Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1354 | Phil Captured Rome’s Fall in One Perfectly-Timed Movie Blooper at the Colosseum

Episode Date: June 12, 2026

Phil’s perfectly timed movie blooper at the Colosseum gives the guys a hilarious opening to a much bigger point: empires rise, empires fall, but Christ’s kingdom never shakes. Al, Zach, John Luke, and Christian connect ancient Rome’s paganism to modern America’s idols, from power and politics to screens and the new “religions” people build around personal freedom. Through Rome’s ruins, modern America’s chaos, and the steady faith of the early church, the guys point back to the kingdom of God as the only power that survives every age. In this episode: Daniel 7; Hebrews 12; Daniel 2; 1 John; 2 John; 3 John; Joshua 24, verse 15; 1 Thessalonians; Matthew 5. Today’s conversation is about Lesson 9 of Ancient Christianity taught by visiting Hillsdale Professor of History Kenneth Calvert. Take the course with us at no cost to you! Sign up at http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/. More about Ancient Christianity: Christ entered the world during the reign of Caesar Augustus. The tensions between Christianity and the Roman Empire shaped the daily practice of the Christian faith and led many Romans to distrust and persecute the early Christians. But Christianity also benefitted from the Roman world. And when Rome collapsed in the West, Christianity provided the hope for preserving civilization. In this free, eleven-lecture course, Professor Kenneth Calvert will explore: How the Jewish, Greek, and Roman cultures all contributed to preparing the world to hear the Gospel. Why many Romans distrusted and persecuted the early Christians. The inspiring stories of Christ, His apostles, and faithful ones throughout the first four centuries of Christianity. The arguments of key early Christian apologists—Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin, Athanasius, and more—who defended and defined the Christian faith amidst the animosity of the Roman world. The conversion of Constantine and how he brought stability to Rome, and how the rivalry between his sons almost returned Rome to paganism. How Augustine’s writings helped preserve the message of Christianity during the collapse of the Roman Empire in the West. You will discover the uncertainties, trials, and triumphs of the earliest Christians as they confronted controversies within the faith and persecutions from outside it. Join us today to discover the improbable and miraculous story of Christianity. Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters 00:00 The Power & Ruins of the Roman Empire 04:44 Phil’s “Torchbearer” Blooper at the Colosseum 11:05 Constantine Changes the Future of Christianity 16:05 Christians Shouldn’t Downplay the Miraculous 20:40 Constantine’s Vision and the Sign on the Shields 24:10 When Church and Politics Get Tangled Together 28:00 The Council of Nicaea and the Trinity 33:45 Why Doctrine Still Matters 37:20 Constantine, Paganism & Religious Freedom 41:05 The Bible Wasn’t Invented by a Committee 44:15 Ancient Rome Looks Like America Today 48:00 The Meek Inherit the Earth — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. We're doing our Unashamed with Hillsdale, ancient Christianity. We're back, back on track after we took a little bit of a detour to talk about colonial America. You guys can take these courses for free with us at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. We're on lecture number eight, I believe. Is that correct? Did I get that right? Nine. Nine. You were so close. You just went out. You know what? You guys were taking the lecture and learning about ancient Christianity while I was in the birthplace of where a lot of this takes place. So me and Jill actually went to Rome, just got back. We were in Rome up to Umbria, not North Umbria, which is in England, which was mentioned in one of the courses that we're going to talk about over the next couple weeks. But yeah, I'm back. So pretty much an expert on all things Roman Empire. So whatever y'all need, I'm here. Zach, quick question. So when Constantine took over, what percentage of Rome spread to Christianity? What percentage of Christianity spread to Rome through Rome?

I like the copying to try to give yourself another few seconds to it. Did I not word it correctly? I can't answer questions that aren't worded correctly. Sorry, that went down the wrong pipe. We'll get there. We'll get there, Christian. We will get there. I don't want to spoil a surprise.

as chat, the GVT gives me the answer. He's just giving me about three, two. My hourglass. The answer is 40%. That's what I was about to say. You didn't give me a chance to clear my throats, huh?

Oh, we, yeah, we were in the heart of the Roman Empire. Al, we, so we went to a lot of the same places we went when we were there. And it was pretty awesome. We stayed right down, the first night we stayed right downtown in, like the kind of the historical district. And then we drove up about three hours north of Rome to a place called Umbria, which is on the border of Tuscany and Umbria. And then we stayed there for a few days.

And actually one day we went out and got to see Assisi, which is where St. Francis was, I think that's where he's buried. And there's a whole chapel there, a huge cathedral. The whole city's amazing. But yeah, so we kind of did the time. tour, but it is, it's impressive. Even in its ruins, the Roman Empire is impressive. The Colossim, I mean, it's, I mean, it's, I'm just like, pallid.

I mean, the power of the Roman Empire, when you try to imagine it in its heyday, and you try to go back 2,000 years to imagine it. I mean, this was a world power, like the world probably has never seen since. I don't know, I don't even know if the United States rivals it. No, and what, what surprised me was just over the scope. of our last three lectures, which we'll be talking about for the next two or three podcast, was the longevity.

I knew, I thought I knew when the Roman Empire ended. I didn't realize that the eastern half had lasted so much longer. I mean, we're talking about almost 1,700 years, you know, of power. And so when I just didn't realize the scope was that broad, you know, for the Roman Empire. And so it does, Zach, it's, In fact, I wanted to mention, because I don't think I've mentioned it on the Hillsdale podcast, but it made me think a lot about the movie that Zach co-wrote and helped produce,

which was called Torch Bearer. We've mentioned it every once in a while, but it's such a good movie that you should check out. You still find it, I think, on Amazon Prime to watch. Because a big piece of that is the Greek Empire and the Roman Empire, along with the French Revolution and some other things, but about the idea of civilizations and rise and fall, and the idea that's brought up much in the lectures about the kingdom of God being the standing power over these, you know, different civilizations.

And so, and when there's some great footage in there of just what you were discussing, Zach, of, you know, getting to watch and see some of the amazing feats that the Romans pulled off, which was pretty amazing. sure if this made it in the film or not, but I know it was a blooper that we got. And Phil was standing out in front of the Coliseum. And he was talking about how empires rise and empires fall. And you're obviously like you have the Roman Empire behind him in the scene, you know, kind of the epicenter of the of their system, which I would say the Roman Coliseum was kind of like, this was like the picture of greatness and power and, and exhibition of just, I mean,

whatever you want. I mean, it's right there. And he was, and Phil was talking about, you know, that these empires, they all rise and they all fall.

And do you remember this out? Somebody was walking like in the background. And as soon as he said the word fall, the person was, I think on a bike and they just like fell over. And it's like in the scene. In the scenes in the background. And we caught it later.

I'm not sure if that's in the, it may have made it. I don't remember. It was not a stunt double. It was real. If you look closely, see, it was Zach. I didn't even see it happen.

Then we were back in the editing bay and we were looking at it. Oh, look at this. Wow. When he says this, but a lot of what we have taught on the Unashamed podcast, I mean, outside of the Hillside episodes, has been centered on that we do believe that the kingdom of God is here.

And the kingdom of God is now. It is not yet fully realized or consummated, you know, but it is here. And a lot of our teaching, you don't know, a lot of the way we read the Bible, interpret the Bible through that lens is that God establishes the kingdom and gave Jesus when he gave Jesus all authority on heaven and earth. Daniel, chapter 7, when Jesus appears before the ancient of days, when the son of man appears before the ancient of days, he was given a kingdom. You got the statue in Daniel's dream. and you got the Greeks, the Medo-Persians, the four kingdoms.

And then the last one was that Roman Empire. And then that stone that was not made by human hands is carved out of the mountain. It rolls down and it crushes the Roman Empire, that other kingdom. And in those days, a kingdom will be set up that can't be shaken nor destroyed. And so you go to the New Testament, you read the Hebrews 12. And we're told that we belong to a kingdom now that cannot be shaken nor destroyed. And so I think that this ancient Christianity course has been so good for me because it gives a historical context of exactly how, not exactly, but how did God orchestrate this whole thing that we're a part of and how he interwove the story of Christ and the church in human history. and he does use these world superpowers to bring it about,

but it is encouraging to me to think, well, you're in the heyday of here, right, Constantine, you know, it comes on the scene, which,

by the way, just to recap, we're coming out of a great persecution, or coming out of a time when the church wasn't, didn't have a public voice, really. I mean, you had to hide in holes and run around and,

and under the fear of persecution, death and, the Roman Empire trying to stamp out Christianity. Then now you have, have a new guy come into play and you really start to see this thing start to blossom out into the whole world and uh and now we're looking at it 2,000 years later with hindsight 2020 and we're like yeah I think that we actually do belong to a kingdom that can't be shaken or destroyed yeah and it's interesting because obviously we spend so much time you know in the first hundred years of Christianity's

birth because you know that's our biblical narrative that we get to follow and so we spend all all that time and then tying it into all the Old Testament history. But I've loved the course because that next 100 year to get us to hear the 300 gap are things I didn't really think about and know. I mean, you read a little bit of excerpts from some of the early church leaders, but I didn't understand the depth and level of persecution, the sort of battle with paganism that's going on during this era about who will win. And to me, then we get to this to 300 AD.

And it is a turning point in terms of Christianity's like now full flourishment. And it's kind of a little bit of a dichotomy with me because when I was early in ministry, I spent a lot of time. We were in a, the church kind of has waves, you know, that come along and you kind of catch the wave. You know, camping is one thing you're involved in. Or when I was young, it was bus ministry. Everything was about going to pick people up in buses. and all churches had a bunch of buses on their party.

It was just like everybody was all of a sudden it was like, everybody's got to have a bus or a fleet of buses. And we had ours and ours were pink. You know, we were known all over town. And so, and then all of a sudden it was just like, that was gone. That wasn't a thing anymore. But with me, it was small groups. And so we were, it was kind of new, you know, at least our tribe.

And so we were doing small groups. And so, you know, everything we had to do here because of Bill Smith, we had to study it out, you know, to find that make sure we were doing this the right way. And obviously small groups are all over the New Testament because they were just this group that was just flaring up and they weren't really recognized anymore. And so I view Constantine a lot differently.

Constantine was more in a study perspective. It was like, well, he consolidated the church into like this almost state-led situation. And now of a sudden people didn't have to meet in holes in the ground like he just mentions that. So I almost view Constantine, as a negative from that early study because it was like he took us away from that kind of, you know, flash, you know, flare Christianity. But it really wasn't. I mean, I look now, looking back again

and studying this more in totality and see that this was a good thing. This held stability for thousands of years when there was so much chaos in the world. I mean, the church and the consolidation of having a group of people was not a bad thing, you know. So it's really good. It's really, giving me a new insight into what he accomplished. Constantine was, I think, great for Christian. I mean, I have a different view of him after this course than I did in the old days because I was looking at it more like it took something away from the nature of the early church, but it didn't really. I mean, you still had groups. You still had a lot of things. I think I just look at it from the perspective of, yeah, like you said, 300 AD, you think about all the persecution, you think

about even in the time of Jesus, you know, like just the Roman Empire, how heinous they were towards Christians. Like, if you were to told somebody a couple hundred years ago that the emperor of Rome was going to be a Christian and implement these reforms, I don't think they would have believed you. No way. You know. Right. That's something. You think about, you know, Marcus Aurelius, all these people that did all these crazy things. And it's like... Or Nero. Yeah. Nero, yeah. The person that's leading Rome is a Christian. Like, that had this vision before battle. It's... It's actually a pretty crazy story.

I did not know that before studying, before learning about these lectures. What did you all think about the Constantine's conversion? I mean, that's, yeah, we want to, and I think it was legitimate conversion.

Yeah, and that's one of the things the professor says as well, or something real was going on, right? But he has these, like, miraculous visions of Christ and kind of, the Christian imagery,

which bring him out of kind of this pagan world into Christianity. I mean, I don't know what you guys, if y'all had any thoughts on his actual conversion experience. Didn't he say that Constantine had had visions of other gods before? He briefly mentioned that. It's fairly common to have these experiences, which I think that a lot of times,

like we want to downplay the miraculous or downplay, downplay the supernatural on both sides, right? But I mean, there are, I mean, I believe a lot of this stuff was real encounters with real entities. You know what I mean? Well, it's all over scripture, so of course it has to be. Like all of our early Jewish historical figures had multiple, you know, sightings and visions and dreams and all kinds of stuff.

And so, yeah, it's kind of funny. We consider ourselves almost like an age of reason now or that stuff would never happen. And you're like, well, I mean, why would it stop? I mean, I understand we have, you know, scripture that's been carried along. But at the same time, God is still active. And even the little Easter eggs, all of the New Testament, are that he's still, why would he say, why would the Hebrew writer say,

be careful when you entertain strangers? Because they might be angels. Well, why would he say that in the first century if that's not still possible today? So I think we've definitely downplayed it, you know, with the idea, like somehow we're too rational for this to happen. But yeah, I thought about the Larry Bowles situation when he was in Athens.

And people are coming. from escaping out of Syria and all these Islamic nations being chased out mostly by other Muslims because it was wars and all these things happening. And they're having, they're coming in and saying, we've had visions of this person we don't recognize. And it sounds like people, what you're talking about with Jesus Christ, but, I mean, there was just one after the other having these visions. And they're like, can you tell us about this person?

Because we don't know. And I'm like, well, yeah, that's what we're here for. And so, I mean, is it real? I mean, I say so. And there's multiple people saying the same thing and being led to Christ. So, you know, yes, I think that it is reality. It is hard sometimes, obviously, to talk about because I talk to a lot of people say, well, I talk to God. He told me this.

And God told me this. And you're like, well, look, there could be, you know, there are other voices. I mean, you got God. You got the evil one. You got your own voice. So, you know, you've got to try to reason that out. But to try to just discount it, you know, I'm. I wouldn't do.

One should sign up and take the courses with us for free at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. And I think on the miraculous, that it seems like we want to be, like, reasonable and, like, scientific, and that's kind of, like, the way that we, like, seem professional and smart is, like, we got the science, we got the data.

But when it comes to miraculous, it comes to God and anything spiritual, it's supernatural meaning outside the realm of science. Yeah. Like there's a reason, like you could collect data points on everyone who's had an experience

with something supernatural and I would imagine if someone did that and I'm sure someone has. It's going to be a lot of people over the entire history of humanity have had these like visions and signs or met these like things

that they think or like some kind of supernatural thing. and then you know you think but like why hasn't no one why hasn't anyone like gotten a video why isn't it like predictable or why you know why isn't like follow the constraints of like the scientific method well it's because it's not it's supernatural like science only tells us what's natural supernatural is all is outside of that and when you have these spiritual entities that can come in and out of existence, essentially, like,

it's not something that really science could tell us. Right. And it doesn't mean believing in it is unreasonable. It's reasonable believe something if, you know,

believe in a version of it if a lot of people say it, um, say that they saw it. Uh, and so like in this case, that's what I was thinking about. He said that he had a vision of Apollo.

I think it was Apollo. He said, Kosting had in his younger days. And then he had this vision later of the cross that, you know, convinced him that Christ was their patron deity. And I was thinking, like, we don't really know from history, like, what he actually saw, but it seems clear that he did see something. Like, was it Apollo he saw the first time?

Or was it an angel that was trying to prep him for this later conversion? You know? Or was it, you know, a demon trying to. to steer them a different direction. You know, was it some whatever entity was playing as Apollo at that time? You know, like, we don't really know what it is, but it seems like there was a lot of spiritual

something going on around Constantine until Christ eventually won him over. Yeah. Well, the cool thing about the story was that after he had the vision, he actually had the sign painted on all the shields. I think that's the cool thing about, like, I feel like that's the idea

of faith in action. You have this vision, you have this revelation, this encounter, but then you actually do something about it. It wasn't this like ethereal thing that kind of just faded. It was no, he actually put the sign on the shields. And then after the victory, because the sign was by the sign we conquer. And then after the victory, that was kind of when he firmly established that Jesus was yeah, the patron divinity. But isn't that the story of, like that sign, isn't that still on like the flags or isn't that still on something in that part of the world? Is this the, what are they called, Keiro?

Cairo. Cairo, which was a, it was, which meant Christ, I think, was the ideas that one, the one you're talking about. I'm not sure. I thought I've heard this story before about, like, it's still, like, that's still relevant or prevalent, or maybe relevant, whatever word I'm trying to say. Greek letters for,

Greek word for Christos. Yeah. Yeah. But I think they still use that today. I think. I'm not sure. But I love the idea as I was about because later we're going to talk about the importance of the incarnation and how important it is. And I like that out of this vision, it was Christ, which is Messiah, which is the promised incarnation from ancient, from Old Testament and everything prior.

I love that this even early on was right at the forefront, this idea about who Jesus is, because that becomes the foundation of everything. And it still is the foundation of everything and who we are. And so I love that that was the result of the vision. And then, of course, victory came as a result as well because he winds up being the sole emperor of the whole thing as a Christian. And they didn't mention it in the course, but I had read somewhere else that he had baptized his whole army, almost kind of like a mass. Have you heard that?

Probably a force baptization. Yeah, I think it was. So I was like, I'm not sure I was on board with that. That's like, but the idea was, oh, yeah, if we're going to fight, we're going to. Well, I mean, it's not a per. I mean, you can't look at this. I was a perfect thing. No, that's just, I mean, even to think about like, okay, we're going to paint the cross on.

our shields and then we're going to go conquer the land. I mean, what if we did that today? We're going to paint the, we're going to, on our bullets and our bombs, are going to put Jesus Christ, and we're going to bomb. It's like, that's not how the kingdom advances. But God does use all of these things, right? And so he uses our flawed theology, our flawed allegiances to nation states, where we supersede our allegiance to the nation state, you know,

it instead of the kingdom of God being first, nothing wrong with being a part of a nation, but there is something wrong when that becomes your primary allegiance. Well, and it rubs against, he mentions at one time about, I think it was at the end of all the lectures about this kind of the word we use now is church and state. And it does get, because as we go through this process of, and again, we're at the beginning point here at 300, but as we get into the later times where the politics and the church, and the church leadership are so intertwined that God gets left out a lot because of powerful people who take over and then try to subvert. And I mean, we see a lot of mess. But that always

happens. It always happens. But you can't separate politics from religion either. You can't commit. Then the reason why is because I think Kuyper said this, that there's not one square inch of the entire universe that the sovereign Lord does not cry mine. Yeah. Which would include our politics. And so I don't like the idea. And I felt there's been a lot of pressure like, oh, the church can't speak into politics, which is funny because a lot of times of people that are saying that are speaking in the politics, just from a different perspective. But I think the way I view kind of the emergence here, this is like an evolution of the kingdom. This is like things like these things are happening, right? Like orthodoxy is coming into play because at

the beginning of Christianity, I mean, you got however many guys in an upper a room. I mean, it is when Jesus walks through, when Jesus walks in the room, he's like, okay, see the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the moment, it's very easy to kind of contain, there's no, like, need for, like, um, there's no, like, heresies popping up. I mean, you got just a few people in a room. Um, the problem is, it's not a problem. It's just the way it worked is that once they moved out of that room and the kingdom of God begins to, the church begins to explode. The book of Acts happens,

the day of Pentecost is key to the whole thing. And then the stoning of Stephen was kind of a really significant moment. And the church scatters at that moment after Stephen was martyred. Now you have, you know, 300 and something years later, you actually have the kingdom has taken hold all over the place. And so folks have come in and they've spied on the freedoms of God's people. and heresies begin to emerge. And so Constantine, I think, is one of his major contributions.

You mentioned the incarnation, which actually happens. That's a key doctrine, right, that needs to be anchored in. But also just the idea of Christ divinity. Because what Aryan, which is one of the first heresies that is the reason why they met at the Council of Nicaia, was to address this heresy that had popped up, which was, you know, the historical church. which is always believed that the father, the son, and the spirit are of the same substance. Now, they're not the same person, but they're of the same substance. So this is like Trinity 101, that the father is not the son.

The son is not the father, but both the father and the son are God and the spirit as well. They're all the substance of God. And that's why we say that there are three persons, three distinct persons, but one being, one substance. And what Aryan was, and he had quite the movement, was to say, no, no, no, the son's actually not the same substance as the father. I mean, for all intents and purposes, he could have been created. I mean, the father is God. And then the other, you know, so it was a total disruption of who God is. And it has really profound consequences if you were able to pull it off.

And so the first counsel that meets here with Constantine, is he's and he didn't I mean I didn't realize this but he didn't really have a dog in the fight he's kind of like I just want you all to get along everybody gets along y'all need to get in the room you don't need to work this out because he's a new christian so he probably doesn't have the historical background he had been he doesn't he's y'all go work this out so that's why they came together to work that's what they came together to work out you need to you guys need to come up with a definition and you need to figure this out because you can't have all this division going around. And so I think that was a key role for Constantine was establishing in

history. What does the church really teach and has taught historically? And how do we really understand the nature of God? How do we understand? You make a good point that hadn't thought about that really probably took a new Christian with a wide-eyed view to get to this point. because, you know, if you get so easily caught up into doctrinal differences in the fights, and that's what's happened here over the course of now over 100 years with these little schisms and splinters of people. And he's coming in looking at it fresh, like, why are we fighting about that? I mean, like, there's way more we're in common about than not.

And it makes me think a lot of times what Lisa would say that she didn't grow up in the same background we would have and we'd be into some church thing or whatever. and she was like, oh, I'm glad I didn't grow up in this background. And it was like, because she was like, this is stupid. You know, what we're arguing about seems dumb to me. And it would if you just became a brand new Christian and just gave your life to Christ and just had this vision of the beauty of Christianity and you're like, but we're arguing about was it, was he really a man?

Did he, was he had the same substances, you know, the things they were splintering over. And so I love the idea that the freshness a lot of times is what brings unity back in, you know, and the longer we kind of stay in the church-speak argument, the further way we get from what's most important. Yeah. The thing I like about Constantine is that he's like so misinformed, but he's very excited and enthusiastic. Like, it's a great way to look at it. Because like he, in a new Christian, it's not like he was going to church and learning the doctrines and thought this religion makes the most sense. Like, he was a pagan who had a vision. He was a vegan who had a and was then used that vision of Christos of the sign and the cross went and conquered a area,

killed tons of people, and was like, yep, Christ is real. He's my God. He didn't know literally nothing. Nothing about Christianity. I mean, I'm sure he knew stuff from his studies or whatever, but it's not like he raised himself into Christianity. It was actually a supernatural vision. Well, so then he's like, well, we, like, what is it? What does it mean to be a Christian? And he sees all these different kind of groups and people and is like, okay, I want to, I want to be a Christian. I want to help Christianity here.

But like you church fathers, you theologians, like, y'all got to figure it out. Like, give us a definition so that I can actually walk in my faith and I can help you. Yeah, I think that that's a good point. because I've thought about this quite a bit even in discussions with people, and sometimes people ask me the question, can you be a Christian and not be Trinitarian? And, you know, I would say that you can have a, yeah, you can not understand the Trinity and just see Christ and just like, I don't understand all. Because that's a, it's a complex doctrine in a lot of ways. And so you look, I'm like, I know I'm a sinner. It's like that Alastra bag.

I don't know if you've seen that clip that he has circulated on the internet with him. And he's talking about when he gets, you know, this, they get to the pearly gates. It tells the story of this guy. And the thief on the cross. And he gets up there, it's a thief on the cross. And he's like, okay, why should I let you in? Did you understand the doctrine of the Trinity?

Did you understand the doctrine of justification by grace, faith alone? And the guy's like, I don't know what you're talking about. And he just keeps asking these doctrinal questions. And the guy's like, look, all I, know is is that the guy in the middle cross he told me to come here and that's it that's like that's the basis of salvation but i'm glad you brought that up because you mentioned about the upper room a minute ago and on one of our previous podcast jace was talking at the moment you're just mentioned that and it's such a beautiful picture right because he just looks at him as like they're both

about to die and so if you were just watching this and he says today you're going to be with me in And Jason was talking about from a paradise in a heaven context. But I love what you just said. If you're just watching that, you're like, here's two guys being executed on a cross. And one's looking out with the other one. And he says, I mean, you don't deserve to be here. I do. You know, can I go with you?

And he's like, yeah, today you're going to go with me. If you were just looking at that, you'd say, these are two crazy guys. You know, this is going to be the savior of the world. This is the Messiah. This is the Christ. I mean, and yet, it was. it was because but the but the prerequisite though for him was simply okay I accept that's it that now I will say this though to to to not to not be trinitarian is not Christian right it's not that's not

that's not that's not what the Bible teaches and I would say that it is a it is a serious heresy that has very serious consequences and so when I when I was going through this course I was thinking it's like it's so funny it's like all the same players are still here. Like the pagans are, I mean, the paganism is still here. We just call it modernity or we call it postmodernist or we call them, you know, um, moral relative. The stuff you're doing with out there, right? A lot. Oh, it's just saying it's all, that's all, that's the same paganism. It's a, so you think, well, well, we, we tend to look back at history and we look at their paganism. We say, well, how would you, how could you worship a statue?

I mean, like how unsophisticated that you would work. worship something that you carved. But yet at the same time, we're completely captivated by images on a screen. Like what I think about another generation is going to look back 2,000 years at us, if the Lord doesn't come back by then. And they're going to look at the things that we may not call it worship, but that's what it is. Like to be captivated, to behold something, to be completely consumed by something,

that is worship. And so we are, we live in a pagan culture, the Aryans. We still have the folks in the church that want to deny. that Christ is the incarnated son, that they want to somehow change these things and they want to, they want to, you see, you see this, that deny the incarnation and they turn it into it's a spiritualism, or you see some churches and teachings deny that God is three persons in one being. But these, all of these have really downstream consequences that will end up. Like, if you keep going down the area and route, like, you, you may be often.

on the Trinity because you just don't understand it. That's one thing. But to pursue a system and call it Christianity that is not based and centered in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the triune God, if that's not your center, then whatever you're a part of, that will fade. That is not the kingdom. And so what is happening with Constantine here, and one of the reasons why I'm so appreciative of the Nicene Creed, is that it does give us this historical anchor. And I think that the Holy Spirit was in it. I really do. I think the Holy Spirit is moving his church forward. He is continuing to deconsolate the power of the church. And in this moment, he's kind of ironically bringing it together. But he will disperse that authority again. And so I think the church is a

continuation of consolidation, deconsolidation. And with each deconsolidation, it actually spreads further. And the priesthood of believers is imagined in a way that we can't even comprehend it. So I think this is like I read and listen to this lecture and I thought, this is about how God is orchestrating human history and the church on a broad scale. I think that's the best way to kind of interpret the study. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. We want you to sign up and take the course with us for free at unashamed for Hillsdale.com.

And I was curious, Zach, what you think or what you guys think about the why he didn't outlaw paganism. Was it because... I was going to ask you about. Yeah, was it because of his, you know, past with paganism and his dad? Or was it because just this idea of freedom to choose,

which, you know, is a theme that you see, at least attempted throughout Roman, you know, Empire history. I kind of thought it was that. That was my perspective. I actually think, I mean, this is taking... Because later it does get outlawed.

Like a later guy. Was it 380, I think? Theodosus does outlaw it later. But he didn't hear it. I was curious what you thought about. I was thinking about our colonization of America last course we just took. And about those early pilgrims like wrestling with the idea of like freedom of religion. And are we going to allow people to not be Christians and still.

In other states are all the different groups and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like that whole thing, it almost seems like, Like, this is like a Christian concept to allow freedom of religion in your, like, nation. You know, like, it's like, is it the Roman idea of freedom and individualism? Is it the American idea of individualism? But it seems like other Romans, other emperors outlawed Christianity or outlawed different religions at different times. it seems like it's something about being a Christian that we allow other people to have different

thoughts and opinions and religions and beliefs and still be a part of our community. Yeah. I kind of thought about Joshua when I was studying it. And, you know, Joshua's like, y'all can do whatever you want to do. But as for me in my house, we will serve the Lord. So I kind of got that idea of like, this is what I'm doing. You know, and this is the way that we're going. And you can, because there is that element of free will too.

And I think even for him in his perspective of like, I was in this other state and then I had this encounter and it led me here. So I think maybe he has that thought process that that could happen to other people too. But yeah, it does go on to get out a lot later. So, but I don't know if that's the reason or if he was fearful of still Rome, you know, of still Roman powers and stuff. I mean, they were largely pagan, right? So, I mean, you got to think of this.

When Constantine he makes the declaration, I mean, the Christians weren't like, oh, finally, we, you know, we've been working this agenda. They were like, wait, what? Like, it was a shock. This is not like a, I don't think it was quite what we would see as a political, like, mood that had been evolving. It was more like he had a radical encounter. Then he makes this declaration.

And so Constantine, the reason why he didn't outlaw paganism, in my opinion, is because it was pragmatic. It was like, what are you going to, you're going to turn the entire Roman world upside down in a moment, no, that's not going to happen. And that probably would have been a major threat to his power. So you, and maybe he didn't have a vision of having the whole thing be under Christ at first. But I think it was just like, can we operate the empire under the favor of God? Can we just allow Christianity to be for people to worship freely and thinking that this will kind of influence the culture?

I mean, I think that's more probably a stop process. Because if they were largely pagan and had been pagan for many, many years to come in and have some kind of, like, what are you going to, are you going to have like a force conversion of the whole nation? I mean, yeah, that probably wouldn't have worked, particularly when you see the history of the Roman Empire. Nobody sat in the seat of power for too long in Rome. So you got to kind of play your- Well, I was going to say, well, because they tried doing crazy stuff. Like, would the Roman Empire, would the Roman Empire try to force every? one to be baptized and convert in a day. Yeah, I think someone would try that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think

they would get assassinated. But Constantine, he had that interesting idea of baptism, though, because remember he was baptized on his deathbed? Yeah. Uh-huh. Because they talked about the seriousness of sin post post-posts. Post-baptism, so he just waited until he was on this deathbed. I thought that was interesting. Yeah, that was a very interesting thought as well. And I think it plays into the difficulty that's always been around because you certain we just we studied first second third john and that was such a point of tension in john's letters about how we deal with sin you know post-believer and it's always a struggle right because it's it's the idea about we we fully believe we're in christ and yet we still have simple behavior we still do things that are wrong and so you can see that struggle still going on

200 years later in his concept and mindset of really embracing grace and what it's like. And because it was still worse. If it was, I remember they said, you know, it was like that was the worst thing you could ever do. But if you think about it, I mean, there's no way to avoid that. You can't like waiting until the moment of death. I mean, I get where he was thinking, but it's just interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, that's kind of I say he was misinformed, but enthusiastic. Yeah. Because he kind of was like, he knew. was going to have to do what the Christians thought of as sinful. And even though he wanted to, his overall goal was to promote Christianity. And so he was like, I'm going to do some terrible things to get us to a better place. Then I'm going to get baptized.

It was almost he felt like he was kind of like the ends justify the means. He's kind of tricking the system on that. What do you think about it? So I was just looking back at my notes. like, I mean, the canon of the Old Testament, New Testament are established during his era. I mean, like, things that are anchors for us. Even the, even the elevation of Sunday. Sunday.

Yeah. I was just about, yeah, did y'all know that? I didn't know that either. No. He established Holy Day of Sunday. Yeah, I'd be careful saying it like that because I think it's one of the points they made in the, in the, I thought was a really good point was that when he said, remember he says he didn't write the New Testament? Because a lot of people will say that. They'll say, well, he wrote the New Testament or he canonized the Bible or he established Sunday.

I mean, I've used the same kind of language, but I think it's important to note that he didn't really do any of that. All he did was he brought the church together to establish what was already true. And so with the canonization of Scripture, this is one of the accusations that come from those who are hostile to Christianity. They try to make it sound like that these councils were arbitrary. and they were getting together and they were like, okay, this is in, this is not in, let's have a vote. And it's almost like it's a political thing. But that wasn't the case. I mean, when these guys come together, what they're doing is they're establishing for the first time on paper

what was already universally understood to be true into church. And so when you have like the Gospel of Thomas, for example, which is a spurious document, it's not inspired. And the early church knew this. They knew the gospel of Peter. That's not real. That's fake. That's a forgery.

It's not real. That is not inspired. Peter did not write that. The early church knew this. And so what Constantine's role is, and all of this, is bringing the church together and establishing, hey, this is what the church is always believed and known to be true. We need to get it on paper because these things are starting to pop up now that we know, you know, as a church, are not legitimate. For example, the heresy of Aryan. That was a heresy that everybody knew.

So when they came together, this is what they write. We believe in one God. This is the Nicene Creed. The Father Almighty, and Him one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, light of light, true God of true God. In other words, Christ is God. Begotten, not made. So he's not created. He's begotten, not made.

He's not a created being of one essence with the Father. whatever the substance of the father is, which is God, then Christ has that as well, and in the Holy Spirit. So I think the key phrase in this whole thing is that true God of true God, begotten not made, one of one essence with the Father. This is not an invention of the Nicene Creed. They're not inventing this. They're not saying, let's come up with this doctrine of the Trinity. Like people say, Trinity, the Word Trinity is not in the Bible.

that's not the point yeah that we use that word as shorthand but what this is happening what's happening here is they're they're saying we have to put this on paper because we're starting to see people that are coming up who are now challenging the deity of christ they're trying to say that christ was a creative being and that has never been the position of the church we have never believed that that is not true and we need to get this on paper now and we need to name this as heretical that's that's that's how you interpret all of these early creeds. They're not inventions of the faith. They are establishments of what the faith already and historically was and is today. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good way to place.

You're right. I mean, it's a recognition of what's already been established. I love that. And you remember one of the things they mentioned that the reason why Christianity is still been so strong throughout all this era of now a couple hundred years by the time we get to the point we're talking about now is because these were. good citizens. They were decent people. And they wouldn't back off from what they believed. Even if you

tortured them or persecuted them or killed them, they were like, they're not going to change their minds about this Christ they believe in. And so I just thought about that from what we were talking about at the beginning point. That's actually a great point of Christian pride, that that's what you're known for. But didn't that what Paul

said in first lesson long is? That's the way we should live. I mean, we should live our lives in such a way that we would impact people because of who we are and what we believe and the fact that and we wouldn't shrink back from anything including death itself so it really is a point to your point is that that this has been the consistent Christian walk since Christ was here and and all he did was recognize that and they were like we can't stamp these people out and the pagans have been trying for 200 years it's like you can't I mean they are so locked in on what they believe and they're good people

Yeah. Like we can't, we try to keep trying to blame. How many times did you take in the quiz in this thing and said the Christians were blamed? The Christians were blamed. The Christians were blamed. I mean, this happens in every 20 years of what we're studying here. Something bad would happen.

And it would say, well, absolutely. But don't you see the same pattern today? It's like you'll see like God's people, like the way the kingdom is, is the way. I don't, there's no question about that. And you see life and prosperity emerge when societies are anchored in this truth. But then things get bad. So when I was going to this course, I was like, man, it looks a lot like America today. It's like back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

It's like lightning speed. The whole thing's kind of corrupt at the top, but there's kind of like remnants of Christianity sometimes. And then on this side, it's like, no, it's a complete hostile to it. And then, I mean, it's like the same story. It's just different. We have different terms now. But it's the same story. And then the good news is, is that Christ's kingdom.

somehow survive, not just survives it, thrives through all of it. And the kingdom of God continues to expand across the globe. And so when you think about at this moment, when Constantine enters, would you say that the power and the influence of the global church of Christ is greater today? Or would you say it was greater then? I don't know. That's an open end of there. Globally?

I would say globally today. Yeah, I would say it's just as much now as it was then for sure. I think it's more now. I mean, look at like this book behind me, Tom Holland called Dominion, and he talks about the influence of the church, like since Christ came, like all, what impact has that had on society? And if you were to take Christ out and his people out of the game, I mean, there's no hospital systems, there's no education, really the advancements in science.

I mean, like, it is, it is a massive, I read somewhere that 98% of the world's population that's ever existed, has existed since Christ came, which tells you something, that human flourishing and the emergence of life, after Christ's chaos, it just exploded. And so, like, the church in global, the global church in her position today, in terms of influence, power, impact. I mean, I don't think any of any of these early Christians could have ever comprehended how far. And you see the same things, Zach, even like in our political discourse today. By the way, I want you to sign up and take the course with us for free at unashamed for Hillsdale.com. When you see the way we protest, so like I went to the only time I've really ever, and we're in a society where we encourage protests is how we started as a nation, right? And, but you see like, the only thing I've ever done is life, you know, so like I went to D.C.

And it was the March for Life. And I watched, I mean, they were singing and people and there were a lot of police officers there, like the Capitol, because this was not too long after January 6th and all this. And people are thanking the cops for their, you know, thank you for your service as they're walking by and they're singing. And it was just like a, it was a great occasion. It was like believers living out just what we're talking about way back here. and 300. And then I see the sort of the other side, which I think is its own religion

now with the government and whatever this is that so many young people are into now. But it's the cursing and the violence and the disrespect for those in authority there and it's just a con you know, I mean you're watching it

every day. It's every night on the news you can watch this somewhere in our country. And I just, to me it's so simple to see the difference in just how we're all free to protest, but you see one that's the fruit of it seems to be so bad, and then you see the other when the fruit of it seems to be so good. And I don't know, when you get back just to the simple idea of who Jesus is, to me, that's more of this kingdom vision of just understanding, okay, here's your choices.

Now, we're in a society where you can make your choice, and I think people should, but one just seems like such a better choice, I mean, to me. Yeah, a lot more common sense for sure. Well, one of the things it said is that, you know, it talked about how the majority of Christians in the Roman church at this time, I mean, like 40% of the Roman world was just a ton. And but most of them were like the women and the slaves and the lower like peasants. And I think you had the whole pagan idea and the whole pagan religion at the time

and the whole Roman Empire was based on these like very clear hierarchical like levels of like, top to bottom, like where do you stand in the hierarchy? That determines what your rights are, what your things are. And Christianity just upset all that. And all the Christians who are on the bottom, and whenever, like, just that slow march of, like, every day, you know, staying in their faith, praying to Christ, like, doing good work, doing good to each other,

Like that's what over a period long period of time like steadily built their influence and what just could not be snuffed out. Yeah. And I think of Jesus in Matthew 5 or in the sermon of the Mount

saying the meek will inherit the earth. And that's the thing that like the powers just get so confused by is like you just can't you can't stuff them out because it's the meek. You don't know where they are. It's not this like

violent secret society. It's just like everyday people. living their life. And that's because success and power and so many other things can become the idols as well. We're out of time. It was a good discussion. Constantine, a lot of positives. I love what did you say was he was not right about everything, but he was enthusiastic. Misinformed, but enthusiastic. I love it. That should be the tagline, which is really good. So we'll see you next time on Unashamed for Hillsdale. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy Powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to Unashamed for

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