Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1412 | Skillet’s John Cooper Backs Up Phil Robertson’s Wild Take on Rock Music

Episode Date: September 2, 2026

John Cooper of Skillet recruits the Robertsons for his plan to reclaim music and culture for Jesus. John reflects on meeting Phil during his Alzheimer’s journey and learning Skillet’s music helped inspire a Duck Commander cameraman’s dramatic transformation. Jase, Al, and Zach also compare Skillet’s path through Christian rock with the criticism the Robertsons faced on ‘Duck Dynasty,’ while exploring anxiety, identity, and the enemy’s distortion of God’s creation. In this episode: John 14:15; Luke 15:4; John 4:10-14; Colossians 3:23; 1 Samuel 16:23; John 10:10; Galatians 5:1; Psalm 34:8; Genesis 1:27; Genesis 4:21; Psalm 127:1 “Unashamed” Episode 1412 is sponsored by: https://chministries.org/unashamed - Get a better solution at half the cost of traditional healthcare!  https://duckstamp.com/unashamed - Get your digital duck stamp online and keep it right on your phone! https://ponchooutdoors.com/unashamed - Get $10 off your first order and free shipping when you enter your email! http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ - Sign up now for free, and join the Unashamed hosts every Friday for Unashamed Academy Powered by Hillsdale College Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Chapters 0:00 John Cooper Remembers Phil 5:17 Skillet’s Robertson Connection 12:57 John’s First Christian Rock Concert 21:05 How Skillet Got Its Name 25:32 Taking Back What Evil Distorts 30:44 ‘Duck Dynasty’ Defies Reality TV 36:34 Skillet’s Secret to Longevity 42:35 Anxiety, Identity & After the Storm 49:15 The Weight Crushing Young People 54:03 Why the Gospel Is Breaking Through - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. And we got an old friend back today. And it's interesting because it's an old friend for me. But it's going to be a new friend for you, Jace, and Zach. Yep. Because I didn't really.

So I woke up early this morning. I saw we were having John Cooper from Skillet back on the podcast. Welcome back, John. Thank you. I just want to make sure everybody listening knows. I'm not old. It's just that we're young. I'm feeling young, baby.

We're not getting any younger. I love it. Conflict right off the bat. We're old. We're old. We're getting there. You had an old three-year-old friend. So I watched the podcast, John, that when you came on three years ago, you had a new book out that was, what was it,

Wimpy, Week, and Woke is the name of the book. Wimpy, Week, and Woke. I like how you think already as long as you're attacking some of those things. W-W. Oh, he attacked. And it was so good. And it was interesting, John, because obviously we didn't know when you were on with us that time that we didn't have, but, you know, just a year and a half left with our dad.

He was already in the early stages of his Alzheimer's even then, and we were just kind of starting to recognize it. And I could see it more, to be honest, going back and watching that podcast, just kind of the way he reacted to things. But you got to be on with him, you know. and you got to experience him, which was really great. And on there, we talked about even you losing your mom when you were 15 to cancer. And so I was going to ask you right off the bat before I get Jason, Zach's take on you, now meeting you for the first time. What you thought about that with Dad?

Because I didn't get to talk to you after the podcast, but obviously Dad's a kind of a generational icon. What did you think about that with him on the podcast? Because he just kept going to Scripture. You and I were talking and having a conversation, and Dad was just hammering Scripture the whole time. I just thought that's how he always was. It is. And I was kind of like, man, this guy knows quite a lot of scripture. I thought it was amazing. And I'll tell you what, if I, you know, God forbid, if I ever have to have Alzheimer's, I hope that my Alzheimer's results in me just talking about scripture all the time. That is the way. That's pretty well what happened.

Because that is not, that is not normal. I've had a little bit of experience. in that. It is a heartbreaking disease. So yeah, if that's him with Alzheimer's, that's pretty dang good. But no, I loved it. I was just like, I love being around people who love God. And I think you all would agree that it's good to have a definition of what it means to love God. And our Lord's, you know, I mean, this is, this is it. If you love me, you keep my commandments. So loving God has a definition. It's not something that's subjective and it's not something that we each make up on our own. There is a definition to loving God.

And I know when I'm with people who love God because they love the scriptures, that is how we know who he is. And so when I'm with somebody that just wants to keep going, hey, that reminds me of a scripture, I feel at home. That's good. I'm moving in with y'all. I'm coming down. We're going to bunk together, buddy. We're going to do this. Oh, you fit in with us very well.

Well, and part of our legacy, I guess, is just from an early age, we sit around and talk about various scriptures, and we're still doing that. Yeah, I thought it was interesting that Maddie, when she sent the notes out, she was like, we're having John on, he's been on the podcast before. And I thought, oh, no, I don't remember that. And so I thought, well, it's another thing I've forgotten. but when I pulled up the podcast, I wasn't on it. So no wonder I didn't remember it. So you were kind of my replacement. I did think it was interesting that Al said I was out of town,

but he didn't know where Zat was. That's what I said. Wasn't there either. John was supposed to be there? I don't know if I was supposed to. Well, it sounded like to me from the way I presented it, you were supposed to be there because it was just me and dad and John. He deemed you as a...

Nobody wanted to be with me. Except me, John. I feel totally excluded. I do not feel safe in this environment, and I need a safe space and a safe blanket. John, this is a safe space, okay? We're very sensitive here. I don't know if it is. It's just lip service, man.

But I want to say for Zach gives his take, the only experience I had, and I think this is funny, I'm surprised that, which I don't know if my dad didn't, like, listen to the music before. I'm not sure. Well, one time he said, he said. And I wondered the same thing after listening this morning, because he said, Dan, at some point in the podcast, he said, Dan brought me on his black box some music. Meaning the phone.

I think it was some of Skillet's music. So, because then he went, hey, rock and roll. Well, right. Because my dad was, we were raised on rock and roll. Which we talked about that last. Even when my dad came to the Lord, he would find, like, spiritual. messages in rock and roll music you remember that out of you would always he's like hey the old pink

floyd i think if i could sit down with them i could lead them to jesus because at the end of the day we're all just bricks in a wall and that wall falls down i think i think they're they're they're searching and i'm like and you really like this song he's like yeah it's one of the best Hey, he ain't wrong about liking the song, and he ain't wrong about the other part either. Exactly. A lot of those songs, you could really see their need and want for discovering the creator. But he also, so then there was another genre of rock and roll. And, you know, he's no longer on the earth, so I guess I can say this.

But he used to call it Kill the Puppies music. And he was like, you know, nah, da, da, da, da, da, kill the puppies. So one of our cameramen, we had an experience with your music, and that's the kind of music he listened to. And my dad would get so aggravated. You're talking about like heavy metal.

Yeah, it was so heavy. It was like, I didn't really know what they were saying, but they seemed angry, you know, and that's why he came out with that. They weren't saying kill the puppies, but he was like, it had that vibe. You know, and one of our cameraman who was on drugs and everybody knew it, including my dad,

and my dad just had this heart of never giving up on people. And he just kept saying he'll come around. It's so weird because most people in life when you have an employee and you know someone's own drugs and just in a dark plate, well, you fire them and move on, which was my recommendation to my dad. And he's like, nah, he's going through the process, you know. and this guy eventually, which is Lyle, eventually came to the Lord. But one of the things that he did, it was a wonderful conversion, and he was so emotional. He actually heard me speak one night at WFR.

A lot of other things had happened, you know, in his life to lead him to that point. And when I went to Phil's, was laying in the middle of the floor, wailing, just, oh! and I thought he was injured when I walked in because Phil had gotten a hold of me however he does. And that was just him, like, thank James Ford. He's done to his point of repentance. He was just in agony writhing on the floor saying, I need to give my life to Jesus.

It was so emotional and just raw. But he loved that kind of music. And so later he's like, I found me a band, skillet. Yeah. And his new, you bridge the gap. So that was my first introduction to your music, even though I never listened to it because I always thought he was, well, I was weird, you know, and I thought, oh, there's a Christian man, you know. But he really loved it.

And I just thought, man, what a good outlet for him. But, you know, he likes rock and roll music, and he's found something on his new journey. Look, I'm not, that guy is a solid now. I mean, fast forward, I don't know when that happened, but 10, 15 years ago, I guess. More like 20. Maybe, yeah. So you've been doing this a while. But, John, I want you to retell a story that you told on the last podcast.

You probably don't remember how prompt you for Jason, Zach, in our audience. Because you talked about your mom and her influence, and she was kind of like our dad. She was like, Jesus, everywhere she went. And you got, you know, you knew rock and roll. in their minds, rock and roll music was out of bounds, right? None of that. And you told about Petra, and I want you to retell that story about the first time you thought you were bringing home something your mom could handle when you discovered that band, but what really happened. Do you remember that story?

Oh, yes, of course I do. Yeah, so, you know, the short version for people that don't know is I was raised in a Christian home. My mom was a Jesus fanatic, talked about Jesus everywhere we went. Every trip to the grocery store was more than a trip to the grocery store. It was evangelism time with mom. Or it was, you know, mom getting a download from God. That person needs to be prayed for. That person is going through a divorce.

That person is sad. And she'd walk up to somebody, I feel maybe the Lord saying that you might need prayer for, fill in the blank. I finally picked up on it like. Like, I'm not going to the grocery store with mom anymore. It's getting weird. And my friends, hey, John, can I come over? No, don't come over.

My mom will have a word from God for you. It's going to get great. This sounds very familiar to us. How important is it to get the right kind of content into your home? Well, it's very important because, you know, my grandkids so much different from me. And we had Saturday morning television. You remember Jay's we had the cartoons? That's about all we had now.

everything that's out there on the internet is available for my grandchildren. So I want to make sure that they're getting the right thing into their young brains. And that's one of the key reasons why we got involved with a new platform called Echo. It's more than just a streaming service. It does have movies, series, podcasts, daily devotionals, kids content, a lot of other stuff coming soon as well. But we really wanted to help develop the pipelines to put the content into the homes of families. mainly because we wanted to watch movies that weren't degrading our culture, there weren't degrading our mind,

that weren't taking us away from the kingdom of God. But if anything, we're maybe fostering an imagination for God's kingdom here on Earth. And by the way, Echle, it's the only place you can get every new episode of this podcast without ads. A lot of you guys complain about the ads, hey, well, now we have an option for you. We also have something really special for you all. It's the first 12 episodes of Unashamed that Phil ever recorded. They were never publicly released, and we are sharing them with you all on Echle, All you have to do is go to echo.com.

You can check it out. You get 20% off a one-year subscription if you use our code Unashamed at checkout. That's EKK.com. Use the code Unashamed for 20% off a one-year subscription. I'm so encouraged when I see ideas popping up where the church is actually offering a solution to a major problem in our society. And the rising cost of health care is a problem. So Christian health care ministries is solving that issue for us. It's not health insurance.

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You were getting checks, you know, as you needed them for what you were doing. But we were sending out checks and sending prayer notes and prayer requests for people all over the country that we didn't know. So it was. It was the idea of the church coming together in a powerful way. Families pay one membership costs for dependent children, whether you've got one kid or you got a house full like I do. For 42 bucks a month, you can also add extra protection design for those unexpected catastrophic medical events. You guys can join CHM in under 10 minutes with their speedy enrollment process. Take charge of your health care today by visiting CHMinistries.org slash solution.

At CHministries.org slash solution. My mom was a Jesus freak. And so, you know, I never speak anything bad about my mom. She's the reason I'm walking with Jesus, obviously, first based on God and his grace. And he pursued me and loved me. but my mom was the person in the flesh that most drove that into me. But my mom really did believe, you know, they were a little, I felt that my parents were a little bit legalistic, you know,

they were a little bit, wasn't just that they were traditional, they were legalistic, they were very afraid of a lot of things. And one of the things they were afraid of was rock and roll. Rock and roll was the worst thing the devil ever did on the earth. But the only thing worse than rock and roll, I discovered was Christian rock and roll because I was, and I didn't know this.

I'd never heard of Christian rock and roll. I was at my friend's house. In fact, I'm going to show this awesome mug here. So my friend, Randy can make an appearance. Here he is right here. There you go. He's on my mug. So he's a pastor friend of mine, but he's my best friend growing up.

I was complaining to him one time because he would always introduce me to Metallica and Bon Jovi and all this stuff. And I said, dude, my mom would never let me bring this music home. And he said, well, you know, there's Christian rock. And I said, no, I didn't. And he said, yeah. He said, let me give you this tape from a band called Petra. And Petra had a song in there called Kill the Puppies.

No, I'm joking. I was a man. He got me there for a second. I should have. Every time my dad would say that, he would go. No, no, no, no, no, no. Kill the puppies. No, no, no, no.

Petra's version was called Save the Puppies. It was an inversion. Save the puppies. Save them, save them, save them. Anyway, I brought this tape home, and I thought my mom was going to be very exciting. My mom was a piano teacher, a voice teacher. She taught the flute. We all pled to play piano.

My mom started teaching me piano at four years old. I sang my first solo in church when I was four years old at a massive. People listening might even know what Bellevue Baptist Church is in Memphis, Tennessee. It's a massive mega church. I've called it Fort God. It's like all the FedEx pilots, when they come into Memphis. It's got these, does it have three crosses? I noticed what we've got like a huge cross.

Massive, yes, massive right off the interstate. Now this was before it was in that building, but it was a mega church. And so I was like, oh, my mom is going to be so excited to find out there's Christian rock and roll. Everything's going to be fine. And wrong. I came home with that tape and my mom, I mean, I was in sixth grade and my mom still gave me a buttwop him because she really, she really was like, you have just brought in like a satanic Bible or something or like a horrocks from Voldemort or something like that, you know, for anybody that

knows what Harry Potter is. I mean, they had acted as if I had brought something so evil in and perverse. and so I went to like Bill Gothard seminars for anybody listening to that knows with that stuff. They were just freaking out about music. But anyway, my mom got sick with cancer and she fought cancer for two years. Eighth grade, Petra was coming in concert to Memphis. And my buddies were going.

My parents wouldn't let me go. And I was devastated. And my mom was like, okay, I'm going to take you. You can't go with your friends. I'm going to take you to the show. and if they start praying to the devil or if they sacrifice an animal on stage, this is true. I am not making this up.

If they sacrifice an animal on stage, then we are going to leave the show. I do not want you arguing. And I was a Christian. So I was like, yeah, if they sacrifice an animal on stage, I don't want to go there either. I don't want to worship Satan. Your mind thought, Ozzy Osmer was the lead singer for a pitch. Yes, she not only got Petra wrong, she also got Ozzy Osbourne wrong, funny enough. He was not sacrificing animals to say, but either way, we went to the show and we got in the car on the way home and my mom said,

I don't like that kind of music, but one thing I know in my heart, those Petra boys love Jesus. And that really, I've met Petra since and I've told them that story several times because it really meant a lot to me. and you can't go and watch Petra. Or there's a long list of bands. I hope I'm one of those bands. I don't know if I am. That's for someone else to decide. You can't go to the show and say yes, it's Satanic.

You can't go and be like, okay, I get it now. God is glorified. And these bands are reaching out to hurting people, just like the guy that used to run the camera that was on drugs. It's like, hey, this is a work in progress. This is someone that Jesus died on the cross for. This is someone that Jesus would have gone out of his way. He would have left the 99 and he would have searched that person down and said,

I know you're hurting. I know you're suffering. I know you are needy. And if you would come to me, I would give you living water. You would never be thirsty again. You'd never go after the alcohol again. You'd never go after the cocaine again. You'd never go after the fill in the blank because my love would be so sweet.

It would be better than everything you've ever. tasted. That's what Jesus would do. And I personally believe, even though it's self-serving, that that's what a lot of Christian music is about. That's what I hope that my music is about. Yeah. Well, that's why I wanted to tell you that story, because I didn't even know who you were. I didn't know he was listening to, but, you know, fast forward. And look, I'll confess, I didn't see God's potential in his life because he was making my life miserable. Because every time we run on a trip, I was like, this guy is a piece of work. And he would try to push your buttons, which one of the most profound conversations we had in that relationship.

And he said, I'm really good at pushing people's buttons, but I realize you don't have a button. Because I was just no nonsense. Like, what are you doing with your life? But he was trying to cover everything up. But I just wanted to tell you that because he eventually went to Bible school. He got his family back together. And he's one of my good friends today. And you contributed to that, even though it was something small during that transition,

he liked that music. And he thought, there's people doing this for Jesus. You know, if they can do this. That's so cool. I can do this. I mean, I think it just shows you verses like that, you know, whatever you do, do it as for the Lord, like you're working for the Lord, not for men. And so that meant a lot to me.

I mean, in real life, it turned out to be a debate because we're real close to our black iron skillets. And in our life, we can't live with Adam Jones. I have had more arguments over a black iron skillet and whether you should wash it, even my wife, because she comes from a yuppie world and all. So that's where the conversation went, unfortunately, about that. Because there's like, why did they name

the band's skillet. I didn't ask you that last time, John. I looked it up, but you can tell that story why. We thought it had had to have something to do with some kind of black iron skillet memory in your life because, because like if I was going to a deserted island, you know, and you couldn't take, you only could take four things or whatever. A black iron skillet would be up there at the top. But go ahead and tell us where it came from. Yeah, where did the name? I didn't ask you that last time. Well, I'm not going to lie to you. It's really dumb, but I will tell you. and it will not be satisfying and it will not answer any of your debate. No, I thought it was interesting.

Well, first of all, anybody listening, you have to put yourself into the 90s. And if you go back to the 90s, if you're of a certain age, you will probably remember when music, not just music, but culture took a shift into a very kind of a decade of, if you want a philosophical term, I would call it nihilism, like where nothing kind of matters. but what it kind of looked like was that people were like, I don't really care. There's nothing to live for. And I don't, people stopped, they started dressing in like, you know, like the Seattle grunge look,

music changed. And for music, it was almost like, if you put too much thought into the way you look, then you're not cool. And if you put too much thought into your band name, then you're not cool. So all these weird band names started coming up that kind of were nonsensical,

like just random, the sound. random, better. Yeah. Yeah, corn. And they all had numbers, third eye blind, and blink 182. They were like numbers and letters and colors. And so skillet was in that era.

And it basically just started because skillet was a side project of different bands. And somebody said, hey, that's funny. You guys took members from all kinds of different music. It was almost like you threw it into a skillet like you were making up something new, like an omelet or something. And somebody said, you should call it skillet. That'd be funny. And I said, yes, it's fine with me.

It won't last very long. 30 years later, I'm stuck with this stupid name. We love the iron skill. We love the iron skill at that. That's right. We all got that thing in our closet, that shirt that we just keep reaching for. So I'm assuming that for you, it's the old poncho, because you both have one, your poncho polos.

You know, they've come a long way when it comes to fashion, because I'm all about comfort. Yeah. If we're going to wear clothes, do it comfortably and poncho has knocked it out of the park on that. Well, the cuts are so perfect because most shirts are binding in some place that makes you uncomfortable. These, no. I mean, it feels like every cut is just what it's supposed to be. Very comfortable. Pancho is a men's outdoor performance shirt. It doesn't look like one though. You can wear it to hunt, the fish, to grab dinner

afterwards and you still wouldn't put together because they have nailed the fit. No tight armpits, no boxy feel, regular, slim, tall. They've got you cover. They've got option. Pancho shirts are lightweight, breathable, dry fast, and they also have a UPF of 50 plus built right in. Some styles come with smart little details too, like a hidden zipper pocket, sunglasses holder, even a little built-in lens to wipe your glasses off. And once you try them, don't be surprised when you're back ordering more. I've got a closet full gear up for the summer. Actually, we're heading into the fall now with poncho.

Got a poncho outdoors.com slash unashamed and enter your email to get $10 off and free shipping. on your first order. That's P-O-N-C-H-O outdoors.com slash unashamed. Head on over there. Drop in your email and you'll get $10 off and free shipping. And once you try them, you'll get why, well, we've got a closet for it. Yeah, man, I love what you just said so much. I'd love to unpack that because you got me thinking, you know, as I've understood the Bible, and it sounds like we're in total alignment on this, as I've understood the Bible,

it's that the enemy has perverted all of these things that God created that God said were good. And that means that the devil doesn't create stuff. He distorts stuff, right? So he sows in lies and he just messes stuff up. Christ comes to earth. And with the birth of Jesus, the earth is invaded with the kingdom of God. And all of a sudden, everywhere Jesus goes, he begins to preach the message, the gospel of the kingdom. And part of that gospel of the kingdom

and what Jesus is doing is that he is undoing the works of the evil one. So he is undoing this thing. So we see him healing sickness. And we see him touching these things. And now, as I've understood it, the job of the church, all of us, we are to preach the gospel. Of course, that's the most important thing because it's the gospel of Christ that sets us free from sin, from death. We were preaching that good news. But part of that also is that we begin to undo the evil things that the enemy has done, which is distorted what God called good. So in a certain way, we are taking back things, if you will, kind of like taking it back from the enemy, and we are putting it back under the feet of Jesus. And for some people, that might sound super duper theological or philosophical, but all that

that means is this. That means that God has, oh, this is so good. I get very excited about this. That means that God has a beautiful intention for music. And it has been distorted. And so now we take it back and we begin to use music again for that beautiful intention. And we see some of that intention already through the Old Testament. We see it with a young David where he goes and he plays his harp for the King Saul. Because King Saul was being demonized basically. And, and the demons would flee when he would play. We see all these great things. We see the worshippers put on the front line of battle.

So we know there's something powerful about worshiping God and about singing songs. A lot of Christians aren't aware of that even the Psalms, you know, like when you read the book of Psalms, those are actually songs that people sang to God. So when we read Psalms, we're actually reading things that historically the Jewish nation was singing because they were reminding themselves of the test. testimonies of the faithful God, Yahweh, who never, ever, ever let them down, always showed himself strong that he would not leave his people, he would not forsake his people. And they're singing these testimonies to remind themselves of this good God.

And so with music or with business and et cetera, et cetera, what you will find in Christianity, this is what skill is tried to do. I'm not saying we've done it well, but we have tried to is say, okay, let's take what the devil distorted and use it for good. And that is why we might get surprised when Jesus reaches somebody that is running a camera for a podcast or from a ministry. Somebody you thought could never reach out and they go, they go, oh my gosh, I got, I heard the gospel message from these country hicks to do this podcast, no offense. You know, I heard the gospel from this rock band. I didn't even, couldn't even tell the words they were saying, but I heard it and I knew it. We all.

have these crazy testimonies of how God reached out to us because he is always at work in all times for our good. He is he is chasing after us through all sorts of means that no one would ever expect, sometimes in the mundane things of life, just because Christians are being faithful. So that's an encouragement to parents. Anybody listening to this is if you're a plumber, you're an electrician, you're a school teacher, you're a mom at home, you're a dad. this is an encouragement for you as you go through your day to just be used by God to undo the works of the devil and whatever little seemingly mundane things that is and God will do everyday miracles through the gospel. Yeah, none of those places, you know, it's interesting, none of those places, the plumber, the electrician,

the rock and roll band, the podcast, duck hunters, like none of those spaces in God's economy are actually secular. That is the distortion. The devil comes in and says, hey, this one tree over here, this is the secular tree. This is the one God doesn't want you to eat because if he eat it is the secular tree, then you're going to know what he knows. And I think that's the whole point of the Garden of Eden is God's like, no, it's all mine. It's all meant for communion. And you can have any fruit from any tree that you want. And so you see that rupture.

So then I feel like we spent, I mean, most of what we're doing is undoing. Like you said, we're just trying to undo these just progressive lives that have, have, as a cancer. Even when you see that you both mentioned the garden and the idea of undoing what the evil one came in and sin and decision and choice and death and all the things that it brought. And doesn't Jesus address that in John 10

when he's sort of reframing the garden in this newness of who he's going to be? And he said, the shepherd brings life. I mean, his words bring life in, but the evil one only comes to steal, kill, and destroy. because I love the point you made, John. He can't create. He can only undo.

He can only destroy. He can only distort it. And Zach, you said this many times before, using your kids as an illustration to create, takes time and effort and love and patience and all these things to build it. But to destroy it, like that Lego set, your one son destroyed the other one, man, he can just do it in a second.

You know, he comes in and does what he does. So it's very powerful. Well, I thought about the similarities, John. Even in our show, you know, when we were pitched, the idea about doing a reality show, there was a template for reality shows, which basically is you see the worst of the worst train wreck

that could possibly happen. And you exploit it for all it can be exported. Yeah, exploit it. In whatever way necessary. So, you know, obviously we make this agreement. We're like, this won't work. But it's an unscripted show, which means we can be who we are.

And we were kind of put in a box. of dumb hicks. So they were like, well, they'll be easily manipulated through money. Think honey boo-boo with beards. Yeah, that was the idea of the show. So they're down planning. There was a lot of things. So they come down with this plan and then they meet, you know, members of the kingdom of God.

And we're like, no, we're not doing that. And so I really think it was just the providence of God. that we stood our ground, we were who we were, which is funny. So that kind of triumphed everything. And then you had this weird show, which is like the opposite of every other reality show that's ever been made. This was like a functional, dysfunctional family of rednecks who, no matter what happened, came together.

But somehow the principles of God were there and you could see them. And then they had this weird thing at the end where they prayed. And had like a lesson for the day. And then all of a sudden it was like this rally of people in the country were like, wow, this is like my family. This is like I love you. The reason I bring it up is because what we didn't count on was the main people who were offended by our show were religious people. Yeah. And we didn't like share enough.

You know, we did things that were a little bit, you know, like dancing or whatever. They had a winery. They had a winery. One of them plays poker. You can't play poker. You know what I mean? It was all this kind of stuff, which I'm sure you've had the same experience. And what you do with the rock and roll?

Well, wait a minute. Because our background, too, even though we weren't really raised in the church, but when my dad came, it tended to be legalistic. So it caused them problems in the short term because here's this family. And there's a lot of religious people that don't like, based on an episode, exactly what we're portraying, which they didn't realize a lot of what was being portrayed, like the bleeping of the cuss words that were never said.

They just made it look like that through editing. And so people are like, well, we can't have these people cussing on national TV. And then you're like, well, we actually didn't cuss. They just acted like we were. They just edited that. Yeah. And so it got into a lot of weird conversations, you know, about things. you shouldn't be having conversation. It was really disappointing from our view, because here we are

just trying to reflect the image of God and having to battle the editing process and all the social media, and it starts all these arguments about that. So I was going to ask you, I mean, you've been doing this for a long time. 30 plus years. Yeah, we're talking decades. So somehow you've had to have some key resolve to battle not only that argument. I was just wondering, And what do you think have been the keys to your longevity in this venture? So, Jay, have you kept your barrel duct stamps that you have gotten through the years? Did you, like, keep them as a collection? I have.

So, I mean, we'd go back a long ways, right? You know, it's something that I thought was cool. Not only are you helping just the wetlands and the environment of something we love to do. But it's just, it's cool. It's always been one of those things that was, you had to have it, but they came up with the idea that it was something that meant something over the years. And I think it's what I love about the federal duck stamp. It's always impacted waterfowl hunters. You have to have it.

It's part of the system that helps, you know, provide funding for the government. But it's also one of the most successful conservation programs in our nation's history. Since 1934, duck stamp sales have helped conserve more than six million acres of. of wetlands. Those wetlands support ducks and other wildlife while also preserving places where families can get together and experience God's creation, which Jay's and I've done all throughout our whole lives. Just go to duckstamp.com, buy your stamp online. You carry the digital version right on your phone throughout the hunting season, and then you get the collectible physical stamp later in the mail in the spring. So check them out. It's a small step that helps preserve something

worth passing on. Visit duckstamp.com and get your before your next hunt. That's duck stamp.com. Man, that's super interesting. You know, I think for Skillet, one of the things we just always did was just say, we're going to be ourselves,

just be absolutely authentic. And I think that, you know, if you're secure, I know this might sound like a Bible school, a Bible, what do you call it? I have a class answer. Bible. Yes, Bible, thank you.

Sunday school, you know. It might sound fake to somebody. I really don't mean it fake. If you are secure in who God has created you to be, you don't really so much care about what those people are saying. And so we always just did it that way. I always believe that people would respond to genuine Christianity because it was for freedom that Christ set us free.

And I'm not a slave to sin any longer. I still sin and I need Christ every day. or I'm not going to make it, that is for sure. And I so often do not live like a good person. I don't live up to my calling every single day. But I am free from the power and the chains of that sin. I'm free from the power of death and so I don't live in fear of it. I think the skillet just kind of decided early on not going to really care about those people,

their criticisms. I think they probably mean well. I really mean that. And again, I probably had some insight into it because I grew up with a family that very much believed that rock music was from the devil. And here I am doing it. And I know that those people mean well. And I know that they actually think they are saving people from Satan by telling them not to listen to Christian rock music. And I can kind of appreciate that.

Maybe that's sick on my part. But I'm like, they love God. They're just kind of confused. and I don't know if they're, I don't know if they're going to reach as many people for Jesus as they think they are because they're not relatable. I just find that they're not relatable. Sometimes I find they're not joyful and maybe they're not really even happy.

I sometimes find that these kind of Christian people just don't seem to be happy. And that was the thing about Duck Dynasty. I remember before I ever, I never really knew what the show was. I remember people saying, have you heard of this show? They, there's like a weird family, but they pray at the end. They sit around a table and they pray. I had so many people telling me that. And a lot of them were not Christian people.

You know, there are people that I would like, I'm witnessing to and I desperately wish they'd give a love to Jesus. They won't, but they're watching some show where everybody prays. And to them, it was revolutionary. They sit and they pray. and that was a very enticing kind of thing for people. So I've just found that the gospel of freedom, the gospel of grace is a gospel of freedom. You are free from the slavery of sin.

It is such great news. And you don't have to earn. You can't earn your salvation. So you don't have to try to earn your salvation. And now following Jesus becomes a reaction. My obedience to Christ is because, he tastes so good to me that everything else is starting to taste bad. I don't really want to do that sin because when I do it, I kind of enjoy it in the moment, but then I feel really bad later.

And the feeling bad part is so bad that it's not worth the feeling good part that lasts for only a very temporary time. And now I feel really guilty and I don't feel right. Something isn't right in my life. And I just don't want to do it anymore because Jesus tastes better than that. taste and see that the Lord is good, the Bible says. So that's how Skillet kind of tried to do it. I didn't care about that side. I also didn't care about the other side of the fence, which were people that were like, hey, Christianity doesn't belong in rock music. We don't want you talking about Jesus. We don't like, I never listen to that either. I love those people. I know where they're coming from as well. And they think that religion doesn't have a place in rock music.

They're wrong. They're wrong in a lot of reasons. And one of the reasons they're wrong, we actually talked about at the beginning as you're talking about your dad, hearing Pink Floyd in recognizing there are spiritual messages in this. It may not be Christianity, but there are spiritual messages in this. All music is spiritual. And so spirituality definitely has a place. And they're even wronger, even though that's not a word, but it is today.

they're even wronger because rock and roll music actually was created for the most part by Christian people, people who claimed to be Christian Elvis, Ray Charles, a lot of the blues musicians, a lot of the early Pentecostals that were playing a lot of this music that got infused with gospel and R&B and blues, and then became what we started calling early rock music, even Johnny Cash. So they're wrong on lots and lots of levels. I would just say to anybody, just try to take spirituality out of rock music and see what you're left with. It doesn't work. All music is spiritual.

You're either going to be giving true worship or false worship to Jehovah God. So that's how we just did it. We're ourselves. We don't judge people. We say what we believe, but we love you for free. If you don't agree, no problem. Come over. Let's have a meal together.

That's how we did it. So I wanted to talk about John in this in our last segment. You've got some new music coming called After the Storm. And it was interesting because I was so glad I watched our last podcast because I feel like your book outlined, a lot like Dad's book, he had one in the first of his series that sort of outlined what you see at the problem in our culture. And I feel like your book did that. Like it showed sort of this rise of what the evil one is done to steal and kill for. from this generation. And I almost feel like now reading about your new music

and what it deals with, that it's almost the salve for that. It's almost the answer to that because you're going to see all these mental issues and all these things that happen because of social media and this destroying a people's psyche and the things that matter and even their brains.

I mean, even their anxiety and their depression. So tell us a little bit, tell the audience about this new album you got coming, kind of what motivates. I feel like it's a response. honest to what you talked about in your book is kind of what I felt like after reading both. And I hadn't heard all the music yet. But is that kind of was the idea behind that?

Or where did this come from for after the storm? Man, I love the way you set that up. I have not heard anybody say anything like that. And I got to be honest, I had not even considered that. So it's extremely insightful. And I shouldn't admit that. I should have just said, yeah, it's brilliant. I made it all up.

That's why I'm not good at show business. No, very insightful. I think maybe, so let me say it like this. The EP we're releasing is called After the Storm. Everybody, please go to Skillet Music or go to Apple Music or Spotify, wherever you listen. Look up Skillet after the storm, pre-save the EP. There's a song that's already out. It is called Scream.

I think that everybody is going to be able to relate to this song in one way or another. I mean, the hook of the song says, want to scream. I want to break something beautiful. I think a lot of people understand what that that says. Actually, let me finish the line. I want to break something beautiful because I can't believe that I can be something beautiful I lost. Everybody can relate to that in some way. Everybody knows what it's like to lose something to think that life was going to turn out a certain way. And then the rug was pulled out from underneath your feet, taking it back to what you asked about the book, I think this is really worth mentioning. When we talk about the woke, you know, I love what we were

talking about somebody said about the 90s, the nihilism of the 90s turning into what became kind of known as like PC culture. You know, I think political correctness ended up getting so insane that it kind of created what we refer to as like woke culture. I think it's really worth mentioning that people that we would call woke, the things that we find really problematic, I think it's worth mentioning that most of those people really have big hearts. They want justice. They want the world to be better. They're just going about it in a way that they don't know is wrong and it's actually

hurting them. It's hurting everybody. It hurts society. I mean, I just look at the things we're doing in our inner cities are getting so much worse. And I look at the things that are that the politicians that say they want to help the poor, they want to help the marginalized, they want to help people of color, whatever it may be. And all they do is keep hurting them more and more and more. I was just watching the news this morning as I was looking at a grocery in New York City.

Not that I know that much about this, by the way, but you know, you've got like Mondami. and he's creating these free grocery stores and they're doing one right across from this immigrant-owned person of color grocery store and the immigrant on there is like he's going to put me out of business. What I think we need to recognize is that the woke probably have good intentions. I think that's a good thing to recognize. I think I know these people. Some of them work for me.

They work for me for 15 years. I love them. And I say them, I know you're trying to be a good person, but it's going to hurt people. Well, what happens? Because what they're doing is not true and it's not based on the Bible. It goes against the way God tells us how to live. They end up hurting themselves. And now we've got a culture so nihilistic that doesn't know that they matter. They're looking to matter by doing social justice, but they keep hurting themselves more.

And so the message of this music that we're making is, I want to scream. I want to break something beautiful because I can't believe that I can be something beautiful I lost. I feel like there's nothing to live for. I go on my social media. Everybody's yelling at me. Everybody's telling me how I have to live. The newest social justice thing that I got to fight for, the newest thing I have to believe, or I'm not getting the likes that are telling me I'm ugly.

Imagine being a young girl in this society, a young woman trying to survive on social media, people telling her she's ugly or that she's fat or that she's not this or she's not that. We've got the highest rates of teen suicide, the highest race of teen depression, divorce rates, people growing up and broken homes, and we could keep going. People are suffering. And the answer is actually not in something new. It's not in some new revelation. The answer is something old that is timeless, that never, ever,

changes. And that is, you were made in the image of God and he loves you and he wants you to have a relationship with him. And when you find that relationship and you begin to know who Jesus is, you will find living water and you won't be thirsty anymore and you will be able to look at the other things and recognize it was all fake. It was all a lie. And then you begin to find the freedom of knowing Jesus Christ. And it is so wonderful. That's what the EP is about. I hope people hear it.

They recognize the themes of anxiety, mental health. Life isn't always easy. Just because you give life to Jesus doesn't mean you're never going to struggle with depression. You're never going to struggle with addiction. You're never going to have a time when you don't feel like your life matters.

Of course, you're going to have those trials. But you have solid ground to stand on. and that's what After the Storm is about. So everybody, please go check it out. Skillet Music or go to Spotify, et cetera. Real Canadian Superstore has everything you need this back-to-school season. Save on lunchbox savers like Ziggy's sliced deli-mee products for always 375. And get Life Brand Pure Vita shampoo or conditioner for $8 each.

At Real Canadian Superstore, when you're ready, we're ready, with a whole world and more. I was just say, it's so interesting when you think about coming out of the 90s and how nihilistic that was. And then I think you used the phrase, nothing matters, which I think was a Metallica song. Nothing else matters. And so, I mean, I grew up in that moment. And so you move into the point where the next generation comes up. And the truth is you can't live like that. Like nobody can live like nothing matters.

And so you mentioned earlier, well, you're going to worship one way or the other. So in rock and roll music, you're going to worship Jehovah. His way or you're going to distort the worship. But it's not a matter of if you'll worship. It's a matter of what or who you'll worship. And so we are at our core beings. And I think that's where that anxiety has just permeated our culture. Because coming out of the 90s, we did, we said, well, we're going to just make meaning for

ourselves now. We're going to construct our own morality. We're going to construct our own gender. We're going to construct. Everything is going to begin with man. But, you know, the psalmist says that the one who builds that, if the Lord doesn't, build the house and whoever's building the house labors in vain that's the anxiety that i think the anxiety is that we all kind of feel it but particularly young people they're they're trying

to bear the weight of unreality i mean think about that's think about how heavy that is like nobody can bear the weight of unreality and so now we have a whole generation that believes that i have to not only like live my life in this way i got to determine my gender I got to determine my sexual. I got to determine all this stuff is just sitting on me, and now I'm God, and I have to carry that weight, and it is crushing a generation of people. I wanted to echo that, Zach, because it's interesting, John,

you went back to Genesis 1. We created the image of God, male and female, and then we see this decision that happened, and it's like it goes from a marriage to then the kids, because then, you know, Kane kills Abel, and then you go through this long legacy of Genesis 4 that people will never read. But in that, you find the birthplace of music itself. Because as my dad would famously say, he'd say, John, you're in the lineage of Jubal.

Because Genesis 421 says his brother's name was Jubal. He was the father of all who played the string instruments and the flute. But if you realize where he came from, it's because his dad had a decision to say, you know what? I think I'm going to have two wives. And there's where music became, because here's his kid saying, we need to write a song about this because this is a complete disaster. It was the original sex drugs and rock and roll. Well, I've never heard anybody comment on this,

but I think I can put two and two together and figure out where music came from because it was a reflection of this decreation of what God intended and this pain and all this. And here, would you know it? There it is right there. And I think that's what you're doing. Like, I really love that some of those songs you described, and I was looking through some of your songs,

and you're like, well, who would, you know, you wrote a song about monster, and it's kind of this monster inside of us. But I thought, yeah, there is a monster inside of us. That's why Jesus came to this earth. And I think you're capturing this creation story that didn't just end there. It eventually goes to,

communities and cities and even a whole nation, you see this, think Genesis 11, you know, a city trying to make a name for itself, a country like Babylon, just setting itself upon the decreation that God was the opposite of what he created to do. And I think by expressing that, there's a better way there is a God, despite all this chaos, that came down here and express it and do something about it. Well, I love that. You know, I really love it. And I, I love what Zach was saying. I wouldn't mind just going back to it very quickly. Imagine what it's like.

I know you guys know, but everybody listening. This will help you have compassion on, I think, young people that sometimes we look at and we go, the world's gone crazy. Imagine being raised in a society, in a family, and everywhere you go to school and your teachers. and your friends and your friends' families that you sleep over with and the people you play Little League with. Imagine being told that there is no grand plan for life. Imagine being told that you are a mistake of Darwin's evolution. Imagine being told that there is no such thing as absolute truth or objective reality.

And imagine being told that we don't. even actually know if there's such a thing as sex or gender. Imagine being told that for your entire life and then going to college and meeting a professor that says, hey, guess what? There is an entire plan that can give you meaning. And it is found in socialism. It is found in communism. It is found in the power of this state to create a perfect world of justice. Don't you want people to not suffer? Don't you look at the poor? What if you could find meaning and helping all the poor of the earth and helping people that don't feel like they belong in their own bodies and helping people that suffer because they play sports, but it's a boy that

It doesn't really feel like he's a boy. It feels more like a girl. And by letting the state order your entire life, we will be able to make a perfect society. You could give your life to it. It's so enticing. Communism has offered a grand narrative and an all-encompassing worldview to people. And going back to what Zach was saying, we need to do a better job as the church, as Christians, as parents, we need to do a better job at giving the true all-encompassing worldview.

The kingdom of God does not just say, hey, guess what you're saved? So in your spiritual life, you get to have this 10 minutes with God every morning and you're devotional and it's so cool. No, the kingdom of God permeates every single thing in your life. And so now we have an encompassing worldview to know why I matter and to know how. how to help the poor and why to even help the poor and to know why communism actually does it work and it leads to mass death, mass destruction. It's never worked.

And I do think there's a lot of people that mean really well believing in it because they don't understand the history. They don't understand where they belong. And so I do think we got to do a better job explaining how the kingdom of God is all encompassing. And so, Zach, when you were talking about that in the 90s, I like culture studies quite a lot. I love music and film. And as you're talking about music, think of the Nirvana lyric.

I think it perfectly sums up our generation, which is, Nirvana's song smells like teen spirit. There's a lyric that says, I find it hard. It's hard to find. Oh, well, whatever, never mind. That is the 90s. Nothing matters. It doesn't even- Otto, a burrito, an albino, a mosquito.

My libido. It doesn't even really matter. And they were a revolution against the 80s, which was yuppieville. Everything was excessive. Sex, drugs, rock and roll. Everything's amazing. And they're like, we were lied to. Money doesn't make you happy.

There's nothing to live for. And that is why we have such a, that is why so many people are coming to Jesus. right now. It is a perfect time to be sharing the gospel. We've seen, in 2020, we saw what secularism does. We have seen what state planning does, and it ain't good. Enter the gospel. So let's all go do our jobs and spread the gospel of Christ. John, just as you did last time, I feel like we got right into the conversation. We ran out of time. And Zach has a new BFF, John Cooper. That's right. Because you guys are linking at every level. John, it's always a pleasure to have you. on Unashamed Nation.

It's look for it. Skillet after the storm. New music. I feel like it's so resilient and patient with people, John, which is what you do. Thank you, brother, for coming back on. I feel like we're all brothers from another mother, and it's always good to have you on Anashamed Nation. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast.

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