Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1345 | The Robertsons Have Seen Firsthand the Wreckage Pornography Leaves Behind

Episode Date: June 1, 2026

Pornography’s damage doesn’t stay private, and the Robertsons have seen firsthand how shame and  secrecy can break down families. Al, Zach, and Chris Grainger — author, podcast host, and founder of The Lion Within Us men’s ministry — talk about why pornography has become one of the biggest spiritual battles facing families today, while also digging into the broader cultural problem of people trading purpose, leadership, and courage for comfort. The guys remember the time Phil walked straight into a dangerous situation and gave the men who stole his firearms one ultimatum: return everything or else. In this episode: Hosea 5, verse 14; Revelation 5, verses 1–14; Proverbs 22, verse 13; Zephaniah 3, verses 1–3; 1 Peter 5, verse 8; John 10, verse 10; Romans 12, verses 1–2 “Unashamed” Episode 1345 is sponsored by: https://preborn.com/unashamed — Visit the PreBorn! website or dial #250 and use keyword BABY to donate today. https://homechef.com/unashamed — Get 50% off and free shipping on your first box plus free dessert for life! http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ — Sign up now for free, and join the Unashamed hosts every Friday for Unashamed Academy Powered by Hillsdale College https://fastgrowingtrees.com — Get 20% your first purchase when using the code UNASHAMED at checkout. Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters 00:00 When Chris Grainger’s First Met Phil 06:45 Phil’s No-Nonsense Confrontation 12:18 How “The Lion Within Us” Began 17:35 Why Men Are Looking for Real Connection 21:20 Porn, Shame & the Battle for Men’s Minds 28:21 The Lion of Judah vs. the Fake Lion 32:10 Biblical Lessons from ‘The Lion King’ 35:41 Finding a Paul and a Timothy 42:28 Zach & Al Get Humbled by Their Mentors 48:36 Why Men Must Lead Their Own Families— Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome back to Unashamed. We're still up here in the mountain lair, I call it. We got a resident hillbilly, yeah. We do. Not really, because you're from Raleigh, so that's not really hillbilly country. We're outside of Raleigh. Are you in the hills? He does live on a farm. Yeah, I mean, 30 minutes outside. Are you redneck or hillbilly if you had to classify?

Oh, a lot closer to a redneck. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You get down the mountain. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Do you know what liver mush is?

I do. I do. I don't really like it, but I know what it is. Okay. Yeah. He's a redneck. No, he's a redneck. And maybe close to a hillbilly.

This is Chris Granger, everyone. And Chris has an organization called The Lion Within Us. Yes, sir. And so we've been friends for a few years. And so you came on, Chris, some of you liked that have been, like, old-time, long-suffering. Unashamed fans will remember maybe that Chris was on our podcast. Chris, you know the number. What's the number?

705. OG. We call that the original gangster. Because that's way bad. That's just past. So you were a guest. Yes, sir. This is your second time on.

Second time on. Yes, sir. He was there in person at the layer. So it wasn't quite the original spot because originally we were in the lodge, which turned out to later be Phyllis and Tony's bedroom, which would have been very awkward if we'd continue to podcast from there. And so once Phyllis came into our life in 2020, we moved to the layer.

And so it wasn't long probably after that that you came down. But you looked a lot different. You were clean-shaven. You had short hair. You were working at some bank or something. I don't know what were you doing? Engineering. Engineer.

Yeah, he's an engineer. And now, Unashamed Nation, the influence of people like us and Jobie Martin and other people, this is what we got now. He's been catechized. He has like he has totally taken. He's got the Robertson. He's got the look. The long hair, the beard.

It's just like you let yourself go. I even miss him back out of proof. You know what I'm saying? Do you still wear deodorant? That's the question. Hey, and we'll just leave that day. We'll just let that hang. That's my opening lines out when I go and speak.

Because I always say that... It's got to be Mando if you do it. Lisa, oh, that's right. Got to be Mando. Lisa says that I'm the best looking Robertson. But I've got a picture up when I'm telling this joke. And it's all my brothers and sigh and dad. And I was like, but look at this picture.

picture. I mean, it's really not hard to be the best look at riders. I mean, like, the bar is so low that all I have to do is occasionally cut my hair, trim my beard, wear deodorant, bathe, whether you need it or not, you know, just the basics. To be that person. That's all you got to do. Basic hygiene. Exactly. So I'm going to, next time I see your wife, I'll ask her. She'll tell me the truth. That's right. But yeah, so Chris is, so welcome back to Unashamed. And so we knew, Chris, Chris has a new book out, which we're going to talk about a little bit later, but this is what it looks like, unleashing the line within, which fits your brand with what you're doing.

But I wanted to talk a little bit just about kind of your family and how things are going. Because I think you've had, since the last time of your own, I think, how many kids do you have? We have four last time I counted. Yeah, four. Yeah, that's it. It's kind of like Zach. He has to count them off and check them to know, right? Yeah, we got five.

There you go. But you're like him. You got little ones. Like you got two. Got little, he's got a three-year-old, a four-year-old, and then a 14- to 15-year-old.

Yes, sir. Yeah, we're 22 all the way down to five now. There you go. Yeah, we're rolling. That's it. We'll have grandbabies. I bet Max and Annabelle will be the first,

be honest with you. Yeah. But they'll have, because they just got married this weekend. But we'll have grandbabies that will probably in the next two years, I'm guessing, and Ruth will be seven.

So I have a seven-year-old daughter and then grandbabies. There they go. It's a young man's game. I'm telling you right now, like even the five-year-old, I mean, Roos, I mean, you got the, hey, she has a nightmare. I've been getting up for a nightmare, I'm like it used to be. Now I'm like, well.

And I noticed even last night when we were there with Ruth, maybe it's because she's the baby and because there's a broad range in your ages and yours, but she's definitely got some drama. Oh, gosh. coming in my science, she's like, all the cousins. And I was sitting there thinking, it's so funny you brought that up, because I sat down to

console or what's going on, they're being mean to me. And she had a whole list of allegations. And I had a flashback of you when I was a kid, like little kid, like maybe like three. And this just popped in my memory. It was you, our cousin, Tracea Lee, no, not Tracea Lee, it was Kim.

and I think Jace was there whatever the image was y'all were there and I had drank milk out of the refrigerator that was sour so it had expired

and so so I'm like But it's too you don't go over there this is like core memory stuff right here and so they're like well you just drank sour milk and I'm like okay and I'm like you're gonna die

you're gonna die yeah yeah and they were chanting and Zach's going to die, Zach's, and I thought I was going to die. They convinced me that I had drank poison. If you drink sour milk, you're going to die. And you guys were chanting that. And then this other image of the same setting,

this flashback in, they were telling me that I had epidermis, which is skin. I didn't know that at the time. We got that from your dad. He would always say that. And then they said I had garments on my back. They were doing all this stuff.

I mean, it's literally like hours of no parental supervision because we were all raised like feral cats. Right, right. And my older cousins were just like psychological torment siops. Which what that means is that was way, whatever they were doing to her last night was not near. I guess that's right. That's right.

At least I'm not telling you're going to die. If you had to live what I lived through. That's right. But it is ironic to show you my growth now, I guess, now that I'm a grandpa, because I was actually consoling. Ruth and redirecting some of her drama last night into something to help. So at least I've grown out of something. They made dinner for us last night.

We did. There you go. So Al said the only way I'm going to hang out with Zach is if I volunteered to cook dinner. Well, and once we, because we cooked the whole meal and everybody who had all the cousins there. But it wound up being great because they had just been killing themselves to do this wedding. And just us watching them, we're like, oh, man, I forget what it's like, how much effort goes in to those two days or three.

And so I just watching it, I thought, so we were glad to get to do that because then they all just got to come in and sit down and eat and kind of relax and talk about the wedding and all that kind of stuff. So I want you to tell the story about going to the podcast because we were talking about it before we came on. Because back in the day when we were at the lair, I would always love it when people would come in to do the podcast because, you know, you see our studio and, you know, you see our studio and It was pretty nicely done.

You know, the Cole and some of those guys that fixed up a nice little studio. You would think it would be something like this. Like, it was just a nice little area. But it was just our hunting place. And what you went through to get back to where the podcast studios, the look of it. You know, so I would always love asking guests. Well, what did you think when you came in here? So I want you to tell them the story because yours was even more unique.

Because you took, you met at Dad's house. Yeah, we went through the house. Yeah. And we had breakfast with them. And then I remember walking out with you. to the truck and I said like hey ow you think I could ride with your dad to the studio he's like ask him so I asked him mr field can I ride with me he said I won't in son so I opened the door to the truck stuff falls out right and I'm sitting there like there's nowhere to sit in this truck bro because

this truck is just full of crap yeah and it had the AR there I'm like all right don't want to mess with that so I just put he's like just shove a spot so I just shoved the spot he had a regular coffee cup full to the brim and no top just sitting there sitting there with just drinking that thing. I think the top we got. That was his old white work truck. A white work truck. And it was like maybe 10 miles an hour.

We went to maximum. And he, you know, telling me the historical everything on the landmarks and things like that. And we got a line a couple of cars behind us and he could care less, right? And we just like, we pull up there. And I'm like, we're here. He's like, we're here. I'm like, all right. So where do we go?

He's like, follow me, son. I open the door and I saw the side by sides and the gators and all the that stuff. I'm like, crawfish traps. Yeah, I mean, like, where is the studio? He's like, just keep going. And then you opened the door and there's the little Miss Maddie there and it was awesome. So yeah, it was a, not what I was expected. A little oasis in a, yeah, in the middle of it. And it had a sticky note on the door that says, recording, be quiet, something like that. Yeah, they just stuck it on the outside. I love it. And everybody we ever had on, I would ask them that

question. I probably asked you that day. And my favorite answer probably was Allie Best Stuck Alibeth came and was on. And, you know, she's so prim and proper and, you know, has everything together. And I said, what do you think about all this when you came in? And she said, well, it certainly fits your brand. Yeah. That was her line, which was really good. So, Jay, based on our raising, I would say the last thing we probably planned on doing was being gardeners.

Dad was, he liked doing it for hunting purposes, but not so much around the house, right? When it comes to fast growing trees, this is the easiest way. I've ever seen to plant a tree. Exactly. We are the beneficiary of having a great sponsor, fast-growing trees. It's America's largest, most trusted online nursery, thousands of trees and plants and over 2 million happy customers in which Jason and I and Zach are all happy customers. Plus, everything's backed by their alive and thrive guarantee, so everything arrives happy, healthy, and ready to plant.

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terms and conditions may apply. Phil was hilarious. A funny Phil story came up last night. We were talking about a family, family friends of ours that kind of gone through a rough time. And one of the young boys got killed or died of a drug overdose. The other one just got arrested for some stuff. And we were talking about them last night.

Just kind of sad. It was going down in their family. And Al, you reminded me of the story when they actually stole a bunch of stuff from Phil. Yeah. And the word got back to him. Because he was, I don't even know at first he knew he was missing some guns. And, you know, because dad's, got a lot of stuff around.

So, but the word got back to him with some guys that we had worked with for years, but had been away and way from the Lord and away from us for a minute, had stolen. He had a bunch of stolen guns and some of them were fills. So what does dad do? He goes and jumps right in that truck. He didn't go to the cops. He didn't go to the cops. He went straight to them.

He got addressed. He knew where they lived. That's right. That's right. He walked in. Which was dangerous. Very dangerous. I mean, they're stealing guns, you know.

He walks in there, but it's just so dad. And, of course, these were kids that grew up, like, under our tutelage. And so, you know, I mean, obviously they revered dad and were afraid of him, but not so much that they stole, didn't steal from him. And so he walks in. He says, all right, boys, because they're just sitting around like this in a living room. He said, I know what you've been up to. I know.

And they were like, well, what are you talking about, Mr. Phil? You know, and he's like, I know what you did. You got my stuff. you got my guns over here, you need a lot of other stuff. And they're like, no, no, they're trying to. He's, hey, uh-uh, I don't want to hear denials. Here's what's going to happen.

If those, if everything you took, because they took it, I think, from out there at the lair, everything you took is not right back where it was by 5 p.m. on the dot. I'm not talking about 501. I'm talking about 5 o'clock. He said, my next move will be, be Wachitaugh-Paris

sheriff deputies showing up here in full force and you will get the full force of the law and the wrath he just gives us

and so Not 501 boy 5.01 and he said you got it? And they just were looking and they didn't admit

to anything and so he just turns on a hill and walks out the door and so he gets back home and he doesn't even go over there

or anything so he drives over there at five o'clock. All the stuff is right. There you go. And it was tough. He didn't even know was gone. That's what was so funny.

He didn't even know. He didn't even know. That thing I've been looking for. That's exactly right. That's funny. That was funny. But that was the classic, which is funny because dad

was always kind of a he didn't really like direct confrontation. Yeah. He didn't enjoy that. Like you'd hear a story like that and you think, oh, he'd say a scary guy. And he was scary. And he did have some conversations, but he didn't like it.

He didn't enjoy it. He didn't enjoy a confrontation. And so usually if he had a rebuke to do, it would be directional. Like, you'd be in a room. Now, he'd bring it up, but he wouldn't like, if he had an issue with you, Chris, he would be talking to Zach. He said, you know, we got our man over here, Zach. You know, he's been up to no good. He's been running around.

He's getting in the britches. You know, he's doing this, that. You go through his whole thing. So he's like confronting you. Right. But he's talking to Zach. And he said, no, what are we going to do about our man right here? Because he's got a problem.

Right. And then there was one guy one time that had some issues and was doing some false representation of being in our family. And they had a house church one night, and it had come to dad's attention. So at the end, he said, all right, we're going to have a prayer for our brother over here because he's been up to some line and some problems. And claiming to be things he's not, you know, taking stuff as not his. And he said, so we're just going to pray. to the Almighty by it.

Like he's sitting there in the circle of people and he goes right into his prayers. He's got our brother over here and he needs to change. He needs to repent. He needs to repent. So Father,

we're praying for that repentance tonight. So the directional dialogue for this guy was to the Almighty. Yeah. And he said, and he was like, look, Lord, we're forgiven. But, you know, we can't forgive him

unless he just admits what he's up to. So he was aggressively passive aggressive. He was. So he finishes the prayer. And then it's just like that awkward moment. And then so the guy, so everybody starts kind of breaking up because that was also the end of the

hours. And the guy comes over and sits down yesterday. He said, Mr. Phil, I just want to tell you, I'm sorry. You know, you're right.

Your prayer was right on the money. And I've been doing this. And I'm so sorry. And he said, that's all right. He said, you know, we're all forgiven by the blood of Jesus,

son. He said, that anymore you know they it was like that last thing so so what what we're talking about Chris is a lot about what you do and it was interesting because when you came what year was that do you remember I was 23 okay so that was three years ago and you were kind of at the you know you were still kind of at the early stages of what you're doing now and it's really just kind of God has blessed it in some powerful ways but I want you to tell the audience kind of how that began what what was your passion for men

and men's ministry and discipleship. And we'll talk a little bit about the book too. But just kind of how did that start for you? Yeah, it really started because, I mean, when I got saved, I didn't have anyone disciplining me. I mean, I didn't have a disciple walking with me through the areas of that sanctification growing with Christ. When I went to college, I just did things my way and went to engineering school,

you know, kind of, and then really my 20s just lived the way that the world told us, right? And make us much money, just do what you can for you. You weren't a believer during this. I was a belief. I gave my life to Christ at 16, but then really kind of straight away. I got you. I really wasn't walking. Okay.

Then I went through a pretty tough divorce. And then, right, then I got remarried to my wife. And then we actually lost the child. And, I mean, it's stillborn. It was a whole thing that it's part of our journey. But then we had her, had our little lily. And I told my wife, I said, I really feel it. call. I'd start another podcast and doing things in engineering, and I was like, I feel like

God is calling me to do something that's absolutely crazy. She's like, what? I think he wants me to use my experiences and leadership, the things that I failed at in my life, and use those stories to teach guys to help them be leaders, because I had already started really leaning into my faith more and more and got some mentors and things like that. She's like, of course you just calling you that. I'm like, why do you say that? She's like, you're living in a house with me and three women. I had three daughters at the time. She said, you're surrounded by estrogen. Like, you got to get some guys in your life.

She said, this is going to be great for you. It's very wise on her part to recognize that. Amen. Instead of trying to feminize you, she's like, you need some money. She's like, you need it, you know. And so we just started there. And it's like, well, I think we're just going to start with just one little thing. This one little thing is the podcast.

And from there, it's just kind of God's taking it. And everybody asks, like, what, did you have all this mapped out? No, anything mapped out. I'm just doing the next step of obedience. whatever he calls me to next. And that's just, that's been the journey. And that is the strategy. So that's where we're at.

So you, so you listened to our podcast, right? And so that had an impact on you. And then you asked me, sent me an email and told me that you were listener and asked if I would come on your podcast. And I try to do as many, I've always appreciated,

because our podcast has helped a lot of people, like, you know, upstart to say, you know, we want to do something like this. And that's the beautiful thing about podcasting is anybody can do it. I mean, you know, may not always have a massive audience. You may have a meeting.

You know why that is? I think because what his shirt says, I'm just a guy. Yeah. Like, I think people watch this podcast. They're like, they ain't nothing special about these boys. And they're right.

I can do that. You know what I mean? Which really is, I mean, I think that's that somebody told me in Nashville recently, we got a bunch of country music singers that listen to this podcast, which is weird.

I mean, for me, like, oh, I was, well, y'all are like the, like, normal guys. just normal guys talking about Jesus, and I think that's why it resonates. But I think that, but to your point, there's a vacuum in that with men right now in culture that men don't have a place to really come around. Right.

Which is a lot of our audience, we're older. I'm the youngest, and I'm 48. Al's, 61. 61. Phil was 70. How old was it when he died? He was 78. 78.

So he was in his 70s doing this. podcast. James is in his 50s and like our audience is a lot of young men and their 20s. Yeah. And people are like, oh, yeah, I got an older. No, we actually, our artist is very young. Yeah. And I think that that's that, but it's because they're hungry for some real conversation.

That's right. Yeah. Men are right now. You'll probably see that too. 100%. That's what we see all the time. And that's what's led like the podcast for us. The message was being received will, but I wanted to have a chance to talk with

one-on-one and walk with them. That's how we started the online community and kind of finding ways to bring guys together in a setting and that just really that's what guys were looking for those places to have the authentic conversations that you just can't have in a church setting because it can be a little bit challenging at times to talk about my issues with porn or finances whatever may be as I may run into you at the restaurant 30 minutes after church right and it could just be a little awkward so we try to create a place where guys can do that authentically and naturally and it's just God's been blessing it so you know there's uh we're doing a movie uh that's

been done about mine and Lisa's life. And one of the things that's a pivotal point for us is, you know, Lisa had an abortion when she was 16 years old. And obviously that had a huge impact, not just on her, but on us because she had difficulty with having our children later after that because there's some physical issues from that. And so it's really made us appreciate just watching that again, how much we appreciate being a mom and being a dad. And we know what it's like for someone to have an unexpected pregnancy. Dads often get overlooked in the process. They are left feeling afraid and uncertain and wondering if they're ready to be a father. Questions start racing like, can I really do this? Can I be a good father? Preborn helps connect parents with support and resources

so they don't have to walk through an unexpected pregnancy alone. And that's why we love it. It's concerned about the unborn, yes, but it's also concerned about moms and dads because we're about keeping the family together. Today, you can help another father experience that same moment of hope. For just $28, you can sponsor an ultrasound through pre-born and help expectant parents see a future filled with life, compassion, and the hope of God's love. To donate, dial pound 250 and say baby. That's pound 250 baby. Or visit preborn.com slash unashamed. That's preborn.com slash unashamed. Sponsored by preborn. Well, I think there's always been a tension in church settings for the differences with male and female. And, you know, like for a long time, people just kind of tried to homogenize a church setting where you somehow balanced in the middle of masculinity and femininity.

But it tended to lean more towards the feminine. And so men felt uncomfortable there. It's just about seeing, not that I don't love to sing and all that. but I'm saying it just wasn't men doing men things. And I think it didn't attract men the ways things like this do and what you're doing does. Because you're talking about things you enjoy to it. One of the things that a lot of the country music guys

are like, well, we like to hunt and fish and what they would call have fun, just being men that don't include sinful stuff, just fun stuff. And they're like, can we do that and still be believers in Christ and followers and impact people for good? Absolutely. It's one of the, I think one of the areas that we fail men in is that in the church, in the recent history, is we've divorced salvation from a vocation. Yeah.

And I think that that's been a big, a big casualty for young men, particularly because young men do stuff, right? And so, like, the vocation, the vocational aspect of our salvation is that God's created you for a purpose. Yeah. And that purpose is to do stuff. Right. It's not just to sit around like floating spirits in the ethos. Like you actually have a body. He says, I want you to cultivate.

I want you to want to get married. Be fruitful, multiply. Subdu the earth, fill it up, have dominion. But we don't teach the vocation part anymore because it's like come and consume worship and have an emotional experience. Not that the emotional experience is bad, but when that, when you reduce everything to the emotional experience, then men don't have actually the thing that they're doing and building, and it's in our DNA, I think that's a casualty

where young men now are kind of aimlessly trying to figure out, what am I doing? Right. What am I supposed to do? Which explains what you just said explains the guy's popularity like Mike Rowe, dirty jobs. You know, I mean, he's very popular in culture. Why? Because he's a guy that tells us about working and doing stuff. And people are young men, especially like that.

Now he's got this whole thing he's doing where they raise. money for vocational training. And I mean, he's trying to say, look, this is what made our country so great. So he's not even doing things from a religious or spiritual aspect at all, but just he's speaking to men because of what you just said, that innate part of us, because we're made in the image of God. Yeah, what would you say that number one, maybe top one or two, maybe three? I bet we could guess them, but I'm just curious because you're specifically working with

men. What would you say are the top things that manifest as issues that people are. I'm dealing with this. What would be your top three that they were dealing with? Yeah, I mean, number one, probably porn, right? Yeah. That one surfaces all the time. They're really shame.

I'm just, you know, a lot of guys would just, and it's different levels of shame or feeling like their failures. They sometimes, they've let their families down either financially or whatever may be, but a lot of these things just dialed back to issues they had as a child or a kid in their early, early life,

and they never had anywhere to wrestle with it and wrestle through it. Yeah. Yeah, not porn's interesting. Because think about what, I would have said porn would have to be the number one. I mean, that's what I'm here. And I always know it too, by the way, because we talk about a lot of this podcast. Not a lot, but it comes up quite a bit.

And you probably can testify this too. I'll show up at church and I'll see somebody looking at me. And the way they're looking at me, I know they listen to the podcast. And not only do I know they're listening to the podcast, I know they got something that they need. It's like they're here because they haven't been there, but they've been. the spirit's been on about it. And I mean, I've had so many conversations in our church building on Sunday morning, someone's showing up with a young man that's like, hey, I've been addicted to this.

You'll see a lot of times her wife be over there looking all, like he just told her. And I think it's so interesting that that's the shame component, too, how one feeds the other, because the shame actually feeds into that. And then you get into the self-loathing, you get into the easy endorphin hit. Right. But think about what that is. is even like porn porn is you're bypassing

all of your vocation and you're going right to the end dopamine dopamine hypomeric hit of what you get from pornography without any of the skin and literally no skin in the game whatsoever and you're fast and then and then the shame heaps on us even

more and then you cycle it in that spiral and so I think that like to ignite a generation of young men so encourage guys like you and I think Joby does Joby write to forward for your book? He did, yes, sir. Jobi and, I mean, so many others that are doing work in this area, it's encouraging.

Yeah. And I love it that, like, you're an engineer, but you came to this idea that this is what guys calling you to do. And I think it's so good for our audience to hear because you don't have to go through the route of being full-time ministry in a church somewhere. In fact, sometimes that can hinder what you're trying to accomplish in this, because it's easier to just be a guy, like you said. I'm just a guy.

which I think is really good. I'd love that we brought up the idea about porn and shame because your whole thing, your whole brand is kind of based on this idea by a lion. And when I was reading your book, you talk about the lion's den, and it was really interesting when I first saw it in the book, I thought you were going to go to Daniel,

like surrounded by the lion's den. But you were talking about a den of lions, meaning like we're all together. Which I thought was really clever and good because that's that idea. But you think about this whole metaphor in the Bible. So you got the line of Judah, which is this reference to Christ, which there was, I wrote down a couple of these. Hosea 514 is a prophecy about that, about the line of Judah.

And then we see in Revelation 5 is kind of the most famous passage. And Zach, you've read it many times before about him being this line. And the idea of the lion and the lamb and how. Well, it's crazy because he said, yeah, because the elders like, or they're weeping. because they're like, oh, nobody can open the scroll. Nobody can open the scroll. And John, the revelator's like, we're hosed, man. That's right. And then no, no, no, no, don't cry.

He said, look at turn around and behold the lion from the tribe of Judah. Yeah. So you had that image in your mind when you read that of this fierce. I mean, I always think of Aslan, you know, Narnia. And he's like, is he safe? He's like, no, he's a lion, but he's good. He's good. And so, but when he turns, it's so interesting,

the nature of Christ, he turns and he sees the lamb. He says, look at the line of the tribe of Judah. But when he turns, he sees a land that had been slain that's standing victorious who was risen. Have you seen those 3D images where if you look at it one way, it's a line, and then you turn your head a little bit and it turns into the lamb? So somebody has captured that like in a 3D image, which is pretty. But I mean, if you think about that, though, that's like what a great teaching for men.

because you heard the phrase, toxic masculinity. So the answer is sacrificial love. It's fidelity. That's right. These are things we, like, it's integrity. That's why I want to make the point. And then I love about the book is,

because the other metaphor in the Bible, and by the way, it's even mentioned more. Proverbs 22, 13, in talking about lions as enemies, Zephani 3, 1 through 3. And then you get to the most famous one is 1 Peter 5.8, where he says, your enemy, the devil roams like a roaring lion. So in biblical imagery, we see this idea of the line of Judah and the sacrificial love

versus another lion who seeks to devour and lie and cheat. And then the text of John 1010, the thief who comes to steal, kill, and destroy. Everything he's about is a lie, is a fake. And when I think about pornography, that's the one thing that finally commits me as an old man to stop was because I realized I was just, this was a lie. Right. I had a real woman, you know, who wanted to have sex with me. That's real. Like, you know, that I go to bed with at night and I wake up in the morning and she's there.

And that's real and the relationship is good. And why would I trade that in for something that was so fake? Right. And it wasn't real. And these people would never know me. would never have anything to do with them. And so that picture, that idea of which, are you going to go with the true line or are you going to go with the fake line?

Because the fake thing is never going to lead you in anything good. But I just thought that image is such a powerful way. What it even says is he rolls around like a line. So to me, that just shows like, he's pretending. There you go. He's just pretending. That's good. You know, and like, no, I want the line of the tribe of Judah.

That's the one I'm aligning with. And then once I released that, he's got to get out the way. Because I don't know about you, I can dress up in a line, costume and going to the zoo. The real lion's going to beat me, you know? Or eat you. Or eat me. So I'm not going to muscle the real lion, and I'm just trying to get guys to see,

hey, we have that power in. But it's just, we keep pushing it down. It's time to let it out. That's good. Well, think about how lions are territorial. They have the territorial disputes, you know. I was just thinking about the Ruth Watches, it's popular when I was a kid, was Lion King.

And you got two lions, but one of them is just a pansy. Yeah. Scar. I mean, he's just like a Mufasa. That's the one. And his power over that other. One is deceptive. He's hiding in the shadows. He's, you know, but that's what he does. He's trying to steal the kingdom.

Same deal. Same deal. But the only antidote to him is another powerful lion that would take him out. Which was Mufasa until he kills him. And then Samba has to be raised up to be powerful enough to then come in. I think that's

what you're talking about with that with that den of lions. And when you have other guys with you, there's a lot of power in the multitude. So, Jay's, who does most of cooking at your house? Probably 75, Missy, 25% may. So, you know, a lot of people out there, different situations, different person doing the cooking.

A lot of times, you know, both people working, it becomes difficult sometimes to have the time to be able to cook. And that's where our good friends at home chef come in. home chef delivers fresh ingredients simple recipes straight to your door so you don't have to stress or overthink dinner so whether it's a 30-minute meal or an oven-ready tray or a quick microwavable option there's always something for whatever kind of day that you're having plus there's over 30 weekly meal options so you can mix it up find what you like and then fit your dietary needs and

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But it's kind of like we put the hurt ones in the middle. And when the hurt ones come in and they talk about the issue with the marriage or porn or whatever it may be, it's just amazing to see the rally around them. You don't mess with them. We're pouring out loving those guys. And it's just, it's been a really good response. And guys, they feel this genuineness is authentic. Yeah.

Which is community, right? I mean, it's what we talked about earlier. And you've got to have that. So you said at the first of the book that one of the things that Jobb told you early on that marked you. And I wanted you to comment on was do it. was do whatever he tells you to do. Yeah. You said those seven words.

Yeah. Why was that so impactful? And funny, well, I mean, the first time I met Jovey, that was, that was a parting words for me, from him. And he's just been a spiritual mentor for me. Well, he had him on the podcast. He's amazing. He's a great. He's a stud, right?

I mean, he's awesome. And so I sent him an email. I was like, hey, I think God's calling me to write a book, you know, to take my Bible study that he gave me when I first started the lion and put that into a format that could, you know, others could easily consume. And I said, man, I'm just a guy. I don't know. What am I can do? I know. I'm going to read my book.

And he said, email me back in a very jovy-s fashion. You're going to do it. You're going to get done. I think he even put a date. And he's like, and when you finish it, I'm on right to forward. So just let me know. I'm like, okay, God, that was a pretty stiff knowledge right there. So that was the motivation, you know, get it out there, get it done, and then have him to be behind.

I love what you say. You know, I need a sign. I need something. Sometimes it's just a brother telling you what. I need a two by four and Jokey was two by four. He didn't date attached to it. That's right. That's right.

Yeah, so I thought the book, so in the early part, you talk about finding two people in your life, and I thought this was really good. And very much resonated with me from my own personal experience because you said you've got to find a Paul, someone that can be that role in your life, and you've got to find a Timothy. Right.

Right? Because that's somebody that you imparting. impart to and you use probably the greatest discipleship you know story in the new testament in the book of acts especially and then first and second timothy by that relationship and the reason that resonates so much with me was because i didn't realize that the guy that mentored me uh my paul was the same guy that led dad to christ right uh bill smith who we talked about on the podcast and he's been dead for a while but i mean he's he invested 20 years into me and so he was my paul but the whole time it was happening,

I didn't really realize he was being my Paul. I like it because yours is so much more intentional. Mine was a little bit more accidental until he died. And then when his family asked me to speak at his funeral, this is a man that had impacted thousands and thousands of people, including my own dad, who then by proxy, you know, baptized and led so many other people. And so like my first thing was, oh my goodness.

Right. What am I going to say? Yeah. And I was talking about all the people because I was a part of a school that had 800 graduates and then way more people. And I thought every one of them would love to be the guy. They've asked me to be the guy. And in the moment, I was very like not only humble, but then also petrified, you know,

because how am I going to do this? And that was what God spoke to me on a cruise ship of all things because I was on a cruise working a cruise, least not were. And I'm sitting there the first day I got nothing. I mean, because in three days this cruise, Cruz is going to get back where it's supposed to go. And I got to do this funeral. And then the second day, I was praying about it, and it just hit me what you said.

I thought, what would Timothy say at Paul's funeral? And so that was my beginning point. And it got me back in the text. And then that became my sermon for him. And it was inspired of God. It was his. But that's when I realized that I was his Timothy. And he had prepared me for this moment.

and man, I had so many people come up to you and they were like, you know, I would have loved to be and I said, I know. And I was almost like apologetic because I was like, I know I got to do it and all you wanted to do it. But then they were inspired because they said, you know, I was his Timothy too.

And so because he had a lot of Timothy's. It wasn't just me. And so when you brought that up, that really touched me because, you know, it took me a while to figure that out. And I got a lot of Timothy's in my life too. But that's what God prepares us for that. Talk a little bit about that, kind of how you came to that,

and how that's, why it's important to do it. Yeah, I mean, that was the gap, right, for me, that I identified pretty quickly and early on. And I think as guys, we will tend to look out for the Timothies more. Yeah. I have a lot more Timbethys than I have Paul's. Yeah. But when you get to Paul relationships in your life, they're so invaluable.

And you just got to lean into them. And you got to actually listen to what they say. So my Paul is 87, one of them that speaks in my life. I literally, I planned my trip here. I went three more hours south just to have dinner with him last night because he lives in Georgia and coming like a... That's so good. This way.

But those, the great thing about having a Paul who has lived six, seven, eight decades, they have no filters, you know, and they'll just let you know. And they'll tell you exactly what you need to hear. And you don't want to hear it. And he's got a very good way of just saying, Chris, you're screwing up. Like, stop it. Like, no. That is a terrible decision.

and here's wine. And he's in everything. And I'll go pray about it. And I'm like, yeah, he was right again. You know, and I'll talk to my wife. I'm like, here's what Buck's told me again. She's like, well, I believe you better listen to him. I'm like, I know you're right, but it's not going to be easy.

So I just think having those relationships, but you got to look for them. They're not just going to fall in your lap. Sometimes they may, but look for the fruit or the spirit in the men's life that you would want speaking into you and then actually reach out to them. I mean, not a text message. I mean, actually have a conversation. I think that's where we're trying to get guys to do more of. It's so good.

And I love it. I love just the way you described it, that you do a three-hour out of your three-hour trip to do it. It takes effort to do any of this. You don't have relationships without effort. That's typically what we do. We want to wait until it comes to us. And I talked about this with Max and Antibald getting married.

They sought out discipleship. Yeah. And so discipleship is a two-way street. You have to seek it out. I mean, if you are a disciple of Christ, then you have to, like, that's the only. that's on you. It's like we can't be entitled to that.

And people don't know if you're, you have to invite someone into your life in that way too. That's right. Yeah, I think a lot of it too is absorbed. Like you were talking about like, I mean, we,

uh, just recently with this wedding, you have like these moments of life where things are like, you can see a long body of work over a period of time in a moment. Like you see that like funerals, births, weddings, these milestone moments.

The kids go to college. And it's funny because someone had given our family a compliment on how much we've impacted their life and and disciple them. And I'm listening thinking, we never really, I never thought of it like that. Right. I just, we were just doing life together. We were doing what we do. And they were along for the ride, which was Phil's, that's how he disciple people.

It's a bad. Right. You know, and one of my mentors was Mack Owen, who now runs Celebrate Recovery, was on our other podcast a while back. And I was reminded of the story, he's older than me. He's probably what, is he probably late 60s? Not quite 70. Yeah, so he's about 20 years older than me.

And he was someone that I looked up to. Bill Smith, same way, the guy you mentioned, your dad, and the first time I ever got to teach at White's Ferry Road, Al, you were someone like that for me. Al was kind of took me under his wing and said, I see something in you. I want you to teach a Bible class. And so I was teaching a Bible class, and they put me in the big one. They got a big Bible class. Right, right.

If you were, if they didn't really believe me, they put you in the small ones. That's right. It's kind of, it was kind of like the temple courts. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you were just, yeah, we're not sure. We'd put you way out there in the outer banks that you could see if you'd get a little better, maybe, and we could move you up a little closer to the most holy place.

So I got caught from the minor to the major. Yeah, that's a, which, by the way, this is exactly what I got. And I was out there in the minor leagues and so I got upgraded. I got a first Sunday school I taught was kids. It was a fourth and fifth grade. Well, you were like Jays. That's where he started. And then they called me up,

and they like, you know, put me in coach, right? And they called me into an adult class. And I'm like, well, I can't use Play-Doh with these guys, right? That's where that's where. Well, James told us on a reason. By guess he just did the same thing for five straight years. I said, well, that's why it took us so long to get out of the minors, Jay's. Well, when I got caught up to the big leagues, it's about three, 400 people in that room.

And I was very intimidated. It was the big class. And I remember what I. preached on. I actually preached on the Revelation passage, and I had this whole thing about the line and the land. I had like, I had about 12 lines that were just like, like, make you want to run through a brick or all kind of stuff. And so at the end of the, I mean, the, the class, like, they stood up and gave me a stand in donation. There you go. And I'm thinking, boys, I had finally, I'm going to teach these. I didn't just hit a home run. I had a grand

I'm like, we got this thing on lockdown. Now they're going to come to me and probably, now they see what I can offer. Right. You know, now they'll get it. You know, they didn't realize the gifting I had. And I'm thinking, I'm looking at Mack Owen and Bill, and they're in the audience. And I'm just like the whole, I can feel the pride in me swelling up. And, you know, if you preach a really good sermon or, like, well, you always have people that are, like, want to talk to you afterwards.

And that's one of the ways you can judge if you did a great job. If they line up. They lined up. So, hey, they lined up, son. I guess it was about fourth in line. Oh, Mac. And I said, boy, when your mentor's lining up, to tell you, you did a good job,

and you know you nailed it. And it's just one after another, man, that was awesome. And then Matt gets up there and he goes, and I'm just waiting for that affirmation. He said, hey, Zach, two things. When you preach a good sermon, he said, first thing you do is you walk toward the back. The second thing you do is you go out the back door.

don't wait around for the compliments and walks off. That's the one year of time, that's my buck. That's my buck. That's right. That's right. That's it. That's it.

That's sat with me and I felt so small in that moment. But it's because I'd let my head get so big so quick. And it was just like, this ain't about you, man. That's right. But at 25 years old,

I mean, I'm, I may have talent and ability, but I mean, I'm arrogant. I'm prideful. I think it's about me. And this older man he's been kicked in the face by a horse a few times. It's like, ain't about you. It took me about 10 years in to realize that,

and I mentioned this the last time I preached, actually, a couple weeks ago, that you never look back. You know, last Sunday may have been the worst sermon I ever preached or the best one I ever preached, but every week has a Sunday in it. And I just got to do my job and do the next one. That's it. And so I always realized that about 10 years in.

So I had the same type things. Mine was Bill Smith, who the first time came up to me. And I mean, it was funny. it just, man, the spirit was moving. The jokes were landing. The audience was there. The scripture was perfect. And he comes up and he had written a couple of notes.

And Bill walks up to him. And I'm like you, I'm thinking, oh, boy. I knew it was good. But like Smith took notes. And he comes up, he says, it's not had went. It's had gone. You said that four times. And he had them all written down.

And I was like, I was like one of those things on the side of the road and I just like deflated into the floor because I was like... That generation, that I think that they enjoy trolling a little bit. Boys, you ain't going to come up and hear. Because they knew we were gifted. They knew we had talent.

They knew all that was there. But they also knew we would be our own worst enemy. And so they just put the pen and the balloon to make sure we knew it wasn't about you. And Mack built my first, pulpit at our church, the same act that told Zach that. And unbeknown, it's a beautiful piece of, he's a carpenter. Yeah.

Beautiful piece of wood. And from the front, it just is a cross and has the gospel symbols on it. It's beautiful. But on the back, the cross, the midbeam is hiding the pulpit part that you preach from. So on the back part of that cross, the first time I walked around to preach, it said, it's not about you, carved in it. And I was like, there's my message. There you know.

Dave, do you ever read the book or heard of the book? the coddling of the American mind. The guy, we had him on our podcast. Jonathan Haidt, he wrote John Axis generation. This is what young men have been coddled. Yeah. And so like where are you?

You got to your self-esteem. We got to build you up. We can't tell you, correct you or rebuke you or everything in the Bible says you're supposed to be. That's right. We need a strong man to be in there. You get your face a little bit. So we're running out of time. I want to at least give people the, so you have.

have seven discipleship sections from the book. Because I'm a note taker. So when I read your book, I took notes. How to Protect the Mind, How to Embrace Stewardship, how to Cultivate Marriage, which I loved it that you bridge those two together by talking about lining with your spouse, which is so good. So I'm just giving the skeleton of the book. How to tune our bodies, how to pursue careers, how to raise godly children,

and then the last one was how to embrace spiritual leadership. And it's, you know, can I lead, will I lead, who do I lead? So, I mean, I thought it's just all very well done. And I thought, I love the way you started because to me that's at the beginning point, how to protect the mind, right? Because all the things you mentioned earlier that are kind of some of the top men issues seems to start with the mind, right, every time. So is that why you started that?

Yeah, we take ourselves out the game. Yeah. And we put ourselves on a bench in a second. And then we advocate our responsibility or, from a spiritual standpoint, since you guys are past, like, it's a pastor's job to spiritually leave my family. I'm like, no, boy, you know, that's not their job. Like, you're going to see them an hour. Maybe if you're a super Christian, you see them two hours a week.

Like, that's it. Like, no, you have to step up and own this. And doesn't mean you have to go to a seminary or spend years and years and getting all these degrees. Just take what he's given you and just step into the role that he's put you in because he's handpicked you to be to be. so I can only leave, I have to leave my family, and I just try to help guys see that more and more. And once you tell it to them in that way,

I've had so many lightball moments for these guys, like, oh, yeah, I can do that. Like, that's right, small steps. And I like the way you structure the book, because with everything you're writing about and teaching, in essence, you have action steps, you have a lot of engagement and involvement in the book. So people can kind of chart their growth, right? as they're working through some of these steps.

That's right. And it's meant to be done together. It reads like an engineer wrote it. Yeah. Because you're... Can't get away from that. I know. You have a system.

You've got some gears in there? That's right. That's right. That's right. Some years. But I, because I knew, I knew you and I knew your background. So I was like, yep, he wrote this out. Like this, if you were putting something together, the steps, right?

It's all about the process. It's process, right? It really is. Yeah, which is really good. So what was the hardest section for you? like maybe one, because you said you learned a lot from your failures. Yeah. What was the one chapter in here, the one section that was probably the hardest for you to live

early, but that you now feel like you've grown to? The marriage one. Yeah. I mean, the marriage one for me, I mean, I had a failed marriage, right? Right. And things happened there. But then also I'm writing, you know, chapters on how to pray with your wife and I do all the one-on-one dates and all this stuff.

And I'm sitting here and I did an audit. And I'm like, I really suck at this. Like, I've really. written plans. I've preached sermons on how to pray with your wife and then it would go a week or two, I'm like, I haven't prayed with Becca. Like, what is wrong with me? I have that one seven moments. I just like,

I kind of get this. So those are ones because you feel like a hypocrite. You know, like I'm writing this. I'm trying to show you this and then outside these areas that I still falls. But I think the authenticity is what guys appreciate because I don't have all this stuff figured out. God showed me

but I'm still working through a lot of it. That's good. I'm just a guy. Yeah, that authenticity. is a key factor. They've done a lot of studies recently on people coming back to church. Right. And one thing that people are looking for

is authenticity. The thing about authenticity, though, is you can't manufacture it. Right, right. And so it's kind of like, well, how do I manufacture authenticity? And because I've thought about this a lot. And I think about, like,

our little church here is just exploded. And people, it's just so real, so authentic. What do we, and how do we, and then every time we've tried to box that in, and every time we've tried to like professionalize it or or like systematize it. It's like it like evaporates. Yeah.

And I think that that is what we were talking about the last podcast about the Holy Spirit's role. Yeah. The Holy Spirit is the one who actually gives you the authenticity. You don't manufacture these things in your own spirit. Like it's his spirit, it's his fruit. And that and it pops up and it's real. And so the process, as you mentioned, or the patterns that you made, like the

process. That's like what AA is. That's what CR is. CR is a process. They say trust the process. What they mean is, these are the spiritual disciplines that actually yield, these rhythms actually draw, this is how Christ, you go through these rhythms of discipleship, these rhythms of movement, and then the Holy Spirit yields this in your life. It says yield, not yours. Absolutely. And you use that Romans 12, 1 and 2, there early in the book, is that idea of the transforming, of your mind and how that happens through the Holy Spirit. So in our last time here, so it's the line within.us. That's like gets you to all your information.

That's all the information. And then find out about the podcast there as well. And then the Bible app. Yeah, tell about the Bible app. So the Bible app, you know, right after the episode with you, I got connected with those guys. And it's funny, they reached out to him. And they're like, you write for men.

I'm like, yes, I do. They're like, we have, I think it was like less than 4% or maybe less than 2% of the content. The thing by the Bible, they just had a billion downloads of the app. Sadie was there. It was awesome. But they have almost nothing for men. And they said, well, how much can you write? And I'm like, that's a pretty loaded question. I'll try to write two a month. So that's what I did. And then God gave me the I'm just a guy plan. This is a little five-day plan. And I walk through, you know, feeling defeated or I'm not enough. Or who am I? I start off with who am I? Because I tell the story at Moses and how you're like,

I can't do this, right? I just walked through that and I released it and it just went gangbusters and I'm like got something here all right lord what do you want more of that so now I go to my guys I'm like what are the things that you're wrestling with and saying you know I'm just a guy battling pornography or fighting for my marriage or I've won this I'm just a guy who needs a break I mean I got a lot of guys who said amen on that one and I just take that and now it's just a series so good so you're writing it basically on the needs of the people you're working exactly but it's all reflective to the X-Point. It's just stories. I'm not coming from a command style. It's just like, here's what

it's impacted me. If it's useful to you. And guys, I think they're just drawn to that authentic, you know, that authentic type of style of writing. I love it. So good. So Bible app, check them out there. Also, here's the book, Unleashing the Line Within. Great read. And great as a gift to somebody that you're, you know, really needs to learn about discipleship and what it is to be a man of God. So, man, Chris, thanks for making the run over. The six-hour. we're out of the way of this has been great and hopefully we'll be on right now media soon where you just started yeah you tell me about that it's going to be exciting lisa and i did some marriage stuff for them last year a great organization as well so look for chris on that uh thank you brother for what you're

doing for the kingdom awesome see you next time thanks for listening to the unashamed podcast help us out by leaving a rating and review on apple podcast and don't miss an episode by subscribing on youtube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode Thank you.