Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 551 | Jase’s Question That Landed Him in Trouble & Phil Marvels at the Preservation of God’s Word

Episode Date: September 21, 2022

Jase recounts the time this one question got him in hot water with his teacher at school. Phil marvels at how the Word of God has been handed down from generation to generation. Jase says the deeper your relationship with God is, the more the books of the Bible come to life. And the Bible is the only book whose author will never die! Plus, Al speaks with Norman Conrad, one of the curators at the Museum of the Bible in Washington, D.C., about the rich history the museum makes available to the public, including some gems you won't want to miss next time you visit! Sign up to watch the Unashamed overtime show, only on BlazeTV: https://BlazeTV.com/Unashamed - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Well, I'm excited because we are stepping out there in the unashamed world. For the first time ever, out of over 550 podcasts, we are coming to you today from four different locations around these United States of America. Dad, you are the only one that is in the lair, the home base. So do you feel trapped? Do you feel lonely? What are you feeling right now? I was one of the ones down here in Redneckville that when someone told me they're going to, they got this telephone that's coming and you'll be able to see the person you're talking to.

Well, take that when I said, that's the biggest bunch of bull I've ever heard in my life. They're not going to be able to do that. Now, today, I'm talking to you in Washington, D.C., you, in Tennessee, you and North Carolina, and I'm in Louisiana. So I was dumb as it sounds. I said, no, they'll never pull that one off. So here we sit. So what can I say?

You seem angry about this whole setup. I kind of made an idiot out. I live with as you all can. That's the thing about prophets. Even when they're wrong, they're angry. I was saying that won't happen. Don't put your trust in that thing. Get rid of telephone booths.

I don't think so. Well, I think I'll get over it. And I also notice you get different camera angles if you're watching this. And so we never get that Louisiana map behind that because now we have a direct view on that. So that's another good way to describe where that is. So I'm in Washington, D.C., which I'll tell you more. a lot later at the Museum of the Bible. Zach is coming from Black Mountain, North Carolina.

Welcome back, Zach. We hadn't had you in a while. It's good to be here. Galivanting. And then Jace is coming to us from Tennessee from his place up there. So Jays, so where are you at? Tell us your setup. Well, I'm actually at my son's house.

And so we have a studio set up at my little farm. outside of Nashville, but they had a fellow like this. They had a Wi-Fi outage, whoever was supplying the Wi-Fi. So we had a company move. So there's that. You will like my home base. It's called the vault. And it's a literal, it's a literal vault.

The guy who on the farm before I bought it was a treasure hunter, ironically. and he had all his treasures in this vault. He built an alt. He, let me say that again. He built a vault to put all his treasures in. I mean, it's hurricane-proof, tornado proof. It is a vault. Does it have like a safe door on it or you turn the lock?

What's the, what's the entry point? It has a safe door. You turn it. It's like a bank vault entrance. and you go in and you're in the safest place in America, I do believe. Make sure you figure out a way to have a like a backup way out because if your family ever gets tired of you and you're in there in your vault, you're getting ready to do the podcast and they turn the safe door and lock you in there, then we'll never see you again.

Well, if y'all don't see me for a three-day period, start searching the mountains south of Nashville and you'll stumble up on a ranch, a little ranch slash farm, and go to a little side mountain there and go underground. Find the vault. Find the vault. Okay. It'll be fun for you. I'm hoping that it'll be better than the Geraldo vault.

So what are you doing up there, Jay's? Well, it's Mia's birthday, and she just, you know, she just had a difficult surgery. and she's pretty well recovered from it. I mean, the swelling, it took a few months for it to go down and she's feeling good, but she's in college now.

And so we hadn't seen her in a couple months. So it's, we got in the family back together to celebrate a birthday tonight. I ran into her last weekend in a very random place. I was preaching at a church and I turn around and your daughter walks in. Really? Yeah. Well, she's doing pretty good.

You know, you wonder how she's doing when they grow up and they move off. They get in college. But she just seems to be doing great. She said, now, tomorrow night, some of my friends were going to come out to the farm and we're going to do worship. Oh, you got to love that. So I said, okay, that's a good sign. You got to love it. So, Jason, you're broadcasting, or will be from your farm.

and Zach is preaching at a church called the barn. I'm beginning to sense a theme here about barn animals and chickens and goats and podcast studios and farms. I mean, you boys seem to be just kind of going back to the old days or something. You're trying to turn back the clock. What's going on? Well, I told Missy, I said, and this vault is in between our goat pan and the chicken house. And so I said, you know, it's ironic that we're having. some kind of technical difficulty.

You're in a vault between farm animals. No wonder the sophistication doesn't work. I mean, what's kind of hilarious is that Missy got up at daylight because they worked through the night to get that studio ready. And they were lacking one cable that cost less than $10 that you can buy at Walmart. And so I was like, is this? Is this really happening? And Missy said, hey, it doesn't matter.

It's just like Jesus, if you're not connected, you're out. So I don't know if it was the lack of sleep speaking or the frustration, but it was kind of a hellfire and brimstone about you have to be connected. You got to be connected. Yeah. I like that. That's good. So, Dad, you've been, T.

T.L season has started since the last time we had podcast. We were getting ready for it the last time. So you've been whacking and stacking down there? Yeah, one a day. One a day is what we're doing. But we're probably doing better. Yeah, we're probably doing better than old Jay's old Rocky Top Tennessee Jays now, you know. I was in on the first hunt, Phil.

I was there for the one. And look, here was my positive take because I thought y'all were being a little negative about opening day only shooting one. But I said, we shot 100% of what we saw. That's pretty good. Well, a little bunch of seven or eight, ten flew over early, about 30 minutes after daylight, kept going. But the rice field boys are doing pretty good out in the rice flats.

But we'll kill a few in the next few days. You know, it's tough when you're shooting the equivalent of what the recommended daily vitamin intake is. One a day. Yeah, that's right. Good for the body, not so good for the duck hunting. Well, I'll be back in two days, Phil. Blue wing, blue wing teal like open spaces.

And we primarily deep woods. We got a lot of woods. So you don't see as many in the woods as you do out in the flats, rice flats. So, Zach, you haven't been with us a while. What have you been, what do you got going on? Because I know you got a lot of irons in the fire. Yeah, we're working on the movie stuff right now and a few other things as well. I'm working on some stuff with Jason, show that he's got.

Yeah, it's been, we've been, I've been super busy. I went to Nashville, like I told you earlier. And I got to hang out with some folks at a small little barn church, which I loved. It was, it's so cool to see God, like raising up these small churches across. America. So I was there, and we also went to this thing called the Getty Music Conference, which Jace Missy would have absolutely loved. It's kind of like a congregational singing conference and a lot of great speakers just on the kind of theology of worship and being intentional about it and how to get the congregation involved and actually seeing because, you know, a lot of churches

nowadays nobody sings anymore. So it's kind of cool. It kind of brought me back to my childhood when you're in a room with 8,000 people and everybody is singing at the top of their lungs, yeah, it was pretty powerful. So it was kind of on what they call a spiritual high right now after doing that until we got back Wednesday. And now we're in football season. The only downside was Florida, Florida looked horrible. And, you know, we need a new quarterback. The old Gators need a new quarterback, I think.

So that was kind of a downside. But you guys, LSU fans, you are having a rough year, too. Yeah, we if we could keep. playing a lot of smaller schools we'd have a lot better season but we don't do so well against the big boy did florida lose to kentucky oh yeah now i didn't even realize that the better team one we actually watched that game i don't know what you're talking about a down year we lost by one point and then we won by about 50 the rebuilding process is on seduel we will we shall see Yeah, but you're right. Look, we had an interest and we went with our family yesterday and had a, it was fantastic worship.

And it was not a barn, but it was, I would call this kind of a warehouse looking thing out in the hills. Yeah. Same thing. It was, it was awesome. But, you know, singing to God and worshiping has become close to my family's heart. But it also allows you to do things. So this morning, when we called our daughter and sang her happy birthday. I did a duet with my lovely wife. And you know how it ended?

As soon as we sang, Happy birthday. And Mia was like, oh, that's so sweet. That's cute. That's awesome. And Missy said,

you were way off, Jace. I was trying to harmonize. Because if you, you know, which triggered a debate on who was off. I was probably off. Let's face it.

And Missy said, I mean, Mia said, now this is, this is what I love about my family. the courage of me and Missy singing ability. Well, Jay, you've got a tough gig because, I mean, everybody in your family, except for you, sings exceptionally well. And so.

Oh, that's what I was referring to. This is a terrible existence. But you know what I always say? I think when you're like in a situation you're in, I'm just hoping we get to heaven. Like all that balances out. We can all sound great. I mean, I hope that's the way to go because we all love to see. Lisa and I were able to experience a great church in Leesburg, Virginia this weekend.

She spoke at a women's conference. There were over a thousand women at the conference. And, man, she just was amazing. I'm amazed every time I see her in front of an audience, how much she's grown as a speaker and just, you know, how she really brings the most out of a setting like that. But the next day on Sunday, we got to worship with the church there. him really a great pastor and his wife and just they have about 6,000 of attendance over three assemblies at this church.

Obviously, they're doing a lot of good up in this area. It's really good because you get to thinking, like we think of D.C. We're thinking, uh, you know, but there's a lot of people. There's a lot of people right there on the, you know, standing up for Christ in these, these big cities and surrounding them. And we were with those people, which is a great blessing. So they asked us to come back into a marriage conference next year. So we're excited to come back.

And then I'm at the. Bible Museum currently, which is where I'm broadcasting from. So the people have been very hospitable to me. And this is a great facility here. Right in the middle of D.C., like right outside my window, there's the capital, just maybe two blocks away. So I thought, man, I wish I could get everybody over there, Dad, from in Congress to come over here and take a tour of this facility and learn a little bit about what's inside here.

Do you think it would help make us a better place if we could do that? there's no doubt about it. We need to bring God back into all politics and all education sources. Put the Almighty in there, take him or leave him, but at least open the door to hear what he has to say. I don't know what it would hurt. I'm looking around at our culture. I think it would help it.

So that's one of the reasons why I love being here at the Bible Museum is because of a commitment to the Word. So I think that's the importance of why we're having this discussion today. So let's talk more about that after the break. So welcome back. You know, before we talk about, you know, the museum and, you know, have Norm on later to talk about the sort of the historical way we got the Bible here, I think it's important for us to have a discussion about what the Bible says about itself

because, you know, so much is in there that just kind of shows the hand of God, through the whole process. So, I mean, what do you guys think about that? I mean, we think about the Bible talking about itself. The word of God, it's solid food, and people who are trained by it, I mean, they can distinguish between good and evil. And that's true. You just, you take in the verses, and it'll teach you,

the difference between good and evil if you practice it. Right. Yeah, it says by constant use, they have trained themselves distinguish good from evil. I think that's the, yeah, that's one of the powers of the word of God. I've read the scriptures a lot, just more kind of that's a cognitive exercise to understand, you know, who God is. But there's, there's another layer to it that I think the Hebrew writer is talking about,

that it just, it does, it penetrates to your soul. I understand. why the word of God is here. The only question I have is how in the world did it get here over that long a time frame?

You know, 4,000 BC all the way to Jesus, 2,000 years 22, 22, 22 years later gets to us. I mean, it's amazing. Yeah. But it has a different element.

When I read that the Word of God is living, inactive because this is the only book whose author never dies. You know, other books, people write, well, then they die. And you have a book from someone who was once here. But this, God breathes into these words, his existence, which is present, its past, present, and future. Yeah. I mean, to me, that's what the difference is. It's like if it was just a letter, you know, if you're, I mean, I got lots of letters when I was dating and all that. They only meant something because of the person that they were from and how well you knew them.

And I think this is the same way. The deeper your relationship gets with God, the more these letters come to life. But, I mean, that's just the way I look at it. Well, wouldn't it be safe to say that the word, the Bible itself, it's a history book. It's a poetry book. It's a, you know, a lot of different things. It's love letters, as you said. But it's also referred to in John 1 as Jesus himself. He is the word of God. I mean, he was the word. He is the word. He was in the beginning. So to your point, Jace, it's a purpose. and first, and then it's spoken, and then in the nature of it being spoken, it then becomes something that we can follow, and it follows all through human history right up until the current moment where it still impacts us. And all these ancient cities dating way back, and then peoples and cities, I mean, the Bible is used more than any other document ever, ever on planet Earth, to find

places that a lot of people say, what, what this was, there was a city there and they, and they, and they go look and the Bible directs them to where to look and Allah, here they come, they found another city that they didn't know was there buried. You see what I'm saying? The Bible's always right on it. Yeah, and it has shown itself to be, you know, true through, through any of the, whether you're talking about going back and studying archaism. or astrology or all of the different things you found.

I had a verse I wanted to read to you another one and get your take on it. Paul said this to Timothy in 2.15. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved a workman who does not need to be ashamed and correctly handles the word of truth. Now, I've heard that and talked about in sermons, a lot of different things. What do you think Paul meant by that when he was talking about? that to Timothy. Yeah, mine says be diligent to present yourselves approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, which by the way, we are unashamed here, accurately handling

the word of truth. Yeah, accurately handling. I like that too. The letter to the Galatians kind of outlines why you need to be that way. They just thought they'd throw in, yeah, okay, Jesus, his death, his burial, his resurrection, and also you have to be circumcised. Well, they just added one little law to the gospel. And the Apostle Paul said, let them be eternally condemned. Don't do that. Now, I was going to say, I think when you miss Jesus, you know, John 5, they were diligently studying the scriptures because they thought by them that possessed eternal life. And Jesus said, but you've got about me. These, are speaking about me.

But even in Second Timothy, I did a lesson when we were in school while that got me a meeting with the leadership. Uh-uh. Because they had a... He had more than what meetings at. Shocker. The marketing, their insignia was preach the word.

And they had a pulpit, Phil. And they had a Bible open. And I said, well, where's Jesus? So I got up there. Well, they got that verse from Second. Timothy chapter 4 in verse 2 it says preach the word and that was that was and I said well where's Jesus and all this and the reason I say that because if you go back to 2nd Timothy even in you know chapter 1 he starts talking about the gospel in verse 8 and 9 but then he says in verse

9b this grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time and it says but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Jesus Christ, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality of the light through the gospel. But if you just quickly start looking at what the thrust of his message was, in chapter 2, verse 1, he said, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. In chapter 2 and verse 8, he says, remember Jesus Christ raised from the dead descending from David. You'll start to see a pattern here. And so when he get to 14 and 15, and he says that, I'm like, well, Jesus said, when you're looking for the truth, I am the truth. I mean, that's how God chose to reveal himself. And you can't preach the Word or you can't have the Bible without Jesus, who is what the Bible is revealing, which is the image of God. In the same thing, we talk about this a lot, Jason. Me and you are totally in alignment on this. We talk about this even with the gospel itself.

You know, the gospel points to God. The gospel points to Christ. The Bible points to God in Christ. But, you know, my granddad, and for those who are listening, by the way, you may not understand kind of our church history or how we grew up in the churches of Christ. But my granddad, I know he's in heaven now. But, man, we had like this conversation a couple years before he died. And I asked him, I said, how do you think you're going to get to heaven?

And he said, you obey the gospel. And I said, well, what's the gospel? He said, the Bible. And I was like, well, do you obey the Bible? He said, I do. I said, every time. He's like, well, not every time. I said, well, then you're out.

That's pretty sad. And then, like, and then you go to like, the way I grew up in the church of Christ, the church of Christ, like, it was about, like, converting from Baptist to Church of Christ. Like, once you know the right thing and you do the right thing, then that's somehow, like, good enough. And it's like, you've missed, you've missed the point. You're focusing on, you're lifting the scriptures up. And they are holy scriptures, and the scriptures are inspired.

And the scriptures are the inerrant word of God. I'm not debating that. But the scriptures are not God. And we grew up in a faith tradition that elevated the scripture to the place of God, which had all kind of problems with legalism and a workspace system. And I mean, just I think about the bondage and the condemnation that my grandparents kind of lived under, with that and it's just sad, scary. You know, I know why you got in trouble there, Jace.

No, I know because people don't realize the gospel is not a philosophy and it's not a morality. It's good news of a historical present day future person being revealed. And the reason it's good news is because it shows the character of God, his love, his mercy, is justice. But he does that through Jesus by because of the reason. becoming a man and solving all our problems in what he did in present day he's still living and active it was my point what i was getting because if you didn't believe that then when you take the book of john you know how many times the word gospel is in the book of john zero

first second third john zero what did he not believe in the gospel no the gospel points to Jesus. He starts off saying in the beginning was the word. Well, who is he talking about? Well, we all know he's talking about Jesus. And Luke did the same thing. It's not in there. And the book of Acts, it's only mentioned twice.

Yeah. So, but when you read it, you say, well, yeah, but they were sharing what it is. Well, what is it? It's Jesus. Yeah, it's a person. It's not a it. It's a who. It's rather who is it.

This kind of goes in line with this is from Howard Baker in his book Soulkeeping. He said, though my life was well ordered and disciplined, he said, I was too busy serving God to take the time to really know him. And I think that's what happens sometimes. And I push back on this too, Jay. So I would talk about when I didn't have my teach, I preach it. It's like it's more about the Christ of the gospel than it is the gospel of Christ. You have to flip these things to put.

These are a means to an end. You know, all these, like serving God as a means. God is the end. Being in his presence is the end. Christ himself, the incarnation of God, God coming to us and allowing us to get our hands on him and to be with him. Like, that's the end. That's the end of the whole thing. Yeah, that's why it uses it in different ways.

It says the gospel of Christ. It says the gospel of God. It says the gospel of Christ in God. It says the gospel of salvation, the glorious gospel of peace. you know in Ephesians says that because really when you look at Jesus and how the Father and the Holy Spirit interact in the gospel of Jesus they all work together and it produces all those things so I think it's important though you know it's if you start looking at that it starts making everything makes sense and you'll learn to appreciate more the grace aspect of the gospel rather than

trying to understand every little minute detail in the Bible. Well, and to prove your point as we wrap this up, I think if you look at 2, Corinthians 215, when Paul said that to Timothy correctly handled the word of truth, there was no written New Testament when he said that. He wrote that in a letter. So what was he talking about? Well, it wasn't a New Testament because it hadn't even written yet. So it had to be about the truth about Jesus.

So I think that proves the point that you guys were both making. We're going to have one of the curators here at the museum, Norm, who gave Lisa and I a tour last year to join us a little bit on the podcast. Tell us a little bit about the museum. And so we'll be able to share a little bit more of that. We're going to take a break. We come back from the break. We'll have Norm with us. So I want to welcome to Unashamed Norm Conrad, who really impressed me.

He's one of the curators here at the Bialmuseum. He did our tour for Lisa and I last year. I told his people here, the people he works with at the museum, I think I learned more from Norm in three hours than I did in one year of seminary, at least half my time there. So it was really good. So welcome, Norm. I'm glad to have you up.

Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So we were talking in the break. A story I'd forgotten about. We'll start there. Dad, you know, when you did the first time you did, I am second, which I'm going to say now, thinking back was maybe almost 10 years ago. And it was you and mom and Reed and Jep.

And so it's kind of, it's a really cool setup. They have like a white chair, but everybody else is wearing like dark clothing. And so it's just an intense interview situation. And we've done an upgrade since. But the Bible Museum has that chair here. And so when you sit in the chair and you do it, and there's a lot of like famous people and singers and a lot of athletes that are on

there. And so you sign the back of the chair, Lisa and I have done it since. And so now they have a new chair because they're old chairs here. And so I showed Norm on the back of the chair your signature. And of course, now you just signed Phil, exclamation point. I guess you're like gutfell. I guess you started that. And it's a fill exclamation point. And so you can tell them. No, so we're looking at this. And you said, look, dad just signed Phil and he didn't put his last name. You must think he's share. And, you know, it's very humorous. I've actually driven down the road thinking about it and just, you know, start chalking. So it's not much for me to throw Dad under the bus. But, Dad, you know, I says now that you're such a big star, you don't have to be Phil Robinson. You're just Phil, exclamation boy. They know who you are. I never have thought about any of that. That's the first.

Well, we would trust that you're big enough star you can have Phil. So that works. He's now part of my presentation. He's now part of the presentation. Now, Dad, every time Norm takes people around the Bible Museum, he's going to point out your name on the back of that chair, just so you know. So I want to talk a little bit about just basically what you, because a lot of your work, Norm, that you did here at the museum, was actually done far before it opened. And Zach mentioned in the first segment about Oklahoma City, kind of give our audience the genesis of where this came from, kind of how you guys pulled it all together to come up with this. amazing place here in D.C.

So back in 2009, Steve Green was approached by a couple of gentlemen who wanted to create a Bible museum, and it was going to be sentry-located. I believe it was Dallas. And they asked him if he would acquire some of these rare antiquities. And then Mr. Greenwood donated to them once, you know, the museum opened. This is just for the audience. This is the Hobby Lobby Green family. So they're the founders of Hobby Lobby.

So just so you know. So anyway, none of that panned out, but eventually they ended up acquiring, you know, numerous artifacts. And, you know, they had a conversation from my understanding. And they decided to continue on with the vision of opening a Bible museum. And previously back in 2009, I was with a museum called the Christian Heritage Museum. And at that time, it was one of the largest biblical intention. equity collections in North America. And Mr. Green had acquired that collection.

And then they jokingly say that I was acquired with this. I've been a session to the museum. You were the player to be named later in the acquisition. I was. I really was. For cash consideration. All right. So I can be bought.

I just want to let you know. I love it. I love it. So, you know, from that point on, the, you know, through Christie's and Sotheby's and some of the major auction house and some private collections. you know, they started building this collection. But when they bought the Christian Heritage Museum, it allowed them to immediately, you know, do international exhibits because all of the, you know, all of the elements were there to be able to tell this story of how we got the Bible, were the origins of the Bible where it came from.

Right. And so we did international exhibits for the first, you know, five years before the museum was even finished. Right. And so that, you know, it was exciting. We went to Cuba. We went to Buenos Aires. We went to Israel, went to the Vatican twice. So, you know, we've done some really cool exhibits.

And then, of course, we did national exhibits right here in the state at the same time. Which is, I mean, that's a thing about that's a neat concept because you're able to really, you're trying to show people that this is real. So, I mean, Zach, you spent a lot of time in apologetics and kind of trying to to shape people's minds and hearts into what's real. So to be able to actually have, you know, things like this and these artifacts do be able to go around travel and show people that, look, this is real. It's not, you know, this is a collection of fairy tales or myths or, you know, as all these people tend to say.

I mean, how valuable is that to a guy like you that spent your, a lot of your time convincing especially college age kids? Look, this is the real deal. Yeah. Very valuable. We spend a lot of time talking about, you know, how can, how do we know that this is it just made up and, you know, that the Bible's. one of the most well, it's the most well documented, documented of antiquity.

And so, yeah. By the way, Zach, is the Bible, hear some rumors, is it still the number one seller in the world? And someone said there are still countries that don't have the Bible in print, but that's coming down, coming down soon. Is there any truth to that? Yeah, I can talk on that. Yeah, because there's a whole room here dedicated.

Tell them about that. Yeah, so our room's called Illuminations, and we actually have a representation of the past 2,000 years of all the languages that ever been translated. And then across from that, there's another area of languages that are in the process right now, as I'm speaking to you, that are being translated. But yet there's right beside that contingent on the collar of the blinding, the purple bindings are being translated right now. The blue bindings have yet to be established, and there's got to be close.

to about 7,000 what we call heart languages. And out of that 7,000, there's probably a thousand languages still that don't have a Bible in the origins of their language. And some of those languages don't even have a written language yet. So they have to develop a syllabus and then, you know, do a translation. And then so you're not only introducing God's word, but you're introducing literacy as well. But the visual impact is powerful. Yeah. It's great. You all can that room you see by color code, as he described, here's what's been done, here's what's currently being worked on, and here's what we hope to get to in the future. And literally, Dad, I think about it, it's a living out of Matthew 28, 18 through 20. I mean, to every person

in their language, you know, to be able to get the gospel to them through the word of God. I mean, it's a noble undertaking. And these guys have been a part. And there's a, it's a bigger group that's, that's doing it. But I mean, it's to be able to vision. see it here, I think was a powerful thing for me to be able to see that. So you could say you can make an argument that it still is, norm, to this day, the number one seller on earth. Oh, yeah, it's not only the number one seller, but the number one translated book in the world.

Which is incredible. Zat back to what you were saying earlier, tell about the value of that for people that really have doubts about the validity and the authenticity of the Bible. I mean, because you've done it in a practical way, probably more than dad and I have, to be able to explain that to people. So how valuable is that I have something like this or people like this or people like norm doing what they're doing and what you do? For me, it was very valuable.

I mean, I would imagine people that listen to our podcast. I mean, as many people that download this have listened to it, I would assume there are people who have, you know, questions about just the validity. of it. I mean, you think about some of the claims the Bible makes and, you know, there's different ways you can, apologetics is, it's a, it's a part of how I've definitely ministered to people over the years, particularly because I came out of a skepticism myself and then working with college students, obviously, you know, this is a lot of questions that come up. But apologetics comes from a Greek word called apologia, which means to defend. And so if you think about the Bible has all

these truth claims about reality, some of them are hard to believe because you're talking about, you know, people being raised from the dead, your miracles being performed, you know, God created the universe and all that. I mean, it's, so one of the big things is how do we know the Bible's true, which I think is a fair question. So it's interesting when you get into, you know, just biblical history, you know, what do you at the Bible Museum is incredible because it's just testifying to a lot of work that's been done over the years.

And I've actually never been, though. I got to go, you know, visit Oklahoma and see some of the things you're curating there. But I was just curious. Like what? Because I haven't been yet. I need to get up there. But what are some of the more impactful artifacts that you guys have there? Yeah.

So hang off. We do that. Let's take a break. The word impact is a great word because our mission statement here is to invite all people to engage with the transformative power of the Bible. And we do that three ways. We look at the Bible's impact in America and in the world. We look at the narrative or the stories that lie within the Bible, and then we cover the history. And all of those are on various different floors, two, three, and four.

In the area of the impact of the Bible in America, you know, we literally show it as soon as you walk into the exhibit area, the Bible's impact and how it was influenced with the establishment of the 13 colonies. You know, we are not evangelical here. We're not engaged in any controversy, but we are trying to show that, you know, this book was used for the good, for the bad, and sometimes for the ugly. But the most important part is you can't blame the book for man's ill intent of how they've used this book. And we show, you know, how the Bible was used to support the abolitionist movement, even though others had tried to use it to support the justification of slavery. And then at the same time period, when all of this is going on, you know, you have the missionaries who are trying to reach out to the indigenous people, you know, the Cherokee, the Chauta, the Chauta, the Chautau, the Chippewa, the Mek, Dakota, etc. But yet at the same time, as we're trying to reach them evangelically, we're also pushing them further and further away from their homeland. So, you know, we covered the truth. You know, we tell that story here. And so, you know, it's pretty impactful when you actually see. you know, how the Bible, you know, has been used to be able to reach, you know, and change, change world history from civil rights to the abolitionist movement to the revolutionary time period.

And then, of course, as I said, the establishment of the 13 colonies. Which I thought was interesting when I toured it last time I was here, because as Norm described, it's sort of you start at the bottom floor, and this is, what, seven-story building, six-story building. And as you're working your way up, just as he said, it's becoming more and more in depth into the power of what the word is and how it's impacted, not only our culture, but other cultures. And so, Dad, you know, you and I talk a lot about, we're in Washington, D.C., and there's scriptures all over this city. I mean, on buildings, inside buildings. I mean, it was evident the founders were guided much by the Word of God in terms of all the things that are set up here.

seats of power. So, I mean, I felt like it was interesting that I didn't know until you said today, the Greens had originally thought something centralized, which makes sense for people to get to, but it turns out even better to me, to the Museum of the Bible, is in D.C. the seat of the most powerful place in the world. And yet this is where the Bible needs to be more than anywhere else at the heart and center. Wouldn't you say so, Dad? No doubt about it. When we tried this experiment, no Bibles and no God, that started about, I was about a sophomore, I guess, in college in the mid-60s along in there. But when they outlawed the teaching of the Bible and what the Bible says about the God of

heaven, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I've just noticed a severe downturn from 50, 60 years of no Bible in our schools. and I attribute that they just didn't have access a lot of them to the Word of God. So it's not worked out well for our culture. No, it hasn't. And Sammy Norm, because I think I recall this from being here, if I may be mistaken. But the Bible was used a lot in early education in America, right? And you guys have some things that talk about that.

So in the establishment of the 13 colonies, there's a book called The New England Primer. Yes. And it literally used the Bible as part of its educational source. For example, F is for the fall of man. And then explaining what that fall was about, you know, we call it sin. But really, it's selfishness, self-centered, and self-willed and saying, hey, I'm going to do what I want to do. But yet this book from the 17 and to the 1800s, the primer, was literally used into our school system. And then, of course, the establishment, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, all of these schools,

they were schools to produce pastors. They weren't the elite, I release schools that they are today with the ideology that they have today. The main purpose was to produce pastors, preachers, and, you know, fulfill that commission to go into all the world and preach the gospel. And isn't that incredible dad? I mean, think about that that the Bible itself was our basis or kind of our jumping-off place for education. And then our higher, you know, places of learning and education were, in essence, preaching schools that also added in some of the other things that they became. But look at what's happened in less than 300 years. I mean, that's unbelievable.

Yeah. Patrick Henry said the United States, he said, this America, this country is, was founded on the gospel of Jesus Christ. So those founders, they knew it, and they were very serious about getting the Word of God out into the people's hearing. And I look back at it. Some great men came out of that time frame. No doubt about it. And because they were led by the word, which was the biggest, you know, I think it was the biggest selling point of being here. Norman, tell me, what is the much to you, because you've poured over thousands of our,

artifacts. And as you said, you were doing this even before there was a bio museum. What's the most intriguing thing to you that's here in the museum? What's, what's something that like you think, this is really cool. This is really neat. Well, I think research and technology, first of all, it's like asking me my favorite band. There's so many great bands like, no, what's my favorite food? It's like, Dad, what's your favorite book that you wrote? Right. Yeah, yeah. So, but we have an artifact here called the CCR, the Codex, Klamicus, rescriptus. It's a

palimpsis is what it is. And a palimpsis is an artifact, a manuscript that has originally had a context that was written on and then scraped off and then rewritten over top. That's 100,000 years old.

And until recently, the past 15 years, there was no technology to uncover and discover this underneath lying text. And so within our collection, the Codex Clemechus Rescriptus, John Clemichus wrote a book called The Ladder of Divine Ascent. And it's written in Syriac.

It's a black top text that he overwrote the underlying text. And, of course, the underlying text contains the Gospels in Aramaic and the language that Jesus spoke. And so this new technology called multi-spectral imaging, where they take a digital infrared camera and cast shadows over it, which allows them to create an algorithm. And that algorithm allows them to obliterate the top text, the Syriac, and then raise the bottom text so that you can clearly see the underlying text. And the one particularly leaf that we have on an example is the Gospels in the Aramaic. It's where Jesus is literally hanging on the cross. And we highlight the words where he cries out, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And so be able to uncover and discover all of these underlying texts, you know, it's a new educational.

resource. We have the technology here at the museum. We own 120 of the CCR leaves, but we haven't had the opportunity to research all of them as of yet, but we're in the process of doing that. And I remember seeing it when I was here, and I figured that's the one you were going to say because you were excited when you were telling us about it. But so you will continue this process throughout these other documents, and who knows what you'll find, right? I mean, it's just like almost the first discovery on all these stuff. It reminds me of what the Bible says. about itself, it says all scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness so that the man of God will be thoroughly equipped

for every good work. You want to have statements like that, it has to be quite the document to even make that claim. You know what I'm saying? Oh, absolutely. And it's living and breathing, which is another powerful part about it. what else can you say about that, which takes me back to what we were talking about, because you think about something living and breathing. In other words, it continues to move forward in time and how it impacts you.

But in a sense, this thing you guys or somewhat has discovered is also a way to even go deeper into these written text to find even more truth that's buried beneath, which is very powerful. It is. Yeah. So one of the things that they did is they found, you know, there wasn't just one layer that lied underneath. Right. But there were multiple layers. And then one of the layers, they think they believe, they found the oldest documentation of the Constellation Pisces on one of these old manuscripts.

So, you know, that's essentially biblical. But it shows us, you know, that, you know, astrologically, you know, and research what was going on, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years ago as well. Yeah. So we're out of time for our podcast. but thank you so much, Norm, for being here. What a blessing you are to me. Just explaining more about the idea of the museum and why it's here.

We've got an overtime segment that we'd like to talk to you a little bit more about because there's a couple more thoughts that I'd like for you to explain to our listeners. And so to follow us over, it's blazedtv.com slash unashamed. We want to check out a little more at Norm in our overtime. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click that little bell to get notified about new episodes.

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