Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 445 | Phil & Allie Beth Stuckey Discuss America’s Love Problem & Weaponized Empathy

Episode Date: March 18, 2022

Phil is excited to sit down with BlazeTV host Allie Beth Stuckey to dive into topics like America's love problem, confusing and weaponized empathy, and the political and religious division running wild in our country. Zach Dasher takes a look at obstacles to intimacy, such as social media usage and face masks. Allie calls the churches in America that are willing to compromise to fit in with the culture one of her greatest concerns. Phil reminds us that it's not about Left vs. Right, but about mankind hoping the government will fix the broken world instead of loving God and loving your neighbor. Watch the Unashamed overtime show, only on BlazeTV: https://BlazeTV.com/Unashamed - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? So we are super excited today for two reasons. One is we dump Jace, which is always good or bad, depending on your perspective. But Jase had to go and work on his treasure hunting show. But in his place, we have a major upgrade on the Unashamed podcast with Miss Allie Bastucky, Mrs. Alibastoki is with us today. She's one of our fellow Blaze host, which we love. So your first time actually in the lair, which we're excited, because you've been on the show before.

I have. Yes. But we had to Zoom you because it was during the pandemic. Yeah, all that. It's so much better to be in person, I think. It just comes across a lot better. I don't know about an upgrade, but I am honored to be here taking Jason's place. And also we have, Zach is with us today. Zach has been M-I-A. People have been asking about you, Zaz. It's so funny because you get so much grief from Unashamed Nation. Because Zach used to fill in for me a lot. And so it'd be like, well, it's better when Al's there.

Zach's used two big words. And, you know, they're always throwing them under the bus. And so now I'm getting like, wait a minute, where's Zach? We're missing Zach. Where's Zach? And I was like, okay, all we needed was a little bit of a distance. So Zach is going to be taking Jay's his chair today. Absolutely makes the heart grow fonder.

It does. So tell folks what you've been. been doing just so they'll know because they keep asking me. Yeah, so we're working on a movie right now in Shreveport back in Phil's old stomping grounds. Um, and we're, we've set up shop. We're going to start filming in hopefully three weeks if everything goes as planned. So we've been over there doing pre-production and, um, yeah, it's going to be a powerful story. So definitely stay tuned. We'll let you guys know about what we're doing because we want to definitely get our audience involved in all the pre-marketing stuff. And it's going to take a, you know, take a lot of people to support this and get it out. But it's a, it's a, it's

Powerful story. Very powerful. So what's your take on the story, Dad? What do you say? What's your son? I take on it. It's embarrassing. That's it. Why you only keep embarrassing me? And so because it's from the era of Dad's life where he wasn't a Christian. Also, Paul wrote about his past with, he just said, look, I'm the worst. And I read what he was up to before Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus.

You pretty much was the worst. And I thought, you know, it makes me feel a little better that I was not as sorry and low down as this cat. But so now you just run with it. It is what it is. Well, and you know. Forgiveness is a powerful thing. I can tell you that. We've talked about this before, Dan, because of your such a stark life change at 28, you know, you had those years before that.

And then out of that era, you know, we found out later we have a sister Phyllis that has now. in our life. Yeah. But you know, it's interesting because a lot of the national response to you, even by those that don't like you, was like, well,

he said he was a bad guy. And then he turned it around. So I thought, you know, even if you're, if you're pretty open that you had a past and that you weren't who, you know,

you are now, even people that don't like you're like, well, you know, stuff happens. And I don't know if it's just because of their own personal angst or whatever, but I noticed with dad, that was a lot of the response.

When we found out we had a sister, it wasn't like, oh, guy as a hypocrite. Well, he had already detonated his own time bomb, which is smart. But a lot of what we're doing in the film takes place in Junction City, Arkansas, which you said, you had a connection there, which is interesting. So I've got to... Yes, very small world. So you coached football in Junction City, correct? Yep. So my dad and his family, when he was young, 1970s, moved to Junction City, Arkansas into the house that you had just moved out of.

Wow. Isn't that a crazy small world? And so they moved to town. You had just moved out of a house that was owned, I think, by the high school. Correct. You'd moved out so they could move in. And then he did end up playing for the dragons, but that was later. Did you find any of my stuff around that?

I don't know about that before my time. I don't think so. Just asking. He's still looking for some of that stuff out of it. That is amazing. time. But for why, I met Jesus at 28, after that, all the Junction City was behind me, I went from just a low-down heathen to an ambassador, as though God were making his appeal to us. He's committed to us the message of reconciliation. So where he put me,

brought me up out of that background. Now I'm an ambassador, a messenger for Jesus. Jesus, so it's a, it's a wonderful thing. So a couple of weeks ago, Alibeth, we had a, I was preaching at our local church here, and there was a big bus showed up and it had about, you know, 40 high school girls on the, on the bus. And they all get out, so I was like, hey, so I'll go back and meet them, you know, and they, I like, where are you guys from? We said, well, we came to Junction City, Arkansas for a high school basketball tournament. and so we just had to come down here and visit y'all's church.

So I thought about that, the difference in when you were in Junction City, now people are coming and saying, hey, we want to check you guys out spiritually, you know, find out what you're up to. I've often wondered what kind of, you know, my old buddy, he watched me for 12 years after I came to Jesus. 12 years later, at first he came up and said, hey, let's go up the road. I said, no. I'm not going anywhere with y'all anymore.

I said, you're a fellows who I ran with in the past. I said, you're looking for the old Phil Robertson. He died, you know, and was buried. I was speaking of my baptism. And this is the new one, the new one, no more drunkenness. So hit the road. So they all drove out, left. Well, he kind of kept up with me over a period of 12 years.

Call me up one night. I went to see him. And he said, guess what the doctor just told me? And I said, I have no idea. He said, the doctor said, I have an aneurysm near my heart that could explode at any moment. So I'm hanging by a thread. I have to lose some weight before they do surgery. And this is the baseball coach at Junction City, right?

And he was a biology teacher. And a vile atheist. And I said, well, you've been an atheist all your life. Are you having second thoughts about? He said, I want to know what changed you that much. because he was talking to me 12 years after I was converted. So I shared Jesus with him. I baptized him.

And then about 30 to 50 days later, a month and a half, the aneurysm did explode. So he cut it pretty thin. But he did make it. Well, they called me up, they asked me to do the funeral. And I said, Which you'd never done a funeral. I said, I don't even on a suit.

I said, I noticed most of them guys at funeral, was they spit up. I said, I've never got around to purchasing a suit, so I think he might get somebody that's, they said, no, he requested you. I said, okay, I'll be there. So I go up there. It's a packed house, you know,

and I told him his story that I would see him again. Yeah. That's pretty wild. That was a story. Your dad, I guess your dad may have played baseball. Did your dad play baseball? Football. He played football.

We might put that in the movie. Yeah. You know, I'm sure he'd be, I'm sure he'd be happy to make a cameo or something. He was a teenager when they moved to Junction City. Yes, he was a teenager. I don't remember what year it was. Maybe you would remember when you moved out of that house in Junction City. We left about, we left Junction City.

72 or 3. So when we left that house, we moved, we still were in Junction City, sort of, but we moved up north right on the state. line above it where and we had a bar and so dad went from being a school teacher to run in this bar which is kind of the heart of the worst days of rough joint yeah so he was still in junction city he just we were kind of on the wrong side of town right during this era so we were there about another year before we left so that was right around 72 73 yeah i guess he would have been well he was born in 60 so he would have been like a preteen at that it's amazing yeah what a small

Well, we have a lot of family. My whole, my dad's side of the family is all from Louisiana. My grandmother, we just buried her a couple years ago not too far from here. So, yep, a lot of connections. Well, you know, which is pretty neat. So about this house that you were describing. So when we moved there, I was four, 1969. We were there about three years.

And so from four to seven, that's sort of the year you start having memories. So like my idea, the school was right there. And I viewed it as a. a little small child is just this great wonderland because I had the school, the baseball field, there was a dump down there that I, you know, got to burn my feet a couple of times. But when I went back and looked at it, because I spoke up there a few years ago, and it was this little tiny, I mean, it was so small, but, you know, in a child's mind, it was huge. So it was like, you know, kind of brought it into perspective that how much things had changed for me,

although the area was still there. The house wasn't there anymore. So where the house used to sit is like a bus bar now. So they have like school buses and stuff there. So the old house is gone. Which was my first place that I really remember living was in that Johnson City house, which is fascinating. So Allie's podcast is called Relatable in its own Blaze TV. And also the book, the last time you were on here, we were talking about it was,

you're not enough and that's okay. Have you done anything since then? Are you working on anything? I am working on another book, but it's in the very beginning stages. So what have I done since then? Well, I had another baby. So not a book, but very important. And so I've been busy with that and the podcast and the next book will come out probably fall of 2023.

So we've got a bit of a ways to go. Excellent. Well, and dad, so you did an interview with dad too, probably for one of his projects and you were pregnant. Yes, the first time around. Yeah, he remembered that. But you said he didn't ask you, which I'm so proud of dad because that's so unlike him. I learned my lesson the hard way. You didn't say anything.

And I was like eight months pregnant. So it would have been safe. Yes, but I remember the story that he told me. Yeah. One of the sisters, you know, girl, I didn't know you were pregnant. She said, I'm not. And I said, okay. Last time you ever asked that question.

This Kay got me out in the parking lot. She said, you idiot. Whatever. I ask anybody. I learned my lesson on that one, you know. So, so, Beth, to jump off here, today. I wanted your book, to me, it really exposed sort of our self-absorbed narcissistic culture. You know what I mean? I thought it was so good for that. And I look back and so the last time we had you

on, we were just a few months into the pandemic. So I thought, I want to ask you since you were here and we had a great discussion, what it, over the course of the last year and a half, looking at COVID, the response to it, sort of our culture and how that is. How does that, what have you seen over that year and a half as to what you wrote about in the book at our culture? Is it better? Is it worse? What do you think? Something that I talk about in the book is that this idea that is fed to, especially women, that you are enough, you're perfect the way that you are. You don't need to change anything about yourself, everything that you want, you absolutely deserve, and you'll get it if you just work hard enough.

It's this very strange new age idea that really inside of you is like this perfect goddess. And if you can just do enough work, you'll finally be able to manifest her. And one of the questions that I posed in my book was, well, how is that going? Is that actually helping the mental health issues that a lot of young people say that they struggle with today? Is it helping the suicide rate? Is it helping people be more confident, more satisfied, more fulfilled? It doesn't look like it because those numbers, those statistics for our generation,

millennials and Generation Z aren't doing well. And yet we are the generations who have been told from birth that we are awesome. Now, we deserve a trophy no matter what, that life is all about us. We've had these devices in our hands for, you know, over a decade at this point that have made us feel like everything is about us. So if we are being told that everything is about us, that the world centers on us and that we're amazing, and yet we are the generation that's suffering more than previous generations with all of these issues of feeling unfulfilled and unsatisfied and desperate and purposeless, then maybe what we are being told and what we are being sold actually isn't helping us. And I think that has been demonstrated even more so over the past

couple of years as we've seen a lot of young people struggle more than ever with feelings of purposelessness and loneliness. And I just keep hearing that the antidote to these things is just loving yourself more, is just thinking about yourself more, is just just being more confident in yourself. And the entire premise of my book, and I believe this more strongly than ever, is that the self can't be both the problem and the solution. If inside yourself you are finding these feelings of inadequacy and insufficiency and desperation and depression and anxiety and all that,

you're not going to find the solution to those things in the same place that your problems are found. And so the book is really about how the gospel offers something infinitely and eternal. better, that Christians aren't called to self-attention and self-obsession, but to self-denial. And that, paradoxically, it doesn't make sense to our, you know, worldly, fleshly mind, but denying yourself, thinking less of yourself and really thinking of yourself less, is the key to the satisfaction and the fulfillment and the purpose that you're looking for and can really only be found outside of you in your creator. Yeah, that's, well, say it.

very strong. Let's take a break. Zach, Jill wrote her book, Shallow, which to me has some of the same ideas in it that she just described. Speak to that and just kind of how you guys, you know, try to stress that same thing with folks, especially younger people. Yeah, we were, we were on a way back from a conference, a writer's conference in Nashville, and this was several years ago, I won't say the name of the author, but there was a big buzz about a particular author, and I read, so we listened to her book on the way back, and it was basically, the message of the book was exactly what you said, bootstrap yourself up, work hard enough, you know, live your best life. You do you.

Girl wash your face, all that. Yeah. Got it. Okay. You said it, not me. Oh, okay. But as I'm listening to it, I'm thinking, you know, the problem here is that in the back of my mind, I know that I'm not enough. I mean, everybody really knows that in the end. So, you know, this idea that we're going to bootstrap ourselves up. And I think what Jill was speaking to in her work, same thing is just like, we've got to get, like, we don't, like, I think the message that we're hearing in culture now is, is, you're not that bad. You know, God loves you the way you are.

You're not that bad. And the message of the gospel is that God sees you and says, you're not that bad. You're actually much, much worse than you think you are. Yeah. And I affirm you there. I see you there while we were still sinners and enemies Christ died for us, Romans 5. And I think that's where the gospel is so powerful, especially in the culture today, where we are kind of under a new workspace system of righteousness. But I think it's just appealing to this inner honesty.

Like you said, the pragmatic question is, how's it working out for you? You know, we're more miserable than ever. We're more isolated than ever. And I think COVID certainly exacerbated that. But, I mean, these elements were there. And I think the gospel does provide the only solution to the problem because of the, The gospel is about intimacy. It's about restoring intimacy in us, but the only way we're going to be able to find intimacy is if we're known.

And the only one that we're going to be known is if we let our depravity be seen, or at least admit that it's there. And then let God, like, say, I see you there. While you're in that place, you know, that's where I came for you. That's where I died for you. So, yeah, I mean, I totally agree. Well, don't you think, too, that the more selfish we are, the more. the more it divides us in terms as a people. I mean, because you're thinking about when COVID first happened,

it was a fairly unifying event at the beginning. I mean, you know, the president comes out and his people come out. And it's like, you know, we got to do something out this. We're not sure. And so Americans were like, man, we got to, we got to, you know, do this together. You know, we're going to fight this thing. But it has now over two years went from a fairly unifying event to the most deviant. One of the most divisive things that I've ever seen.

So why is that? I mean, what happened where people went in and said, hey, this is something we need to do together. And then now all of a sudden, you can't. Where did we go from the, I heard them talk about it here, there, what little news I get. But the me generation, what was meant by that? The me generation, which one was it?

One we just come out of, the 35-year-olds? No, the me. generation was actually, I think it was Time magazine that first called the baby boomers, the me generation. And then there was, I don't know if this is the official title of millennials. Here comes their children. The me, me, me generation. Right, I know.

So I don't know what generation is. It looks like to me there's a deficit that took place during these generations coming and going. I'm 75. Love is patient. You're like, that does not sit well with the impatient. Love is kind. Love does not envy.

So you don't worry about other people. I wish I had what they had. I don't have it. I think there's something wrong with me. They seem to be doing better. It does not boast. Love is not proud. Love is not rude.

love is not self-seeking always concerned about you you you you the me generation you got that probably from your parents love is not easily angered that would be a nice world if people were slow to get angry and this one oh my goodness love keeps no record of wrongs like what kind of person would be if I kept no record of wrongs with the people I interact with, I just let it go. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres, love never fails. So I'm just looking at it from watching my generation, the me generation, and their children. I just looked at the whole thing and I said,

no wonder Jesus said the two greatest things that there is is love God and love each other. That's the backbone of what I'm about here. It seems simple, but it is rather profound to practice that, loving God and loving your neighbor. And these qualities would come forth from you. it looks like it would be easy to do but as you live your life you say no it's pretty tough because it's it's selfless right i mean it's well it's it's a description of god

first john four eight says god all this wrangling with within yourself that yeah alabeth was talking about all that wrangling with you it's all about it's this way instead of well to to live a sort a self-absorbed life ultimately is to live a life a life that's not, we're made the image of God, the Imago Day. To live a self-absorbed life is to live a life that's not reflective of who God is. God is outpouring. He's an overflow of love. He's triune because he's triune.

You know, you think about like this concept of 1 John 4th, that God is love, and that's not a description of like who he is. He is love. He is these things. And I try to imagine, you know, this relationship, if you would call it, of father and son. that it's ontologically impossible for the son to manipulate the father. Not that he doesn't do it. He can't do it. He can't abuse his father. And his father likewise can't abuse him. And the spirit between them is this actual person that the Holy Spirit, you think about what would a relationship look like if it was completely impossible to abuse,

to neglect, to manipulate, to position? And it would be one. It would be oneness. And so you think about, you start to explore who God is, and I think, to Ali's point, when we, we're trying to reflect that, God made us to reflect that. And that's why I think people are so miserable is because they're not living in their true nature. Like, when we're self-absorbed and we, and we live these lifestyles that aren't reflective of who God is, then we're going to be miserable. Yeah, she was saying a while ago, you know, it's self-denial instead of self-fulfillment. A big difference. Yeah.

The fruit of the spirit that God gives us when we, by faith, come to it. You say the fruit you'll see coming forth from God's people. Number one, all they, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. You say, boy, and that's why it says against such things, there is no law. It's the way to roll. But it's a pretty tough sell. culture, they just really have not thought it through.

So our job is to on them to the one who's the lover of mankind. So, so, Allie, don't you think, so, so you introduce something like a virus. And then if your culture is self-absorbed, quickly people begin to think, like, how can we manipulate this situation to gain power, to gain, you know, so isn't that kind of what you saw at all levels of government and state government and even just individually with the Karens and the, you know, this is the whole thing, right? I mean, it just spun out of control quickly. There are so many different aspects to it.

One, it was an election year, whatever Trump said, you know, Democrats were going to say the opposite. And so that made it complicated. But I also saw, I think, this disagreement on what love actually is. And you heard one side saying, well, love your neighbor. Loving your neighbor means that you have to self-isolate, that you can't go to church in person, that you have to wear a mask, and you have to get the vaccine, you have to be for vaccine mandates, all of these things. We were told by one subset of professing Christians that that is what it looks like to love your neighbor, essentially saying that if you don't agree with us on these things, that you don't love your neighbor. I would say that is where the real divide came in when it came to the church.

and Christians disagreeing, what is love? What does it look like to actually love your neighbor as yourself? Is it wearing a cloth covering over your face? Because, you know, Anthony Fauci says so, does it mean having to watch a sermon online rather than congregating in person as scripture actually tells us to do? I'm not sure. So that, to me, it was helpful. It was sad, but it was a helpful fault line to see that essentially this is not for the church a disagreement about mass. or vaccines, it's a disagreement about love. What does love actually look like? Of course, I'm not on the side that thinks that, you know, that you have to wear a cloth mask to love your neighbor. You have to disagree or you have to agree with any COVID policy in particular. But a lot of people did.

But I do think to your point, and I can't speak to the motivations of everyone who kind of put out that line that in order to love your neighbor, you have to get a vaccine. But it did come across to me as a little bit more self-serving that, look, now I have to have a lot. Now I have this physical manifestation of I'm loving. So it doesn't matter if you sit on your couch, you never give to charity, you never help someone, you're never kind. As long as you just kind of have this, what's called a virtue signal, I have this mask, I have my vaccine card, I can post about how terrible COVID is or whatever it is on social media, then I can check the box that I'm loving my neighbor without actually having to be loving in any other way. Without actually having to

deny yourself and be like Christ, you can just do the thing that you've said. is, you know, the loving thing to do. And unfortunately, that was very divisive within the church. But like I said, it kind of highlighted a helpful disagreement, a fundamental disagreement between different subsets of Christians. I think that's a very strong point. Let's take a break. And it reminded me of some of the videos you would see, and they were rampant there in early part of some person, you know, in a Walmart or someplace. And somebody walks in without a mask, and it's just like, whoosh.

Yeah. You know, and again, it was the least loving thing I've ever seen. Right. And this one of the, this poor guy is like, I'm so sorry. I just, you know, I left it in the car. But he couldn't even like make enough excuses. And it was just, yeah, yeah. It was like from all sides.

And I thought, I don't think that's really getting the message across. Yeah. It's an opportunity for people, I think, to feel righteous, to feel virtuous without actually having to have any virtue, which is actually difficult to cultivate and grow. It takes a lot of sacrifice. But for a generation that is averse to true sacrifice and self-denial, wow, what an opportunity to look righteous and to sound awesome and virtuous and selfless by just wearing a mask and scolding other people for not wearing a mask. That's a very easy way to kind of, you know, get your virtue points. Yeah, no, I think that's strong.

Well, and obviously, you know, it feels like now we're coming out, although I just had to travel again this last weekend. And so I'm so not used to wearing a mask. So I walk in the airport, I don't even realize I'm not wearing one until I come up to the TSA check place. That's how little the mask means now. And then the lady's looking at me like, I mean, you have to wear them. And I said, oh, yeah. So I'm pulling out. And then I'm on this whole thing.

I can't breathe. I'm on the airplane. And I just thought, the whole time I'm sitting there and I'm like, why are we still doing this here? Like in all the rules and they tear everything and you got a sip and chew and underneath the mask. You just went through it probably flying there. Well, I have, let's see, I have a totally mesh mask, and so it's completely just porous. And so it's not actually doing anything. So if you are someone who thinks that a mask is helping you not get COVID, then you don't want to sit by me on a plane because that's what I have for us.

I never wore a mask and I never caught anything. Yeah. Well, you've got a mask. That beard's quite the mask. Yeah, it works. Maybe it's, but we ran into a problem because people. people would come and they wanted me to baptize them. And I said, well, maybe some kind of rope trick.

I get a rope around you because I have to stay six feet away from you at all time because I can't snatch you on the warmly. So I said, I'll tell you what let's do. The one who raises the dead. Let's go with him and let's just go ahead and baptize and we'll see. But I never wore a mask and never caught anything. Show Allie the move you pulled. The one time you went into your doctor and the woman told you, oh, sir, you've got to have a mask.

Show her the move you pulled. Do you remember what it was? Yeah, I just said, you're talking about it right now? She said, yeah, I said, okay. Well, I just went like that. And I said, all right, what about that? Did she accept it? Yeah.

They probably just looked at dad and said, get that old coot and put it somewhere. I mean, you think about how legalistic it is, though. I mean, it's. I figure baptizing somebody, 100. Yeah. During the COVID day, you would think at some point the disease would jump from them to me. Yeah. Hundreds.

Yeah. Yeah, we took our kids out of school during COVID. You say, did anything ever happen? No. No. I didn't want them to look at a math. I don't think we've seen yet the psychological. I actually had that in my situation of seeing it, like not seeing facial expressions.

Yes. I just, I'm like, I don't want my kids to. I want to know what y'all think about that. I actually have that as my next question is, especially for children that have gone through this. I don't know that all schools are clear now. Most are, but even some still are being forced to wear a mask. So what's the long-term damage of that, you think, just as a culture, I mean, in terms of what Sad just mentioned?

Well, I think for young kids, we're definitely going to see developmental delays. We've actually already seen that. There are some studies coming out saying that there are speech delays. There's actually lower IQs in kids that were born during. COVID. And you know, for a lot of parents, maybe they don't have an option. Maybe they have to send their kid to daycare. They have to send their kid to a school that has, you know, a mask requirement. And so I'm not putting all the blame on the parents. But also there are a lot of parents. I see, you know, there are kids playing in parks in our neighborhood and the kids have masks on and the parents

don't. So it's crazy. So I do think we're going to see developmental delays. I think we're probably going to see speech delays. But I also think that it just kind of creates a culture of distrust and division in a time where division is one of our biggest problems, and we're talking about the importance of loving our neighbor, well, I mean, if you regard your child and you teach your child to regard other people primarily as a vector of a virus, and as safety as the first priority and everything, you are not disciplining your kids to be a self-denying Christian and following the Jesus that touched lepers for sure. But also, I think it just creates a culture of fear in general, even outside of the church.

And that just makes me sad. It makes me sad. I don't think that creates a strong, cohesive society. Yeah, I would argue, too, that I think on the right sometimes that we've taken this issue and we've turned it into kind of a political football as well. And I would, I think we have to have the conversation going back to intimacy. And what are the things that are in our culture that are blocking intimacy? Yeah.

And certainly, you know, me not being able to see a face is a blocking of intimacy. I remember when I first got out of college and I would jump on an airplane and really up until COVID, I'd always talk to the person next to me. And now that since COVID, I don't talk to anybody on an airplane because it's too much work. It's like that. Yeah. You can't understand them. So everyone's just sitting there and nobody's communicating. And then we wonder why Karen blows her top or whatever.

and everyone's so angry or we're not connecting. Even I think that there was a direct correlation with a lot of the racial problems that we've had in the church as well. That all manifested and came out after COVID because we weren't meeting together. Like the church that you're at that Jill and I were at for a long time is probably 50% African American. And so we were coming together on Sunday morning. And we may have had, there may have been cultural differences in the body and all that, but we were coming together as the body of Christ. And it was like, man, we got to do life together and figure this out.

And even, I mean, there's Democrats in that church that we love and that we're, and we differ on things, but man, we're coming together. And then when COVID happens, it just isolates everybody. And then we're behind the screen. And now I don't have to do life with you. Yeah. Well, that's a precursor for division and fights because I don't have to do life with you anymore. And I think it's part of kind of this idea of like, like, even like,

the metaverse and everything is going to moving towards isolating people, keeping them in their home. And I think the church has to come in at this point. And we have to speak a message of not just redemption, but also restoration, that we can restore back local communities and cultures and things of this sort. And to me, I think that's why the local church, and I think God's moving in like small churches again, which is really cool. You know, it's like God's moving these little small communities. And you see it all over the country, all over the world right now. Let's take another break. Well, no, you're right.

And so I speak at a lot of the events around the country, and it's so evident that people want to be together, you know, because, I mean, the enthusiasm level for places I've been. And I've been to a lot of, you know, quote-unquote blue states that have been under super strict lockdowns more than we have here or you have in Texas. And, you know, they're just like, we can't wait to get together. And so it's just like these events are just bursting at the seams, you know,

because it is. it's been able to look at faces again and have conversations and being able to hear, you know, what people are saying and to be able to see that, I think which is powerful. So, Ali, it's,

you know, I follow you on social media. It's very evident that you're pro-God, pro-life, pro-god's order when it comes to gender and, you know, important things that we share with you. What do you see is sort of the greatest threats to,

to Christianity, to conservative, to traditional, you know, life in America. What kind of, what do you see in in terms of your discussions you're having and, you know, with the people you have on your podcast? Well, I think my greatest concern is actually within the church and people who profess to be Christian teachers compromising on things that have to do with the creation order, the created order. Genesis 1 issues, I think really the big one is

sexuality. You see that kind of compromise first because it's personal. People know someone who, you know, is gay or says that they are the opposite gender. And because we don't want to offend, no one wants to offend, no one wants to, you know, be accused of being hateful or something. That's typically, I think, the first thing that people compromise on, not to mention just the, the huge influence that the culture has on people and the pressure that young people feel, especially to be accepting of that. I mean, it's considered not just bigoted and hateful, but you're almost like a social pariah if you don't accept this ridiculous, you know, maxim that trans women are women or whatever it is. And I see compromise in that within the church, absolutely. You know,

people trying to say that that's not really what God meant in Genesis 1 and that we're just supposed to love kind of going back to our earlier conversation about what actually love is. I still see that as a big fault line, as a big dividing line. People who say that love is really just this superficial affirmation of people, just being nice to people, just staying and doing what the culture wants you to say and do. And you mentioned 1 John 4-8 that God is love and something that I like to remind my audience is that we can't out-love God. And that's kind of what you see from some people who say, well, it's actually more loving to say that God did not create us male and female, that the definition of marriage is not between a man and a woman. It's actually more loving

to not say that to simply affirm people. And so what they're essentially saying is that they have a higher standard of love than the God who says he is love. But that's impossible because we're not love, but God is love. So everything that God says is good and right and true or bad or wrong and a lie. He says those things out of love. So the most loving thing that we can do. And this is something I definitely want to emphasize to women who I think are most tempted

in this way of just being like I don't want to be seen. is, you know, hateful, the most loving thing that we can do is agree with God. Yes, the world calls it controversial to say that God made us male and female or that abortion is wrong because God made us in his image. But these are not political issues for the Christian. They're not culture war issues for the Christian. These are pre-political, pre-cultural, pre-sociital issues for the Christian. They're biblical issues that have become cultural and political. And so it is the most loving thing I can do to agree with the God who is love about these so-called controversial culture war issues. And so, again, it goes back to how we define love. We define love by the God who is love in

his standards, and his law, and what he says is right and wrong and good and bad, truth, and a lie. That I think, maybe that's always been the essential problem within Christianity. I mean, it kind of goes back to the garden. Did God really say? I still think that's the question that women, and probably men too, are being asked, did God really say that this is the definition of marriage or whatever it is? And so, yeah, I think that's the issue, especially among young women today, is caving to the culture when it comes to superficial, worldly definitions of love. Yeah. Which is, I think it's a fear of being marginalized. I mean, just confession, I mean, I fear that in my own life is like, okay, I don't want to be marginalized or cast into this particular

category, but, and I think that a lot of people are pushing back on terms like culture war. Some of it, I mean, honestly, though, some of it, I'm like, I get, I get a part of what they're saying, you know, like it's like we have, I think the church has, there's a segment of the church, and I've been guilty of this, of taking these, these things that you're talking about, and turning them into issues and into political issues as opposed to, you know, we're really talking about people, and we're talking about God's design. And I think we've kind of divorced that. And I think it's paved the way a lot of the kind of the, if you want to use the term like the woke left and the church, I think a lot of that is a reaction to hyper-nationalistic tendencies on the right.

Although, you know, we can't avoid to take pride in our country. I think I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I think when we divorce that and that becomes primary over who God is in our allegiance to his kingdom, I think it paves the way for this. And I think we need like an honesty. John Stone Street did a great podcast on Friday on this idea of this identity. But I'm sure you've probably read Truman's book. The Rise and Fall of the Modern Self. Yes.

And I thought he did such a great job at like detailing like how we got here and how we got to this place where even sexuality, for example. How did we get to a place where this is our identity now? Yeah. Like my sexual desire is my identity. I see it on the right too, though. It's manifested in a different way, but I think kingdom people have to come in and bridge that gap. I mean, do you see this as well? Yeah.

It's something I talk about in my book that when you, I think every problem that we have goes back to godlessness. When you exchange the God of Scripture for the God of self, you worship yourself, you lay anything on the altar of yourself, including truth, including other people. interests or needs, you are completely self-serving in the same way that when you worship anything, you are going to serve that thing. So when you exchange the God of Scripture for the God of self, something that I talk about in the book is that you start to take on two main values. And I think that your primary values become autonomy and authenticity. Now, autonomy and authenticity are not bad in themselves. But when they become primary, when they are not submitted to God's law, then they just become selfishness. Then you start to find your identity and your purpose inside

yourself. So autonomy, having complete control over everything you do, authenticity, just being yourself. When those are your two main values, well, I just want to be myself and do what I want to do and I control my body, you get all kinds of immorality. That's how you justify abortion. That's how you justify gender-shifting. That's how you justify all kinds of things that we do with our body because we worship ourselves, we worship our bodies, we worship our autonomy, we worship our so-called authenticity. Autonomy and authenticity can be good things when they are subjected to the law of God, but when you are only subjected to yourself, then, like I said, you know, find your identity and your purpose and your calling in yourself. And again, it goes back to that question

that we asked earlier, how's that working out for you? It doesn't seem like it's working out very well. Yeah, and I know that's that. Let's take our last break. Yeah, I think that's so good. I was thinking where we're at, like, Phil did a documentary film in 2000 and, was it 15, 2015? Yep. Yep. And the essential message of it was built kind of off this, I'm like a Francis Schaefer concept of conservative humanism is still humanism. Like, I think he said it, the problem is not conservative or liberal.

Humanism doesn't matter the variation or the coloration of it. It's the humanism that when we're getting the thing from within us, as opposed to appealing to the triune God. You know, I think that's, and I think the church has, particularly when we talk about politics, man, we're not, conservative politics, if we're being honest, we have, it's bankrupt because it's not founded on the God who is there. It's not founded on a non-arbitrary anchor to reality, the Amago Day, what the Declaration of Independence says that, that rights come from God.

that's not the argument that people are making anymore. It's supposed to. That is what conservatism is supposed to be, but I agree it's kind of gotten detached from that. So I think that the reason why we're losing culturally is because I have a hard time carrying the water for this current political movement on the right because I'm like, that's not of God. Like that's just as evil. Like what? Like, for example, like we're not making the case for liberty based on the God who is there

and we're going to get behind, or get an example, like we're going to, like the bumper stickers, I see these stickers on the gas tanks now, and it's Biden pointing to the gas number. I did that. I'm like, and I'm not for Biden because he spent a lot of money too, but he wasn't the first person to spend money. Well, the simplicity of it is governments, man-made constructs,

governments. The problem with them, as it's been proven over and all, the empires rise and all of them collapse it's because governments can't remove your sin and governments can't raise you from the dead it's not possible so somewhere the reality is right in front of you and you say it's going to take something bigger than governments to remove my sin and the the escape from Satan, sin, guilt, law, put you under grace, the grave, you say, only God can do that. So that's where the governments are giving you the impression that they can fix all of your problems. That's two of them that they can't touch. They can't do it. So your faith has to be rooted in something larger than governments, man-made, man-made.

constructs and you mentioned it a while ago we're members of the kingdom of god we are operating under a king jesus and you say and we're in a you know constitutional republic it's good but it does not meet who's the one who's who's the founding father you quote um about our i can't remember who said it our our system is is wholly inadequate yeah without yeah of god and the bible who's the second of what's your name? Adams? Yeah, John Adams said that. Yeah.

That you, without morality and without the Bible, without God, that you can't, the system will break down. Yeah. It's made for religious people. That's right. Is what he said. He read Madison, when he read the Constitution, he said, this Constitution was written for a moral and religious people.

It is wholly inadequate for any other, meaning if the people, the people, that are underneath and live by the Constitution, once you lose your religion and your faith in God, this is not going to work out for you. It's really, to Ali's point, that self-discipline then becomes from something other than government. That is correct. And so, therefore, if that's how I approach life, then I can function in a society and in a system. But you take that away, and I'm only depending on that entity, to, who put that in my life, you're going to fail.

Because like you said, either side is going to lose self-discipline and then only look for power and how to rule over people. I feel love and it's separate and apart from governments. When governments in even our own Constitution or Republic, when they say they love me, when God says it, I get it. But when they say it, I'm like, I don't think they love me anymore. Well, dad used to say that. He said, what's the last time you heard of?

politicians say, I love you deeply. And you think about it not very often. And if they do, you've never seen politicians get up with the first thing I want you to know is, I love you with all my heart. They don't say that. But I did that when there was a speech up there, the guy in Wisconsin, what was his name? Oh, yeah, the governor. What was his name?

Yeah, the governor. Ran for president. Yeah. Ran for president. Oh, yeah. I spoke before he spoke. Walker, Scott Walker. Yeah, and I just mentioned that.

And he got up there on the mic and he said, the first thing I was, won't you folks to know. And it's really true. He said, I got the thinking about it. He said, I don't tell him I love him. He said, well, this dude just walked up there old loves. And he said, I'm going to tell every one of you. I do love you.

I forgot that. You had a repentance. You had a response right there to your first. Well, I thought about that in Romans, because Sank in the movie, we talked, Rome was one of the civilizations we talked about. Viewer and Paul said, in Romans 1, when you exchange the glory of God, four and then he went into what they were doing but you can just draw a blank there and put anything at the book anytime you exchange the glory of god for whatever it is that's currently

the hot rage in your culture then you're going to have problems and that's what happened to rome it's what happened to everyone since then and it's what we're seeing in america yeah because they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of god he god gave them over to to a depraved mind to do what ought not to be done. And you look at that, and every empire you see that rise and fall, that's why they all fall. It scares me when I look at our country and I say, who, 75 years of watching it, I'm like, I've never seen it like this ever.

Yeah, it's scary. So we're at the end of our podcast, Alice. I want to Relatable, which is on Blaze TV. But of course, anywhere you get your podcast, you can get that. And also, you're not enough, and that's okay, which is the book we've referenced quite a bit today. So be sure and look for Alley.

We're going to have, we have what we call Unashamedment, overtime segment, which, by the way, blazedtv.com slash Unashamed is how you subscribe to get this extra content. And on there, I wanted to hear about your personal, we'd have time to get to it on the regular podcast, your own personal spiritual journey.

So we want to explore that a little bit. So come on over if you hadn't already signed up to Blaze TV and do that now. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click that little bell to get notified about new episodes.

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