Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 486 | Phil Asks if All Dogs Go to Heaven & Jase Warns Against Manufactured Spiritual Experiences

Episode Date: May 29, 2022

Phil finds out that his favorite house dog, Bobo, has passed on, and Al discusses the possibility of dogs in the afterlife. Zach makes a point about animals having spirits and the verses in the Bible about the spirits of animals. Al discusses the difference between a soul and a spirit, and Jase examines the pressure that church leaders can feel to manufacture a spiritual experience in an attempt to have the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. Jase discusses Saul's conversion in the book of Acts, when Saul encounters the Lord and is struck blind. And Zach takes a closer look at the old law, sin and grace, and how humans interact with them. Watch the Unashamed overtime show, only on BlazeTV: https://BlazeTV.com/Unashamed - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? So we had, I always had to start the podcast off on sad news, but we did have a passing yesterday or maybe the great bone yard in the sky, a dab, Bobo. How was Bobo? Maybe 11 or 12. 11 or 12. He had lost most of his eyesight, which didn't happen yesterday on how he bit the dust. and they were all looking at the UPS truck coming in. He comes in. We have very little traffic,

but we do have the people who, like the UPS trucks and whatever. I gave a prophecy about a year ago because I saw him chasing at UPS truck one day. Yep. And I thought that's not going to end well. I saw about 50 near misses where the truck barely missed him. And I try to get them to stop doing that, but they just kept on.

No, you can't stop it. But look, on the way down here, I had to get over in the other lane three different times because there's a dog laying in the middle of the road. I lie. They're just laying in the right. I don't know why dogs are obsessed out here with laying on the asphalt in the middle of the road. It's warm. So they're cold and they're looking for heat.

They lie right out there in front of his house and, you know, you got a stop. Oh, you just did it. Oh, yeah. I thought, well, this is how. Bobo made a misstep, and he got in there between the front tires of the UPS truck and the back tires, they said. He just going to dart through there. He zigged when he should have zagged.

He ziggged when he should havezagged. He just didn't quite have the step he used to have. So I call him out. The women were crying, but we always, our method of grief on how to get over it. And coping. We reinstate a number. another Bobo within days. So that looks just like that one.

It looks just like him. Call him the same name. Give him a few months and, you know, Bobo lives on. Huh? This is the sixth, if I'm right, mom would know for sure. Well, she probably doesn't remember anymore. But I think this is the sixth Jesse James. It started out with Jesse James was the name.

And this is the six rat terrier. Their official name is Jesse James, but then they get a nickname like all the rest of us. She brought this one in as the next Jesse James, because the oldest one, the old one was near death. He lived on for a couple years. Well, I said, we can't call him Bobo now because this and here won't die. So I said, what are we going to do?

She said, well, we'll name this one Bobo. So right now. This is like two or three on Bobo, right? Well, there's been about seven and all. First, yeah, so they're all Jesse James is their official name. Bobo was the nickname for this dog. It's the first Bobo, I think. This is first Bobo?

First Bob. So what's the replacement going to be called, Phil? No, there was another. There was another Bobo before this one. This is like Bobo 7. I mean, you know, counting Jesse James is. Oh, okay. We just said, but.

I can't. She's working on. It's getting real confusing. Yeah, it did. Well, look, I call Mom, and so I said, well, Mom, you know, I heard you have some drama, are you okay? And she said, I'm okay. By now she was calm, you know, but she said that the UPS driver comes in and she said, he knocked on the door, knocked on the door, and she opened the door and he had, he was crying. And, uh, and she was like, what, what is it? What happened? And then

he told her what happened. And so then she started crying. So she and the UPS guy are both crying on my front porch. And he felt so bad because he just kept apologizing, you know, but she said, it's not your fault. I mean, you know, the dog did it, but he felt really bad. And I was glad that he did that. That was very nice of him to sort of share that moment, I guess, with mom, you know. So go big brown, I guess. Yeah.

So I don't know, you know, dogs, they do have a spirit, but they don't have a soul. So the question is, and I've had this, we've had this asked by people for it, do you think dogs will be in the next life? I said, well, I don't know. I don't know. I hope so. Maybe. I hope so, too.

because they do have a spirit, but they don't have a soul. They don't have a choice of... Jesus ate fish post-resurrection. Plus, the only thing I can think of, if they all make it, there's going to be a big argument because some of them are going to say,

well, who are you? I'm Bobo. No, I'm the one that's Bobo around here. It could be once we get to heaven, there may be an argument on who's who. With the real Bobo, please stand up. I thought I was the only Bobo. No, you came out to the last.

Yeah, I don't know. So she did tell me she was, as you said, Dad, she's already in the works for the next replacement, I suppose. And, you know, it'll be loved just like Bobo was love. Yep. There's a philosopher named J.P. Moreland. He's a Christian apologist who argues that the dogs are soulless creatures. They don't have human souls, but I can't remember what he said.

I'm going to get me interested. I'm going to go back and look up. He has a podcast, I think, on that. topic, I'll have to go look it up. And I'll report back. Yeah, check that out, Zad. There's a verse somewhere in the Old Testament that talks about the spirit of animals versus the spirit of people. So that's why I know they have a spirit.

But it's obvious anyway, because a dog has a, you know, a spirit is simply your personality or, you know, the way you carry yourself. And that's different from the soulless nature of. But it may be true, Zach, because the dog relates to human beings different than any other animal. there's no doubt that's true. Yep. In terms of traits and characteristics. I'll refrain from making a point on it so I don't get eviscerated in here again like I did last time. So, Dad,

I thought one nice point on water baptism. We're going there again. Yeah, there we go again. Here's what Dad said, James before we started rolling. He said, before we close the day, door on that discussion. I said, Dad, I think you're reopening the door. I thought it was a good discussion.

I was good discussion. We'll leave our listeners to let them make their own decision. I think they should be baptized. If they say, well, I don't. I'm not well. Just when I thought I was out, he pulled me back in. Give us your last thought.

Starts. If you read John, it's a critical. read. Tell the truth, Phil, you studied this all night. You woke up, staring at the ceiling. It occurred to me at some point when I went home. On the last day, this is John 7. On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, If a man is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the scriptures has said,

streams of living water will flow from within him. By this, he meant the spirit by whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time, and everybody needs to remember this, Jesus is still alive. He's speaking. He hasn't died yet on a cross and been buried and raised from the dead. So the gospel is not complete because the gospel is seen in Jesus, his becoming flesh, dying, been buried, and raised from the dead.

By this, he meant the spirit whom those who believed in him were later to receive. The time is not right yet. Up to that time, the spirit had not been given since Jesus had not yet been glorified. So before the gospel came to completion with the death of Jesus on the cross, his burial and resurrection, the message was different in that there was no spirit given when you were baptized. John's baptism, you could not receive the spirit because Jesus hadn't died yet. Well, Jesus does. and John records it and he was buried, he was raised from the dead. Now

as they're going across starting in Jerusalem the first thing out of Peter's mouth when they all get together in Acts chapter 1 they're all sitting there and it reads like

this, this man Acts 2 23 now he was handed over to you by God said purpose for an other gee with the help of wicked men put him to death by mating him to the cross. There's Jesus' death on a cross, which had not happened when John

wrote about the spirit not been given over there. But now we got a different ballgame. God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death that was impossible for death to keep his hold on him. He keeps preaching to him. And about verse Acts 236,

let all Israel be assured of this. God has made Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ. When they're hurt this, they were cut to the heart. These Jews are charged with killing Jesus, but he was the Messiah and who's going to save them by them kidding him. Because you can imagine they were devastated. Well, they were cut to the heart, and they've asked a simple question, brothers, what shall we do? Because we're in a bind here. We're the ones who killed him. Peter replied, when they said, what shall we do?

Repent and be baptized. Every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven. Now, what's this? I read to you that text over there in John. The spirit had not yet been given, but now it's fixed to be given because Peter said, repent and be baptized so that your sins to be forgiven, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

spirit. That's what couldn't happen up to this point. Well, from now on, their message is going to be the same and they're going to baptize one after the other. You can go through the whole book of Acts. You can just turn one page and then turn a couple of pages and you'll run into it. I think the confusion comes in with people. Because when in 33, you know, these guys were sitting there and in chapter two, the first four of verses in this violent wind and they saw it seem to be tongues of fire and so then they heard this you know these guys speaking in a language that they hadn't studied right yeah well in his sermon where he's sharing jesus where paul's reminding the colossians of jesus same thing in 32 it said

god has raised us jesus to life we're all witnesses to the fact exalted to the right hand of god he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit. And I think this phrase, I'm not sure where you're going with it, but I was just going to bring it up, and has poured out what you now see in here. Yep. So the Holy Spirit, going back to your John, what was that, John 8, John 7. So he now has, you see the miraculous, the evidence,

saw the evidence of the Holy Spirit being poured out. So then when they said, what do we do? He said, well, you know, when you pour something out, it's, it's now been made available. You can actually get it. It's called baptism of the Holy Spirit. That's right. And other passages. But it is confusing.

It's a little confusing. Some groups now, I mean, I don't want to chase a rabbit here, but it's like my wife and I were discussing a lot of, a lot of. the churches you'll go and they're trying to recreate what happened in acts two in the first four verses they're like come come you know pour your spirit out but i'm kind of like well that's great but we have it yeah it's it's it's in us i'm simply i simply started with that text in john where you had one kind of baptism no spirits given that's johns i know that's because you say so there's there's actually more than one baptism there certainly is you had johns

no spirit was given when they were baptized but now you get through here and you get in the middle of the book of acts and here comes a fellow named apollos this is acts 18 24 yeah a native of alexandria into he was a now first of all let's look at his attributes he was a learned man hang on Hang on, Dad, before you read that, let's take a break. He was a learned man, so he was no Dumbo, with a thorough knowledge of the scriptures, good for him. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor.

Now check us out, and taught about Jesus accurately. So there's nothing wrong with his, but you say there's a problem arising, and the problem is this little statement, though he knew only the baptism of John. You're like, uh-oh. I don't know if it was a problem. It was just.

It was a problem in that in the time frame, they had come out of John's preaching before Jesus had died, been buried and raised from the dead. They went to out here in the middle of nowhere around emphasis up in here. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying with problem. It means like he made them. mistake it was just it was a weird turn of event because he hadn't heard about it I mean and look he knew

the baptism of John which was a good thing they were told her to be baptized he's the John the baptizer though we knew only the baptism of John but Jesus when they were converted through John's preaching when when when that was before Jesus had died I can see this little lag you said what about the ones who had John's baptism and they were still alive when Jesus was died and was buried and raised from the dead. Well, he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. And remember, the only problem is he knew John's baptism, not the one where you receive the spirit. The spirit's not given at John's. So, when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their house, and here's the way it reads. They explained to him the way of God more adequately.

So I'm here today just to show you, our audience should at least look at this regarding water baptism. When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. For he was vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proven from the scriptures that Jesus was the Christ. So he's preaching the gospel.

While they were in Corinth, Apollos and his friends, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples. Okay, now let's listen carefully. And ask them, did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? It's a fair question. You said, why would Paul do that? Because these people had John's baptism.

Because what? When you believed, they answered, no. we've not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. They were never told, therefore, how would they know? So Paul asked, then what baptism did you receive? That tells me right there that we've got a little friction going on here between John's baptism, pre-death burial and resurrection of Jesus, and God's baptism, and the second one, through people who heard that Jesus had died

was buried and raised from the dead. It was a little time zone their problem. Well, they said, what baptism did you receive? John's baptism, they replied. Paul said, he said the same thing John said over there. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him. That is, in Jesus.

They had missed that. So now I'm looking at two baptisms and we're going to fix it. Well, if it was not necessary and mandatory, why bring this up? If you didn't have to do it to begin with, like some say, you don't have to fool with that. Well, why is he making this argument? You had the wrong baptism. You just got caught in the wrong time frame. Now that Jesus has died and been buried and raised from the dead, you need to be baptized into him.

On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, and in this case they put their hands on them, and they gave them ability to what happened in Acts Chapter 2. They spoke in different languages and prophesied, and there were about 12 of them in all. Well, Paul entered the synagogue, spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But I'm just bringing that up to let you know.

You say, actually, there were two baptisms going on there, Well, I think I referred to that last time. I didn't go in detail. I mean, I agree with what you're saying. I don't think it was wrong. You keep saying it was a wrong Baptist. I mean, they were both right. It was just what they had at the time.

Yeah. You can't be Babb... Well, I think I think, and I'm obviously on the other side of the debate on this, but I will say this, that, you know, one of the rebuttals I've heard against baptismal regeneration, which is the view that you're saved when you're baptized, you regenerated in that moment, which, by the way, I believe Luther believed in baptism or regeneration. So I don't think that you guys are alone in that. I've never heard that phrase in my life that I can recall.

So, I mean, is that? We know. Yeah. I mean, it's been a long debate. It's a big debate. I mean, even outside the church of crisis. Yeah, I don't like boxes. You know, like somebody said, do you believe in baptism, regeneration?

If somebody asked me, I'd say, I believe in Jesus. Did they baptize them again, right or wrong? Did they baptize them these people again? In Acts 19? But we don't have the same situation here, because we're all. Let me say this, though, because I think, I know I can already hear the comments when this thing pops. And I'm one who believed that you're saved when you put your faith in Jesus.

But when one of the rebuttals. I don't think anybody's denying that. Well, then we're on the same page in. That's all I'm saying. I think you have to be baptized. I just don't think it's the moment. You know, water baptism, for example, is not the moment. But when people say, what about the thief on the cross, it falls into Phil's point here, that the baptism that we participate in as believers in Jesus is a baptism that is connecting us with the death, the burial, and the resurrection of Jesus.

So the thief on the cross could not have participated in that baptism because Jesus had not died. He had not been buried and he had not been raised from the dead. So that baptism, he was kind of hard to be baptized when you're hanging on a cross, fix that. Well, and that, and that too. And that too. I mean, Jesus had to power. Exactly. Anybody, whatever at any time.

Yeah, but I think it's a valid point, Zach's making. And he was safe because of his faith, you know. Well, there were many others. You can read Hebrews 11. So it's full of people who were never baptized that were saved. Yep. I mean, it's obvious from anybody up until that point. That's right.

It wasn't a part of the process. Yeah, I'm kind of, I guess a little, I'm a little more in the middle in the sense that I believe it's the process. You can't, if you baptize somebody without faith, it's, you just got wet. You just took a swim. So faith, obviously, is what saves you. But I believe faith. starts the process and baptism concludes it. I think that's the process.

Faith in Jesus. I mean, you're faith. You could have faith in a lot of things. Well, of course, that's, that's, I mean, I didn't say that, but that's implied. Yeah, faith in Jesus. I just think it's worthy of note from people to say you, you don't even have to fool with that. I just think it worthy of note. If he said what baptism you would say, well, John, you know, it's a baptism of repentance.

On hearing this, you would tell you. one coming after him believe in one coming that is in jesus they were like we got it we got it so i think it's a valid point but it's it's we're all post spirit being poured out but i i was gonna bring up something because i would al you said it was the when the holy spirit fell out fell it was a one-time event and i thought that happened many i mean it happened with the gentiles the same you could almost said i would i would argue that was a one point oh and two point oh because the first one was for the jews only which is what paul said in romans one and then the second one for the gentiles happened in act 10 you're correct well technically it happened twice but i think it was 2.0 because it was he said

it would be a pouring out of the holy spirit but i think you're right i think if you're waiting around every week for the holy spirit to be poured out you're missing the point that he lives in it Well, and it did happen in the text that Phil just read in Acts 19, because then it says when they placed their hands on, the Holy Spirit came on them. That's 196. And they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about 12 men and all.

So you're like, well, what was that all about? So. Yeah. And you're right. Now you bring in another element. The difference in the miraculous pouring out of the Holy Spirit on versus the inward dwelling of the Holy Spirit, which really are two different things. Well, there's a difference, but I think it's confusing for people to listen.

It is. I mean, I wanted to interject something in here. And I think this is interesting. Hang on, Jay's. Let's take a break. I actually got this point from my wife one night over we were talking about. There seemed to be pressure from, you know, leaders in the church to try to create. this, you know, this Holy Spirit falling on people.

And she was just telling me, it's like, you know, she doesn't, she didn't like being, having pressure put on her for that to happen when we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Because then it almost seems like it's your performance. You have to somehow another whip people up into a frenzy or whatever. but I mentioned to her that we were discussing baptism, and I think this was a, this is a good point. I'm not sure what y'all want to do with it. But you remember in Saul's conversion in Acts 9,

you know, he struck down on the road. I mean, here he is killing Christians, and he has an audible conversation with the Lord. He's like, who are you, who are you, Lord? Well, the Lord strikes him blind. And it says for three days, this is Acts 9, 9. He was blind and did not eat or drink anything. So he gets instructions where to go.

He goes and he sees Anonis, because the Lord said to Anonis in the 15, go, this man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles. And so he goes in verse 17, Anonis went to the house, and entered it. Now watch this. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here,

has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit. So immediately, something like scales fell from his eyes and he could see. So we've had some kind of miraculous encounter. via the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And he was healed.

I mean, kind of like, kind of like what happened in Acts 2. There was a miracle. And then watch what happens. I thought this was interesting. He got up and was baptized. And after taking some food, he regained his dream. The order at which this happened is interesting. I mean, he hadn't eaten in three days.

He's blind. He's been struck down. He's had, we have a supernatural. There's no doubt this is a miraculous occurrence that's happened in this man's life. Yep. And you know he's hungry after three days. He can, he's healed. You would think we're now that he's been healed, he would go get something to eat.

I mean, no, they went and baptized him. I mean, why, why the urgency on that is what seemed interesting to me? And then he went and got something. It is a strange order of occurrences. Now, y'all, I don't know what it means, but it's interesting to me. I've read all the text that we've talked about, you know, before, and I just put them all together, and I said, I'm not going to mess with that. I'm going to take them to the river.

They say, I believe Jesus. I said, well, let me hear some verses. here and they're like, I'm ready to go. Nobody's arguing about it and all that. I just said, well, you know, I got some verses here. You know, it's repent, we're baptized. Here's another over here in the glacial. I think what started, what started this debate, though, is you can't overemphasize

baptism if Jesus is out of the equation because Jesus is salvation. Your opportunity to participate in that through baptism. Faith in the gospel saves. It should be a positive thing, not a debatable thing. It should be an opportunity. So I think when you ask legalistic questions about baptism, I think you're missing the point. That's why I think, Zach, and even me to some degree of pushing back a little bit about this point in time, point in time. Because the point in time has to have Jesus at the center.

Whenever you're walking through life, Jesus pursuing you. and you understanding what he did in his pursuit of you through his death, bail and resurrection, there's no doubt if you're going to make me have a point in time, I'm going to go with that point in time because that's what saves me. Now, me, I'm nothing. So now I read through here that I have an opportunity to reenact that in some kind of symbolic way, 2,000 years later.

Well, I'm going to run and go do that. Me too. Run. Do not pass. go do not collect two two hundred dollars i will find the nearest water source and do that that's kind of my take well i was going to say too that you know willie was on the podcast a few uh podcast back and he's now working with the church it has a little different or when he went there had a little bit different on waiting to baptize you were talking about that jays and so he went

to talk to the pastor and he was like you know is because they were kind of like they were pushing back a little bit because he was like, why would we wait? Why can't we just, if somebody, you know, has embraced Christ, why can't we just go ahead and baptize them? And then, of course, they were kind of pushing back because it would have been their tradition to just have a baptismal service, kind of what you described today. It's like, I don't know what, you know, what their time frame was. And, and Willie asked a simple question. He said, well, is it okay if we don't wait? I mean, you guys have a problem if we just go ahead and do it. And they were like, well, no, I guess that would be fine. You know, it's like, and so,

Now, even over the time that he's been there over a year, they got to where they just go ahead and baptize, you know, when people embrace Christ whenever it is, you know, whether it's... That's the way I view it. Yeah. So they just change their traditional view of it just because somebody asked the question, is it okay, if we don't wait? Because it seems... You know, they come up with all these, what if, you know, what if somebody... See, I think that's the wrong way to go. Yeah, that's the wrong way to go.

Yeah, that's the wrong way to... That's why I don't like those phrases and all, you know, I just try to... stay away from that and figure out what God's plan was and he is and then just try to do likewise. But you know, you said this before, Jay's, we get into trouble when we try to make Jesus and even the Bible a formula-driven experience. Like, in other words, we're going to lay out your little slots here and then that's your formula. And then that has to apply because people are messy. You know, I mean, they come to Christ in so many different scenarios and ways. And so, you know, you've got to let Jesus be Jesus.

And then we just try to show, you know, this is the best way to go. Yeah. Well, the whole point is the whole point he's making here in Colossians, too, which is where we started this whole discussion. I mean, I don't think he's making a case for baptism. What he's making a case for is Jesus being the supreme center of everything. And baptism is he's referencing our baptism to draw us back into that memory. to say, hey, you remember, like, what you did here.

You know, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a realignment to put Christ to pick at the center and how, and he's talking about baptism, how it aligns us with Christ by connecting us with, you know, his death, burial, and resurrection, and we kind of participate in that in our own life. And, you know, moving in the Colossians 3, which I'm not sure if we're going to get there today, but you, you kind of see, like, to Jason's point last, last time that it's not just about being safe. saved from sin, it's being saved to something. It's being saved to live a new life, to walk with Jesus, to be like him. So I think that's the bigger point. And I think it's the way that we identify when these discussions become unfruitful is when it becomes about the formula instead of the person of Jesus. Wrap your head around this one.

Hang on, Dad. Let's take a break. Matthew 3, verse 13. Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.

You say, wait a minute here. So he's going to go over here and John the Baptist is the ones who he sent to baptize he's going down there and he's going to tell John to baptize him. Well, John tried to deter him

saying, I need to be baptized by you. And do you you come to me? Now they've got a little fracas going here when Jesus said, I want you to baptize me. And John said, well, whoa, now, you need to be baptized me instead of me being baptized by you, which is kind of weird.

Jesus replied, let it be so now, meaning, John, I want you to baptize me. Let it be so. Just do it, son. And it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness. As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water.

At that moment, heaven was opened. So there's a lot of carried on here. And he saw the spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him a voice from heaven saying, this is my son whom I love with him. I am well pleased. Every time I read that text, I've always said, well, you know what?

When it comes right down to it, I'm going to get baptized by somebody. I said that when I was 28 and was converted because it was text like that. And then all of a sudden you look up and you see to fulfill all righteousness, I mean the spirit descending like a dove and you're marked as a son of God. It just kind of says in a sequence of events, being baptized is part of it. That's my point. It just looks like it's a part of it. It's a valid point.

I want to make this. Go ahead. I'm not saying you're going to hell if you don't, but I'm just saying. Well, you shouldn't say that about anything. I don't think it's something to mess with. It's not up to us. You shouldn't say that about anything. It's not up to us who makes it or does.

Yeah, and I always thought that was the announcement. That was basically the official announcement that the Son of God was here. And this was different. Because remember, everything up to that point was baptism of John, which was a baptism of repentance, which obviously Jesus didn't need to do. He never sin. That's right. So what this baptism was ushering in the era of Jesus as actually being here.

Well, I want to make this point to what Zach said about being, you know, called from something to something. You got to remember, you know, in Romans 6, his, he wasn't giving a three-point sermon on baptism. Just like in Colossians, it was to what Zach said. He was using it as an illustration. In Romans 6, he asked a question. I mean, he had just gone through five chapters of, starting off the first three chapters, this is how it goes awfully wrong.

Yep, brutal. And this is how God made it awesomely right. Yep. And so he gets to six. I mean, it's so awesome what God. did through his grace, you have these people here who say, ask a question. Well, what shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? So what kind of question is that? Which I'm saying it's like the same one about baptism saying, well, do I have to? It's an erroneous

question. And but he answers it because there are some people out there who say, oh, well, if I don't know. Jay, hold on, no. Back up just one, but he's, the question that is being asked there is, is based on the last statement that he makes in Romans five that he basically says, let me tell you how big God's grace is. The more you sin, the more grace you get. So the question, it is a logical question because it's like, wait a second. I send more and I get more grace. And Paul's like, yes. But the lead to say, let's go send some more because of that?

It is erroneous. That's a little disturbing to me. It's disturbing because, yeah, I think it is disturbing because it misses the point, which is that's what he's addressing is what kind of mind. You've missed the whole thing if that's the kind of question you're asking. Well, right or wrong. Yeah, I mean, I agree. But the point is, of all the things he could then use to say,

No. You don't, this shouldn't motivate you to sin more because the more you sin, the more God's grace covers you. He says by no means we died to sin, how can we live in it any longer? Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized in his death? We were there very with him through baptism and to death,

just as Christ was raised from the dead to the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. And if you skip down to verse 6, for we know their old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with. We shouldn't be slaves to sin because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. So the thing he goes back to on why you shouldn't go out and sin more as a motivation, even though God's grace would cover you more, is he takes you back to your participation or your surrender, however you want to phrase it,

your baptism, reenacting Jesus' death, battle resurrection. Well, in Colossians, he does a similar thing. We have people that have infiltrated the church who through hollowing and deceptive philosophy, based on human traditions and basic principles of the world, they're introducing things other than Christ as the focal point to their salvation and existence. So what does he do? He brings up this same participation. So he, in verse 9 of 2, he says,

in Christ all the fullness lives in bodily form. You've been given fullness in Christ. He then says, you know, the circumcision by Christ, verse 12, haven't been buried with him in baptism, raised with him through your faith in the power of God. And then it's similar to Romans 6 in that, he then goes to grace instead of law as the way your performance as opposed to God's performance on how you're saved through 13 and 14, which is what I really wanted to talk about today.

I just think it's interesting, two different occasions in Roman 6th and Colossians. This comes up as an important point on why you shouldn't do something. that's outside of living by God's grace. Let's take her last break. What I thought about Jay's 2, he also brings up the same thought in 1st Corinthians 15, meaning the death and resurrection when he talks about Jesus, and he uses some of these same words that you see in Colossians and also in Rome 6.

He says, where old death is your victory, where old death is your sting? The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law, but thanks be to God, he gave us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Then he says, because therefore, stand firm, don't let anything move you. And, you know, you're laboring the Lord. You do that law in there.

That's a good point. Yeah. So it's the same concept and idea that that's what happens when Christ is truly the Lord of your life. Because remember he started in verse 6 by saying, you receive Jesus Christ as Lord. And so it's about Lordship. It's about who you decide to follow. And so that's why, you know, you're right. You had these people that obviously their focus was gone from Jesus.

And look, it's a modern problem. This isn't an ancient problem. It's the same thing happens today. It continues. I must confess. You want to say something to that? Yeah, I was just going to say that, you know, you're going back to your point in Romans 6. Romans 6, it's all kind of setting up this case he's making in verse 12 moving forward,

which is like, you're, you're, you're, you are equipped through your connection with Christ. You are equipped to live a new life. And I love how he ends it here in verse 19 or near the end of Roman 6. He said, I'm speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, and you never get to the end of sin, right? It just keeps getting worse and worse.

He now says, now present your members as slaves to righteousness resulting in sanctification. And if we define sanctification as being freed from the grip or the power of sin progressively over time, what that means is that we are called to do good works, not to be saved, but because we're saved. And as a result of that, the desires of our hearts are going to change, and sin's not going to have the power or the grip over us like it did. And that's really what I think most people are looking for. They want to know how can my desires be redirected towards God? We'll go out and participate in the habits and the rhythms that would lead you to righteousness. And as a result of that, you're going to find that God's going to sanctify you more and more. Yeah, I was just making the point that when the issue came up about human performance, Roman 6th, or human tradition,

in Colossians 2. He combated that argument in talking about Jesus and the baptism that occurs because of your belief in that, which people who water down baptism, they say that that's human performance or tradition. But he's actually, that was his argument on it not being about your performance or tradition. Yep. That's the point I was trying to get at. Your ability. So having said all that, having said all that, the biggest cricket sermon and confrontation I ever had when I gave a class,

is I taught a class on Colossians 2, 13 through 15, but it was an overview of Colossians. It was called the canceled code. and it went over like a lead balloon because I asked the question how many laws and commands are we under and I just opened it up to the audience and I got anything everything from 10 to 600

to you know various numbers in between and I mean it was just cricket so even a couple of leaders confirming they're like you know just because we're not under that as far as salvation doesn't mean it's canceled. Now I'm sitting here reading this. I'm like

he forgave us all our sins having canceled the written code with its regulations that was against us and that stood opposed to us. He took it away and nailing it to the cross and have disarmed the powers and authorities and made a public spectacle of them triumph and over the cross. And I went I went through this deal about where, you know, when Jesus said, and I mean, look, I may be wrong on this, but where he said my burden is light, my yoke is easy. And I had this, what I think it is, it's because you went from 600 and, how many laws were there in Leviticus, how? 600 and any change. Yeah. Yeah. To two. But because living a Christian life is hard. I mean, look at it. Paul's given several paragraphs of what.

happens when you go public for jesus it can be difficult especially you with you know even my situation of my personal life right now you know because i believe god gives life and i want to practice what i preach you know i've taken on this this newborn but boy it it you know it's your time energy passion money it's just been difficult it's it clears it up for me the little text in Galasin 323, before this faith came, and that's what he's discussing in Colossians and Romans 6. If you didn't have faith in the grace of God,

before this faith, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law, he said, what was the purpose of the code and having him canceling it for us? it's the greatest event that ever happened. Because it gives you the reason. So the law was put in charge.

You said, well, what's it there? To lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now the faith has come. We are no longer under the supervision of the law. It's the greatest thing that ever happened. You would think. But I wasn't sure why ever the, you know, a lot of people got really upset with me about that.

You had nailed on the head. I mean, I just read a minute ago. Paul said the power of sin is the law. That's right. Which is funny because Romans 6... You can't do a word with the whole thing, all these verses. The Roman 6th point is, hey, look, if you want to get out of lawlessness, then you have to get out from under the law.

That's the irony. Correct. That's right. That's right. That's the power of the gospel right there. I don't know how to get out. of lawlessness, then you need to get out from under the law. When you get out from under the law, then you live under grace, then you will not be a slave to lawlessness. But haven't you seen

outside of our discussion of the Bible, just in human nature during the pandemic, about people's pull to tyranny and wanting to make rules for people and then tell people how to live? I mean, it has been so natural, just the natural part of man, for people to say, whether it's mask or whatever, And it's like, we want to make rules and we want to enforce rules and we want to tell you how to live. I mean, it's just it's human nature. But the same thing is happening in churches, I think his whole point was. Oh, no doubt about it. You got people coming in there and making a rule system.

It is interesting that Jay said he went to Colossians 2, which as it turns out mentions baptism. And he also, faith, repentance, baptism. He also in Romans 6 did the same thing. Well, I just quoted Galatians chapter 3 and the next thing he says, you are no longer under the supervision of the law

well here it goes again. You're all sons or daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All have he been baptized have clod yourself with it. There's no... With Christ, which is my point. It's interesting that... The bigger point was Jesus because some people have taken

baptism, which was his point. about pointing back to Jesus and a life filled with grace and made that a rule. That is correct. And took Jesus out of that. I mean, it's like the lawkeeping ability of people has no bounds. That's right. It is amazing. If you want to make a rule, just give it a minute.

It's actually all those texts are about grace instead of law. That's right. Everyone. That's what's so. But you have to have some point in time when you're no longer. under the law. Yeah. You say,

well, how do you get out of? I'm actually glad you brought this up again because I felt like I wanted to talk about that yesterday, but it just went off the rails. Well, I'm just glad that y'all, you guys agree with me now.

I read this is big. It's a big moment. Well, you know, that's what happens. That's what happens when you sleep on it. I agree with everybody. We're all for this here.

You know? All right. Let's put Jesus at the center, and that's everything else will work. So we're going to have to, we're going to have to sing Kumb by yah in the overtime segment now that we're all on the same page but uh i do want us to hit the last part of chapter two in our overtime that's going to lead us into the next podcast

which will be coliseans 3 if we're not careful we'll turn into these factions like it was in the first century some paula fifs some father paul you know you got something i'm with a dasher guy i'm with dasher i'm with i think jac is right i think oh field over you know i mean you know We've got to be careful. Each one of us would be a copy. That's why you've got thousands of different groups out there. This is how it happens. Let's just say we're Jesus men.

How about that? Yeah. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click that little bell to get notified about new episodes. And for even more content that you won't get anywhere else, subscribe to Blaze TV at BlazTV.

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