Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 856 | Jase Witnesses a ‘Miracle,’ but Phil Doesn’t Think It Counts

Episode Date: March 21, 2024

Jase gives an example from his own life as evidence of the overuse of the word “miraculous,” even though he did actually pull off something pretty amazing. Phil is unconvinced by Jase’s achievement, though! The guys explore the ramifications of Stephen’s death and the spreading of Christianity outward from Jerusalem into the world. They introduce Saul of Tarsus, a persecutor of Christians who eventually becomes Paul the apostle and author of much of the New Testament. In this episode: Acts 8; Psalm 80; Jude 1, verse 9; Galatians 1, verse 13; Philippians 3, verse 6; 1 Timothy 1, verse 13 -- Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. Dad, your book is off and running now. The book has been released. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Why Jesus is your greatest hope on earth and in eternity. It's doing quite well. Thank you, Unashamed Nation.

As always, you guys rise up and get it going. So it's off and running. We've been doing some interview. Do you see how? This is being written 2,000-year-old writings. Do you have any doubts at all that when you look at these texts, what is writing on it is whether anybody can get out of here alive or not? Correct.

That's basically what we're looking at. Yep. Oh, I believe. So this Jesus, he shows up, and you say, wait a minute. What's he saying? He's here. He'll remove your sins by dying on a cross. He'll fix your death problem by being raised from the dead and said, I'm the way out of here.

Right. So it's only a one-shot deal, winner take all. I mean, he is who he says he is and he can do what he says he can do. And it's the only thing we have to get out of here alive. That's right. Right. That's always the bumper sticker that I default to when it's like, why is Jesus better? Why are you following Jesus?

What is the purpose of life? Why did God make the earth? Everybody's asking them. There's a bumper sticker answer that you just said. It's a default mode. Yeah. Because Jesus is alive. That's it.

So I had something crazy happened yesterday in this. You know, because it's, when you think about Jesus came out of the ground. I've used several times in our podcast the illustration about how people will get so excited. And they'll pay you millions of dollars if you can put a round ball in a hole in less swings than everybody else. Correct. And they're cheering and they're hollering. I mean, Tiger Woods comes to mind. You know, they're like.

And just remember. I think I did that in a podcast one time when it's like, it's a miracle, you know, when he had the broken leg. Yeah, they call it out on wounded knee or something. I don't know. There's like a name for him. So, and you hear all these, you know, he's immortalized, you know, when he won the masters or when he come back.

They use all these words that I just said is the bumper sticker for Jesus. No, Jesus is immortal. He is imperishable. He got his body out of the ground. So I made that illustration. So keep that in mind when I tell you this story. But I took a couple, not two years, maybe a year and a half off from the golf game out. And I told you that when I came back, remember, I said, what did I shoot?

78. So I'm on the once a month. I was going to say 77. I was going to give you one more stroke. I'm on the once a month plan, you know, I'm trying to play at least once a month. So yesterday I go play. Guess what a shot? 86.

Nope. the time before I shot 88. I would have thought you would have. So I had, I've had four rounds. I shot 78, I shot 88, I shot 84 somewhere in there, and then yesterday, 78. Ooh. However, we were doing no worse than double bogey before I tell you this story. So there was one hole where you could add at least one stroke, possibly two, because I was putting for triple bogey.

But the game we were playing, so technically it'd be about an 80. However, I get up on number 16. And, you know this hole. I would say it's 350 yards uphill, so it plays longer than it looks. Yesterday, I had two things going, the driver and the putter. Awesome. The irons, I was having a hook problem. and my chipping and pitching was a lot of...

Just think about this. I shot 78, and I probably slammed the club into the ground on a chip, and the ball went less than a foot three different times, which is very embarrassing. That's just what you lose when you don't... But there's very little grass. It was wet, and I'm not a professional. And so these shots become very difficult.

So anyway, I hit my drive down there. I'm 70 yards to the pen, so do the math, 350-yard, 280 drive, uphill. Pretty good poke. Impressive. So I thought, well, I'm hooking these irons. I'm hitting them fat. You know, I'm in the middle of the fairway. I was like, I'm going to take a 60-degree wedge, which I never hit for those kind of shots.

I say, because I guarantee you I can't pull hook this. I mean, it is literally just a wide open blade. when I hit the ball it felt great I thought ooh I didn't hit it fat I didn't and I look up

and the ball's going toward the stick it bounces one time in the hole just bonged bump bump it's blessed it Phil that's called an eagle in golf it's the equivalent to a hole in one

I never got around to that level yeah Well, guess what? When that happened, look, I just went nuts. You know, everybody went nuts. Wow. I was like, oh, my goodness. Some reason I've trained myself not to go nuts in it.

When's the last time you went nuts, then? Been a while. So it was like, you know, and in that moment, in the spirit of what we've been talking about, I thought that was borderline miraculous. I was going to say that was almost a miracle. Actually because you've been hitting your iron so bad. I know. I was like, people don't.

I look at some miracles as erroneous wish, hope. So it gets better. So my playing partner to the right of me, which I haven't been keeping up where what everybody else was doing here. Because now I'm like, yeah, I just made Eagle. Did some of that. He's like five yards in front of me. Well, he hits his shot.

I kid you not. Ian? Bomp. It's in the hole. There's now two balls. I was like, Now the odds of that. It's a miracle.

I did say that. And he said, quite, but it was pretty amazing. So I thought you'd find that humorous. However, upon further review, I didn't realize that he had hit his drive right, had to chip outside. Oh, that was for a birdie.

His was for birdie. Which means Jace wins the hole. But I just thought it was incredible. So, you know. Not miraculous, but pretty incredible. No, I just wanted to give you an update on that. You know, things are happening. As bad as it get.

But it's a lot like, you know, you live life in whatever you do. And I was completely frustrated. The first time I shot 78, I felt good. I was hitting the ball good. I hit the ball all over the place yesterday. He shot the same score, but had these magical moments, however you want. He scrambled, yeah. Yeah, so it was something.

I just wanted to give you an up-to-date there. But it wasn't a miracle. No miracle, but amazing. Yeah. Zach, you got any stories like that that have happened to you? Well, my golf game, I don't have. Yeah, I've got stories, but they're not really miracles. They're more like tragedies.

Well, in the spirit of what I told the other day, maybe you need to go lay your hands on the clubs in a different way. Yeah. Well, we know the story about it. Some people just don't need to be there, Zach. You need to stay away. My stint with golf resulted in a chip tooth of my brother-in-law. My wife losing their hearing in her left year because I'm,

I hit her in the back of the hell of the golf ball, the T-Blocks. And then I hit one of my- slap rock of golf. No, it's not. Zach, here's some of his boss. Get out of the game. Yeah, I've retired, Phil.

Well, Phil, that's what my point was. I got out for a year and a half just because my schedule on timing. And then it pulled me. Because I was yesterday thinking, why did I ever come back the whole time? I duff the ball, you know. Everybody's looking at me, you know.

It's just, it's the most embarrassing thing you can do is for a grown man who's played golf for years to swing and not hit the ball. Just big bunch of dirt goes and the ball just dribbles over. They're looking at me like, you're a grown man. What kids could do better than that? What are you doing? So I'd made up my mind. That's it. I'm not, I'm done with this.

And then all of a sudden, which I didn't say this before, but I'm, birdied two of the holes before the eagle. I mean, I went on a four-hole stretch there of two birdies and a hole out for an eagle. They're all talking about, you know, thinking I hustle them. Because, you know, we're playing, you know, a dollar. Everybody's playing each other for a dollar. Which I won all the dollars. Yeah.

And so now all of a sudden, now I'm going home with, you know, seven-eight bucks thinking, okay, I'm back. But really not, you know. No, that's funny, Jay's, because you had an experience kind of like me. Two holes later, well, it's now 18 there. It was nine at the time I did this, but I hit one out of bounds. And I was seriously thinking, I'm dumb. I mean, like, I'm so sick of it. But I got to finish.

We had a gang one. So I hit my next one right down the middle. And then with a three wood, I hold the next shot. Yeah. So it was for a birdie because I'm not doing out to one out of bounds. But then I thought, okay, I guess I don't need to quit. I mean, I was like, you know, that kept me in the game. I'll just one shot.

But what it does, and I don't know these guys I was playing with that well. But, I mean, I know a couple of them are believers, but I don't know about all of them. But because what happens is it's the same kind of mojo because they're like, man, this guy's just lucky. You know, I like it when they think that. Yeah. They're like, he's hitting a ball all around because when we got to 18, they're all, you know, double or nothing. we we you know it's a dollar so okay well i fire my drive left into the woods go in there we have to have a search party find it punch out and it went you know i was trying there was a little lane i was

trying to punch out well i hit it too high and it just went through the tree didn't hit anything punched out to the fairway chunked the next shot it's a par five yeah and it dribbled up there in front of of the green. So then I decided to put it from off the green from 30 yards because I didn't trust my chipping. And so I run it, I put it all the way across the green. Now I'm on the back fringe. I got about a 25 footer for par that I must make if I want to win this double or nothing. And you made it. Drained it. Drained it. Drained it. You didn't put a fistpuff on. Did you get like that?

I said, hey. What he's salted in that way? I said, hey. I never factored in the purpose of it all. Well, what I'm trying to make a spiritual analogy is we're not perfect. But you can't quit. You can't get mad. You can't blow your stat.

You just got to keep going. And the one thing I was doing was putting. I thought if I can get anywhere around that green, I'll make it. Remember that Hoosiers movie, Phil? Yeah. When they, in the coat, Gene Hackman, he drew up the play, you know, and everybody looked like, oh, no.

They didn't like the play because they didn't like the pressure of having to shoot the shot. And, oh, whatever's name was. Yeah. He said, I'll make it. And so he said, new play. Give him the ball. Pick it, fence. Come around.

Wow. I actually tear it up when he made that shot. I don't know how. the thing called Goff can work its way into the Bible because I don't think it's in here. All right. With that, we'll take a break and have an awkward transition to the Word of God. I tried to make a spiritual analysis. Okay, we left off on Acts 8.

Well, let me tell you something. This study I did last night of this, it just, it was way more interesting than that Golf story I just told you. I know. You told us we are on a roller coaster today. So just to reset where we are, we were, we talked about in the last podcast, we gave you the story, actually the last two podcasts, the story of Stephen, who was an amazing man.

He was, I call him the magnificent seven. And the reason they were magnificent is they were humble. He and six other brothers were tapped on the shoulder by the apostles to, waiting on some tables and solve a crisis problem. They were having the early church. And that's what brought him into leadership. But when he got his moment to shine, I mean, he shined like new money. He got up in there and got, I mean, they got after him.

But then he laid out one of the greatest sermons recorded in the Bible. Yeah. Or presentation, whatever you want to call it. I mean, he went from A to Z, which we went through in the last podcast. And so they killed him over it. And we didn't get into this in the last podcast, but as we're leading into this next one, you know, it was devastating for the people. I mean, it would have been very fearful.

You think about it. A guy who you love is a part of your church fan would be devastating to us today. All of a sudden, if Zach got persecuted and somebody killed him because of, you know, his faith, all of us would be like, whoa. I mean, and that's the way they were. So they scattered as a result of this, but really the scattering was all part of God's plan to begin with, not necessarily that had to happen because somebody died, but the scattering was going to happen because now we're into this next phase, which is actually the fulfillment of what Jesus told the apostles to do in Acts 1-8. I mean, he said, you're going to start in Jerusalem. I'm going to send you the spirit, and then you're going to go to Judea, the surrounding area, and Samaria.

and to the whole earth. And so what we're going to read in this next chapter, Jays, is that beginning process that happens. But it happened out of tragedy and sadness. And now Saul, who gets mentioned here two or three times and we're going to get to him in chapter 9, he's the one, he's the catalyst. Well, the first...

Well, we're most fortunate at this time frame on the earth. When you read text like this, it puts you in a situation where it's serious, very serious. That's right. I mean, it's sobering. No mucking around. Because we're in a situation here. We don't really have to deal with this kind of.

That's right. This kind of persecution. Yeah, persecution. The worst we get is people calling us bad names. We're freer than they were. Right. To spound on anything without getting. getting killed. Well, and I've told y'all before, like, for me, about 20 years ago, I wasn't sure

I wanted to stay in full-time ministry, and we were kind of going through a rough patch at our church. And Isaac Day, who now just crossed over a few months ago, he came in and spoke, and he described his situation where he was at in a country that was about 95% Muslim. And what he did every day and the persecution he faced because of it. And I just sat there and listened to him and I mean, I got chills and I just thought, you know what? I need to get out of the poor owl doghouse and get after the gospel because this guy here is facing it every day.

And so it inspired me and changed me even as a warrior for the gospel because of this man's life. It's amazing that we're all on the same page on this. And I think some of the things that came out in my study and the same things you're talking about are somewhat bizarre. But I think I missed the level of spiritual warfare that began here. And so I'm going to give you a few random thoughts. And some of the reason I think we missed this is just it's hard to translate Greek words into the English. language. And one of the first things I noticed, because if I ever look up the Greek rendering,

and there's a word that's used nowhere else, that gets my attention. Yeah. And there's one that, and the fact that I found this, it wasn't like I was looking at it. I just happened to see it. I was looking at something else, actually. But when Stephen is killed and Saul is given the approval to his death in verse 1 of chapter 8 and then the next verse says or the second part of one on that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem and all except the apostles were scattered which is which is very interesting because it leads us to something going to happen with Philip who I spent an hour trying to figure out is this one one of the seven, which I concluded it was,

because all the apostles were there. He has this encounter with the Simon, the sorcerer, the magic man. And then like in verse 14, it says when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John. And what I found also interesting about this Philip, who was, you got to remember, he started off being a deacon and he was going to help widows. He was one of the seven. Well, he's mentioned again in Acts 21, 8.

Let me just read this. Leaving the next day, we reached Cessaria and stayed at the house of Philip. Now, now he's called the evangelist. Look, one of the seven. And he also had four unmarried daughters who prophesied. Well, he's come a long way from waiting tables for the widows. That's right. Which made me realize, you know, everybody thinks they have

special gifts in the church, and I don't disagree with that. 1 Corinthians 12, you know, goes through that. But you see here that there is a responsibility for all of us to declare Jesus. And in this case, Philip and Stephen, who were supposedly there to serve, which is what Jesus said the kingdom would look like, became two of the greatest proclaimers that Jesus is the Christ. And it brought this spiritual warfare. I mean, you just think about this situation with what happened with Stephen and then what's going to happen with Philip. But the word that I said that I... It shouldn't surprise us, right? Didn't Jesus say, if you want to be a leader, you have to be a

servant? Exactly. I mean, I just thought that was cool. Exactly what he told them about. That he signed up to be a deacon and Jesus made him an evangelist. That's right. It happens. But when you have a a heart to serve and you're convicted by Jesus full of the Holy Spirit, these things happen. So the verse that I wanted to kind of, the first bizarre thing, was in verse two, they had this funeral for Stephen. Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him, which a lot of people, a scholar-wise, made a big deal because they said, well, everybody's scattered. Well, who buried And so kind of the overall thought was some of these people who had been convicted who weren't, in quotations, considered followers, but they heard Stephen's speech and they were moved. So I did think that was an interesting point.

But verse three is where I noticed this word that's only mentioned once. But Saul began to destroy the church. Well, that word for destroy is, you can look at it. it up in your Greek lexicon. But it's, it's a word that means ravaging. It's think wild beast, ravaging prey. And it really shows you the level of persecution. It's the only place in the New Testament is used. However, in the Old Testament, same word is used. And I thought this was fascinating. This is Psalm 80. And the only reason I looked this up is because when I looked up ravaging in the Bible, Psalm 80 came up. And I want to read a couple of verses here. You're going to

find this very interesting. So in Psalm 80, a Psalm by Asaph, in verse one, just to give you the context, it says, hear us, O shepherd of Israel, you who lead Joseph like a flock, you who sit and thrown between the chair of them shine forth. So he's talking to Israel, and then he gets to verse four. I'm just picking out a few verses to get the context. Oh, Lord Almighty, how long will your anger smolder against the prayers of your people? Because they had turned their backs on him. So he's created a psalm about that.

So then you read verse 7. Restore us, oh God Almighty, make your face shine upon us that we may be saved. And he says that like three times. And then look at verse 12, which is where I want to get to. Chapter 80. Psalm 80. Why have you broken down its walls so that all who pass by pick its grapes? Bores from the forest ravage it.

That's what led me here, that word ravage. And the creatures of the field feed on it. Return to us, O God Almighty. Look down from heaven and see. see, watch over this vine. Well, this is kind of making you think about Stephen here. So it gets to verse 17, and look what it says. Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand.

The son of man you have raised up for yourself. Then we will not turn away from you, revive us, and we will call on your name. So what I found interesting. Messianic prophecy. Yeah, it was a Messianic prophecy of what just happened. Stephen preached. He looked up and where's Jesus? Right hand. He's at the right hand, but notice something different. And I looked up all these verses. Everywhere else in the New Testament, Jesus is sitting at the right hand of heaven. Ephesians 120, Colossians 3 1, 1st, Peter 3, 22,

Hebrews 1-3, Hebrews 113, Hebrews 1-13, Hebrews 8-1, Hebrews 10, 12, Hebrews 12, 2. And the reason I'm bringing that up is it said so many times he's seated at the right hand of God. This is the only place where when Stephen looked up, he saw him standing at the right hand of God. Make of it what you will. But I don't believe in accidents or coincidences. this got his attention. And I really believe it's because Stephen stood up and did something that was incredible for the kingdom of heaven. Despite opposition, despite the risk to his life, he didn't waver.

And then when they did kill him in his last moments, he's literally doing the exact same response that Jesus had. So I found that fascinating that when it said Paul, but Saul began to destroy the church, it was, it's a stronger work, because you think, well, what does that mean? Which is why I looked it up. It's like, destroyed the church. He was going house to house, urban warfare, dragging off men and women and putting them in prison. I mean, it was it was a persecution of like a craze man. You know, when you think of a, you know, a scary beast in the woods,

trying to hunt you down and kill you. Yeah, which is which when you read, you read his words in 1st Corinthians 15, first 9, it makes a lot of sense when you, when you understand the level of depravity and just hatred. Maybe that's the wrong word, zeal that he had. He says, for I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle because I persecuted the Church of God.

In Galatians 1 13, he says, You have heard of my former life in Judaism how I persecuted the Church of God violently and tried to destroy it. Philippians 3.6. As to zeal, a persecutor of the church, as the righteousness of their law, blameless. He was the Jew of all Jews. the Pharisee of all Pharisees, 1 Timothy 113.

Though formerly, I was a blasphemer, persecutor, an insolent opponent, but I received mercy because I had acted in ignorance and an unbelief. And I think that when you start to really marinate on the Apostle, or Saul, and then just the idea that God would choose this guy to bring the gospel, to the Gentiles is mind-blowing because this is a guy who was doing everything that he could to purify Judaism and exclude everybody from being a part of it. And God's like, nope, I'm going to use you. The least likely person that we, any of us would choose, that's the one that God chose.

Well, I've told you all before, I've mentioned this two or three times through the years of us doing this podcast. The movie, Paul the Apostle, which was directed by the same guy that directed the blind, Zach. Andrew Hyatt, good friend of ours. And I'm telling you, the central theme of the movie is Paul later in life, of course, he's relating to Luke, you know, so he can write these books and all this. But it's him reflecting as he gets older on just what he did to his brothers and sisters. And to Jay's point, I mean, think if you're the ravager and then your conscience now has been totally cut, and now you're, one of the ravaged, which is what happens to him. I mean, just think about what that would be like

through over the course of your life. For two whole years, Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him, boldly and without hindrance. He preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ. That's the end of Romans, right? Yep. That's how he ended it up.

Yep. And he knew when he stretched his neck across that chopping block. What was he ever on the wrong? side and what he went through to get on the right side. Yeah. He said, here I am persecuting the church. I don't know why, but I get it now. Yeah.

Well, my point is to go back to what y'all said, maybe one of the reasons we're not experiencing this type of persecution is we're not being bold enough. Yeah, that's true. I'm just saying. Yeah. That's the first point. The second point is I was going to do.

do this in Acts 5, but I'm glad I waited until we got to Acts 8. There's another interesting thing that happens is angels start showing up. Now, we read it in Acts 5, but we didn't talk about it, and I'll read that one again. In Acts 517, when the high priest and all his associates who were members of the party of the Saddachies, they were filled with jealousy. And you remember the contact this is all over this uh you know raising the they had raised the the the cripple and made him walk in acts three and four and then you have the you know anonice and safara incident and now they're just doubling down yeah and so we have opposition but they arrested the apostles and put them in the public jail but during the night an angel of the lord

opened the doors of the jail and brought them out go stand in the temple courts he said and tell the people the full message of this light well in acts eight after this persecution when you get to verse 26 which we'll get to in detail you know philip one of the seven here who's had the apostles lay hands on him and evidently they've given him this power to do miracles and signs and wonders and we'll read all that but and now he's got an angel saying go south to the road which is that's one thing but then the story continues and he says hey go stand over by that chariot uh where's that somewhere in this story first 28 or 9 yeah 29 the spirit told uh i think in the

the version I read last night, it said an angel said, Go Steering by the Spirit. I have to look that up. But anyway, here's an angel. And the reason I'm bringing this up is, which led me to read Joe Beam's book again. You know, we had him on the podcast. But we really didn't.

Seeing the unseen? Team the unseen. And which I brought. But he had an interesting point. And it came from Acts 12, which we'll get to. And I want to read it to you. And then I'll make an application here of what we're talking about. So in Acts 12, let's see, did I write this down?

This is when Peter was arrested. Yeah. And they were going to execute him. Let me see where that is in Acts 12, where he says when they're in prison and an angel comes in. It's first eight. And says, It's a, he punched him in the side. Yeah, there, here it is.

Verse seven. Now, watch this. Suddenly an angel of the Lord appeared in a light shown in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him up. Quick, get up, he said, and the chains fell off Peter's wrist. Now, I'm sure you've read that before, but I had never stopped and thought about it, the implications of this. All right, if you're an angel, and even in Hebrews 1, you know, when it says Jesus was made a little less than the angels, which meant humans are not as powerful as angels, and you see the power that they have.

I mean, go back to the book of Job, and a lot of this, you know, Joe Beam's done a wonderful job, of showing how angels can inflict problems in your world. your life. I mean, just, just think about Job. They afflicted his body with sores. He rallied the, they rallied the nations to, to, uh, attack. Remember that? Oh, yeah. Lost all his possessions, lost all his kids. He, they affected the weather. A big wind came up. That was another point he made. And the Hebrews one says, uh, and it's a quote from Psalm that the angels can be wind and fire. Because you remember the burning bush, it says that an angel spoke from the flame. So a lot of times even on earth, you see a storm.

Well, it might be an angel. I mean, they did it there. When did that stop? You got Hebrews 132 that says, be careful when you entertain strangers because you might have entertained angels. So my point is they do all these things. Well, why is this angel saying, get up quick? what could anybody do to him do to the angel? So Beam had a good point.

He said, think about it. Why would an angel who just allowed these chains to fall off without a key? And also when they come out of the city, he opens a door without pushing it. Also remember he's doing this and there's a soldier on each side of Peter. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, there's also two guys sitting there. I should have read that. Yeah.

Yeah, that's verse 6. Herod was to bring him to trial. Peter was sleeping between two soldiers bound with two chains. But what I'm saying is... Which you know what that meant. They've had so many episodes with these disciples and with Jesus. They were like, oh, we're not going to have any slipping away and disappearing. There's going to be a soldier sitting on both sides.

He's going to be chained up. Yeah, but out... If we had a steel cage match with these two Roman soldiers against the angel, Who's going to win? So he's not saying quick because of that. Right. Weed that out of your mind. So I'm speculating because Joe Beam is speculating, but he's like,

you got to realize that there's two kinds of angels, those that are good, that are messengers from heaven, sent to minister to us, that's Hebrews 114. But there's also those that got kicked out of heaven. And they're all conspiring against the Lord's people. So his point was, and the reason I'm going through this long thing about why the angel's showing up, because they don't like what's happening. The reason that Saul is ravaging the church, the reason there's so much persecution, there's so many problems is because they've stirred up the spiritual forces of evil,

think Ephesians 6, the powers, the spiritual forces of darkness in the heavenly realms that have been cast to earth to Rome and pillage. So I do think that that's important here. And I think in Acts 12, he made an important point because there's no doubt in my mind that the reason there was so much persecution is they basically started a spiritual warfare fight between things that we can't see. necessarily. Right.

So when people say, well, I'm not sure I've seen an angel or, you know, I mean, we tend to talk about angels as just cute things that, you know, may go around. But I'm telling you, this all happened doing the same thing that we're supposed to be doing, which is declaring Jesus boldly in the world. Yeah. No, I agree. So if you want to see an angel, start there. Yeah.

There's a good chance. There's a good chance that when you hit a nerve, when you hit a nerve, guess what? Bad things are going to happen to you. Which is the reason I think people don't do it. Yeah. I think you're right. They're afraid. They're afraid.

I think what we often want. Yeah, we're clamoring for the encounter with the spiritual world. But it's like, to your point, Jace, yeah, be careful what you asked for. I heard a talk that I believe it was actually at the Tulsa Workshop that Francis Chan gave a few years ago. And he was talking about, like, I want to see that world. And he felt like the Lord had clearly said to him, you're not in the position of being persecuted like these guys. Where you're not in that level, I'm paraphrasing what he said, the battle, you know, you're not in that level of the battle. But I think that there is a danger of kind of over-emphasizing that realm, but there's a,

a, there's also a danger of under-emphasizing it. I pulled up this CS Lewis quote, I thought made a great point. He said there are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils, and that can be translated to the whole spiritual world. One is to disbelieve their existence, and the other is to believe and fill an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. So I think it's the difficulty of when you start talking about this. is that it is somewhat of a balance.

Like, you know, there are, there are some, there's some stuff going on out there, but at the same time, you know, we're not completely incapable of having responsibility and, and what we're supposed to do. But I think the emphasis, to Jason's point is key, the emphasis is on what, like,

are you really engaged in the battle? If you're engaged in the battle, you're probably going to see things that you would have never seen if you hadn't been engaged. Well, and the main thing is, You just have to stick to your conviction. That's why I told the story about Isaac. I mean, when you start to lose your way, the persecution of others can inspire you and say,

you know what? That guy stood up. And so that's what I want to do. I got another CS Lewis quote I saw this morning, Zach. It said when the crowd is heading toward a cliff, they'll think they get the man a fool who's running the other way. And I think that's true about any of us. You have to stand on your convictions and say, no, what we're doing is the right thing. And so, you know, what's interesting, even though these people scattered other than the apostles,

which is interesting, James mentioned that earlier, that they stayed on. And I don't know if it's because they felt like, you know, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. But when these people scattered, they didn't leave the faith. They just left Jerusalem because that's what we see happens. The gospel went with them. So it wasn't like they left what they believed in. I mean, they took it with it. They took it with it.

It was like stepping on the fire, but sending the ambers out into the adjacent field and exactly fire in a lot of other places, which, which, you know, looking back with hindsight 2020, we can say that they, they couldn't put out the fire because it's still going all across the world. But I think it's key, too, to understand that that God does expand his kingdom through suffering. And we want to, well, I can speak for me. I don't want to suffer. Like that, I don't like the idea of suffering. But if you look at how God accomplished salvation, it was through the suffering servant. It was through the suffering Christ, through the crucifixion of Christ. He did vindicate him through the resurrection.

But then you see now the expansion of the gospel going into all the earth. How did it happen? It happened through the suffering of Stephen. It happened through the persecution that broke out against the church. This guy named Saul breaking into people's homes and persecuting them, forcing them into Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth, the ends of the Roman Empire, where they went, taking the gospel with them. That happened through suffering. And then eventually it was going to happen. Paul was going to suffer.

Paul was going to be struck blind on the road to Damascus. And here coming up in a couple chapters. And so you see, like even Paul then becoming this. guy. But well, I think so often what we want, at least what I want is, man, I want, I want, I want the benefits of the kingdom, but I don't want to suffer. I don't want to suffer. And I think we're missing out when we, when we try to avoid the suffering that God may have intentionally. You mentioned Job. I mean, God ordained that. I mean, that's a hard truth. Well, and even, even remember Jesus even told Anonis when Anas was like, are you sure about this,

Lord, I'm paraphrasing me. So are you sure about it? You know who this guy is, right? And he said, I will show this man how much he must suffer for my name. So to your point, he even said that. That's a hard truth. That was the point I was going. I mean, look, the angels start showing up.

We should talk about it. When somebody's ravaging the church, we just talk about it. Because the bottom line is you see that these men and women trusted God no matter what happened. But a lot of times where it looked hopeless, they're in jail, sleeping between two prisoners. And you think, well, this is pretty well the end of the road here. There's no getting out of that one. I'm, I'm, he's, what is he thinking when you put yourself in that situation? Well, I'm being like Jesus, because the next thing that happened is a crawled or guillotine. I mean, it's over. And then what happened? Bam. But there what, there did come a day where he was

crucified upside down. history tells us. So that's why I'm bringing this up. Still, there is a, somewhere in your faith, you've got to say, you know, I'm going to trust God. But to act like this is not going on and spiritual warfare is not happening, angels are real. I'm sure they're around us at all times. But to Zach's point, you know, Colossians 218 says, don't let the worship of angels or false humility disqualify you for the prize. And you remember in Glacian, Warrant one where it says even if we or an angel should preach a gospel contrary to the one you heard, let him be eternally condemned. So, which makes you think there could be some evil

angels out there preaching a contrary gospel. I mean, I don't know what else that could mean. You remember Paul when he, insert Corinthians 12, 7, when a messenger of Satan came and tormented him, a thorn in his flesh, he pleaded, you know, three times for God to take it away. just bringing that up to say, yeah, if you're bold, that's awesome. But the reason you're bold is because you're trusting God. You've got to make a decision. If this is the birthplace of the church and this is what the kingdom looks like, you just need to go ahead and wrap your head around. You're going to be persecuted because we're not going to be quiet about Jesus. That's right. So we got to get it out of the building mentality and this idea of separation of church

and stayed, and, you know, I don't know who ever came up with that, but they didn't get it from the book of Acts. No, they didn't. I was thinking on the other side of that, because we're kind of going back and forth on this, how you hold this concept of angels in tandem and the spiritual world. There was that other texts where, uh, that talks about the archangel Michael, and it says that he did not, he did not bring a slanderous accusation against the devil when they were in a dispute over the body of Moses.

So you have this, I mean, that's not something that's like some hyper spiritual language. Like, this is a real conversation. I was trying to find that verse. Dude. Yeah, it's in June. And it goes along with what I was going to say, Zach, to your point, that angels are not omnipotent. You know, Joe Beam did a good job in his book about it, which means they're not all powerful. They're not obnicious.

They're not all-knowing. They're not omnipresent, you know, everywhere. You're dealing with just. And that includes safe. because he is the threat is real but you're like but I have a responsibility to trust God I'm going to die anyway why not do it in the name of the Lord I mean if that's how you go well that we've said that's the key in the name of the Lord let's it's what the verse says here but even the archangel Michael this is Jude 1 9 when he was disputing with the devil

about the body of Moses did not himself dare to condemn him for slander, but said, the Lord rebuke you. And you think about that, that, like, I always get really nervous when you taunt the devil. I've heard it done in church. And I'm like, man, at the Archangel Michael is not doing it, I'm not going to do it. Exactly. But where does he transfer the power to? The Lord, he said, but the Lord rebuk you, which this goes into our whole conversation

we've been having about miracles, too. Like, we got to remember this authority, it's God's authority. You have to remember, like, it is, it is the Lord's authority. The Lord rebuke you. It's the supremacy of Christ. And so I think this verse in Jude, though, gives like a real, like, hey, guys, this is a real realm that you should respect and not take lightly and not make fun of. Yeah. What's amazing is if you read Daniel 10, I won't go through it because we're almost out of time.

But, you know, Daniel prays and an angel shows up. And it's a very interesting conversation. And he's like, because Daniel is so terrified. Right. I mean, this same Daniel that was in the Lions Den and all this. But he's terrified because it's just the appearance was. Terrified. Yeah.

But it's so funny. The angel's like, yeah, I would have been here sooner, but I got held up with. I wasn't here three weeks ago. But I got held up with this king somewhere because there was another angel, I'm assuming. an evil angel that he was doing battle with. But hey, I'm here. But it made me think, like, sometimes when we pray and we, you know, we always think, and Joe Bean made this point also, we either think, yes, no, or not, not yet,

or an angel's been delayed on the way. Like it was a traffic holiday. It's like, yeah, I got hung up a couple of days. But I think these are things that are cool to talk about, but it has to lead you to the fact that we have to trust God. especially when we're declaring that Jesus is lower to the world, which is what the kingdom is supposed to look like. All right.

We're out of time. Welcome to the Jay's roller coaster today. That's what we call it. Wild beast and animal. Jesus, right? You know what? We stayed in action. We kind of kept it in the neighborhood.

We kept it to three verses. We did. That was good. We did well. So we'll try to do better next time. We'll see him on the show. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes.

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