Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 494 | Phil Gets an Update from the Heart of Greece & God's Use of the Dead Sea Scrolls

Episode Date: June 12, 2022

Phil, Al, and Jase are joined in the studio by Larry Bowles of the Acro Center in Greece to talk about his ministry in Athens. Jase recalls his experience in Athens, when a Russian man confronted Missy on Mars Hill. Larry describes teaching people who are risking their lives to hear the word of God and helping them understand that Jesus is God, not just a prophet. Jase looks at the huge influence dreams have on Greeks' lives. And Phil reacts to Larry discussing the Dead Sea Scrolls and how they were a great example of God's revelation to the world in modern times. Sign up to watch the Unashamed overtime show, only on BlazeTV: https://BlazeTV.com/Unashamed - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? So we got our old pal, Larry Bowles, is back on the podcast. You're going to actually sitting on a couple of podcasts. We call him the ringer. He's my favorite missionary from Oklahoma. Do you know any other missionaries from Oklahoma? No, but there are some. Well, welcome, Larry. We're glad you're back.

It's always good. You're a fan favorite as well Because in fact, Cade, who's normally here, he's not here today Our engineer, yesterday after I was telling these guys That you were going to be here today And he was like, man, that guy's really good I mean, and those guys never say anything He was genuinely sad that he was not getting me out.

He was like that he was going to miss it. I said, well, you'll probably get to work on edit So you'll get to hear. Oh, my God. But we're all, it's always a pleasure We've taught before. And you were just saying, tell what you said about people said about Jason.

Every time I've been on here, I look at this Bible. I said it's intimidating to sit here and talk about the Word of God with these guys. Because, I mean, you guys are up in it to your eyebrows. And I said, everybody's always making comments about starting to go fund me for Jace, a new Bible, because it's falling smooth. We've tried to get a new Bible. The problem is it's not laid out in this way. This is from 1984.

Right. And so someone thought they found one, but it's one page off. So everywhere, because I have a weird. For some reason, Jason, Dad can only have everything in the same place forever. I mean, we know where it is on the page. That's the way I am. I enjoy that, but I'm just saying I can still look up a Bible verse in another Bible. It's pretty much the same concept.

It's not all your side notes. And everything in mind is highlighted, but he can't sing the song now, Matthew, Mark, Mark, Luke, and Jar. You know, because it's out of order. He's got to change. Well, it could be out of order. It could be. By the way, Jason, I just saw, I saw you a little blurb a while ago. You saw my blurb on Fox News.

You saw a blurb on Fox News. All about the treasure hunting. It was on? Yep. Ten minutes ago. Breaking news, Phil, knows something. I don't. I was like the most non-technology person I know.

I just looked. It said duck. And I'm like, it said duck treasure. whatever. Close enough. It was quick. You know, they don't want to spend

too much money. They're not spending any money. I'm about spending money and get it on there. Well, it's there. It's their, it's their, uh,

so, keep it brief. Was it like, I mean, that's all you got? It just came up in between them, you know, Perino,

Nana Perino and its other guy, you know. Bill Himmer. The Hammer, they were just going along of it, when it went to the commercials, that come up,

duck, treasure, or whatever. Oh, like coming soon or something. Oh, well, good, Phil. It has to be good. I'm glad you have your ear to the ground of the promotion. We're in trouble when dad's the first one to know. I'm very limited in the television I can watch.

I mean, no TV except Matt Dillon. And now your son has pulled you back in as we have the show. But now I'm kind of looking at it again to see, has it changed much in a year and a half? And it has, and it's gone. The arguments and the friction and the shootings and the just sinful. Maybe we can provide a safe oasis. I'm telling you, this is like a pleasure to read the Word of God. It's what we got going on in our culture.

It's a killing field out of town. That's bad. So just to clarify for Unashamed Nation, Larry was joking about the GoFundMe, and please don't send Bibles because you guys do. And look, it's very, we appreciate it, but you're already here. And if it's not this exact Bible,

it's not going to work. And by the way, you can't find this example. It's very difficult to find it. I was fortunate to get this one, the people make them, the guy that we converted. Bob DeMoss. Bob DeMoss.

He got that one for Dad. We did the Duck Commander version of the Bible, you know, what's about people. Well, you can get those rebound as long as you still have all the pages. Okay, well, I need to do that. You need to go and count. Yeah, I need to.

I mean, we're beyond rebound. You got to remember, I'm not the most disciplined fellow in the world. So I have to work out ways that forces me to study the word because this is my first in true love. Yeah. So when I went to the school, I was like, well, I'm never going to be a paid preacher, which that turned out to be true. But I thought the byproduct of this is I'm going to be forced to study this for two years.

Yeah. So and now since doing this podcast. You were only 18 when you went? Yeah, I needed that. You just got out of the house. Yeah, I mean, I needed it from a big picture situation. I mean, I needed to, you got to, you know, what was that saying, Bill Smith? You said you can't have the, can't have the lightning until you have the thunder or something about studying the word.

Right, right, right. He also said that sermon prep was 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. Wow. Trying to make us work, you know, is the idea. I don't know that I agree with that now, but back then it caused me to work harder, which was good. So you mentioned about preacher. Larry is not a preacher. He's not a paid preacher.

And I think we've talked about it before, but tell folks like, you were a firefighter. So how did all that happen? Your wife told a story last night. We had a meeting. Which, by the way, I'm so excited to be able to tell our unashamed audience that we've expanded our partnership. Larry is and Kathy are ambassadors for One Kingdom, which Ryan King, Ryan, King. Ryan Lee is in the house, and he's the director of One Kingdom. And so that was kind of our initial point of working with you guys in Athens and what you do.

Jason, of course, and Missy went to Athens. But we're super excited because you're going to be coming over some more, doing some teaching for us with our church, which, you know, we're excited about that. And I'm hoping that, I mean, you'll be more guest appearances on The Unashamed podcast. I mean, yeah, if that's what everybody wants and, you know, look out. It's the perfect storm. It's like the show that Phil was, and I appreciate him giving me, because by the time this airs, I think the show will be out. Maybe so.

Or right about then, yeah. But it's a perfect situation for me because it was our audience that listened to the podcast. It was their idea. I said, do y'all think I should do this show about treasure hunting? Yeah. So now if it's just no good, I can say, wasn't my fault. They wanted to do it. Just responding to the.

Yeah, I was responding to the people. So it's no way to leave. Yeah. So Kathy said last night, and I'm going to quote her and probably get myself a truck. When we got married, we've been married 42 years. When we got married, she said, okay, here's the deal. There's three things that you can't be. You cannot be a mortician.

you can't be a gynecologist and you cannot be a preacher. And I said, that's interesting. I said, okay. So as a fireman for 25 years, I handled dead bodies and I delivered seven, eight kids in the field, you know. Oh, wow. Really? And so delivering babies and all this kind of stuff. Technically not a preacher.

I, yeah. So I, I, I, I, I, you went under the radar. But you really. Missionary, not quite to the same paid preacher level. Right. It's like you're saying, you know, we're just spreading the seed. This is Luke 8. We're just throwing it with both hands, you know.

Yeah, exactly. Well, how did you get all your Bible knowledge? I studied. I read. I mean, I'm literate. I can read. And so I read books. And, you know, yesterday we did the context of 2 Corinthians.

and I said, everything I'm about to tell you, we know from the book of Acts and First and Second Corinthians, Paul's interaction with the Church of Corinth, it's laying in your lap. What you've got to do is read what it says, but we don't read scripture that way. Right. Yeah, exactly. And so when we're talking about this veil, this, you know, 2 Corinthians 3 thing, the only way that veil is lifted that we can see the glory of Christ is that we turn to Jesus face to face, and then that veil is removed, and then we can see.

see the glory in the light of the gospel, which is in the face of Jesus. I mentioned one time that it's pretty interesting that written in the first century, we're talking 2,000 years. Right. If you pick up something that's pertinent, 2,000 years from the time it was written, you might have to check that out. Exactly. You see what I'm saying?

Exactly. Because you say, hi, in the world, look at the slow flow. of information. I mean, maybe he's in prison and that gets to you two thousand years later without computers. And that's what people don't understand. What we have laying in front of us is not only brought and breathed by God, but it is preserved by God. And this is what happened with the Dead Sea Scrolls, 1948. You know, they're throwing rocks in a cave and they hit this pottery and it shatters and they run up there. And here's the scroll of Isaiah.

Yeah. A complete scroll of Isaiah that was kind of the crown jewel of that entire fine, but thousands and thousands and thousands of documents. But the idea that that read exactly like you've got it in your Bible. Yeah. That's incredible. I mean, and so what God is doing at that point is just showing off. And that document was a thousand years older than anything that we had.

Right. as far as textual criticism and biblical authenticity. And so, yeah, this is not only written by God and inspired by God, but it has been protected across all of these thousands of years to bring us the truth. Evan and nurse will pass away, Jesus said, these words aren't going anywhere. And they haven't. And, you know, he could have decided to, because if you were in charge, you could pick the time when this would go down.

And so he picked a time where, like you said, Phil, there was very little, if any, technology. And I'm pretty sure it's been the number one selling book for how many years. Since they started doing books. I mean, it's, so somewhere in there he had, you know, a wisdom, obviously, greater than ours from a bit. Well, and it does say, I can't mean where Paul said. when this time had fully come.

I mean, like, the time, he came when he was supposed to come. I mean, from the divine perspective. Exactly. And so, I mean, that happened exactly. In the fullness of time. In the fullness of time. There you go. Before we get into what we're going to be talking about today and the next podcast,

just because I know we have a lot of new listeners, and we kind of have you on periodically. But I want you to tell about what you're doing in Greece and kind of, because that's what drew us to you initially, that and you gave this material. we're going to do the next couple of podcasts. Jason and I both heard it. We're like, oh, this guy, we've got to find out more about him. But tell about it, because it's really amazing what God is doing there and what you guys

have been doing for the last few years. So tell a little bit about that so the audience will be reminded. Yeah, we had been medical missions. I was a paramedic with the fire department for all these years and had been to, you know, Guatemala and Honduras and other places doing some medical missions, Mexico. and we used to routinely go into Mexico, and so I was pretty boned up on my Spanish, you know, and all this sort of thing.

And then the drug wars kind of started, and so we took a trip to visit a friend who was in Athens. He was working with refugees, you know, that we didn't hardly even know anything about. And this had been started about 2009, and we got over there and saw what was happening and what Jesus was doing and the doors that were.

open, all of these countries you can't get into, and Jesus is just bringing them to you. It's like standing in a doorway. So, you know, he's just, so you don't, it's not even really evangelism. It's just like you just deal with that he's bringing. Yeah. And, you know, Jesus came to seek and to save the loss. Well, guess what? He's still seeking and still saving. And so we're just looking for those that were looking for Jesus. And everybody's parachuting in, and it's all a kind of a humanitarian thing. And I look around and I'm like, nobody is teaching a Bible at all. And so I just, I did not go and intend to be a Bible teacher over there.

But I guess if, you know, God can speak through Balaam's donkey, he can talk through a retired fireman, you know. And so if, you know, how, we're, we're, we're jars of clay that this treasure is put in. And the biggest thing that we do is show up. And this is like Second Kings 4. This is the widow's oil jar. It's just like, if you don't show up empty and willing, he's never going to use you for anything. But if you do that, he will fill you up and you pour yourself out every day. He'll fill you up again.

And so the word is living and active. It is powerful. And so what I began to do was I didn't have these people for very long. And so they would come. And Messianic prophecy is what drew them in because they believe the New Testament, the Engeal, is corrupted. Yeah. But they absolutely accept the things that come from the Old Testament.

And so that's where I began my journey in Messianic prophecy. And I just began, like you saying, I just began studying and studying and studying and going through all of these 300 references to Messianic prophecies. there's about 60 or 70 that are direct prophecies, there are signs, direct prophecies, shadows, idioms, things that were, you know, that we didn't know where prophecies till Jesus brought them, you know, is like the sign of Jonah.

We thought that was just about Jonah. Oh, no, this is about three days on the third day. This is about the resurrection. Exactly. Oh, yeah. And so it's just amazing the level of detail down to 30 pieces of silver, a kiss on a cheek or a donkey tied up, you know, down a street and around a corner.

You know, it's just unbelievable. So you talk about the fullness of time. Everything that Jesus did was orchestrated. And it's just like how we got this. I mean, everything is completely superintended by God for his glory so that we can see his salvation. And that's Jesus. His very name means. And all your, all your, all your, let's take a break.

All of your questions and all of your problems all solved. All worked out in advance. Right. All fixed. Right. You know what I'm saying? I do. I do.

I mean, it's a incredible thing to sit down with a group of Afghans or Iranians. And they have never held a Bible in their hand. And so you've got 20 or 30, you're sitting in a circle. You're like, okay, I don't know what I'm doing or about to do. But they hold this Bible, and they can go to jail in their country for 10 years for even possessing one. So you put one, and the first thing to do is look over their shoulder like what does kind of set up deal is. Right. And so you just begin to teach, and then they ask you questions that you've never thought of, you know,

And I'm like, Jesus, if you don't show up, I got nothing. I'm just out here speaking your name. He is, this is my testimony. He is faithful and he is true. And he has never left me hanging one time. He has shown me scriptures. I barely knew that we're there. He has connected things in that moment.

And it's just, it's amazing to watch him minister in spite of me. And so we, we show up. Yeah. And he uses us. But there's power in the name of Jesus, and there's power in these scriptures. Not only did you guys introduce these people to Christ, but then you have spent time discipling, teaching. That's the thing.

Right. Molding. Well, it moved on to that. Right. It kind of morphed into the Accro Center. And everybody's like, what was your plan? I didn't have no plan. You know?

You haven't some interpreters that helped you with the language barrier? Absolutely. And that's another good. question. I worked with a guy named Javad, and he is just closer than a brother to me, but there's not a lot of theological language in Farsi. Yeah, well, good. So when you're talking about substitutionary atonement, it's not in there, you know, or any of that kind of stuff. And so, you know, teaching at that deeper levels, especially when you're talking about the biblical basis for the doctor's you've got to get them to understand the concepts to try to then. He's, yeah. Well, he was my

interpreter when I was there because I was feeling nervous about it because I thought you're going to have your hands full. But according to him, it went over pretty well. I mean, I tried not to use any idioms whatsoever. See, this is what he does for me. He makes me look good all the time. And I don't even know anything about it. So I mean, if you can do it with me, he can do it with you. Every once while I'd say a sentence or two and he'd go a paragraph and I'd be like, yeah, he is, he's taking your thought and making it where they can understand it. And from what I understand, so he and others that were, how many years has it been for them now when they first came?

If I came, and he came to Christ in 2009. Okay. So now you're talking about a lot of years, and these guys now are their next level. I mean, you've trained them now, and they're reaching back in. They don't, I just need to get out of the way. And they, yeah, I mean, these guys are just, it's going. gangbusters and the stuff they're doing over the internet, like Iran, people don't realize Iran's internet dark, kind of like North Korea. And there's not a lot of way to get video in, but satellite

and then they can do a couple other social media platforms that give them about 16 seconds of video. And there are just people coming to Christ right and left. And now we've got about six or eight underground churches that are in Iran and they can't get to us. We can't get to them. And so we're going to try to get some of them out meeting a neutral country and basically give them this Accro Center training and send them back and let them do their thing. Because this is something Jesus is doing and it's happening with or without us. And I just want to be involved in the way that he is doing. What is the Accro Center?

Is that an Athens Christian refugee organization. I need it. It's an acronym. Right. Because you've got the Acropolis, Acropolis, and all that kind of thing. I needed a name. It doesn't mean anything. I wanted to post to know because they were like, what is a macro center?

But it's been incredible and that we've gotten to come alongside and participate. And of course, Ryan has been, Jay's been. It's just, it's amazing. I mean, Dad and I were in Athens a few years ago when we were filming his movie called Torch Bear. And, you know, we didn't know you guys, obviously at that point. Right. We could have connected. but we were both taken, I mean, it took us by surprise just how huge the city.

Like, you know, because you in your mind, you see the Acropolis or, you know, you see Marseille and you're thinking of it like way off somewhere. And then you're standing there and you're looking back over this vast, massive amount of humanity. It's 156 square miles with about 6 million people sitting in it. It's just insanely. It's a bowl of humanity. Yeah, that's what we were thinking of that. Which has made it resonate from the...

It's a lot like first century evangelism in that... It wasn't much different. The blowback's there. The persecution is there. I mean, it's a, you know... When we got on Mars Hill, guess what happened? Somebody came up. I think he was from Russia.

And next thing you know, I saw Missy. I could tell the inflection in her voice changed. And I thought, no, he's not... Because he was... He said something about he didn't believe in God. Well, we were reading Acts 17, and he kind of challenged the whole Jesus thing. Yeah, Missy was reading it. I think, was Missy read the X-17?

Yeah. Yeah, she was reading it, and we had someone who said, no. And boy. It was game on. It was. But, I mean, the same thing was happening in Act 17. I know. That's what's amazing about it.

Dad, there were people crying when he just quoted it. Yeah. We were filming him kind of guerrilla. I memorized the whole thing, and they just, we got up on Mars Hill there where Paul stood. Yeah. And they had a little square little block there. They said that's about where the Apostle Paul stood when he's talking back here a couple thousand years ago. So I just stood there and just let one rip.

I was basically a holler, and it's an outdoor thing. Well, these people were milling around on the top of it. They were from Asia, all kinds of countries. Well, when I got done, the film crew were looking at me like because a lot of them just crying people were clapping I mean it was they thought it was just like performance artists

and they didn't know who we were we were breaking the law in Greece we were breaking it. We weren't supposed to film on behalf of the one supposed to film you guys are always pushing the edge those types of limitations run out of them the you know the more of that conversation

with Missy and the Russian went on you could tell he had been broken he was better. And so I was looking at it from a heavenly perspective. I'm like, no, for some reason, he showed up here, which is what we kept coming back to. What did you show up here for? You know, and here's one of the sisters, my wife, sharing this,

and then this confrontation happened. It just seemed like a God-orchestrated meeting. Yeah. And so I thought, yep, I mean, Once you look past the wounds and the bitterness and the things that were coming out, I mean, he had had some childhood memory that was that. I remember how that conversation began and I also remember how it ended. I looked at him, you know, and he's showing me all this, you know, stuff on his phone.

And I'm like, you know, but Jesus asked a question in Mark 829. and this is a question that really rings across the fabric of humanity and always will. Who do you say that I am? Yeah. So who do you say Jesus is? You know, it all comes down to that. Exactly. This is kind of where the core of that, when we're talking about the Accrocentre curriculum,

what am I going to teach these people? Because nobody comes to Athens to stay. Everybody's leaving next week if they can get out or get a smuggler or whatever. get to Germany or wherever they're trying to go. It's just a portal, right? I mean, it's, yeah. They're coming from the Middle East. There's nothing there.

Yeah. You know, and they find more trouble and more oppression and, you know, all this kind of stuff, especially, you know, in the earlier years. And just, we had groups running around, just beating up refugees. And I was doing sutures. I buy 3-0 silk and a needle. And I'm, you know, I'm stitching people up from getting beat up by these people on the street.

It was just awful. And so I thought, you know, You know, I've got them in this space between my arms and my chest for just this long. And they have come to Christ and it's punishable by death in their culture. And they go back to this camp. I mean, their life is in danger. They are, it cost us nothing to come to Christ. Cost them absolutely everything.

Yeah. Yeah. And so I am teaching out of a sense of protection for them because I want to give them the ability to articulate their faith, not by their own opinion, but from scripture in five minutes. Why do you believe Jesus is God? Yeah. And that's what this hands curriculum is about. Right, which we're going to get into.

Let's take a break. Yeah, let's do that. So, yeah, so that's a perfect segue, Larry. So the first time and longtime podcast listeners will remember, we were back in the lodge, and the first time we heard you teach this material. It was the first time I never heard, Larry, because I remember I'll live. leaned over and told Missy, I said, this is not a typical

missionary. Oh, this is a donkey that God's using. Yeah, but you were sharing Jesus. What I'm saying is when you got up, when you got up, you got you. You shared Jesus and you didn't ask for money. That was like, what kind of missionary is it? That's exactly what I was going to say. I said

he's focusing on Jesus and it's not asking for money. And I say, he's a lot sharper than he looks. It's like an old Aredale dog. But Missy, I remember her saying something along the lines, they probably said the same thing about John Nevada's and you. Yeah.

So I thought, yeah, a point taken. But, I mean, and I heard that, I said, I'm in. Because I think the focus on Jesus is the point. When you read all these letters, and we keep doing these books and these letters and these podcasts, but they pretty much say the same thing in different ways.

It keeps coming back to that. It comes back to a focus on Jesus is. That's how God chose to reveal himself. He's the image of the invisible God. Yeah. So you taught this on a Sunday morning, combined Bible class. And we were so in love with what you taught that I asked you for your notes and you sent it to me. And then we did it on the podcast. And so this has been maybe first time we met you,

maybe three years ago. Yeah. So I thought we're kind of in transition on the podcast in terms of what book we're going to next. So I was like, since you were in town, I said, let's do it with Larry, since it's his material and he does it way better than we do. So this is a revisit to the deity of Jesus. And so I want to just go into it about this. You have an acronym. that's really good. By the way, Bould's that they're alluding to the old guy, I gave a speech,

preach the gospel to them up in Little Rock, Arkansas, under a tent. And I got all fired up, you know. Then I walked over there. We had a little table set up a duck call there, and some old guy walked up there, and he's looking at me like, yeah. I said, how's it going?

What are you thinking? He said, I'll tell you what I got out of that speech. I said, what's that? He said, you like one of them old are. You ain't dumb as you look. that's a backhanded compliment that is out there. I appreciate that. Yeah.

You're not quite sure how to take it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, like I said, I kind of went into, because all these people started coming to Christ. And Jesus has already found them. They're coming to me, you know, looking for answers. And so we start delving into the Word, and they're getting beat up over their faith, and their lives are at risk.

And so I respond out of a kind of that emergency management fire thing, you know. These ethnic groups, are they different groups from different countries? Or is it basically Arabs? We've encountered people from like 22 different Muslim countries standing right there in Athens. But the probably five major groups would be Afghans would be number one, Iranians. Which would cause a certain amount of friction. And just that. Oh, they don't, yeah, they don't get along.

Yeah. So they, it's, yeah, every people group. And, you know, we're all these about. And these people, by the way, they're fleeing their own countries. These are the people running from all that garden. Loving your neighbor is like, yeah. I mean. But I mean, yeah, it's, they, they get what doesn't work.

You don't have to explain to them what Islam is. Yeah. There's not one of them who believes Islam is. religion of peace. That's not been their life experience. And so they they don't know anything about the religion of Islam. They know what it is to live under the political and military system, and they see the result of it, and that's why they're running. Right, right. And so I, this is, I can't, yeah, they finally hit a point that something jarred. People don't choose to be refugees. That's right. Yeah. And so desperate people do desperate things. And so when they began to run,

And so they come to me and they come to Christ and now they've lost everything. And so I'm trying to pour into them because I don't know how long I've got them. And I don't need a three-year biblical studies program. It's not going to work in this environment. And so all of missionology, if you start reading, we've had groups come to Athens for a decade and they're parachuting in. And they'll last about a year and they're like, man, this is hard. we're leaving, you know, and they, because... That was my thought.

Because nothing in missionology works in Athens. Athens was such a unique thing, and it was so fluid, so dynamic, and it would change not year to year, but it would change season to season. And so, especially during the tourist season and that sort of thing, that was the easiest time for them to be able to leave and get out. And so you had to, this had to be down and dirty. So I'm just praying, Lord, just whatever I need to teach, let me teach that. And what came to me was like messianic prophecy, proven who Jesus is from Scripture and the deity of Christ.

Jesus is not God, Jr. Once you get them to understand that Jesus is God in the flesh, that he's not a prophet, because they've all heard about Jesus. Jesus has mentioned 91 times in the Quran. They accept him as a prophet, but he can't be God. So in their mind, if you wanted to become a Muslim, you'd go to a mosque and you'd say, Allah is one and he can have no begotten. That's the very first thing they teach a child is that it begins as an attack on the deity of Christ. So I began reading and looking and reaching out to people.

There's a book by Robert Bowman. and I wrote Robert and told him I was going to talk about it, but it's called putting Jesus in his place. And it is about the deity of Christ because he makes the argument that this is not God Jr. This is God in the flesh. And the problem that people have with understanding the deity of Christ is that they don't understand the nature of God or the Trinity,

or this triune being. I think it was C.S. Lewis said, Christianity cannot compete in simplicity with people who are making up religions. Yeah. Because you don't have any facts to worry about. Right. When you have facts to worry about, I mean, this is how God chose to reveal himself. We only know God in the ways that he chooses to reveal himself.

Right. And so he has revealed himself as this triune one God, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. And so anyway, going back to the idea that they have to understand that Jesus is not just a prophet like Muhammad. So Muhammad wanted to be a greater prophet than Jesus, so Jesus couldn't be God. He's just a prophet. Moses just a prophet. And so Moses had a book. Jesus had a book.

Now, Muhammad is their baseline coming out of all they know. Okay, I got you. So when you look at it. Hang on, just let's take another break. When you look at it from my perspective, Though, what I noticed there is most of the people I talked to and shared with and that you were disciplining and the ones come to the Lord, they felt like they felt a sense of God presence just for them making it to Greece alive. Most of them had a near-death experience just getting there. And so you know what that does?

Well, it makes you a little more open-minded to what's out there because you, I've always said that a near-death experience, change your life, but it gets your attention. Oh, man. It did get my. It gets your attention. And ultimately, when you get to who Jesus is and the resurrection, I mean, you've gone full circle in, the Lord softened your heart. And I mean, I think that's why the Lord led you there. Yeah. Because you had a perfect situation for people coming in. They're out of oppression and abuse and tyranny. And now their hearts are softened because they almost die. I mean, how many stories did we hear just that I heard in a week about being shipwrecked or one of them was up under a truck, you know, trying to get across the border. Desper people do, desperate things.

Yeah, and he got his, you know, something in the gears and there to look at him on the truck. There's a man. Hang it out. Put him in jail. I mean, the stories were incredible. And then all of a sudden, they're shown the fruits of the spirit, you know, by you and your team and your wife. And then they're introduced to Jesus, which they had already heard about, but not in this way. Right.

And they connect the dots. There's another element here. And this is the thing. I have never led anybody to Christ that he hadn't already found them and brought them to me. Oh, I agree. It's, you know, we'll tell these stories about these dreams and visions and all this. And I'll walk into church and just tell them. And I'll have a brother come up and say, well, I don't know if I believe that.

I'm like, well, brother, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just telling you what's happening. And you don't, you know, you see that, oh, I don't know, a couple of thousand times over a decade. It kind of gets your mind around the fact that Jesus doesn't need your theological permission to do what he's going to do. He's just doing it. And so I don't understand it. I did notice a lot of them would have some kind of dream or some kind of feeling or on their track there. You know, it just, you heard a lot of various stories.

Which I find interesting because when you study the Old Testament, so much was spoken in dreams to people. Oh, it's huge. I mean, it's all throughout. And that's something they would understand anyway. And that is part and parcel to their culture where it's not really ours. That's right. And so we have this Western way of thinking, this linear thought. They have this circular way of thinking Eastern, you know.

And so it's something you have to get used to. It's hard to get in that frame of mind. That's it. You know, when you're out there in the ocean and your boats crash and, you know, you just have a perspective of life. This is the parable of the sower again. You're so distracted by, you know, the rocks and the weeds and everything else, the cares of this world. And that's the thing when they finally get to a point of safety, they're harder to reach. Right.

Well, you catch them in that moment. It's like, man, I thought I came here for a European passport. And what I got was a passport to heaven. You know, I got a ticket on the J train, and I mean, it changes everything. But you know what's interesting, even across culture, what you're going to present, what we're talking about in the deity of Jesus is the same answer for us. And our distracted culture. That's what I was going to say. That's why it impacted Jason and I so much when we heard you the first time because we were like, man, we got to get this to the folks that listen to us.

Because we're like, this is what gets your attention to not be distracted by the cares of the world. Well, that's what I've said many times. I'd have to come to an agreement on Jesus, and we'll work out the rest stuff later. Exactly. But when I heard you speak, I mean, I've told this story before, I immediately, after our little conversation about, yeah, I'd say, get missing, write him a check. And she's like, well, I'm not even sure they're needing money. I was like, I don't care. I just like the work that you were doing.

She's like, well, we can, you know, we can give it to the church. And I was like, write the man a check. I'm behind. I'm in. Most men. Well, not throw it in the trash can. Yeah, it was used for Jesus' glory. But getting back to this hands thing, so this book, this Robert Bowman is one of my favorite

apologists, one of my favorite theologians, he wrote this book, and he came up with this hands thing. That's all him. But I wrote him, I said, I've taken this for a touchdown. He wrote this basically to try to reach into the Jehovah's Witness crowd, you know, because it's basically, it's the same. And he had never really seen the parallel with Islam. I'm like, no, dude, this is, it's the same issue.

It comes down to this Mark 829. Who do you say that I am? Is Jesus God or is he not? That's what it's always going to be about. Which comes to every human being at some point. Right, exactly. And so I, you know, these people are in danger. They may be leaving any time.

So I need a quick way to help them from Scripture. articulate their faith in Christ, and they've got this with them all the time. Yep. And so I said, all right, he... With those you listening, he's holding it up his hands. Yeah, yeah. And so you've got five fingers here. And so he has the honors that only God has.

He has the attributes that only God possesses. He has the names that only belong to God. He does the deeds that only God does, and he sits in the... the seat that only God occupies. And so I teach them how to do that and memorize scriptures that go with that from the Old Testament that prove that he is who he says he is in all of these I am statements. And they just peel it off. And so they, if I was to walk into church and ask somebody, you know, tell me why you

believe Jesus is God. You know, I mean, they'd have to think about it. These guys, you can walk up to them and they can peel it off in five minutes from scripture. Using that hand. That's it. Going right through the power. And they've got it with them all the time. They've got nothing else.

And so that is be ready in season, out of season to give a reason for the hope that you have. Let's take our last break. We'll start into that then. Let's talk about the honors, I guess, is where we'll start. Okay. Yeah, it's just the idea that everybody struggled with the idea of the idea of, of the word becoming flesh. So this is, you know, John 1.14 is that the word became flesh and we have beheld his glory.

And you have all of these scriptures. And John begins that way. And the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. The Word was God. And, you know, he was with God in the beginning. And through him, everything was made. And apart from him, nothing was made that has been made.

And what happens, and what John is trying to articulate is the Creator literally stepped into his creation. Right. And wow, the word became flesh. And so I think about Philip, you know, in John 14, he's like, you know, okay, yeah, Jesus, we see you, we love you, we know you, just show us the father and that'll be enough. Then we'll finally be, you know, down on this. And he says, if you've seen me, you've seen the father. And he said, how can he even say, show me the father. You know, he's the way, he's the truth, he's a life, no one comes to the father except him. I think about John chapter 20, Thomas is, you know, is like, unless I put my hands, you know, in those holes and in his side, I'm not going to believe, and Jesus shows up and says,

have at it. And his response is, you know, my Lord and my God. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, And his, he, he understood that he was no longer holding, beholding the hands of a man, but he was beholding the hands of God. And so that's that idea behind this. Well, I was going to ask you that, how do you explain? Because it is difficult for people to wrap their head around that he's man and God. Right. It's just because we're, we're not.

Right. And so, and I thought about the verse in Philippians, too, that, you know, where he, let's it say he emptied himself and made himself nothing taking the very nature of a service. So you see why this is kind of hard to wrap your head around. I mean, here comes Jesus, and I've said this before, I was just going to get your opinion on it, where he's like, in my opinion, what separates him from every other religious leader out there to my knowledge is he said, there's a God and you're looking at him. Right. Yeah. This goes back to what Lewis was talking about.

It's like when you don't have any facts to worry about, you can make a non-Trinitarian view. But when you look, when you're honest with the text and you see Genesis 126, let us make mankind in our image, you're like, no, wait a minute, what is going on here? John made it pretty clear, John the Apostle over in 1st John 4. Dear friends, do not believe every spirit. but test the spirit to see whether they're from God. Because many false prophets have gone out into the world. They were there then and they're now here. This is how you can recognize the spirit of God.

Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. But every spirit that does not acknowledge that Jesus is not from God. So it's really not that big a rocket science. No, it's not. That's why I was asking, but it's difficult for people. It's like when they came out with the series, The Chosen, I don't know if you've seen it. Well, I loved it because they showed, you know, Jesus a little more of the humanity side of him being a human. And, well, a lot of people didn't like that.

Right. Because they're like, well, you're taking away from the deity, which I don't believe they were. I mean, as far as his character and his mission and all the different qualities that we're naming with. there, but it made me realize that people have a hard time juggling this. It's like that God became a man. Right. Exactly. And that's the number one hurdle, but I find that people coming out of Islam don't have to get through as much baggage as you have in wrapping your mind around the doctrine of the Trinity. Yeah. And the Old Testament is what, what gets them to that point.

It's like, how does Jesus refer to himself in Scripture? Does he ever refer to himself as a son of God? The answer is yes, absolutely. But how does he more often refer to himself? The son of man, a hundred and six times. He refers to himself by the Daniel 714 prophecy. And it's there before me is one like a son of man coming on the clouds of heaven. The same idea that we see in Revelation as he comes

back. He has all authority. He has all glory, which God says, I will not share my glory with another. Right. Right. And sovereign power. And all the nations, all the people's every language worshipped him. That's a one kingdom t-shirt right there. There you go. His dominion is everlasting. It'll never pass away. And his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. So when Jesus uses this phrase, every in contextually when you're standing there and he's talking to the pharisees and the sadducees the sanhedron and he drops this son of man prophecy man if he does something if he prints something for me to read and it's said 100 times yeah i'm going to go with that yeah exactly 106 so so and then now what daniel said this yeah when he's in babylon uh-huh

Which would be what country now? One of the Middle East countries, right? Which I find interesting as well. He was in captivity. Modern-day Iraq, I think. And so, think about that. I mean, like, that prophecy was uttered in the very place of the people you're talking to. It's crazy.

I mean, that's pretty crazy. It is. You look at now full circle after 2,000 years. Yeah. Which is pretty amazing. So, yeah. So getting into this hands thing, I thought, you know, when I, when I, when I, when, I read this book by Dr. Bowman, and I was like, man, this is exactly what I need.

And I called and or visited with him. And he said, man, I'd never really made that correlation. But so, I mean, you know, we got honors. We got attributes. We got names. We got deeds. We got seat. And it's just a quick thing to be able to look at your hand and peel that off.

And so when we talk about bearing a witness in this world, why do you, why do you, why do you have this, why do you have this faith? This is a great exercise. I use it all the time, you know, just in preaching or teaching or whatever. And it just comes out after you do it a few times. It's just like, this is the gospel that I'm doing. And so what does it mean that we'll just start with honors? And so one of my favorite verses, when it talks about Jesus,

shares the honors that are only due to God as John 5, verses 21 through 23, Jesus is standing toe to toe with these Pharisees. And they're like, dude, don't you know you're claiming to be God? You're going to be judged by God. And he's like, I don't think you really understand who you're talking to. And he said, by the way, the father judges nobody. All judgment has been given to the son. And here's this little phrase, so that. Anytime you want to see the sovereignty of God in action. Every time you see a so that, you need to stop. God did this so that man is shoved in a corner and made to choose. All of scripture is built and designed to do one thing is to shove you in a corner and make you choose. This is Numbers 21. This is the snake on the

pole. This is John 314. And so... And really goes back to the garden from the very beginning. Right. The idea was choice. Exactly. You know, and one simple thing that has now been played out over all of human history. And this is what we're talking about. This is the hand of God. It's in the word. It's in everything that Jesus did was for, you know, fulfilling all of this prophecy. So hang on. Hang on, Larry. So we're out of time for this segment of the podcast. They went fast. Yeah, we didn't even get started. I know. That's good. That's good, though. We got. We have bonus time. And we have bonus time. So we're going to go to overtime. And that's blazedtv.com slash unashamed. if you want to continue in our discussion.

And we're also going to have very back on the next podcast too. We've got a lot of good stuff going on. So we'll see you in overtime. Thanks for listening to The Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click that little bell to get notified about new episodes. And for even more content that you won't get anywhere else,

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