Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 773 | Phil Robertson Uncovers What the Bible Really Says About Divorce & Interrogates Siri

Episode Date: October 20, 2023

Phil quizzes Siri to see if she knows more than her cousin Alexa, and Jase discovers Miss Kay’s twin in Mississippi. The guys try to decide if keeping recipes to yourself is acceptable in the eyes of Jesus and have an illuminating biblical discussion about marriage, divorce, adultery, and forgiveness. They cover the context of the marriage commands delivered by Jesus in Luke 16, as well as how that context translates to our actions in the modern world. In this episode: Luke 16, verses 16-18; Matthew 19, verse 1 — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Hey, Siri, do you duck hunt? Oh, yeah, you can. Suck it up. Well, Dad, still fussing with that woman that knows everything. Yeah, I had one before right beside my bed, but she ran out of it. I can't help you this morning, wake you up at 530. I said, get out of here. Get it, tear it down. They unplugged everything, thrown outside. Somebody got it. Hey, Siri, do black panthers exist?

Here's an answer from nedhardy.com. A black panther is a real animal, however it is a melanistic version of any animal in the panthera family, like jaguars, cougars, and leopards. However, it isn't its own species. There you go. Ask her, do she know who Jesus is? You know who Jesus is? Hey, Siri, who is Jesus? Here's what I found.

What you say? We interrupted her. No, she said, here's what I found. Jesus is referred to as Jesus Christ, Jesus of Nazareth, and several other names and titles. He was a first century Jewish preacher and religious leader. Does it say the son of God? Nope.

She missed he's the savior of the world. Yes, she's out. Call her, get somebody else in there. Hey, Siri, who is Phil Robertson? From Thessonahmaholic.com, Phil Alexander Robertson, is an American professional hunter, businessman, and reality television star. Do what? Hey, Siri, have you seen the movie about Phil Robertson, The Blind?

Here's what I found. Oh, she just listed a bunch of stuff that Zach probably put on the internet. Jack, you're heading up the river. Hey, son. By the way, I looked at the newspaper. Somebody sent them down here, and I'm on the front page of the newspaper. Well, congratulations. Are we still doing newspapers?

I said, when are they going to find? Did you get arrested? I hadn't seen a newspaper. I'd have to hear what that woman said there. She had it all down. She did. No, that exchange started, I don't know when we started filming this. Because all of a sudden my phone started talking to me.

And Phil said, who is that? I said, well, that's Siri. He said, who is Siri? And I said, well, that's Alexa's cousin. And he said, oh, they know stuff. Yeah. They're related. He knows all about the.

Dad comes with a woman who knows everything. She knew who dad was. That's pretty impressive. Well, she did know Jesus. We started with the question of who is Jesus. And they did not say that she didn't say. She didn't say the son of God. No, she said Jesus of Nazareth.

No, we asked her who Jesus was, and she left off that one important part, the son of God. So I was in Mississippi filming last week, and are you leaving us, Phil? Yeah, but I'll be back. Okay. I'll tell you the story while Phil's getting some coffee. This is what we call a casual cold open, so. So I was in Mississippi, and I met this woman. She's 75 years old.

and we filmed in her front yard. She has a bed and breakfast, and that's what she does. She hosts people. And I'm not embellishing this. You know, I have a reputation for embellishing a story every once in a while. A well-earned.

A well-earned. This woman was the most hospitable woman and just a plethora of knowledge about everything. She was like a walking encyclopedia. But the meals that I ate at you. were incredible. I mean incredible. This woman cooked them?

She cooked them. And I spent most of the time she loved to like have you sit at the table because it was me and Jeff, you know, and Murray. And she wanted to like pamper us and spoil us and way more like desserts than you could possibly eat. but everything I ate was absolutely fantastic. So she cooked one night, pork chops, and guess how she did it? The exact way that we've been doing, which is the only way I've ever eaten them that way is down here at your house until I was there. So she browned them, quick-fried them, you know, put them in the oven.

Because I just started eating in the kitchen because I wanted to watch everything she was making. So the next night, well, with that, she had mashed potatoes and gravy, and her gravy was better. But she wouldn't let me watch that. She's like, no, there's some things I just can't reveal. We've got right now coming down the pipe, it's blue-wing teal meatballs. No, we talked about that. Did you ever give the recipe?

He didn't give you the recipe? No, he won't give it to you. Well, that's what I'm saying. Well, the next night she made a meatloaf, which, look, I've never eaten a meatloaf that didn't make me gag besides moms. Well, yesterday's, Ms. K made one, and it was the finest thing I put my mouth on. Well, this was a little different, but it was as good as I've ever tasted. It was just, and what occurred to me after 48 hours of this, besides the fact that I gained probably, 10 pounds was that it's such a lost art in our culture of being hospitable.

I mean, this woman was just a, she's a believer. She was just kind, gentle, informational, and the food, it just kept coming. And I just thought, this woman, I mean, forget where you're at, bed and breakfast. It was just the experience of having somebody who has the gift of hospitality. It made me think from a spiritual standpoint. And I was really trying to encourage her because I was like, here you are 75, working as hard as anybody I've ever seen.

But using this to make the world a better place through what her platform is, is the gift of hospitality. So she has people from all of the world come and stay here. And guess what? They're not coming because it's an old house and it's a cool place.

I mean, it's in Mississippi somewhere. But I told them, I said, they're coming. for you because you're amazing and you're awesome they're coming for the grub and that grub oh my goodness so watch that episode when it comes out and find your way i'm sure they'll promote that wherever we were at but uh so that'll probably be you know two years from now but was she actually on the episode jays oh yeah she was fantastic on look you know it just made me happy though it's like we have people on there and they do the best the best they can but you know it's so funny right before we started

filming she said well nobody's told me what i'm supposed to say and i said well they're not going to tell you i want you to say whatever you want to say we're just going to act like they're not there and she said well i think i can do that and so uh she was fantastic on camera just because she was she didn't care you know she yeah she's fantastic so i want to wanted to share that. And by the way, I drank something I had never tasted before, and I thought it was fantastic. She said, I fixed you on Arnold Palmer. And I thought, look, I'm not a drinker. I started going, I didn't know what an Arnold Palmer was. And she said, you know who Arnold Palmer is. So you just didn't know what to drink. Yeah, I said, I'm not a big drink. I thought it was some alcohol

drink, you know. No, it's unsweet tea with homemade lemonade. It's unsweet tea? It's unsweet tea? Because the lemonade is the sweet. That's right. I thought it was fantastic. It was, what's the chick fillet has something similar?

I think they, I don't know if they call it in Arnold Palmer, but they do serve it, a mixed of tea. Is it called a something dream sickle or what is that called? My kid ordered it yesterday. Well, my kid ordered it. And I was like, what is that? He said, it's half tea, half lemonade. I said, that's called an Arnold Palmer. He said, but that's not what he ordered.

It's a, I'm sure someone can look that up. Somebody look it up. Somebody knows the answer to that. So I'm just guessing that she probably didn't say this, Chase, but did we, did Arnold Palmer like combining lemonade and tea? Is that where this, is that why they named the drink after him? Do we know that? She went through the story, but I had a producer whispering in my ear about five minutes into it. And so I missed the end of it.

But, you know, because she could talk now. You said she was a walking in a encyclopedia already. I mean, she knew more about history. She didn't ever run out of words. Never ran out of material, you know. So I feel kind of bad. James, we say that about you, that you just found your alter. ego and this woman in Mississippi because you don't run out of stuff to talk about it.

She is fantastic. Sunjoy. It's called a sun joy. It's a refreshing combination of our classic Chick-fil-A lemonade and freshly brewed. A little difference here, sweet and iced tea, also available with combinations of Chick-fil-A diet lemonade or unsweet iced tea. Yeah.

Well, that's what you want. It'd be too sweet otherwise. It's too sweet. So that's what I thought. This wasn't that because I don't like. like sugar in my drinks. Me either. But if I had to, I will say the Arnold Palmer was really good.

Because I like lemonade. And she knew that we weren't big sugar drinkers. So she put less sugar in her lemonade than normal. So what it was was kind of a tart, unsweet tea. Yeah. Like a tart, the tart watered down tea. I thought it's fantastic. So I do want to apologize for.

or something. Every time I say something on here, you know, we move the needle. So that's on y'all, not me. And I mean, unashamed nation. Because now, you know, I see these coconut macaroons everywhere. Now grocery stores are hand-making them and baking them. Look, stop sending me coconut macaron. If I eat what I have, I literally will not be able to get through the door. They just keep pouring in from everywhere. So I'm like, okay. The other thing we need to shut down, which we did, y'all did, is I had made a comment, evidently, I don't even remember this, but I made a comment that a life-changing experience for you at Chick-fil-A is to order well-done fries. Oh, they shut that down. Oh, they shut it down.

Because now too many people got the memo, and all the Chick-fil-A's got held up because every day. because everybody's ordering well-done fries because I was right, they're 10 times better. And I'm not taking credit for that because Sadie is the one who told me. I can tell that by listening to you. You're not taking that part. Well, look, hey, look, duck, this is what you're responsible for, Unashamed Nation. Duck Family Treasure, the blind. The blind.

And shutting down well-done fries at Chick-Palais. And if you ever wonder, what have, what have we accomplished? And the massive production of macaroons on. Oh, man, somebody out there making, yeah, coconut macaroons is, is buying an island off the coast because of what happened. And the marketing guy has probably been promoted, and he didn't do anything. We got to, you know what, that brings that to the top of my attention. They, they need to sponsor the podcast because they're getting all of this. Well, good luck.

It's free. Good luck. Jay's. And look, it's even a step further. So I just got a box this a couple weeks ago in the mail. It was actually at the church. And somebody sent me macaroons and they said, well, I'm sure people are sending a lot of macaroons to Jay's. And I feel bad for you, Al.

So I'm going to sit, don't let Jay's have these macaroons. I actually told the. They haven't come up and given me doodoo squat. That's what I got out of. Well, get ready. You got to come up with world-changing ideas. get a way to get my truck down in here or somebody's truck. Think of something.

But I told the showrunner, I said, if we could have filmed. I'm still waiting for the macaroons, but no. Trust me, I'll bring you. Come to the gate, turn around and leave. I'll bring you some macarons. I got plenty. But I told the showrunner, if we could have filmed this, the explosion of the macaroons, it's another TV idea.

because that that would have trickled down to so many places, I'm sure. And now, you know, I'm out in my front yard directing trucks, bringing the macaroons. Yeah. Well, Dad, you were talking about the teal meatballs. So Jersey Joe was just down here with me for a few days. He and Christine came down and spent a few days. He did. He cooked first night.

He cooked a couple of times. We kind of shared the cooking duties. But he cooked some Boudan meatballs. another invention of his where he took boudan and mixed it in with his. They were wonderful, too. What was the boudan? I mean, Boudan, Al, is so general.

Now, people who are not from Louisiana, Boudan is what we eat in Louisiana. How would you describe that in? Well, it's kind of a, it's a meat and rice sausage is what it is. In a casing, like a sausage casing. In a casing. It's a sausage. But what he does is he cuts the casing off the sausage.

Hold on, Al. Siri, what is Boudan? Here's what I found. Recipe, a pork and rice Cajun sausage is what she come up with. So he takes it, he cuts the casing, Joe cuts the casing off the sausage, and then he just takes the middle part out,

and he mixes it ends. All of his sausage, dad, he wouldn't give me the exact recipe either because he's so glad that you love the teal sausage, but what he does is he's mixing like his Italian sausage and his other things he does for a meatball in with whatever meat it is. That's why it's so good. So like that teal, and he puts a little of his pork fat in there and,

you know, makes it into a delicious meatballs. It's the old take a piece of duck and wrap it and bacon and jalapeno and cream cheese. Yeah. And you're like, man, that's how you cook duck. I'm like, that would be good with no matter what you're doing there.

Bacon, pretty much jalapeno cream cheese, right, made it. Yeah, you lost me. You got me at bacon.

That's exactly right. So, yeah, so Joe cooked for us. Last night, he cooked us a big spread. His last night here, he cooked us a big

Italian stuffed chicken. And he made some homemade fettuccini and Alfredo sauce. Yeah, he had the red sauce. He had the red, no, he doesn't call it sauce.

You got to call it gravy. It's red gravy. It's what he calls it. But yeah, Joe's a tremendous. cook. So he was on the podcast, Zach. I don't think you were on that episode. And and the Unashamed Nation loves Jersey Joe. So some point we had to have him come. We didn't talk that much about cooking last time. But I wouldn't let him on unless he gives up that

recipe for the sauce. I agree with that. What is up with this hidden recipe? I mean, I mean, I'm very guarded. He got it from his grandmother. And he said, I said, I need to get that recipe. He said, no, no, no, no. Well, there's nothing that's conceit. Well, there's nothing that's conceit. field that won't be. No more unashamed nation until we get that recipe. Unless he's on the premises. He's there, you know, to monitor. But no, no giving out the secrets. Well, I'm trying to quote a verse here. Everything will be laid bare. What is that verse? He was for everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give a count. So at some point, why are we hiding this stuff? If you're a believer,

believer and we're all going to heaven together and Jesus had the infamous I'm eating fish on the creek bank post resurrection I mean are you going to are you going to go to heaven and say yeah I'm going to go on one condition no recipes will be revealed because we're going to spend way more time in heaven than we are on earth I'm not I don't get and we're family I mean this is a family recipe are we not all family covered by the blood of Jesus there you go his entire family left New Jersey in the middle of the night, and they all came to Louisiana down here, and now he lives here, and we're still feeding off of them meatballs. Which we don't have a rest of the great synops.

I'm not sure it was. If Jersey Joe's listing, which I know he's going to listen to this, we're not going to guilt trip you. This is, we're not. There's no guilt here if you own a restaurant. Jason, you're not a believer in Jesus. If you don't give us that recipe. Read Luke 15 and 16.

He's a believer in Jesus. Are you going to put your... Jesus was his best move following him and all of his family members. And then along comes that red sauce and then meatballs. Well, I think what it is. Blue-wing, teal meatball. It's the Luke 16, 15, because he's trying to justify what he's doing in Louisiana. So if you knew that recipe, I think he thinks, well, they just might send me back to New Jersey.

He's down here because of Jesus. Yeah, well, I know. I was kidding. Aware that he died for his bed, raised. So, Zach, Dad just gave you an idea for a new movie idea. I don't know if you heard it. It was subtle. It's, we're going to, you should call it escape from New Jersey.

Because he said they left in the middle of the night. Like, they just got out. They, they crawled over, finesse. fences, they escaped, they went under the wall and they got out. This entire family never balked. They all got together and all of them. We baptized all of them. I think people would watch it.

You know, there's a big problem in our culture. People leaving the big cities and going to rural areas. Make a movie about it. But do it like in the style of. Escape from New York. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah.

So, so dad, speaking of Jersey, Joe, before we get to our text, he is doing his first wedding this weekend. His daughter has asked. He went to the courthouse and got his papers, you know, that he was sanctioned so he could marry people. Right. So he and I sat down and had a little session about stuff to do at marriages or weddings. And so he's ready. He's ready to go.

I'm super proud of Joe. Yeah, the standard of getting ordained must they must have lowered the bar. I mean, is it a? If you're a fireman and you're a believer, you're qualified. No, it's worse than that, Jay's. You just got to sign a book. That's it. You don't have to approve anything.

In Louisiana, you just sign a book. That's it. Yeah. It's a low bar. So we're in, we're in Luke 16. And we had left off, we had read the text in Luke 16, 14 through 18. And it was kind of that aha moment for the Pharisees when Jesus gives a parable about loving money or loving God. And the Pharisees all of a sudden said, wait a minute, is he talking about us?

And so he gives them a little bit of a direct tap on what they've been doing. And the way I framed it last time on the podcast, we talked about a little bit in overtime as well, was that they had disregarded the air of the law and the prophets. because what he's basically saying is, look, the law has always been there. It's always been good, but you guys have never really followed it. You say you do, but you don't. And then they've also disregarded this new idea from their perspective that all the law and prophets have been pointing to Jesus. And so, because he brings that up.

He says, now, you know, ever since up to John, we have the law in the province. Now John's come. We're talking about this kingdom of which I am the king, but you're rejecting that as well. And so he uses as his illustration their approach to marriage and divorce and even remarriage. And so he brings this up. And so in the overtime, we talked about that a little bit on why that is that he brought up this idea. And Jay, you mentioned, you or I one mentioned that what they were doing was they were just, I call it serial divorce. And like there were two schools of thought.

One is called the House of Shemai. The other was the House of Helmut. L in the house of Shemai, and these are these are like teachers of the law. And this was probably maybe, I don't know, a few decades before Jesus showed up. And so they had these two schools about one of them died right about when Jesus got here, I think. So it wasn't like it was too far. Yeah, it was pretty fresh. And so one of them, this the Shemai guy, his was only marital unfaithfulness, which we read in Matthew chapter 5.

In other words, you just couldn't divorce women willy-nilly and just whenever you got tired of them because, you know, they went back to the law and it says, you know, in Deuteronomy 24. And so, but it was clear that when they were doing something that displeases you was the way the Pharisees had framed it, they were divorcing them for any reason. It was like, well, she doesn't look good enough, whatever. We didn't really collaborate on what we were going to talk about. and y'all set up the context of this, which was, if you didn't listen to the last podcast, that they were having one view about money that was obviously wrong because they were putting their security in that instead of the true God. But then they were taking the law and applying it to almost an oppressive viewpoint.

and then this one matter, they were not doing that. And so Jesus knew their heart. That was kind of the context. But since we're here, what's amazing is Al bringing up Deuteronomy 24 and these two schools of thought came from a sermon. I heard Sunday. I heard the preacher's name is Darren Whitehead. And actually my daughter was at, is it church of the city or church in the city? Nashville, one of those to church of the city. I've been there a few times and my daughter goes there,

but she actually sent this sermon to my wife because it was on marriage and divorce. And I haven't listened to the whole thing, but I listened to the first 30 minutes of it. And it's exactly what Al was going through. These two schools of thought, the Pharisees are using the two schools of thought when you're at the Matthew 5 text. And we're going to, going to read the Matthew 19 also. Yep. They were using that as a trap to see which side that Jesus would go with. And it's common legal arguing or politics to try to get someone in the box and then

see how we're going to attack him. But he read this Deuteronomy 24. Before Zach commented, I actually wanted to read this because he made a fantastic point in that sermon just by reading this and seeing how this argument would come forth. Because listen to how confusing this is from Deuteronomy 24. I'll mention it, but I just want to read it. So this is, we're going back to the old law, and it says, verse one. Hang on, hang out, Jason.

Before we do that, let's take a break. All right. Deuteronomy 24, verse 1, under miscellaneous laws. if a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her. And he actually quoted the Hebrew phrase for that, which was kind of a caption phrase. He made an illustration like, it would be like us saying about the abortion issue if you just said something like Roe versus Wade. Well, we would all know that there's two schools of thought there. and without going any further.

And so, but for us to kind of try to wrap our head around that, what does it mean when he finds something indecent about her? Because where's the line here? And so two schools of thought developed. One camp said, well, that's if she commits sexually immoral. You know, she's sexually immoral or, you know, commits adultery. Well, the other camp, is pretty much anything.

If she burns the bread, that's indecent, and I can put her away. So that was the two schools of thought. You had one that was kind of conservative, which is adultery, the other, anything that you determine. So then it says, so if a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her. her and sends her from his house and and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce gives it to her and sends her from his house or if he dies then her first husband who divorced her is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled

that would be detestable in the eyes of the lord do not bring sin upon the land the lord your god is giving you as an inheritance. So you're like, wait, what? And he made a joke, which was one of the few jokes he made, but he said, I'm pretty sure that this text was the basis for the Jerry Springer show. Because it does, there's a lot in there. It seems very confusing. And so fast forward to Matthew 19.

and when when because Jesus brings this up and I don't think we read that on the last yet but we need to so I want to read it verse one when Jesus had finished saying these things he left galilee this is Matthew 191 and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the jordan large crowds followed him and he healed them there some Pharisees came to him to test him they asked is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason. Well, now we know where they got this question. The two schools are thought. That's right.

Because Deuteronomy 24 is like, what was it that was indecent about her and can we get a divorce here for any reason? So they asked that question. And Jesus said, haven't you read? Now, this is very profound and this is really what this preacher's erode in on and what we're going to. zeroed in on what Jesus's response. He replied that at the beginning the creator made them male and female and said, for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one. Here's the next profound statement. therefore what God has joined together let man not separate why then they asked did moses command

that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away jesus replied this is a very good answer moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard well now we have a common theme to where we're at in luke 16 because he had just said you're trying to justify yourselves, but I know your hearts. And so then he says, but it was not this way from the beginning, which he goes back to his same principle in the garden. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife except for sexual immorality and marries another woman commits adultery.

The disciples said to him, if this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry. And really the disciples, response gives you Jesus' answer because everybody under the sun and scholars disagree on some versions say except for marital unfaithfulness some say different things than that some say adultery some say sexual immorality you know so but they seem to say well wait a minute he's taken the side of this conservative that you can only get a divorce over a sexual sin you know with someone else adultery.

And Jesus replied, not every man can accept the word, but only those to whom it has been given. And then he says, for some are eunuchs because they were born that way. Others were made that way by men, and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven.

The one who can accept this should accept it. So I know that was a long thing, but I felt like we should read this before we continue. But maybe, and I would argue that, you know, I'll say this. We grew up being taught that a lot of these passages were instructions for marriage. And I'm not saying that you can't take instruction from this, but I don't, I think there's a bigger context here.

And if you hone down on these passages as purely these prescriptive passages that give us instructions about marriage, and you're not seeing the big kingdom vision that he's really trying to build here, which is essentially, you said it. I mean, it's about the heart. That's what he says. The reason why Moses permitted it was because of your heart, heart. And not everybody can hear this and see this. I think that last passage, that last part you read is kind of the same thing when it says you can't, like an unspiritual mind can't see spiritual things. And so Jesus is giving us a picture of the kingdom. But what happens is when you hone in on it and you're trying to view this as more just a legal code or law, you're,

you're reading it. I think you're reading it wrong, and it leads to things like in the church that we grew up in. You know, it's a big debate back, you know, really before kind of I was paying attention, but my dad told me stories about it,

that you would have couples that were being encouraged, that were divorced and remarried, that then were being encouraged to go back and divorce their current spouse and go back to their first spouse, which just caused all kind of issues. And it was a big debate many, many years in the church over divorce and remarriage and all this stuff, but one of the passages that really helps me understand kind of God's,

what God recognizes as a marriage is in the woman at the well. You know, I want to read this because I think it's important for those of you out here who may read this passage, and maybe you are divorced and remarried. You're like, what does that mean for me? I think this is important because Jesus recognizes this woman's spouse, but listen to what he says here. He tells her about the living water. He says, this is in John 4, and whoever drinks this water, he says, give me some of that water, so I'll never thirst again, and not have to come here to draw water.

And by the way, the context of all this is Jesus, again, is explaining the kingdom. Jesus said to her, go call your husband and come here. So he recognized that she had a husband, but the woman answered him, I have no husband. And Jesus said to her, you are right in saying you have no husband, for you have had five husbands. and the one that you have now is not your husband. So she's just living with this guy, and he's not even her husband. What you have said is true. And then the woman said to him, sir, I perceive that you're a prophet,

and they go in this whole thing about where does worship take place. But, man, notice that Jesus recognized that this woman had had five husbands. And it wasn't just about whoever she was living with and whatever kind of relationship with, because he also makes a distinction between the five husbands that she had, and the one that she's living with now was not her husband. So Jesus recognized, obviously if he recognized that she had five husbands, this is not, you can be remarried. Now, divorce is a sin outside of the parameters that we talked about in scripture here, but being married is not. And I think that that's a burden that the church is unnecessarily put on people that I think is important for us to point out.

No, you're right, but you kind of jumped ahead to the practical illustration, you know, of, well, what does that mean today? And I agree with your assessments. I mean, you could even bring in the John 8, the woman who was actually caught in the act of adultery. And, you know, and you remember that famous story, which Jesus came to bring forgiveness. And there's no unforgivable sin outside of the, you know, doing something in the demon possession world, calling it by the spirit of God. We were familiar with that text. And we're not the marriage police. I mean, we're ambassadors of Jesus, right? But what I wanted to say is, I think the important place of where we should start and where Darren Whitehead started in his sermon, which I think was right, is that Jesus did define marriage here. And it is the standard. And he went back to the very creation of Adam and Eve.

And so the points that he made, and he quoted one of my favorite authors, Tim Keller, in his sermon, which I think he's right on. But the first thing he said there in Matthew 19 was this was designed by God. And just to use a practical illustration of that, whatever we view on marriage, we didn't come up with it. As Bible believers and trusters of God, this was his invention. in his design and with any creation, it only functions properly when you're doing it as it was designed to do. And so the essence of it was this male, he made them male and female. And he made a point to say that.

He said, for this reason, what reason? The fact that he created them male and female. I mean, that's what he said. He defined marriage as his creation and his invention, which is how we had the earth populated. I mean, we all understand that. Let me add this. Let me add this. Because what the disciples are saying here, when he gives this picture of marriage, which I think they were not correct in saying what they said, when they said, if this is such a case of man and his wife, it's better not to marry.

you think about, that's not true, though, because what is, what does God himself say? This is, it's not good for man to be alone. It's not good for man to be alone. And when all that existed was God in relationship vertically, or downward towards man, and there's a relationship there, God's, in that moment, God said, well, it's not quite ready because it's not good for man to be alone. And it wasn't until God created male and female, he created an image of God. he looked back and he said it's very good. So it is good.

That marriage is, it is a great thing that God wants us to do. Oh, well, I would say it's very good. But the reason the disciples responded that way, which is why this is such a controversial text, and it's a hard teaching, because the Pharisees were crafting an argument about when the one becomes two. And Jesus' answer was, yeah, but the two, become one and what God has joined together let not man separate I mean not only did he draw a line

he said this is what marriage was intended to be now we're all we can't help but go to those situations when what happens when the one is now going to become two again which is fine and and Zach did a good job of explaining that there is grace and it comes down to your heart and you're not going to hoodwink God. I mean, he knows your heart. And, you know, I've had people bring up Jeremiah three where it said basically God divorced Israel as his nation because they turned their back on him. And they're like, well, God's a divorcee. And look, it's a valid point for what happened. But there was adultery too, though. I mean, there was There was adultery, but then they make the point, well, that adultery included all, it gets back to the same argument.

What can I do? And instead of looking at it from a legal perspective, I think the second point of what God, through Jesus, explained here, is that this is a covenant. It's not just a contract. Yeah, that's it. That's key. Well, it is. You know, you should sign the contract because it is. is a commitment, but this is a covenant.

It said what God has joined together. There's a covenant you make with God, whether you're recognizing God or not. He's recognizing that covenant because we go back to the beginning of how all this started. And we just read how it got started that at the beginning, the creator made them male and female. And despite what our culture says about that, this is God's design. And a practical illustration of that is if you buy a gun, you have to conform with what the design was intended to do. If you don't, you're probably going to wind up with a bullet in you. You know, it's designed to be pointed with the muzzle the other way.

And you're like, well, I'm just not going to, I'm not going to adhere to that design. I'm not going to use it for what it was designed for, which is, I think that's, if you want to know, like, why is the culture so bent on this gender ideology stuff, it's, because it really does go to the core of humanity. It goes to the core of, here's a word, of our teleology. It goes to the core of how we were designed. It goes to the, like, when you look at what marriage is, and you think, man, you have one person, you have another person that are becoming one being. And you say, man, what is, where have I seen that before?

Well, that is the, it's a reflection of the triune God. It's a reflection. Marriage is, I mean, Paul says this in Ephesians. five. It's a picture of who God is. It's a tangible way for us to experience who God is. And when you start to contemplate who the Godhead is of a father unadulterated, has an unadulterated love for the son. And the son has unadulterated love for the father. And the love between them is the, is the Holy Spirit. And there's not the potential, it's not even possible for them to abuse one another, to use one another. And then you get this picture of what's happening here. And you're like,

and these guys were using these women. I mean, they were disposing of them in the most transactional way that you think about what was going on here. That is not what God had designed for marriage. It lacks wholeness. It lacks oneness. It lacks self-sacrifice. It lacks intimacy, it's transactional, and that is not the picture of what God intended clearly when you read the first two chapters of Genesis. And that's why I think Jesus is going back to the first two chapters of Genesis, first three chapters even, and he's showing, now this is the intention. Now, you're operating inside the fall, but that's not, that was never what God intended. The only reason why Moses did that, because your hearts are hard and you've missed the whole thing.

And he actually gave this formula in Luke 1613 when he was talking about money, when he said, no servant can serve two masters, either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. Well, when you're devoted to God, well, you despise divorce. When you're devoted to God, you despise the things that break down the family. It all goes hand and hit. When you love money, you despise God and what happens? you despise sometimes women.

And that's obviously what they were doing. They didn't care about these women. I mean, go back as a general rule. They were just marrying one right after the other for a variety of reasons. But if you have any reason to get divorced, well, you're not going to be married long. I looked up teleology. It is the, because he dropped a big word, Jay. What was the word out?

Teleology. Hold on. When he said, say it again, Zach, can you pronounce it? I think that I say telos or teleology? Teleology is what you said. I've looked it up. All right, Al, before you read that, let me give a moment of what that means when I hear teleology.

He got to use his new toy. Teleology is two Greek words together, telos and logos, the end purpose or goal and explanation without reason. So the definition is an explanation of something that refers to its end, purpose, or goal. And then they use a kitchen knife as their illustration. In other words, what's the purpose of a kitchen knife? Which kind of, it does apply to what y'all were talking about, but I just wanted to drop that in. Well, because I think so often when we talk about sexuality in the church and as cultural commentators and whatever, and you talk about sexuality, you talk about gender, you talk about all these things. A lot of times we talk about it in terms of

of values. And I always, I don't know, that never sits well with me because it sounds so, like so subjective, like our Christian values. Like what does that even mean? This isn't about what I value. This is about what is reality and what and what is God designed and what is the intention and the purpose of this design. So I think the way that we're going to have to present the conversation when it comes to, because this is, this is the conversation of our lifetime. And what we're going to have to do is we're going to have to go back and say, What was God's purpose in the institution of marriage? Correct.

What was, why would he do it the way he did it? And I think he tells us throughout scripture. And part of that is what he said, what we just mentioned, that he looks at man and you think, well, man, all I need is God. That's just me and God. Well, God, when all that existed was God and man, God said, it's not good that man should be alone. So our creation, part of what it means to be a human.

is that means that we are in relationship. And the apex and the core of human flourishment and relationship, not everybody has to get married. I'm not saying that. But it is a key part. I mean, it kind of is super important, you know,

for the fruition of procreation and all kinds of things. But I think all of that is pointing back to this bigger picture of who is God. Who is God? And then when we start to examine who he is, who are we in him? And marriage is just a great, it can be a great way for us to see him. can also be a great way for us to see, to not see him if we don't understand what it is.

Jesus didn't marry. Neither did the Apostle Paul and others. That's right. Well, I don't believe. You don't have to get married. I don't believe Jesus married just because of the spiritual symbolic way of him being. Married to the bride of Christ. Yeah, married to the church, which I believe that in a spiritual way. But some were born that way

Some are eunuchs because they were born that way Some are because they were made that way by men Castration and then there's the one that He's done it because of the kingdom of God Well, exactly and look there are some cases where people Because they know their heart and they know God knows their heart They have they renounce marriage for the kingdom of God And look more power to them

But I think where the debate and the culture happens when when Zach went to how does this apply in our life, I agree 100%. God sent Jesus to die for the sins of the world, whether it be adultery or divorce or whatever, and things get complicated, but we're not the marriage police. We're distributors of God's grace through Jesus in our message. I think the debate in the culture is more of how we treat people. And the very fact that the previous chapter in Luke 15 that he was sitting there eating with tax collectors and sinners shows you that you have different conversations with people that are in Jesus and different conversations with those that are outside of Jesus and you get into that where is it

1st Corinthians 5 or 2nd Corinthians 5 and so we treat all people with love and respect as human beings and we introduce Jesus to them only Jesus can change the heart only he can can get people to realize the true definition of marriage. We're like, that's what he says. Now you have that information, and we've introduced you to this person, and it's up to them to surrender or fight. But at the same time,

we can't go around as legalistic people policing all these situations, because you're never going to figure them all out. You have to leave room for God. He's the judge, not us. Exactly. But you can't, but we can present a vision of the kingdom, and we can present a vision of marriage that is beautiful. Exactly. Like in Malachi, when he's addressing this topic of marriage or early divorce, I'm trying to find it.

He says the Lord. It's in Malachi, too. Yeah, he said he hates divorce. He hates divorce, but why? He says, because, and I don't know how, I'm trying to find it, but I. He wants godly offspring is what he. says, here's what he says. It is because the Lord is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth. So he's going back to the original principle, Malachi, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant. So, and then he says later, verse 16, that God hates divorce. And the reason why is because of the principal. Yeah, which is why he's bringing it up in the sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5. Look, look at any culture, when you have the breakdown of the family, when you have absentee fathers in the home. What happened? Yeah. We lose our kids. Trouble. They're grown up by the world,

and we wonder what happened. Yeah, we have a fatherless culture, and then we wonder what's going on. So think about this picture of who God is. And by the way, this is a great book to read on that called Delighting in the Trinity. But I just had it right through my desk, but he talks about this a lot. But think about God. God creates humanity out of an overflow of his love for himself, meaning Father's son, spirit, loving each other so powerfully that that love, it spills out into more life, us. And in the same way, think about the marriage union, that it is a man and a woman coming together and the love between them, literally physical, the climax of physical.

intimacy itself results in the reproduction of the overflow of life itself. I mean, you see it right here in Malachi, he's painting that picture of kind of why God instituted is what he loves about it and what he hates about divorce is that it blocks that. It harms that. It is detrimental to human flourishing. And we act like this isn't true, but I have another book back on my shelf called, It's an old book. It's called Life Without Father. I mean, you look at the statistics. You break up the family and poverty rates are astronomically higher. Thomas Soul writes about this as well in several of his books on economics, but it's poverty,

incarceration rates, suicide rates, drug addiction. I mean, everything that you want to avoid in life, he says, man, how can I guarantee that my kids would be more likely to do that than you get divorced? And then the offspring are more likely to do all of those things. And so we ignore this. We want to pretend like it's not there. But, I mean, God's way, God's tell us, God's end and purpose and design for marriage, beyond the fact that it reflects him, it works. It actually works.

And it's awesome. Which becomes this whole point. All right, we're out of time. We'll discuss this a little bit more on our overtime second if you want to join us. blazedv.com slash unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube

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