I talked about last episode. In the book, he was the one that was that when he was denying the credence of the Bible because of Jesus not appearing to Caesar and Pilate and Herod and all these powerful people. So I did not hear him say his name in the lecture, but I just saw his name on the study guide. I was just about to say that. Well, and on the study guy that says is he argued that the Christians should be persecuted for not paying rent by sacrificing to the gods of Rome who were vital to Rome's continued prosperity. And you think about like the absurdity of this.

I mean, you see this today. It's, you know, we say money is the bottom line. I don't think that is the bottom line. With wickedness, you get, you do become futile in your thinking. Christianity alone stands head and shoulders about bringing human flourishment to the world. Nobody does it like the church. Like, it just doesn't happen outside the church. I mean, you may have pockets of it, but the movement that has brought

human flourishment to the world has happened to the church. And so I think that what's at stake here is more about, well, who gets to hold the keys to power? I think the whole thing is a power dynamic. And so the Christians were like, man, we're doing our own thing. Like, yes, like, there's prosperity that's happening. There's human flourishing is going on. That wasn't the issue.

They had the issue they had is that they wouldn't pay their so-called rent by sacrificing to the gods. And they viewed this as a, as, I love the way that Dr. Calvert talked about this. It was like they had this cultural heritage that the, that Rome believed was core to their identity and their prosperity. And they thought that the Christians not participating in the idolatry was actually eroding their cultural heritage and their national identity, which would lead to their demise. And so they're like, no, we have to go after these people, because what they're doing is undermining the very thing that led to our prosperity, not realizing that actually what the Christians were doing would actually lead to much more prosperity

than they could have ever fathom. But in this particular case, they didn't see that. And so that was one of the big reasons why they persecuted the church. And don't you think that, again, them not understanding that Christianity came out of Judaism. So they just kind of saw it all lumped together. you think they probably thought when they surrounded Jerusalem in 8070 and wiped out the temple and wiped out the heritage that had been there all these years, that that probably knocked out all of it. I mean, like, you know, from their perspective, they probably, because they saw it all

kind of rolled into one anyway. So they're probably thinking, that's the end of that. Don't you think that the Jews probably thought the same thing when they martyred Stephen? Yeah. They thought, we, do you think Saul thought, you know what? We've got this thing licked. Yeah. I mean, you know they thought they did. The first person, a fierce persecution. broke out against the church and the church ran and scattered. Yeah. And not knowing that it was that persecution that actually led to the expansion of the church and the church finally going out into Samaria, Judea, and the ends of the earth,

that happened when Stephen was martyred. And so I think that that's the crazy thing about God's kingdom. And I think that was what Jesus meant when he said, the gates of hell aren't going to prevail. Yeah, they might kill a prophet here or there. They might, you know, stamp out a house church. they may persecute a group of believers a whole big, but you know what? They cannot stop the kingdom.

And I got so much encouragement when the lecture moved into the story about Justin martyr, or who later became known as Justin the martyr, of how he came to Christ. Because, Al, we've been to that Roman Colossim where they persecuted Christians, and we've done kind of a deep dive on that, and we're immersed in that experience. And I cannot imagine how intimidating, as a believer in Jesus, how intimidating it would be to be in that Roman

colosseum and to see a people group martyred in such a way. It would be the, to me, that would crush, I hope that wouldn't crush my faith, right? And then it was that very thing that Justin Martyr saw. He saw these Christians going to death for what they believe to be true. and just brutally murdered, and he said, this has to be true. Why would anybody die like that for something that wasn't true? And he became known as the kind of the father of the Christian martyrs. Yeah, in fact, somebody has erected a very large wooden cross in the Coliseum now.

And so, remember exactly when we walked in, it was the first thing we noticed. And we were like, look at there. You know, 2,000 years ago, they were killing them for their faith, right here, eaten by, animals and just terrible, brutal ways to die as a spectacle, but the old cross is still there. You know, the spectacle is gone, except for the apparatus around it, but the cross still stood. And, you know, martyr, one of the things Justin Martyr did was he, he was one of the key figures that argued that Jesus was the Messiah promised in the Old Testament. Yeah.

I mean, that was one of his big, he was kind of an apologist, and so he's making the case for this. you know, I was just watching a thing. I don't know why it's been popping up with my feed. Maybe this is an anniversary of it, but you remember the Coptic Christians that were beheaded a few years back. And you think about like this kind of persecution is still going on in the world. And, you know, think about, I saw one of the pastors who had a picture of those terrorists,

and they had all the Coptic Christians on their knees, 23 or 21 of them on their knees and they were basically said you renounce your faith or your head gut comes off and every one of them, every single one of them died a martyr's death they went to their death

proclaiming the Lord Jesus Christ and there was one guy standing behind them who was dressed different than the rest of them and this pastor was like that's Saul giving the instructions to kill Christians and he was talking about how no one is beyond the grace of God and he was thinking about it. So it just hit me in this moment

like these forces of evil have come against the church. We have an ancient faith. Like in any world like this should have been stamped out. But the gates of hell cannot prevail against the coming of the

kingdom. And in the face of even such persecution, one of the earliest persecutors was Saul. Now that guy, we're appealing to that guy to tell That's what's true about the Christian faith. I mean, this is wild. This is this wild what the kingdom has done and the advancements that we've seen in the name of Christ.

And it's so encouraging that we belong to an ancient Christian faith. So we want you to sign up and take the course with us for free at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. Wasn't it Justin that he mentioned had this introduced the thought about common grace going back pre-Christ, which I totally agree with? because that's really the whole point of the book of Hebrews, right, is showing you that faith, you know, because you get to Hebrews 11 in that great chapter on faith and that just introduces all these people that have led up to this moment.

And then you get to chapter 12. And so you see this idea of the great cloud of witnesses, all those that have been pointing towards Jesus throughout human history. And by faith, that is the combining factor. And then Christ comes. And then now we know why he came that all. all of us since then looked back to Christ. So you had all those looking forward to this moment,

and now all of us looking back to this moment. But that is the whole point. So I thought this guy, Justin, I mean, he got it very early, how important it really was. I mean, if he's the one that came up with that concept where they first started talking about it, I thought, well, he got it. He got it from the book of Hebrews,

which is very, very powerful. The idea that it's always been about Jesus. It's always been about him coming. So at the time, so what would he have believed before as he's sitting in the Coliseum, like, what would his worldview have been? Would he have been, like, would it have been, like, Greek philosophy, or what would it, like, what did he likely believe before he became a Christian? Probably just, probably believed in the Roman deities, all that, I would imagine.

Didn't he say it was, was he the one that the Jewish guy on the beach? Was that him or was that somebody else? I thought that was him. But, yeah, he was, he met with a guy on the beach and it was convinced, that from that the Christ was the only answer to the things that he was seeking. But it was the actual persecution and the commitment to Christ through death that convinced him like, oh yeah, there's got to be something more, right? So if you think about that, that's how it would have affected any of us.

If you were living in that day and this was going on, if you love that, then, I mean, you're talking about bloodthirsty and just self-absorbed, but to think these people are going to their deaths over this in terrible ways, I mean, that would have to impact you if you had any sort of openness about your heart and your life, right? I mean, how could you, it's hard for us to fathom in a modern world how people, you know, could just sit there and watch this as a spectacle

and say it's a good thing. I mean, at the very least, you'd think you'd have to feel bad about it. But apparently that's how powerful the evil of it all was. I mean, if it wasn't, if it's as long as it wasn't you, then maybe it's not so bad. Yeah. Yeah, I think he would have been more just a general pagan until he wasn't, right? And he got to witness firsthand the persecution in the church. What's interesting is how the story unfolds in this lecture is, and throughout history,

is that the persecution was fueled at least in a large degree, by the fear that somehow the national identity would erode through their non-participation in the idolatry, which would limit their prosperity or even diminish their prosperity. What's interesting, though, of what actually happened in history is that through the might and the power of the Roman Empire, after Marcus Aurelius died, I think it was in what, let me pull it up here, in 180, that there was a ton of upheaval that happened over the next, you know, 100 years.

100 years. It's so funny because it looks a lot, like, I think one of the reasons why people talk about the fall of the Roman Empire so much is because they wonder, are we in decline? Is the West in decline? And you do see things that are similar, a lot of similarities. One of them is the way that they devalued their currency to pay for, to pay their soldiers. is that they ran out of money. They ran so that what they end up doing is devaluing their currency.

They started to mix bronze in with some of the silver and the gold. And they had inflation. I mean, it's what's what we're doing now. Like, we're literally devaluing our currency. We do it differently. We just print more money and put it into the system. But you can actually go back and look. Francis Schaefer does a great job of showing this.

You can look at the artwork in the Roman Empire and how it declines over time. as they fall. You can look at like a coin that was minted in the peak of the Roman Empire and a coin that was minted at the end of the Roman Empire. And just the detail, the details are like one looks like a, like a five-year-old made it, and the other looks like a real artist created it. And it's just things get lazy. The art gets lazy. Everything begins to decline. So the very thing that they were trying to prevent through the persecution of the church was the actual thing that they brought on by their own depravity. And that's like the story for all of us, right? That's good.

Yeah, I pulled up the bonus content that is on the course about Justin Martin. He was talking about Justin writing apology and talking about that the Greeks point to Christ and the way he says like the barbarians point to Christ. pointed to Christ. And kind of the idea we talked about in the CS Lewis course is that the myths of the world all pointed to Christ. And so I think he believed, I think prior to his conversion, I feel like there is some kind of analogy on what he, and I think a lot of the Romans at the time believed to like our modern day agnostics in the sense of their maybe something else. Like for him, it was, there may be Zeus, there may be gods. But his higher, his higher priority was reason and their version of reason at the time. And I think that compares to like, and so when he converted and saw the truth of Christ and then went back and saw it through the lens of Abraham and then saw it through the lens

of the Greek logos, it all makes sense to him. For us, going off that content, that things that you said about, like, the culture of the Romans and how Christianity was like a threat to the culture, I think they were, they were actually right that the loss of their culture did eventually lead to their decline. Like, that was true. but there were so many aspects of the culture that was what we would say is terrible and against what God wants for our world like the hierarchy the slavery the

the roles of men and women the the punishments they would dole out like there are so many things that I think God was trying to pull us as the world into a new place and like into a better I mean I think it's it's a little like I'll say better morality, and I think you can hear that and say, like, God's not about morality. He's about calling to itself. But I think God is leading the entire world to some place, and he's teaching us and revealing things to us that to Christians, that we're finding out that as we study scripture and as we commune with the Holy Spirit, commune with each other, we are learning

these things that we're trying to teach and impose onto the world, how we better love each other and earth. Well, and Zach, you said this before. Without the Holy Spirit of God, it's very difficult for people to understand the way you look at the world when you have the Holy Spirit of God living in you. And you're now a temple of the Holy Spirit. So it's going to automatically build in a whole different worldview for all of us. And I love it that he kept asking the question, why would they want to kill?

Like, you know, they seem to be pretty good citizens and they behaved themselves. And they weren't, it wasn't like they were trying to. up in Rome, they were living there. But I think the mindset is it's because they're just different, and they have a different, they have a different allegiance. And I wanted to read this verse, because I meant to read this early when I was in Hebrews. This is Hebrews 1113. And the Hebrew writer just right in the middle of all these great heroes of the Jewish faith says this. All these people are still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised. That's that of that common grace. they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance.

And they admitted, and he said this at the very first of this lecture, that they were aliens and strangers on the earth. Remember when he said that right at the very beginning? He quoted somebody from that century. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. So it's bigger than your nationality. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had the opportunity to return.

Instead, they were longing for a, a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, and he is prepared a city for them. So this idea that we transcend whatever our culture is. And Zach, I agree 100%. I think we are in decline. And I think it's just going to naturally always happen to kingdoms on earth, even one that we love. I mean, I say it all the time. I love my blue passport. But you know what? my citizenship is some other place. It's beyond the United States of America. And that's why you'll see the same power grabs.

Right now you see no common sense. I mean, they can't even get, you'll pay the people that are protecting the airports. It's just like, just let people go and just people suffering. What is the, what is wrong with you people? Why can't you just get together and pass a bill? But now it's such a power grab for both sides that nobody makes a move and people suffer. And so that's no different. than what we're reading about in the follow row.

Exactly the same mindset. Well, you think about like when you get in a, when you're a kid, you see two kids fighting over like a toy truck or something, and you're like, like the jealousies that emerge, or I think what Renee Gerard would call it, memetic desire, that I want what you have.

I have, my desire mimics your desire. I got to have what you have. And then that coveting enters into the, into the mix and that, that I want, I want, I want, and I only want because you have. And once that takes hold, then all of a sudden, human flourishings out the window. Because you'd rather see that burn the whole thing down than you would rather watch them enjoy what they have.

And so I think that there is a level of irrationality in the depravity of humanity. that the reason why Rome would persecute the church is a spirit of an Antichrist. It's depravity. It's a spirit that doesn't believe in an embodied life. It's a spirit that says, let me consume, let me pull in, let me have what's mine. The picture that Jesus presented was not that, by the very definition of the verse that he gave of the kingdom. The kingdom is not pulling in. The kingdom is going out.

And so I think that if you try to make rational sense and you try to think about, well, why would they persecute the church? Why would they do that? And you're trying to make a rational argument for it. There's not really a rational argument. It's that that's what evil does. Evil doesn't care about human flourishing. Evil cares about the consumption and the consolidation of power over somebody else. And all of a sudden the world doesn't become a place to be cultivated and wealth to be cultivated. It becomes a pie. that you've got to get your share of. And that seems to be the core threat throughout all of Scripture and all of humanity of how we delineate between evil and good, God's kingdom and the kingdom of the world. Yeah, and it's not just successful countries either because I've been on the continent of Africa

enough times to see the same human nature takes over whether there's a little or a lot. And the idea is I want to be in charge here. And so you see all these civil wars and people fighting over things. they don't even have anything hardly. You'd think it'd be what makes so much more sense to pull together and do something

for the good of our community. Instead, nope, we're going to fight it out over what little we have. We've all experienced this. I went to the final four last year because I'm a big Florida fan and Fred, my son, I got one out of the five kids, I got one that likes the gators. So I was like, you get

the reward. I've never taken any of my kids to football games or basketball games because they're all fans of people who are like. Thankfully, I stepped in for Max. because he's the only one that makes it has any sense in that family. Yeah, so well, we went to the game, and I was so excited because we're at the final four. I mean, like, we're one of, I mean, not many people can make it to that game, right? Look at all the fans, and we're there in the stadium, and I get in my seat,

and I'm up there kind of in the nosebleed section, and I got up there, and the first thing I did was I looked down at section 106, and I thought, that's where I literally I could not like the whole time I'm just like I got the wrong seats gosh because my brother's sitting closer to down front and I'm and I I just wonder what he had yeah and so the coveting sets in right and it's like your brother the dentist yeah yeah the dentist you're an anti-dentai I'm an anti-dentight they got their own school with it. Anyways, a Seinfeld reference. But, you know,

my sinful nature, if somehow he would have been like, I'm sorry, your seats are actually behind. If his seats would have been behind me or he would have got moved behind me, I'd have been like, man, we got the best seats in the house. But the fact that he had better seats than me made me,

I would have been very happy had he moved. And that's how we are, though. Like, this is like sin. And so it's not about human flourishing. I'm not there to enjoy the game at that point. Now I'm here to covet, and you have something that I want. And if I'd gotten down in his seats, guess what? You'd want four seats. Well, and the deception, the deception, too, is that it's like with the coveting, because I'll experience that sometimes too. Like, you'll have that experience, right? Like, let's say your hypothetical scenario that you just said plays out. And your

brothers in those seats, you're envious of it. You're coveting it. And then let's say someone comes up to they were like, hey, man, you're in the wrong seat. And he actually is behind you. Like, but then you would feel guilty. Like, then you'd feel bad that he did just get moved. So, like, it's, it's too, folks. But that's because I'm a Christian. If I wasn't a Christian, I'd be, right.

Yeah, yeah, good out of here. But that's what I'm saying, but it's the Holy Spirit, because it is that conviction of the covet. But then when you actually do get what you are coveting, then you can't even enjoy what you have because then you're just guilty and you feel bad for it. So I experience that sometimes, and it's like, man, why? Like, why I can't enjoy where I'm at now because I feel guilty for the thing that I was coveting?

Well, it's the phrase in the Bible was selfish ambition and vain conceit. You see it all throughout. Zach, bring us on. We're self, we're self, we're, oh, I'm sorry, that's James. We're selfishness. We're, we're, uh, selfish ambition. Oh my gosh. Bain conceit.

James, yeah, thank you. Uh, you will find disorder in every, every, every, every, uh, we're, uh, we're, uh, every evil practice. Every evil practice, exactly. James 316. I'll end with a confession here because we're at the end. So I did end up upgrading my seats. During the game?

For the next game. For the next game. For the final. And so I moved down to section 106. Much better seats. And I kid you not. And I had better seats than Grant. That next one.

And I look to my left and I'm looking at section 103. And I'm like, I mean, it's the nature of evil. So here's the picture that. This is the nature of the kingdom of Rome. This is the nature of the kingdom of the world. What we're seeing in ancient Christianity, the course we're taking right now is the history of the kingdom of God, which is an upside down kingdom. And we're seeing it unfold in history.

So you guys go take the course with us, Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. It's free. If you send in your certificate to, what's that again? Let me see. I've got to put my notes here. Send in your certificate. You guys can upload it at watchunashamed.com, and you guys will be entered into a drawing,

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