Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 734 | Phil’s Message for ‘Enemies of the Cross’ & Jase’s Impression of the Sleepy Disciples

Episode Date: August 14, 2023

Phil identifies the “enemies of the cross” and ominously predicts what will happen to them at the end of days. Jase can’t believe the poor behavior of the disciples at a momentous Biblical event, and his impersonation of them cracks up the guys. Zach reveals the arguments that usually don’t work for converting people and the one that works every time, in its own time. The guys discuss Abraham’s covenant with God from the book of Genesis and how it relates to the misconceptions of the Kingdom that threw Jesus’ contemporaries for a loop.  In this episode: Luke 9, verses 28-36; Philippians 3, verse 18; Romans 1, verse 16; Genesis chapter 15 — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? So we're back with the unashamed crew. Zach's still with us. Hello, Zay. Two in a row. Two in a row. Three in a row. There's three podcasts in a row.

Well, two days in a row. There's three podcasts in row. That's right. Yeah. You're back in. I'm here to stay. I'm here to stay. I told Zaz said before we got started that because we've been doing a lot of podcasts, Jay said a lot of travel coming up.

And so we've been kind of burning the midnight oil, as they say, getting our podcast in. And we're like day old bread. We got old fresh Zach coming in from North Carolina. He's like a fresh bakery of idea. Right, Zach? Yeah. Well, I said I wanted to revisit the Transfiguration, but you guys have been hitting on it for six episodes. It's such a good.

It's hard to leave. I get it. It's good. Yeah. I think this section of Luke, though, is just a, it's a, it's a, really profound, you're realizing. Well, Dad's been alluding to it for a while. It is the pivotal point of going forward in the book, which, you know, we were talking

a little bit about this on the last podcast of a Bowles, but just about having the scriptures and what they mean, because we were talking about a lot of antiquities and writings, and because we got into Josephus. But, you know, you think about how blessed we are to have this physician. Luke, this early follower that took it upon himself, you know, again, empowered by the spirit, I get it. But, I mean, to write this book and also the book of Acts, which you take those two together and you think about what we know about the early church and Jesus and what he did in his mission.

I mean, like, you know, we always talk about John because Jay's and I both love the book of John. But if you had to take something to describe the whole 30-year period of how it got cranked Luke and Acts is pretty much it. I mean, Luke did us a great service by, you know, following the Holy Spirit's lead to write these books for sure. What's the text? What's the text, the enemies of the cross?

What verse is that? They are enemies of the cross. Is that in Corinthians? Yeah. He finally identifies, the son of man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, And this is a wide swath of modern day people under law, chief priests and teachers of the law.

He, in their minds, he must be killed on the third day be raised alive. Philippians 3A. Philippians 3A. Describe them as enemies of the cross, which is a pretty blunt way of describing the people you're up against. and then they're all on top of that mountain talking it over. You know, I don't know how that conversation went. You know, it was, but everybody up there started glowing. So I don't know.

It was a big event, real big. So Philippine's 318, Dad, for as I've often told you before, and I say again, even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross. Well, that was early on, even pre-19. pre-death on the cross, burial, and resurrection. That was the enemies, but they were just bluntly identified here. What a category.

That's a pretty big swath of his, here's what we're up against here. What a category to be in. An enemy of the cross. Yeah. It also says their mind is on earthly things. Yeah. Their destiny is destruction.

You know, they're driven by the desires of the flesh, you know, because they're stomachs, is there. Yeah. What he's saying is these people, you know, they're winning some, but they're not, the people, the lawkeepers are not on their side.

No. At this point in Jesus' stay on planet Earth. They were not on members of his crowd. They were against him. Right. And if you think about it, I guess there was a small, small chance that this thing may not work. But it did work.

You said this before, and we have to keep bringing it up on the podcast, because when you have a narrative in your mind of how something is supposed to go. And then when it actually begins to happen and it doesn't fit the narrative you've always thought it was going to be, then you have a hard time embracing it. And that's what was happening, even with Jesus' supporters, because they had it in their mind, it was going to go a certain way. but then Jesus didn't fit that what their bill was of the Messiah. So they were having a hard time embracing it, you know?

And then when he tells him he has to die, it just blows their mind because they're like, well, that'll be all of that. Yeah. What do you think they thought in Mark 9 when Jesus said right before the transfiguration, six days before the transfiguration? He says, I tell you the truth. Some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power. What do you think that they thought when he said that? What was there?

What are your thoughts on that? I mean, I think they had no idea. I mean, I think they thought he meant that in our lifetime, we're going to be, we're going to see this restoration of Israel, and we're going to be in charge. And I think they thought, this is it. This is what we've been talking about. But they weren't all in. You're exactly right. You get over there, and right there when Jesus was crucified, a lot of them hit the road, and the rest of them, they just didn't get it. Right. That you could win by dying because they always thought you need to live on. Right.

But he's going to do it on the other side. I can almost promise you. His death on a cross is going to bring it all together, but you wouldn't think. I can almost promise you what they didn't think was he would die and then we would all die in a similar way. to usher in the kingdom of heaven. That's probably not what they were thinking. No, I think that's why they probably thought when he said, and I'll come back to life three days later,

they were probably thinking in some kind of spiritual, you know, spiritual way, but the kingdom would already have been established, we'll be in control. We'll be on our thrones, you know. Yeah, he's going to, he's going to, you know, it's kind of like the guy's like, I'll die for you. you know, tells his wife that and then three weeks later they file for divorce, you know.

Yeah. So what happened to this? You're going to die for me. You know, I mean, it's just, it's something that I think they didn't understand, so they, therefore, dismiss. Because they're still talking about same chapter, who's going to be the greatest and where we're going to sit at the head of the new throne. Yeah. And it was a struggle. There's a lot of times when I talk to men's groups, Jason, we're talking marriage.

and they'll split us up, you know. So I got the men, Lisa's got the women. And I love to set them up. And I say, how many of you in here? And I usually tell a story first about someone that went to bat for their wife and put their life on the line.

I said, how many of you in here would die for your wife and your family? Of course, you know, almost every hand goes up. And then so, man, that's awesome. But how many of you would do it every day? Because that's really what we're talking about here. The one chance of, somewhere down the line of you having to give your life of your family, that may or may not happen.

I'm glad you're willing to make that sacrifice. But are you willing to die for her and them every day? Because when you talk about what Jesus talked about back here in Luke, it's a daily death, right? I mean, that's what carrying your cross means. I mean, it's actually true. Anybody's done a lot of listening to, you know, a married couple that seems to have lost their way.

it's the exact same principle you see here because I always give the same advice. Stop talking and start listening. Stop talking because it's the same. Everything that happens is just a narrative to then continue the conversation of, you know, from the woman's perspective, it's all his fault.

Now I'm talking about, you know, marriage has really been, they lost their way for years, you know. And then when you get to the woman, he's like, well, it's all his fault. He's like, well, it's all her fault. And no matter what is said, everything that happens is put into that narrative. And I see a similar thing here where once they made up their mind on what the new kingdom was going to look like,

they weren't listening to what Jesus was describing. They just weren't, there's no other. Yeah. There's no other. And even when they were quiet, they weren't listening because they didn't understand. Remember it says they didn't understand what he was saying? Well, now it does. the message, we talked about this, Zach, before you came back,

but it was hidden from them. It said many times in either Mark, Matthew, even John or, you know, or Luke's account here, it was hidden from their understanding. Now, the reason for that might have been just because they'd have this narrative, yeah, or it could be the evil one, you know, in Matthews account. This is right in the same time period when, it says uh you know jesus said get behind me satan he told that to peter when he was i mean that was

right after he said you're the christ the son of the living god that's right and then a paragraph later jesus is calling him satan yeah so that's a good point because you know bowles made the point on the last podcast that on the road to amas the scriptures john says i guess or is it luke it's luke 24 yeah luke says that he opened their minds minds so that they could understand the scripture. Maybe when he was sharing with him, you know, when he was having the meal with him. So maybe you're right, Jess. There may be something more to that than just their own following of the narrative.

I don't know. It's a hard thing to explain. I think, you know. Yeah, I think when you, when you try to wrap your mind, your earthly mind, that's not, you know, something that, where the spirit hasn't revealed it to you, you try to wrap your mind around a God who would. incarnate. I mean, that that itself is kind of a hidden idea just because it's so

bizarre, you know, you think about, but you look at the narrative here at the Transfiguration. You know, Mark's account, it's directly after that is when he says, the son of man must be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill him, and after three days he will rise. So he starts out with this picture of power, at least how they would perceive power.

I went back and did a little research the last couple days on this because I thought it was so interesting that what conversation we got into about the Moses and Elijah is up there talking with both of them. And Moses represents the law. Elijah, the prophets, the prophecies and Jesus is the fulfillment of all that, the person of Jesus. I mean, we hit that in the last episode. But another area that I think this, because there's so many layers here to this text, but in Exodus 19, Well, first of all, Moses and Elijah, this is what's interesting. They both encountered God as fire on Mount Sinai. I found that to be interesting.

So when they encountered him in the Old Testament, when they had an encounter with the living God of the Old Testament, they encountered him as fire. Moses and Nexus 19, when it says, now Mount Sinai was wrapped in smoke because the Lord had descended on it in fire. and the smoke of it went up like the smoke of a kiln, and the whole mountain trembled greatly. So there's like this earthquake on the mountain. Same kind of thing in First Kings 19. This is when Elijah has an encounter with God on, but in my translation it calls it Mount Horace,

which is the same place as Mount Sinai, but that translates in the glowing heat, most likely reference to the sun. So you got both of these guys who represent the law on one side and all the prophecies on the other side. And when the law and the prophet encounters the living God, they encounter him as fire. And then here Jesus is on the Mount of Transfiguration, having a conversation with both of these guys who had already had encounters with God in the Old Testament as fire. And now they're encountering Jesus as fire because he was glowing.

He was radiating. And the bigger point here, I think, is that this is like a moment that that we see like, Jesus is declaring, hey, you know that guy in the Old Testament, the God who met with Elijah on Mount Sinai, the God, the living God who met with Moses on Mount Sinai? And it's this moment where it's like, yeah, that was me. So this is a claim of divinity. It's a claim of, he is the high priest here. He is the king here.

This is a claim of the power of God that you're seeing on this same exact mountain, and what's the significance of this mountain? We could probably have a whole series of podcast on that. But this is God meeting with man. And I think that's the part that was so difficult for, it's so difficult for us to see, right? Because for us, it's like, man, to think about us even being able to have a meeting with God. That right there is just, I mean, that's beyond human comprehension,

that we could have a meeting with God, period. And I think that's when he says that the kingdom's going to come in power. I actually think this is something very significant going on here in direct relationship to that, to what Jesus said was coming and what's happening here on Mount Sinai at the Transfiguration. No, Zach, I couldn't agree more. I think that's a great assessment of that picture. And I've always loved both of those. Because both of those are the idea of relationship.

Because you remember the context, Moses is there. and he's pretty isolated because remember they've like where where did he go you know he just he'd been gone he's up there doing what god told him to do is 40 days they're beginning to get antsy on the ground and in elijah's case he'd just come off this fantastic victory much like moses with the exodus but the same deal like ahab and josebel still rejected him and he took it so much to heart that he was just ready to go he's ready to die and both times god reaches out to both of them threw fire and says, I am. And you make a great point because I think that seeing that in Jesus is a whole new paradigm

for the disciples because Yahweh up until this point had always appeared unapproachable and not able to connect to. And Jesus is now bringing this concept that Yahweh is here in flesh. The concept of Father, Son, and Spirit, we don't see any of that. until we get to Jesus. And so you're right. That's why we're wiring whole new pathways for how God is seen. And yet he does it with the imagery that they would recognize with the,

with the bright sun and the fire and the idea of it. Well, you would look at in Genesis 15, too, you have that whole set up. I keep thinking about the significance of fire, smoke, clouds, you know, in terms of God's presence. But in Genesis 15, there's that scene where I'm probably going to be. butcher this, but where Abraham, he cuts the animals in half, and he's going to walk, you know, the idea was you cut these animals in half when you make a covenant. And, and then you walk through one of the parties walks through, or both parties walk through

the middle of that, of that pathway where there's animals on each side. They're cut in half. And the idea is we're going to make an agreement here. And if anybody breaks this agreement, may this happen to you? may you be cut in half. You're going to lose your life. You're making a covenant, and I'm going to put these animals out here, and I'm saying that if I walk through this, if I break this covenant,

then may this happen to me. And so you have this scene in Genesis 15 where Abraham is doing that, and he's establishing, or God's establishing this covenant with Abraham, but what happens is when they walk through, when the parties walk through the, the two halves of animals in the form, I think it was in the form of a cloud or smoke or fire. It was the, it was only God that went through. It was only the Holy Spirit that went through.

Basically what he was saying is, if, Abraham, if you break this covenant, may this happen to me. Not you, may this happen to me. And it's the first picture that we have of this God who would take on the wrath himself. He would satisfy his wrath through his own sacrifices. he died in our place. And so when you get to the Mount of Transfiguration, like all this is happening here, particularly in Mark 9 and Luke 9, both of them,

it's this idea of God establishing himself here to us as I am, like Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. And then he predicts that I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to walk through that covenant. I'm making the covenant. And I'm going to fulfill the covenant, not you, not anything you've done. And I think where that kind of comes to full fruition is in 2 Corinthians 3, whenever Paul references that Moses going up to Mount Sinai, and he talks about him experiencing the radiance of God.

But then he comes back down. He says, but now in Christ, we with unveiled faces, we can actually see the glory of God because of the Holy Spirit. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. So you see all the members here in this moment. And I think that's one of the most profound things. Because this is a key text in Scripture in Luke 9, that there is a, this is like one of those crescendo moments right here that's happening with all this. I think most people are still waiting on the kingdom.

This would be a good lesson to show them. No, you're right. And Zach's place, he's talking about Genesis 15, is a great place to look at that because the role of Abraham, because when he made that covenant, Zach, that you were describing, the covenant was the land. He said, because at the end of that chapter in Genesis 15, he says, I'm going to give you this land. Then he describes it. Well, we're, what was called the promised land in the Old Testament, which to dad's point,

is physical Israel even to this day. Yeah. But it was never about the land. It was about the faith. It was about Abraham's response to Zach's point. Only God could fulfill. So again, it's a narrative. People thought, well, the whole thing was about that little piece of property over there that's next to the sea.

But that's not it. It wasn't about the land. I mean, the land was part of it. I never was. Yeah, I mean, and this gets really controversial with a lot of religious groups. But to me, I think you get that moment. All this to me is you can't separate the gospel from the kingdom. You just can't.

And so there's that moment in when we went through Mark and right before Jesus, or when he goes and he cleanses the temple. Do you remember the reason why he was so angry about? I don't know if you guys remember what he said. He said something to the effect of, you've taken this house of worship for the nations and you've turned it into a den of robbers. And, I mean, we missed this part.

Think about what he said there. The temple was a house of worship for the nations. that if you're if you are if you're in an israel and you're Jewish at this time period and that would be like wait I wonder if they caught on that so wait hold on a second what are you talking about for the nations there's only one nation yeah only one matter and it is yeah and it's not all the nations it's the nation of Israel but even even even in the old testament that you see this all the way through it and you see this idea of the kingdom you see the threads of the kingdom so when jesus comes one of the big things that he's establishing here is that, hey, in Romans, Paul talks about this in Romans 9, it's not the descendants of Israel who are Israel.

So he says, it's not the DNA. It's not, you thought that when I made this covenant with Abraham, you thought it was about this physical place and you thought it was about people who shared this DNA. And that's not what I had in mind in any of that. It was never about that. At the end of Romans 9, he says that it was it was always about the children of faith those who would pursue God by faith are Israel that's Israel that's that's the that's us that's the kingdom and I think that that's why to this day it's it's the idea of what Jesus is accomplishing here is is so mind-boggling to us but but when you go back and you see these moments like in the transfiguration it's like all that old testament stuff all of a sudden it makes sense all of that starts to pop. You're like, oh, that's what that was about. That's what that was about. That was a foreshadowing of him. Which is why I think that was one of the reasons why that Moses and Elijah, who you both

mentioned, is interesting because it would seem like they were both pulled out short of their ultimate goal if you weren't looking at from God's perspective. Because right when they get to the promised land, they're ready to go in. Moses let them out. 400 year promise back to Abraham and guess what? He says, no, Moses, you climb up here on this mountain and you and I are going to have a combo and you're not going to go in. And Elijah, when he gets right to the point of when Israel finally understands some

things, guess what happens to him? A tornado comes along and pulls him right up as well. And even John the Baptist, who we talked about. Think about John the Babes. He's the forerunner. He points to Christ and we get right here to the point where the kingdom is about to take off. and guess what? John doesn't get to see it. They did not.

They did not understand what this meant. The son of man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They did not know what that meant. It was hidden from them. Now, God had a role to play. Satan had a role to play. You know, who did the hiding? I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. So that they did not grasp it. And they were afraid to ask him about it. To this day, it looks like to me that's their thinking yeah they just don't they're there they're it's just implanted so deep yeah i think i think it's something about the narrative let's take another well i've been trying to say this for a few podcasts so i don't think it's registering but uh this maybe it's registering we're just not listening no i don't think you're listening

so this word that jesus when it says he was discussing his the end English translators, we don't have a word for, you know, for Exodus that I think accurately depicts what the conversation was here. Because the Exodus was all about leaving and arriving. So when we see departure, Jesus is on the mountain. I'm going to try this one more time. Jesus was on the mountain discussing his departure, which is the word Exodus.

Exodus. Peter referenced it in memory of this occasion and then applied it to his own departure. So here's what I'm saying. The word there was Jesus was bringing

there was a new liberation that was going to arrive. And so he's concerning his death but also his resurrection because Zach was right. You can't have the gospel without the kingdom. in Luke's gospel, the kingdom is mentioned 41 times, 53 in Matthew. Well, that's a lot.

A whole lot. So you have this prediction of the kingdom. So here's my point, and you were close on this, Zach, to making the same point. So when he said right before the transfiguration, when describing his death, barrel, and resurrection, which would be the foundation of the foundation of the resurrection. the kingdom as far as the king the liberation of the of the earthly things to go back to you said the enemies of the cross well they focused on they're focused on earthly thing but the next verse in philippians is but our citizenship is in heaven and we eagerly await a savior from there

well that's the arrival part of the kingdom that's the resurrection and i'll i'll give you for instance so when he says in verse 27 i tell you the truth some who standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God. Well, that's the kingdom's arrival. But they're not getting past the word death, departure. If you're leaving, well, we're, what this party ends, which then makes sense to where he got into John saying, you won't understand this unless I leave.

Yeah, John 14, through 6th. Because the spirit's going to be poured out then. Well, that's going to help you with your understanding. Just think not having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit versus having it. Think about having seen a resurrected Lord come back from the dead rather than trying to understand it before. This is why John the Baptist was having doubts. They're all, when they hear the word departure, you immediately think, oh, well, this party ended.

And that's why I think it's a different. That word is really, if it just said Exodus and you focused on, there's a freedom from the bondage and it's taking you to a new place. And you're going to see that happen in your lifetime. There's a new order. There's a cosmic shift that's fiction to happen when I die and I'm resurrected and the spirit's being poured out. The kingdom is actually going to arrive on the planet. despite all the suffering, despite all the evil. So if you go read, then I'll let that comment, but if you go read all the arguments, you know, the top 30 Google searches on, give me the best argument for Jesus or Christianity, you'll be very disappointed.

It's all the cosmological argument and the ontological argument, all these, they go back to the beginning of, of time, you know, and they're trying to make these arguments, and they're missing the very fact of what Jesus is offering through the fruit of the spirit. Those are the greatest arguments. You want real love, joy, peace, patience, you know, forget those kind of thing. There's your real argument.

Well, people are like, well, how is that argument? We'll try it out and you'll see. Then you'll understand. That's good, man. Yeah, I agree. I love all those arguments. I've read them all and studied them, but yeah, at the end of the day, you get down to,

where's the real power? Because you mentioned that verse when he says that the kingdom is coming in power. And then you see what he says in like the next part of the text. And you're like, how is that powerful? How is somebody dying powerful? How is your departure powerful? And I think that's the cosmic paradigm shift that he's bringing in the kingdom is he's redefining what power is.

and this whole podcast is based on a verse out of Romans that I want to read because I think it's key to the whole thing when we're talking about the kingdom coming in power. This is what Romans chapter 1, verse 16 says, which is the anchor verse when he started this podcast, all three of you guys sat in the room and basically our trailer was, I filmed you guys quoting this verse. And here's the verse. I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is. is the power. So the gospel is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes first for the Jew and then for the Gentile. For in the gospel, a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last just as it is written, the righteous will live by faith. That's the power of the new kingdom. That's the power of the kingdom of God.

It's in the gospel. It's in the death, the burial, and the resurrection of Jesus. Because what it does is it gives us actual access now to be in God's presence that we could never have before. We could have never had it in any other kingdom because we can't go before this holy God who stands on Mount Sinai and radiates and glows. And they walled this out and renounce it to this day, was my point, all the way to now. Either Jew or Gentile. But Luke says the same thing in the previous verse that I just read. 26. If any, Jesus said, if anyone is ashamed of me in my words, the son of man will be ashamed

of him when he comes in his glory. There's your power. And in the glory of the father and of the holy angels. I mean, it's the same, same as Paul wrote. Yeah. In Romans. Yeah. Which, Zach, before you, one podcast, you know, one of the things that showed that the disciples were being earthly is when they went to Samaria in verse 51 and ran across some people who did not welcome them. And so they have an idea. And it's based on what they just saw. You know, Fireball Elijah is on our team. We saw the meeting.

And so he says, Lord, can we, you want us to call down some fireballs from heaven to destroy them? well that they've missed the arrival of the kingdom so yeah when you get to chapter 12 and we i know this is kind of review because we went through it but you know jesus in that instance said no just no i mean it was hard to explain why because obviously we're looking at this later and we have a better picture of it than what they had but when he gets to verse 49 of chapter 12, he said, I have come to bring fire on the earth, which I'm sure the apostles were thinking, well, we tried to get some fire, brought down. You shut it down.

You said now. Now you're saying, oh, yeah, I'm all about fireballs. But that's not what he was talking about, because he said, how I wish it were already kindled, you know, which most people believe, it's when the spirit would be poured out. but there was also a fire of judgment also that he was taken upon himself on the cross so you know whichever way you fall in that line i'm fine with both of them but then he says but i have a baptism to undergo and how distressed i am until it is completed and every scholar i've seen say that he's using the word baptism as an immersion into pain and suffering

on the cross, which is a complete denial of his self, which, look, ironically, our baptism symbolizes a complete selfless act where you're surrendering because he underwent the same immersion in the actual death, barrel, and resurrection, which is the salvation and was the arrival of the kingdom of God on earth. No, I like that. And I think the role of faith in this whole process we're talking about, whether you go back to Abraham, who was the father of the faithful, Jace, to your point about Exodus, the original Exodus, the children of Israel, the people of God, were enslaved, and he took them out of Egypt to take them into somewhere else, right?

And along the way is Mount Sinai and everything that mentioned earlier. But what happened? How long were they out there? 40 years. Because a whole generation couldn't accept by faith who God really was. And they didn't go into the promised land. They died in the desert. Well, when Jesus comes along and now ushers in the new covenant, his death-barrow and resurrection,

guess how many years goes by for the generation to have an opportunity to accept him and embrace what he said in the new kingdom? 40 years. And guess what happened at the end of the 40 years? There was a mass death of everything they knew in a terrible instance brought on by Rome. So I think the similarities, to your point, Jason, about Exodus is both departure and arrival is true. And you see it the arc type all throughout the Bible. You see that same thing.

And I think even to Dad's point earlier, you can even come into our current generation and see. what does it still take faith in who Jesus is. So, I mean, that hasn't changed across all generation. I mean, I get why people don't embrace this because they're like, well, look how much evil there is in the world. Then you get into all these arguments that you'll find online. Well, how come there's so many hypocritical Christians? You know, why did Jesus have to die?

Why couldn't he just, you know, forgive us? And, you know, where's your proof? And so even like when we went through all that thing with Josephus, You're not going to prove. All those arguments do is realize the need for faith. I mean, you get into Hebrews 11, he's like, without faith, it's impossible to please God. So you can have 175 arguments about things you can,

whether you can prove all this or not. But all that proves is that you're going to need faith, which is exactly what he said in Hebrews 11, 6. This is impossible. This is an impossible journey. if you're going to go try to gather proof that he came back from the dead, that he was standing on this mountain. I mean, we could go over, find a mountain, say, is it logistically possible?

I mean, there seems to be some mountains that would qualify. But you're never going to prove it 100% beyond the shadow of a doubt. That's why his arguments were more around the heart. So when you look at Luke 15, you know, why are you eating with tax collectors and sinners? Well, a word came up in all those three parables, joy. He's bringing joy to human beings, a joy that you're not going to find anywhere else on the planet. It's a very good argument. It is.

So those who have experienced, you know, the love of Christ, the grace of Christ, the suffering of Christ, the suffering of Christ, how do you have this joy, despite the world seeming like it's lost its mind? and all this evil going on. Well, now you're getting in to the stronger arguments of our faith here, which it's hard to explain to someone in five minutes, because they're just looking around saying, there's no joy on this planet. Well, and you hear it all the time, don't you? As you'll see somebody and they've got a large family and they're believers,

and you'll hear people say, look at those people. I mean, they're having eight kids and bringing them into this world as bad as it is in climate's destruction. You hear it, and it's joyless people that look at people who are saying, well, yeah, because this is what God called us to do. I mean, we're loving life. Look, the subtleties of this story, which I think are, I mean, we've been in the, we've been on this for days. But look, we literally had a situation where two guys, Moses and Elijah, you know, Moses has been dead 2,000 years and Elijah. I mean, it's, and Jesus is radiating.

And you look over at the disciples and they're yawning. They were asleep. They said they were sleeping. They were coming out of a sleepy, stupid. Well, yawns. You're like, that really describes the problem human beings have with relating to what's going on. They were physically there. And they were like, oh, what's this all about?

That's bright. Bright light woke me up. Maybe we should build some shelves. What's going on here. not sure this is safe it's like did you miss it but look I've I've gone it's been in front of crowds that's a great rendition that way well we're like why can't these people see it I'm like they're sitting on the mountain and they're like so then they get all fired up they're okay you win and then they run up the next story that happens is an

embarrassment. Yeah. They're like, hey, look, you gave us this power, but we can't get this demon's pesky. You know, we can't get him out. And he's like, well, did you pray? Oh, we forgot that. Yeah. See us, the access, because before you make fun of them, how many prayers have you given in your life where you actually weren't acknowledging that you were actually talking to God?

It was just words coming out. You know, I've heard some of the greatest sermons ever through someone else's prayer. Yeah. I'm like, were we praying or was you just giving a, you know, the points you missed in the first sermon? You know what I mean? And look, I've done that before, too. But I think that's why faith is a difficult thing to wrap your head around. But it's why it's so central to everything because you do have to believe.

and that's what Jesus said. How long, oh, unbelieving and perverse generation, how long will I put up with you? It goes back to that idea. Let's take our last break. Yeah, it's funny because to your point, Jace, about the apologetics, which, I mean, if you know me, well, you know that I, I mean, I got a book shelf behind me with a ton of books on apologetics and theology and systematic theology. But I will tell you, somebody asked me the other day, they said, have you ever led someone

to Christ through apologetics? and through these arguments, the cosmological argument, the ontological argument, teleological, all those ones you mentioned. And the truth is is that I haven't. The 20 years that I've been studying, and it's been, and I'm very grateful for, you know, a lot of the intellectual apologetics, because I do, I've had questions. I've had doubts. I want to, I like the fact, I mean, I'm encouraged as a believer when I read these,

but I don't think it's the ultimate power to shape someone because at our core, It's not just about getting the right information in us and then we're going to be okay. I think, more importantly, there's something deeper in us that as humans, that we're not primarily thinking beings or primarily worshipers. I mean, that's what we are at our core. And so to really move someone in a way that's profound, I think it's, they have to have an encounter with the holy God. They have to see his glory. They have to see this transcendent beauty of a God who would incarnate and everything that's encapsulated in that. And when you said that, Jace, I was thinking that the craziest conversation we had with our neighbors the other day that we've gotten to be really good friends with.

And they're not believers, but they're, but man, we have like the best conversations with them because it's just really honest and raw and vulnerable. And one of the girls in the conversation, she said, she said, you know, because we have a lot of intellectual conversations about faith and hangups and all those questions you mentioned. And why would a good God allow bad things to happen to people? You know, how can we prove his existence? How do we know the Bible is reliable? All that stuff. Like we talk about all of that all the time. And every time we get together, we do that.

And we've been doing that for about a year. And a few months ago, she said something one night that was so profound. She said, I think I'm going to come to know Jesus one day, which is just that admission alone. I was like, wow, man, we're making progress here. But she said something really provocative after that. She said, but it's not going to be for all the end. intellectual reasons that we talk about.

She said, for me, I'm thinking it was a little bit of a jar. But she said, you know, for me, I think I'm going to come to Jesus because when I see, like, the way you guys live your life. And she said, and I want, I want that hope. And I see the beauty in what you're saying. It's not about, it's, I just look at the world. I'm like, man, this is not good. And she can't really make sense of why. But it's like, it's, it's that, it's that transcendent thing.

And I think that's important for us to remember. I think it's what this transfiguration story is showing in a way. I mean, this isn't just an argument for God's existence. This is an experiential grace on a mountain where everything, you're seeing and beholden the glory of God. And to your point, they were bored by that. At least initially, they were like, they didn't get it. They did not understand what was going on there. Yeah, they didn't get it.

And look, I'm not throwing rocks at it. because I'm saying we have all the information, and it's just a daily, like Al's illustration on Mary, it's a daily grind that's hard to re-ignite yourself in faith. And Jesus's whole point is you've got to think less of yourself. I mean, when you think you've got it figured out that we've got a problem, or when you think you've arrived, or you've done something really good, or had these mountain-top experiences.

Because that's why they were afraid. You know, then it says, so they went from sleepy to bewildered, you know, let's make a shelter, to afraid. Because then when the cloud appeared and enveloped them, they were afraid. Because up until this point, when you encounter the cloud, meaning God's presence, not some kind of software, that people died. If, unless there was some, you know, you were set up in a tabernacle with rules and, That's what the Old Testament was all about. So that's why they were fearful. And then they hear this voice from God, which I'm sure that made their fear worse.

And fortunately for them, he just declares, this is my son, whom I love, which is, you know, you forget that. You see the power of this, but the beauty in that. And then here's the father that created the universe saying, I love, I've become a human. here he is and I love him which is why he's doing this and you need to listen to him yeah and you would think that it would work but like they did they had a mountaintop experience

that was kind of a wreck for them it wrecked them but that's what God's presence does to us it does wreck us and bewildered us you know and it bores us sometimes just because we don't want to deal with whatever we need to deal with and then they have the valley experience which is this frustrated. They're back to the world. Here's the evil. First thing that happened, back to an evil world. Which I think, yeah, when we, when we get there the next podcast about that, you'll see that. And it makes perfect sense that Luke places it here, because it's like, meanwhile,

back down here where the work is. I mean, the ideas. But I love it, Zat, to your original point, about fire and making it personal. Jeremiah and Isaiah talk a lot about quenching the fire of God. And then I love what Paul said in 1st Thessalonians 519, do not quench the spirit. There's this idea now that that fire that Jason is mentioning that is talking about now resides in us. I mean, and the ideas is, you know, look, there are times when that fire is burning bright and and our faith is leading us and we're seeing it. And there are other times when the fire gets low for whatever reason. We let things get in the way.

And that's the idea there. But now it's personal. The Holy Spirit lives in us, and he even gave us a visual image of it when the apostles received the Holy Spirit to then impart for the kingdom. What was it? Tongues of fire. I mean, so literally it was on them. Sin and death are worth looking at closely, carefully.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, in a practical way, every time I'm sitting on my couch and I'm listening to somebody struggling, always go back to their death. Bell and resurrection in Jesus, because I'm like, well, what do you, what's your view of Jesus? I mean, just like Luke did. Who do you think Jesus is? And they're like, oh, well, I've been saved. And I'm like, okay.

But what I'm trying to figure out is, did this person die? You know, the old self, is this person, we're trying to keep that person buried because we lose the fire when our old self comes back and starts making these decisions. But it's weird. what you do or what you say or what kind of situations is it always goes back to that it's like is they just keep coming did you actually did you actually understand that or and they're like why are you asking me this i had an experience you know they're wanting to talk about you know why their wife doesn't love them anymore you know whatever the situation is they lost their job and well

who jesus is in your mind is the most important that we're not getting off that to be all in all the time It's a chore. I remember when I was young, dad, every time a young couple would walk in and hit, and hear your mom's house, and dad would say, well, how's the fire burning? Remember, dad, you would always ask that? And I knew what that meant. That meant relationship-wise, are you stoking that fire? I will say that before we go to overtime, but I do think the reason Luke put this next story here is because here was a man who had his,

you know, he brings his son to Jesus, which just think about that. when you're putting your child in someone else's care, that's always difficult, especially when there's a problem. And they didn't sugarcoat the fact that he had doubts the whole time. And so I think that's where we get off. That's what he was trying to, I think, give the disciples a picture of. You're going to have doubts. There are opportunities for you then to go secure your faith in who I am.

So the next podcast, we're going to get into that story. this healing of a boy who has an evil spirit, as well as this argument that ensues about who's the greatest. To tie a bow on this transfiguration, there's two questions I'm going to ask in overtime if you want to follow us over. One is what was the real purpose of it? Because we've kind of hit it around, but we've never actually said. And another question, a subjective question is, what do we think they were talking about? But the big three is they were having that combo. So we're talking about that in the overtime as we kind of tie off the transfiguration.

and we'll see if you want to follow us over blazedtv.com slash unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click that little bell to get notified about new episodes. And for even more content that you won't get anywhere else, subscribe to BlazeTV at blazedtv.com slash unashamed.