Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 509 | Jase Explains That Women Are Not Household Appliances & Zach Preaches Hope for Renewal

Episode Date: July 10, 2022

Jase tells the story of a young man asking him for advice on lasting relationships. Jase helped him to understand that women are not like household appliances, with settings that you can operate. Zach discusses hope for renewal and how some need spiritual milk as they move beyond the first superficial level. And Phil dives into a discussion on the purpose of the book of Hebrews. Watch the Unashamed overtime show, only on BlazeTV: https://BlazeTV.com/Unashamed - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? And it says they were to last until the time of the new order, meaning the way you're going to go about, approach your worship. What is the new order? You're in a place of rest, but you're too dumb to know it. You're still thinking it depends on your work. You're in a place of rest.

I think I read that in my commentary for sure. I agree with that. I agree with that. Somebody says you don't understand. Where is that? But you just don't understand. What is that? I think that's where we're at now.

Five, where he said, you don't understand. You're too dumb to know. Yeah, he says, by this time you ought to be teachers, but you need milk. Which is funny because we slow the line. Yeah. Yeah. When we got in here this morning, Phil said something about the boy, it was meaty, which is actually perfect segue in the Hebrews 5.11, about getting on to the meat and off of the milk.

Yeah, I mean, which was good because, Dad, you took our conversation yesterday or in the last podcast as being a meaty approach. But that's kind of the whole point of the Hebrew writer. He's like, you need a little more meat. Yeah. It needs to be a little deeper, which is kind of what we're going to go into today. You know, by the time we get out of this phase, we're getting in the next one. You know, copies, the first, the old order was, you know, the priest and the sacrifices and all that. Time up to the new.

It was then for the, like the Hebrews 928, 923, it was. was necessary then for the copies of the heavenly thing to be purified by these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. When Jesus came, for Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary, that he's trying to get them to see that it all comes down to a person. You know what I'm saying? No, exactly. Because they still had it without the person.

They're still, you know, practicing. Trying to stay into the system of... Yeah. Everything they had known. Yeah. Which becomes the whole point. Which think about it from what you've seen in modern day Christianity, Al. I mean, these people are told we're moving past this.

They're like, do what? After 1,500 years, I mean, you know, I mean, for a couple of thousand years, ever since Jesus showed up, a new order has shown up here, Their whole way of worship is different. I mean, it would have been a, you see all these legalistic churches now. It would have been a bone to be chewed to get them to say, no, no, there's no special days anymore, and there's no regulations. No. Or people in between.

People in between. And these sacrifices thinking somehow that's going to make you look better before God, no, you need a savior. I mean, the Hebrew writer is plain about that. Well, it's a, so. But to put to get it to the, this denominational type system that we've got now, thousands of different, different rules and different regulations, and people gather up around this one and around that one around the other one. I mean, he's trying to bring everybody together on the one head, even Christ,

but I mean, it's up, it's, it's like pulling teeth, that. You've been around, you've met with different groups and this and that and other. And some of them got some, okay. It's got it on straight and some of them not. So that's the world we live in. But I think maybe the Hebrew argument is the best one. Yeah, I think it is. I love you.

You mentioned the word copy. Because you go back and look at, you know, you divide the book of Hebrews up in the sections, just to kind of recap where we have been. You know, you got chapter one and two, which is, you know, the warning. There's an elevation of Christ. Christ is better than the angels. He's better than the Torah. And then if you look at each section, he also has a warning.

Don't go down this route. Chapter 3 and 4, the person that Jesus is better than Moses. He's better than the promised land. And then there's a warning. Plus he's saying, all this is better, the Hebrew writer, in Christ, the fullness of everything is made made known. But y'all are still trying to drag all your people. passed regulations and rules into a system that's based on grace and mercy and rest.

I mean, you see the difficulty of that. They're like it's too good to be too. I mean, if I don't have to work my way to heaven, I mean, how's that going? They just are being slow to understand that Jesus sobbed all that. that through simple trust and faith in him and your lifestyle that follows. It's just, it's so easy and so simple that it's, what's the word? It's profound. Yeah.

And there is a consistent warning throughout the whole book of Hebrews. I think it would be a mistake for us to read, you know, read the book any other way. I mean, there is, it is a warning. The whole book is a warning to anyone who would take the copy and worship the copy. instead of the original, the real thing. And all of these shadows or copies or like, you know, you've got the angels and the tour, then you got Moses and the Promised Land, then you got the priest. All these animal sacrifices, they still want to hold on.

That's eight, eight and ten, as eight through ten is the sacrifices in the covenant, Jesus is better. And then he ends with a hope for renewal in 11 through 13, a hope for renewal that's coming in the future. and it's partly already here. So then when you get into Hebrew is five, that's why I think he's moving. And then six is where it kind of gets a little hairy

because we start talking about, you know, that dreaded verse that everybody hates to read. And what does it mean? What should we get into a little bit? But I enjoy reading it. If you go 416, let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence. He's trying to tell him this is all through a person, Jesus. so that you may receive mercy and listen to it and find grace to help us in our time and eat.

It's like grace itself is difficult to find. I mean, in the transformation from a law of works and a system of grace, oh, they are miles and miles apart. I mean, Zach, you should what I'm saying? Well, the irony to me is that, and I've mentioned this before, what's interesting about the study of Hebrews is that all throughout the Old Testament, there was a warning and challenge about looking back, not trusting God in deliverance. Because, I mean, we talked about Lot's wife.

We talked about all the ones that were in the desert after they'd come out of Egypt. You go into all of the prophets. You see the same thing. God would offer a path of deliverance and say you have to trust in me. Even under the system of the old covenant and old works, faith in him was still the way out. That's why Abraham became the father of the faithful because he didn't turn back. And it did call for much grace on God's part as he's leading these people

and they're going wandering over here, over there. They're going this and that and other. Like Aaron, the first thing he does, create this idol, like everybody bowing down to it. They went back. I mean, the idea was God was giving them something new, and they went back to the old ways of Egypt. And he didn't like it at all. So I think that sets it up when we get to this section, Zach, and when you get to 5-11,

because he's just introduced this thought about the Jesus being the high priest and how he's greater, and now he's going to give the warning that you mentioned, that he's mentioned every step of the way. But I think it goes back to how he started the whole letter. He's like, you know, in the past, God, he spoke to our four, fathers because they're kind of trying to go back to the past the very forefathers that he's addressing. But when he says, but in these last days, which implies not only is this the word, because, you know, this is the final word, right? And there's not going to be any other. No. So when you kind of step back and think about that, there's an ultimatum here.

Yep. Which made me realize it's like, it's kind of like, you. you know, we use this illustration about marriage. Well, you know, when you get married, I think most people that are, when you're immature, which, you know, I was, you think, well, this is going to work out if you do everything I say. Well, that's not marrying a person. That's marrying an appliance. You know?

It's marrying a regulation. But I think we do the same thing with God. It's like, well, you know, let's just put him on the shelf. And, and, but when you, when you realize the final word means there's some things that he's going to say that reflects the character of God that you're not going to like. Right. And a lot of these things he's saying here, they're not liking. But I think that's what a relationship is all about, which is ultimately what he was introducing. Right.

But so, you know, I think that's the struggle in all this. It's, you know, just like a relationship. A relationship's deeper. And I think that's the, what they're settling for a very superficial, not even a relationship, a superficial interaction with the living God. Because it's weird when he gets to 11, it's like we've been talking about these weighty things like this guy, Mount Kesidac and this new priesthood. And it's rather complicated.

And then he, and very kind of heady and theological. And then you move into verse 11, and it's like he flips the switch. And he says, concerning him, who, Jesus and how he relates to Mokazadegh. We have much to say. And he recognizes it's hard to explain. And then he says, why, since you have become dull of hearing. And then he moves into like this new conversation about spiritual maturity. And it's like, how is that linked up with what we've been talking about?

And I think what it is is because he talks about at the end of he, let me just read it. He said, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God. And you have come to need milk and not solid food. You're just a baby, is what he's saying. For everyone who partakes only of milk, this is how you know. They're not accustomed to the word of righteousness. I think the NIV says the teachings about righteousness, for he is an infant. he's a baby.

But solid food is for the mature who, because of practice, these are your liturgical habits, they have their senses trained to discern good from evil. So what does that have to do with Malkesedek and all of these deeper matters? I think the point is if you worship the copies, you're never going to move on to real spiritual maturity because you're not really investing in a relationship. You're not, your senses are dulled because you're going for the most superficial form. And that's why he's calling us to something more, something deeper, something that's real, you know? Yeah, well, that's what, to use my illustration about the appliance, appliance doesn't say, hey, Jase, you're wrong.

Or I disagree with this. Or this is not going to work. That's why I said when Jesus is the final word, and you start reading these passages about, He's looking into my heart and seeing my motives and my attitudes. Well, this takes on a whole new, you know, religion that I didn't sign up for. I mean, all of a sudden it's getting uncomfortable and it's getting personal. And we're talking about my whole life and how I operate and why I do what I do. And so that's a lot different than going through a ceremony or a ritual.

trying to, you know, make my mistakes right. I mean... Just participating in the ritual is good enough. Yeah, and then you could go out. You could kind of fake that, really. You know what I mean? You followed all the instructions. It looks religious.

It smells religious. Yeah. But then you kind of go off and do what you want to inside on your normal life. And I think that's the big contrast here. Well, I call this section. in my notes, the depth charge, because it's basically a charge about how deep are you willing to go. And, Zach, you mentioned from your sermon from Matthew 13 talking about the kingdom last time. I went back and I was looking at that.

And when you look at the parable of the sower, you know, there were basically three out of the four soil situations were not good. only one produced righteousness, which is to Zach's point he read a minute ago. But the reason why is they had no depth. You know, one, they just got snatched up right off the bat. Side of the road. It's out of the road. One, they had a little bit of root system, but not enough. The next one, stuff grew up around them and chokes them out.

So the idea is three out of four of the parable, the sower illustrations, don't have depth. Therefore, they don't stay on the test of time. So I couldn't help but think about that when I thought about this context because that's kind of what he's talking about. Let's take our first break. Is the idea that without depth, you can't determine good from evil is what he actually says in the Hebrew context. So you need that. I was thinking about the depth charge, you know, you see those submarine, you know, movies. And if you're just running along, they're pretty shallow, they would dump out those depth charges out of the back of that, you know, ship above you and just blow you to smithereens.

So what do you do? You got to go deep to survive the barrage. And I think you could make the same illustration, you know, from a spiritual perspective. You got to have depth to understand righteousness. I don't disagree. I mean, because I think, you know, if you, meanwhile, if you stay shallow, you're probably participating in sinful activity. And the more you do, you know, I remember you think back to any sin you commit.

Well, the first time you do it, you're like, you feel guilty. It was wrong, but the more you do things, you start losing sensitivity, and there's a lot in the word about that. All of a sudden, you develop a pattern. It's a pattern, and your heart becomes hard. I mean, it all started from being shallow, but then after a while, you're calling wrong, right, because you've justified it for so long. I think there's a lot of things working simultaneously. it's not like you you know meanwhile while you're staying shallow you're you're probably participating in things you shouldn't because it it is shallow but in this case the shallow water

is the introduction to jesus i think they had missed that it's like it's kind of like you say oh well i got that i need you know let's move on you haven't produced a crop yet the first three. There's no crop that's produced because the first one, you know, fall on the side of the road, the birds eat it up, it's gone. Yeah. And you look at the next one, it's the weeds choke it out and then on it. So, so there's no crop. Well, right. Well, I guess my point is, though, they were not

given Jesus the due respect and focus that they should be. And it's one, when we were in chapter two, I remember looking at this, it just popped into my head though. But when he said, I was looking at it. I was looking at at the Greek phrase when it says, we must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard so that we don't drift away. But that pay more careful attention, you know, and they were, I was looking at the definition of that phrase. And it was like obsessed. It was, it was more like a,

you know, obsession with what drew you into this. Well, he's talking about Jesus because he says, for the message spoken by angels was binding. So I guess you're making a case here of what happened at Sinai under the law. And every violation disobedience received is just punishment. How shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? So then it gets into the Lord. What I'm saying is if you hear that and say, okay, and then move on, move on to what, which I think is setting the foundation from what we're going to talk about in Hebrew 6.

Once you move away from Jesus, that's the most dangerous thing to move away from on the planet. Yeah. And I think that's his point. It's like, no, you hear, you're introduced to Jesus, you surrender to Jesus, but then you become obsessed with realizing what that means. Because it's ultimately the communication of God. I mean, that's why he started this and why he's referred to as the word. You want to know the character of God. You become obsessed with Jesus on a daily basis.

Yep. It's a good point, Jay. Yeah, I think that's a good point. I think when you get into Hebrews 6, you have to refer back to this part that we're discussing right now. Because what we're talking about is milk. We're talking about kind of the superficial part of just the first level. We talked about the parable of the parable. the sower and the four seeds and all that that we were talking about that were thrown on the

roads, what we were just discussing. But he says here that the milk is the elementary principles. So he says, you got to, you got, you need the elementary principles because you're still, like, y'all just getting the milk. But there's more beyond the elementary stuff because we know that because when he gets to Hebrew 6, he defines what the elementary teachings are. He says, we need to leave. those, not leave them behind, like forget them, but we got to think what he's saying is we need to move beyond just the elementary teachings about Christ. Let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and faith towards God of instructions about baptism or washing. I think your translation says baptism and the laying on of hands and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so.

Like that's foundational stuff. Like we, how many times have we seen people come in, they come to Jesus. We've, we've seen them baptized. We've watched that initial, you know, they ride high for about six months. And then you turn around and, and they're gone. Right. And you never to be, never to be seen again. Many times.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a real. Well, I like the, the, if you follow the illustration that he starts with, Zad, when you, before you get to those things you mentioned. It makes sense that you, you're talking about your health. In other words, I mean, you have a baby at home, Zach, and Jason Missy do too. And it's natural for them to take milk in the early stages because that's what gets them to a point to be ready then to grow into a child.

And there comes a point in time where milk no longer provides growth and provides health. I mean, it served its purpose, but now you've got to have the meat. That's why he views the scriptures, his words, the writer of Hebrew, that the scriptures is shown to be food, spiritual food. Right. You know, those who have, you know, obey the scriptures, you know, that's feasting on solid food. It's further mature.

They know the difference between good and evil. And we've seen a lot if you don't make a, if you don't finally make a, make a clean cut there, you'll have really troubles following Jesus. Well, almost every writer uses this illustration. You're right, Dad. And Peter, you see it in several Paul's writing. The idea is this is your spiritual food. So you have to have that to have growth.

And so you're right, Zach. It's not leaving it in the sense that those don't matter anymore. It's just that that's the early foundation. Yep. Yeah, I just look at it. I see while we go in two different directions after this. though. Because see, my view is

that he's listing all these things as fundamental teachings about Christ, but if you try to separate them from Jesus, then just think about if you talk about all these things,

repentance, faith, baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection, eternal judgment, but you minimize Jesus. in these discussions. Yep. Well, all of a sudden, what's the point?

Right. And so then when he transitions and goes in it, he starts talking about those who have participated using Jesus as the focus in all these things, which I would argue is maturity. It's not just the issues. It's the issues as it points back to Jesus, and your participation in that, which I go back to that Christ is in you. I mean, there's one thing to learn about Jesus. There's another thing to be obsessed with him to the point where you've sold out and surrendered.

And then he is then living in you. So you're, this is an obsessive 24-7 thought process, attitude process, and lifestyle of being like Jesus. So which ultimately gets to the point of, well, if you turn your back on that, on Jesus, and the participation in it, you're not coming back because that is the way back. You've burned the bridge, which is Jesus. He's saying sometimes human beings,

it happens a lot, they zero in on what I can do instead of what he's already done. Well, in all these issues too. You can say, well, I've been baptized. Here's what's going to happen at the resurrection. Well, once you were in me, Jesus, the filter of Jesus in all these processes, what is it?

You could be right on them. You could tell what's going to happen. There's a resurrection. And you could share with how to repent and change your life and the differences. I mean, there's a, this is happening in our world today. My whole point is, once you remove Jesus as the reason, the focus, the obsession, I don't know how else you want to put it. There's no place to come back to because that was the place.

It's a situation, which is what he's wanting them of. It's a critical point. I mean, he keeps out, I don't want you to drift away. Drift away from what? The person of Jesus, which is my whole point, which is how this thing got started. So I think there was a lack of understanding from their part on, on the person. really, uh,

that went back to what we read in John when he said it, he came to those, uh, what's it saying John? Uh, he came to those, basically referring to the Jewish nation. And it says yet,

but they didn't understand it. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I think that's the same problem here. He's trying to get them to understand that this whole process, the, of your forefathers,

and the prophets. Jesus is way above that. I mean, and you see examples in the Gospels of this. You remember when he was telling his disciples? I forgot what they were talking about, but they were talking about, I think he was talking about casting out demons, and he was going to give them authority,

which under this heading would be, you know, laying on of hand. Jesus lays his hands on those disciples. I mean, what a power. But then they're having this conversation, and I think it's Matthew 10. And then all of a sudden he drops this bomb to them, to them, he says, it's one of my favorite verses in the Bible, he says, hey, I saw Satan fall from

heaven like lightning. Well, that's the difference in Jesus and all these other people. All of a sudden, he's going back before the creation of the planet, saying, look, I saw that. And then he's like, don't be excited that you have this power, but you get your job. joy from your name being written in the book of life. And so I'm just using that as an example. It's like we could sit around and talk about like what they were doing about laying on of hands and this this awesome power and, you know, what's going on. But all of a sudden you realize that Jesus is so much more superior than any of these

other prophets or, you know, people or even the shadow of what's happening. I mean, this is so beyond. You can have this relationship with a person, but there is some finality to it, which means your life has got to change. There's a big changes that's going to happen. John was watching. Hang on, Dad. Let's take a break. John was watching, observing his own people, the Jews.

And when that John won that you started with there, he came to that which was his own. But his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, children born not of natural descent, nor of a human decision or a husband, a husband's will, but born of God. And somewhere in that, that's where it started, because you got to remember, Jase, the vast majority of the Jewish people that he came to, they were. rejected him outright and said kill him kill him get rid of him so it it starts off with a law it you're going

to have to really have the capability of changing your mind as a Jew about this person Jesus well John's kind of explains it by the time you get to the book of Hebrews he just showing you the well I guess what I'm a ramifications of their initial get rid of him well I guess what I agree with you what I was trying to clarify is, it seems like, and maybe y'all can just be clear, because it seems like in chapter 5 in verse 12, he says, you need milk, not solid food. And then six in verse one, it says, we need to leave the elementary teachings and go on to maturity. Well, which is it? Yeah, I think he's, I think it's both.

I think that's the tension. He said you need to get past the milk, but you're not even, like, you haven't even really fully gotten the milk yet. Like, you're still a baby. And you, but you need to move on towards maturity and towards solid food. But when I read this verse, and I think a lot of people in our audience, when they read this verse, if they pull out their Bible, and you read Hebrews chapter six, just the first eight verses. I don't, I mean, when I read that as an infant in Christ, and I did, I read it, I read it, like, as soon as me and Jeff, we talked about this on the last podcast, right after the blonde hair incident, and we came to saving faith. I read this verse about falling away, and it scared me to death. Kind of like the verse about in Matthew 12 about to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin.

Anyone that would read this as a believer, I think that it would kind of, it's going to invoke you some type of fear like, oh, have I done that? Have I done whatever the thing is that won't allow me to come back? Like, have I gone too far? And that's a question I had for a lot of years, particularly being raised in the churches of Christ, which taught that you could lose your salvation. So you're walking with God, then you sin, and then you're out, and you're in, you're out, you're in, you're out, you're in.

And that's like one side of this discussion. And then there's another side of the discussion that says, oh, you never can lose your salvation at all, whatever. And there's this tension that kind of meets right here in Hebrews chapter six that we got to kind of deal with. Right. Well, I was just proposing, I was proposing that my view on it is, he's when i see a baby on milk i'm thinking born again because he makes that reference

when you're when you surrender to jesus because you have an understanding who jesus is that's how you're called you surrender and you're it's called born again so now you need to mature so i'm saying you got jesus there but then when he moves to the next well maturity is the participation in that relationship. As you participate, now you're praying, you're studying, you're meeting with other people, you're worshiping, you're doing all these things, but you're also, Christ is in you, you are now becoming Jesus on the earth.

Well, as that continues, you start maturing. Because you're having all these conversations and interactions and you're declaring you're being an ambassador. So that was what I was proposing, because when he gets to this verse 4 through 6, all of a sudden it seems to be a participation because it says it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, which I would venture to say is the beginning of this, because you understand who Jesus is. But then it's all these action words who have tasted the heavenly gift, not just, you know, filled out, checked out the boxes on who the heavenly gift is, but have experienced. You recognize it. Yeah. Who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the coming age if they fall away to be brought back to repentance.

Because to their loss, they're crucifying the Son of God all over again and suburb. objecting him to public disgrace. So it's like an illustration of saying the impossibility of coming back to something you should have never walked away from. Right. So that was what- There's nothing that can feel the void, nothing left. So he's wanted them to mature because it's like you wouldn't fall away from, from my, viewpoint, you know, because once you experience that, you would mature. And so it's like, it's almost an illustration that wouldn't happen, but it's like, well, if it did, then there

would be nothing to come back to because you burned the bridge, which was Jesus. So I think they, if they clearly have set Jesus to the side, which from, from chapter one to five, you have to admit they have done that. He warned them over and over. He had become a small thing. Well, that can't happen. Which is why I think he said, let's take another break, which is why he used the phrase you're crucifying him all over again. When Jesus was on the earth, you had two choices to follow him, believe he was who he said he was, or crucified him. Because that's where the choices came down to. Well, what happened? They crucified it. then he comes back to life and he says, okay, you've got a choice now.

You can die with me in my death, barrel and resurrection, or you can try to do it on your own without me. I mean, to me, they were clear choices. And that's what he's saying here. Yeah. Wherever you fit into the scale, maybe you thought it was a good idea. Remember throughout Jesus' ministry, there was a lot of times they believed in him until they didn't. Well, right. So ultimately, I think that's why he used to the phrase.

And if he's the only mediator, if in your heart, you get rid of the mediator, there's no way for your sins to be mediated about. That's why it's impossible. I don't think the paragraph is talking about falling away. I think it's talking about trying to obtain salvation with Jesus not in the picture. That's it. Well, whatever that is, it ain't good. When the mediation stops for your future sins that you stumble as you go,

if you get rid of the mediator, there's no, there's no, there's no one mediator between God and men, a man Christ Jesus. But there is a warning. I mean, it is a warning. I mean, I think we've got to remember. But, Zach, I'm saying the whole thing's been a warning from chapter one through chapter five, all of a sudden we get here and start making arguments about falling away. When I'm saying the point is, you either fall away from Jesus, you know, or you don't. Or you either focus on Jesus or you don't. I mean, the whole thing. It's been about Jesus. Would you agree that it's evident this was written primarily to the Jewish people, the Jewish Christians?

Sure was. About it exactly. I think so. Yeah, I would. Yeah. Yeah, that's all I'm saying. I'm saying, I mean, I'm not saying, obviously the whole thing's been about drifting away, you know, from Jesus. So he said it over and over and over and over.

But here I just think it was an illustration to get them to see, you can't go back to some system. without Jesus. He has spoken. This is the plan. I'm sorry you don't like it, but part of any relationship is, is you have to hear what's the truth. He is the truth. It's a person. It's not this ritualistic setting that was here under the law. It's just not there. It's gone. I mean, that's my only point. Yeah, I mean, I think the fear is that we say, oh, you're saying you can lose your salvation, that you can sin too much. No, I don't, there's not, there's not amount of sin that a believer can commit that outweighs the blood of Jesus. I mean, so it, so I would say first and foremost, when you read this as a believer, I think you need to understand this, that, that there's no amount of sin that you can commit to where God's going to say, well, that was too many.

I allow 665. That was 666. That's Mark of the Beat. That's my level. You're out. There's no levels. There's no like amount of sin. That's a very legalistic and workspace way of looking at it.

But what I do think is possible. Hang on, Dan, let's take our last break. Out of all the topics, you would think one of the things when he's saying, it's impossible for those who have been on night and have grazed and tasted the heaven to give if they share it in the event. If they fall away to be brought back to repentance, what's interesting is what shall us take on that verse 12? and he ends that little discussion up, you know, you can blow it, evidently, or it's possible to blow it. We do not want you to become lazy. Now, he's talking about spiritual laziness, but to imitate those who through faith,

you look at the ones who are not lazy and patience inherit what has been promised. So why would he pick one of the things we just don't want you to get, We don't want you to be lazy. Because I think. Because you wouldn't think that would be a hellfire offense. I mean. Because I have a little different take than Zach. Because my point is, I'm going to say this again because I think it fell on deaf ears.

You're going to work the lazy than is in there? Yeah, I am. All right. Because I think seven and eight. I was going to say you got to read that middle part. I mean, it's interesting. Because I think seven and eight is a key to understand in this illustration. And he says land that drinks in the rain, often falling on it, and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is far and receives the blessing of God.

So are we back on the one you quoted, the parable of the sewer? Same military. Well, but here's why. Because when you, what happens? A person comes to God. Why? Because he encounters Jesus. He understands Jesus.

he hears the gospel and so he then is born again well then god enters him and he becomes useful it you know think of all the verses about the field and the crop and the fruit what is all that that's a person experiencing jesus on earth he's being an ambassador and i think my whole point about this which i i can tell is not not getting across is that when he says If they fall away, I'm not focused on that. I'm, because I think he's making an illustration. I think he's focused on they're not coming, it's impossible to be brought back to repentance. Because to their loss, they're crucifying the son of God.

Well, what happened before that? All these active things, these participation in the gifts that God, provides us the Holy Spirit that once you have this Jesus encounter in this experience. So then I think he just says it again right here. It's like a field. If you have Jesus and you're drinking of that rain, which is the experience of Jesus on a daily basis, what's happening? Fruits. It's cropping up everywhere. But you take Jesus out and what kind of field do you have? Verse 8, but land that produces thorns and thistles, there's no Jesus here. There's no Jesus here. There's no experience in Jesus.

So what is their biggest problem? They have a religion without the relationship with the who God chose to communicate to the people, which is Jesus. They're trying to have these acts and this lifestyle without Jesus, which is the reason. So then you have no experience on a daily basis. You're not reading the gospel saying, well, how did Jesus, how did he respond in this? No, you're in a room somewhere offering sacrifices about something. And then going out, there's no movement. So you're basically, what he goes on to say at the end,

you've become spiritual lazy. Well, right, because there's no way to work because you don't have the reason. Are you saying, if you take Jesus out. Soil's not being tilled or fertilized. There's no rain coming in. Jesus is the rain. You see what I mean? So is your point that he's almost kind of asking that rhetorical question,

he's almost like if you if you were to do this exactly because my my I never gave my thoughts on fall I believe people from our perspective we fall away because we don't know the hearts of people and but from God's perspective I do believe that once you're in you're in because he he he's not waiting or he's not look he is his his time has stopped for him so he knows the end before the beginning I mean so I do think the You say you fell away from your initial love, your initial, I mean, if you look at the first three verses, it's obvious they understood it at some point. Well, right.

And now they don't. He kept saying, I mean, he said over and over, don't drift away. Because from our perspective, yes, you know, from God's perspective, no, I think that answers all the problems. But my point is that's not what it's about. It's not what it's about. He's trying to get them. He's trying to get them to see that if you don't have Jesus here, these are the consequences of that.

I mean, you just look at you can have all these teachings, but they have no understanding, you have no participation. Your life is just, it's a lazy, there's no fruit results. You've missed it. There's no crop. But once you've done all this, and that's why he said, if they fall away, they're not coming back. I mean, to me, because you're crucifying the son of God all over, that's why I'm saying, I think it's an illustration.

Now, what if that does happen? If that's literal, they're not coming back. What would you come back to? Well, you can't come back without Jesus. That's the point. So it's more, either way you take it, I'm saying I think his, I mean, I'm trying to get his point, which I think the following verses,

is putting a lot of emphasis on what they're missing out, looking at the ritualistic of the Jewish heritage, they're missing out on helping people on a daily basis and God using them to go, like Jesus, look at the Gospels, look at what Jesus did, and look at what they're doing. Is it the same? No.

Jesus was out with people. He was, I mean, it's a totally different system them. I mean, I hate to call it a lifestyle. It's a different lifestyle to what God called them. I mean, that's my, that's my thought on it. Yeah, let me say this real quick. It's pretty solid. Yeah, because I've read this before. I know we've got to end here and go to overtime, but because I've read this and been tormented by it. And so I do want to just reiterate, like this does end. I mean, there is a warning here. However, and I see your point, Jace, and I think you make some good points. But just,

For hope, you know, read the rest of this, verse 9 on. It does say, we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end so that you would not be sluggish or lazy, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. So I think that what I'm interested in is how do we, and we didn't unpack this a lot today, but I'm interested in what does it mean to have the full assurance of hope. And so don't misinterpret. I mean,

I think there's a lot more nuance to this discussion. Don't misinterpret any of this is that you can't be sure. I think he can be fully assured of your salvation. I agree with that. We're out of time. But yeah, let's talk about that a little bit more because I was going to get to that point before you get to 12 about that.

Because he almost like he comes back and says, no, look, don't misunderstand. So let's flesh that out a little bit more in our overtime before we move on from this context. Thanks for listening to The Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click that little bell to get notified about new episodes. And for even more content that you won't get anywhere else, subscribe to Blaze TV at blazed.com slash Unashamed.