Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 543 | Phil Takes On What People Get Wrong About Marriage & Jase & Missy's Personality Differences

Episode Date: September 7, 2022

Phil and Zach discuss the importance of attending a local church and how "church shopping" is holding you back from God loving you through his people. Phil looks at the consumerism models in modern churches and reminds people that they are really just clusters of imperfect people. Jase tells a story about a man who tried to help a homeless person with a terrible deal. Phil says that people have the wrong idea about marriage these days, and Jase laughs about the personality differences between himself and Missy. Watch the Unashamed overtime show, only on BlazeTV: https://BlazeTV.com/Unashamed - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Well, welcome to another unashamed. I was really, we've got this started off of the positive because I really was wondering if Zach was still alive. And then he just popped up. But he was about 15 minutes late. And so, and he wasn't prepared. He didn't have his earphones. He didn't have his mic.

But all that didn't matter because I thought, you're alive. He's alive. You're here. So what's what he, you know, he gets hidden every once in a while for, you know, a week or two, but then all of a sudden he's back. No phone. No way to reach. Job. Well, what's his way they call it?

What's his? I have no idea. He's an international. He's an international man of mystery. That is the question. I get asked that a lot. Well, for me, this is like my therapy, you know. I do have a job.

did I have to go to work. I mean, one day flying along and enjoying each other's company, we had spoken somewhere. All I said was, Is that better? To Zach and Al, we need to get on that blooming internet. I said, because they can reach people,

and that's all I said. Well, the next thing I know, they all took off like the shirt tails on fire, and I mean, they pulled it off. We're on the internet. Well, here we sit, Jason. Now what we're going to do, because our man, they come and they're gone.

They come a little bit and they're gone. You see Zach, then you don't see him for a month. I don't know what all is involved in that. He's a man on the move. He just appears. That's what's so fascinating about the worldwide, well, this is not the worldwide well, what is it? This is just intercontinental connections.

People just show up on the World Wide Web. We're on RSS feeds, all the, but you guys make me sound kind of shady. I'm not up to anything nefarious, I promise you. He's just, he's working. He's working on future things. Zach is a man who looks ahead. He's running in a circle that I've never, after 76 years, I've never entered the circle Zach is actually traveling in.

It's men on the move and they're back behind the shadows. Well, I'll tell you this, if you were into Shady, I mean, I'll give you the topics that we're. going to address Hebrews 13 via the Holy Spirit. Entertaining strangers, possible angel encounters, prisons, marriage beds, money, and leadership. So if there's anything shady going on, it's coming out right here, right now, today. Stay tuned, y'all. That's what you call clickbait right there.

Let me tell you some irony in which I find. you know, I kind of chuckled is where else in the world or in a book, can you go from strangers to angels to prisons to the marriage bed in about four sentences? And a list that's about that long on the kind of men, you need to say, we want you to be an elder in the church, the kingdom of God that's going to reach all over. the world. Yeah, yeah. And I'm saying in Hebrews, yeah, he brings up leaders, but there are qualifications.

Yeah. You were telling a funny story about that a guy that they didn't have pastors or elders in their church, Phil read that list and Titus I don't know anybody like that here. Yeah. We don't have those. That's why we don't have any leaders. That's why we don't have any. So I'm not sure what needs to be done, but I'm pretty sure a meeting needs to happen.

Well, the problem is with that is it's like everything else we talk about on the podcast. When you try to, you know, make it a quantitative thing where it's just like a list or a law, those are qualities of a person's character. And so that's what you're talking about. Of course, nobody's perfect. There's only one perfect. But a lot of churches get stymie like that because they don't have any leadership because they're going, well, there's nobody that checks off every one of those things. imperfection you're never going to have you know why there's less people married today and you know

i think it i don't know the the exact stats i could look them up but i remember it's at one stage i remember 75% was married and then i remember it being like 50 something and now it's below 50% but the reason that is is because i think people are looking for the perfect match i mean especially these uh internet type thing find the perfect soulmate well guess what yeah that ain't going to happen because no one's perfect so no wonder they're just like no yeah oh they're exactly right because because it's marriage is hard it's i mean it's work i mean you talk about it a lot with you and missy i mean y'all y'all had not much in common except for your faith and but you know obviously it's worked out well what you have to work it's the

list it mentions uh in lieu of you know you read like you know, where we are in the book of Hebrews, but elders in the church whose overseers, they're looking over the people of God, his kingdom, but blameless is mentioned twice in Titus 1, where a list is given. By the way, when you get these men, the Apostle Paul was talking to Titus,

he said, they need to be blameless. Well, you know, three or four statements later, he said, you know, they need to be blameless. So how do you run up on blameless? nameless individuals in a sin-cursed world, Al. You're an elder. Well, I am, as are you. No, it's, I think you're talking about reputation. The way the Hebrew writer puts it in verse seven, he says, remember your leaders who spoke

the word of God to you, consider the outcome of their way of life. I noticed that. And imitate their faith. So, you know, that's kind of a, so when you're talking about blameless, you're talking about a guy that has a good reputation. I mean, people, you know, they know he's not shady. And we were joking about that earlier, but it's they have the reputation that they love the Lord and their way of life. All you got to do is observe them. And you'll know, you know, in marriage and leadership, if we're all flawed, which we are in both cases, well, how you

respond to that is ultimately how you're viewed as blameless. I mean, people make mistakes you there's there's ways of handling that and so i mean if you just try to hide it if that's your fur or lie about it and then try to hide it in marriage or in leadership that's going to lead to not being viewed as blameless yeah i mean it's kind of an irony there you know if you yeah marriage and marriage is a great test of in a way a man runs his family as you know how What kind of leader is he going to be in the church? I mean, because it's tough when you're in a family and you're trying to raise kids. You know, I've got five.

And, you know, we just got Layla out of the house at 18. And I think that was successful. But, you know, you always cross your fingers. We just got her out of the house. But she's not off the payroll. Can she come back, Zach? Can she come back? Yeah, I'll let her come back during Christmas and break.

And, you know, it's like. You want to raise them up to be godly people. And I think that's when you look at this qualifications for elder. I think it's interesting. Well, you kind of like that old guy on the tombstone. Well, bye. Look, my father-in-law, this is one thing. You know, we had the, I've shared this before, we had the little mishap on the,

the blessing, you know, at your missy's like, you got to ask my dad's blessing for the marriage, which was turned out to be a. terrible idea. Was it a little awkward? No, it wasn't awkward. He said, no. I'm not giving you the blessing. We didn't have a plan B.

The justice of peace. Oh, that's not good. Just at peace. You know, he's the guy, you know, who marries us around here? We took off to Oklahoma because you don't have to be with 18. He'd marry. So we go up there, me and your mother. And all he said was, you want her?

I said, yeah. He said, sign out here. Give me $15. I mean, it was short and quick. The statement was, do you want her was the actual set? Did he ask her if she wanted you? It's kind of a two-way street. Well, yeah, I think there was, it was some sad times back there.

The shorter wedding ceremonies I've ever witnessed. When was this back in the 30s or 40s? Oh, this was back way back, 50s. This was in the 60s. Oh, yeah. I was just kidding. But 60s were, the 1960s were. turbulent time. You tell me about it. So what I was going to say was, I didn't have the qualification

for elders at that point in my life. But what I was going to say is then fast forward a couple months, because we never really got that resolved with the blessing. But then he did say, because I think he thought, well, this is inevitable. They're going to be married without the blessing or with it, which was true. And so then he tells. Missy, I hope he doesn't get mad about this. I think the statute of limitations have run out. But I remember him saying something along the lines. Now, if you marry her, she can't come back here.

And I just paused and thought, what did he just say? If I marry her, she can't come back here. So I thought, okay. But it was a. I said, injured it made me think that when Zach said that about, okay, you're on your own now. You can't come back. You know, but you don't say that because they do come back. But in the marriage, I think he was saying, you know, if y'all have some problems, work it out.

His underlying tone was, don't send her back here if you're marrying her. Yeah, this is it. Well, they told me, I just heard a little scuttled butt through the last, you know, 20 years, it gets worse if we go. but they basically said a lot of young people now who are living with their parents when they turn 18 they don't leave they go back in the bed. Oh, I've had those conversations with young men. It's called failure to launch, failure to launch. Yeah. They've been in their 20s and nobody else would man up and do this.

And I said, I'll do it because we were having a discussion about a guy in his, the last, one I did was a guy in his late 20s that was living in the basement of his parents' house. And if you're in that position now, look, we love you, but it's time to move out. This is the way this works. Time to go. And so he was like, well, what biblical evidence. He tried to argue from. Biblically, he didn't have to go.

And I started to go down that road and I just said, look, if you're going to try to argue this, there's a deeper, there's a deeper problem. You know, you need to be a leader. It's time to move. I'm not going to have that argument with you. I'm just telling you as a man who loves you and wants you to, you know, have some direction, be a leader. It's time to move out. Do you move? Do you move, Ted?

Did it happen? Nope. I was hoping for like a great ending. Yeah. And that was married before he is. I'm not laughing because I'm happy. But I don't know what else I can do, you know? I mean.

Yeah. Well, no, it didn't have a happy ending. But that's the thing about it. And dad, you were talking about that. That's why elder means older. you know, there has to be some track record. Overseer out. Overseer.

Yeah. You know, that's not, and young people are immature. You know, it takes them a while to be seasoned and to learn things and to be disciples. And so that's why the Bible talks about the text you refer to in Titus. Elder means older. I mean, that's who you need to look to. Most it is.

Well, it's interesting. He said he must not be a recent convert. Otherwise, well, look, I want to clarify this. I'm not an elder. I'm not a pastor because you have to use more, what is the word? More, yeah, diplomacy and you're in these situations. But I'm just a guy. You know, I'm a believer.

And so I think to me, I mean, I didn't really care about the ramifications. I was just blunt about it. And that's why I didn't want to have an argument about it. and I was not very diplomatic, and maybe I should have been. But I will say this, I thought about Phil, because before we jump ahead, this is kind of a funny thing that happened to me. When I was researching. Hang on, Jay. Let's take a break.

When I was researching to back up to where we are in verse 2, I mean, I want a verse 1 of chapter 13, when it said, you know, be careful when you, or it doesn't say be careful, but what does it? It's a don't forget to entertain strangers. Yeah, for by doing so, some people have entertained angels without knowing. So I was trying to do some research and listen to people who talked about that. Just to see if I could find anything interesting, which I didn't. But I tried.

But there was one guy I heard speaking. And now he, he really had, it made me think of Phil. Because he's a pastor at a church, and they live in a, somewhere in California. but it's a high homeless area. And there's a lot of people on the street. And, of course, the next verse, you know, talks about remember those in prison. And he's like, you know, it's kind of ironic when you think about entertaining strangers and then it brings up prison because there's a danger to entertaining stranger.

And we talked about that on the last podcast. But his point was, I thought I'd share this. So the guy says, well, here's what I do. He said, I'll give these strangers. one, two, five dollars sometimes. And, oh, man, let me turn my ringer off. I hit my ringer on. Gee, it was.

Just bedlam. You wonder why I don't carry us out on. So he was saying, look, because in their lay of the land, this is, most people don't, when they think of strangers, he was saying, you know, we're thinking about all these people, you're passing by every day. and you feel guilty for not helping. He's like, I help him. He said, but we also, he said,

I don't want to be contributing to the destruction of their lives. I don't want to give them $5. And then they go do something horrific with it or, you know, get drunk or use that as a money pool to. Fair point. Yeah, it's fair point. So here's why I thought of you feel, because here's a guy who's a pastor at this church. He said, so here's what I do. He said, I've never shared this before, and I'm a little nervous about it, but I'm going to share it with him.

So he said, what I do is when they say, you know, you got a buck or two, he's like, yeah. He said, but I want to pray for you first. So you're first thinking, oh, well, because he said, they all say, okay. He said, but then I clarify. He said, I'm going to pray bluntly. I'm going to pray with passion about your situation. Are you fine with that? They're like, okay.

He said, so then I start the prayer, and it goes something like this. It goes, I pray, Lord, that this individual will use this money for something good and for something good only. And he said, I usually list a few things that may be good, you know, or needed. He said, however, Lord, I pray that if he does not use this for something good, if he uses this to get drunk or uses it on drugs, or he said, I name the obvious sins. I pray that you will bring a curse on him where he will never be able to have another dollar to be used. And he said, in Jesus name, amen. Of course, the crowd laughed.

I thought about you in that moment, Phil, because I thought, here's a man wrestling with wanting to entertain strangers and be hospitable. But he's also wanting to say, Now, wait a minute here. I don't want to contribute to that. So I'm doing that in a form of a prayer. So I thought you would think that was funny. Yeah, yeah. I've been there many, many, many times.

But he was serious. I mean, he seriously does that. No, and then here's what he said. He says, so sometimes, so after the prayer, I say, amen. I say, do you still want the money? He said, there's been some that say, nope, nope. And he thought, okay. He said, but most say, yeah.

Yeah. The question is, do they really believe they'll be cursed? Some of them say, yep, I know what I'm going to do. And I don't want to take a curse. I did think it was interesting. It does show you that even people that you think are not that intelligent or maybe are mentally ill, they have a conscience that some of them in that moment say, I'm not going to commit to that.

I mean, they had a moment of honesty, which I thought was interesting, which showed you they were going to use it for destructive measures and not for basic needs of humanity. I just thought I'd get your comments. Many, many, many, many, many times. The little money changes hands,

but nothing changes. Every once in a while, It works out for their good, but it's really up to them to make the choice to live by faith or not live by faith throughout the book of Hebrews, you know. You know, unless you combine what you say with faith and it's demonstrated in the way you roll, unless that comes along and you can't make somebody do this, Jace. It has to be from the heart, their heart. He does leap from strangers to people in prison. Now look, I've always believed y'all are the experts, not me, but I've always believed this was believers that were in prison.

Yeah, like persecution. That's what I thought, but there's a lot of the religious world, they just believe that there's a lot of prison ministries based on this verse. Yep. And look, I'm all four, you know, you have a captive audience. I mean, I get it. So, I mean, I, we've all, I mean, I did a prison ministry. You know, all of us have spoken in several prisons, you know, so we, we understand that sometimes people, when their lives have got them to that point or maybe at a breaking point where they're like, you know, this hadn't turned out well.

And so they may be open. And a lot of people do get converted there in those settings. I mean, look, I think it could work either way. I felt like it was. I think he is talking about, I do think he's talking about people in, in the church that are in prison because he says here, he clarifies at the bottom there. He says, remember the prisoners is though in prison with them and those who are ill treated since you yourselves are also in the body. So I do think he's talking about people that are in the body that are in prison. And it's about us identifying with their suffering.

Because if they're in there, it's got, he's kind of saying, well, you're in there with them. We're all in us together. I 100% agree. I was just trying to be diplomatic because a lot of people, they just did these frozen ministries and they used this. Yeah, you're saying. Wow, that was, I was trying to be funny. And I guess I shouldn't have been because it just was a gong show moment.

But I was just saying that to say that a lot of people, they just read something and they don't really look at the context. And since we don't, in the U.S. don't have a lot of people. if any, in prison because they follow Jesus, you know, we just think, well, that's not happening, but there are a lot of people across the world who are in prison because they follow Jesus. And look, you're them putting yourself in, that is putting yourself in danger if you were reaching out to them in this setting. So I think it was a pretty powerful admonition.

Yeah, you know, if you don't work, you don't eat. and, you know, work hard with your hands, doing something that's good. But this is kind of interesting. Keep your lives free from the love of money. You have to have it when you work. You get paid for your work. You have a job and you're doing what's right. But you can't love the money.

Be content with what you have because he says, never I'll leave you, never will I forsake you. Well, there's a lot writing on a person who loves money but knows he has to have a certain amount of money to survive in any culture. Well, I think we're going to get to that. There's a balance in there. But I think the love of money actually causes a lot of people to be in prison, not for their faith, which is, I mean, that's why. Well, yeah, you just think about it. I mean, we're going to get into the problems here.

I mean, because then he... Well, even keeping the marriage, when you defile the marriage bed as Phil, you know, he talks about that too. That also can land you in a courtroom. You know, well, not prison, but it can land you in a courtroom for sure. Yeah.

Well, Zach, what was you going to say about the prison, being in prison? You were going to say something. Oh, I was just talking about the identification with the body. I mean, I think that I love this whole context of my, the heading on mindset is concluding moral direction. And so to me, it's a kind of an application right here of everything that he's been talking about. This is what it would look like if you were to live out the kingdom and the way that the Hebrew writer is kind of unfolding it.

And you start to see this picture of entertaining strangers and like hospitality, purity in your marriage and in your sexuality. And just the whole thing, living life, doing life together. And when Phil was talking about at the very beginning of this, he had made the equation to elders and how churches are set up. I think it's important because I think there's a lot of this is about doing life together. And God set things up in a certain way so that we could have this accountability and we could be entertaining people and be hospitable and be sharing life together in the kingdom. And some of us in this culture, they were being persecuted. And I would imagine that they drew a lot of support from the church as they were being tormented by the opposition. And I think that that's kind of this thing that he's laying out here.

Hang on, Jay. Let's take a break. And I think one of the themes is empathy when this thing about having an understanding for other people who are suffering. And I've always thought that Jesus' greatest, quality. One of his greatest qualities was his empathy because he never sinned. So he didn't, so he didn't understand us in the way that we all kind of understand. We all say, well, we're all sinners. But he didn't. And yet still, he had so much compassion. How many times does it say he looked at this person and had compassion on them? I mean,

that empathy that Jesus displayed, I think is really a quality that all of us should strive for, that you can see other people in tough situations. And you feel for him. You know, you want to walk alongside them. Yeah, when you get, and when you get to the end of Hebrews 13 and he starts talking about, like, leadership and he uses phrases that we're not comfortable with, like obey your leaders and submit to them.

I've written into situations where people have these models. I just don't think it's biblical to have a model where you have like a guy who gets vision from God and then he gives it to all the people. I think when we look in scripture, we talk about elders. There's this phrase about like a lead elder or chief elder or great shepherd in verse 29. The people of God who are brought up from the dead. The great shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant.

Even Jesus Christ, our Lord, equipped you in every good thing to do his will. There's also a passage in 1 Peter chapter 5 when it talks about elders. But when you talk about like chief elder or lead shepherd or like anytime there's a terminology that talks about like one elder being over all the other elders, elders, it's always talking about Jesus. And I think that that's important because in a church, you got to have accountability and you have to have a group of men that are holding each other accountable. That's what that's what a body of elders is. As a group of men that are meeting together collectively, there's a collective authority. It's not individual authority of one elder. It's actually the collective authority. It's really more about accountability that these folks are

holding the church and each other too to a standard where there can be church discipline and shepherding. Peter said not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock, then when the chief shepherd appears, Jesus, you'll receive the crown of glory that will never fade away. Otherwise, there is something to be said about not lording it over elders, not lording it over the flock. That's the context here.

I mean, he spent 10 chapters talking about it. Jesus is better. We've got a better system. And then he goes through the faith of those who believed in the unseen God and trusted. And then, you know, chapter 12, he really narrows it down to, so you fix your eyes on Jesus. And you throw off these weights that maybe even they are the blessings of God, but that your attitude is not correctly handling. And you be careful of the sin that so easily entangles.

and then he just gives this picture of what we're participating in with the kingdom of God that we talked about last time all of the unseen realities which is so awesome and we talked about having our hope in that but then he gets here and it's like okay so this is how you respond to that I mean fixing your eyes on Jesus which he is our chief shepherd it it reflects the love that you know God has for us And so all of a sudden you start having a love for the brotherhood, having a love for strangers, having a love and empathy like Alsa for those in prison. Having a system of law, these people, the temple worshippers and the priests, the chief priests and the teachers of the law was where all the trouble was coming from when Jesus appeared. I mean, it had become, the leadership had become, I mean, lauding it over people is an understatement. Yeah, that's what I was getting to, because then he gets into marriage,

which is, you just think about it. I mean, a focus on Jesus and an acceptance that there are going to be hard times and disciplined moments, you know, from God, and you're seeing each other, you're not you're not having this fantasy of finding the perfect match you're you're having to work despite the flaws which is a is a way more secure intimate relationship than uh you know this this idea where it's like uh you know to make the who is that that speaker who was saying you know having a marriage is not a consumer driven arrangement which is, you know, you go to the grocery store and what?

You buy what you want and what you need. Yeah, at the most discounted price you can find. And guess what? If they don't have what you need or they're too expensive, well, you just go down to another grocery store. And so I think people enter marriage with that mindset, and they're like, well, wait a minute. I got a better deal over here, and that's why it's so difficult.

But in fact, it's based on a promise, just like, that's why I think he brought up marriage here, that this is a covenant relationship that you're entering, which is more sustainable and more free. I mean, there's more freedom based on a covenant than just trying to figure it out based on your emotions or passions. Because it's not transactional. You mentioned the word intimacy. But I remember the qualifications here, we probably should discuss this more, you know, as a church from me getting the Hebrews and what kind of men you should be, an elder must not be a recent convert or he'll become conceded.

He may become conceded and fall under the same judgment as the devil, which, he must also, check this out. In verse 7, this is 1 Timothy 3, verse 7. He, the elder must also have a good reputation of all people with outsiders. You know, he needs to get along with people who are not godly. So that's interesting, so that he would not fall into disgrace until the devil's trap. And then he says this, deacons, here's another group of individuals just beneath the elders. There to be men of worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, so they're not out getting drunk,

and not pursuing dishonest gain. They've got the money thing where they don't love, love money. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith and with a clear conscience. They first must be tested, and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons. Then he mentions their wives, women worthy of respect. I'm just making these points to see, to show you. Although we're all under grace, there is a tier of leadership. Jesus, the older men of faith,

the younger people of faith, elders, deacons, all the way down. And then teachers, of course. But you look at all that, there is some structure to all this. And I think it underscores, I think that underscores the importance. And I really want to say this

because I'm really convicted about this, especially with what we do. There is an importance to the local church. I mean, that cannot, you cannot wash that away. And when Jace was talking about marriage, I mean, you could take that same type of spirit and move that into the church. And I think we do that so much.

We're going around and we're shopping for this. We're shopping. They didn't meet my nature. They didn't do this. Look, I think the way God designed it is imperfect people in a marriage and growing towards him and closer community with him through community with each other. And through him, they find community with each other. It's the same thing in the church.

And a lot of our listeners, like, there's no. substitute for local church. Like, unashamed is not a church. You know, I mean, even going online. Like, that's great. Tune in online to whatever church, but that's not going, that's not being a part of the church. And it is, there is no substitute for being in a congregation that has elders and leaders that are shepherding God's people to,

to become more like Christ. There is no substitute for that. And I think in our culture, what's happened in the church is we've turned it into some kind of consumeristic thing that we go. and we consume worship. And if we're not getting our needs met, then we're gone as opposed to going and actually participating in a body under local leadership. The whole thing gets too laborious. It gets to be a laborious exercise.

Hang on. Let's take a break. But the key point is, despite the flaws, and that's, you have a commitment. This is based on a promise. I mean, first he says marriage, then he gets the leaders. But he says here, marriage should be honored by all. I mean, because it's a fundamental bedrock piece of society and in the church because it's based on a promise. And it was God designed.

Now, I mean, when you look, when you say, well, what is marriage? Why is that a fundamental thing? Well, you look at what God said many times throughout the Bible. He was real specific. Talking about for this reason, a man, you know, he starts off saying, God made the male and female. And then it says, you know, I think of Matthew 19, Jesus said that. He quotes what God said.

And you say, well, how come he's been so specific? Because in any culture, when you start shopping around or basing it on whatever your feelings or passions or whatever is in, you know, the moment, you can get off by, I just picked that one thing, you know, find your perfect match. Well, that's a lie. that will never be, there is no perfect match because all people are imperfect. You've built it already on a lie. And so people when they get married, they're like, well, this is, this is nothing perfect about this. And so he then quotes and says, for this reason, a man, and you know, he made the male and female will leave his father and mother, which is why I told the guy to move out of the basement and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh.

So you kind of have the overall, you know, and it's human anatomy. It always goes back to that as far as matching the parts for what. So the obvious thing is so that you can have a population. I mean, I don't think I have to go in the birds of bees, but that's how people get here. A man and a woman get together and people come. So if that didn't happen in one generation, there'd be no people. So did you say that and people are like, boy, that's deep. That's how we all got here. That's a fundamental fact. And so, you know, as believers in God's word and that God is the creator,

we're like, this is how people arrive on the planet. They're like, wow, fascinating. But I don't think it's just that because then when you think about when he said marriage should be honored by all and the marriage bed kept pure. So you realize, well, if God is the architect, well, he made this act, the sex act, pleasurable. Because it's obviously pleasurable. So, I mean, so it's not just that it populates the earth, but it's also pleasurable.

But then when you think about the marriage, how it's designed, well, it's based on a promise. It's a vow you make to God. And there's a legal document that you use. sign and you say why it's like we almost like god did with us uh in in in making that promise and sealing it with an oath to abraham and that his descendants would would be as numerous of stars in the sky we do that because a lot of people they'll say well you know and y'all you've heard this a lot they're like well what's a piece of paper going to matter oh it matters because in any other venture

that contract that you signed, even like, you know, I had to sign a contract for doing a TV show. Up until then, everybody's talking and you were like, well, I don't like this and I'm leaving and I, well, once to sign a contract, guess what? There was some security there because now we've made an agreement and it's based on a promise. And look, there's actually freedom there because you can be yourself at your worst, but you realize, oh, this person, we're going to work through this at my wife. worse because then it gets into real life situations. And so I just wanted to sell all that to say, look, there is a, there's a fundamental

difference in having a godly, a God-based marriage as part of the foundation of our society that's actually really helpful and secure. Unfortunately, we've lost that to a large degree and we are now paying the price. Well, you just see the results. Now, I didn't say anything negative, but you see the results of people, what we talked about, having the consumer idea of marriage.

Well, they just stopped getting married. Or they just get divorced because they're like, well, I didn't sign up for this. I mean, because what happens is as soon as you enter that relationship, it's not long for you realize, oh, this perfect, this person is not perfect. And they're not just here for me.

Or they realize you're not perfect. well exactly that's the other side they were like you're you're part of the equation but you know we went through marriage ministry several times like different marriage ministries when we were growing up in the church and when jill and i first got married and a lot of the ministries were how do we meet each other's needs and every time that i got to the end of one of those courses i was madder than i was when we started because i was like wait to say it she's not meeting my needs and then she's like he's not meeting my needs and even in the church we've kind of to amplify this idea that somehow the point of marriage is to fulfill each other. We think about that

Jerry McGuire moment when Jerry McGuire walks in and I think Renee Zellinger's character says, you complete me. And I'm like, that's a lie. No one's going to complete you. I mean, Jill is not, she cannot complete me and I can't complete her. And we didn't find any hope in our own personal marriage until we got to the place that we realized that we couldn't complete each other. And the point of marriage is not just your personal satisfaction from this person, this finite being. It's actually the point. Marriage is a picture. It's a reflection of the inner life of the triune God.

All marriage is meant to do is to show us who God is. And when we experience marriage in that context, it can be the greatest tool of sanctification that God gave us. I mean, trust me. It can cause great harm to children if it's not done. the biblical way can cause great harm. And it's all around us, man. I mean, we see the results of it all the time. Let's take another break.

So there's a reason why, Jay, is that, you know, divorce, the number, the percentages, with every divorce, the percentages go up that the next one's not, the next marriage won't make it. I mean, it's, it's, you can just look at it. And it's simple to understand why it's because you think it's just, you keep thinking it's the wrong person. It's them. But it's you and them and her or him. And that's why it continues to not work because you don't find any resolution.

You just keep thinking, you know, another divorce is going to solve this issue. But you keep taking, you know, all the things that led to divorce in your marriage, you're taking that right into the next relationship. So, Zach is right. If you can't get that part right. And that's why having a godly marriage is so important than just trying it on your own without any relationship with God. It's pretty tough. Well, it's impossible.

I'm reminded of the G.K. Chesterton, he wrote an essay and the title of the essay, it's one of his most famous essays. It said, what's wrong with the world today by a G.K. Chesterton? And I can tell you the entire thing that says, me. And that was the essay. Just me. And that's the thing with our marriage and everything. So we step into a church. Yeah, you've heard it say.

What's wrong with this? Our church is a bunch of hypocrites. Well, when you walked in the door, that church became full of hypocrites. We are hypocrites. We're falling. We're messed up. That's not the point of these relational relationships of God's ordained. Yeah.

Yeah. And we talked about that. We had Ryan Lee on the podcast recently, Zach. And he was talking about when he, because we were talking about worship in the context of Hebrews 12, and he was talking about how that he was working in the college ministry with you. And, you know, he said, but I was approaching worship like a gig, you know, because he was coming in and just, you know, leading worship and leaving the kids. He said, then I started getting to know him, having them in my home. They found out where my coffee cups were. And all of a sudden

doing life together became something unique. And so I think that kind of hits what you're talking about by both a marriage relationship and a relationship in the church, which is, I mean, the Bible calls us the bride of Christ. So this marriage illustration definitely crosses over to the same kind of relationship we have for God. Well, yeah, I think when you look at marriage, I mean, these people get the idea that, oh, this is based on, you know, passion or or a partnership, you know, and when you look at a godly marriage, you're like, well, this is a, this is a friendship based on a vow to God that character change is going to occur. And the reason I'm being specific about that character change,

because you realize if you make this all about passion and looks, well, that's never going to last. You know, or romance, as they, you know, say online, you'll come here and find your romance. And so it's just like, well, God, you base this on a promise. And, you know, when you surrender to God, God, which is, you know, I'm using that Ephesians 5 as he was talking about marriage and submitting to one another out of Christ. And he gets down to the end. He's like, yeah, I mean, you need to have

your role in marriage. You need to love each other. Love is Christ, love the church. But I'm talking about Christ and the church. And in both cases, they're based on a promise. And that promise is why you don't get up and leave when things don't go your way or one of the two. makes a mistake. That's when you get in there and all of a sudden character changes are made. I mean, because I can honestly say, my wife has made me a way better person as this thing has developed. But it came from a godly perspective and that promise was the security there. I mean, if you don't have the security, well, then you're just blown by every feeling in the world. To all the listeners out there, just remember, I'm now 76.

So you'll know, before you get there, there'll come a time when sex is not the driving force behind your existence on planet Earth. You'll understand, okay, it was good when it lasted, but, you know, now. Or as I says, that ship has sailed. Make me some popcorn. There are more important things as shocking as it sound than sex. You'll finally get to the point. Yeah, but when you're 30, yeah.

It takes a few years. When you're 30 and you try to tell, you know, a young man that it's difficult. That's why I think when you have to define love at some point because when people say, well, it's all about love and, you know, well, what is love? And I don't think God did this by accident. He gave one of the most detailed definitions. and it's a paragraph of what love is. And look, in my marriage, I've been,

because Al pointed this out early on, I mean, my wife and I, on paper, the premarital counselor, he suggested that we go on separate ways because we weren't married at that point. He literally looked at, you know, when you take the test and the compatibility for... Jason, you're in a group that probably

worldwide, you're in a group, because I know you're not lying about it, that you waited to you married before you get in your wife's britches, and you said, I'm going the godly way. Thanks for the graphic description. What percentage is Jason, Al, with that decision? Well, we're never going to know what percentage. It's probably small. All your brother's like, and your dad, you're like, no. It's probably small.

But that was, I've said this before, it's a lot easier to be a virgin the longer you're a virgin because you don't know what you're missing. So I will say that. I have way more respect for people. And I have a couple of friends who were living with their girlfriend. They came to Jesus and then they didn't have sex again until they were married. I mean, to me, that's a lot more commendable. However, you know, my wife and I, we did, we did do that because of our faith. And there was a lot of, you know, you're not going to do that by accident.

That's right. So you have to have some, you just have to have some guidelines. And basically the last guideline we had was three months before we were married, we had a phone relationship only. And that was my fault because I couldn't keep my hands off of her. So she's like, just call me and I'll see you at the, altar. So, which is what happened. And look, my first thought when I can't, write the story there. You mean phone only. Just being honest, phone only. You saw the lust, but you can't. I just couldn't

keep my hands off over. So, uh, and, and I was not perfect in that situation, but we didn't come close to having sex till, till our wednight. But when I came out the door, you know, when they play the, uh, dun, done to da, as I came out, because I hadn't seen her in weeks. Yeah. And I thought, will she be there? Because somehow another, it just, I thought, what if she just said, no, because I just hadn't seen her.

You kind of fulfill the old, that old guy said, what's my chances with you, you know, you know, a million, one out of a million. No,

he said, one half a thousand. She said, more like one out of a million. You know, that's kind of, you were in a, you were.

I was dumb and dumber. So, so you check that. Let me, there's a chance. But, but Jay's, so I've made an observation.

I'm a visionary after putting it all together today. So your stubbornness has turned out to be a good quality for you because the marriage counselor said nope. The future father-in-law said nope. And yet you just plowed on through. You're a stubborn man. I mean, you know, 30 years I'm knocking because, look, it hasn't got any easier in 30 years. The personality conflict, it's a daily battle. all. But what I was going to say is what I do more than any other thing is I read 1st

Corinthians 13, 4 through 8 over and over it because it keeps me from being a consumer in the relationship. You know, you're not giving me what I want. You're not giving me when I want. I love his patient. It's kind. It doesn't envy. It's not boastful. It's not proud. It's not rude. It's not self-seeking. It's not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrongs. It doesn't delight in evil. It rejoices with the truth.

It always protects. It always trusts. It always hopes. It always perseveres. And it never fails. And every time I read that, I think, I got a long way to go. Everybody does. I got a long way to go.

It ain't the only one. But instead of leaving and going across the street where the grass is meaner, not greener, I say, you know what? I go back in there and I'm like, Sorry, babe. Let's get this, let's get back going again. It's that same spirit, too, that should translate into how we do church and how we, how we lead in church and how elders should, and how people under eldership should act.

I mean, I think that's the spirit, and I think that's the reflection of who God is. We come into everything consuming, and then we see a God who overflows and pours out. And so there is a, it's hard for us to understand. a God that would condescend and become human beings creation. I mean, that sounds bizarre to us, but I think what this whole thing is going to getting at, this is the application of everything that the Hebrew writer's been talking about. This is what it looks like. It looks sacrificial.

It looks like love. And so I love that you went to that First Corinthians 13. My mom may be memorized that when I was a kid. Oh, that's it. Yeah. I haven't memorized. Well, we're up. I've got my go-to verse, and I love First

Corinthians 13 as well, but I got another go-to verse, and I'll share that in the overtime. If you want to follow us over, it's blazedtv.com slash unashamed to subscribe to Blaze and get our overtime session. So we'll see you on the other side. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes.

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