Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 286 | When Jase Was Busted for Trespassing & a Man Who Forgave His Wife's Murderer

Episode Date: May 31, 2021

Gary Witherall, author of "Total Abandon," joins the guys to share his powerful testimony, his journey to ministry, the story of his wife's death as a modern martyr for Jesus, and the moment he found the capacity to forgive the man who murdered her. Gary also chats with the guys about the time Phil told "Duck Dynasty" producers he wouldn't do a scene where he got caught by the police, Jase's rules for trespassing, and the time Jase got busted for trespassing to catch frogs. Al closes with a prayer for Gary's ministry work with Middle Eastern refugees. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? In the UK, do they eat frogs like we do over here? They do. But in French, the French eat frogs. This is the French influence, man. Well, Louisiana. And English have a lot of opinion on that. Louisiana has a French influence. I mean, the house that we own, out there, the old house, the guy was from France. And we're like, you know, our family tree. So dad from the Robertson side is Scottish, you know, is our primary.

And then, but mom has a lot of French influence through her side because she was an olea, which is a good South Louisiana. The Robertsons from Scotland, they are known for their jam, jam making. Right. Yeah. Jelly and we make jelly to this day. Contrary to what people think, our tree has forks. A few.

I ate, you know, I ate frog one time, right? And it's quite tasty. But then I saw this cartoon with frogs in wheelchairs. And I couldn't eat anymore because there's got these frogs coming out in a wheelchair, you know, because they lost their leg. Did you see that in England? Yeah. I need to come there. Y'all need help.

It's a funny place, man. It's a delicacy. Well, I've always wanted a metal detect in somewhere like England with the history. So maybe we could share Jesus. Do they metal detect there? Do you know? Oh, yeah. Now, I think the rules are different.

Like, they have to inspect what you find, and if they want it, they're like, it's ours. I mean, you know, I could take you to Lebanon. We could metal detect, and there's different kinds of things. But someone told me that. I found a lot of armor in that. Someone, the word I got from somebody, they said, Jesus is taking, it's becoming a more of a little movement going on in the UK because they, but you know, for the last hundred years, you know, is that true?

There's some, yeah, big house church ministries. Kind of an awakening. Yeah, I would say. I mean, there's some really fantastic things going on in England, actually, and in the UK. But, I mean, my, my energy has been where the gospel's not being preached. I mean, particularly North Africa, Middle East, and among refugees. I mean, that's what I've kind of invested my life in. So to our audience, this is Gary Witherall.

Welcome to Unashamed. As far as we're, as far as I know, you are our first Brit ever to be on Unashame. So that's a first. Well, yes. Sorry, don't have my flag. That's right. Now, we've had some Irish people on here, but we had not a Brit yet. So, yeah.

And so now you were telling us, before we came on air about when you first saw us. So tell that story. Yeah. So I've been working based in Germany and really haven't, you know, we didn't have a TV. So he just wasn't exposed to a lot of kind of TV in the U.S. That's probably a good thing. Probably a good thing.

Yeah. That's not bad. I mean, I had flipped on TV somehow. I can't remember why, but there was this scene at night. And these guys with beers were running. across a golf course, looking for bulldogs, or bulldogs. Clothes, but yet so far.

Bulldogs or bullfrogs, which I've never done in my life, you know. You've never done that in your life? I mean, it sounds like fun. Oh, it is. Especially if you're kind of like on somebody's property, you know. Jay says it's the most fun you have with your clothes on. I don't know if that's true. That's what he said.

I mean, that just, in any case, and I mean, really, it's just, It really tickled me. It really, you know, gave me a good laugh. My kids saw it. So you didn't know people were doing that. You know, I didn't know anything about Louisiana. Yeah. You know what's funny about that episode that you mentioned is that so, because they'll, you know,

they kind of have an idea how the episode is going to go. And, you know, a cop shows up at the end of it because they're out here on these golf course ponds, which, by the way, all those things that happened at some point in our past. Yeah. there's been there's been some you know shenanigans that have gone on but in the episode they dad was with them so they wanted like dad was supposed to get caught with everybody else so so as y'all are getting ready to film it dad's they're like I'll say so here's what's going to happen and they said you know mr. Phil you're going to get the police is going to come and dad said oh no no no boys that's I wouldn't get

caught by the police ever yeah and so that dad so dad winds up slinking away in the episode, which was really funny. But he's the one, remember, dad was like, I don't get, I don't get called. It had actually happened many times. Oh, exactly. Well, just to show you that that's, there's some legitimacy to that. Last night, a guy called me, and we went and we played cards, but he asked me for a secret meeting.

And so I thought, well, what's this going to be about? And so we went in, he was talking real soft, and he said, I found the frogs. This is last night. I said, when are we going? Because it's actually the season is open in seven days. He said, well, it's a golf course. Oh, boy. I thought he was kidding.

He's like, no, I'm serious. When you want to go? And he had a video. He sent his two kids out, which is what I would have done. Because kids can get more forgiveness and establishment. So the kids did the recon? At Bushwood. You know, if there's a couple of kids out there in the pond,

They're like, but so he sent them out, and they actually caught a few just without a boat. And I was like, well, we got to figure out how to get a boat. I mean, it's like literally the greatest scouting I've ever seen. So this is real. Golf courses are phenomenal for frog hatcheries. Right. Because they're the perfect protected environment for them. Yeah, and they're not even that wild.

If they jump in the water, just give them a minute. They'll come back up. He just goes to the other side. side and you just divert. Here we go again. Have you always escaped successfully or did you? No. There's been a couple of bad moments.

Yes. I have been interrogated. I've been really nervous. But since I was sober, every time I was accosted by the police, the only thing that I can explain that they let me out because, yes, I was trespassing. Yes, I wasn't lying, but I wasn't telling the whole truth on what I was doing. and where, but I was trying not to lie. But the only reason they let me out, because I haven't been drinking.

Right. You know, so there, there's a lesson in that. So if you're going to trespass, trespass sober, that's the moral of this lesson. You have a more chance of getting out there. Now, I did have to do a little community service for the, because we have one fancy smancy golf course, and it's taboo. And I knew that. But this guy, there was a creek beside it, and he, he, he,

He motored us down there and he shut off the motor. And we listened and it was just, um, roo, boom, I said, I said, here's what we're going to do.

We're going to wait for a stormy night, lightning striking. I said, and we're going to go on foot. We're going to carry a boat. And we're going to go to that golf course. And so we did. And as sure enough as we,

when we got back to the creek and started pulling the boat every flashing light around it was like we were selling drugs what are y'all doing and that's kind of where they got the idea because i told them that story because what i didn't realize is we didn't have an ice chest because we were traveling light so we were taking off our socks and just stuffing frogs because you can stretch a sock pretty good you know full of frogs and by the way It doesn't ruin the sock. I mean, they'll still be used at the end of this procedure. So what I didn't realize is because my buddy was way more nervous than me.

But in the proceedings of catching the frogs, I had put two little fellas. I had a shirt on that had two chest pockets. Well, both of them had two legs sticking out because I had the button down. I stuck them in the pocket, closed the button, and there was just two legs. and he got so tickled that every time the cop would ask you a question my buddy couldn't quit laughing

which was making it worse yeah cops don't like it this is a serious thing you know you're going to jail you think this is funny and he's like and he couldn't get the words out that I had these four little legs

that are wiggling but they're a delicacy and I think the greatest thing in the wild that you can eat there's no game in us whatsoever. Would you agree, Phil? Top of the line.

Yeah. So I would like to come to England. Let's share Jesus, do a little metal detector, and see if we can catch some bullfrogs. I think so. That would be really fun. Yeah. And do some metal detector, man. I really want to do that. And also have some steak and kidney pie, because you've never had that, right? Steak and kidney.

I'm pretty sure that I haven't eaten a kidney. No, that's what I'm saying. But it feels like me. We have our own food. Oh, really? And in Scotland they have your own food. They have mystery. And the haggis.

I love Scotland. I didn't like the menu there. Overall. That was a big, because we filmed there. We did two episodes there. Did you ever see the episodes we did in Scotland? You were just a casual fan. I'm sorry.

That's all right. That's all right. You had your one moment. I was just testing your Duck Dynasty knowledge. You weren't missing a whole lot. I got a couple of CDs. or DVDs. So, you know, I'll probably catch up and then, you know, come back. Well, we did a couple where it was a, like, an hour long special in Scotland,

where we were trying to find about our heritage. And Willie had this painting that somebody had given him of this person that looked like him. It was really interesting. I mean, it all really happened. So the painting kind of became the focal point because he's trying to figure out if he was a lord or, you know, some noble or something. When it turns out the painting was some fat guy from Italy. Yeah. I mean, he wasn't even anything. He was such an Italian guy, you know.

But it did look just like, the thing looks like this person is like a spitting image. It was a look like. It was. That was a fun episode. So the first time I met you, Gary, it's kind of ironic because Ryan Lee's hanging with us today off-set or off-camera is what Ryan brought you to Duck Commander. Years ago. And I was working for Duck Commander at the time. I was kind of interim in between what I was doing and what I'm doing now, which I don't even know what I'm doing.

My hardest work in an unemployed man in America, I don't have a job. But he brought you there because he said, this guy's got a story that you have to hear. And so I didn't know you at all. And Ryan was not even working for the church in. He's one kingdom director now. But he was working for Merrill Lynch at the time. And so that was my first time to meet you. And we just sat in the boardroom at Duck Commander.

and you told your story and I was blown away, you know, and since that time, you've been to our, to Weiss Fier Road a few times and have shared different things with our church, which has been great. But I really, you know, you were coming through, so I want you to be on here, but I want you to tell your story, you know, and kind of, you know, everything that's God has led you to do, and so we can talk a little bit about your ministry as well. Yeah. Well, gentlemen, it's a real privilege to be able to, uh,

really testify to what God's done in my life. And I was born in Plymouth. And actually, in July, it's 401 years from when the Mayflower set sail, I think. I don't know if it was July, but it was 400 last year, but because of COVID, they canceled it. So we skipped a year. We skipped a year. We lost the year of the Mayflower. I know. And actually, next year, oh, sorry, next month, I'm going to be in Plymouth. And, um, uh, and they're all, the celebrations are going to be in July. So I'm looking forward to that. Oh, that's awesome. But yeah, my dad was in the Navy. And so I grew up by ships with ships and really in the south of England is very different than London or in the north. But in my teenage years, we moved to

suburbs of London. And I, you know, I gave my life to Christ as a kid, you know, as you do. And I I would say it's a genuine faith. But at 17, I was showing off with my motorbike and riding a little too fast on a road. I was doing about 60 down past my high school. Actually, in England, everyone walks home from school. You don't get picked up. And there's no yellow buses. You just walk home.

You just walk. You walk. You're too far away. You move so you don't have a big walk. Yeah. Well, you just walk. or by school, you know. Yeah.

Hang on, yeah, let's take a break. So, I was coming to, the school's on a hill, driving down under an old Victorian bridge, around a bend. And as I was coming around, I mean, I was full throttle, showing off kids, walking home. I don't know why. I don't know why.

I could have just driven a bit slower, but I didn't. Yeah. And I just, I think you always just want to know the maximum capacity of a motorbike. I don't know why that is. Yeah. It's part of being. 17. If you were here around here, you would be a classic redneck with this move you're describing.

Right. And that's what we do here. And they're all dirt bikes. I mean, it's not a street bike, dirt bike. In any case, a car was coming right between us. And in England, you see everybody's parked the cars both sides of the road. There's a car coming and, you know, there's nowhere to go. And so I put my brakes on and the back wheel slid along the curb. And I slammed into a car. the car and the motorbike were totaled. I instantly, I broke my hand, broke, my hand was still on the accelerator, my thumb snapped back. I flew through the air, past a lamp post. That would have really ruined my day.

But I, and I landed on my back, and I looking up, I was on the grass verge, and I looked up and there was one of my schoolteachers. That was in the car? No, she was walking home. I looked up, and I was like, it was one of my school. to you know and in any case uh my my first expressions i can't repeat you know but i was taking the hospital intensive care and uh i don't remember much of it but it was over a six hours surgery um and three days later i kind of um came back into conversation and police came and talked to me interviewed me

and they just said you should be dead three points in the crash we can't understand it while you're alive. They even my, they put a marking around my body. Oh, wow. That's embarrassing. Wow. Yeah. I thought you were going. Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, I had a lot of blood and plasma. Yeah. In any case, my leg was in traction. And, and I had tubes all over the place. I mean, it's really, I didn't look very good. And my dad had put a Bible next to my bed, of which I would not really know what to do with, quite frankly. But I open it up and I mean, there's nothing else to do. I mean, there's no entertainment. I was just sitting there or laying there. And I open up in this, the passage called the Magnificat, which is where Mary finds out she's going to be the mother of God,

you know? Yeah. And her psalm there says, basically in my language at 17 was, who am I that you would look upon me? Who am I that you would spare my life? And somehow, I don't know, is this a miracle in heaven? I'm going to find out. But Lord, let me know that I should have been killed and that he spared my life. And right there, I just said, Lord, dedicate my life to you. And you've given life back to me.

Now I'll give it to you. And that began a journey into ministry. I mean, I'm really not, I'm just very average character. I have no right being here. But I, I join a mission organization that has ships. I wanted to be in the Navy, my dad was the Navy. But I joined this missionary ship that goes all around the world. Right now we have a ship's called Logos Hope.

Over a million people hear the gospel on board that ship every year. It's pretty amazing. So you can read it. So logos, Zach, do that? That come from John 1-1. Yep. In the beginning was the word. That's it.

That's it. The other logos. And in English we say logos. Logos. And Americans, Lagos. Lagos. So if I speak in England, will I need an interpreter? You might do.

Okay. You might do. Especially some of those beautiful phrases that you come up with. You do realize that, Gary, once we got on this side of the pond, we kind of dumped everything down from where we start. I mean, you guys are still holding the stuff. standard. We got over here and it just kind of has gotten to what you see. I mean, I think what you've done is beautify the language. Okay, good. I like that. You know, I, you know, I, so on the ship, I mean, I've been in a lot of places and, you know,

I saw a lot of poverty. You know, one in seven people today lives in a slum. You know, you know some of the basic issues of you know cleanliness clean water a bed to sleep on um if you go in you know i was in cairo not long ago and at a youth camp and people were saying what is one thing you would wish for you know and this kid came forward and said i would like to sleep in a bed but they weren't saying that they want a bed they were just saying one night they would like to experience what it's like to sleep in a bed and uh So, I mean, I've, there's a lot of stories. But, I mean, basically, I went to Bible College.

I had been five years doing this for the ships. And then I left went to Bible. I went to Moody in Chicago. Yeah. And graduated from there. And I met my wife at the time. We went to Portland, Oregon. And in Portland, I became a college pastor.

It was kind of really bending your head. here, but it's kind of, you know, it took place. You know, there's, there, you could go back to Portland now. There's a lot of work that needs to be done there. It's a lot of work, man. I've seen that on TV. But let me tell you, it's a great church there as well. I mean, the churches are really strong, and they're really involved. And that just doesn't make the news. Did you ever go to, when you were in that air, did you ever go to Stu Weber's church that's in Boring, which is maybe about 45 minutes away? The city's name Boring? Yes, yeah. Boring, Utah. I mean, a boring Oregon. I know it. It's a good Shepherd.

Good Shepherd. I know. And Randy Alcorn is there too. And it was funny because I spoke at this church. Of course, my opening a line was, how does a preacher speak in a town called boring? I mean, you know, I was told if he hadn't struck all in 20 minutes, quit boring, but I'm in boring. You know, so it's like with my opening, you know. And you know, it's only a few minutes from zigzag.

Yeah, that's right. There's another town there called Zigzag. We've had a number of people, and it seemed to be pretty consistent coming out of Oregon. They drive or fly all the way down here, Louisiana up here where we meet on Sunday morning to be born again. They come down. Well, that was the way of your last people, your generational conversion. Yeah, tell you about the generation. Grandparents and then their son and his wife and one of the granddaughters,

it was three generations off being baptized all at once. So I thought, I have seen that for a while. I told them out of kindness, I said, I know y'all from Oregon. I've been hearing about it in the last four or five months. I said, but y'all look perfectly normal. Yeah. Well, and that's, Gary, what's happened with us is the show sort of built this platform God did

where people would watch it. And in my opinion always has been just what Dad just described. It was one of the rare shows on American television that was a generational show. The three generations of what he described would watch our show and love it. And there's not many shows like that because it's usually, you know, one or the other. So because of that, a lot of people have responded on the face side, you know, post-show because they're seeking or they're searching. And avenues like we're doing right here have given us that opportunity to share Jesus with a lot of people, which has been a great blessing. Yeah, brilliant.

And well, anyway, I got, we, I got married to a beautiful person. Her name is Bonnie. And we were there for a few years. working with the church. And then we wanted to get back into ministry, like as in people who haven't heard the gospel. And there were different options. But in any case, the Lord led us to Lebanon. And not just Lebanon, southern Lebanon is the city of Sidon. So you have, it's very south and it's historic. It's from Genesis. Yeah, I'm going to say, that's a bit, I recognize the area. And, you know, there is the largest Palestinian refugee camp is there. And so we're

ministering amongst refugees. And she was working as a nurse to a prenatal clinic for pregnant women. And there really, there's no medical care. I mean, it's pretty basic. And so this was providing an excellent standard of medical care. What time frame? 2001, 2002. before the Iraq war in 2003. Okay. But the building up to that war, the tension was really heavy in Middle East. And, yeah, I mean, basically there's no easy way to tell my story, but basically she was early one morning working with, you know,

or preparing for these women to come. And a gunman came knocking on the door. And, you know, I don't, obviously, we don't know the details. else, but basically she would open the door and he lifted a gun to her face. And then I think must have pushed her back into the room with a gun and then put three bullets in her face. And for loving, you know, the least really who have no, they have no power. They have, you know, no voice.

And, you know, we were really called and committed to demonstrating the love of Christ to these people, you know. And I'm still committed to that, by the way. I mean, I still have many Palestinian friends. And so, hang on a sec. Let's take another break. They shot her because y'all believe in Jesus? Yeah. I mean, it was in, it's in it, it was, the clinic was above a church. So this is kind of, you'll see churches there. They have multi-levels. So they have teaching English, computer education, and clinics and that kind of thing. So, So, yeah. But, of course, I didn't, I didn't ever, I've never met the gunman.

So I haven't been able to ask him what the reason is. And they never caught the gunman? Well, I mean, some people said he was caught. And other people say he wasn't caught. I guess it's hard to get a read on, you know, what goes on in countries. But I, you know, I mean, I got a phone call, a hysterical. phone call, come to the clinic straight away. And I mean, it was a traumatic. And we were using, do you remember the envelope system? What was that? Who was doing that? The, it's just before Dave

Ramsey. It was, uh, oh yeah. The end. Right. I don't remember the system, but we put the money aside. Everything's like in envelopes. I mean, we were really disciplined, you know. Yeah. And I couldn't find money to get a taxi. And then I ripped this envelope open, which I felt like I've done something wrong. and I rush downstairs and all the taxis of these old Mercedes and I said please take me over to this clinic

and about three quarters away there and it's slowly winding through the traffic hot day my heart is jumping out my chest and the taxi pulls into a gas station because he needs to fill up the fuel he gets out starts talking to other taxi drivers and I'm sitting there kind of like

I've got to get to my wife you know, I found it. So I gave the guy and I started running and it's the last moment in my life where I was naive, you know what I mean, innocent in a sense of not having the story. And it was running through this. And I have it often I can think about this running moment. And I saw there was an ambulance there, soldiers, police. It was already, I ran through there. Guy pointed his M16 right at me, told me stop. And I literally just. pushed him out the way. I mean, I was a crazy moment. I ran upstairs

and then two soldiers, like plain-closed soldiers, pick me off the ground. I wanted to get into the room and I could see Bonnie part of her body on the ground and they threw me in the next room and said, you know, your life's shot.

She's been, she's dead. Oh, man. And, you know, yeah, I mean my, I mean, I can tell you all kinds of things, but basically I was laying on the ground, just weeping. I was expecting the gunman knows I'm there and he's going to come take me out. I mean, I was thinking this is it, you know? And I felt like the Lord speak to me in this moment saying, Gary, a seed has been planted in your heart, and it's going to grow from either anger to hatred or from forgiveness of love.

this is what happened and I just remember starting thinking and I've been doing years I've been in Bible college you know college pastor

I've been preaching on the streets and I was like okay I'll forgive and then I was thinking I'm really upset man I'm like this is not working you know

this is not like you stole my car you know yeah yeah and so then I started I'll say I'll forgive 10 times I'm laying there thinking I'm going to die

I'm weeping I'm agony Lord just said that to me. And I was just thinking, there's no forgiveness. There is nothing in this tank that says I can forgive this. And, you know, I walked into the room. I mean, blood everywhere. I mean, it was an absolute nightmare.

And I all, okay, I'll say this. It was probably in the, and I was there for a few hours because there's the crime scene and, you know, you know, And actually kind of U.S. secret guys came down with armed vehicles and pulled me out of it. It was good. I mean, CNN was there. My dad was watching me on TV. I mean, in London. Wow.

Wow. In any case, I was laying there, and I said, Lord, I don't know how to do this. And I had this really, I don't know if it's the right thing to say a vision. I don't know what the words are, but I was looking through Christ's eyes on the cross. You ever done that? You know, you imagine Christ on the cross, tears, pain, looking out and seeing the crowd, and I look out and I see myself in the crowd, mocking Jesus with all the garbage of my life. And, you know, I could sit here and share about the things I've hurt people, the mess that I've made of my life.

And then hear him say from the cross, Father forgive. Father forgive. Father forgive him. And really, it's something. if I've never understood the cross. I never understood the gospel. I never understood where Paul, even though I preached all the time, Philippians 310, I want to know you and your suffering, know you and your death, know your resurrection. This idea of to know Christ in his death is to know that he loves us and forgives us, you know, in that pain where we might flinch and lash out,

call for justice, he says. You will see her again. You know. When you, when you were telling. She's still alive. Yeah. When you were telling that the first time. When you were telling that the first time, right where you are in the story,

I remember you saying that about the cross. And it struck me, because I've told this story many times since, that when you talked about seeing it through Jesus' eyes, watching blood drip off the cross, down onto that, to the dirt. that was there at the foot of the cross. And as you're having this vision or this idea that there's the blood of your wife,

that was going into the grout of the floor in your... Very disturbing. Yeah. Very disturbing. But I've never... She was laying by me only like two hours before and I'm seeing her blood mixing with the dirt on the floor and it was really... That was quite traumatic because I was like, I cannot get her blood back in the body, you know?

That's right. And it's suddenly a picture of... Okay, Kiprian in the church, one of the church fathers, he says, it's only when the grapes are crushed can we take from the cup. And it's through the blood of Christ that we are sins, our cleansed are washed, you know. But it's only when his body was crushed that we can participate. What amazing text, you know, or an idea. And I think, anyway, I was there, and I'll tell you something, I started worshiping the Lord.

I'm literally thinking I'm going to die because I was thinking the gun was coming. But I started singing to Lord and I said, Lord, I give you my life. I give you my rusty old car, which was always falling apart. I give you my apartment. I give you my ministry. And today I give you my wife. And I lay it all down. I mean, you know.

That's so powerful. Let's take another break. Well, I've never forgotten that part. I mean, a lot of the story, but that part in particular, because it's not. it really helped me to understand the preciousness of blood, but especially of the blood of Jesus. And yet in that moment of shedding blood was forgiveness, as you said. And so that's always been a big thing for me is the idea of forgiveness. And in my story, it's a lot of times dealing with people who have had infidelity in relationships.

And again, same thing. I don't have the capacity to forgive. And yet they find in Jesus a way to be able to repair relationship. You never know whether you're going to be a martyr or not. That's right. The Almighty makes that call for you. You would be martyred. That's exactly right.

Well, when you were saying that I thought about this passage, which I know you probably read before, but in Second Corinthians 4, it says the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel, which is obviously the guy that approached your wife. But then it says, for we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ, as Lord and ourselves as servants for Jesus's sake. For God said let light shine out of darkness, made His light shine in our hearts to give us the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

And we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that all this surpassing power is from God and not from us. Of course, then it goes on to say we're hard-pressed on every side. We're crushed, but not. I'm perplexed, but not in despair. persecuted but not abandoned, struck down, but not destroyed. And this one verse stuck out to me. We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus

so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body, for we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. What's amazing to me is that when you told that story, you basically quoted that verse in that moment of this intense, shock, I guess, when you said, you know, I was seeing, seeing through Jesus' eyes. And when you read something that pretty much goes in line with what you experienced from a guy via the Holy Spirit a couple thousand years ago, I mean, to me that it moves me,

that God in his infinite wisdom, you know, displays awesome things in the worst tragedies, you know, for who we are. And, you know, there's no. no forgiveness without faith. There is no, there's only justice. Yeah. Without the cross, there's no forgiveness. But in James II, it says this, that mercy triumphs over judgment.

We, the antidote for rage is mercy. The mercy of Christ can come in like oil into a rusty engine. And, you know, I can say, yeah, my life testifies that. And I really wanted to tell you this because, you know, I could sit in that narrative. But, you know, since then, the Lord's brought an amazing person in my life. And I've married, we were married, we have four kids. And her grandfather, did I tell you about this? I don't know.

But her grandfather is one of the men martyred with Jim Elliott. Oh, yeah, you know. Jim Elliott. But, and that was the tip of the spear, right? The end of the spear, yeah. Yeah. So, but this guy was, his name was Roger Eudarian. and Roger Udairn was dropped in on the Battle of the Bulge

and fought all the way to Berlin. He was one of Eisenhower's bodyguards. And then he left that, came back to the US, studied. And he and his wife, Barbara, went down to another group in Ecuador, the Choir Indian. And we were just with Grandma Barbara two weeks ago down in Florida. Wow. And she's 96 and still doing great.

Oh, wow. Wow. So my kids were able to, she sang to my kids, which was really just a very beautiful moment. I mean, real treasure, you know. And what a thing you share, yes, that your wife was martyred and yet your wife's now, grandfather, was martyred as well, both for the king. I'm beginning to think you're doing really a lot for the Lord because the spiritual forces of evil are attacking you. Look out of the favor of God, though, was with you. I didn't know the first, I didn't heard the 17-year-old story.

Right. That you would go, that God would, you would open your Bible to this teenage mother of Jesus in the moment where you needed to decide what you were going to do with your life. And then here it is again in the worst possible moment, the murder of your wife. Yeah. He still gives you a clear path and vision and favor that you're not done here. I mean, which is incredible. And, you know, so recently I was just studying. Bonhoeffer and in the idea of calling, we I've been developing this in my life, you know,

that he first calls Peter to drop the nets. Yeah. But then he, down the road, he calls Peter to step out of the boat. Yep. You know, to step onto water is madness. You know, it is. Into a storm of his madness. But Peter was stepping onto a solid rock.

Yeah. He was stepping. He, his footstep steps as he stepped out of the boat. were on rock. Yeah. You know, and we sing that on solid rock a stand, right? And, and, but only if you have faith in that rock. Yeah.

Well, that rock, otherwise, it's sand. There is no, there is no rock. You cannot obey Christ. We cannot obey God. We cannot walk in discipleship without that faith. And I think that there's a difference between being called to drop your net and being called to walk into water. and ultimately Peter, I mean, his church history says that he was hung upside down.

He felt like it not worthy that he was martyred in church history upside down. So this idea, we don't know for sure, but this idea of God calling us into continual deeper experience in trusting him. So Christianity is not boring. And if it is boring, perhaps we haven't responded to his call, you know? Exactly. I love it. Let's take one last break. So I want you to tell our audience a little bit about what you're doing now and also the title of your book, which I've read, which is excellent.

You may have written more than one, but the one where this story is in it. What's the name? It's total abandon. Total abandon. Gary Wither. Tyndale. Yeah, not Tyndale. So look for that because it's amazing.

It's amazing story. So tell us kind of what's happened since now, ministry-wise, mission-wise, what you're doing. that type of day. Well, I mean, the Lord's kept on my heart, you know, the burden for the Mediterranean, I mean, particularly the refugee crisis. You know, you can look on the news and have an ungodly approach, you know, very critical, easy. Yeah. But to love the least, to love the least.

And, you know, they're full. 450 million people live on the Mediterranean in a country. And it's a really unreached place. And so the Lord has called me just to be an ambassador, call people to the Mediterranean. And that's what I do. And we are based in Germany. So I'm doing that and also working with refugees coming in into Europe as much as I can. And influence, be an advocate, and share my faith.

And so most of these people are Muslim fleeing Muslim violence. Is that, was that a fair way to characterize most of the people that you're working with? Yeah, I mean, you know, kind of you could look at lack of opportunity, oppression. But let me tell you this. I was in one city in Europe recently, and I walked in, and there's 250 people there from Syria, and they all came as Muslim refugees and they were worshipping the Lord and it was so intense

their worship was so passionate like you would just I was sweeping I mean I was like I can't you but that story doesn't make the headlines you know you always hear the negative but God is at work with these refugees more than that

many say workers in Europe say that it's through the refugees that the gospel will reach into the European hearts. So I think, you know, we just need to conclude when you see what's going on, particularly with Syria. I was going into Syria for 12 years. I went in Syria, well, before the Syrian war, sharing the gospel on Damascus. And, you know, one time I'll tell you one story.

I was in Damascus. and a guy came up to me and he says, you know what our problem is? I'm talking about Syrians. And I said, no. And he goes, we're the axis of evil. And he is there with his wife and his little boy. And he just wants to do life.

But he's kind of being condemned by the West as being access of evil. And he knows that. It's a common language there in Damascus. And I'm trying to share the gospel and realizing politics as, has so influenced his life that it's hard to exist. And so I think, you know, if you ever hear about Syria and in your heart, think negatively. You know, we just pray for the Syrian nation today. We pray for the believers there.

Almost 10% about 8.5% I think of the Middle East is Christian background. You know, we pray the Lord would touch them, protect them. And that the gospel, there are many ministries, Lebanon, Turkey, Greece, and other countries that are ministering to these refugees. So we pray the gospel will continue to reach these people, you know. So then you're based out of Germany, right? So did your, what's your wife's name? Helena. Helena.

Princess Helena. Did she, so did she have a heart for this when you guys met or how did that kind of? We've done nothing that is not absolutely together. I mean, that's our commitment. And I guess if her grandparents were obviously gung-ho. So she comes from a heritage of faith and family. If she's in a room, it's a nice thing. Because, you know, how do you get married again after this?

I mean, I felt so damaged. But, you know, we're in a room in a church or something and people find out her story. That's the conversation. So it's actually a good thing. And she really is, yeah, more passionate and more dedicated to seeing people come to Christ than I am. Is she America? She's American. She's American.

America. You got to get that. Have you trained her and speak the Queens English or does she still? No, but my kids, see, they're dual citizens. So now it's really complicated because they also speak perfect German. So they got like a British passport, American passport. speak perfect German. So it's kind of, you know, the world's changing, you know. I don't know how. I love it. That's awesome. So is she from Florida? Is that where she's originally? No. She was born in

Illinois. Okay. And her family grew up in Dallas. Okay. So, but she also then spent most of her life in Germany. Her dad and mom and dad were church planners in Germany. Okay. So that's, so she had already German. We were actually honest if we would go to Germany for our work, and it will kind of work. It's just a miracle. Did you meet her there? Is that what you know? I met her at Moody. So I went back to speak at Moody soon after Bonnie was killed.

And it's a Bible school. I actually spoke there. You did? I did. A couple years ago. Really? Yes. They let you in Moody? That's a shocker. I don't know. Yeah. You were wearing your camo pants in the whole deal. Cammo, baby. I wear the camo in case things go south.

I can run and hide in the woods. It's just a great school to prepare people for ministry. I mean, we've met some great people. I said we spoke. They interviewed me and somebody. We were like in front of the school. Yeah, and they just interviewed us. They asked this question.

Right, about ducks? Yeah, that was a couple of ducks questions. Mainly about the Bible and, you know, Just, yeah. Then ministry. And, you know, it's good for you to hear this, you know. I mean, I've, because you invited me on the podcast, you know, I've listened to a few of your podcasts. And just that you're opening scripture and proclaiming Christ from this, you know.

And I think that is, that's what will be all that's important in eternity. We'll look back on how, you know, I mean, life is so short, so precious, right, that we can. Okay, here's a quick thought. There's a guy called Charles Marsh, 52 years in Algeria. Most of the people he led to the Lord were killed in 1920 to the 70s. And he said, life is a seed. And he said, you can eat it. It's a very precious seed.

You can eat it or consume it or you can bury it. And if you bury it, there's a harvest. So if you sow it. Yeah. You know, so you could sit back and say, you know what, I've got the seed. I've got, you know, the success of this, of this TV show. Or you can say, no, man, I'm going to take all this, going to invest it. And that's where the harvest is.

I mean, I think that you might even see the harvest is yet, you know, as you sew in, rather than kind of sit back and sort of, and what a great testimony here. I mean, it is the word of God opened here on the table saying this is the most important thing. And I think, yeah, to be confident and bold with the gospel and believe that it can change the most vilest man and proclaim it boldly. And I mean, that's really when you go on the streets of people have never heard Jesus, they've never read the Bible, they've never walked into a church, they've never met a pastor or anybody. And to say through Jesus Christ, you can find forgiveness of sins. You know, you can find peace in your heart. And your future is, you know, I mean, it's the best message. It's better than politics, are better than, you know.

Well, what I think we have in common with what we do, because we always looked at the show is kind of silly. Because we were happy in Jesus with nothing and no notoriety. but I think what we have in common with you is there's an authenticity to you that you really we really believe this stuff and we're the same way I believe Jesus is the son of God and that he did what he said he did and that he is who he says he is and I think that translates to people when we come in contact with them that this is it's not a program we're not trying to you know, get your money.

And I think that's from listening to you talk. I really sense that. And that's our message of Jesus is really the only unifying message. And so you're describing some war-torn, divided places for a lot of different reasons. And America herself has become so divided in culture and all these different things. And we're saying the only thing that will unify is Jesus. I mean, the one who can truly bring together, the great mystery, right? Jew and Gentile together.

And I think that's why the mess is so powerful, both in what you're doing and what you do. Most of the time, there's complete silence when you ask someone, I understand. Love God, love your neighbor. Here's how it works. Here's the person who brought it forth. And they'll sit there and whether they're belligerent or not.

The question always, I ask them, tens of thousands. But do you have a better story? And they'll go, they can't answer that. Do you have a better story on how to get out here alive, life and immortality riding on it? What's your story? They don't have a better story. This is the story.

We have a special treat for you because it's closing time. And Phil has run his nets. and we have acquired a certain set of catfish. The almighty heard you were coming, where you're coming. It was run the nets over on this side of the boat, and I raised it up and I said, we're going to eat well on this.

Well, yeah. So what I thought. Apollusus cat, do you ever eat an opalusus cat? I haven't. Oh, boy. This is about to change your lap. How will you pray for Gary's ministry and the fish we're about to eat? And I pray for our food as well.

Father, it's a blessing to, to meet people along the journey that love you that have been hard pressed on every side and yet still trust you through everything. And certainly Gary's life and his ministry is a great example of that. I thank you for Bonnie and her willingness to serve and we look forward to meeting her in heaven. Thank you for Helena and her willingness to serve as well in Gary's children. And I just pray a blessing on he and his family, on their ministry, on their mission. I pray for great success for the gospel to go out and many people to hear it and have their lives changed. Thank you for this brother and him being here today.

And Father, thank you for these fish that you definitely provided for us. And we're looking forward to being able to have a blessing together. We love you. We pray everything in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast.

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