Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1379 | Outrage Culture Is Destroying Our Ability to Discuss Things Honestly

Episode Date: July 17, 2026

Al, John Luke, Christian, and Zach consider how social media can distort people’s words, fuel misinformation, and make respectful disagreement harder. “Unashamed” opens the door to a more personal conversation with some of the show’s louder online critics. The guys contrast religions built around appeasing angry gods with the God of Scripture, who provides the sacrifice and pours out grace on his people. In this episode: Revelation 12:11; Isaiah 64:4; Isaiah 8; Acts 17:25; 2 Samuel 7; John 14:6; Galatians 3:16-17, 22, 26-29; Hebrews; 1 Corinthians 3:9; Genesis 1:26; 1 John 4:8, 10. Today’s conversation is about Lesson 2 of Theology 101: The Western Theological Tradition taught by various Hillsdale Professors. Take the course with us at no cost to you!  More about Theology 101: Examine the great questions of Western theology from the ancient Hebrews through today. The gift of speech, or reason, given by God to man, enables us to think about God and to worship Him.  This free online course pursues this purpose by examining the nature of God as revealed in the Bible, exploring the great theological questions and controversies of the early Christian church, studying the history of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, and much more.  We invite you to join us and explore the nature of the relationship between God and man, and how a proper understanding of this relationship can lead to a free and happy life. Sign up at ⁠http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters 0:00 Zach Relapses & Reads the Comments 4:37 Why Online Criticism Gets So Personal 8:42 The Better Way to Confront Bad Ideas 11:35 How to Be Challenged Without Being Cynical 15:53 The God of Grace in the Old Testament 21:45 God Alone Walks Through Abraham’s Covenant 28:31 Every Covenant Points Forward to Jesus 34:21 Christ Fulfills the Promise to Abraham 41:10 Why Christianity Can’t Be Separated from Judaism 45:06 God Created Humanity as an Overflow of Love — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. We're here with our Hillsdale Friday episode. We got Granny in the house today. It looks like when your granny blanket on. This is a hand-knit-knitted or crochet or whatever. Grandi Blankets. Did you crocheted or does that my idea? I did not. Okay. John Luke is a man of many talents. I didn't know if that was one. I've dabbled and I've dabbled in crochet.

I run very hot. So normally I'm sweating in here, even if it's cooler. But, I mean, I don't know, Maddie, we could hang meat in here today because it is cold. I just run cold. I'm like a little. You're very long, though. I bet it's hot outside. I'm coming from the 100 degree outside to just in here.

It feels like the Arctic. From my angle, you look like a centaur. Thanks. I'll have to get a picture of you. They'll take that as a compliment. That's what I was going for, actually. He's very thin for a centaur, though. They had to match the horse body, so they were always kind of just like

looked like Christian. Yeah. But you do kind of look like a centaur. I agree. Yeah, well. I'll take a picture of you. Yeah, take a picture. Well, I do want to say something.

Last episode, I feel like I talked a lot. I did. And I complained about Jay's talking too much. And I also said I'd never read the comments. which made me go back and read the comments. Oh, no. Here we go. So the little time we were talking, you know what he was? Read the comments.

I did go back and read the comments. Zach has one of those things on this fridge. It's like 31 days since I read the comments. And I was just like erasing. Well, you know, he goes. And I got one guy that said that. Back to zero. Here was the comment.

You're going to have to get back your CR chip now, Z. Because you just broke your. The negative comments. was this. It was just one comment, but it stuck with me. I may be a little hurt today, but it said,

no wonder, Jace doesn't let you talk. You're self-absorbed. Oh, no. So, I'm sorry I brought it up and see you to relapse.

Ouch. Last episode, you did the caveat, you did say the caveat that you liked this podcast because you did get to talk. Then you just. I did say that.

And maybe I, Maybe I'm the new Jace on this bike. And then he took full freedom. And then you took full freedom. So I'm going to do my best and not. Well, you needed you to talk. That's the thing. Is we needed your.

Well, this, yeah. Look, Christian and I, you know, we had, because he's not here. So we didn't have to. But as Christian had been here, we would, the first thing we would have said to each other this morning was, but we need John Luke and Zach to step up because we were reaching high. We were trying to get up there and grab this. This is out of mind, too. Like, this was, Zach, we actually...

We were reaching high together. We carried this last episode. Yeah. Well, here's the good news. We, for those who, even the, even the people who put the negative comments, you are still eligible. You really are. You're still eligible for this contest we're having, which you're going to pick one listener to come down to West Monroe to watch a live recording of Unashamed, which I actually would love it if one of the, you know, one of the dissenters would win. And we could spend some power together.

Oh, one thing is... Once they hang out with this a little bit, they're going to think we're the best. Yeah. Well, if you're a, a hater or commenter and you win the contest, we'll give you a whiteboard

so you can, like, hold up your comments while we're recording, so Zach can read them. He doesn't have to check this fast. Yeah, that's better. But, you know, it's funny because in real time, I've actually talked about this a lot.

When you hide behind the avatars, people are a lot more bold with their, like with their insults. But when you're face-to-face with somebody, you typically don't talk to people that way. I think that's healthy to not talk that way. It doesn't bother me. If it's like a lot of comments, it might bother me, but like it comes to the territory.

Well, I will say to defend you, because you defended me when some person said I was the biggest narcissist on the planet, which, I mean, a planet that has Eli Musk and Trump on it. That's a big statement. But anyway, you defended me. So I'll defend you about the self-absorption because you're right. And I made a point about this in my sermon. And it's right there in the text in James 1, we've been talking about on the Regger on a Shame, is that, you know, when he talks about our religion, you know, which is, you know, what we believe, the way we operate, he mentions that about the tight rain on the tongue.

And he's going to get into a lot more in James 3. And Paul deals with it some two in Ephesians, four, about the things you say. And just because it is an avatar, it's not your real name, or even if you use your real name, but because it's online but how you talk to people matters you know and look I'm critical things in my mind but when I put something in public I don't want to put things out there

that are super critical or tearing down if I ask your opinion you tell me then that's fair but you don't have to go after a person if you disagree with them and attach some label to them I hate that I just I've done it though I mean I've all have them we're human beings I've got on message boards and I've trolled people and like, I mean, I haven't done it in years, mainly because I think I did see what you're saying.

Don't. Early on. Don't have another relapse today, Zach. Yeah, that's true. But I'll tell you this. I have like written out responses that just scorched earth. And then I'm like, let that sit for a little bit far. I put post.

And I never post them. But I have, over the years, I've probably written out about 20 posts. And I'm like, I want to post this. And I'm like, no, I don't like the tone of it. It doesn't feel spirit-filled, so I don't do it. And that's the higher path. And I think that's the way we should operate, Zach. And because you're not self-absorred.

You're very aware of other people. You minister to people and you love people. And, you know, again, this person doesn't know you and they're just listening to a podcast. But I will say, folks, think about how you when you publicly post. Because, look, we take it because we're public figures. And it's just like, you got an opinion about me, that's fine, whether it's true or untrue. So we've learned to take the shots. But I'm just saying in how you, it is overall,

I feel like, de-evolved conversation in our culture to always have to take a shot. And look, I realize that's political language, all of it. But, you know, we're spirit-filled men of God here. So I think we should, I think, James is that. I think we should reflect that by what we say. Yeah, I think, I want to say on this, I think this goes right into what we're talking about here. because if you're like saying things on the internet and you're posting, comments or even just like doing a podcast like we're doing right now, like there is layers of learning and layers of authority in teachers. And depending on where you are and who you're listening to, like, is how much like a weight you're going to give that person. And so if you're like listening to, you know, if you're reading a peer reviewed tech book, if you're reading a systematic theology and it's like, dense or you're in time of quietness or you're taking a Hillsdale course like you know that that is a well-fought-out argument someone multiple people wrote that edited that watched it over again and like put it out to be something that's like this is the most true thing we can come up with

in the moment it's not like they're doing a TikTok video we're not doing it on accident but if someone if you're watching on TikTok or Instagram or Facebook or whatever and you just see like a clip of someone saying something, like, you're, that does not have the same weight or authority in, like, the things you're learning. Right. And you don't have to, like, engage with that in a way that is, like, overly compensate. Because, like, you don't have to take that seriously and they're not, like, expecting, like, a big response.

Does that make sense? Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, because, yeah, because what, I think that what happens is if you can, if you can understand the context of whatever you're engaging with is you don't attack the person. You can attack what they're saying in a sense. I disagree with that because ABCD. And then you have dialogue. But when you, with the personal attacks, when that comes, what that's meant to do,

it's meant to shame people, to shut down discourse. What that actually means is I'm really insecure about the position I hold. And I don't think I could defend it. And so I'm going to attack you personally and hope that will shut. shut you up because I really can't engage with the material that you're presenting. Now, I actually welcome the engagement on the material. I think that's super healthy, which is what the Hillsdale courses are designed to do and what the whole university is system. It used to be what universities were about. It wasn't about indoctrination. It was about come together. We debate ideas.

We bring everything into the arena of the marketplace of ideas, and we let the best idea win. and then we all grow together. That's the goal. And you know, Dr. Arn said it. He said, you don't have to have a statement of faith. We don't force you to do that and to be a Christian, even though we're overtly Christian in Hillsdale. But here's the word of you used in what you just said,

but you have to respect us in the institution of what we're trying to do, which means, therefore, in your disagreement, if you disagree, you have to do it respectful. That's what we're talking about respectful, and that's what's your whole point about what you said a minute ago. Yeah, to add on to my point, And then to circle back to what y'all just said, the way, there is a lot of misinformation online,

and people are saying things that are just crazy. I saw this little clip of this person speaking the other day, and I just, in my car, my next 10 minutes of my car, I just out loud just ranted about how wrong. And no one else was in the car with you. No, it was just me, and how wrong the thing that that person said was. and somebody would have driven by you at that moment and saw you that's a crazy man.

I was like waving my arm. But you never posted it? No, I just said it. But what I am going to do with that information, though, is I thought about what they said, came up with my own argument about it, and when I'm teaching on that subject or someone asked me about that subject, like I'm going to teach what I think is good information. Right, right.

Or if I like sometimes... And you're used that as an illustration as to this is... this is what got me here. Or if I like see someone, if I see like a clip of something that I'm like, that's crazy and then I'll, you know, someone you can see like who liked it.

If I see someone I know who liked it, I will text them and be like, what they said is not true. And the way that I think that we combat, we as people, all of us, you listeners and us, or as combat misinformation is like,

is not in those comments. It's like in person with the people that you're around. Like you, our way of our way of combat misinformation is this podcast, but it's also like in person with the people that we're teaching. And like you as a person don't have to like, feel like you have to battle it out in the comments.

You just learn, form your arguments and teach those around you. And I was listening to this podcast. I want to say I got this from Pice's of Aquinas podcast, speaking of Aquinas, it might not have been them where I heard this. But they're talking about critical thinking and how you develop critical thinking skills is by being challenged by things. By being asked questions you don't know the answer to. And I think that's exactly kind of like what we're talking about here is like the way that we develop these critical thinking is critical thinking is like dwelling on these questions or pondering on these questions that we don't know the answer to. that are these like higher level thinking, higher theology,

and like letting our lack of knowledge and curiosity about that lead us up to God. Yeah, the pressure testing of it. You know, it's one of the things I was thinking about that happened to me recently happened to me this year is there's a particular person that I have watched a lot of their content online that I think I've actually I haven't said it publicly, but I've said it to Jill for sure that this particular person is extremely self-absorbed, the same thing that I was accused of being, and probably I am to some degree, we all are. But here's what's funny. I never really interacted with this person. It was just what I was seeing, something about their presentation just is not my style.

I didn't like it. Then I got in a weird situation where I met this person face to face. And not only did I meet them face to face, we ended up praying together. And it was so funny coming out of that. Like I felt so convicted because I'm praying with this person who I had all this like this, the way I thought about them. But I think that's the thing. People are doing on. That has happened to me so many times.

You've had the same experience. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, people have a tinge on social media. Then you meet them and you're like, wow, you're actually a really cool person. But I still make you disagree with your approach or things like that. But I'd still. which I was actually going to ask you that because I feel like that's something that I can struggle with is like is because I is that open dialogue which kind of like what you just talked about Zach of like you know you love that open debate forum you know you love you know discussing different ideas and all those things but for you how do you keep a healthy approach of like consistently liking to do that but also not being overtly cynical because because that's the thing.

thing I can wrestle with is like talking to people that have like fundamental different beliefs because then at some point I just check out which I know it's not always the best answer but for you how do you keep that open dialogue and discussion while also not just becoming overtly cynical towards it? I have to answer your question for me I don't think I've done that well you know my whole life there have been a lot of times when I haven't done that well and then over years of seeing that fall flat and never seeing people like any of us move forward in the conversation. And then seeing, probably seeing the division, a lot of that causes. I just got out of, out of the gacha game and more into, I want to have a real conversation with you.

I want to, you know, I want to know, I want to know what's true. And so truth kind of trends, kind of rises to the top. And, and I think having a really good theology 101, you know, which is the course we're taken. Yeah, I think in having a good basis for theology and kind of, working through a lot of the stuff internally myself with other people. That, that to me has really helped me because I don't feel the need even to proselytized people.

It's like, here's what I think, this is how we're living this out, and that there's an invitation into this. Also, when you remember Phil's famous line, I could be wrong. Yeah.

You know, admit, I could be wrong. You could, all you can add the caveat, but I doubt it. But I mean, but like,

yeah, we're, We're trying to figure this out. I get more nervous about people who think they're just so sure of their position. I'm like, I get nervous because I'm not super sure on everything. And there's a lot of them still trying to search. Which, by the way, this is the LG 101. You can take the classes for free at Hillsdale.

I do want to just mention real quick before we get into the actual lecture here that we are having our contest. If you want to come down and hang out with us and get to watch one of the shows, we're going to pay for lodging and travel for you and the gas up $1,000 each. All you got to do is take the Theology 101 course with us, finish the quizzes, send us your certificate of completion. You send that to watchunashamed.com, and then you'll be entered into the drawing. And you can take the courses at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com.

So take the course, Unashamed for Hillsdale.com, finish it, give us your certificate of completion, uploaded at watchunashame.com, and you'll be entered to win a draw. drawing. We actually have our first person coming down in a few weeks. So, yeah, so Al, I'll let you kick off this lecture. And let me say something in response to Christians' question, because my approach has been a little bit different through the years. Because, I mean, I'm well studied. I love to study the Bible. I love to teach the Bible. And that's why I love what we're talking about today. This is so rich. This is called the God of Grace and Judaism

in the Hebrew Bible. Dr. Westclade is this gentleman, and I just thought he was outstanding, really, really good. But when I'm talking to people, whether it's an individual or in front of a group of people that I haven't met,

because now I have so many different venues to speak, Christian, I found that if I lead with my story, which is just God's story lived out in me, that it tends to break down some of the presuppositions that we would have about differences or what we didn't know. And it just seems to connect better with people at that level. And then you can teach it.

And people can disagree with what you said. But by putting yourself out there that here was my story, here's what God did with me. It's kind of back to that Revelation 12-11 commonality that tends to connect to people. And then you can talk about things you may or may not disagree with. But it's like we're all doing it at the same level. I don't consider myself as any higher than anybody else.

And here's what God did to save me. Because I find if people, you can relate to people at that personal level of a story, then they can tell you their story. And you can be just as drawn to them because of that. And everybody's story is different, you know, and how we get there. So just, you know, for the whatever. I think, I think Zach gave a good caveat for it of where I think the struggle is, is when you have the dialogue with people that are so sure of their opinion.

Yeah. I think that's, that's, that's when I struggle with it to where it's like there's nothing I say that's going to sway you or not that I'm even trying to convince you, but it's you almost can't have a conversation if at that person is so close-minded to any other sort of, you know, perspectives. I think that's, that's the part that's like is when you're talking to someone and it's their mind's already made up. There's nothing that you're going to say. So I think that's, yeah, and you're right. That's hard. That's when it gets hard.

You have to have that feel lead of. I could be wrong. So let me just introduce the, I want to read this text because he did, because I thought it was so good in Isaiah 64, 4. Because he's going to, you know, his whole thing is to go through the kind of the big five, we call them, covenants that you find in the Old Testament. That's how they did kind of a cross-section because I was impressed. I mean, the man in 42 minutes was trying to cover the entire Old Testament.

That's a handful. But he did a really good job. But here's what Isaiah said. and he read this Isaiah 64-4. Since ancient times, no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides you. And here was what he really zeroed in on through the covenants, who acts on behalf of those who wait for him. And I thought he really did a great job of showing this idea that this monotheistic God that we believe in. And this also, by the way, the links back in the Abraham covenant to not only Christianity,

but also Judaism, which are linked, and then even Islam, you know, going back to that certain, you know, monotheistic idea, even though I guess we'd have a different view of who God is. But his point was that God, it works for the people. And instead of the other way around, which is how most people view any polytheistic you're trying to please the gods and all the stuff we studied in the ancient Christianity and paganism and the whole idea is we have to appease and we and so it but it's just the opposite and the Isaiah passage I felt like really laid the groundwork for that in a really good way and Zach also went to Isaiah eight was just the idea of waiting and trusting God and then he also mentioned act 1725 which is that idea that

God he can't be served by human hands and it's not like he can you know somehow we can make this God up on our own, which is what happens with the other. So I thought it was just a really good foundation. I mean, the overarching thing that he said, and it was so funny as I was watching this episode, like the rebuttals were popping in my head, although I agreed.

I mean, I was like, well, I'll give an example. They were, he was saying that, you know, all of the religions of the world are, the God exists to be served by the creature. And then in any kind of, flips the script in in Christianity and he says what but in Christianity you see God serving the creature or some version of what I just said and as soon as you say that you're like whoa that is not like I mean you can feel like the tension there like wait a second are you saying like we're

the boss and God's the employee kind of thing and and that tension is there and but I think I mean really if you just like strip it all down though you think well well it's kind of true though And he uses that passage in Acts 17 as that God, it says God is not served by human hands as if he needed anything. And so in a weird way, like what, I think this whole discussion is very nuanced in how it was delicately presented. But we do see in the scripture, even in the Old Testament, even in these old covenants, what you see is, you don't see the god like in the movie you guys are you all remember the movie Joe versus the volcano did you ever see that but Tom Hanks back in the I think it's Tom Hanks it is I haven't I didn't see it I didn't see it what year but it's it's it's it's it's

it's like it's been years since I've seen it but it's basically he the gods are angry and they got to sacrifice the virgin to the angry gods so they're going to throw the virgin into the volcano and that is pretty much every religion on the face of the planet, right? I mean, is that we make a sacrifice to God to appease their anger. But what you see in Yahweh, what you see in the Judeo-Christian God is something completely different. Because he goes to these covenants. The first one was Adam Noah covenant.

And the second one, I think the second was the second one, Abraham, the Abraham covenant. And he mentioned Genesis. 15. If you go read Genesis 15, when God makes a covenant with Abraham, or actually was Abraham at the time, it's a very interesting passage. Because what happens in that passage is that they have this covenant, this agreement that they're going to make with one another. God and man, God and Abraham. And so what God says is, I want you to take these animals and I want you cut them in half. And you're going to make a pathway. You're going to put half the animal on the left, the other half on the right side.

And you can imagine that it was a very bloody scene, lots of blood. Genesis 15, by the way, if you're wondering where that is. Genesis 15. And what he says is we're going to walk through this path together. We're going to make this covenant with one another. And what we're saying is when we do this is that both parties walk through and both parties say, if I break this covenant, may this happen to me. may my blood be spilled like these animals.

May I be cut and have, may I die if I break this covenant? And that was the idea of this whole like a gesture or this whole dramatization of the covenant. But what happens in Genesis 15 is that God alone, he puts Abram to sleep, and then God alone walks through that covenant. He walks through that path. And what he's saying is, Abraham, if you break this covenant, may this happen to me. I mean, think about that. That is in stark contrast to all the world's religions because all the world's religions say that man's sacrifices to appease the angry gods. But in the Judeo-Christian world, in oral view, it's God provides the sacrifice of himself. He doesn't demand the sacrifice of us. He actually provides the sacrifice for us, which is why these covenants are called the, they're underneath something called the covenant of grace. And to me, it is a, it is the way.

you should read the scriptures. No, that's really good, Zach. And I felt like actually, I miss quoted America. So he had Adam as one and then Noah as then the second, because basically that was a reset after the flood, and then Abraham was number three. But here's one of the things that, because I always learned something I didn't know

when we take these Hillsdale classes. Because, again, I've taught covenant theology. I've gone through the covenants. And I don't know how I miss this until, but listened to his lecture, was exactly right. Every covenant that he goes through, because then the next one after Abraham is Moses and after Moses is David. Yeah, through the five, which then interestingly, and I'm assuming we're going to get there on our next lecture, because then an eternal covenant was set with him that

would link to Christ. And, Zach, you were mentioning that about the idea of serve and how that sounds edgy. Well, think about when Jesus said multiple times, told his disciples, he didn't come to be served, but to serve. I mean, so he's saying the exact words of what we're talking about here, from Yahweh now the son of God, coming here in flesh with the idea of serving us and sacrificing himself for us. But here's the thing I learned I didn't know, that every covenant in these covenants, every one of them had an addition to the previous covenant.

There was always something new that was added on, and I had not really thought about it in those terms. But why is that? Well, because as the people of God are walking through history, they're walking into something new and different every few hundred years. I mean, you know, first they're just, you know, it's just the guy in the garden. Pretty simple to do a covenant with him. He's the first. Well, then you got all this violence that comes up.

And so then after the flood, which was basically just an extermination of humanity, except for one family, there's a reset. and God adds into the Noah covenant, the idea of retribution. In other words, that's the idea of government. Somebody has to curb violence or human beings on their own will just go to a point in just a few generations where they just kill each other. And you think, well, how is that possible? We're 250 years old, and we had a Civil War

where we literally lined up on the sides of fields and shot one another to death over things we couldn't agree on politically. So you can see where it happens, somebody can step in and curb. And so God added that in. And then as you go through the covenants, you see them add more and more. As I mentioned the Abraham covenant. You see this idea there of the first sacrifice and the first idea of justification.

Now there's going to be this faith principle and there's going to be a land that's going to be there for people. It's 400 years away. And they're like, I'm sure Abraham's like, I don't even know what you're talking about. He came out of a polytheistic situation. And then when you get to Moses, he adds the idea of treaties and laws. So everyone adds a different element and nuance as we go through the covenants. And then with David, you add the kingdom and the king.

Exactly. But here's what's crazy about it. The Davidic covenant is interesting too because by the time you get to David, there's that passage you mentioned in Second Samuel, who I thought was such a great word, especially when you start thinking about what we've been teaching on the kingdom and the temple and whatnot. The idea, this is Second Samuel 7. David's like, I'm going to build you a house.

house, God. I want to build that mobile, that mobile tabernacle. We got to put that in a permanent structure because that arc of the covenant's been, it's in a tent. We need a, we need a palace. We need a temple. We need to, I'm going to build that for you. And then God says this to him in 2 Samuel 7. From that time that I appoint judges over my people, Israel, and I will give you rest from all your enemies. Moreover, the Lord declares to you that the Lord will make you a house. Again, you see the provision of the Lord. So this is a prophecy, too, of the God will build the house. Solomon, when he built that temple after David, he was Solomon's son,

he's like, surely God's like to live in a house built by my hands, which is also echoed in Acts 17 when God says, I don't need anything from you people. But the idea here is that God is the one that's providing. And so, you also have this in there as well. in verse 16 of chapter 7 of 2nd Samuel. And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.

That's prophetic of Christ coming. And so what you have in all of these covenants before Christ, they're all under the covenant of grace ultimately. But what you have is, you know, in Washington, D.C., and there's a powerful committee. The most powerful committee in Washington, D.C. is the ways and means committee, because they control the purse, basically. The ways and the means.

And you could have a way for something like, here's the way to do that, but if you don't have the means to pull it off, then you're not going to be able to actually accomplish it. I think what you see in all of these first like five covenants as the way they divvy them up, which was, what were they, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David, the David covenant. what you have is you have the way to do this is the way to go the reason why they had to keep adding the things on to it was because they they're they didn't have the means to actually accomplish the way and so when christ comes in the new testament what christ accomplishes read the book of hebrews is he gives us not just he he gives us the means to the way and that's why he says i am the way the truth in the life and nobody comes to the father except for me so christ provides us what the actual means to pull this off to actually be, but that's the point. You see that even in

the Old Testament, because you see it in Genesis 15. Who provided the means? In Genesis 15, what in Abraham? God alone walks through. You see it in the Davidic covenant. When he says, I want to build a house, you ain't going to build me a house. I'm going to build you a house. I'm the one providing the means. You see that all throughout scripture. And that's why I thought this was such a good lecture to start theology 101 with because it puts the right emphasis on actually who's the one It's going to be the, what does he call it? The patron and then the client. So be sure to sign up and take the courts with us for free at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com.

Were you going to say something, Christian? Well, I was saying, wasn't that the Souser and Vassel thing he was talking about? Or is that something different? It's the same concept. Yeah, I mean, that what you're mentioning specifically, what he put under the Moses covenant, which I thought was really interesting. I had never heard that tape before about. the Hittites and about them being, you know, kind of some new revelation from archaeology has shown that they were much more powerful than first thought, that they were actually had made these treaties with Egypt, but then also with the lessers for them. And he made that link in the idea about the Ten Commandments and the whole covenant, you know, from Mount Sinai as being like what he compared to a NATO treaty, which was this idea of you had the king and the kingdom, the powerful kingdom and the vassarthe,

soul in a lot of relationship that we're there between us and God, which was really interesting. It was kind of that upside down triangle we were talking about earlier. Zach, I want to make the point that to your point about all of it pointing to Christ, he mentions Galatians 317, which says exactly that. I mean, Paul's making that exact case. He said in verse 16, the promises are spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The scripture does not say, and to seeds, meaning many, many, people, but and to your seed, meaning one person who is Christ. What I mean is this, the law introduced

400 years later, 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. So each one of those is an addition, but it's not doing away with, but it's all pointing towards Christ. And I just think it's, you have to understand that, which is that's where these rivers come together in us and Judaism, because as he said, we're dependent on, I mean, the God of Yahweh taught us this and the coming of the Messiah and prepared us for this over all this history and all these things that were happening and all these covenants to understand that the covenant we make with Christ is the ultimate covenant. That's when the promise of all this is realized.

This is big. This is big because I think there's a big discussion right now going on around eschatology. And I know there's a lot of different opinions on it. This is one of those areas I think we can get into the arena of ideas. and we can have like grown up conversations by it, but I mean, you mentioned the Galatians. I mean, the point he's making there.

Listen to how that reads as you continue to read throughout the rest of Galatians chapter 3. He says, but the scripture, and this is the Old Testament scripture, imprisoned everything under sin. So this is, that was the Mosaic covenant. Everything was in prison under sin

so that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe. So now he's shifting, like, who are the people of God? How is, what is, what is this whole story completed in? It's, it's completed. It's finished in the finished work of Christ. So this is fulfilled in Christ. This isn't, it isn't a replacement.

It's fulfilled in Christ. I mean, we have to think about this. And so he goes on to say, for in Christ Jesus, you are, this is verse 26, you are all sons of God through faith. So in Christ Jesus, who's he talking about? All of you, Jew and Gentile. Everybody through faith are sons of God in Christ Jesus. For as many of you who are baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Here's the climax. There is neither Jew nor Greek. There's neither slave nor free. There's neither male. There's no male and female for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if you are Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise. Like, I don't know how we have missed this. I mean, but you do not hear this being taught a lot. And I'm like, but this is the point of that whole Old Testament covenant was that this was all coming to a conclusion in the person of Jesus Christ, which is why he mentioned this in the text too, when Jesus held up the scriptures, and it was, I think this may have been in one of the

after the Q&A episodes, he actually held up a Targum, which was an Aramaic translation of the Old Testament, and Jesus held that thing up, and he said, you study this diligently, and you think you're saved by these scriptures, but you miss the one me they point to. The whole thing, the whole thing ends in Christ Jesus, and that's why the foundation is, Christ himself. He's the cornerstone. We sing that song as kids, right? You know, he's our firm foundation. I was thinking of yesterday morning at breakfast, two of my friends.

One of them, he was just like joking and the girl walked up and said, you know, good morning. And him just messing around said, Merry Christmas. And just as like a bit. And then she said, happy Hanukkah. And he said, are you Jewish? and she said, I default to Judaism. And when she said that, it like clicked in my mind. I was like, we do.

We do default to Judaism. And like listening to this podcast after, even after that happened yesterday, I just thought like that, that's actually exactly what we're talking about here, where you don't have to be like, obviously you don't have to be Jewish or go through Judaism to get to Christ or to be a Christian. but understanding what God did through the Old Testament and through the Jews and through the religion of Judaism helps us to understand where God is going with Christ and why it all, you know, why it all matters. Well, and then also, I mean, let's just be practical.

And he basically finished out his lecture with some of the political overtones of what this looks like. When he's talking about God serving us, and he said the government should always be the exact same way. which kind of gets them into the idea of what America's supposed to be, the founding of government that serves its people, and the idea is for their good, you know, not the other way around where they take all your money and then they're just in power. And so same thing with what you mentioned about the Jews.

Isn't it interesting that here we are, not even a century removed from the Holocaust, and what's one of the driving forces now out there politically is anti-Jewishness and anti-Semitism. and even in our current American climate. I mean, we're seeing a whole group of people rise up, and it's just like it keeps happening over and over and over again. And here we are as Christians who were born out of the,

our Lord and Savior was a Jew. God chose to come through that system and that setup and these covenants that we were talking about in the Old Testament to bring himself to us. And Paul makes the point eloquently in Romans that how can we ever turn our backs on them. I mean, we understand who Christ is, but we understand the way in which we got here.

So it is amazing to me when I see these ideas about what I think now is modern paganism with the worship of government and, you know, and all these crazy ideologies that come out and misunderstanding genders and the whole lot of it. And then it always keeps boiling back down to this anti-Jewishness. So it's like an attack on our history. Well, to be fair, I think you got a, I think there's a lot of nuance in that because what some people call anti-Semitism is if you believe that essentially the old covenant

was fulfilled in Christ. I mean, no, Christ did fulfill the old covenant. And Christ is the fulfillment of this. And so there is no Jew nor Greek in the Kingdom of God. God. There's only God's people. And so this is like clear teaching in Scripture, in my opinion. And so like that, some of the criticisms I think are fair. Some of them aren't. Some of them are truly anti-Semitic or whatever. But I do think that it's a nuanced discussion because it gets back to the question of, okay, how do you understand the Old Testament? Is this a separate thing? And then God has that. Boom, that's one thing. And then Christ, the New Testament's over here. They're completely separate. or is it one one cohesive story? Is there a biblical arc here? And that's one of the reason why I love covenant theology

because it shows it all under the covenant of grace. And I think it gives a framework. So when you read a book of Hebrews, for example, you're like, oh, wow, Jesus is actually better. He's better than the angels. He's better than the prophets. All the Jewish prophets. He's better than Moses.

He's better than Abraham. He's better than the original temple. He's a better sacrifice. He's a better high priest. And so you get to the end of the book of Hebrews. You're like, I think the point is Christ is best. Christ is best. And everything else before him pointed to him.

And so we see Christ as the summation and the fulfillment and the completion of all thing. And if anything that you're into, eschatology, theology, is pissed about all theologies. If they don't terminate on the person of Jesus Christ, then you've got the wrong ology and your ology has to end on the person of Jesus who is the great equalizer that brings all of the nations in under his sovereignty and under his control and then he benevolently he benevolently gives grace and mercy and lavishes us with mercy and in return we give him worship that he is due and that seems to be the the picture of the kingdom not all these kind of like Morris Code and Da Vinci Code type things where you got to have a, it's not that complicated,

you know. The verse that I came to mind is 1st Corinthians 3-9. It talks about we are God's fellow workers. Like we're God's co-workers in building the kingdom. And it goes on to talk about like we are God's field and in God's building. And kind of the idea there is what we're talking about. and it's not like this like we're serving God as like he's our boss or we're his boss or whatever it's like God has this project of earth that he is set up and that he's building and we are all

working alongside of him to fulfill that yeah and he brought up in the in the second episode about genesis one um genesis one and he talked about the idea that genesis one is portraying is like God is creating uh creates the universe sustains it and he it's just like ongoing building project that he's doing and he puts us in it and tells us take care of the garden you know we're day seven like we're working on that and like that's continuing on today like we are entering god's house we're entering god's kingdom and coming along choosing to come alongside of him to like continue to work the goodness of creation, but we don't have to. And that's, I think, is different than the other religions, is that God gives us the choice.

I like that. And I love the sign up with us, take this course for free, unashamed for Hillsdale.com. I love the idea. And again, this is something else I learned. I hadn't thought about it in the terms he put it. The God created space, and then he filled the space in those creative days, you know, Because we're always to argue about, you know, older, new earth, just the simplicity of that. I thought that was really good.

And then in this day seven idea of rest, but really completion, like he said, you build something and it's the perfect, in this case, the perfect painting. And then it's like, okay, now here, here you go. And we're in that seventh day. And Zach, that's where you get out of the idea about a new garden. And you mentioned Hebrews, all the ideas, us. be in the temple and continued being built, you know, brick by brick, which is life by life. And Christian mentioned the patron client.

And you have to watch it when you illustrate some comparison to God because it's hard. You know, it usually never quite works out. Like you said, he used the employee and boss idea, even the patron client. But it is interesting, and I think he was right, that the idea that you would hire somebody. So technically they work for you, but then you would listen to them. and follow their advice. And he mentioned teachers and, you know, and lawyers and doctors. And he's right.

That's exactly what we do. In a sense, they work for us because they're given us, but we have to trust. It's more than just you pay them. If you don't trust them, you're not going to listen to them, especially when it comes to your health or your money or whatever. So there's a trust factor that we have to wait. We have to objectify it. Did they really give me good advice?

And so I do think there's some good analogy. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's a good analogy. but Christian, you mentioned patron-client. I love the idea that God does the work, and he drew this out. God does the work, and he loves, but he loves by mercy, support, protection, and then there's the grace that he gives us. And then when it flips to us, how do we respond to that? We wait, we have faith, and we love him back,

which is seen in worship, reliance, and honor. And I just love that picture. It's so good. the idea of who God is and how, you know, his word, his logos that we talked about in the last podcast creates a worship for him. And then it becomes a we, as you just mentioned in First Corinthians 3-9, because now we have a relationship with the divine. And Zach, we talk about this along the other podcast. By the Holy Spirit living in us, we literally now have the connection, the heaven and earth here with us, because the Holy Spirit lives in us. And

we become that temple. And so you see that on a consistent basis. So it's a beautiful picture that he's presented here just with this first look, you know, at the Old Testament and kind of how that's led to our relationship with God. Yeah. I think he, that's why when you see the words and you say God, God is the one that provides. You see that in that Second Samuel passage and he's actually that God does provide, ultimately he does provide the temple. He does build the temple. God built, I didn't build this body. God built my body. And he created it.

He created me. He formed me in my mother's womb. And so God built the temple that he lives in. He lives in human beings now. He lives in those who have been baptized into Christ Jesus. And so he did exactly what he said. And then I think, too, like, that gives us kind of the, this theology also gives us, like, the foundation for how we actually build civil societies. You know, when you think about, I don't know if this is in the lecture or in the after conversation, Q&A,

but he talked about that Genesis 126, let us make man in our image. And you see that, right? So is this plural or singular? God said, let us make man in our image. And this is somewhat debatable, but I don't think it's very debatable, but I think that is a Trinitarian passage. When he says, let us, well, who's the us? I think it's Father, Son, Holy Spirit, saying let us make man in our image. Some guys like Michael Heiser believe that's a reference to the Divine Counsel.

I think it is a Trinitarian reference. And I think it is saying, let us make man in our image. And one of the things that he brings up in this lecture is he says, what does it mean to be made in the image of God? What does it mean? He asked the question, something like this, like what was God doing before he creates? Do you guys remember that? I heard a lecture by Jerry Wall on this one time, and he asked the same question, and actually referenced, who did he reference?

It was Augustine, who said he was preparing hell. Yeah, he was making hell. Yeah, he's making hell. He's creating hell for those who pride in the matter such as these. But it actually is a fair question. And he kind of got into this, but when you think, what was God doing? before he creates anything, when all that exists is the father, son, and spirit eternally.

Nothing else exists. What's he doing? You know what he's not doing? He's not pouring out his wrath on anyone because there's no, there's no, there's no, there's no one's sinning, so there's no wrath to be poured out. He's not lavishing mercy out on anyone because there's no infraction of sin for him to lavish mercy on. He probably isn't even exercising sovereignty if you understand sovereignty as how God rules over his creation because there's no creation yet.

These are all attributes of God that come into play once God creates. But what was he doing before he creates? And the answer is he was loving himself and not in a narcissistic way because God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. He's loving himself in a self-sacrificial way. And so one of my favorite books is called Delighting in the Trinity, and one of the author in that book makes the point that the reason why God creates us is because we are an overflow of His love. 1 John 4-8 versus 1st, 1st, John 4-10, God is love.

So this is the foundation for theology is who is God first, and then we can start, then we can ask the question. And if God is eternally loving, then we can start to answer the question, well, who am I in him if I made his image? And then we can talk about the far. Then we talk about, you know, how do we get back to that? And then when we understand that, Zach, then we share that same community. We create life, our children.

We love them as a father loves a son or a daughter. And then it passes that on. And then you also have, and he made the point, neighbor to neighbor. We love other people with that same love that God has given us. So it's a beautiful picture. We're out of time. Man, there was so much good stuff in here. We could have done two podcasts on this.

Sign up, take the course with us. It's free. Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. You're going to love this Theology 101. Next time I think we shift into the Christian view, we've kind of been hinting at it so far on this one. So we'll see you next time on Unashamed with Hillsdale. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy powered by Hillsdale College.

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