Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 485 | Phil, Jase, and Zach Dasher Debate the Exact Moment Salvation Occurs

Episode Date: May 27, 2022

Phil and Zach Dasher debate over the meaning of baptism. Jase and Al weigh in as well. But the one thing everyone definitely agrees on is that salvation comes by grace through faith in Jesus. Watch the Unashamed overtime show, only on BlazeTV: https://BlazeTV.com/Unashamed - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? No, I asked you a question. I was saying that I think it's significant that we're in Colossians 2, verse 12, and the whole thing talked about Christ, and then he brings up, not me. He brought it up saying, Christ, cut off your sinful self, when? Have him been buried with him in Babbage? and raised with them through your faith. So my point was baptism was not in the old law. But most people today, when they bring up baptism... It's how you get affamundit.

It's when. Phil, you're not even nowhere near your mic. It's when you get out of mind. Well, yeah, it's still, Jesus, if you miss Jesus, you miss. If you hadn't learned anything from Colossians, and it's not based on you or human traditions or human commands or human regulations are human rituals. But then it's like when you get to baptism, people say, well, Jesus commanded it, so we

are to do it. Now, I'm not saying that diminishes it. I'm just saying that that bothers me a little bit. I think it should be something you're excited about, you know? It doesn't seem to honor the importance of us, what you're saying. Right, because I think it's where you're giving up. So to simply say, well, we ought to do it. it because I said so.

I mean, I had the same frustration as a kid when my parents, which this is awkward since you're sitting here, but whenever, whenever we're doing here today is a conference. I think you're talking to you, dad. Whenever, y'all didn't have a reasonable explanation for why I should do something. When you gave the old answer, because I said so, I'm like, well, wait a minute now, all people are flawed. We all make mistake. What if you're wrong?

And now, now I get it with God. You could make the point. He said to do it, so we do it, and we trust him. But understanding why, to me, is important. And I think Colossians 2 gives a great explanation of why we do that, but people don't want to talk about it. That's all I said. I think we should talk about it.

Well, along with Romans 6, I think that the way we grew up in our faith tradition, was, I would say, an unhealthy obsession with baptism to a point where baptism replaced the gospel. And so when we would talk about sharing the gospel of people, what we really meant was, let's go to scripture and show them while they have to be baptized to be saved. And whether they heard the gospel or not.

And when I... Well, it was a five, Zach, it was a five-point, you know, was here, believe, repeat confession. Well, that is true. Yeah, I'm not... And that replaced Jesus with the way we grew up. But I think the amount of people have done that is a small group, considering the entire religious world. I mean, based on my experiences with being.

Well, that's true. Yeah, it's a small. And I would say in other groups, what I've heard, you know, the big discussion is, is baptism a means of grace. Is it a sacrament or is it an ordinance? Ordinance would be, you know, we do this to join the church. We do this as a public proclamation. I think it's both. I think the baptism is probably both of those things.

But I think the bigger issue, the bigger point of baptism is what does baptism symbolize? I interpret baptism very similar how I would interpret the Eucharist or the Lord's supper or the communion or whatever your term for that is. That these are symbols of the real thing. You know, the elements that we take on Sunday morning, unless you're Catholic and you believe in transubstantiation, which I don't believe that. I believe that these are elements that are not the real thing and the fact that our church, when we offer to union every Sunday, we put a fence around it and are basically like, you know, if you're not a believer, don't participate in this, you can actually have the real thing. And I think what baptism is in a similar way is baptism is a, it's a symbol of our own connection with the gospel of Jesus. It's, you know, we're dying with, what's I say here?

In him, yeah, let's read it. Why don't we just read the paragraph when he says, I mean, what leads into this is that he says, don't be taken captive by this deceptive philosophy that depends on human tradition, basic principles of the world, rather than on Christ. for in Christ, all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, which is enough, who is the head over every power and authority. In Christ, you were circumcised. Now, this is where this goes off the rails, because you're like, do what? in the putting off of the sinful nature or the flesh.

Not with the circumcision done by the hands of men, but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead. And I read on the last podcast, I guess let me go ahead and read the rest of it. when you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature or the flesh,

God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins. Having canceled the written code with its regulations that was against us and that stood opposed to us, he took it away, nailing it to the cross, having disarmed the powers authorities, and made a public spectacle of them triumping over. them by the cross. Discuss. Yeah. Well, first of all, this language is almost completely mirrored in Roman 6th when he talks about, you know, could be connected with Christ through baptism. I would argue that the water baptism is a symbol of baptism in a broader sense of being immersed with Christ.

And so we're reenacting, you know, the death, the burial, and the resurrection of Jesus. when we baptized folks, we always say that the water, what do we say? It symbolizes a grave and the person is going down into the water. And they're, you know, dying with Christ in baptism to mirror this language in Roman 6. So when they're under the water, you know, they're dying. That's why I feel you talked about a funeral progression because they're going, that's what they're, that's what it is, right? You're going down to the water. The old man's dying.

And he's connected with Christ in his death. He's connected with Christ in his burial. and just as Christ was raised from the dead, he too may be raised to live a new life. So I think that that's the bigger issue in a point of baptism. I don't think baptism is simply a means to join the church and make a public proclamation of your faith. I actually believe.

Well, there's a lot of people who believe that. Yeah. And to your point, Jay, is it cheapens it if you only view it from that prison. I mean, look, I don't judge people who say things. differently about it, but it seems like there's a lot of religious people who just have to make a point to somehow diminish it. And what I mean is like when people say, well, let's do a baptism Sunday once a month. I'm like, what? I mean, that, I don't like that. I think when people hear about Jesus and they want to be baptized, you should stop the chariot to give the analogy. Here is water.

Why wouldn't I get in it, right? What are we waiting around for? You're like, now look, I will try to not talk people out of it, but like say, are you sure? You know, I mean, you can count the costs. You can have conversations, but I'm usually saying, look, this is not about you. In this context, what's so bizarre to me is that every reason that people give that I've heard about why you should just do it once a month or it is an entryway into the church or it's a what do they say it's an outward expression of an inward response of an inward expression of an inward response but look when I heard that when I was when I was I guess in

my mind debating on whether I was going to be a Christian I mean I'm saying that from a wrong point of view I did get the point that oh wait a minute Jesus is awesome and God is pursuing me I need to give up and surrender. But when I was debating that, when they said that, when I heard that phrase, I thought, what does that mean? I mean, it was so, it was like, it was a cleverly, it's a cleverly woven statement, but it's somehow trying to make people feel better about doing it because you're actually, they're like, well, it's a physical act.

But Jesus, I mean, the Holy Spirit here through Paul actually, mirrored baptism over another physical act, which was circumcision, which was a prerequisite to be part of the, what, how do you depict that Judaism? It was a sign. Yeah, it was a sign that you were part of God's covenant people. But don't you think it's ironic that he chose another thing that he wrote a whole letter about saying, if you go that route, you'll be eternally condemned. to the book of Galatian.

It's not possible plus, yeah. But don't you think it's not right that he used that to mirror baptism in a positive one? I think sometimes here's where we fail on explaining it. And you have one story in the Old Testament way back. We got a guy and he has a problem. It doesn't say a word about sin. Nope. It just says he has a disease.

Oh, you're talking about Naman? Naman. Sagan king's five. Naman was commander of the army of the king of Argon, Aram, and he was a great man in the sight of his master and highly regarded. So he's a good guy. Through him, the Lord had given victory to Aram. He was a valiant soldier. Now, he's singing his praises.

But the guy has a problem. This is way before God became fleshed. This is way back. So he has a problem, but he had leprosy. He is told if he can get hooked up with the right people, the people of God, and let these prophets tell him what he needs to do, he'll be okay. So he goes down there in front of Elish's house, the prophet, and he sent a messenger to say to him,

him. Elisa didn't do it. He just sent somebody down. He said, hey, what's his problem? He's, well, he's got leprosy, and some girl that works for somebody sent her down there, and they think somehow that God can cure him of his leprosy, but he's got to do something. He said, what is it? So Elias sent a messenger to him. He didn't go. He just sent a man out there. He said, go down there and tell him, and watch. Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan. That's a river. There's water. It flows. Jordan River. There's nothing sanctimonious about it. It's just a stream flowing by in the

middle of nowhere. And your flesh will be restored if you'll go wash yourself seven times, not six, not five, seven. You'll be restored and you'll be cleansed. All right, we have a simple way out of this. I'm speaking on behalf of God. And Elijah, I mean, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, you got a problem. Here's how you fix it. Go down down and dip seven times in the Jordan River. You'll be all right. Well, here's this guy's response.

You know, if somebody told me that, I'm like, do what? Go down there to the Jordan River and dip seven times. I think people think... I've got this leprosy. I'm looking on my body. They think you're saying that you're saving yourself, which he did in Peter in the first sermon. It's all about is Neiman who has the leprosy.

see, the solution is said to be by God, Elijah the private. He needs, if he wants to be healed, carry out instructions. But God healed him. First, he said, carry out the instructions because he's mad. I mean, I think it's a good point, but I'm saying they're going to say, I'm not sure what they'll say to that. Yeah. Namon, here's what Neiman thought.

He thought it was going to be like the world looks. at it all these years later. I thought that he, he, God, or the prophet would surely come out to me. I mean, where, where's the prophet? He said, oh, he just told me to tell you what to do, dip seven times under Jordan, you'll be right. He said, yeah, but I thought he would at least come and call on the name of the Lord and wave his hand over. I thought we were going to do this. I mean, I got a bad disease here. I thought he would just do something himself. but where is the man of God? Well, he just sent me to tell you what to do.

Go down down and dip seven times. You'll be all right. But see, my point is I think he wasn't carrying out his instructions as much as saying, man, I've got an opportunity to get rid of this disease. Well, you see what I mean? What I'm saying is, you got to be careful though. Hang on, hang on. Let's take a break.

Well, his team says, look, could not. Look, are not Obama and Farfar, the two other rivers, the rivers in Damascus, we've got to cross two rivers to get the one he's talking about. I mean, why that? Aren't they better water of Israel? These two here, these other rivers? Well, let's just go over there to the Jordan. Well, that's a valid point.

He was interjecting. I mean, it's like if it were me, I would do it this way. Yeah, I try. But that's my whole point for this conversation. All these religious people can't come to an agreement. So let me finish my little lesson here. Name and servants went to him. They said, Father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing,

would you not have done it? I mean, how much more when he tells you, just wash and be cleansed? I mean, why don't you just do it? I mean, he said it at work. And he's looking, he's going. And he said, all right, I guess I will. Well, he goes down there and cares out instructions, and he comes up, and he said, good night. God was right all along.

He did take his stuff away from it. Now, look, so the question comes up. Would he have cleansed him if he hadn't carried out instructions? I don't know. We're going down a pretty far rabbit hole. When Jesus said, no, when he said, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me, this is post-resurrection. Therefore, go make disciples of all nations and you baptize them. In the name of the Father's Son, Holy Spirit.

I'll be with it to the end of the age. I mean, how simple could it be? He's not asking for people to do a great thing here. Just go down there. You're going to get wet. You're going to get muddy. But he said, go baptize them. I just read that.

I said, I think I got it. So I just tell people, Jesus said, you need to be baptized, become a disciple of His if you have the faith in his death, barrel, and resurrection. Do you believe that? Yeah. Well, you're going to confess with your mouth on this before we do it. That Jesus will be the Lord of your life.

You got that? You need to carry out instruction. Okay, well, let's go. And we baptized them. I did it yesterday because God said to him. Jesus told me to. Tell them. They need to be baptized and tell them why. Then you get to Colossians, and it becomes very clear

the cleansing the circumcision of the sinful nature whoa you got roman six as a good night i'm dying to sin here i'm being born again and this is when when it happens i just don't think it's that i just think it's elementary teaching and as easy as anything so john the baptist shows up and he baptizes them by the thousands but first it's not i mean what i'm saying is it's probably the most debated thing in the Bible. For no good reason. Well, if you take Paul's connection to circumcision, for example, in Colossians 2, which I think is brilliantly done by Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit,

and then you ask the question, if it's the new circumcision and it's a prototype, circumcision was a prototype of baptism, I would go to Romans 4 and ask the question about Abraham when was Abraham justified? Because Paul asked that question in Romans 4, and he says, was he justified before he was circumcised, or was he justified after he was circumcised? And Paul makes it very clear that Abraham was justified before he was circumcised, and he was justified by his faith.

And I think that the problem we've had with baptism is we've turned it, particularly in the denomination I grew up in, which was called a non-denomination, but really was a denomination. But they turned baptism into a work. And so it became something that you did just because God said to do it. And that is a reason to do it. But it's not the only thing that's going on there. And I think that that's why these passages like in Romans 6 and Colossians 2 are so important. But they have to jive with Romans 4 too, or also, that.

that gives us that we can't turn it into a work we can't say that i mean uh what peter says it very clear that it's not the water it's not the removal of dirt from the flesh well let's read that first or second peter three 15 and i'm glad you brought this up because look i do think that there's that that that is a discussion needs to be addressed when people turn it into a word well no that's not right but when you think about what you're actually i do it i literally had my will turn to Romans 4, by the way. Well, I had mine turn to 1st Peter 315, so that's weird. But you think about it, so if you were going to do a work, even though I'm going back

to that Acts too, when Peter, what do he do? The first sermon, he's got the keys to the kingdom, and he unleashes and introduces Jesus in a new and profound way that he's the son of God. He died, he was buried, he was raised, all the people heard it, they were cut to the heart. they said, what do we do? And he tells them repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus. You'll get the Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sins. And then he says, save yourselves from this corrupt, with many other words,

he warned them. Leave with them. Save yourselves from this corrupt generation. Well, somebody said, well, save yourself. You can't save yourself. Jesus saves you. But that's what he just said. You surrender to the one who can save you.

when the whole argument about people turning baptism into a work, it's actually where you're relinquishing your ability to work. It's the opposite. You are correct. I think it's the greatest idea that God came up with outside of sending Jesus down to die, be buried and raised, because then he's like, okay, let me get this right. I'm calling you to this, and you'll say, well, yeah, I can't do anything to say myself. Exactly.

So surrender, relinquish your ability to work out your own salvation. So that's why then all these verses that Jesus said in the Gospels, they then make sense. If you want to live, what do you got to do? You got to die. And be right, wait, what? So no wonder people can't understand this. They're like, you want to follow me? Better bring your cross.

Yep. Oh, I see. You may read this first Peter? Before you read that, think about the idea of the symbol of baptism was introduced first by John the Baptist as a sign of repentance that Jesus had come. And so all these people get baptized. But we know from Acts, what is it, Acts 19, that the Holy Spirit wasn't given in John's baptism. Well, I think that was the shadow. That didn't happen until later.

That was the shadow. Everything in the Bible has the. shadow, but the reality is found in Christ. That's where we're at. Where's that, Colossians? The reality is found in Christ. But the baptism, I think, to your point, Zach, the reason it's not a work is because it was not in the old law.

It's not a command. But something can be a work and not have been in the old law. I think that. But it is interesting that it was not a rule. Very much so. it was introduced by John the baptizer, which is my point was the shadow. You're going to make a commitment here that you're going to change.

Circumcision was in the old law. Well, he made the illustration to go. Actually, it predated the old law. To go circumcision with baptism, which I do agree. But to me, the point is it's an opportunity. All I was trying to say is God gave you an opportunity to do. die and to give up in Jesus. And I think it causes excitement. It does. You read in the book, Acts, they were baptizing people on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday,

Sunday at night in the morning in creeks and ponds, in rivers. It just doesn't feel like what it is like it is today, though. I mean, I'm saying a lot of people, a lot of churches, it's like a once a month time. It's usually some kids. I feel like something happened here. Yeah, I think that the, but you can, I think there's like it's not either or. I think there's another, I hate to say, this is a third way option, third wayism, but, but it's, I think that I don't understand how someone, this is me, I'm not not, not doing anybody, but I don't understand how like someone would have a hermeneutic that would lead them to believe baptismal regeneration, but would not lead them, which is basically that baptism saves you. That's the moment of salvation.

You're using a lot of words, a big word. Hermannetic would be how you study the Bible. What was the other phrase you used, baptism regeneration? What a regeneration. I'm not even sure what that means. This is the point of your salvation. Let's take a break. Yeah, baptismal regeneration, that would be the point of your salvation.

But if that's how you interpret the scripture, then you're basically putting this, I think, unnecessary emphasis on the physical component of baptism, which if you're going to do that, I think you would also then have to say that when you take the communion, that you are literally taking the literal flesh and blood of Christ because Jesus said, this is my body and this is my blood. That's a good point. So my point is that there's a reason why. He did say, he did say, my blood is real and my body is real. You know, Jesus said, my flesh, eating my flesh, it's real. To us, it is real. But we're doing it by faith. But you got to remember, just keep thinking about Naiman.

Wash and be cleansed. It's a good illustration, but I don't think he was thinking about this as a reason you're baptized. I mean, I do think it's a similar illustration. Yeah, I think because if you take that analogy, which I heard that when I took the survey of Romans, one of my professors in college, Jimmy Allen, which I loved the class. And he was obviously in the churches of Christ was kind of an iconic figure. But he used that same argument. And I think the only problem I would have with it is that I think it reduces baptism to simply something you just do because God said it.

That's what I've felt, too, is that. It's more than that. And I think that's the problem when we have the discussion of when are you saved before, after you're bad, all that, the whole thing. I mean, like, I definitely think you're saved when you put your faith in Jesus. I'll just say it right now. But to me, it would be like me going through the marriage ceremony. because I have to do it. You know, it's just what we got to do.

I mean, look, I know a few husbands out there who's said that, but I'm like, that's not why you do it. They better not say it out loud. You meet this woman. You know, I met my wife and as this evolved and, and I look, I mean, you know, I was, I was, I was the word, I was enamored, I was inspired, I was driven, I was passionate. And I mean, the ceremony was the opportunity to make this official. I mean, I didn't like, well, I guess I have to do it.

Why? Because our society says, you got to walk down there. You know, maybe this is a terrible. I got to do it. Terrible illustration. But to me, you miss out on the joy and power of it, of looking at it as something you have to do in order that, I mean, in contrast to this is an opportunity. You said something, hold on you said something earlier, I want to tie back to it.

I don't know if you said that last podcast or this one, and you said that we're not just saved from something, but we're saved to something. Yeah. Or something like that. I was thinking the old self and the new so. Well, I think that the bigger picture here is that baptism is even, you read the language of Roman 6.

If you read the language of Roman 6, it does not. seem like just a one-time thing that happens and then up okay we're good to go what it seems like is it says that the connection with the gospel it says that we are united with this death and this barrier which is obviously one time then we're raised with Christ but then there's this other word so that we may live a new life and the in the last part of Romans chapter 6 is about our sanctification it's about the progressive walk with God that goes on and on and on So we're saved from sin, but baptism is like our first entrance. It's kind of like the symbol of our first like entrance in the becoming an apprentice of Jesus or becoming a disciple of Christ.

Bill mentioned the Great Commission earlier when Jesus said, All authority on heaven and earth is forgiven to me. And what does he say? He says, the first thing he says is not go baptize them. What does he say? Go make disciples baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The emphasis that Jesus put forth in the Great Commission was to go make disciples. He wants to make followers, apprentices, people that will be transformed by the power of the gospel.

And I think baptism is like this entrance. It's this, water baptism is a symbolic entrance, but baptism in general sense is an entrance into becoming like Jesus. I agree. I mean, but to me, that's why I go back to the same. illustration if it's a spiritual thing so you're in a physical war and you run out of bullets or you're overtaken you know if you surrender in that condition well you're not that's not noble you're you're surrendering because they're fixed to kill you you're you've been beaten you're you're out of bullets so there's nothing magical about that what i'm

saying is you're out there trying to fight in this battle and then you're introduced to a commanding officer who is who number one has created you he I mean he's he's he's beyond what any kind of physical war you could even be in and he's also imperishable he's he's unkillable well all of a sudden And I'm like, well, forget this war. I'm going with him. I'm, if you had a commanding officer or a person who loves me, who made me, who loves me, and you can't die. So then out there in this, wherever I'm at, I decide, you know what, I got bullets here,

earthly bullets. I got things I could do. But based on what I've heard and my understanding, I am surrendering right here on this physical earthly battlefield, and I'm putting my faith and trust. And so it's a, it's not, I'm not in that moment saying, well, do I have to? Because if I had to, you'd have me down on the ground defeated. But I'm choosing to defeat myself because I have met someone more superior. I mean, that's what the difference.

Do you follow my point? No. You don't get it? No, I don't get it. So I'm, look, what shall we say? What I'm saying is your sin, I have to. We got Roman 6 again. Is there a point in time when a person's sins are removed?

Is there a point in time when his faith in Jesus? Yes, there is. Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase by no means? We died to sin. Now, whenever that is, is that's a critical moment in a human being's life. We died to sin. How can we live in it any longer?

And then he says this, and I'll say to y'all, don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus, in him is no sin, see, were baptized into his death. We were therefore buried with him through baptism. How in the world could you ever look at baptism and say, well, that's optional. I don't know. I don't think you have to do it. Because people take it and they make it bigger than Jesus.

You can't do that. If you don't, but if you're not introduced to Jesus. When did the leprosy leave old Neiman? He said when he carried out instructions. Go to the Jordan River. He didn't say, he said, what if it had just said, I think five are covered? I know, but I just think you're creating. a situation

without Jesus being inserted into it. I'm saying if you don't hear Jesus, that's the motivation for doing this. Not because you need to carry out his instruct. I'm saying he chose to share Jesus and reveal

himself and that is the motivating factor for wanting to surrender to him. Hang on Zach. Let's take a break. All right, go. I would argue that when the enrollment six, when he talks about baptism, he's not speaking of water baptism. He's speaking of immersion into Christ,

in a metaphorical sense that it's a, that he's being immersed, that we're immersed into Christ. I actually believe that water baptism is like you can't say, it's not optional. I mean, I don't think any believer could say, I'm just not going to do that. I think that you have to be water baptized if you are a believer in Christ. I believe in, I believe in, a believer's baptism, meaning that. I believe that too, because it's mentioned about almost 100 times in the Bible, starting with John the Baptist. Before Jesus came, no one had ever heard of water baptism.

When he got here, the one who's going to pave the way for the Savior of the world, you say, he's going to do it by saying they nicknamed him. He's the Baptist. Well, that's enough for me to say, don't mess with that. Just do it. Just do it. Yeah, I think the point, though, is I just think you have to, we don't ever want to add to faith. We don't want to say that you have to put your faith in Jesus plus anything else.

I mean, it's primarily because of the work in Romans. So when I read Romans 6, I'm also going back and thinking of it in light of Romans 4. and and I think it's more of a false argument in Romans is like an entire argument that read in, you know, in the whole, the whole 16 chapters of Romans. Can I read this first period of three? Yeah. It's been on hold for 12 minutes. So I'm going to read 15 first because he says, in your hearts, set apart Christ is Lord. That was my point, is if you don't do that,

nothing that happens after is going to mean a hell of beans, right? That's the whole point here. Jesus is salvation. The Colossians gave you 12 reasons. Yeah, by the way, he's fixing to tell you what water is. I've studied with a guy. He said, you know, no, no, baptism, not water, no water, no water needed. Well, but it's kind of like what Zach said when he just said, he said the same thing,

because it is an immersion into Christ, but it's a surrendering of your work system. You realize you cannot save yourself. And when is that? Well, it's a process. Because if you don't acknowledge Jesus, if you don't hear the call, you're never going to get that far.

So here you are lost. When are you saying? I don't think it's important to separate it all out because it's like when, you try to go back and remember, like when I was 14, I was baptized. If you try to go back and get into my memory bank on what was going on back then, I'm never going to be able to tell you because I can't remember. But as I've studied.

I remembered. You did the right thing. But when your sins were forgiven. That wasn't my point. My point was. Dad was there. He remembers. I had some guy telling me.

You think there's water involved in this. I was under that illusion, John the Baptist, you know, Neiman and all of them. Well, let me just read it. I was going to make a point, but that's all right. So in your heart, set apart Christ as Lord. So it gets down to verse 18 of first period of three. He says, for Christ, died for sins once for all. Well, that's how you're safe.

Jesus on a cross died for my sins. So I'm setting him apart as Lord because he's the son of God. So when is that? Well, he didn't say that. We're getting there. I know. The righteous for the unrighteous to bring you to God. So Christ actually brought me to God through a cross in the empty tomb.

He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, which is just exactly what I just said. Yep. So he, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago. when God waited patiently in the days of Noah. Now, I'm not real sure why that came up in the middle of this conversation. Well, we can talk about that later. Let you know that water's involved. Well, I know, but I'm saying him preaching to the spirits during his,

when he was resurrected by the spirit. They're dead. He went back to the days of the day. They're dead now. Right. While the art was being built, in it only a few people, and we all remember the story of the art, Eight and all were saved through water.

Uh-oh. Which is an interesting statement. I've always taken that to mean the water actually pushed the boat above it. Because I don't, you know, I don't know how it says it was saved through water. I mean, God saved them, but he told them to build a boat, and they did. Then it says they were saved through water. So I just Through the storm

They were saved through the storm Through the flood Well the flood that destroyed everybody else Actually pushed the boat Upward Yeah but couldn't you Wouldn't you argue that their base saved them Because they built the boat

Owl yes Because God told them to But what does it mean save through water How did the water Save the people Only a few people were saved Well, you know, we're saved through water. They had a boat.

They had a boat. Because God told them to build a boat. Nobody else was on board. And the water pushed the boat up. Correct. Hang on, let's take our last break. I'm not sure. What other explanation you're going to get from that?

Let me read you my translation. I think it's a better translation. When in doubt, change the translation. Because this one, the only way I'm going to get the water, be it, the boat and the people being saved through water. is if it if you're if they're

pushing it up it says here during the construction of the ark in which a few that is eight persons were brought

safely through the water okay it's a either way it doesn't matter in this translation it's like saying if a storm

came through West Monroe Louisiana and you guys survived it you were brought safely through the storm through the flood waters well I

I like that translation. I like that translation better is that yours? But I'm saying the way the NIV translated this, the only way that can be a reality is if the water pushed it up. I mean, so maybe your translation. But the Hebrew writer was speaking to the opposite group. Y'all are talking about how Noah and them were saved because they had a boat and they had a big water. No, I was just, I was trying to define.

Hebrew 11 by faith, Noah, when warned about things, not yet seen. That means water over the entire earth. In holy fear, built an ark, there's a reason to save his family and waters involved. They had a boat and nobody else was aboard. By his faith, he condemned the world. They were drowned with water. On one side, there's a mighty throng, all of them but seven, water killed them. But in his case, he had a boat, because by faith, he said, what I need to do is in the need to build a boat. It's a big one. By his faith, he condemned the world, and he became an air of righteousness that comes by faith.

That's like water baptism. It's by faith. You're saved. Well, right. He says that, Colise. So let me finish reading this. In it, only a few people ate and all were saved through water. Sorry, we got distracted on that phrase.

And this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you. you also. Case close. Well, he's not saying baptism was the symbol. He said water symbolizes baptism because I guess you go back into that scenario. Yep. That was actual water. But what does he clarify?

But what does he clarify? Well, then he clarifies, which I love this, it's not the removal of dirt from the body. So it's not a bath. That's right. so like you said about the Lord's Supper it's not if it was there's nothing uh the crackers in the juice they don't have some medicinal aspects to it that's that's like it's not the physical act of washing just like it's not the cracker in the juice that has some kind of magical healing power So it's not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God.

There it is. Well, I think, and then there's next phrase, it saves you, baptism saves you, it or this act, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand with angels, authority, powers, and submission to them. I finally got it out. Now we're back to Roman 6. Just do it. Here's mine. All the listeners out there. Y'all go with Jace, Al, or Zachary, or you just say, why don't we just do it?

Well, because I think when you get to. I just baptized 10. Hold on. Hold on. We're not saying. You said, when those 10 people saved yesterday before on the way down to the river? Or were they saved when they were born again of water and the spirit? So I'm thinking.

Because it's the same problem I have with Nike. You know, they came out with a campaign that just said, just do it. And I'm like, do what? Why? Buy your tini shoes? They're like, just do it. I wanted some clarification on it. And I think the reason and understanding that provides motivation, passion, joy.

And I want to understand the process. I mean, Jesus is what saves you. That's the number one clear thing I got out of First Peter 3. Because it says, the question. He died for your sins once and for all. And it saves you by the resurrection. When? I don't think that that's significant.

I do. Yeah, I don't. But I think we're agreeing. I think people should run to the water after they hear, understand Jesus. I do too. But I'm saying it's just as important for us to get out and share Jesus because that's what causes people to want to run. I don't want to get, you know, share Jesus and somebody says, well, should I be baptized?

I was like, well, you know. Here's the three or four texts. I mean, just do it. I mean, just do it. Hold on. I think reading the text. Yeah, but it just seems so. It's not as exciting to tell somebody just do it.

Here's the, I think you can answer the question of when. I think I would say when you put your faith in Jesus. I think when you're immersed into Christ, the question is, is water baptism? the moment that you are immersed into Christ, or is there is water baptism? I would disagree. I would disagree also because you can't take out when someone hears about Jesus. You're now, you're missing that aspect. That's why you got to preach the gospel.

If somebody says, just be baptized without that, you have to have the moment that you realize, or it's getting into your ears, which trickles down to your heart. who Jesus is, what he did, what he's doing, what he will do on a cause of the resurrection. Do you know who the moment is not important, too, in my opinion, is God, because God is outside of time. And so when we have these discussions about, like, in God's economy, in God's time, he's not temporal. I mean, so it's like these are things we discuss as temporal beings about when and all that. But I mean, I do think it's more important to think, man, put your faith in Jesus. Exactly.

I agree. Anybody that came into our church and said, man, I want to be a follower of Christ. And I would share the gospel with them. And I would tell them that Christ died in place of their sin, that, like, that he, it's his finished work. You're saved by your faith in him alone. And they're like, man, what do I do? I would respond, just like they responded to the book of Acts. I'd say, you need to repent and be baptized.

And if they said, when, I'd say, right now, let's go. That's what we would do. Now, if they said, when am I saved? I said, when do you put your faith in Jesus? That's what I would tell them. They asked me, I don't think that it has to be, just because I don't, just because I believe that your faith saved, when you put your faith in Jesus, doesn't mean that I would diminish baptism in any way.

It doesn't mean that I wouldn't tell someone to immediately be baptized. So it kind of becomes, in my mind, the moot point because I've never met anybody that has heard the truth of the gospel and understood their sin before Holy God and looked up to him and said, man, I see my sin. I see His holiness. What do I do? And if I said, man, you need to repent and be baptized. And I've never heard anyone that would say, well, I'll do the repentance part. But that bad because of that's just asking. Well, I agree.

It's a good point. I think the problem is theologians and smarter, more mature people. They're the ones that come in and make it murky. To the ones, just the common people out there, they're like, what an opportunity. That's why it just, I don't know, it makes me feel squeamish when people come in there and they're like, well, you don't have to do that, but you should. I don't know. I just feel uncomfortable with that.

Although it's a small issue, you're baptized once. You live for Jesus every day. You know, he said there's one baptism in Ephesians 4. I mean, it means something. Well, but I don't, but I mean, I think he's saying there's like, what he's saying there's not a, there's not a baptism into multiple, you know, things or you're baptized into Christ. That's it.

One faith, one faith. Well, that's what I'm saying, Zad. But it is in the list. It made the list. That would be the argument. Y'all are getting now slowly, but surely. No, and I agree with Dad in the sense that I think baptism is the culmination of the process. I do too.

That God leads us to salvation. I believe that's when the Holy Spirit's received as well. So I'm in agreement with you on that, Dad, because, Jase, you said it earlier, the illustration, which we're almost out of time, so we'll talk about more in the overtime of a wedding, is the culmination of a decision for people to spend the rest of their lives together. They had to make a decision. They were going to do it. I agree 100%.

But my point was, you're so, well, how do you agree with that? I agree. But you don't want to diminish the hearing of the gospel and the, whatever you want to call it, the decision of that, the faith that's being attached to it. Because then you're just trying to baptize people for no reason. Well, in the movies, Zach, it was a good point because before, Bill Smith baptized me. We were two hours away from that.

We were discussing when, when, and what? He said, you know, you need to obey the gospel. I said, how do I do that? He said, well, you know what the gospel is? And I said, I don't know, gospel music on the radio. I said to him, what do I need to believe? Who do I need to believe in? to be saved.

Well, he goes through the gospel for two hours before we ever got to water baptism. But I hadn't heard the gospel. So I didn't know that I was reenacting the death, and resurrecting the Jesus by faith. I didn't know that. Let's continue this later. Yeah, hold that thought.

Let's go to overtime. BlazTV.com slash Unashamed is where you subscribe to get our overtime segment. So we'll see you over there. We'll continue this discussion. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube

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