Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 708 | Jase Finds His Vocabulary Expanding Rapidly & Why He Avoids Rabbit Holes

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

The guys can’t help but continue the debate spurred by a previous guest about whether Jesus was the Son of God before he became human. It’s Al who drops a fancy new word on Jase this time! Phil points out some interesting messianic prophecy from the Old Testament, and the guys try to come up with illustrations that perfectly articulate their viewpoints on the omnipotence of God.  In this episode: Romans 9, verses 4-5; Hebrews 2, verse 8; Isaiah 9, verse 6; 1 Corinthians 15, verse 25 https://philmerch.com – Get your “Unashamed” mugs, shirts, hats & hoodies! Show Hollywood we're willing to show up for great movies with a strong Gospel message. Get your tickets to "The Blind" TODAY: https://www.fathomevents.com/theblind — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? So welcome back to Unashamed. We got Zach with us out there from North Carolina. It's interesting because Zach was, we've been doing some other recordings today. And Zach said, oh, y'all are, y'all haven't gotten as far as I thought. And I said, well, we were doing some ads. And Jace was in a bloviated mood. And so it took a while to get, to get those ads done.

So he's got his phone out for those who are watching. He's looking it up. Bloviated. Bloviated. But Al said it. Bluviated. Huh. I thought it had something to do with y'all's anatomy.

Oh, that's bloated. Oh, I see what you did there. Bloviate is to talk at length, especially in an inflated or empty way. Well, some people are bloated and some. people, bloviate. I think I got the better deal out of it. That's pretty good comeback. That's why I wanted to open the podcast with this, because Jace, I always liked to get your take on things and let you defend yourself, because I was talking bad about you off camera. Well, people that bloviate without being

bloated, they tend the, even though they talk at length, it's not so much hot air. Yeah, I'm looking for bloated. I don't see that one in there, but that's a... I don't think that's an actual word. I always called it bloated as a word. Yeah. Well, that's right. Well, Jay's just had a lot of added extra content that is not usable for the podcast or for ad.

So that was the bloviated part. Well, I just figured I was pontificating in a way that was interesting. There's a good word. We have bloviating and pontificating in the same podcast. It's not bad. So, Jay's your podcast, I mean, your podcast, your vocabulary is really expanding because of this podcast. And I think you're an educated man. Well, what happened on the last podcast is y'all gave me a headache.

So y'all got so deep. When Larry Bowles and Zach started pontificating on, I wasn't even sure what I believed. I was thinking, I hope I'm still in. I don't know what just happened most of that was in the overtime segment I didn't say anything till I got to the overtime segment and then we ended the podcast y'all y'all gave me the final word

and I was like how much time do I got and you're like well we're out of time and I'm like and I got the final word and I'm like I disagree that was my final word just that was pretty simple yeah the final word for Zach was he's out of time Because it was just to remind the audience, we were talking about the Trinity and the trying nature of God, which is not the easiest concept to wrap your brain around anyway. So to be fair. And Larry had kind of an interesting, the way he put it was it was a question that keeps him up at night. It's a question I hadn't even thought of, so I'm certainly not losing his sleep over it, as to were the relationships between the deity.

the father, son, the spirit, were they always like that and have they always been the same? I'm trying to simplify it. Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty deep concept. I'm not sure exactly what. Every time we mention Larry Bowles, was that thunder?

That was thunder that made me jump. My heart, whoa. Yeah, there's something going on. This man has got to link into the Almighty. We better not talk about it anymore. I'm afraid to go any further here. I mean, oh, man. Man, that's funny.

No, I think the, yeah, the discussion was, is God eternally a father, son, and spirit? I would say yes, you know, and I think I've got a good reason to believe it. I don't know if he would disagree with that or not because we really, we just didn't have a lot of time. We didn't have enough time to get into it because he kind of made the implication from John 1. that it changed when Jesus became flesh. And so that was kind of what I got out of it. So then he had some other verses in Isaiah. Well, why don't we just look at it?

Because since said discussion, you know, I studied a little bit, but why don't we go through a few of the verses. I'll try to represent the common man because I am a common man. I may talk a lot, but I'm not real sophisticated. And I think where maybe this discussion launched from is because that is an interesting verse in Isaiah 9 in verse 6, where it says, for to us a child is born, I mean, you hear this every Christmas, to us his son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders, and he will be called wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace. Well, that phrase, everlasting father, in a reference to Jesus being the son of God, I think that's where that got launched. 100% God, to 100% human. Yes.

I'm at Jesus. You got Jesus. The how that came about, born of a woman, all of this done before the beginning of time. so it's beyond the scope of understanding exactly how that came to be. Well, it is for me and you, I think. But these guys who read these books and I think we... I'm the guy that has a book. That's me.

You train me well, Phil. I've only read the Bible, and I do think you have to be careful when you go down rabbit holes and reading other people's explanations in that it's like in this case, the more knowledge you have, the more confusing it can be. So what I would like to do is just ask three or four questions, and let's talk about them, because I think these are simple questions in familiar verses

that maybe Zach can take the lead on as an explanation. Because what I thought was, number one, on this particular verse, and tying in with John 1-1, when it says, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And when you get to 14, it says the Word became flesh. You get to verse 17, Jesus, the one and only, or begotten, has made God known.

So my first question would be, since Isaiah is obviously referring to coming of Jesus, is what does that mean when it says Jesus is and was the word. In the beginning, he was with God, the word. So what do you all think about that? I think that's a simple question that people would wonder. Well, he became flesh, and we know Jesus. And putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to it.

Yet at present. Where you are? We do not. Tell us where you're at. Hebrew chapter two. Hebrew chapter. About verse eight, we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death so that by the grace of God,

he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God for whom and through whom everything exists should make the author of their salvation, that you, I, and the rest of us, perfect through suffering. Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family.

So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. Blood kin with the son of God. You say blood kin. I'll declare your name to my brothers in the presence of the congregation, I'll sing you praises. And again, I'll put my trust in him. He's 100% God. He's 100% man. And that passage does go on to say, like John 1 in verse 14, since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his

death, he might destroy him who holds the power of death. That's as deep as I'm going to dig. Well, that's why I had brought up. Because it'd get your head spinning if you start saying, what's the word? Let's do a little head spinning. It's all right. I brought up that C.S. Lewis quote about it's not in God's nature to suffer, to surrender, to submit. He's God. When you look at his omnipotence, his omniscience, all knowing all power, here's whatever the word is for being everywhere at the same time.

He's eternal. but if he became a man, all of a sudden he could do something perfectly being God, which is he could die, he could suffer, he could surrender. And so then you get to the Philippians 2-5 passage, which says he emptied himself, which I think is the biggest controversial lightning rod on what that means. he emptied himself taking the nature of a human. And he became obedient. Blood can.

From the beginning, blood can. Yeah. So, Zach, do you want to respond yet or do you want me to ask some more questions? He showed us how we could live. He showed us perfection on behavior. I mean, 100% flawlessly perfect. Before Zach answers, let me say this. I've always thought that the reason Jesus being God, being eternal, always existing,

he just, when it said he emptied himself, I've always thought, now I could be wrong, and it's okay, y'all can use me as a guinea pig. I thought it was like, it wasn't necessarily that he emptied any part of being God, but he just took on being a human, and by doing that, I read an illustration one time, a long time ago. I forgot who wrote it. But it was like by doing that, it's like there was an emptying based on him adding being a human. And the illustration was this.

And y'all can pick it apart if you want. Because this is just the way I wrap my head around it. So let's say a guy goes to a place where you buy cars. And you have a brand new car that's all. awesome. And the guy says, look, can I take it on a test drive? And so when he does, he just, you know, he checks it out. He, he, you know, revs it up. He takes off. But along the way, he sees a muddy field. And as most rednecks do, and this is why this illustration was appealing to me, he wanted to see how it would do in the mud. So he goes out there and just, I mean, lights it up, encases the vehicle with mud. brings it back to the dealership, and now it looks unrecognizable from what it was. And the illustration was told in light of Philippians 2, 5, because it's still that same car.

Nothing changed. He just added a lot of mud, and all of a sudden, it's in reality disguising the glory of the new car because mud has been added to it. And so that was the illustration I heard of Philippians too. Jesus, you know, all the deity lives, where's that verse, all the deity lives. And bodily form. Colossians too. But by him becoming a human, that became disguised a bit.

And that's why when he went around saying, I'm the son of God, but he also said, I'm the son of man, almost an equal amount of time. It was a little harder to wrap your head around because you're like, well, aren't you? you that carpenter from, so the mud, in essence, would represent the him taking on human. That was the illustration. Pick it apart. Go ahead, Zach. I was going to say, if you back up a little bit, I think, because when I thought about this after the podcast, I was like, why does it matter? Because I think that's an important question. That is correct. And I think it does matter in this way, but there is a raging debate on does the father eternally perceived?

Does the son eternally proceed from the father and all that? There's a whole bunch of stuff on that. But the good people disagree on. But I'll borrow from a guy named Michael Reeves that I think has written a really good book about this and has a good biblical defense of it. When he says that the most foundational thing that you can know about God is that he's not, it's not some abstract quality, but that God is a father. That's the most fundamental thing about God that we can know. And he says, a father is a person. Just think about it.

What is a father? A father is a person who gives life and begets children. So if before all things, God was eternally a father, then this God is an inherently outgoing, life-giving God. He didn't give life for the first time when he decided to create from eternity. He has been life-giving. And I, so the reason why I kind of was pushing back is because I think that even the gospel itself is rooted in the nature of God. It's flowing from his nature.

And so when you have an eternal God that is a that is three persons, what is the distinction between those persons? And I think that the scripture teaches that it is that he is fundamentally father, son, and spirit even before the New Testament. And now, I know Larry's point was when the old, he had like a couple Old Testament references, but the, but the, the New Testament, think about it. I mean, the concept of God even being triune was not fully explained until, I mean, there was references to it in the Old Testament. Genesis 1 in the beginning was the word, the words, I mean, I'm sorry, in the image of God, he created them both male and female. You had that singular language and the plural language in the description of God. He made them, let us make man an hour. image. He created them in his image. So you have like these, these morsels that God may be

triune, but you don't really understand that until the coming of the New Testament. So you can't look at the Old Testament and try to make your case there because you're, you don't have a full picture. So then when you move to the New Testament and you see how Jesus describes himself repeatedly as the son. And, you know, we mentioned Psalms 2. Today, You have become my son? What is that? The Psalms 2 passage that we mentioned. Psalm 2.7.

While you're looking up Psalms 2, I said I was going to represent the common man because you hurriedly went through that Genesis 1. But that is a, that's something I think that's a really good point. I mean, you had the spirit hovering over the waters. That's the first verse, Genesis 1. you have God about to create, you know, the everything we see. And then I always thought that when God said, the word said, because the Jesus in the beginning was the word. I thought it was the expression or the communication of God.

Now, he became flesh, but he was part of that Godhead because when you get to Genesis 1-26, which you just quoted. And God said, let us make man in our image. But I always viewed the word said, that communication as the expression or the word of God, who is Jesus,

who has always been part of the Godhead, who became flesh later on. Yeah, I agree with that. I think a word, the logos, the word, it said, think about that. It is an expression. It's the expression of God, the father. And so it's proceeding out of, but it's not something that this happens. Like there wasn't

a moment when the word began to proceed from the mouth of God. That's eternity passed. And so we said, well, that's hard to understand. Yeah. And I think that brings us to kind of what Calvin's point was about understanding the Trinity. You can't understand. We're never going to fully grasp the triune God. all we can do is understand what's been revealed in scripture. And he says when I think the phrase is like he almost like he he lisped to us through self-revelation, meaning that he almost condescends in a way like you talk to a kid. And you know, you kind of change your voice when you're talking to your two-year-old, you know, child. Well, that's how God does when he communicates himself to us because he's so high above us.

But this idea, though, that he's primarily father, son and spirit eternally, I think is important. And when you get to Psalms 2, he says, I will tell of the decree, the Lord said to me, you are my son. Today, I have begotten you. When I read that, the first question that I had was, when is the today that he has begotten the son? And I think that question is interesting, but I think it's twofold. I think it's eternally. But I also think there was a moment in the New Testament when this happened. You guys remember in Acts 13, 32, and 33.

Let me pull that up. But this is Paul essentially going through the whole story of redemption. I mean, he goes from the Exodus to the, I mean, he goes through several key points in Israel. Israel's history all the way through John the Baptist. He's like, then John the Baptist came and he was paving the way for Jesus. So he's kind of like summing up church history, or at least the Jewish history, history in a sermon. And then he says this in verse 32, and now, let's see, and now he witnessed to the people,

and we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to our children. And here's how you fulfilled it. In that he raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, You are my son. Today I have begotten you. As for the fact that he raised him up from the dead,

no longer to return to decay, he has spoken in this way. I will give you the holy and sure blessing of David. So I think that today that he's saying, talking about here when God said this to him ultimately was at the resurrection. Like this was like the summation of this. It was the, so this Psalms 2 reference, Romans 1 3, Paul presents the basis for the good news from two vantage points.

He presents a one. He reached Jesus in the lineage of David. That's his human nature that Phil talked about, 100% man. But then he also talks about the resurrected life in verse 4. So he says he was declared to be the. son of God in power according to the Spirit of Holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ, our Lord. So the question is, when was the son of God declared to be the son of God in power?

And that answer is it was at his resurrection. It was the resurrection of the dead. And so this guy that I was reading, I thought he summed it up well, Jason Meyer, he said, this declaration in Psalms 2, it's a moment of enthronement because he is the son of God in power. So the phrase, power is related to the first phrase descended from David. He fulfills the promise of the royal son of David who would rule on Jerusalem's throne. So in this podcast, we talk a whole lot about the temple. We talk a whole lot about the throne.

We talk a whole lot about the kingdom. I think what this means is is that what was happening in the Psalms 2, that was a messianic prophecy of the prophesying of the coming of the David, the Messiah, the Davidic king. But he's coming in the power of the Holy Spirit. So you're seeing the summation of all of this earthly and heavenly kingdom that's being realized in the person of Jesus. And so that's what I think he's talking about. And that's when I think this moment of Psalms 2 is referencing. And so if that's true, then you have to think about what about all those other passages before Jesus's resurrection when he refers to himself as the son of God? Like he was clearly the son of God before the Psalms 2 references is my point.

Does that make sense? I think this is just my opinion of what Larry's point was, is that he was saying when Christ came here was the fulfillment of that idea, which is a little bit different than what you just said, Zach. And that was affirmed in moments like when Jesus was baptized, remember, and you see the Holy Spirit. and what was the voice of the father? This is my son in whom I am well pleased. That does need to be addressed why Jesus, you know, he didn't do any miracles before he got the Holy Spirit. He surrenders because, you know, he's a man. I've always thought that he did that.

I may be wrong on this. This is just how my brain works. I thought what Jesus became a man. a man and died and was buried and raised and made the spirit available so that we could become godlike it was like this is the path i never went any further than that i just thought he became a man because the the true awesome nature of god to go back to that quote again is not a weak surrendering, submissive. I mean, he's so much more powerful than us.

But he became a man to do that, motivated by love and us, and then showed us that path by becoming the man, adding the mud to go back to the illustration. So that then we could in turn do that in reverse, put our faith and trust in Jesus, allow his power inside of us, which would then, in the end,

the resurrection, we would be like him, you know, 1 John 3. Am I wrong on the? No, I don't think you are. I think that I think that the Psalms 2 reference, though, is my point is, is that that that is a reference, I think that what he's talking about there is what is happening at the resurrection of Jesus, that there's this vindication. Yeah, it started with his incarnation, but it wasn't finished until, you know, the resurrection. that's when the thing was fully, I guess, summated, or that's a word, but the summation of it was in that moment.

And so today you become my father. It seems to be, you know, Paul seems to be linking it directly to the resurrection of Jesus. And I think that's the other passage in John, was Acts 17 that he says, by Jesus, he's going to, by this man, he's going to judge all things. And he's given proof of this by raising him from the dead. So my point is if this is when this is happening, then what do we do with these verses before? Like John 1724, Father, he says, You love me before the creation of the world.

So it seems to be a father some relationship before the creation of the world. John 14.6, no one comes to the father except for me. This is all happening before Jesus' resurrection. I think it's because he's giving us a clue throughout his whole ministry of that there is an eternal relationship of a father who is eternally generating a son eternally. There's never been a moment when that wasn't reality. And so God, in his very essence, is life-giving. And that the spirit is that relate or that love between these two as an actual person.

And it just, that to me is, is so beautiful because what it says is that, is that it's just a reference that we can, it's the one reference that we can kind of understand if you had a good father in your life. But if you didn't, I get why that could be difficult. I'll see the point. Hang on, hang on,

Jay's. Let's take another break. And I think that's, I think we're in a very similar neighborhood because what I took from what Larry was saying, is all what you said is right, is that. But we would never realize that unless Jesus came here and showed us

what that relationship is. Because to his point, you didn't see people calling God, Yahweh Father. But the proof, you're right behind the proof, the proof to be proven all of this,

as far as the resurrection of the dead goes, that is the proof. The end will come when he hands over the kingdom to God, the Father, after he's destroyed all, dominion, authority, and power. He must reign,

until he has put all his enemies under his feet, the last enemy to be destroyed. To clear all this up on the power of Jesus Christ, was he God or was he not God? It'll all be worked out. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. That's the final proof, dead men and women coming out of the ground to live forever.

Then you can say, I see how this marched all the way down, and he is who he said he is, God and flesh. That's as deep as you need to dig. Apparently. Because you're going to know whether there was something to this or not or you're going to be in a hole in the ground for however long the whole thing lasts.

And I think there's good people disagree on this. I mean, as I was researching this, the country of death is beyond, it's a big thing with God. But if he doesn't fix that, we're done. Well, the only problem I see after listening to Zach is what does it? I mean, he was the word. He is the word. But he became flesh.

Something happened. You have to account for, there was an earth-shattering, literally, happening there. So in your dissertation, I think you're not really addressing that issue. That was just my take. Well, because I should address that. I think that you have father, son, spirit, eternal. Like, that is the God of the Bible. And then you have that God who incarnates through the sun.

And so the Philippians 2 passage is when you mentioned that earlier, he doesn't empty himself of divinity. He just takes on an additional nature. of a servant and being found in human likeness and being found in appearance as a man, he almost himself became obedient to death. That's the connoisseursion of God. So you liked my illustration then about the call? I always get weird about it.

I don't know. I don't know if I like to. Well, I mean, look, you can take it or leave it. You can leave the car. You don't have to go drive the car. But in my simple mind, if this is not helpful, you know, drop it, you know, flush it down the commode. But I just thought, it's hard.

for me to read a verse that says he emptied himself because the next question that 99.9% of people would ask is, well, what did he empty? And so then what I'm, then I answered the question after doing study and research and remembering what I used to think about this, is like most people say, well, it wasn't necessarily that he threw something out the window. It was that he added something to his nature that in essence, changed his, I mean, I don't know the word for that. It changed forever him going forward because I believe he's still a man. I believe he's still God, you know.

So there was something that happened there. I see what you're saying. There's an analogy I heard one time that I kind of liked, and I actually heard from a guy named William Lane Craig, who I think actually would disagree with the nice in creed, which is that God is eternally Father. He's actually written an article on this as I was researching it.

But I like his work a lot, and I respect him a lot. I think he's super sharp. But he talks about this phenomenon. And when he's describing what's known as that Christ has two natures, the dual nature of Christ. You have his divine nature and his human nature, and

the human nature is the one that he took on. He made the analogy of like a tuning fork. He said if you hit the tuning fork, what does it do? It makes a vibration and it manifests itself in a sound. You can hear the zzz. You can hear it. You can hear the noise that it's making.

So the manifestation of the tuning fork being hit is sound. You take the same tuning fork and you put it in a vacuum and you hit it. It doesn't manifest in sound because it's in a different paradigm. And he says the same way with Christ in his divine nature, the way that manifests in is that he is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all of the things that God is. And in his human nature, he is limited. It manifests itself in a limitation of, I don't even know when the end is. Only my father in heaven knows that.

And so you see Christ has, he has this dual nature that can manifest itself in different ways depending on the realm that he's occupying, if that makes sense. So let me read this. So this is Romans 9 verse 3. I'm kind of taking that context, but I just think I mentioned this to Larry, but we didn't really discuss it. So Paul is writing to the Romans. He said, for I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. There's is the adoption as sons. There's the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises. So he gives a little review of God choosing a nation. But then he says in verse five,

theirs, you know, from the nation of Israel are the patriarchs and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ. We have two genealogies. We've talked about them. Who is God forever, who is God overall forever praise? I was curious what your translation says to that, Zach. So to me, to get back to Phil's point, you know, Paul seems to be making a point here in who Jesus is, which is you can trace his human ancestry.

There's two genealogies, Matthew and Luke. Now, one of them is a little bit more curious, because it's the, and we talked about that with the adoption of Joseph, and it's an interesting, you know, thought. But the bottom line is, Mary was a virgin, and she gave birth to a son. His name was Jesus, and it was a fulfillment of Isaiah 9. But also, just to add one thing, and then I'll let you comment. So when I asked my scholarly friends, I have a little pool of people,

because it's so hard for me to do the find, go down the rabbit hole and see what the Hebrew words mean. And so I asked him about that Isaiah 9. I was like, what does that mean with the everlasting father? Because I've never noticed that. But his first response was from the Hebrew word. He said, I think a better translation would have been eternal source. Now, I'm not sure. That's all he said.

I just found that fascinating. But he's like, I don't think it would be as hard to wrap your head around if you've read that phrase. So I thought I'd bring that up just to add. Yeah, actually, I think I agree with that. I actually agree. I think that's what I'm trying to say, that the father is the eternal source of the son. But there wasn't a time when the son did not proceed or was not beaming out from the father. And that's, and that's the beauty of what Michael reads.

writes about, I think he does such a great job in the book, delighting in the Trinity, which I mean, it's one of the best books I've ever read on understanding who God is. And it really inspired me. When to think about God is an eternal fountain of life. I mean, and then you see that in the gospel. I think that's what you see in the gospel. You see the going out of this, you know, you see this fountain of life.

So even when you get to like 1 John 4-8, which I mentioned in a previous podcast, gives a description of God. What does it say? God is love. And I've quoted that verse a thousand times, but you know what the very next verse, verse nine does? It links the definition of God as love with God being a father and son, because it says by this, the love of God was manifested in us that God has sent his only, begotten son into the world so that we might live through him. So I think there's this eternal nature of the son being begotten, like he's eternally being sourced or is sourced from the father or proceeds from the father.

And then I also think at the same time that Psalms 2 is there's a begotten of the son that actually happens at the resurrection. And I think it's both. and I don't know if Larry would disagree, honestly. I don't think... I don't think he would disagree on anything. Yeah, that you said. I feel like we got into a discussion that both of us were like,

we weren't ready for such that. But I think that we, I would love to know his thoughts. I don't know if he would say, I don't know if Larry would say that the son was not eternally son. The father wasn't internally father. I don't know if that's what he was saying. No, he wasn't saying that. I think what he was saying was we can't, we could never,

humanity could not see this relationship clearly was only alluded to in prophecy until Jesus came. Yeah, I agree with that. So I think that was his big point. Right. Exactly. How do you have a relationship with something you don't know or understand? I mean. Right.

That's why when he said, if he kept telling the disciples, no, you don't understand. If you've seen me, you've seen the father. That's the idea. That was the revelation of him being here. And to your point, Zach, I agree with the idea of the resurrection. And you can't have a resurrection unless you have an incarnation. Unless he became flesh to then rise from the dead, you wouldn't have that deliberate. So when you see the story of Jesus, and especially what he came to accomplish,

that's why dad, you know, holds up the, you know, hieroglyphics, we call him. All that is the process of him being here to show us who the father is. You are correct. And that's his point. You know, Larry made a statement at the first of his sermon, which we didn't talk about at all in the podcast. And I love this because I've said it myself many times. I've never heard anybody else say it, though. He said, in heaven now, there's a human being who is outside of time and space.

And that's never happened before Jesus. Well, that's my whole point out. Which I think is very, very powerful. Yeah, if that didn't happen, well, how are we going to get there? Yeah. You're not, let's just... Exactly. That's what.

He showed you... If only for this life, we have hope in Christ. We're to be pitied more than all men. Yeah. Basically, he showed us the way. It all comes down to that resurrection. The return of God and the resurrection. And the Holy Spirit, because when you read Romans 8 and says the same Holy Spirit

that resurrected Jesus from the dead, if it's living in you, will give life to your mortal bodies. I did not. As I got into this, it was just funny. I went back and pulled out all my books like this, which I won't even read the title of it because you'll make fun of me. But I went back and started reading through stuff. And I was like, man, it's funny how when we get into a deep study on the Trinity, all roads lead to the resurrection. And which, Phil, I mean, if I said, what is, Phil, when you're dead and gone,

And people say, what did he stand for? Where did he put his flag in the sand? I'm going to say, he put his flag in the sand at the resurrection of Jesus. I mean, it is this centerpiece. If the dead are not raised, if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile. You are still in your sins.

Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ, they're lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we're to be pitted more than all men. He has indeed been raised from the dead the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. You say, what are you trying to say? That's who Jesus is. He has the power to do that. The Father sent him, he's God, 100% and he's 100% man, and I'm glad he's 100% of each.

No, you're right. That's why I think when you read that Hebrews 1, 10, 11, that was a really, that was a really good reference, or maybe even 9. I mean, I'd like to read it again, just because he says, in putting, or the second part of 8, in putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present, we do not see everything subject to him. but we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

I mean, he became a human. You got it. So in bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. There's the two combinations of what he did of God. You are correct. And man, he suffered.

That's all you need to know, Jay. Let me read the last verse. Both the one who makes men holy, so Jesus, and those who are made holy are of the same family because he became a man. So Jesus is not a shame to call them brothers. So what's fascinating about this, he is the son of God, but he's also a brother because he became a man. Yep. I mean.

Where did you start? What verse did you start with? Hebrew's one, second part of six through 11. Yeah, I was wanting to say that the other day, but I waited. I just waited. I think that was, well, that's why I read 14, though, because then it explains, well, since the children have flesh and blood, he shared their humanity. I mean, you know, you could just keep going. But think about this, what you just read, this is what's interesting.

If you back up one verse, one verse, what is it? It's a reference to Psalms 2. That's my point. It's the same reference. He says, to which of the angels did he ever say, you are my son? Today I have begotten you. That is the Psalms 2 reference. And again, I will be a father to him and he shall be a son to me.

And when he again brings the first born into the world, he says, and let all the angels of God worship him. But this is a, he is talking about the full gospel, meaning the death, the barrel, and the resurrection. This is accomplished at the resurrection. That's why he says, right before this in verse 1 through 4, he says, God, after he spoke long ago to the fathers and the prophets in many portions and in many ways. So you can't really go to the Old Testament to get the full picture. You got to get the full picture in the New Testament when he says in these last. days, he has spoken to us in his son, whom he appointed heir of all things, when did he do

that, through whom also he made the world, and he is the radiance of the glory in the exact representation of his nature, and upholds all things by the word of his power. When he had made purifications for sin, this is the cross, he sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high. That's the resurrection, having become as much better than the angel. as he has inherited a more excellent name than they. He's talking about post-res resurrected Jesus here. Then he moves into the messianic prophecy from Psalms 2, which is, again, I think he's talking about post-reserrected Jesus

when he's talking in Psalms 2. I do think there's an element of an eternally begotten son, but I think that the Psalms 2 reference is talking about post-resorated Jesus, And if that's the case, then you got, what do you do with all the other son of God references that happened before he was resurrected? That's why the death of Jesus, his burial and his resurrection, when someone challenged you and says, what I want to hear the deeper things of the Bible. I said, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus is as deep as you need to dig. And it's as deep.

It'll make your head spin around. But I keep going back. The only thing I'm pushing back on a little bit. is, I think when that Holy Spirit descended on Jesus, you know, at his, when he was baptized, there's a significance there because he then let a perfect life, but he had led a perfect life up until that time. He then begins this ministry and shows these displays, you know, through the Spirit that he's the Son of God. Power. And then he, when he dies, well, that's God's justice being demonstrated, that we're all now qualified,

because we've been purified because of that death on a cross, to receive God's spirit. So, look, I'm with you on the resurrection, but the resurrection took place because the spirit of God raised him up. Yeah. So you have to back up. And when you see that it was received, it was then lived out a perfect life, became a sacrifice, which made the spirit available from God's perspective to us. We then receive God's spirit, the spirit of sonship, and you are resurrected. I mean, it's hard to take it and pick out a moment of time when you have a whole process that had to be given,

is what I'm pushing back on a little bit. Yes, I mean, I'm in agreement, but I think it was the whole process. If you didn't have the spirit, nothing happens. You're standing there's no ministry. There's no resurrection that that spirit had to, you know, it howls him before this begins, which led to the resurrection. So I just wanted to like to add. So I got one more, and we won't have time to discuss it,

which is why it's good we have overtime. Not only did the Holy Spirit come down on Jesus when he began his ministry, when he got baptized, but guess who was the one that caused the cells to join together in the womb of Mary? I like where you're going with this, see. The Holy Spirit. Is that the same spirit that was hovering over the waters? That's the same one. He said he's still hovering over the waters, people.

Well, yeah, and you read John. So you think about that in relationship to a father, the Holy Spirit, in essence, was presenting the role of father by the beginning of life of Jesus' human form in Mary's womb. Yeah, which is my whole point. I think, I think you're right, though, Jace. I mean, I— By the way, no one's ever—no one's ever pulled that all about. Never been done before. Never been done before and never be done again. But I think that they're in the New Testament in Jesus, in Jesus in the incarnation, this father, son and spirit is being revealed.

To your point, Jason, yeah, I haven't talked a whole lot about the spirit in this. But yeah, I mean, he was there the entire time as well. Well, that's where I was going. I know we're out of time, but that's where I was going with that, is that that's the complexity of this, because it is all working together. God is a Trinity that works together. And when you start trying to divide it up, it becomes complex. And so I was just- So hang on.

Hang on, hang on, say, hold that thought, because we didn't give you time last time, but we are going to let you begin this time. So we're going to take this over and overtime. This one discussion from the last one led to a whole new podcast. If you want to follow us over to hear Zach's scintillating response, follow us over to overtime BlazTV.com slash

Unashamed for our overtime segment. We'll see you there. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click that little bell to get notified about new episodes. And for even more content that you won't get anywhere else,

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