Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 724 | The Robertsons Prep for the Apocalypse, Demonic Possession & Does the Devil Really Exist?

Episode Date: July 27, 2023

Jase thinks one of the things Missy loves about him is that he’ll be useful during an apocalypse. Phil and the guys invite Joe Beam, author of “Seeing the Unseen” and spiritual warfare scholar, to talk about the passage in Luke where Jesus casts thousands of demons out of one man. Phil reads about the “father of lies,” and Joe reveals the difference between demonic possession and manipulation, how the definition of “demon” has changed over time, and the myriad ways Satan works in societies. Check out Joe's Marriage Helper program at http://marriagehelper.com! In this episode: Luke 8, verses 26-39; John 8, verses 38-44; Ephesians 4, verses 17-19 — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. We're super excited today. I got a guest coming on later that we love and adore. But I have to ask you, Jay, so you've been talking on the last couple of podcasts about being a bachelor. So did your wife ever make it home? No, but this is. I'm waiting on the edge of my seat to find out. This is arrival day. So she's coming. She called me last night. We actually feel this will be a, this will be funny for you.

We talked one hour on the phone last night. Yeah, that's funny for me, all right. I've never done that. I'm just saying, if you've been married almost 33 years and you talk for an hour, you know, that's a good sign. That's a good sign. You just like flirting with me. It means you're missing her, too. Oh, we're missing each other.

And what I just confessed, I was like, babe, she's like, how's it going? And I'm like, I don't even know. I can't remember. I can't keep up with anything. I'm a disaster. I left my Bible. I told her that story. And she was actually having dinner with our two sons and, you know, my oldest son's wife and my younger son's got a girlfriend.

And there was some, some. high level celebrities that I'm not going to mention that like just came by and they had a conversation. Well, it was like we keep saying this poor girl this date in my son. She's like, what in the world is going on here? You know, because the first time I met her, we were at the award show. Right. And so it's like I'm hoping I'm not hurting the chances with my son to find a girlfriend because it's like this is too high profile. It's an illusion.

It just so happens every time she's around us. It's a crazy environment. And we're just normal people. I think she's not believing your normal people anymore. Yeah, so anyway, it's a good day. It lifted my morale. I miss my wife. So was it a flirty conversation?

It was. I mean, not to get too much into your business, but. Yeah, I think it's a good sign. I actually hung up and thought, you know, this is a good sign. And if you're still being romantic after 33 years. That's a good sign. Yeah, I just thought you'd get a kick out of that, Phil. Yeah.

Well, and that's like, you know, so we're back and forth a lot to Gulf Shores, and people are like, why do you keep going down there? It's like, because that's where my woman wants to be. She loves selling real estate. She wants to be down there. And so I'm like you, I don't function well. It's not like I can't go into the where we're going to live in separate houses and just meet every once a while. It's like, it's functionality.

is a big part of the situation. I'm with you 100%. Dad, you told us. You said, boys, never leave, never leave without your woman in your Bible. That was one of your parting words of advice when we got married. It's been pretty good.

It's held up pretty well. And grandkids give you, especially when they're young, it just changes your perspective. I mean, my wife, she's just a trip. I mean, she's just pouring into those grandkids. And it's difficult, you know, having a young baby, but when you have two that are literally almost nine months apart,

I mean, that's a handful. Yeah. So she just wants to help out. Right. Well, and you miss them. I mean, like being a part of them, they do so many different things. You want to be a part of that. So we've had the pleasure of being around ours most of the time, which has been good.

Well, good. Well, I'm glad you said you were going to frog gun. You're not going to do that right when she gets back, huh? I am doing that tonight, but I cleared that. Because that's a little bit of a faux pie if you have all the anticipation. There's like, oh, by the way, I'll see you at 3 a.m. Well, and I was mindful of that. And so I brought it up, but you got to realize, you know, I've explained many times all the differences in our relationship.

And if you have the big things in common, obviously Jesus and a love for your children. And remember the list, the infamous. list the last time she was on here when she brought out the 10 things we have in common. And it was actually, she kind of convicted me. I was like, yeah, I need to be more positive and open. She won that. You had set on record for quite a while that the only thing you and her have in common is Jesus. Yeah, and she took issue with that. And she obliterated me and kind of blindsided me in that. But I'm thankful for it now. Sometimes you've got to be called out. But what I was going to say is, you know, my wife, she goes to bed at 9 o'clock.

I mean, I go to bed at way after that, no matter what. And so it actually doesn't affect anything because really frog hunting gets going good about 930. Right. Because you got to wait until it gets to arc. I mean, yeah, it's like, so I'll be catching some frogs tonight. First time this year, you know, they came. But you will be bringing the bounty. to the reunion because you're bringing the fresh frog legs.

She's excited about it. Oh, there's nothing better. There's nothing better. I hadn't had a good frog leg in years. I mean, that's... Most of our audience probably is they're not tuned in. How many frogs did you catch last night? There's a few that are because there's some people in South Louisiana that listen

this podcast. I guarantee you they know about frogs. But here's the deal. Me kind of bringing that up in the conversation the day she's coming home. I could tell I scored a lot of points. Oh, yeah. Because I was like, look. I said, when are you coming home?

And she's like, well, I'm coming home tomorrow, which is today. And I was like, well, I had me a frog hunt schedule. But obviously, you know, it's not like a check with you situation, but it's just like I had that on the schedule because I wasn't sure when she's coming home. Well, we have established. Well, she said that's perfect because, you know, you'll leave and I'll be, I'm asleep.

So I was like, oh, this is fantastic. Jason has already established on a podcast that his, he and everybody's relationship is different. But in their relationship, part of going out and catching crappie or frogs or delicious wild game, in his marriage, they call that foreplay. So just, I mean, right? I mean, that's, you've established that. I've been trying to say there is a lot of women out there. who appreciate a guy that can provide, especially in wilderness settings. Because everybody in their back of their mind, they're like,

what happens if, you know, the equivalent of the zombie apocalypse does happen? Yeah. And what do we do? Well, she has some security in that. All right. She's like, this guy will go into places that humans don't roam, and he will find a way to find something to eat and provide. So, look.

It's a family plan. We're all coming down here. We're surrounding about three sides of water. If it's the zombies, they can't get across the water. I mean, really, it just, it's, we were organic before that became something cool. Yeah, we started organic. Yeah, I've been watching chicken in the yard. This is kind of how you function.

So, uh, we're in Luke 8 is we're going to be today in our text. And we've, we talked about in the early part of this about the parable of sewer and the soils. We, when we got into that. We also had this situation with. Jesus' earthly family. They were still in the dark, you know, on who he was and where he was. In the last podcast, we talked about him displaying this authority over the storm and the nature and even then, sometimes how they missed him.

And so he's crossing the lake to get to this other region that's kind of a more of a Greek region. And so I've been teasing that we're going to bring in a special guest who to us, in our opinion probably has written the best definitive book on spiritual warfare that's out there. It's called Seeing the Unseen Joe Beam. And so we're going to take a break. We come back on the other side of the break. Joe's going to be with us.

And we're going to talk about this text, but also just spiritual warfare in general and whatever else Joe wants to talk about. So let's take a break. So welcome, Joe Beam, one of our favorite guys to the unashamed pocket. We talked about you so much, Joe, that Jay's thought you'd already been on the podcast. Well, I had to remember the idea we were talking about spiritual warfare. We were both reading his book, rereading his book. And I talked about him so much that people were bumping into me.

And they were like, boy, I really appreciate you turning me on to Dr. Beam's book. So I just, I can't remember anything. My wife's been out of town. What can I say? So, Joe, welcome to Unashamed. Well, thank you. I really appreciate the invitation. Thank you very much.

So I have to say right off the bat, Joe, before we get into the spiritual warfare stuff, so you, we have, we're friends, we've met, we've done some ministry stuff together. So we have a close relationship with you and Miss Alice and your, and Kimberly, your youngest daughter. And you guys, without knowing it, like most people that put themselves out there and put their story out there, you had a huge impact on Lisa and I on our marriage. you had written a book. Of course, we were connected to Howard books because that's Corey's family. And then they eventually published all of our books, most of them as well, even after they got bought out. And so they published your stuff. And so we kind of knew about you through that,

because they used to be here in West Monroe. And whenever Lisa and I, our marriage was a wreck, Phyllis Boltinghouse, a mutual friend of ours, who was an editor there, she told Lisa and I both, she said, you have to read this book called Forgiven Forever. that Joe Beam wrote. And I think it's just what you guys need. And so at the time, I was so raw because we were split up, you know, we were just in crisis. And I couldn't read it at first.

You know, it was just too raw for me. But Lisa started reading it with some friends in a group. And it was life-changing. First for her, you know, just because of you being so open in there. And then later I did read it, cover to cover, coming back on a airplane from Germany. And it was other than the Bible. I tell people it's the most impactful book I've ever read. And so I just want to say that up front, that you've had a huge impact on us.

You and Alice allowed us to talk about your story in our last book, Desperate Forgiveness, which we appreciate. So before we get into the spiritual warfare stuff, what you do with marriage, and I want you to tell our folks a little bit about what you're doing, marriage helper is tremendous in helping a lot of marriage. So tell the folks a little bit about kind of what you do. you guys are doing now and a little bit about marriage helper. Okay, I'll give the brief version. We work mostly with marriages in crisis. We do it in a couple of three different ways. One is we do this intensive weekend that is amazing about what God does in those three days.

And we have seen so many marriages turn around. Our success rate, we've been doing that weekend since 1999. And typically about three out of four couples that go through there wind up turning their marriage around is saving the marriage. And what makes that really significant is that about nine out of ten couples that come through there, one of them is done. It's like this is over. We don't want this to last. Just, I'll go through this three days so my spouse will give me what I want and the divorce, and then I'm out of here. So it's a God thing, even though it's not a preaching event. It's a God thing, and it works extremely well. One of my psychiatrist friends, who as a Christian,

and said, Joe, I know it's from God. And I said, really, Charles, how do you know? He said, because you just aren't that smart, Joe. Well, I don't know. I might make to differ with that one. So it's marriage helper.com. I looked up the website last night. And I say that because we have a lot of young families and young couples that listen to the podcast.

I know a lot of them are in different varying degrees of struggle because we get emails from you guys. And so it's a great option. You need to check it out, especially to see what they offer. And we highly recommend it. We have sent several couples, Joe and Alice's way. And I think the reason it's so successful, Joe, in my opinion, is because you guys are so open about you've been there, you know. And it's the same thing. Obviously, Lisa and I are almost 25 years now, you know, removed from our sort of healing and recovery of our marriage that you guys helped us with.

And we're the same way. People are open to talk to us because we've been there. We understand what it is. We understand what it is to have infidelity. And so I think that's one of the key as well as just, you know, the people you have around are fantastic as well. So I highly recommend what Joe and Alice and Kimberly and those guys are doing. So that's why you were asking me about my marriage and all that. Yeah.

So we were talking about Jason, which you were listening to it, Joe. I don't know. That may be a whole case study. Well, it was. The last time I saw Jay's wife, she asked me for a new copy of seeing the unseen. So I'm not really sure exactly what was in her mind. I was probably to blame for that. But she did.

She was doing some kind of home Bible study group with some women. And she used your book. And she didn't realize that you had revised that. Which I was curious, when did you first write that book, seeing the unseen. Her expression came out in 1994. Okay. And then you revised it.

I guess the one she got you to sign. Around 2000. Was 2000? Yeah. 2000 something. Yeah. 2003, maybe, something like that. Did you do that just to think, oh, I've studied some more and I've come up with some

things I want to put in there? No, I did that because the publisher said you will do that. Because it needed a fresh coat of paint. That's why. Kind of like being married. So Joe, here's another little caveat that I've told you before that you didn't know. And so the publishers obviously being next door to the church back when the book was published. I was doing a lot of small group ministry back then.

And that's what I was mainly doing for White Street Road because I was kind of an associate. And so they said, we got this great book. Would you read it and then write some discussion questions for it? And I said, well, yeah, they said this Dr. Joe Beam. And this is all before, you know, we needed your other help from your other book. And I said, yeah, sure. And so I read it. And I was just so amazed.

It was so good and made me think in some directions I had never thought. And then I got to write some discussing questions that went at the end of the book. And so you never knew who did that. But I told you have told you since that that was me. So I kind of have a little small role in seeing the unseen. Yeah. No, that's cool. And I want to say, you know, a lot of times you may say, well,

you have a guest you're trying to promote this book we're talking about a book that he wrote over 20 years ago but i'm not a big book reader either but that is top three books that i've read that stopped me in my tracks and i've used countless uh you know thoughts and because really i like books that that make you think and uh there's no doubt there's a there's a spiritual war going on so it was really insightful and i appreciate your courage to you know to write it. Yeah, and 30 years ago, it was probably even more, it was pretty controversial. It was way more controversial than it would be today. I wish we would have known each other. Especially for all of us coming out of the heritage we came out of. I'm sure you got a lot of grief back in the day.

But I've learned just that that's not necessarily a bad thing, you know. I mean, we just read in Luke 6, you know, it's when he was giving you the blessing when people hate you and exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil because the because of the son of man so i'm actually this show to kind of get us going because we're eventually i want to get to this text which we're studying in luke eight but in the book it's kind of in the middle section so i want to kind of set a little bit of this up in terms of spiritual warfare first just for our audience's perspective why did you write seeing the unseen uh i mean what what what kind of motivated you to write a book about spiritual warfare? Well, actually, I had been in ministry for 15 years.

Alice and I had married when we were in college. And then 15 years into our ministry, I left Alice for another woman, obviously a very sinful relationship. When I often lived in a sinful relationship for three years, Alice not divorced. Finally, came to my senses, got to the bottom of the pig pen, I guess she'd say, and asked Alice if she'd take me back. And she did. So we remarried each other after three years of divorce.

And a couple of years into that, we remarried in 1997. So seven years after that in 1994 is when I finally wrote that book. And it was for me. I had made a list of 20-something questions thinking, okay, I take full responsibility for my actions. I made every decision. The devil didn't make me do anything. But I wonder if I had any help.

And so I wrote down those 20-something questions. and went looking for Bible answers. And those became the original chapters of the original book. So I wrote it for me. I wrote it for me trying to figure out, well, Paul said we're not ignorant of Satan's schemes. And I thought, well, Paul wasn't, but I sure was. And I wanted to know what they were if they came again. Well, and I think that's why it's so powerful.

I think because it was so personal because I'm reading it again right now. And it's been a few years since I've read it. And, you know, this, I don't remember specifically there's a part you talk about, which we'll talk about a little bit later, demonization versus demon possession. And, you know, just reading that again this time, all these years later, I can personalize so much mine and Lisa's struggles and her struggles and how this works, the demonic manipulation of a person. They're not necessarily possessed, but demons are definitely working on their lives.

So when I read that, I thought, man, it again brought it so clear. And so in my case, 25 years later, I can still crystal clear see the demonic work. And currently I'm working with a, we're working with a couple of couples where there's been an affair. And I see this same thing at work. I see the trap. I see the delusion. I see all of it. And so I really think it's interesting.

You told me one time that you wrote this book kind of on the, the publishers really wanted this book, but you wanted to write a book about forgiveness as well. And so you kind of got a two-book deal. And those are the two books that have impacted me so much. So it's kind of interesting how much they tie together. And I wanted you to tell that. So first, to begin with, I want to talk just a little bit about that before we get to this text. Because you talk about in the book out of Ephesians 418-19, the kind of the master strategy of what Satan does.

and kind of his, how he works against us. Can we talk a little bit about that? Because to me, that kind of sets the stage for what he's trying to do in Ephesians 4, 18, 19. And I'll read it. It says, what starts in verse 70. So I tell you this and insist on it in the Lord that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God

because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality as to indulge in every kind of impurity with a continual lust for more. So tell the odds a little bit, Joe, just how that kind of is the whole strategy sort of from the demonic side and what they're trying to do. I think it's pretty evident if you just listen to the news. It's what's happening here. The futility of their thinking, let's first of all confuse people and the way they think.

Because if we can confuse them about what's right and what's wrong, then darkening the understanding is not difficult to do. Right. Because now it's like what used to be wrong is right. What used to be right is now wrong. And in talking about darkening, it's like we are living in a situation now in the world and also in America, obviously, where that people have no concept of what's right or what's wrong. anymore and generally speaking in our population. And the agenda has been to make our thinking futile and to darken

understanding. And in my lifetime, it's been very clear. I'm sure Phil, I've seen it. You guys are even old enough to have seen it. Yeah. That the way that people think doesn't make sense anymore. And we have gotten to the point where that the only thing is right is what I want. Yeah.

Now, when you get to that, that futility, that what he says is. is, first of all, that darkness of their thinking. Basically, that phrase there is a phrase, you know, when we look for it, and as you guys know, because you're Bible students, when you find a phrase like that, you say, okay, what does it mean you look also in the writings of that same epistle? And you don't find it there. Then you look in the writings of Paul and you don't find it there. Then you look in the New Testament and you don't find it there. That phrase used again, so you wind up looking into classical Greek literature and literature of the day. And basically what he says is they're feeling no pain, having lost all sensitivity.

They're feeling no pain. And that's what we have done. Way back in the 70s, a book came out called Whatever Happened to Sin. And the guy who wrote it was a psychiatrist slash philosopher going blank on his name right now. Meninger maybe. He wrote that and said, what's happening is rather than telling people that, yes, guilt is telling you this wrong, you should stop it. We have moved over to telling them you shouldn't feel guilty about it because it's true for

you. And therefore, we're going to get it where they feel no pain. And now, if I walked into a room and saw somebody over there who had been drinking, for example, and I said, he's feeling no pain, we would all think that means he is now out of it. Yeah. You know, he has gotten to the point where he doesn't know how to feel anymore. And so not only can you do that to yourself from chemicals like alcohol, cocaine, etc, you can do that to yourself from just your emotions.

Yeah. To where you can become so hardened that your heart is so hard to anything but what you want that you really don't feel pain, which when I was in college back, you know, I went to college with Sigmund Freud and I'm not. When I was in college, we would say that that would be a sociopath, a person who feels no pain. when they heard other people and doesn't understand how the other people heard, well, we've become a sociopathic society. And the brilliance of that, if you think about it, it took years to get us where we are.

And it's affecting right down to children so that now they want to be confusing the children's thinking. Are you a boy? Are you a girl? Are you this? Are you that? And so that strategy listed in that passage is very applicable today. And that's why people wind up.

The continual loss for more is you finally don't have any genuine emotions left. All of us have been this artificial stuff by this or that or this other thing that I'm seeking. And because that's not fulfilling, I'll drink more or I'll fornicate more or I'll do more, whatever it is, trying to find, it's almost like chasing the high that the crack addict has. It gave me a high once. I'm still after it because the genuine emotions of love. and care, they're gone. And that person who buys into this stuff altogether because it's really become all about them.

So in my opinion, that passage is just true today as it ever was. Yeah, well said. And written 2,000 years ago, and yet you still see that cycle, as you mentioned it. And you're right, we're seeing it more. We've always seen it in individual lives. You know, someone you're working with,

someone's trying to come out of this terrible place they're in. But you're right, Joe. I think we're seeing now more of a cultural rot of this same mindset. And it's why people will say things you think. How could people get to this place in their thinking? And obviously, that explains why. I wanted to talk just a bit before we get to the demons, because you talk about, before you get there, you talk about angels. And obviously, their role.

And we see that a lot in scripture, their interaction with us, kind of, obviously, their heavenly. beings, but there have interaction with us here on earth. And Satan being a fallen angel, somewhere along the way, a mindset came in where people thought that demons were actually fallen angels that live in people. And you talk about this a lot in the book, which you don't believe that's true, and I don't either. Can you talk a little bit about that? So it's just kind of that transition, because we're going to get into this guy that's got all the demons in him. But before that, Kind of explain where that thought came from and why you don't think that's true, why demons are something else. The thought that the angels or bad angels were demons is actually a relatively late thought.

Because back in the time that Jesus lived, people, the word demon or sometimes evil spirit, as we would see it, would be considered to be the soul of a dead person. And even the philosophers would write about those. And so the daemones would sometimes be what they were considered to be good. And the daemones would sometimes consider what they would be to be evil, but they saw it as the dead. And so in the time of Jesus, that was the common understanding. There's an interesting lecture by Alexander Campbell back in the 1800s. He has a book called A Book of Lectures or something like that.

It's still available in Christian libraries, interestingly. If you're going to read Campbell, get you a dictionary because he uses words that are that long. I know a guy like that. Campbell pointed out that during the time of Jesus, neither he nor his apostles ever corrected the common concept of what demons were, which were the souls of dead people. And when you start looking at the way they operate, they hung out in cemeteries. They wanted to be in a body, the story you're about to look at. For example, if I can't be in a human body, don't just put me out there, put me in a different kind of body. they had extra knowledge more than human beings had,

but we'll talk about that later. And when they took over a body, they often would punish the body. They would hurt it, and they would throw it into the fire, those kinds of things. So they wanted in a body, but they resented the body that they were in.

And when he was going to kick him out, for example, of the demoniac that had the thousands in there, of the legion, then they wanted, as I just said, I mean, redundant now, they wanted to go into a body. If they were angels, they could have just left on where they wanted to go. We vision angels as flying because they can move from one place to the other without us understanding how they do it. But these guys didn't have a way to do that. And so they wanted into another body.

And so if you go back and look at the time, that's what everybody considered demon to be. never contradicted by Scripture and understand their actions and behaviors how they operate it. Now, I realized then, though, that some people will say, but wait a minute, what about that story in Luke, where it says that the rich man and Lazarus and the rich man went over into punishment, and it says that you couldn't go between the two. Therefore, it means they can't come back to Earth.

And my point is, no, it doesn't say they can't come back to Earth. it says they can't go back and forth between the two. Because there are examples of people from the paradise side of that who did come back to Earth, including the day that Jesus was crucified when the hundreds came back and took up their bodies. And so saying that because they can't go back and forth between those two states of paradise and punishment means they can't come to Earth can't be proven by that passage. So my understanding is, and Campbell argues it much better if you want to go. find that article by him, that it is the souls of dead, wicked, dead people that for whatever

reason are not yet in hell. Right. Which makes it interesting because we don't know why, but you're right. There's plenty of biblical evidence. You gave some. Another story that you tell that we've mentioned on the podcast before is the story of Saul summoning Samuel to come back, which he does and predicts what's going to happen. And so to your point about supernatural knowledge, I love one of the thoughts that you gave.

It was real simple and practical that people don't think about. Why would an angel limit themselves into a possession situation when they're much more powerful than that? And again, these are from biblical evidence, it's everywhere. Read the book of Hebrews and you can see how powerful angels are. So they're not angels. The only possible text that you gave, and it's probably a take is when, say, Satan that says that Satan entered Judas. And I think that was probably talking more about the idea of evil that it entered him instead of actual Satan himself.

But even if that's the case, that's the only time you ever see that in any scripture. Just a thought here. I think probably we don't use it enough in that John chapter 8. other words Jesus reminds them the people verse 38 I'm telling you what I've seen in the father's presence and you do what you have heard from your father if you were Abraham's children you would do the things Abraham did

as it is you're you're trying to kill me a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God Abraham did not do such things. You're doing the things your own father does. They said, came back, and they said, we're not illegitimate children. They protested. The only father we have is God himself.

Back to Jesus. Jesus in verse 42. If God were your father, you would love me. For I came from God and now I'm here. I've not come on my own, but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You, he gives him the reason, the power behind them.

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there's no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language. He's a liar and the father of lies. He said the father of lies and the father of murder. And our culture has jumped on his wagon and can't figure out what's happened to us. I mean, there is serious power going on struggle

because I tell you, can any of you prove me of guilty of sin? That was one of the questions. He said, what about? By sin? Well, name of the sins. I'm telling you about your ears. You tell me. If I'm telling the truth, why don't you believe me?

He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God. It's a pretty powerful text, and it helped me out a lot to say how organized murder and hatred and all of that. And it helped me see how powerful it all is. So I just thought I'd throw that in there in lieu of all of what we're talking about here. No, and I think that's important, Dad, because that gives you this kind of hierarchy structure concept that Joe talks about a lot in the book. And, of course, that begins with satanic and thoughts of the devil,

who is a real being, an angel himself, but then how that relates to it. You made a statement in the book, Joe, that I thought was really powerful. You said it's less about demon possession than it is demon manipulation when you think about what Satan does. And that's kind of what Dad's describing. I mean, just the chaos of sin and what it happens, both in an individual's life but also in a culture. Absolutely. Primary tool is not possession. The primary tool is deception.

And that is absolutely true. I wanted to jump in and say, yeah, I think most people in a practical light tend to think of one extreme or the other. You know, there's no evil beings, you know, or he's around every corner, you know, at the grocery store. And just from my experience, because people, I think, are scared of this idea. And really, all they think about is Hollywood movies when it comes to this kind of stuff. Because you're literally reading Luke, and all of a sudden, a horror film breaks out here. I mean, like, if you put this on a screen, it would not, it would, it would seem supernatural. I mean, you have a guy who's chained up, who's, there's not just one demon.

He's in the cemetery. Then he's, the demons are like trying to kind of exercise Jesus. Really, they were calling on the Lord. Jesus does an exorcism, which I think is the only person, movie or biblically or even in our imagination, historically, that didn't call on a higher power. Because he was the higher. Well, he was. I think it's an interesting point, which gives me comfort.

But my point I was getting at, you know, I always come up with a system of trying to explain why bad things happen. and why the world is it is the way it is. And I always say, you know, your sin contributes. Everybody's sin or somebody else's sin causes consequences. And then that number three, I always say, because we live in a world where there's supernatural forces of evil at work against God. And so one of those three categories, we can kind of trace back to the root of problems and pain. And so I was just trying to get your thoughts on how, how do you approach people?

Because I think the overwhelming majority of humans look at this as just something that the writers made up, sort of like a Hollywood movie when they get to these sections. They're like, I mean, are you really claiming to believe this happened on the planet one day? So I was just wondering what she thought in a practical sense to that. because I do think that's the majority of view as far as humans. There was a Bible professor that I knew teaching in a Christian university who taught that the devil does not exist and that all this stuff was made up by the New Testament writers to give people a sense of dignity when they did wrong. Well, I don't have that view. I believe these beings really exist.

On the other hand, I don't think they're around every corner. Speaking at a big workshop in Tulsa, once this guy walked up and said, on the way down, this turretsy, turkey flew out in front of us. We hit it and almost crashed the car. Was that a good angel trying to keep us from some terrible thing down the road? Or was that a bad demon trying to kill us? To which I replied, have you considered the possibility? It was a turkey. To which he said, man, that's deep. That is so deep. So I don't think there's a demon around every bush. It still comes back. Either way, to what. what Alan read earlier out of Ephesians 4. If we can mess with your thinking, if we can get you to be futile, then we'll darken your understanding. If we can darken your understanding, then we can harden your heart. And so I tell people, people sometimes say, I don't know if that's from God or from

Satan or whatever. My response says, look, it's your decision what you're going to do with every situation, whether it's pain, whether it's temptation, whatever what it is. And if you want to of what God's view is, and there's your book right there. And no matter what, they can't make you lose your faith, but they can guide you along a path where you would lose your faith. And so it's still back to what will you do, what will you decide, what will you believe, what will you hang on to? Because that's where it all starts. The battle is in the mind, because that's what leads to faith or lack of faith, sin, or righteousness, et cetera. You guys think I'm off path when I say that?

No, I do not. And that's why I ask, just because I know a lot of people quickly dismiss this. And I was, you know, early in my faith, I was scared to read passages like this in Luke 8 because it just seemed a little far-fetched. As a young Christian, I just thought, what is, how do I? you know, I was more looking at the Bible as a rule book, I guess, because I was immature in my faith. I mean, I finally got to the point where I'm like, oh, this is revealing Jesus in a way that, you know, he's pretty much the answer to everything. And but, and I really see that here that that's why I brought that point up about he has the power, which gives me great comfort.

I mean, because now I read it thinking, well, no matter if I can understand the details or not, I know that Jesus, has so much power that he seemed to do this with ease. I mean, the demons, they knew who he was, whatever he said, went. I mean, he just was in such control that it gave me comfort in that. So with that, I wanted just to kind of give the overview of it, and maybe you can help us through this, you know, on why that's here. what we can draw from it. You may to do that.

So he sails to a kind of a Gentile region and across from the lake in Galilee. And Jesus stepped ashore and there was a demon-possessed man, you know, from the town. For a long time he had not worn clothes, lived in a house, had lived in the tombs. He saw Jesus and cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice. what do you want with me Jesus son of the most high god i beg you don't torture me for jesus had commanded the evil spirit to come out of the man many times it had seized him and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places jesus asked him what is your name and then it's you know in whatever demon voice you want to

Legion, he replied. Maybe it was the man's voice. I was just, this is where it kind of turns into a horror movie. Because many demons had gone into him. And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the abyss. A large herd of pigs was feeding on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus, which there's a lot of begging going on, by the way, in this story, to let them go into them, and he gave them permission.

When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, the herd rushed down the steep bank, they fell into the lake, they were drowned, and when those tending the pigs saw what had happened, they ran off and reported in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. When they came to Jesus, they found the man from whom the demons had gone out, sitting at Jesus' feet, dressed and in his right mind, and they were afraid. Those who had seen it told the people how the demon people, man had been cured, then all the people of the region asked Jesus to leave them because they were overcome with fear. So he got into the boat and left. The man from whom the demons had gone out,

and here's another begging, begged to go with him. But Jesus sent him away, saying, return to your home and tell how much God has done for you. So the man went away and told all over the town how much Jesus had done for him. So, I mean, so much stuff here. And obviously, we don't have near enough time to break it down the way we'd like to. But you mentioned a few of the things, Joe, that you mentioned in your book. Demons can obviously inhabit bodies and prefer it, both human and animal, because we see both here. They ask Jesus not to torture them by forcing them to leave this body.

So somehow they see that as torture. They ask not to be thrown into the abyss, which that's the whole other topic. And you mentioned in your book, Romans 107, this idea of some place. They were numbered in the thousands because Legion means three to six thousand soldiers. And so we assume that he was based not off of a, we know there was at least 2,000, right? Yeah, there was 2,000 pigs. Right. They harmed the body that they inhabited, which you mentioned earlier.

And there's another case of that, Matthew 17, where it's throwing this kid in the fire. They kept the man in the tombs. They seemed to feel comfortable there around dead people. And then they possess supernatural knowledge. things you all mentioned in your book that we just sort of see from this story. So, yeah, I'm like, Jay's, so how does this fit into sort of how we view demons and what they're trying to accomplish and, you know, out of this story. Oh, by the way, you can answer that. They didn't know how to drive pigs right off the wood. That's a good point.

The, a missionary once I was working with in West Africa, I was over there a few years ago, talking about spiritual warfare. And they were telling me stories that they made me promise I wouldn't tell when I came back to the States for fear that they would lose their support because they were afraid that the American churches would hear those stories as wild and et cetera and that they would lose their support. And so I have not told those stories as they've asked. Now, again, I didn't witness them. I did hear them from the missionaries.

But one of them did make this statement, which I thought was very interesting. He said, if you were the devil, and by the way, I'm not. I don't care what they say on the internet. He said, if you were the devil and you were operating in a country where people had no doubt that you existed, what would you hide? He said, you would do all kinds of things visibly. But if you were a devil or the devil and your forces were operating in a country where people believe you don't exist, then wouldn't you take a different approach? You would do it more subtly so people would not have the proof that you exist, but you would still be demonstrating your power.

Now, that was the missionary's view of the way that devil's forces operate in America. They don't do it the same way they do in third world countries, because in third world countries, they have nothing to hide. But here, then they need to be more subtle for fear that actually we would think they do exist. and so I don't see the kinds of things here that I've heard about in Africa. Yet sometimes I do wonder. Some of the things that we see people do, a quick example, I've only known one serial killer. Of course, we didn't know he was a serial killer at the time.

He would go off to nearby cities, pick up these little magazines where things were advertised by people. You know, I want it kind of things. call, as a teenage girl, answered, he would, using his charisma, persuade that he should come by and see the thing even though nobody was there. He would kidnap the girl, et cetera, et cetera. Well, I knew him, very charming guy. Finally, when he was caught and for murder, all those kinds of things put on trial, he degenerated into almost like an animal. He would be in a fetal position on the floor, even under the courtroom. room and made no sense whatsoever.

Now, could that have been an act? Yes. Could it have been mental illness? Yes. Could it be that what was driving that man was an evil being residing inside of him? Well, I think, yes, I think that's a possibility. I don't know. I think there are some situations that medical science is never going to cure and that

psychiatric science is never going to cure. There are some things that are associated with spiritual. that only spiritual things can care. No, I think you're on base, Joe, and you have a vast education in all the other stuff. So you have a vantage point to view both, both from the spiritual side and what you know of the text and your experiences as well as what you know

from what people teach. And so I think that does give you a strong voice. Have you seen the movie Nefarious that's out? It's a new movie. So you need to see it. It's a lot what you just described. A friend of ours that's on a blaze host did the movie, but it's about a demon named nefarious, and it's really interesting. So we've been talking about a lot on here.

Unfortunately, the fastest podcast ever. We're out of time for our regular podcast. But Joe, I want to, we have what we call an overtime segment, and I would love to carry you over if you could stay with us a few more minutes. And I do want to talk about this idea. the one of the things that really intrigued me was, one, is people always ask, which you sort of alluded to it, or people still possessed today. And then also the idea of the difference between demon possession, which we see in our story, and this idea of demonization, because that's a really, that's a say point that I think a lot of people will see practically. So thank you so much for coming on Unashamed podcast. Not everybody comes to overtime, so I wanted to thank you here.

When our folks found out I was being invited on, they can't. up with some special things about marriage if your folks want it for free. It's at marriage helper.com slash unashamed. Oh, awesome. That's great. So definitely check that out. As well as Joe's books that we've mentioned, getting past guilt is the book I mentioned earlier that impacted at least not so much and seeing the unseen. There are also becoming one, a lot of other great books too. So check out everything that Joe has to offer. And we'll see those you guys that want to follow us over to overtime to hear a little bit more from him about this idea of demon possession, demonization, blazedtv.com slash unashamed.

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