Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1402 | The AI Boom Is About to Prove the Robertsons Right About One BIG Thing

Episode Date: August 19, 2026

Jase, Al, and Zach look ahead to the AI age and consider why it could make one decidedly old-school part of life more valuable than ever. The guys connect that idea to the family’s unconventional relationship with the global church, debating accountability, community, and whether Christians have become too comfortable consuming church instead of living out their faith together. Plus, Zach gets Randy Travis’ attention with a viral rendition of “I Told You So,” and Jase channels a little Phil Robertson spirit while sizing up an unsuspecting banker. In this episode: James 1, verses 5–6; James 1, verse 25; James 2, verse 26; James 3, verses 13–18; James 5, verse 14; John 1, verses 1–3; Acts 2, verses 1–47; Acts 15, verses 1–21; Acts 17, verses 16–34; Ephesians 1, verses 17–18; 1 Corinthians 12–14; 2 Timothy 3, verse 16 “Unashamed” Episode 1402 is sponsored by: Go to curehydration.com/unashamed and get 20% off your first order with promo code UNASHAMED https://preborn.com/unashamed — Visit the PreBorn! website or dial #250 and use keyword BABY to donate today. http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ — Sign up now for free, and join the Unashamed hosts every Friday for Unashamed Academy Powered by Hillsdale College XXXXX NOT YET NOW LINKS XXXXXX — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? I will tell you guys that there are others that are coming after me to join them in their endeavors that threatens my time here. I just want to give you all fair warning. Well, bye. When we were, Zach is this a warning. Well, I mean,

I said we don't want to like maybe try to keep me. But I, the tombstone. Was that tombstone? Yeah, that was, that was, Billy.

Yeah, when we were together last week, my kids have been, like, they wanted me to do the, you know, they do the viral videos, you know,

the singing and stuff. And they've asked me for years to do a song with them. And you finally did it. I finally did one. And you're not going to, believe it. It was a song by a guy. You saw it?

It sounded pretty good, didn't it? Yeah, it sounded great. In my opinion, you need to go do that. Are we rolling? This a business. Just show, because you just show up. Like, that week in Nashville taught me a lot about y'all. Y'all just were unprepared. You're unashamed. I don't know what you're talking about. I was we were fully prepared. Y'all read none of the books.

You watched none of the videos that Maddie, it took her at least. that had to be a 30-minute composite of all those things she had. One of the main reasons I did it all is because I thought Maddie spent at least 30 minutes compiling this. I was as prepared as one could be.

Well, look, look, we sing a song, I've got to tell you this, we sing a song by Randy Travis. I told you so. It was a little three-part harmony, me, Layland Max. and the man himself commented on the post and recommended. Oh, really?

Yeah, he did. And he recommended that I joined Dasher of the band as the third member. And I do have the last name. So there's just a lot of, a lot of, you know, just noise out there right now. A lot of people trying to get my attention. I just don't know what I'm on to do. You know what I would say is stay in your lane, bro. Stay in your lane.

off the business ventures and get into God, family, and ducks in that order. Yeah, I might do it. If I could talk my kids into it, I might do it, you know. We'll see. No, I think it's a good, good venture. That's why I'm saying. We would never hold you back, Zach, although we would miss you deeply. Now, if you said you were going to go, you know, join a harem or something, you know, I'd say, no, wait a minute, you know, whatever. If it was something worldly, but no, that's good. Zach, you've always been talented. We try to get you saying on the podcast, but you wouldn't.

But then you do a viral video with your kids, and that's what you would describe. And it was sounded great. I'd always know when you could sing. I'm really tempted to sing right now. I found, you did the Frank Sinatra thing at all your events now, Jay. Well, I did it yesterday at my event. So what happened? You sent me a text in the morning, which was hilarious, by the way.

You sent me a very funny text. Let's start there. We're there. We're starting there. That's what we're doing. Well, that's why I knew when you told me that. So the first thing you do, when we get on the podcast together, and we have a weird situation because the lovely and talented Maddie, we don't see her.

She's somewhere in Arkansas. But every once in a while, there's a voice in my head. It's like, oh, it's Maddie, which is a lot of talent to pull this off. Oh, yeah. And run it. We're all four in different. But normally the three of us are in different spaces, but today Maddie's in a different space. I think Maddie's figured out if she can prove the model, then she can bolt and she won't

have to see any of us except virtually. I think this is. I think she's got to prove the model. But she is from Arkansas. And she's down. And by the way, just Unashamed Nation, I want you to pray for Maddie's dad. He's recovering from some back issues. And he's listening today because Maddie's with him taking care of him, just like a daughter

would do. So we just want to recognize you. Well, Maddie's dad, I'm going to make your day. Because I was fixed to say this before I was really interrupted by my two cohorts. Maddie needs a raise. You can do this. Give this woman a race. I concur.

There's only one of us in these three people that can make that happen. So I'm saying I'm with Jason, Matt. Next item of my business. The reason I didn't respond or watch the video. that you sent me back is because you and Al forgot that it was my birthday yesterday. I did not forget, but I was tied up myself, Jay, as in the airports.

Al, Faith without deeds. Did you check your mailbox yesterday? Faith without deeds is dead. Did you check your mailbox yesterday? No. I may or may not have sent you a gift. Okay. Well, so anyway, the festivities began.

And by the way, Jay's, just as since you've already thrown me under the bus, I was planning on telling you today on the podcast because I realized it was your birthday in an airport that I am making you one of my famous Al Cream Cheese Pies when I get home for your birthday. So thank you. Forgiven. Great. All right. Now look, but when I got here and sat down, I got to be careful what I'm saying on these podcasts.

Lord help me to think before I speak. I have caused relationships to dissolve. I've caused mayhem in the streets. And I guess I griped about having an NIV version from 1984 because I know where all the verses are on the pages. So when I sat down today by myself because Maddie's not here, even though she was talking in my ears, someone sent me, and I mean look at this thing, if you can see.

they sent me an ESV version with the biggest letters that I've ever seen. You can literally read this from your home if I open it. I mean, this. So I don't need glasses now. And look, this is also a weapon. We know it's a weapon of mass instruction. But, I mean, this is also if someone tried to rob me, if I ever decided to shave my beard.

You could use this. I mean, it has to weigh at least, I would say, seven pounds? Wow. I mean, listen to this. Listen to the sound. All I did was set it down. I love it. So thank you whoever sent that, because now I have an option.

I do study with the ESV. And, you know, it's interesting, Jay's, I was in Mancato, Minnesota speaking this. this weekend as well, which is why I didn't send you a text, which I normally were doing your birthday. But it was at a Lutheran church, the event was. It was a men's day. And I wasn't super familiar with the Lutherans because I haven't been a lot of Lutheran events. So I looked up.

I was just curious. I was like, what version of the Bible would most Lutherans use? And, of course, I guess they're like every other group. They have schisms. So this group would do this. group. But it said, AIS said that the biggest group of Lutherans used the ESV, which I thought was ironic because we use that.

Zach uses that I study with the ESV and I have for years. But I'm like Jace, I'm stuck to the NIV because all my memorization is from there. And so you just kind of have to do both. I wonder if they make one of those ESV. It's because it's more of like the reformed camp likes the ESV version, the best. Okay. And if you look at it. When you get into this, I don't have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't know who the reform camp is because I missed all that while we were at a bar when I was a kid. You missed the reform part? The Reformation is. When people used those categories. I was a little small thing in history called the Reformation. Martin Luther. But it was kind of, it wasn't a big deal. It wasn't a big deal that.

Sarcassism. I'll take your word. Okay. I'll take your word for it. But what I'm saying is I don't want to waste time and figuring out in history when there was some kind of movement. I mean, the main movement that I want to research is the one that happened right before X Chapter 2 and right after. So there you go. That's not a bad place to hang out.

But it is good to know. it is good to know the different theological trajectories that people are on. You take the Lutheran Church, for example, they have had some schisms, and rightly so. The more conservative group, I think, is called the Missouri Senate Lutherans. But they've kind of held to the more the conservative, you know, not, and when I say conservative, I just mean like not going into theological liberalism, which would essentially deny the deity of Christ, denied the authority of scripture, you know,

things like this, that you, and you see a lot of, a lot of the mainline Protestant churches have left historic Christianity, Methodist Church, Episcopal Church, the Lutheran Church,

a lot of the Presbyterian Church, the PCUSA, you know, so I do think it matters because churches will drift into liberalism and they will ultimately, outside, you know, holding the sound doctrine,

they will, but people tend to move to more. Even our wings, Zach, that we kind of grew up in, I mean, they've split into versions. And one of those is exactly what you're describing. So I think almost every group has it. This is so crazy to me because Zach is like the ninth wonder of the Christian world. I'm waiting to see if this is an insult or a problem. It'll be a bit of both.

Right behind. And, Sy, my uncle, Sye's dog. Okay, there we got. She's the eighth one. All are made in the image of God. And you're looking at Sye saying, wow, there is a God. This has been the hottest summer I remember. How is it down in your neck of the woods in Louisiana?

It is the hottest I can ever remember. If you just think about going outside, you start sweating. It's the same way in Gulf Shores, Alabama, Zach. And we even have a nice breeze blowing here, but it's just a blast of furnace breeze. Well, I've opted for like sports that are less strenuous, like pickleball, but even in this hot weather, I'm getting dehydrated and it does hurt my game, get cramped up.

But I got a cure here. It's called Cure. Cure is one of the best tasting electrolyte brands that I've ever tried. It's not too sweet, not too salty, and there's no weird artificial aftertaste as well. It's my go-to, and they've got a ton of trees from, by the way, including peach mango, got watermelon, lemonade, blood, orange, and tropical. We'll go punch, just to name a few. One of the things that I like most is how simple the ingredients are.

Coconut water, pink Himalayan salt, and real fruit. That's it. Super simple. No sugar added or artificial sweeteners. Zach, you know, I've been on the weight loss journey and now I'm in maintenance and cure fits everything I need. I take it every single day. It helps me when I go out and walk to rebuild my electrolytes.

Cures the electrolyte mix I've started reaching for daily with clean ingredients and nothing artificial. it becomes easy to stay hydrated. Find it on Amazon or say 20% at curehydration.com using our code unashamed. That's curehydration.com code unashamed. Just the amount of this knowledge that comes out of you off the cuff is incredible, even though it's completely meaningless to me. There's the backhand.

I just don't even. I have never. Never had an inkling to pursue any of that whatsoever. But I just, all of a sudden, a Jeopardy show popped in my head. And it's like, they asked me a question. And I'm like, I just refer to a guy. Because you could win that. Any question about, I mean, Zach, this is incredible.

It's only in my subjects that I like, though. But, Zach, that, well, you just gave a dissertation that, that, I mean, was so pigletting to me. But I'm sure there are people who are familiar with everything you're saying, but it's like, how do you know all that stuff off the top of your head? It's something that I could never inspire to do. A lot of people do that stuff off top their head. Here's what it is.

I'm always curious of how, and I've always been curious, how can you love Jesus? How can a denomination, you know, be on, the track following Christ, disciples of Christ, and then how does the drift into apostasy happen? Like,

I've always been very curious of that. So I have studied a lot of church history just honestly out of the own curiosity. I don't want that to happen to me. I mean, I don't want to... But how did you retain that? It's so impressive.

But look, this is actually the perfect backdrop for a reset of James. Hey, Al, don't forget, by the way, you know, we have something big coming up, a big giveaway for our Theology

one-on-one course that we're taking. We're excited. We're going to be bringing somebody to West Monroe. Down to the Heartland. We're going to pick one listener, guys, to come down to Westman Road to watch a live recording of Unashamed. And we're going to pay for travel and lodging for you and the guest up to $1,000

each. All you have to do is take the Theology of One-on-One-Course with us, which we're moving through rapidly right now. You've got to finish all the quizzes and then send us your certificate of completion. You can sign up and take the course. It's free. It's at Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. It's the Theology 101 course. And then once you take it, you'll get a certificate at the end. And you can upload that at watchunashamed.com. And you'll be

entered in for the drawing. So check that out. This is, by the way, it's been an incredible course so far. I've enjoyed it. I've thoroughly loved it. Anytime you expose yourself to great teaching, you're going to learn a lot. And Hillsdale's taught me a lot. You know how you have, there's two worlds. So you have the world that's under the control of the evil one, the earthly wisdom from James, people who have given themselves over to selfish ambition, all these things. And then you have this new world that Jesus introduced by coming back from the dead, paying the penalty of all our sins. I mean, he condemned sin. He created a new creation. We have that world.

But what you also have, I was going to make an analogy about that off the top of my head. See how I'm struggling, Zach, that you have all that knowledge. I was going to make a funny illustration for our world on the podcast, time-wise, and then what's released to the public. Because we just did a series of podcasts. that will be aired later. The NASFILD. Yeah, we recorded a bunch of key interviews that were like people that were interesting to us.

And then, yeah, we haven't released those yet, but they'll come out soon. That's true. So in our time, the reason I'm setting this up like this, it's been a couple weeks since we've studied in James. Because we, you know, from the audience's perspective, it's just the last podcast. Well, right. They missed that. We just took a two-week. I called it the marathon.

the podcast marathon. But I will say this. They were very good in my opinion. And I tend to be a hope for the best, expect the worst kind of guy. But I'm working on that. But what I was going to say is we did so many events on the bookend. I mean, I was literally on about a two-week run here where I did an event. We went to Nashville.

Then I did another event. I know you did too, Al. But this event that I did this past weekend, which was just yesterday, a day before and the day before that in Kentucky, it really made me think about the book of James, which caused me to go down to the most epic rabbit hole of all rabbit holes beyond the bear cave. How do you get bigger than a bear cave? You know, there are black holes in the universe, Al. created by God. Nothing that has been created that has been created was created without him, Jesus, John 1.

And I went down that one on this idea of wisdom because James is about wisdom. It starts off talking about that wisdom. And it's a simple thing. You know, if you need wisdom, won't you ask God? Well, you don't ask him because you doubt. And then he revisits that in detail, in this two kinds of world, the wisdom world. You have wisdom from the earth,

and there's the evil one in James III, which is where we left off. And then you have this wisdom from heaven. Look, we have four books in the Hebrew scriptures that are classified as wisdom literature, of which that's why I said this was an epic rabbit hole, because I've been studying all four of those books the last three days. But it all happened because of the event I went to.

And I'm a little nervous about sharing this because I don't want to make, I don't want to offend the people I was with because what they do is great. But I think if I share this with you, then you will find this very interesting about faith and deeds. So a community group, non-profit organization, I think it was called Healing Hands of Hope, something like that, they go out in the community, they look at people that are on drugs, and they try to help them, and they try to help poor people and people who can't help themselves and kids that are abandoned. And everything good you can think about that needs to be done because it's a sign. of the evil ones world where it's just the result of sin and poor choices and other circumstances have led to bad decisions.

And you just, what is the result of sin in our world? It's a lot of brokenness. It smashes people and smashes relationships. That's what it does, Jess. That's what you're describing. And you're so right. It does. So these people ask me, and my wife, Missy,

to come speak. Well, in my mind, when I hear these things, of course, I didn't, you know, read the bio and I didn't research, but I looked at where I was speaking on Saturday was at a church building. Well, you know, you just think, oh, they've connected with some churches or whatever,

and I'm going to speak. No, they rented the church building because they wanted to be able to hold the crowd. Yeah. But Missy spoke at a house. house, real nice house, but it was historic. And she spoke to the donors of this organization. And so, and look, she gave a, and they asked her to talk about giving and money. It was a fantastic speed. It was only the second time in my life that I've been in the audience when my wife spoke

to a group of people. And she knocked it out of the park. If I ever get asked, to do a sermon on giving, which I always said, my answer was going to be go ask someone else. But now, if they do, I'm just going to get her outlined and give that. It was spectacular. So I bring this up to say, then the next day, I spoke just to the community. So they wanted to rally support for what they do. You follow me? Here's the weird thing. Here's what hit me. there was, there weren't people from the church. We just came to the building. You follow me?

And I thought, isn't this weird that, of course, we're reading James, the church is supposed to be doing the things that this community group that they're doing. And so it looked weird because I just thought about even the way the churches are set up.

Well, here was my wife. speaking to men and women, a fairly, you know, big, big group. And nobody thought, well, I don't know if a woman should be standing up and speaking in front of these people. You see what I mean? Because it wasn't a religious organization, you know what I mean? It did cross my mind. I thought, oh, I thought she was going to speak to the women and I was going to speak to the men. That was my mindset of what was going to happen, you know?

And I just, it was weird. And the people who, who sponsored the event, like I made a statement, which most of these people that I met were believers. So I'm not saying they weren't. Well, well, right. They were believers, but it wasn't tied to like, and I'm using this word loosely, a church organization. Yeah. It was just, these are people, these are. Because I met the guy, one of the biggest donors, he gave me a ride.

And he just had a look about him. And I couldn't help with the Phil Robertson in me. I said, well, you're either three things. A used car salesman, a preacher, or a banker. But I'm not sure which one. Because I'm telling you that wasn't a hair out of place. At least you didn't say he was heading the other way with your money. Dad used to say that back.

Well, no, how I did say that. I said, and my dad told me when I encounter a man that could be possibly those three things, I need to reach back and make sure I got my wallet in my back pocket. I said that. Were you right in your diagnosis of his career? He was one of the three. All of us are involved in different ways in the pro-life movement, adoption, fostering, helping out with families.

Lisa and I are kind of out there on the abortion side of it in terms of trying to help pregnancy resource centers and the pro-life move, but help people make better decisions. But the bottom line is, I mean, there's more abortions now than ever because of the abortion pill. And so we have to keep the fight going today. A woman facing an unexpected pregnancy can order the pill online, often before anyone has the chance to tell her that she's love, she's not alone, and there's hope. At pre-born network clinics, mothers are welcomed with compassion, practical support, and a free ultrasound. When they see their baby and hear that tiny, heartbeat for the very first time, more than 80% of abortion vulnerable women choose life.

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That's pound 250, baby, or give securely at preborn.com slash unashamed. That's preborn.com slash unashamed. And at that time, I didn't know it was a community thing. I leaned toward a preacher. But I wouldn't have been shocked by the other two. And he said, well, I'm a banker. Which I was, ding. He thought I was a prophet.

And he said, well, why would you say that? I said, well, you're doing, you know, good stuff. So I didn't know if you were financing it, which I assume he was, or if you were going to preach about it. Or you were just a con man trying to make yourself feel better than these cars. He actually turned red, and he laughed about it because I thought, oh, because when we got back to the hotel room, Missy said, I cannot believe you said that.

And I said, were you thinking that? And she said, oh, I was thinking that. But anyway, he's a nice guy. I mean, I shouldn't have said that. But I think, you know, you've got to be willing to laugh at yourself. It was just more of the contrast. And I'm speaking of this thing. And I pretty well looked like the exact opposite.

And the fact that we were partnering was kind of funny, funny to me, you know. But Jay's dad paved the way for you to be able to do that. because that's what dad used to do. And they knew he was kidding. It was dad's way of joking. Because he would sound like he was totally serious. Well, I was kidding, but actually I was right. He was a banker, you know?

And the reason I bring this story up about this fellow is because I said, you know, I was saying, what do y'all do? And then he was telling me, oh, it's a community event, you know. And the other guy that was the guy actually driving was the husband of the woman who kind of put it together. She was the event coordinator who works for this charity. And so I said, well, what do y'all do? And, well, he told me everything that I just said about the helping the poor and all great things. And so I said, oh, y'all do Jesus stuff.

And he just kind of looked at me. He's like, what do you mean? I was like, well, if you read the book of John, that's the stuff he did. He helped them. I just went through the whole thing, which led. He actually asked me about some of the controversies in the church. One of them he asked me about was the women's role. That's why I'm bringing this up.

And because he said, well, you know, your wife is speaking. I was like, yeah, I think we're good on that. Was he pushing back on Missy's speaking? No, no, no. He just asked me about it, my thoughts about that. And it really, it made me think how we. are and you given all those different denominations you know and I just thought what a weird thing to be involved in in our culture where it does seem like what James was getting getting at is

if you're a believer this is the stuff you need to be doing how you treat people that's what the whole book of James is about and here I am asked to do an event and it there seemed to be a disconnect from an actual organized group of Christian people who are doing it. So someone kind of in the worldly setting with bankers and lawyers, people who have money, they're taking their money and they're doing Jesus stuff. And I just found it fascinating. So, Al, you still haven't watched the original Phil Unashame yet, so you'll have to sign up for Echo so you can check them out.

Maybe you have seen it. I actually already signed up. I just haven't quite. had time to get there, but I am super excited about it just to not only hear Dad's voice again in that early setting, but also just kind of see where we began. And to see where we are now, it's probably going to be amazing. By the way, it's just way more than just a streaming service too. There are a lot of movies on their series. I've got, I think we've got Doug Dynasty on there. We've got our podcast, a lot of other podcasts, daily devotionals, got kids content,

a bunch of animation stuff, member perks, a whole lot more coming soon. And this is a place where you can also get every new episode of the Unashamed podcast, ad free. So if you don't like the ads, this is where you go. All you have to do is go to Echle.com. Check it out. You'll get 20% off of one-year subscription with Code Unashamed. That's EKK.KL.com Code Unashamed. Going back to how we started this conversation.

One of my favorite authors is a guy named Francis Schaefer, and he wrote a paper on the role of women in, like as can they be elders in a church or uh and one of the things he said is that it is a watershed movement if once you start to completely eradicate any gender difference in marriage or in like function what would be called uh like the economic function in a church and things like that um and i think that it's an interesting thing that he says he said that actually paves the way depending on how you get there, it pays the way for liberalism to creep into a church because you have to deal with these text and scripture that do clearly state that there are different

roles even inside the church. You know, there's a, there's a role for men, there's a role for women. It is very countercultural if you look at the Apostle Paul's writings. It's very controversial in today's world, but you got to deal with it. And then the question is, how do you get there? If a lot of what I've read that I just, I just have to push back on it is people will say that Paul had a cultural bias when writing these things. And if that's the hermeneutic, if that's the way you're reading the scripture, you're thinking, oh, Paul just wrote this on his own will, he just, he's just writing this stuff out there. And he had no clue. You know, he was, he was biased. If he was biased in that, then the question is,

What else was he biased in? And the Christian teaching about the scripture is that all scripture has God breathed so that the Holy Spirit actually inspires the authors. It's one of the reasons why I push back on this whole red letter Christianity because Jesus never actually wrote one part of the – he didn't write any of the Bible. The red words that are written in the Gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. they're the words of Christ as repeated and as as given to us by Matthew Martin,

look, and John. Then when you get to the other letters, like Peter wrote a couple letters, you got Paul, you get these different authors in the New Testament, but they're all inspired by the Spirit, by the Holy Spirit, who gives them the revelation of God's Word, and then they speak. So wherever you land out on the issue of women, I'm more curious of how did you get there? because if you are telling me that Paul had a cultural bias, well, then, man, the whole, then everything's up for debate.

Everything. I figured you were going to take on that argument. And it's a bigger, I mean, we've addressed that before. I've learned a lot since we did that. Maybe that was, what, three years ago, well. I'm going to first Corinthians. You know, right. I've learned a lot more.

But I think wisdom and having the Holy Spirit, and to your point, Zach, I think people would counter-argue what you said, because I've had these same debates. I'd say, well, the Holy Spirit is Jesus. Jesus is God. So technically he did write every word. But I would push back and say, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.

They are one in being, but they're different persons. I thought I would allow you to answer that because that's what most people would say. And I would add in, Zach, to what you said, even the inspiration of the Holy Spirit didn't just start with Matthew Mark, Mark, Luke and John. He goes all the way back to Moses and writing the Torah and other works that you see all the way through. The Holy Spirit was carrying along the prophets and the patriarchs and everyone else all the way through to get us the inspired word of God. So it's even bigger than just what you said. It's all the way. Here's where I think it matters on a more fundamental level,

even beyond our term hermeneutic, how we interpret scripture, is going to the book of James when it talks about the one who looks intently into perfect. law, the law of liberty, and perseveres. Like that word perfection, be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. There is a tell us to our being. That's that Greek word we've talked about so much. There's a teleology. There's an intent.

There's a purpose. There's a design. I mean, there's a design in gender. Like, clearly there's a design. Just look at the human body. We're not exactly the same. We complement each other perfectly, but we're not the same. So to try to go in and just eradicate any kind of diversity in the name of equality is, one, you're conflating two different things.

Just because two things are different doesn't mean they're not equal in value at all. Yeah, I agree with you, Zach. but where I landed, which is going to take a few weeks to go through, is that it does take wisdom hundreds of years later in a different culture. There's some wisdom that I believe comes from the Holy Spirit because there are multiple connections with the Holy Spirit and wisdom. I've looked up these verses in the New Testament. I mean, where's that one about Ephesians 1?

where he's like when he was in that prayer in the first chapter that you'd be enlightened with wisdom and knowledge through his spirit, you know, those kind of passages. And because situations are different. That's why I brought up this situation I was in. What a weird situation. You're like, what do you do? It's kind of like the other time I heard Missy spoke. She was invited to Mara Lange.

and it was moms who, I mean, basically their whole program was moms, but they had a political side to it. That's why they were invited there, but they asked Missy since she was one of their original speakers to speak on, you know, what it means to be a mom and how important it is, but you know what she was going to give. Yeah. She shared Jesus. And then in that speech, wouldn't you?

know it, here's the president-elect actually comes in to while she's speaking. And they're like trying to rush her off the stage. And she's like, well, no, this is just the guy that needs to hear this, you know? She's like, I'm finishing this. She was in Act 17. And it was fantastic. But what I'm saying is in that moment, here's my wife. And, you know, you look at the, if you looked at it from a church organization, what, you know, I guess what people call in your world, the corporate gathering. And you have the roles of men and women.

Well, here we are kind of in the world, doing something worldly out there sharing Jesus, kind of like this last event. And here's my wife. She's a submissive woman. She loves Jesus. She speaks about Jesus. We're in that moment like this weekend.

I viewed it kind of like a Priscilla and Aquila. We're going out into a world where people have gathered to try to do Jesus stuff. And I thought it was awesome. It wouldn't have entered my mind had it not been a part of the conversation that, oh, she's getting up speaking into a room full of mixed company. I think the thing is, in the context of what you're in, you're not in. a church. You're not in, you're not in, but we kind of were. I know, it's a big discussion. You see what I mean? You don't have to answer, yeah, the dilemma.

I think this is the thing that when you come into a, to a covenant, a church is a covenant community. I mean, you get church, like, you're technically in the big church, but then there's also the context of the little church with, like there's a church that meets in Ephesus. Where do you come over this? I don't come up with this in the Bible. What is it? What's The little church and the big church. Do you believe? Hold on, Zach. Hold on Zach.

Now show me where that's in the Bible, the little church in the big church. I'm trying to tell you. So do you believe that you are to be submissive to, do you think you should submit to the authority of elders? Is that in the mind? Yes. Okay. Do you submit to the authority of elders in every single church across the entire world? No.

Which ones do you submit to? The ones in my community. You're giving me so many questions I'm having to think about my answers. These are not questions that I've pondered. Which elders are you, do you submit to? Whichever one's in front of me, I guess. No, you're not. If I go to church.

Well, I got a multiple churches, so it was a hard question for me. I believe that the scripture is very clear that God has given us the local church that's made up of elders and deacons over that congregation. If you're kind of a member of a member of, like three local churches. Yeah, I would say that's a problem. I'd say you need to find a church. I'm getting rebuked on this already.

Yeah, I mean, well, I think it's a problem of our culture right now is that people just... How big a problem is it? I think it's a big problem. Because what it's happened is church has become more performative now and we go into consume worship as opposed to be part of a covenant community. We're actually held accountable. So there's actually... If I'm not doing that, is it still a big problem for me?

Yeah, I would say that you need to be under accountability. But I'm not going in there to consume. Well, you're also not, but you're also not participating in the church as prescribed in the New Testament. The church prescribed the New Testament has elders and members of that church that are in a covenant community together. The problem is that, you know, that's not, there is a function of a local church. There is. And I mean, the Bible gives us this very clearly. and what I'm saying is I think people have left that

mainly because I'm not saying you're doing this but church has become a lot in our culture very performative. You come in to consume worship. How was the worship this morning? I didn't like that church, the worship wasn't good or the preaching wasn't good. But what is the point? The point of a church, a local church,

is that we come and we gather together and we take the community as a body of people who are submitted to one another in accountability. And that we're actually saying, so if you come into our church and you don't agree with our teachings, as we're trying to follow the scripture, we're not going to be like, oh, you got to be doing this, you've got to be doing that. We have no authority in your life at all. The authority, the only authority that an elder or any church member has for that matter is the word rightly lived and the word rightly taught. And so when you come into a membership of a church, what you're saying is, I'm agreeing for you to step in to speak into my life under the parameters of the scripture. And so everyone in my church has authority over me to say, hey, Zach, you're not acting in line with the truth of the gospel.

And I've given them permission to speak into my life that way. And if they come to me and I'm like, I disagree with you, then now we actually have a prescription in scripture what to do next. Well, now you need to bring back a witness and come back and confront me again. And then if I'm still not repentant, or then now you take me before the elders of the church. And then I go before the elders to church and say, you're still not repentant. Well, then there's a mechanism for that of this fellowshiping that brother. But it's not, I mean, this is a family. That's what it's supposed to look like.

And so when we blur the lines between big church and little church, all I mean by that is little church, I just mean local congregations. local congregations or little C at the same time in scripture you do see the church as a whole that God speaks of the grander church does that make sense which would be just believers worldwide right

well I agree with some of what you're saying but like in my case if most weekends I'm at the little C's in an effort to bring the big C together I'm not I don't think that's a problem it's not a problem

And speaking. No, the problem. I'm saying that's what I'm doing. It's not. No, but you said that you're, you go to, I'm saying, are you a member of a local church? You could still go travel, but at the same time, is there, do you have that accountability structure in your life? I think everybody should have that.

And I agree. Yeah, yeah. But I'm saying, I think there's a case to be made for more than one, you know, but. Well, I want to address one of the things that Jay's, because I agree, Zach, with everything you said. we're in a little bit of unique position because God has sort of used us as, I called us tumbleweeds for Jesus to kind of roll across the landscape. What's ironic, Jace, is the place, what you were just describing your event,

which was different than mine, but similar in the sense that we were using a building. I mentioned that it was a Lutheran building that Lutherans met there. But the group that put the event on was a bunch of radio people. It's called Kinship Radio. And they have stuff all around. They started there in Minnesota, but they're all around the country. country, but they were the ones doing the event just to encourage men in that community. And so it was kind of what you're talking about. It was kind of almost like a, you know,

a rented facility or maybe they just let them use there to do God's work. My question is, to the conversation we're having about Little C, Big C, is do you guys think that the rise of the sort of, I guess you call them Parachurch organizations that are doing great work like Jay's described, the group that I was with is doing amazing work. I mean, by radio still impacting people. It's hard to believe radio still has a huge impact in America, but it does. But do you think the rise of that is because a lack of the church kind of doing her bigger mission? Or is this just a natural, you know, acclamation that after 2,000 years, this is the way God's moving through these groups and what they're trying to do to put faith into action.

I'm not sure where I land. I don't know if it's, I've always thought it was the lack of what we were supposed to be doing as as individual churches. But now I'm wondering, and maybe it's just, this is what it looks like in the 21st. I think it looks like that. My whole point is when you have people from the community having to rise up to be Jesus people. But Jay, they're believers, right? I mean, they're just, I mean, I wasn't going around checking everybody's conversion.

No, and you shouldn't, but they're fruitless tight there, believe. I felt like that, if you just asked my opinion, because I don't know, I felt like most people there believed there was a God. But I do believe that there were multiple members of multiple local groups that had gathered there, which, because the people who were running it brought that up as a special thing. it's like even though they don't agree with a bunch of stuff you know now this is just my opinion but this is what i felt like we're all gathering up as people and giving our money to help these people in need which is why i brought up the jesus stuff so is it a good thing yeah because look

around they're just looking at their community look you don't have to drive by i mean what I'm saying is there's a lot of people going to these local churches like Zach just described. And on the way, they're not looking at the thing has fallen apart where they live, you know. There's people on the roads. You see what I mean? And we're going to go here, do our thing, and then go live our life and spend our money on our pleasures, which is what James is talking about. And meanwhile, the community is falling apart.

That's my point. Yeah, but when you, I would say when you properly identify what the local church is, it actually doesn't compete with the parish church. It actually enables the parish church to thrive and grow. What is the per church? That's like any ministry. Like your organization you talked about, like the one I mentioned, like all the pro-life stuff. Promisekeepers.

Pro-life movement. Campus crusade. I mean, get on the list. I mean, young life. Focus on the family. Focus on the family. All those are paramed. church movement, celebrate recovery.

And so I think what happens in this situation is if you look back at historically, there's a great book on my shelf behind me or he's either over there in front of me called, I think it's called Dominion by Tom Holland. And he's essentially making the case that Christianity has enabled the world to flourish in the most incredible way. I mean, hospital systems, scientific. All these things that the church has enabled. Now, they don't have to be, like, strictly, like, functions of the quote, unquote, corporate church.

But what happens in culture is that as individual people, individuals, like, Zach Dasher gets on his face before a holy God and repents of his sin and asks the Holy Spirit to fill him. And then as Zach Dasher actually lives a spirit-filled life, what happens as a result of that is Zach Dasher's family, the dashers, his wife and his kids flourish. And as that family falls on their face before the living God and confesses Christ as Lord and ask for the Holy Spirit to fill them and they live by the spirit, now all of a sudden they join a church and they're members of a church and they do life with God's people in a particular community.

In our community, our church is called Swananoa Christian Church or Swananoa Church. And as this church now collectively, other families are doing the same thing that we're doing and we're collectively filled with the spirit, falling on our face before our holy God, and all of a sudden, well, that sends to have an impact in your community. And all of a sudden now what happens? Businesses pop up that are led by God's people, hospital systems emerge, medical doctors, education, recovery ministries, homeless ministries.

And all of a sudden, now our community and our town begins, to be transformed. And we're like, what's happened? Well, then we join up with other towns who are experiencing the same thing. And now all of a sudden, well, our state begins to be trans. And the states join up and nations. And then, and then the globe, that's the picture. It's not, it's not that one or the other. It's that the, it all starts with an individual person falling on their face before the holy God and saying, God, save me. And then from that is how, that's how God's kingdom grows. I would add one more to your tree, to the tree you described, which is a beautiful tree,

is that then you get Zach and Jill Dasher, who do, you know, Unashamed Podcast and not yet now podcast that reaches people far outside their community. And then their kids who grew up and thriving in that picture you described form a band called Dash of the Band that goes out to audiences, a lot of them country music audiences, and then sings about and shares Jesus and way beyond just that one community. So what you described is right in the picture of the church. But then what I'm saying is in the current culture,

we have an opportunity then to do even more outside of the confines of just that one community. And God opens those doors for us. And so that is a continuation of what you describe. Because you could make the same, I could draw the same picture you made from a young family that came to a place in West Monroe, was a part of a church that did a lot of great things and taught us a lot of great things.

And then the flourishment beyond that group is what you're seeing now, you know, of a family. What we're experiencing right here, think about the movie The Blind, what we're experiencing right here that was a result of K. and Phil Robertson joining a local church called White's Ferry Road Church of Christ with elders, one being Bill Smith. And so you think, who shepherded them. And I think you think about that story and you see that I actually think this is a big, a huge discussion because I think what's going to happen in the very near future is that with the emergence of AI technologies and large language models and everything that's coming, the role of local churches, and I mean local embodied communities where people know one another, like where you're doing life with your people. I truly believe that we are about to experience a renewal movement and a revival that the world has never seen because it is going to be the only answer for a world where you can't know anything. In a world of deep fake technology, in a world of just endless amounts of content being bombarded at you, you don't know what to believe, you don't know what's real, you don't know what's true. even as we were joking earlier about something and Jay said that said

that's probably AI. You were telling them a story about something happened in Nashville and he's tongue in cheeks. But that's the real world we live in now. How do I even know anymore? And in that world, what's going to thrive is what you can know and what can you know.

I can know what I'm looking at face to face around the dinner table. I can know what I can look at face-to-face in my church community with my people. I actually think the role of the local church is not only essential for the history of the church in the past, I think the role of the local church is going to be essential for the coming of the kingdom of God in the future, particularly with AI.

We're in a very unique position right now to win. In the book of James, he comes at it from a different angle. And all I'm saying is, because he obviously was familiar with elders because he brings them up in the last chapter. He is one. He's one as he's writing. Exactly. If it's James, the one from Acts 15. Look, cultures are different.

Time passes. There is a principle that James lays out about how you view and treat people in the world. Yep. And that's what he's addressing. And the key component to how to go about doing that is wisdom from God. And so all I'm saying is I look at the American model just as a whole. And I see the very words James has said, and I gave you that illustration for that purpose. This is what's happening.

You can say, well, it's supposed to be this. That's supposed to be. We're all supposed to be at a local church, and we're supposed to then do Jesus stuff. but it just eerily seems like the same thing that was happening in James's day is happening now. You can talk about, you know, the reasons that I was just wanting to focus on. I think the hub of what James is saying instead of it being a book where most religious people go to argue about which local church is right and which one is wrong. That's what's happening. they're missing as they're driving to the building to say, I got it, we got it right,

they're missing what's going on in the community around them. To me, that's the point. And I don't see any change whatsoever from what he's depicting and what's happening as a whole. There are some exceptions. But as a whole, you're seeing it. And I think that's why these types of things are happening, where it's just weird. Because look, think about it, Al, I get up. It's a Saturday morning.

I get up and speak at a church. I'm not a preacher, like, representing that church. The people sitting in the audience, as far as I know, they're not members of that church building. I met no one who actually owned the building. You follow me? They just rented it. Same as me. And I was like, and it was a Saturday.

It wasn't even a Sunday. And I thought, now, in this weird, that's how I started this. I said, isn't that weird that everybody in here sitting in this building? Probably not members here. I'm not the preacher here. It's not even Sunday. And we're just trying to figure out how we can help the people in this community who are suffering. And, I mean, it was just a strange, it was a strange occurrence for me.

I did, I did, and mine was the exact same way. In fact, as I'm leaving, the people are coming in, the little, you know, put things back people, and they were getting it all set up for the next day, which was, there's a group there the day I left that would be meeting there that had nothing to do. Now, in a perfect world, hopefully the next day after I left, which was yesterday, hopefully that same thing happened with the group that actually owns the building. I hope it is. Here's an interesting thing, though, of how these things work together, because not all churches

are doing that. A lot of churches, I think there are a lot of churches, the people going to church, they're looking around the community, they go punch their card in, they leave, and it ends there. That's not the picture I'm talking about of local church. That's religion, man-made religion. I'm talking about embodied life together. And so I'll just tell you one quick story of our church as we end here. We got heavily involved in Hurricane Helene hit this area.

Our church was mobile, I mean, and I don't know how we did it because we were so disorganized. But we were in the lives of people. And there's a particular group, there's two sisters, I call them the math. actress sisters. I actually interviewed them on not yet now Picus. You got to hear their story. It's incredible. And they, their elderly sisters are in their probably 70s. They got literally washed down this river their whole house. And they wound up under like a whole ton of brush. Long story short, like it's a crazy story how God saved them. They have since come to Christ because a person in our church took particular interest in them and has been working for the last

year and a half to try to find them a home. And so we've raised $150,000 to help them get into a home. We don't have the full number yet. And guess who steps in this past week to buy them a house, Samaritan's purse, came in, is working with our church. They're working with a local congregation, and they are going to buy these sisters a home. And so now that money that we've raised, we're actually going to be deferred that to another family that we've been working with to buy them a home.

So I think that, like, you see these big, parachurches, paraministries working in conjunction with the church, I think that's the picture that you see. And James is like basically this given us the, this is kind of the ethos of what that, what the spirit of that should look like. Well, that's a perfect place to close. And I'm so glad you made the point because it's not either or, it's both and, in my opinion. So we'll pick it up here next time. Jay's thanks for that larger, the black hole that you took us down. Oh, I never even got to my point. We're going to get there on the next podcast.

We'll see you next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to The Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.