Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 735 | Phil Cracks Up HARD Over the Blowtorch Preacher Tale & Pulpit Illustrations Gone Wrong

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

Jase relives the moment he saw a preaching career go up literally in flames before his eyes! Phil cries with laughter imagining the potential headlines in the next day’s newspaper. Al recalls one of his own big blunders in the pulpit and how far he had to go to make up for it the following Sunday. The guys discuss Jesus casting out a troublesome spirit from a boy while simultaneously rebuking his own disciples for their arrogance. The guys also address hypocrisy in the church and how Christians should deal with the consequences of it.  In this episode: Luke 9, verses 37-43; Mark 9, verses 14-29; Luke 17, verse 20 — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? So welcome back to Unashame. We've been talking about in between our podcast here. I guess because in the last podcast, Zach brought up about fire. Well, the fire and the lack of enthusiasm, not enthusiasm, the lack of discernment. Excitement and excitement from the disciples. They're going around.

They're sleepy. there's two people being transfigured that were dead years ago or in a which by the way so we're glad you're bearing with us an unashamed nation because I think we spent four podcasts we have camped out at the transfiguration well that's a place to camp out it's a good place though it's a great this is a pivotal moment in Luke and this is leading to Jesus's trek to Jerusalem where he's going to prove what he predicted. He said, I'm going to be killed.

And it's like every, you'll notice, because he does this three times in most of the gospels where he is. I mean, he references many times, but there's three distinct predictions. I'm going to suffer. I'm going to be, but every time it's like he uses different phrases

to like, you get the picture of what's going to happen. He's going to go through the judicial system and be condemned to die. Right. And so, you know, the disciples are not getting it. And I made the illustration that it's not uncommon, especially, you know, Christians have doubts. And I'm one who says that's a positive thing.

I mean, the Lord allows you to do that. The story we're fixed to read, this is exactly the picture that you see. Jesus heals his son and the dad, he didn't, he was doubting whether he could even do it or not. He handed it over, and Jesus wasn't saying, oh, I'm going to wait to you're sure 100% that I'm the one before I heal your son. But he didn't do that. He healed him. And then the father's like, well, help me with my unbelief. I'm still doubting.

And so we were talking about how we try to combat that as speakers. And I brought up something that happened that I will never forget. And we were kind of laughing. This could be a new segment. It could be called illustrations gone wrong. Or as Phil would say, this is a DED. Don't ever do. So that was a guy that I'm not, we're not going to mention his name just because we're

fixed to throw him under the bus. He may be a listener now. That was a guy who was, went to the seminary with Al and I. He was an upper classman. So I guess when we were freshmen, he was a junior. Yeah. And a great speaker. He was from Florida, by the way, Zay.

Yeah. Uh-uh. It wasn't Gordon Dasher, was it? It wasn't my dad. No, it wasn't Gordon. It wasn't Gordon. From time to time, you know, these what they call preaching school students, they would recruit to speak. And even I, who I said, I'll never be a, you know, like a paid preacher in my mind when I went.

I was just trying to learn the Bible. Well, we would all, like, practice preach on each other in chapel. We would. But then everyone. Once in a while, you got an opportunity in the big room. You got to call it to the big leagues. The big leagues. It was like a call-up.

It was like double A. And then maybe you got that one chance to shine. So you really want to do it really good. And this is years ago. And a lot of these people, you know, it was hard to make a living when you were going through school because they had it set up where you couldn't have a job and do the amount of work that was required. I mean, you went to school five days.

days a week. Four of those days were eight hours. And then you had all this homework. The other day was four hours. The fifth day. Yeah. Yeah, that was, so you, they had a support system where you would try to go get support from people to, you know, financially help you. And I was terrible with that. I couldn't ask people for money. So basically, you know, I lived on just peanuts and playing cards. But so this guy was a little bit better at asking for money, Jay's. That's the way. Well, I lived a little better than you, and I became a preacher. Yeah, exactly. So this guy, you know, and you got a member at that time when you're in school, you're fired up, you're hearing all this Bible, and you're like, you know, I'm fixed to shake this bunch up.

So he gets called to preach at the big room for, you know, the main worship service. And he was pretty well the best speaker of the upperclassman, in my opinion. And the most mature. He was older and married. He was older than us. And so he was just a very affable guy. And I think you're right. I think he got a shot.

Down to Earth, you know. So what he did. And he was actually interning for the church, too. So that's one of the reason why he got an opportunity. What he did as a side job was a, he was a roofer. Roofer, yeah. Which I got into that, you know. And so, man.

Which is somehow I missed that. You were talking about when Burley was on. I never knew you got into the roofing gig for a while. I did that for two years. I learned. That's a hard job. I'm thankful for it. because I just do think that every young man needs to experience, you know, what real work is.

I agree. And, you know, it's difficult. It was a worldly environment sometimes, you know, because part of the crew, you know, they're just trying. It's hard to get somebody who will work on, you know, we could probably change our whole culture. If we could reintroduce an apprentice mindset where every young man, especially, would have to go and spend some time working for somebody. Oh, yeah. We could probably change our whole.

Well, you probably don't know this. Also, I worked in construction, you know, major construction of buildings and all for three or four months. And I'm going to tell you, they hollered at me from the time I showed up to the time I left and used every four-letter word in between. From the moment I got there to the time I let, you know, at least with the roof and Burley had just come to the Lord and he was trying to get his life right. We were having a few spiritual conversations.

But so anyway, the guy gets, I don't remember the sermon. Which years ago. Let me just say out the bat. If you've got an illustration gone wrong, the one thing that will be common to that is nobody will ever remember what the sermon was about. Because the illustration has now trumped any message that you were trying to get across. But what this crazy boy did, I will never forget. and it was the number one memory I've had over any sermon

because he was talking about the transfiguration and, you know, the fire of the Holy Spirit. And, well, you know, the problem with church gatherings is you're doing the same thing every week. And now you know this. Sometimes it's hard to get a pulse. Yeah. Especially in your hometown.

And this guy's full of, you know, bigger. And so he had a contraption, huge contraption. up on the podium and he had, you know, like a black sheet over it. And so he unveils it. This is his, we're getting to the invitation thing here. So he's built his whole lesson up to this point. Now he's going to bring it home. He brings out of, you know, something that the equivalent looked like the end of a fire hose.

And he ignites this thing. And it's a blowtorch about the size of a small. all vehicle. It's a roofing tors to heat the roof, right? Yeah. Yeah. And when he touched that thing off, look, I'm three quarters of the way in the back. And this is a big room.

Well, look, it was the equivalent to when the tongues of fire came and danced around. Because just the wind, first of all, that hit me blew my head back. and the heat my first thought was I wonder if the people in the front row are still alive because you're pretty far back so he's got the fire

he's pointed this at the direction of the audience it's going over your head it with the blow torch which is amazing because he's well they heat a whole roof at this machine heats a whole roof

this room is a big room to being on the front page of the huge paper tomorrow. And I thought to myself... Forty-five different people were burned today. After I had gathered myself... Church misfigure.

And I'm sure multiple people needed to go to the bathroom. I mean, it was one of those moments. But I thought this guy's preaching career just ended right before my eye. He did. Because we broke every fire code. So the instructors were running up there to kind of quieting things down? I'm guaranteed. How many meetings did he have to sit in that next week to talk about what a bad thing he had done?

Well, the only people that responded on the altar call were the elders. And it wasn't that they were responding. They were getting close enough to get him to say, we need a meeting right now. Don't fire up a blowtorch in the middle of the worship assembly. That was so powerful. I'm not embellishing. It just, the heat and the heat. the force of that thing.

And I'm three quarters of the way back. How far am I from him? Oh, that's, well, that thing is probably... 50 yards. I was 50 yards away. Can you imagine the people on the front row what that felt like? I mean, he put it over your head. Yeah.

I mean, people were diving for... It was shot. Wow. And it, like, it heated up. Was he just getting louder as the machine? Cranked up? No, he didn't. He didn't remember anything about the ceremony anymore.

He didn't, you know, yeah, I don't remember, but it wasn't like that. It was just like a shock moment. Shock and all. Yeah, then he made his point. No one was listening. I'm serious. You want to transfigure someplace. Go do that.

Well, right. Well, that's the thing. I mean, what people don't realize, especially you know. God had him beaten when the, when the cloud came. by and, you know, it was a big racket. He had him, but it was a replica that was... Now, but preachers get to thinking,

like, you start thinking, wouldn't it be cool if? And almost every time those thoughts begin, and look, I've had them, you know? At some point, when before the sermon, he got to look around at all of his equipment saying, uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, I thought about that later, I thought. They wanted you, you know,

I'm going to get this point to build a fire under them. Yeah, well, you're studying later... He actually brought the fire. Yeah. You start, you're studying late at night, staring at the ceiling, and you're like, a blowtorch. I, you want a fire? You're going to brain the fire. I'm going to give you some fire.

So it was odd that we, I tried to. You want to transfigure the real estate that part of the country we live in? Check this out. I'll show you about what fire is. Well, I had one, I had one not, not that bad, but, but I had one that went wrong. So we grew up out here on the river. And in doing that, you just lived a certain lifestyle. And we didn't go to doctors.

We didn't go to veterinarians. We didn't go anywhere to deal with anything. We dealt with everything ourselves. So if an animal needed euthanize them, we did it. I mean, that's just part of our lifestyle. Well, I thought everybody was like that. You know, you only have your own experiences, right? So I don't even, again, I don't remember the sermon.

I don't remember what I was the point. I was trying to get across. but I used as an illustration when we had euthanized a dog here on the river. And I mean, I mean, it was a firestorm. Now, in the moment,

you don't realize it. But then afterwards, I got hammered by so many people in our church, mostly just little ladies. Well, it upset people. It upset people. Everybody likes dogs, and they don't want to hear a preacher

talking about one dying. That's right. That's the rule. I mean, you can add that, you know, to the list. Oh, it was a, from that point, at DED. Now, I'm clever enough, and I still got to preach here. So the next week I got up and I did a whole funny bit of my, you know, falling on the sword. And I took pictures of me with this one of our staff members' dogs. And we drank out of a bowl together. And I had all

these pictures of everybody's laughing. It's like, oh, I love dogs. Yeah, I loves dogs. He's good. So I was crafty and how I covered it. But it was, again, it was one of those deals where it was illustration. In my case, I was just pretty ignorant of thinking how this would come across. But, I mean, when the illustration trumps the lesson, and that's all anybody can talk about, that means you used a bad illustration. Well, in this case, it was a safety issue. I mean, you know, what are you thinking, dude? Something will heat an entire roof. Do not unleash that onto a crowd of people. But you see where it's thinking was, it's like, well, what we're talking about is more important.

You know, are you ready to now? Whatever the illustrator. I don't, I really do not remember his point. All right. Just the fact that you pointed it at the audience, that's the, I mean, if you had like a little flamethrower, I mean, I got to get that. You fired up. You pointed that the opposite direction, you know, but to point it over the heads of the

audience, that's a little extreme. The most unfortunate thing about this story, Jay, is I only wish that, because now we record everything. on camera is that we don't have that on camera. It could be one of the all-time great ones. You could do a reenactment because I guarantee you, because there were a lot of, you know, older people there, I guarantee you that a lot of people either lost their toupee

or grabbed the top of their head when that thing hit, which when you think in the TV world, that's what they would do. The guys up there watch this illustration, you know, shot to the audits. I mean, toupee comes off, you know, people are sweating. because it raised the temperature in the room at least 20 degrees immediately. It was, I just, it was so intimidating. I just couldn't believe it. I thought, what was he thinking?

Because my instinct was to run. I thought, well, this went terribly wrong. One mistake there, and you got a big problem. But, you know, there are some, what I call them prop preachers. I've never really been one, but there are some that are very effective. They bring props up on stage all the time and use those in practical ways and are very good at it. Yeah. You know, I never was a big prop guy, but I would try to engage stories or different things.

I remember one time I did a, it's just one that stuck in my mind that was a positive. Remember that song from O'Brother where I went down to the river to pray? It's kind of a really beautiful song and they were coming to get baptized. So that song has just really touched me. I guess it was about the time the movie came out. And I had an idea that at the end of my sermon, I was going to have our praise team people start that from the audience and then come forward and they did it.

And it was, I mean, it gave you chills. It was so good. Like just them singing it and as they came forward and the harmonies kept going and they had their mind. By the time they got up there and we were singing the song, I was ready to get baptized again myself, you know. And every once in a while you hit on one that works out well. Yeah, I think Jeff Wallach.

That was the old brother where are thou? Yeah, yeah. Jeff Walling, who's a good friend of ours, he works out at Pepperdine now. But he's always been a dynamic speaker. He usually speaks to young. One of the best I've ever heard. Yeah, young people. But he's really good at crowd interaction.

But he's good at that, you know, which, you know, part of my speech is when I go around because most of my things are maybe not church events or whatever. But I'm not scared to interact. with people because at the end of the day I'm just a normal guy I'm not I don't claim to be some kind of world-class speaker because that's where all the fun comes out and it's authentic yeah you you involve other people one thing he does that I like is instead of saying I got three points he'll he'll pick people from the audience yeah and I don't know how he does it when he goes to places he doesn't know anybody or he may ask for volunteers so he strategically does a sermon where when he gets

to that point. They say it. Yeah, they stand up and say it, you know, but it's clever. It's like if most people tried that, it would be a complete disaster. You've got to be good. But every time I've heard him do that or see that, it's so much more memorable than something like, you know, lighting a blow torch over my head. The lesson I learned there is stay away from that machine.

Or stay in your lane, bro. The point is you want the illustration to accent you. what you've talked about and to bring it home not to become 30 years later the only thing you remember about a person in this case of things you don't want to ever do that's right exactly yeah if you ever had one go but go wrong on you that you can i don't do yeah i don't do the props i don't think i've ever done a prop in a sermon so yeah i'd just stay away from that why don't we just take to jesus i mean i think that's that's even better he element in you know i was talking about last podcast all the arguments that we get into coming out of

the transfiguration where do you start jace to kind of well what you start is look so so the perfect segue dad so we're we're literally in the case of the transfiguration we're on a mountain and so now we're coming down from the mountain and before we even i'm going to read this text before i even read it. There's so many illustrations, to use our point, that you could talk about that. In other words, when you've been on a mountain and then you come down into a valley, there's a lot of implication that goes with that statement. And so I do think that part of what's happening here in this story that we're about to tell is the idea they had just experienced this amazing thing on the mountain, Jesus included. And now we come back down and we're back into real life. So let me read it.

And then we'll comment on it. Verse 37 of Luke 9 is where we are. If you're keeping score, we're moving on from the transfiguration. The next day, when they came down from the mountain, a large crowd met him. So we're back where we were. We're back to the large crowds again. A man in the crowd called out, teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child. A spirit seizes him, and he's something.

suddenly screams, it throws him into convulsion so that he foams at the mouth, it scarcely ever leaves him and is destroying him. I begged your disciples to drive him out, but they could not. And then when you read the mark account of this, I think it's the market account, you get even more detail on them not being able to do it. And it's an interesting read. We would make a look at that later. So Jesus, and this is just me, I'll throw this in now and we'll talk about later, but it's this almost seems like a frustrated tone to me from jesus like not just in the moment but kind of in general oh unbelieving and perverse generation jesus replied how long shall i stay with you and put up with you bring your son here i mean it's not it's you know most of the miracles have kind of been very this didn't

sound very compassionate it's like uh you people bring him over here even while the boy was coming the demon threw him to the ground in a convulsion, but Jesus rebuked the evil spirit, healed the boy, and gave him back to his father. And they all were amazed at the greatness of God. While everyone was marveling at all that that he had done, he said to his disciples, listen carefully to what I am about to tell you.

And now he goes back to what he told him before the mountain. The son of man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. But they did not understand what. what this meant. It was hidden from them so that they did not grasp it and they were afraid to ask him about it. In modern day, I've talked carefully for several years on people who deal with individuals who act like this, Al. They're telling me, that's 2003. Talk to the person, they're there they're observing the human race

this kind of conduct goes on today yeah I'm just going to say that to let people know well this is so far until what you get in these medical medical situations in these hospitals

and where there's people like this coming and going it would surprise you I was surprised on how many people are screaming when they hit the floor and I mean sometimes you got to I mean you have got to cuff them somewhere another to hold them but but it's not like a large police force

it's just people who deal with individuals and this is exactly what they do yeah so I don't know the end of the story and the true cure for it we point people to Jesus we try to but but a lot of this goes on never doubt it until including today.

Well, you bring up a good point because we know it was an evil spirit because Jesus cast him the Jesus spirit out, right? A lot of people look at this passage in modern day and say, well, this kid just had epilepsy, you know, because it's descriptive of an epileptic. And they're like, this is, you know, then you'll hear a whole thing about, well, you know,

in the ancient times they thought evil spirits were into everything, blah, blah, blah, blah, but that's not true for this story because the son of God kicks the demon out. This kind of conduct, trust me, when I tell you, I have researched this thoroughly and talked to individuals who deal with this particular in this field of study. It's tough, it's tough, tough. But here's the other thing. Luke, who writes this book, is a physician. Now, I don't know what they knew about epilepsy in the first century, but I'm saying is if there had been a medical explanation, I'm sure a doctor would have told us. What the doctor said was it was an evil spirit, and Jesus cast it out.

And if you look over into the Mark account, the disciples said, why couldn't we drive it out? And he said, well, this kind can only come out by prayer. Yeah. Because they've been trying to remember to cast this demon out, we're not able to do it. And the conversation is more, you know, when he says, how long Jesus in Mark's account in 921, he said, How long has he been like this? And the answer was from childhood. It has often thrown him into the fire or water to kill him.

But if you can do anything, take pity. And Jesus is like, if you can, question mark, if you can. If you can. And he says, you know, a very famous phrase that has been on many a sign outside of church building. Everything is possible for him who believes. which is what's ironic is this guy, that was his problem. He didn't believe because immediately the boy's father said, well, I do believe, but help me overcome my unbelief.

Which again. It's a strange statement. But what a statement. Let's take another word. So that's why I said it's an important point because I personally think that after the mountaintop experience with the Transfiguration and the speech about when he said, you know, I'm going to die, be buried, I'm going to suffer. But then he also says that if anyone would come after me, when he told his disciples,

you must deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow me. So it seems to be after they come down off the mountain, they then experience from the disciples perspective, which Luke really captures, look, there's going to be doubts. You're going to have difficulty battling with evil. because the first thing that happens is this. And the reason I'm saying this is because then the next thing happened is this argument breaks out about who's going to be the greatest. And Jesus uses this example of a child.

He says, you know, here's the greatest in the kingdom. He who is, what does it say, whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me. And whoever welcomes me, welcomes the one who sent me, which I realize I'm jumping ahead. But I feel like I have to because I think he's, point was you think, why is he using a child for an illustration here? Well, it takes a lot.

When you welcome a child, that happens to be something I've been doing for the last two years, a child that's not my own, that in the course of ministry, we have gotten a child that we're helping care for. You know, kind of like our role at this time is kind of like, I guess, you know, like a godfather, but like a great, like grandparents. from a godfather type angle i guess so we're trying to help the mom trying to help the kid but what i've learned in the last two years there's an incredible amount of sacrifice that goes in to welcoming a child especially from my wife and just take that what you're just saying take that and remember

in various parts of a couple of cities not very big monroe west Monroe don't ever doubt it for a second that there's not now, they have the medical profession, mental illness. So, and, and you, you, you, you, you look at our culture, and there's more and more of them, you say, but there is a lot. You got a lot of drugs in there going back and forth, you never know. But mental illness is a thing going in progress all around us, and it is nothing to laugh at at all. This is something we have to deal with as to solve with Jesus when you're helping people. So look, there's going to be a lot of doubts. You're going to be battling evil.

You're going to be battling people's mental illness. You're going to have to sacrifice. I mean, there's no other explanation, in my opinion, on why he's giving them this illustration on the kingdom I'm representing. It's not about who's the greatest. It's about sacrifice. So that's why he's bringing the kid. If you're going to welcome him. Very much so.

Well, then the next thing, well, you're going to have opposition. They go to the Samaritans, and that's where the fireball conversation came up. But the point was, people are not going to like you. They're going to oppose you. They're going to reject you. Well, then the last section, he gets into the cost. And all these things are good things that it's going to cost you. It's, you may not have a place to lay your head.

You know, people are going to die in your family. You know, this is, and they're not going to be welcoming you and what you have to say about. And then he's like, your family, people and your family's going to get upset about this road. So that seems to be how Luke has arranged these stories of Jesus. It comes back kind of to the response of, yeah, I'm going to die. I'm going to bury it. I'm going to be raised. Then if you come after me, you're going to deny yourself and take up your own.

across daily. So I don't know what y'all think about that, but that's kind of the way I understood it, which it helped me understand why it's making such a big deal about this guy having doubts. And when you look at the story itself, you realize how helpless he was, number one. It wasn't because he was some holy stalwart in the faith.

He's just a guy hollering out saying, look, he's desperate, which are the kind of people that just, Jesus is seeking. Yep. So he stops. Then and now, I mean, you talk to people who are there and do work in this field. And then when you talk to them and they tell you cases and what they've heard and what they've seen, it's a scary thing, boys, I'll tell you all that.

No doubt. Very much so. But then the second thing you see in this story that's weird is that actually when Jesus got involved, it seemingly got worse. You know, at first he was just convulsing, but then it says, oh, is it in Mark's account? It's in March account. Yeah, in Mark's account,

he went from having a convulsion to being dead. This is 25 of Mark 9. When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil spirit, you deaf and mute spirit. He said, I command you come out of him and never enter him again. The spirit shrieked,

convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said he's dead. Well, think about this from the father's perspective. You wanted help, and now he's gone from being sick to dead in the moment. You know that's what he was thinking. And I think this was a great illustration for his disciples that Jesus was showing, that, I mean, you just know in the Christian face, Sometimes things seem to get worse after mountaintop experiences.

That's right. In these modern times, you can get some personnel. If you want to research it, I'll spend my, you know, being a doctor, I'll specialize in this particular field, the mentally ill or whatever. But you're licking to this and you open this box up, I'm telling you, it's a big, big opening and it runs deep and a lot. And a lot of people. Here's where I think people, I want to address that, Dad, because I think Pete, the mistake.

If someone says this is not going on today, they don't know what they're talking about. So here's the mistake. But this is a different, I mean, Jesus was showing that he was the sign of God and that he has the power of it. What we're dealing with today, you know. But I think to Dad's point, I want to speak to that. Because a lot of what I read about this was just where you're at now. Well, they just didn't know. They didn't have the medical training.

They didn't have blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But here's the problem. they make. Here's the problem they make. So they try to make it either or. In other words, it's got to be demon possession or this kid was an epileptic or this person had mental illness. Yep. What about both and? You could still be mentally ill. This kid could have been an epileptic, but he had a demon that then triggered the epilepsy every time he would have the fit. He was also deaf and mute, apparently, because that's what Jesus called it a deaf and mute. It's coming from somewhere.

So my point is, when we talk about mental health, which is a good subject to talk about, or we talk about emotional distress, they're almost always tied into spiritual answers as well. We know that. I mean, again, if a psychiatrist needs to someone. My own help in this area with my fellow human populations, I mean, I see this much along with the people who work in the nursing. the doctoral field and when people just come and sometimes the police have them and they're handcuffed and they have to cuff them to they'll tear up the place and I mean look there's a lot of I can't way more than I ever thought so my point is not everybody that suffers with the mental illness or with some seizures or something necessarily has an evil spirit some of them could have an evil spirit that then triggers that and I mean because certainly

that is what happened in this case. Sure. So I just think we limit ourselves when we make it either or. It's got to be mental illness or demon possession as opposed to potentially both, which is I think maybe what was going on here. Joe Bean, when he was on our podcast, he mentioned that demons, apparently from the times you read about them in these scriptures and evil spirits, he mentioned that they tend to want to harm the body that they possess and that we see that over and over again.

Oh, yeah. But then again, they're almost like they have to be there to have an existence. A lot of them are doing this. The cutting and the hurting of yourself. Right. So it does bring, it is an interesting discussion to see, but Jace's overriding point is the one you want to really latch on to here. And that is that Christ is enough no matter what.

And it takes that belief to make that happen. And you're not going to understand that all the time. Right. Now, obviously, and you don't have to. I mean, look, I've had more of these conversations in the past three months with people, and you're like, what could I say? Because, you know, just some people have become so calloused and hard-hearted. And you're sitting there talking to them, and it's like everything you say,

they claim to already know. But when you say, well, how's that working for you? You know, their life is in complete disarray and disaster. And so when you try to help them, they're like, well, yeah, we already know that. You almost want these doubts so you can have a point of reference to actually have a discussion. So that's why I was zeroing in on the helplessness. I think it was a double meaning. The father was showing that he's helpless and desperate.

The disciples are acting like they got it all figured out. and they didn't even pray, I would just think, all right, what should I do in any situation? Especially that seems confusing. Is this mental illness? Is it a demon? Well, the first thing we need to do is pray. But the fact that they didn't do that, and Jesus said, this type only comes out in prayer. Now, maybe I'm reading too much into this.

But it just seems like it's such a crazy thing to say this. He's saying it's more serious than you people are thinking. Well, or maybe, Jason. I'm thinking, why didn't you pray about that? But maybe it's come. Remember they're coming off, but he just sent them out not long ago. And they were able to cast out demons and heal people. And so you're feeling a little bit full of them in vinegar, you know, like, I got this.

And you're right. They forgot the most important rule of being in Jesus' discipleship program is that you have to appeal to him and to the father to do what you're trying to do. You're helpless. You're helpless. It's all, this is my power. You're denying yourself. That is, to me, the point because he then... Well, you know it is because of the other illustrations after.

That's exactly. Then it, that's why when you read the last paragraph, which a lot of Christians make, it makes them uncomfortable, but he's simply saying, this is going to cost you, this is not going to be all, you know, worship moments and blue skies and rainbows. of being a disciple of Jesus, which goes back to the original thing

of carrying your cross. Whatever you figure out that to mean is very important. Because if you're carrying your cross daily, we all know what Jesus, what that meant to him. He was carrying his cross. He was alone.

Nobody was encouraging him. They were cursing him. They were spitting at him. They had just flogged him. They were making fun of him. Well, are you prepared? to go public for Jesus and experience the same thing. Ironically, in chapter 9, about verse 46, they want to know about who's the greatest.

Then he said, you know, whoever welcomes this little child of my name welcomes me. Whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me, for he's the least among you all. He's the greatest. He who is least among you. He's the greatest. Master, they said, we saw a man driving out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him because he's not one of us. He wasn't with our little group, so we're going to chastise him because he doesn't have it all fixed up. Do not stop him, Jesus said, for whoever is not against you is for you.

It's a pretty good answer for someone that thinks they've got a little bit more spiritual power than the one seated next to them or the one they see on the side of the road, and you just automatically say, he's not one of us, cull him, because we're this. And then they've, and Jesus said, don't do that. Well, if we just apply this verse to our churches, it would be a lot better place. Oh, my goodness.

Yeah, it would. Well, and just think about it. I see somebody driving out demons out, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to leave them alone. I'm going to say, hmm. But if they say, well, well, I've never seen that before. Well, I'll just be short and to the point here I have. But just think about the kind of...

Yeah, but it's not about driving out demon. You're helping people. Look, when you try to help people, which is a unselfish act, especially when you're doing it. Loving them will go a long way. Especially when you're doing it in the name of Jesus. Because look, there's people that help people all over the world. That's right.

For us, you know, we're doing it in the name of Jesus from a humble, helpless position, trying to get them to see his power. Kind of like what we said, the illustration about Jesus radiating from the 2nd Corinthians 3, that we're reflecting God's light and power onto people. It's Jesus.

It's just bouncing off of us going in to them is what we're trying to do. It's just amazing to me. We've talked about this one on the podcast. Something will happen in our country and maybe some people say, oh, is this a spiritual revival and you hear about somebody doing something great? Why is it that some people immediately want to do just what the disciples did and say,

somebody needs to shut that down because this isn't, they're not doing this the right way. And then they'll start telling you all the things they saw or heard they don't agree with. Why is that mindset there? Because Jesus makes it really clear here. It's not up to us to go around being the police of everybody's renewals and stuff that's happening. That's not our job. I mean, we're not qualified, is what I get out of this. Oh, I remember just, you know, recently when this big thing with Hill Song happened,

with the leader, the founding member was under investigation for child abuse or whatever. He's dead now. I mean, we're going back 30, 40 years and their model with the money. And there's been multiple, you know, shows about it, documentary. because the world, you know, when they hear something about a church being corrupt, well, they're fixed to make a show about that because it kind of feeds their narrative on one of the reasons. Everybody's a hypocrite.

They're just like that. Well, right. Everybody's, you know, a hypocrite and all. But so somebody came to me about that because I, even to this day, you know, listen to some of those worship songs. And I was trying to make the point kind of in the vein of what we just read. don't ever doubt when Jesus is preached, even amongst things like that that are going on,

which look, I hate to tell you this, is going on in all churches. There are people in the pews that are living in adulterous relationships and all this. I mean, the church is filled with hypocritical people. I think we all agree. If they came to our church and did a documentary on the hypocritical nature and go back 40 years,

look, I'm pretty sure they can make a show out of it. of it. People come in there. We got a show. So the point I was making is I brought up this song, and I said, well, I'll tell you this, because I was having an argument with this person. And I was trying to say, look, we can't police. God didn't call us to police all the religions of the world. I said, but there's a song called So Will I.

It's a famous song. I mean, I have it as top five songs ever created. It is awesome. It is the gospel. It ends with, you know, speaking of Jesus, he's the one that leaves no one behind, which is a great line. I know where they got that, you know, Luke 15. But I just made a point to say, look, you got to remember the kingdom of God. And speaking of on earth, spirit-filled people that are part of the church.

Luke 1720, which we'll get to, says you can't see it visibly. It is within a lot of religious settings. and a lot of settings that are dark as far as false apostles and immorality going on. But Jesus is still being preached in a variety of ways. And people are coming to the Lord. They are. They are finding this. And so you got to make up your mind to remember the big picture.

And that song, I use it as a classic example. Don't listen to the song. Just go look at the words. Just look at all the words that somebody wrote in the middle of that ministry. tell me that was not a positive thing. Yeah, because if you hold, if you hold people to a standard that, okay, you've got to be 100% right before we will listen to your song or your sermon or read your book or whatever. I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't get that either.

I mean, what does the song say? Is the song biblical? I mean, I don't, I mean, we, no one's got it on straight. You know, we come in here and talk about the Bible every, almost every day of the week. and we say all the time we could be wrong. I mean, it's like, like, what's the old football at it? It's do your job.

Well, what I'm saying is if you go to YouTube and you look at a Hillsong song, well, right under it's going to be some preacher saying why they're demon possessed and then right under that is going to be a show that Hollywood did saying that it's wrong. And I'm like, this is not the, model when you read who Jesus is and what he did. Because even in his own disciples,

there were people, or at least one person, doing miraculous gifts that Jesus had given, Judas, and he was a million miles away from Jesus. Did that not thwart everything he did? No, one of them was a betrayal, which is the reason I think he chose him. Because when you see all the churches and all, they're going to be ones that have leaders. ship, go completely off the rails and follow money or the world or whatever. We all know that happens. I mean, especially when it comes to this kind of idea with the prosperity, wherever that came from, which you think it's not unlike what Paul wrote Timothy.

I mean, right after he gives this great illustration, or not illustration, but great pontification on who God is and what Jesus represents the king of king, Kings. It was right after he said money is the root of all evil and watch out for false prophets among you who elevate money before Jesus. What is still going on today. But that doesn't mean we're going to have to go run an investigation. Do you realize how many churches there are out there? Oh, my goodness. You know, which I mean, you think, you want to steal your joy. If your job is to expose the hypocrisy in the church and that's where you put all your effort as opposed to make God famous and celebrate his glory.

I mean, that's the two, that's kind of the litmus test for me. Like, are we talking more about who God is? Are we talking about more about who the church is and how messed up? I mean, church is messed up. I mean, no matter what church you've ever been to, that's right. I mean, you see how the sausage is made. It's not, it's not quite as, it's hard.

I mean, you're trying to run an organization that's got a lot of issues and got personality differences and things going on. Not to say there is a true, I mean, there is true stuff in the church that needs to be exposed. I just think that we're in a culture right now that it's like we just cannot wait to expose failure in the church so that we can discount it. And I just don't think that's healthy. I just think there's a where I am is after being, you know, in a church and basically working there for most of my life. now that I'm not doing that as my primary focus,

my vision has broadened to who the true enemy is and what he's doing to our world and our culture and people. And so I'm kind of like Jesus here. I want to focus more on fighting the true enemy, the ones who aren't against us, meaning that don't believe that Jesus is who he is. And let's just fight that battle. And not so much with the guy across the street.

No doubt. I think that's why he's showing. these illustrations. This is part of the kingdom is existing. It's frustrating to run across groups of people where you're like, they're not doing this exactly right. And you have this moment

happen here and Jesus says, hey, they're not against us. They're forced. Let's keep moving. I mean, we know what's right. Because even at our church, when I said you could run an investigation, but one thing I do know is when sin comes out, it's confronted.

There's so many private rooms. meetings going on on a daily basis. And I'm not, I don't even have a position in the church. And I just have people, you know, that I've known for years. They knock on my door and they come in and turn themselves in and say, I've been doing this or that. So you're like, what do you do? You try to help them.

You go back to the same things that we're talking about here. And, you know, you encourage them to confess their sins. And people are like, well, if you confess it, well, then everybody's going to know that they've been living a hypocritical life. Yep, that's the hand we're dealt. That's what God said. That's how we deal with it. I mean, it goes back to what he was saying, all things are.

They're cranking up a movie where it's about me, and that's the most pathetic thing you've ever seen in your life. But if you want to see a pathetic individual on the big screen, it's coming up. The blind. Just clarification, the movie's not pathetic. The movie's great. The lifestyle. But Phil's true.

It's redemption. I said, man, that's downright embarrassing. But Phil, you're right. If everybody shared every rotten thing they did, you know, and made a movie about it, well, nobody wants to see that. But that's how we operate in view of the cross and our helplessness and our humility and showing the power of God. I mean, let's face it, this is a newsflash.

The church is a group of flawed people. No doubt. hypocritical in nature. You're not a hypocrite if you admit it. And the thing about it is, once you admit it, once you admit it, then you're out there because the dad, I would argue that the reason that you allowed us to make a movie about your sinful life before you turn to Christ, you're still a sinner, that the fact of how it drove you to Jesus Christ proves the point that you're willing to talk about what God did in your life. That means you're not a hypocrite. or not a hypocrite.

The underlying thing that hit my head was, it was a question, will it win people for Jesus? That's right. Will it help them? I'm going to vote a big yes on that. So we'll, that's the blindmovie.com.

I'll play Zax Row because we're out of time. We'll talk a little bit more about this than overtime, this idea about the costs, because we just touched them a little bit. So if you want to follow us over, blazedtv.com slash unashay. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes.

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