Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 650 | Jase Won’t Share with Poor Baby Brother Jep & Phil Makes Al Blush

Episode Date: March 19, 2023

Of course the guys can't let an opportunity go by to poke fun at their younger brother Jep! Phil can’t get over how much everyone is aging, and the guys recall the ups and downs of their high school experiences. The concept of slavery to sin and true freedom in Jesus is explored. Zach examines whether we really can walk away from God, or are we once and forever saved?  In this episode: Number 22, verses 21-39 -- Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? So we're back on Unashamed. Jase, was that Jep? I just saw walking out of the, by your, through your background? Oh, he's, he's lingering. Jeff, we're doing a little scout today. And then we'll be filming here in a couple of hours. I mean, we're literally squeezing in these podcasts. But, uh, Jeff come up here and was, he's mad at me because I'm making

him be quiet. Our little baby sister, Jeff, we're so proud of him. He's just made great strides. He was your old roommate, Zach. Remember back in the day? Yeah, he was. I tried to be a good influence on him, but he was actually a bad influence on me. Yeah, you too didn't go well together.

No, we didn't. We didn't work well together. We got in all kind of problems. Yeah, but now things have worked out. Yeah, now we both love Jesus, living. for the Lord. Yeah. You just had to get lined out.

Kids in college. You had to get lined out. I'm just going to tell you, the last couple days have been kind of rough because we've been, we're really nowhere around a store or, you know, there's no fast food places. So I brought me about three cans of sardines and some crackers just in case I ran into this environment. And Jep's looking around like, what are we supposed to eat? eat. And I was like, well, you can have some of my sardines. And he's, he's just like, I could never

eat that. And so now I've noticed that he's staring at these two cans of sardines that I have left while we're trying to figure out where to get some groceries. Because I think it's more of a hunger problem. Are you really hungry? Because I'm looking at Jep, you know, and he's, you know, he's a little bit rotund at this stage of his life. And I think now he's acting like he's going to die it. What you're watching, Jase, is the lowering of the standards. It's been kind of funny. You're watching the lowering of the standards.

As the hours roll on, the standards will lower. Not that we're judging. Not that you were judging. No, I'm not judging. No judgment from Allen myself. No, that's right. Because it's been rumored that we also. are lowering the standard.

And they're bit rotund. So I had one of those moments, Zach, where you look back in life yesterday. We have like a, before we do our sermons, we have a scripture reader. And usually it's just somebody from our youth, you know, at our church, which I love. It's a great tradition because it's usually, a lot of times it'll be a small kid. But you never know because the youth people pick them. out. So I never know who they are and they just send me like right before the information. So I introduce them and gives them a chance to get up in front of our church and read scripture,

you know, which I enjoy that. And so yesterday, it was Chad Johnson's son. And, you know, he's a senior at Western University. And he runs track there. And so he came up and to read the scripture. And, you know, I just realized that in the moment when he came up, and he's a, you know, a strait. happy, good looking kid, you know, senior in high school. And it hit me that when he was reading his scripture that, you know, when I was a senior at Western Ohio High School, because that's my, you know, I'm an alumni of West Monroe, that I was doing a lot of stuff at Western Ohio school as a senior. But it wasn't reading scripture.

And it certainly wasn't reading scripture in front of the church, you know, at WFR. And so it just hit me in that moment how proud I was. this kid, you know, because he's living for Jesus. He's, you know, here he is, you know, doing what I wish I would have been doing at the time. And so it was really neat because I mentioned that and I mentioned that in front of the church and they gave him this big round of applause, you know, like acknowledging that he's taking the higher road. Young people need that. They need that. They need to be, you know, spurred on to goodness, you know, because the one gap in my life was that I wish I had those teenage years that that that same boy was reading the

scripture I just remembered when he walked up there I haven't seen him in years I know he's just a little bitty kid right now I saw him and I said good night that that's Chad the one I converted here about 30 something years he looked like his dad about the age when he was converted so I just you know it was one of those moments you know you just kind of have a like a look back in time you know for me it was 40 years ago just seeing yourself if those young people people knew how fast this thing, they'd catch up with them. Oh, exactly. They would be stunned.

I was looking at myself 40 years ago, you know, and I was thinking, man. I was looking at what was left over yesterday. I thought, I said, that's my only son. I said, boy, I'm having sons who are walking slow to the mic. I was having such a good day. Dad was like, well, boy, it's all over now. Let's just sit in that for a moment. Phil just said I was looking at what's left of you.

He was looking at what's left of you, Al. The basic thought was time flies. Time flies, Al. You know what I'm saying? Well, it does. Well, and we're all going to stand before God. But what's ironic is because I went to West Monroe. And, you know, when I was a freshman, we went to a little place called Woodlawn back then.

I think you did the same thing. Yeah. Then you go to three years to Westboro. Yep. So in between those two years, that's when I came to Christ. And so my first two years at Westboro, and I talked about it in the overtime of the last podcast, that was really the trial for me. And it was a trial by fire. I mean, I was literally in the fire.

I'm with the wrong crowd, which was all the hunters and the fishermen, but they were all just, I mean, living for themselves, getting drunk every other night, sleeping with whoever they could sleep with. And here I am just trying not to do wrong, because that was the loneliest time of my life, because everybody I knew was not following the Lord. And finally, to give your sermon out, 1 Peter 315 came to light. I just set apart Christ as Lord. And I was like, I'm fixed to tell these boys what I'm in on. I mean, they made me draw that line in the sand. And so eventually we moved to a bigger church, which is where, you know, you were preaching yesterday. At the same place.

And that move was really good for my faith. Because then I met all these other teenagers who were actually serving and following the Lord, which made me realize how much we all need that community and support and encouragement. Because, boy, I thought I had literally died and gone to heaven on earth when I met other people who love the Lord. And then that just, it really fast-tracked me to be more vocal about my faith with my buddies. And then once they started coming to the Lord, I realized that this is not a body. about me this the Lord's message is true it's powerful it has all the answers and I'm not going to be intimidated by this these theologies that that try to get around to

the Lord based on how they want to live their life which is really what he's talking about in second Peter two these these secret heresies it's just things that deny Jesus and that justifies sinful behavior and we all go through that in some capacity in our lives. No, it's interesting you said that, Jason, because you remember that verse right before. So my first point yesterday was because he says in the, he says set apart Christ is Lord. And in the newer version it says revere Christ is Lord. So my first point was Winry Revere, we don't fear.

And because he said, you know, don't fear what they fear, you know, in the, in verse 14. And when you said that about having a community, it was interesting because my under that point, when we revere, we don't fear, I read Hebrews 2.14, there's no fear of death. And then I read Romans 8, 14 and 15, there's no fear of abandonment because we're no longer slaves. We're sons. And so there's no fear of abandonment. And then I read that first time four that you did on the podcast last week. there's no fear of imperfection because, you know, he says that where there's...

You aim for... Yeah, and it says where... You never actually hit the moves out, I guess. Perfect love drives out fear. The idea is in Christ because he is perfect. Therefore, we have, you know, we don't have to fear in perfection because we're in Christ. So to that point, to your point, with that idea of community, we have no fear.

and so by the way it was no matter what age you can find that excellent speech yeah well i mean it was just a lot of stuff we talked about on here but i just thought about it was good that you had the young boy come up because those are the ones that needed well and they picked him out somebody else picked him out it was just really interesting that he came up there and in that moment i just saw a glimpse of myself 40 years ago and i thought man what what a what an image that you want to carry forward that that the idea of that. So I just thought that was a powerful image. I haven't been there, you know, in the last three, four years. So you'd be surprised on the difference in the people, the change. I mean, it's people that I never saw before, a lot of them. Which is, yeah,

which is, it's heartening to see young people who love the Lord. Yep. So, so Jay, so I wanted to ask, so one of our listeners had a question. Well, let me give you this before you do the question, is because when I looked at this second, Peter, and you know, people avoid this because it is, it seems kind of scary. I don't know when you were telling me your sermon, I just thought of this because when I was studying for this, it hit me. I was like, basically Peter gave you a base to make life decisions. And all of us have chosen Jesus because we realized he actually chose us because of his love and mercy before the beginning of the time. And he called us through the gospel.

And we answered the call, which is surrender and submission. And we're all in on Jesus. And so every decision we make in life is based on that. So you have your base, which is what he basically does in chapter one. And if you have that base, you can then face whatever, life brings you because you don't know what's going to happen. And a lot of it's going to be bad when it comes to persecution or false teachers or even things that happen just from living in a sinful world where pain and suffering is involved.

So you have your base so you can face life. And then when he gets to three, the race of life culminates with you standing before God. So I gave you three rhyming words for second, Peter. you have your base so you can face the race that culminates with standing before God. It's too cheesy for me, but I thought you might want to say it. I always like alliteration, don't you say that? Yeah, Al loves that kind of stuff. I think it is true, though, what you're saying.

I think if you boil down kind of this setup here in Second Peter, I think if you boil it down, it's like the, it's like the, when the guy has the three wishes, you know, and they're always like, be careful what you ask for. Be careful what you ask for because you may not understand the implications of what you're asking for. And then they'll go into some story of how he thought he wanted money or whatever fame, fortune. And once he got it because that was the wish was granted, he ended up in just complete despair for whatever purpose because it wasn't what he thought it would be. And I think the same thing is happening here. Peter's like, be careful what you ask for.

If you really think that you want to be God, just be careful, you know, with that because, I mean, it's a warning. Don't do that because you are not God. And when you take on the responsibility of being the sustainer of your own reality, nobody can bear that weight, primarily because we're not God and we are not the author of reality. we are not the author of our own reality. We submit to, you're not going to overcome your position as a creature, no matter how hard you try, no matter what type of philosophy you come up with. At the end of the day, you will not overcome your position and reality. You just won't do it. You are a creature who is limited to creature status.

And when you pretend, when you take on the role to pretend like you are the actual creator by denying the master. by denying the master who bought you or by diminishing the word of God and going in these other things, you're going to end up in despair in the end because what you're believing in, you can never sustain that. That's why God's grace is a powerful thing. It's a powerful thing. I mean, you never get perfection. You never get perfection, ever.

It's just a struggle for it. To take your point, yeah, to take your point further, Zach, the three wishes I've thought about that. You know, there's a genie in a bottle. And I mean, it's something the world does. They're like, what would you ask for? Well, I know what I'd ask for. I would ask for forgiveness. I would ask for purpose in life.

And I would ask for eternal life. And when you think about it, that's what God did through Jesus. That's right. Yeah. He gives you forgiveness and grace. He gives you a reason to live life and a way to, you know, getting back to the base, and race. He gives you a basis to make decisions every day in trying to make Jesus look good.

And then he gives you this hope that it's a living hope in that God is eternal and ultimately you will live forever with him. Anything other than those three things is a complete waste of time. Yeah. you think you want your autonomy and you think that you want your freedom. And the film that we're doing, that was one of the key themes of Phil's story is that he's, because he said in the interviews, we were writing the script for the blind, he said, I just wanted my freedom.

I wanted my freedom. I mean, I think you said that, Phil, probably 10 or 15 times in our, in our time we spent together and developing the script. And there's a really incredible moment in the film where you see Phil, at the bottom of his journey. And it's kind of like, yeah, he was free to do what he wanted to do. But it wasn't quite what he thought it would, you know, what you thought it would be. That is correct.

I think that, I think that's what's going on here with this. It's like, it's building this picture of like, man, they're promising you freedom. And these false teachers and prophets and all that. They're promising you freedom. But they're in all actuality slaves. depravity. This is a, this is a farce. This is not true. That kind of freedom is not liberating freedom. It's freedom that leads you into bondage. And, and I think that's the irony of the scripture. Yeah, that's second Peter 219. Yeah, that's in there. Yeah, that's right. It is. And then,

and then the irony is, is that by being a slave to Christ. I think you should read that. Second Peter 219. Yeah, read it because you said else, you said this before. The same thing. Yeah, these men, these, these are springs without water in mist driven by a storm for whom the black darkness has been reserved for speaking out arrogant words of vanity. They enticed by fleshly desires by sensuality, those who are barely, who are barely escaped from the ones who live in error, promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption. for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. For after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

and are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first, for it would have been better for them to have not known the way of righteousness than to have known it, to turn away from the Holy Commandment, hand it on hand it on to them it happened to them according to the true proverb a dog returns to its vomit and a sow after washing returns to wallering and the mire yep true true all true so it's the return to worse than the beginning is the idea well because yes i mean i think going back to

what what uh what we talked about earlier on they deny the master who bought them i think these are people and this is controversial but i don't know how you get around it i mean it says here they were washed and then they went back. You know, they, yeah, I mean, I think that what's happening here, these are people who were in the church. They were Christians and they were being dragged away by these false teachers. And the pool was that you can find freedom somewhere else other than Christ. You can find freedom by following your own desires and your own fleshly, you know, instincts. And Paul, I mean, Peter makes the point here that, well, that's like a dog.

And you've seen this happen before. It's kind of disgusting. A dog will vomit and then he'll return back to his vomit and eat it. And if you ever, if you ever see a dog, do that, it's disgusting. And that's the image. Think about the imagery of that Peter, I mean. It's disgusting, but everybody has to watch. You can't help but watch it.

Yeah. Exactly. And then you say, that's disgusting. Yeah, like a pig. You wash a pig. and what does it do? By nature, it goes right back.

What I was going to say is, yeah, exactly. What I wanted to say is you got to remember, this whole thing has been about growing. You remember all the, the podcast we had about the first chapter, adding to your faith, possessing the qualities in increasing measure,

going back to First Peter 2, he wants you to crave, like newborn and, you know, and be fed. It's all about growing up in the Lord, so you're not tossed back and forth by people who make up stories or persecution or the possibility of suffering.

And so I just think this is an example he uses of why you should grow because he's saying if you're new in the faith, because he had made this reference about those who were just escaping the error. So, you know, they're young in the faith. And he's given you a vivid illustration that the consequences. of falling away from that, even though you're young in the faith, or worse. You know, and I'm not sure exactly what, why he's making a big deal of that, because you're like, well, you're in, you're in.

But I think he's just making a point of, it kind of goes back to that Hebrew 6, where it says you're crucifying Jesus all over again once you've tasted in it. Because you just think about how God's perspective, you're looking down on that. you're acknowledging the good news of Jesus. You've got your three wishes granted. You have forgiveness. You have a purpose. You have eternal life.

It just doesn't seem to fit that you can be talked out of that so easily and dealing with the consequences of that. I mean, that's what I think. Well, it would have been better for them not to have known the way of rights and to have known it and turn the backs on the commandments handed to them that was passed out to them. They're like a dog. The worst people I've ever talked to, every time I, and they're still there, the worst ones I talk to and try to convince them to come back still, to come back.

They're the most miserable people you ever want to talk to. When they get to that stage that Peter is saying, a dog returned to its vomit, a sow that's washed goes back to walling in the mud. when you get to that, after you know better, and after you live the life for a while, following Jesus, and you still turn back, those are the ones, it's like beating your head against that wall over there to try to get them to come back. So you do what you can, and then you move on and say, man, man, what's a good point?

They'll stand over and you curse you, and they loved you at one point, but they'll stand, we'll come over to you. You know, say, I'll tell you what I think I'll do and, you know, put my fist in your mouth. And I'm just telling them to come back to Jesus is what I'm trying to do. And but that's the way they take it. And how often?

It comes up more than you would think. How often do you see, how often do you see at the center of that some kind of sensuality at the center? Always there. Always there. Here, let me say this, Doug, because you said that some people find this verse controversial. And the reason they do, and I could be wrong,

but here's my theory on this. Because people say, well, you know, you can't fall away because you're, and I think they phrase it, once saved, always saved. And that's the reason this is controversial, because this seems to imply that a person was in, then they got talked out of it.

And then he's saying, And even if you come back, you're worse off. So how does all that work? And I've always taught it this way. Peter has it right. And all the people, the nays said, you can't fall away. They got it wrong. I want you to consider this, though.

I think it's more about perspective. You know, God's eternal. His time is not affecting his decision-making process. So God would know the finished product. before we would know the finished product. You know, it's hard for us to know in a church building. If there's a thousand people in there, it's impossible for you to know who is actually sincere.

So we, from our perspective, I think Peter's right in this because we don't know. We're like, you know, am I in or am I out? I feel like I'm in. And we should all be secure. But God, he already knows. So it is true. that once saved,

always saved from God's perspective, of course, because he's forgiving you on your previous sins, the present sins, and the future sins you're positioning in Christ because he sees the finished product. But for us, it doesn't work that way.

And so we have to go through the process of keeping a sincere heart and an open mind. I mean, I think it's really a lesson. in making sure that you are grounded in the gospel of Jesus in every decision that you make. Because when you just become religious, you can fall away very quickly if you're away from Jesus. But yeah, I think that Jace's point is good. I mean, if you're looking at salvation in the scheme of kind of God's economy or God's world,

I mean, he's not bound by time. And so, I mean, this is more kind of a philosophical undertaking. But, yeah, like, God's not surprised at the end. Oh, my goodness, you know, we lost one. I mean, I mean, he knows. And in the end, what matters is, I've always said this too. It doesn't matter. What matters that do you die saved and kind of gets in this whole idea of perseverance of the saints

and the true saints will persevere to the end. And I get all that. And maybe there's a good argument for that. But you got to deal with these texts, too, that talk about people who did taste in the goodness of God. I mean, Hebrew 6, Hebrews 10. The Hebrews 10 has clear language that says that not only were these people purchased, it says they were sanctified by the blood of the covenant.

So you have a, the Hebrew writer talks about it, that they were under covenantial blood. So I think there is this idea that I know the gospel. I've tasted in the goodness of the word of God. I've shared in the Holy Spirit. And the Hebrew writer says it like this. To their loss, they

are subjecting Jesus to crucifixion again. But it's to the loss of the people. And they're crucifying the Son of God all over again. I think what that means is that there's not a sacrifice for sin left past the blood

of Jesus. So if these people here, if you experience, that grace of God, and you're under the covenantial blood of Jesus, and then you're, and you go and you walk in that for a moment, and then someone comes in and drags you away from that with some other type of freedom, I think the point is, is like, there's nothing beyond that. By Jesus, his blood is the beginning and the end of all of it. To Phil's point earlier, what Peter said, I mean, that's the, there's nothing beyond that. And so if you think there is, that's, that's, that's a bad place to be because there's nowhere else for you to turn and you've given up on the only place to turn. That's correct.

That's a sad day when you run into those days. I just wanted to say because since I dropped out, I think number one, that's Hebrew 6 and 10. So you could read both those chapters. But what I'm saying is, so when someone asked me, do you believe once saved, always saved? I say, yes, from God's perspective from our and then if you ask me would can you fall away and I'm like yes because from your perspective you you don't have that godly perspective from the beginning to end so when Peter's writing this he's writing it to people and so he's warning I mean what's the whole point of this he's warning that you shouldn't listen to these false prophets well if you couldn't fall away, why is he saying, don't listen to him?

That is correct. They're liars. And so that's the point. I do think both positions are actually right instead of trying to pick one or the other. I just think it's from which perspective are you addressing it. So when you see the passage is about us being secure and like when Jesus said, no one can snatch them from my hand, well, from God. God's perspective, that's exactly true.

But we're humans and we don't know, so you better grow up in the Lord. I think that's Peter's point. No, it's actually a great thought because, again, we said this before. On a timeline from God's perspective, it's all already happened. So, of course, he knows all things. Yeah, but I think it goes a little bit more nuanced that in that, that, I mean, here's the argument. The argument is between an Armenian position and a Calvinist position, and it's essentially

one side would argue that the other side is saying that you can't sin enough to lose your salvation. And if you could, from a reform perspective, I mean, I think their point is valid. If you can send too much to where God's like, oh, that's too much, you know, then what you're doing is you're putting a limit on the efficacy of the blood, the atoning blood of Christ, which has no limit. And we'll forgive an infinite amount of sin going back to Romans 5, where sin increases, grace increases all the more. That's Paul's point there.

Right. And so the other side would say, well, no, but you can't just, you're saying you can just do whatever you want. And that's, well, no, because if you do whatever you want, you prove that you weren't saved in the first place. And so they go back and forth in this. For me, I think what he's getting at is, is that I do think that we have to, we have to say that there is no level of sin that a Christian can commit to where God will say,

that's too much, you're out. We have to, we have to say that because if we don't say that, then we have limited the efficacy of the blood of Christ. However, I think that the scripture teaches that you can, that you can leave your salvation. I don't think you can lose it. I think that's impossible, but you can leave it. And the reason why I believe that, And this is, we can discuss it. But I believe it because of passages like this right here that talk about people, like saying, there's a warning, don't leave this. If you continue down this road of sin, it's like a cancer that will corrupt your mind.

And you won't see God's presence as a beautiful thing. And you will actually reject it. And you will leave it, which is the danger of sin. That's why that's why it's written. They turn their backs on the command. but that was passed on to them. All you can give them is what God said. They turn their back and they get it.

But as time passes, they forget it. There's something to be said about when a person gets to a point and under grace and he turns his back on that. Yeah, and you have to deal with these passages because it says here that this, whatever this, this sow that returns to the mire, It does say that the sow was washed. It does say here that these people escaped the defilements of the world.

And it not only says they escaped it, it gives us the context of how they escaped it. And it says by knowing the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And so I don't want to get in a position where I'm telling somebody like a Hebrew 6th passage. I mean, how do you make sense of that? I mean, I don't want to say, well, you think you know him, but you really don't know him. And I don't, I mean, there's no assurance of salvation in that. And because then you're always wondering, am I one of the people who think I? That's why I said it's about perspective.

Because you got to remember, he brought up the second Peter two, about the dog returned to his vomit. But he had already said, if you'll go back and read chapter one in verse nine, because he's trying to get us to grow. Why do we need to grow so that we can, we can make it? I mean, we can be assured, have assurance in our faith. So watch. He says in verse 8, for if you possess these qualities in increasing measure,

which is a growing faith, it's a goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he's nearsighted and blind and has forgotten that he's been cleansed from his past sins. So you can forget what you once heard. Well, watch what he says the next verse. So make your, be all the more eager, make every effort to make your calling an election sure. Now that's God, God called you and he elected you.

For if you do these things, you will never fall. That's it. So there's the assurance and there's the security of that. But if you take your eyes off Jesus, I mean, I don't know how any, how it could be any more clear here. All I'm saying is the way to explain it is it's about perspective. From God's perspective, you're in. Yeah. And there's too many passages on these kind of warnings to say, well, that can never happen in the first place.

If it couldn't happen, my argument would be, then there wouldn't be warnings. Hey, make sure this doesn't happen. You're correct. And, you know, I've heard arguments from, like, guys, I have greatly respect. Like, Dr. Shryner, I took one of his classes at, and he talked about that the warning is the method by which he ensures the promise. And I think that's a, that's a logical argument. I don't think it's, I don't necessarily think it's in the context. But I mean, I get it.

And I so I think good people can arrive at different conclusions on this. but I do truly believe that if we understand the vein of all of this as that we are being formed, like you said, an increasing measure, right? We're increasing in our faith. What does that mean? We're being formed into the kind of people who want to dwell with God in the end. And so in the end, as C.S. Lewis would say, there's two kind of people in the world. Those who say to God, thy will be done.

and then those to whom God says, Thy will be done. And so understanding this in the context of God's presence and that God is forming us into beings that would desire him, and so the danger of sin, and I think this is important, it's not post-Christianity. The danger of sin is not,

man, I'm going to sin too much where God's going to get so mad at me, he's going to kick me out. Like, that's not it. the danger of sin is that it corrupts your mind. The danger of sin is that it shapes your desires. The danger of sin is that it will change what you want to where ultimately if sin goes unrepented. You won't want God anymore. You'll want sin and you'll be dragged away and enticed by your own evil desires, and then that'll give birth to sin and ultimately death. And the opposite of that is if I'm a slave to righteousness, which is the opposite of sin, then that's shaping me and that's shaping my desires towards God.

I'm not doing right things to gain favor with God. I'm doing the right things. I'm practicing acts of righteousness so that my heart can be formed, so that my desires can be transformed, so that I can want to be with Him. And that's what I think worship brings us into. And so that's the vein. I think this makes a lot more sense. I know it's kind of deep, but it makes a lot more sense to me.

Well, it does fulfill what Peter ends up said. Peter said at the end there, when we get over our father, the Lord's not slow in keeping his promise. He said, I will save you. And as people understand slow, he's patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. So that pretty well tells the story after what you're going to see, people come at you, trying to get you false teachers.

Just remember, God made a promise that I'll save you, and he doesn't want to punish you, you know, forever hell or fire. He wants to save you. So there you go. He wants to save everybody. I think that shares the heart of God. Yeah, that shares the heart of God in this. I think it helps us have the mindset that Lot had. when it said, like we talked about last podcast, that he was tormented in his righteous soul.

Well, that's the heart of God. Yeah. God desires that all men be saved. That's what the scripture says. And so I think it's moving us into a different posture before him and moving out of a transactional framework of how we view our relationship with God. It is relational. And if we're doing it as purely transactional, devoid, and I'd say transactional, I mean, there was a great, transaction at the cross. But what I mean is it was a transaction that was that was

anchored in relationship and anchored in a desire for intimacy. And repentance is part of it, Zach. And when he said not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. So this whole thing about, well, I've repented, but I'm still running a whore to getting drunk a little bit on the weekend. But I just, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. You hear these stories all the time. He wants to save him. And he does not want them to perish. So he's on our side, not against us. But repentance is the gateway.

It's the beginning, just like you read in Acts chapter two. What's the first thing he said when they were cut to the heart and said, what shall we do? The first thing out of Jesus's mouth was repent. There you go. He said, repent, you know. So one of the things that Zach, it's interesting because he mentions a lot about sin in here. but his key thing that he says in chapter 2, verse 1, is that they will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them.

Yeah. So really, it comes down to lordship more than anything else. Yeah. And once you do that, then that opens the floodgate. So this whole thing, you're talking about what causes men to have the capacity to fall away. it really is denying the Lordship of Jesus. I mean, that starts you on a pathway. I've had them come toward me with their fist doubled when I say,

why don't you just repent, turn back to God, and this thing will work itself out. And they get up, and a lot of them have stood over them and say, well, what are you going to do if I put my fist between your eyes? I mean, if you get to that stage, it's difficult. So I just end up praying for them and moving on. There's a level of frustration there, but listen to how we skipped over a little bit because we went right to 17, but listen to how this gives you kind of a spirit of kind of the warning here of not getting into this. This is in verse 10 of chapter 2.

Daring self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, whereas angels who are greater and might and power, do not bring a reveling judgment against them before the Lord. But these, this is kind of mirror in that language in Jude, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reveling where they have no knowledge, will and the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it pleasure, they count it pleasure to reveal, to revel in the daytime.

They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions as they corrals with you, having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children, forsaking the right way. They have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Bayer, who loved the wages of unrighteousness, but he received a rebuke for his own transgressions for a mute donkey speaking with the voice of a man restrained the madness of the prophet.

Yeah, and when it talked about that, seduced the unstable, and then later which we read, which I think it shows you how dangerous they are. They enticed people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom. I think that is why it's such a dangerous thing, even in the here and now.

I think about recovery ministries. I think about different things where people are coming out of situations where they're just, I mean, literally just escaping situations. And if you have people like this, all around you. If you have people like this in leadership that are false, and you've got these people that have just come out or just in situations, and they're very weak and they're right out of the world. That's why they're so susceptible to this sort of mindset and so easily taking advantage of, you know,

and how often have we seen that, Zad? Where you see situations where it just is terrible. And it just, it breaks your heart when you see it happen and they just get swept up into being taken to take the attention. I saw it this week. I saw it this week, Al. And some of this stuff is even more prevalent than we think in terms of. of abuse in the church, you know, pastors and church leaders sexually abusing and drawing people

into sensuality and abusing their positions of authority and leadership. And, I mean, it's rampant in the church. So this guy, his dad was a pastor who was sexually abusing so many people. I mean, over 50 or 60 victims. And my friend Jimmy, who I went to college with was the one who uncovered the abuse and actually sent his dad to prison. And so he's dedicated his life to exposing this in the church and training the church on how to deal with this stuff. But I guarantee you a podcast our side, there's people out there that have been abused by people in the church and are victims of this.

Some of this stuff is people are victims, like true victims of these wolves that would come into the church and entice people into these things. And I don't think we can talk enough about this because how many times have you seen a church, leader that you thought was on the up and coming and on the up and up and up and only to find out that they were they were doing this kind of stuff and they were they were wolves inside of a church manipulating people for their own you know narcissistic pleasures i mean i think it's i think it's i think it's i think it's just a big a problem today as it was then and and and even even some of it's straight up abuse some of it is drawing people into stuff but it's no the The wolves are there.

No question about it. And I think it's one of the reasons why you have to have strong leadership to be able to shepherd flocks to look out for wolves. I mean, there's no doubt when you see, was it Ephesians? Zach, where Paul was talking about, he challenges the Ephesian elders to be looking for these wolves that are going to be coming in amongst the sheep. I've noticed that working with various people through the years, you know, I go in the back way from on the side of the building where we have just a gospel presentation.

And I noticed that all the ones that are hanging around that just now getting on their feet coming out of a drug-infested immoral backgrounds, I struggle with knowing what their names are. But I noticed something. And yesterday was a good, when I was walking from 1.8 to point B, I don't remember their name, but they all know mine. Yeah. That's right. And your name, your name better rise up on what you're doing.

Yeah. You see what I'm saying? Well, you want to be consistent. Yeah. And you want to be known as. They know your name, I see what I'm saying? That's right. I think shepherds play a part in this that shepherds and elders, pastors,

which I think is all the same role in scripture, it is to watch out for the wolves. I read this this week, John 10, when Jesus talks about the good shepherd. And, of course, he is the good shepherd. But he's a model for all shepherds to follow. I think that mirrors that language in First Peter of chapter 5. But when he gives the difference between the good shepherd and a hired shepherd, a hired man, he gives a difference. He says the good shepherd loves the sheep.

And so the good shepherd will run the, when the wolf comes in, the good shepherd will go in and he will protect the sheep. A hired, the hired man, he doesn't really care. He's a hired man. And he'll just, he'll let the sheep the wolves come in there, pick off sheep. It doesn't really care. So I think that role of elder, shepherd, pastor, I think we need to take that really, really serious, particularly when we talk about protecting the flock from people who would come in

and do exactly what Peter is warning about here and second Peter. You know. Yeah, because you're right. There's not, as the shepherd myself, there's nothing that weighs more heavily on me is to see someone, see their faith damaged over some person who makes someone question their faith in Christ. Yeah. Over some false situation, whatever it is. Yeah. And I've seen it before, and it really, really bothers me.

Me too. I mean, at a deep, deep level. because it's just, it's, it's uncalled for. And it may not be as bad as some of what we're reading here in Second Peter, but it really weighs heavily because you feel that. You want to, you want to protect them from that, you know, because, you know, they're your sheep. I mean, and you're appointed to watch after them.

So it's a very important responsibility. And I get it. I get it why people feel that, you know, to want to be able to protect. So that's the idea here. And a lot of people have asked me about that that are out there that listen to podcast because they've been in ministry and have gotten involved to some things. And they asked me, they're like, look, should I stay in ministry, even though I've done X, Y, and Z. And I'm always like, look, I err on the side of if you have violated some of these things we're talking about,

you probably should think twice about leading other people because you need to take some time and work some things out between you and the Almighty. He takes these things super seriously in terms of you know, crossing the line with some of these situations they were reading about. So, you know, I would take that very seriously. Yeah, I would too. You know, you read it. Let me read this real quick. John 10, he, I'm the good shepherd.

The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired man and not a shepherd who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming. And guess what he does? and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep.

I am the good shepherd, and I know my own, and my own know me, even as the father knows me, and I know the father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. I love that, man. I think we're talking about the promise of God.

I think that's his promise to us, is that he lays down his life for his sheep, And then I think as elders, pastors, even just people who, I mean, you may be shepherding your own family. You know, but like we have to embody that kind of spirit of Jesus that says, I'm not going to abandon when the wolf comes. When these heresies come, when these heretics come in, we're not going to abandon the sheep. No, we're going to, we're actually going to turn our back to the wolf. And they're going to bite somebody. They're going to bite us.

You know what I mean? I think that's the spirit of what the shepherd should have here. Yep, protectors. That's good. All right, we're out of time. We'll wrap this up this chapter two in our overtime segment. If you want to follow us over, blazediv.com slash unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast.

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