Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 926 | Jase Calls Out Misguided Churches, Judgmental Christians & Should You Get Rebaptized?

Episode Date: July 22, 2024

Jase breaks down some common misguided attitudes of both modern and ancient churches, and Phil is glad he left a life of belligerence for a life of peace. The most interesting man in the world is Jase’s best buddy, but he’s keeping his identity to himself. The guys discuss re-baptism, balancing grace with good works, legalism, and how so many people view the Bible from a judgmental perspective. In this episode: Ephesians 2, verses 1-10; 1 Corinthians 13, verses 12-13; John 1, verse 4 -- Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. The last podcast, Jay's told the story of Randy, now our favorite guy on the podcast that Zach and I will meet at some point. I dubbed him the most interesting man in the world. He's useful, Jays. Useful. Well, I mean, to be fair, I mean, I feel like we shepherded the story because it was headed another direction about another story that shall not be named. So we kind of, me and now, we shepherded the conversation. We kept it in the grace realm. So Randy, which ended up being a Holy Spirit moment because it was like a great picture

of the text we were talking about. So it's interesting. So Jay's, when he was experiencing this act of grace and kindness from her brother, I was down here in Gulf Shores and a couple of ladies that at least and I have met, through the years. One of them, we know. We hadn't met the other one until yesterday. They came over. They had sent a message ahead and said, asked if I would baptize them in my swimming pool. And of course, the answer is always yes. The water is always ready. And so when they got here, we sat down and had a chat about it because, you know, one of them, especially is a dear friend and

she's an older lady and a believer. And so I was curious. I was. I was like, so tell me why you guys are wanting to get baptized. And so one of them had been sprinkled as a child, I guess as an infant. And the other one had been super young. And so they both just kind of went through the process of talking about how their mind had worked. And they've been studied in the book of Matthew for a year. And they had done some look into baptism. And they said, you know, we just feel like we need to be immersed because we never have.

And so we had a great discussion. I took them to Acts 18 and 19, which is what I thought. kind of that idea of when you come to something, maybe an understanding a little more adequately. And what made me think about in terms of what we're talking about in this subject of grace, I told them, I said, baptism, you don't want to look at it like a legalistic thing. You know, like, well, but, you know, if I haven't done it the right way or if I've learned something since, I said, you want to have the same heart that Apollo's had in Acts 18 and those disciples did when Paul ran up in Acts 19. they only knew the baptism of John.

And then they got a better understanding who Jesus was. And they said, you know, we think we need to do this again or do this, you know, because this is what we've learned. So I said, it's a great way to look at it. When you're talking about change in your life and submitting your will to God, it's about learning more than it is about legal status. And so, and that's what these two, there were two tenderhearted believers who had come to a better understanding. and I've been there in the same boat they were when I was a younger man. And they just wanted to let God know. We're all in.

And so we had that moment here, and it was beautiful. And so I told them, I said, this is what kingdom living is all about. We were at my house. We had a great spiritual discussion. We had prayer together. We worship together. And both of them were immersed in my swimming pool, you know, right after the grandkids just got out of swimming in it.

And I thought, this is what King. kingdom living is about. It's about wanting our walk with God to be not only known to ourselves, but known to other people. So, Jace, I thought about it in relationship. You were talking about in the last podcast about that. And I had that same kind of grace moment of understanding this idea about watching people's commitment to God and bending their will to His. And it's a beautiful thing to see. Oh, it really. It really is. And that's why I was saying, it's like doing things that are unsolicited with zero selfish ambition is very rare to see on our planet. And so I brought that story up because it just happened two days ago.

I haven't seen Randy except one time when he volunteered because he heard we were doing an event to share Jesus with other people. And he's like, what can I do to help? I send him to Missy since he was coordinated. isn't it? And well, there he was. He was there as a servant. Well, the next time I seen, he caught me Apollosus catfish, even though he didn't know that I was as low as I could go physically with back problems. And so it was a, it was an act of grace that I appreciated. That's why we spent so much time talking about when you give somebody a gift of a clean to Apollosus catfish,

especially when you're not feeling well. This is top shelf moments. Because number one, it's hard to do. Send somebody out and say, go catch Benopoulosus catfish. Well, you've just narrowed the pool of the world down to a few hundred people that could actually do that. And then clean it properly. Well, now you're down to what did you say, five people?

So I was just in a feeble way when you start talking about God's gift. The perfect fish and the perfect fry. Yeah. This is not of yourselves. You know, I'm like, God's gift is so much greater than that. But me trying to find a way to illustrate that in a small way. But it came from a spirit-filled person who has got the big picture. And that's why these things are good.

I was trying to make these illustrations. I mean, we see it on earth just, you know, you see parents going to a burning building trying to save their kids or whatever. You're like, whoa, why would they do that? Because love is at the root of it. Or even parents who, you know, a kid goes off the rails and they're willing to forgive and to show incredible love. But I think those are signs that God is real because those things, they do not happen. and we're made in the image of God. And it's happening all over our world, and we see that.

So I was just trying to wrap her head around. Well, I think someone might listen to this story and think, I think you're stretching a little bit, Jace, with seeing that as an act of grace of the catfish. But I actually think that it's kind of the problem with the church is that we'd actually limited grace to just are getting out of hell free card, or just our justification side of it. When I think the text here is, I think it's expanding the concept of God's grace into life with God.

So it's not simply that we are saved from our sin. It is that. I'm not guilty anymore. And I stand before Holy God not guilty because of the finished work of Christ. But it's also about life in him. Because if you read the context of where Ephesians 2 ends, it's that language about dwelling with God, about being in this new temple that Christ himself is the cornerstone of. And it's much more about life with God and life in God and participation in life with God.

It's so funny if most people when they go to Ephesians 1 and 2, I've heard like this is the text you go to when you want to make a case against works. And it says it right here. It's not a result of works so that no one may boast. But what does the very next verse say in chapter 2 verse 10? It says, His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in.

There's that predestination of what we are predestined to do is to be conformed into the image of the sun to do good works. And it's not do good works to be saved. That's the byproduct of this. And so when you look at Ephesians 2, the picture here is that he starts off with this alienation that we're dead in our sin. We're dead in our trespasses. is we're following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work and the sons of disobedience among whom all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and we're by nature of children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

That picture is like all those verses in the Bible, like, for example, in James where it says that each one is dragged away and enticed by his own evil desires. There's the verse, I think it's in Jude that says, like, creatures of instinct. It's the Romans one passage with a continual, there's a pass about continual less for more. There's all these ideas. But think about that children or wrath concept. Like, this is, I think this is much more than God with a barrel of wrath in a ladle, and he's scooping it out and pouring it on us. I think it's much more about by nature, they are,

children of wrath. It's that language in Romans 1 where the wrath of God that was being revealed, according to Paul in Romans 1, was, here's what it was. He says he turned them over to themselves. So God's wrath in that sense was like, I'm going to let you do what you want to do. I'm going to let you follow your own evil passions of your flesh. And I'm going to let you carry out the desires of your body and of your mind. And the end of that road is dead. death, isolation, it's sterile, it doesn't reproduce life. It's just, it's just death. It's a death work, as Carl Truman calls it. But the dichotomy here, or the transition here is verse four, but God being rich in mercy because of the great love, which he has loved us, even when we were

dead in our transpassas. That's a very, I said in the last podcast, mirror language in Romans 5, while we were sinners, while we were enemies, Christ died of course, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved and raised up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. And here's the reason, verse 7, so that in the coming ages, he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace and kindness towards us in Jesus Christ. Why did he do it? because he wants to show us how amazing he is. That's what we get to participate in. But then he then shows the world through us.

Yes. The Manifold is. Look, this is in every book, not just Ephesians. I'll give you an example. I may it just hit me. And I didn't really prepare to do this. But I think it's fascinating when you read that for we are God's workmanship, creating Christ Jesus to do good works.

When you look at 2nd Corinthians, we all know the problems that was going on at the church at Corinth. And they had received the same things we've received, and they had received these miraculous gifts of the spirit. And it became about what they received. And so he writes another letter in 2nd Corinthians. and I find this fascinating. If I just started in chapter one and just picked out a few all the way through six, it's amazing that you see the same thought line

that you see here in Ephesians 1 and 2. So if I started in verse 18 of chapter 1 of 2nd, he said, surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not yes and no. because you got to remember the coming out of law and even in our churches today there's a lot about thou shall not do this just just think about when especially when you were kids coming up always just remember here's okay what what is the christian life about and people say well it's about there's some things you need to do and there's some things you can't do it's it's yes and no well

watch what he says. It's not yes and no. For the son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by Silas and Timothy was not yes and no. But in him, it's always been yes. And that's a very hard thing to wrap your head around. But it's like, look what God has allowed you to do, what you can say yes to in Jesus, which is Jesus for. Let me add, let me add to that. Why would you say yes? Because that's the question. Why would I say yes?

Well, why would I say yes? I would say yes because I want to. Well, why would I want to? Because I would desire whatever it is I'm saying yes to. Well, why would I desire whatever it is I'm saying yes to because of this, Ephesians 2-7, because he has shown the immeasurable riches, riches. riches of his grace and kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. So that's the transition that happens with life in Christ is you move away from thou shalt not and to what now I can do whatever I want,

which is him. I can be in him and do the things that he wants me to do. That's the good works that God's prepared us for. That's the big transition. So then he says exactly what Ephesians 113 and 14 says in verse 21 when it says, now it is God he makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his spirit in our hearts as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come. So then he continues that same theme line and to just pick out another in chapter two. And he makes this comment in verse 11 about be careful that the evil one does not outwit you. And he starts talking about we are ministers of this new covenant. Now watch what he says in chapter 2 and verse 14. But thanks to be to God, who always leads us in triumphal possession

in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. Well, that's what I'm getting at. When does he do that? He does that right now through spirit-filled people. And then he goes on to say, for we are to God, the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved, and those who are perishing. To the one, we are the smell of death. To the other, the fragrance of life. Who's equal to such a task? This is the same idea he's getting at in Ephesians 210.

It's your response to grace. Unlike so many, we don't peddle the word of God for profit. It's not about money or fame. And on the contrary, in Christ, we speak before God with sincerity like men sent from God. this is the true response to grace it's way more than he's just forgiving you he's now using you to point people to this true knowledge which we spent a whole podcast that about what that means about what that means and just to give your illustration to that it's like you could do this

with a doctor look a doctor could come and speak about all the things he knows but if he actually never healed somebody or used it, would that do any good? You would just have all this not at some point it has to become relational and real. It's like the most embarrassing thing we do as a society that I know of is we made a sport out of bodybuilding. These guys who have all these muscles, they get on stage and they're all just torquing. They're not using their Orsci or twerking. Whatever they do. They're not using their muscles to rescue kids from a car, you know.

No, they're just saying, look, look. And I think that's the difference in knowing a Savior and being him on earth, which is what he just got through said. We have become him through the Spirit He's given us and his redemptive work in our lives to make us new creations. But we're actually doing this. We're not standing on a street corner in our building and like, look at what we know. We're flexing all our theology. And look how.

Well, yeah, it's so true, Jay. Think about the rich young ruler when he says to Jesus, what do I have to do to inherit eternal life? And I'm paraphrasing here, so don't hold me accountable too much on this. But Jesus doesn't say, do, you don't have to do anything. He actually tells me to do something. And he says, sell everything you have them. Come follow me.

Come follow me. And I think that what's happened in a lot of the church as of the last, you know, there's, and I understand why some of this has happened, but we tend to put grace as opposed to works, almost as if grace negates work. When the truth is, I think what Paul's saying here is grace doesn't negate works. Grace enables work. That's the point that he's making. And grace enables us to pursue God and to build, be part of the, we are his workmanship

created in Christ for good works. But to do what is what I'm saying. It must be to reveal the actual person of God. Yes. Which is what he's also doing. Which is what he's doing. He's revealing to us. And I think that, you mean, you're listening to this, people might think, well, how do I, like,

I want to be a part of the beautiful kingdom of God. how that's the verse 8 it is by grace you have been saved through faith and the way Paul says it in romans 5 i think because the question is well how do i get into this grace how do i access this grace that paul's talking about i don't i think the answer is pretty clear in in romans 5 this is the way says it romans 5 1 therefore since we have been justified by faith we have peace with god through our lord Jesus Christ, through him, we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And sometimes I hear that progression flipped, but I think the biblical progression here is grace is

here on one end, and the way we access, according to Paul here, the way we access this grace is by faith. So, but what does that mean? We trust in this revelation of God. We submit to this revelation of God, and that's the pathway into grace. It's going to be by faith into this grace that we now stand. I think that's important. It's important, but you also got to move to, it's synonymous in Ephesians.

It's like, yes, this was the process, but then you're safe to. You're safe from one through three. You used to follow the ways of the world, follow the desires you without in control anyone, but God in his love, just like Ephesians 1-4, in love, he had this plan all along. But then he doesn't take a time out or there's no transition. It all happens together. You're saved from something. Into something.

And you're saved into something. That's why he keeps saying. You have the spirit. And now you're going around and God is spreading the fragrance of. the knowledge of him through you in a triumphal possession on earth. And here's part of the beauty of that. What or we would rather say who you're saved into and what? Because you're saved into his kingdom and you're saved into him, the king.

But that is not, that's not a something that is a one and done. That is a continual because the language here at the end of Ephesians 2 says it as a continual thing. Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone in whom the whole structure being joined together grows into the Holy Temple of the Lord. In him, you are also being built together into a dwelling place of God by the Spirit. So the language here is progressive. It's not, this is something that will continue. And I actually think it will continue even post second coming. I don't think we are ever going to exhaust the full measure of God's riches and grace and kindness towards us in Christ Jesus.

I don't think we ever exhaust it because I think he's infinitely good. And those riches, we will continue to see them in greater measure for all of eternity. And we will never exhaust the fullness of who this God is. No, I agree with that. But I'm saying he does seem to be making a point that you're making him known now. I mean, I'm going to get to that in the Second Corinthians thing here. Yeah, I was just going to say, I was going to, because I want you to continue that. It's so good, Jason, second Corinthians.

It is a beautiful picture. To Zach's point, I think James makes it so poignantly in James, too, when he says it. Now, he uses the word faith in deeds, but it's grace that supplies the faith, right? So the idea is that is a continual part of who we are. And think about it. James wrote that who was. James was the brother of Jesus who at one time didn't believe in Jesus. Remember, none of his family did.

And so he would never forego Christ's power to say that we by nature work in Christ. And yet he made that parallel that that's exactly what we're called to do. And so I think it's just a beautiful illustration of that. My point was those acts, people get so caught up in the process of how that all works. but then we got caught up in the process of how all that works. And, you know, I'm just looking at it like you were outside of Christ. There's nothing you could do because you're basically living for yourself. I mean, you don't even have to acknowledge that.

Those three things he said, you just follow the desires of your humanness on earth. And where does that result? Yeah. Yeah, see where that ends. So God did this, which is why you have strange verses like Romans 5,8, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. It's a demonstration of his love. So all of a sudden, you say, oh, there is a God?

And he loved me this much? Yes. So I don't think you have to get caught up in the actual process of then, now what? Because then you're getting back to yes and no. Well, I think that's what Roman 6 is about. You hear that and you say, well, I'm offering myself to him. I'm surrendering however you want to word that through faith. You know, you can say all the right words that I'm just saying in the real world.

You're changing Lord's here. You're changing worlds. You're changing spirits. And it is stressed. It is stressed as you do. these things, I'll urge you as have to have a life worthy of the calling you've received because some people get carried away and they'll get loud, they get belligerent. I've been there and made that mistake.

Be completely, which is quite the task, humble and gentle, completely humble and gentle by faith and be patient bearing with one another in love make every effort to keep the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace then he goes on and talks about one spirit one hope one

there's a lot of factors that come together but we should never be loud from time to time that Jesus was never belligerent no and that's my point I'm getting frustrated in this discussion because I feel like we're doing the same thing a lot of churches do, and I pick Corinth on purpose. How could you be a church and have to be reminded that the gospel is about Jesus?

You're like, well, we all know that. So I'm trying to give you an illustration in 2 Corinthians, too. Everything he writes in the first six chapters has one thought. You've missed Jesus as an actual person. You're arguing about rights and wrongs. It's like, no, it's just yes in Jesus. So they're arguing about the old covenant, the new covenant. He says, no, God is leading you and you're spreading this same person that you forgot was the gospel that's yes to.

So then he, look, he moves on to chapter three and he gets back into the written law versus what he's now introducing in Jesus. So it's like, I'll just pick a verse, 3-3. You show that you are a letter from Christ. He's going back to the same person. He's like, oh, you're so consumed with the law that was written with actual letters. He's like, but you're a letter from Christ. Why is he using such a peculiar analogy that your life is a letter from Christ as opposed to what? things written on tablets of stone but not on human hearts.

What's you trying to get them to see? You're obsessed with keeping the law, but your whole life is a letter from Christ to the world. So watch what he says it. Well, what's the point of him doing that? Well, he brings up Moses. And watch what he cuts to in verse 310. Whenever anyone turns to the Lord, this actual person, Jesus,

The veil is taken away, and now the Lord is the Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is, well, there's freedom, which kind of goes into this. It's not about yes and no, but in Christ it's yes. And we who with unveiled faces, because Moses, when he went into the presidents of God, you know, God, the Father, is such radiating energy that his actually, actual face would glow, which is unrelatable for humans, which is why Jesus became a human as God in human form. But it says, we reflect, we, the Lord's glory, and we're being transformed into his likeness with ever increasing glory, which comes from the Lord. Are we talking about

later or now? Is you talking about later or now on the earth? It's talking about now. You're talking about right now. Because then look what he says. And just like Ephesians 2, he says we have, in chapter 4 verse 2, we've renounced secret and shameful ways. Just like in Acts 19 in Ephesus where all of a sudden they see this power happen when they're trying to cast out the demon. And what do they do? They started burning sorcery books and confessing their sins.

Because they're like, oh, wait a minute, God is real. I can't, I can't hide from God. And so what do we do? We set forth the truth plainly, and we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it's veiled to those who are perishing. And now we have again this contrast of the evil spirit versus God. 4-4. The God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers that they cannot see the gospel, the glory of Christ.

for we do not preach ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as servants as Jesus' sake. He gets to verse 7. We have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. I mean, I'm three chapters into this, or four chapters, and he's saying the same thing over and over and over and over again in every way conceivable, that it's about Christ and making him known. It's about Christ and making him known. It's about Christ and making him known. That's what we're doing.

We're hard pressed on every side. He goes through all that. So he gets to verse 13. I believe, therefore I have spoken with that same spirit of faith. We also believe and therefore speak. Because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will raise us also. All this is for your benefit so that the grace that is reaching more and more, Well, now we're back to where we started.

It's not that he just saved you from it. He saved you to this grace being declared so that the presence of God would be known in the world through Jesus right now. So he gets to chapter five. And he says, verse two, meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling. So he gets into what's going to happen next. Because when we're clothed, we will not be found naked. And I think that's an obvious reference to what happened in the garden. You remember what was the first thing that happened when they decided not to trust God in the purpose that they were made?

Well, they looked down and they realized they were naked. Because now they had become their own gods, which is exactly what he's referring to here, which is why God then would send Jesus. So he goes on to say, verse 5 of chapter 5, It is God who has made us for this very purpose to have a heavenly dwelling with mortality swallowed up and ended, and we can live forever with God. He made us for this very purpose, and here it is again, and has given us the spirit who, as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

So then he talks about the judgment scene. We all stand before judgment, and I've done this before, but I just think it's so profound. chapter 5 verse 11 since then we know what it means to fear the Lord we try to persuade men it's the same thing this is what God uses us for we are not trying to commend ourselves to you again verse 14 for Christ's love compels us because we are convinced that one died for all and therefore all died. So it's like you have this realization once you get in Christ. Oh, God rescued me because of his gift of grace.

Well, he did this for everybody. He loves everybody. So what am I going to do? Just wait for him to come back. No, I'm going to go tell everybody, hey, God is for you, not against you. Look at what he's done for you. And so then he gets to verse 16. So from now on, we regard no one.

from a worldly point of view, though we once regarded Christ in this way. We do so no longer. He wasn't just some Jew who built houses. He is the son of God. And so that's what we're telling people in the world. So he says, therefore, if anyone's in Christ, he's a new creation, the old is gone, new has come. All this is from God who reconciled to himself through Christ. That's what the gift of God's grace is, and then gave us the ministry of reconciliation, that God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting men's sins against them. He's committed us that message. We're there for Christ's ambassadors. And then chapter six, verse one, as God's fellow workers, we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. I mean, we're six chapters

deep into the same 10 verses of Ephesians 2. It is the exact same thought. That's all I was saying. Yeah. And in fact, if you keep going, because I was looking ahead, when he gets to the end of chapter 6, he talks about how can you take that wonderful grace from God and try to rejoin it with your old way of life? you know, and because you talk about that idea about yokes with unbelievers.

And then he says in chapter 7, he said, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. So even as he continues on with the Corinthian Church, it's the same basic principle, Jay, it's not just to the Corinthians, but to the Roman Church. Romans 1 through 3, there's no unrighteous. All is in and falls short of the glory of God. the idea that it's not in us, it has to be in Jesus. And he makes that same point here. I think that's the brilliance of what Paul's message is and the brilliance of why Jesus chose him to be the messenger.

I mean, think about it. Paul was a Hebrew of Hebrews, understood the idea of a sacrificial system that supposedly was helping them deal with sin, but then came to the realization that it didn't help with sin. they were just like everybody else. And if you read the book of Hebrews, which we studied, you understand that. The process never was right without Jesus. And so I think we get here, before he gets into this idea of unity of Jew and Gentile,

first you have to realize we're all sinners who fall short. We all need saving. And you think about it in the first century, everybody, especially every Gentile that came to Christ, all they had known was the life of idolatry and desperation. and all the things he mentions in those first three verses of chapter two. So everybody came out of that situation. 2,000 years later, we have people that at least grow up, you know, in an environment, a lot of times in a Christian family where they're trying to do the right thing.

And sometimes it's harder for them to embrace the grace of God, to be quite honest with you, because they think, you know what, I'm a pretty good person because I'm not as bad as somebody else. Exactly. I just think that to use Zach's illustration about the rich, young ruler. I mean, basically, that's our approach to this. We're like, well, tell me what I got to do. Well, God told him, but he didn't like the answer. But what is he really saying? He's like, just follow me. We get so caught up in all these theological arguments about knowledge or theology in the Bible. But when you actually read the Bible, he's using all those arguments to

point to an actual being that you can have a relationship with, which is the essence of love. And you see those three things combined in every New Testament book. It's about Jesus, it's about his love, and it's about being known for that, by that, and making that known to other human beings. I mean, you remember in 1st Corinthians 13 where he defines love, but he actually started it off saying, you know, if I had a faith that can move mountains and I can fathom all mysteries and have a knowledge, have all this knowledge, but I don't have love, I'm nothing. And then he makes this real interesting statement after he defines love, which is God,

it never fails, it always protects, it always trusts, doesn't keep a record wrong, it's not self-seeking, it's not easily angered. I mean, all these things that God defines in, Jesus on a cross and the resurrection. And he gets down to the end of that and he says, we see but a poor reflection in a mirror. This is 1312. Then we shall see face to face. And that's our struggle. That's why we're groaning, you know, Romans 8 and in 2 Corinthians 5. Because it's very hard to live in a world with all this filth and all these temptations to go after the flesh or money and all that. But, you know, we have the Holy Spirit, but we're being persecuted and we're suffering

and we're still getting sick and all this. But he says, we'll see him face to face. Now I know in part, then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. There's something more important than everything else. And that's why he said these three remain faith, hope, and love. And we can talk about how to have faith and we can talk about the hope. But he said the greatest of these is love. And that's why. love. Because basically, that's why God did this. He loved us. He sent Jesus to embody that love. We're convicted by that as humans, because all along he wants to live forever with us in love. But it has to compel. I'm not going to say we should do it. You just can't help it. You then realize, oh, this is the whole purpose that God has for humanity to point people to an actual person.

Yeah, and when you think about what you said earlier about the church revealing this and embodying this to the world, I was thinking the problem we have so often is what we call a secular, sacred divide, and we think that we only do that through sacred things, meaning the, you know, like an official Bible study or, you know, church service or, you know, a worship song or prayer. And we negate the opalusa catfish. We don't think about that. That has nothing to do.

That's what I was getting at. You're right. I was getting at being in that church parking lot, sharing a love with a brother who by no other. motivation whatsoever in life, but just God's love convicted him, changed him, made him a new creation. And now he's looking for opportunities to encourage other members of the body, to share Jesus to people who don't know Jesus. Well, that's what we all should be doing in an airport terminal, in a, you know, in a Walmart, and when you're fishing, you're looking.

for these conversations where you can declare the grace of God in Jesus. This is what we do. But you could declare the grace of God in Jesus and the glory of God simply by bringing your buddy a plate of Apollosia catfish. You can embody this in the music that you write. You can embody this in the food that you prepare at your table. You can embody this in a duck line, killing ducks. Fishing, I mean, like you guys, I think about your ministry, because I've got to witness it up close, Phil, you know, you and Kay, I mean, I'm thinking what's more important?

The actual, the Bible study that Phil had when he's sitting in his chair with his Thompson chain reference, NIV 84 Bible out with seven people sitting around listening and talking to him. Or is it more important the three hours before that of spending the day with him out in your field, out and you're out in the woods working and them. being with them and then, you know, brushing a duck line and sitting around the table, eating and cooking, it's all of it. And it's not one thing. It's all of it. It's the whole thing. And I think that's, we try to like, oh, this is the spiritual part. And this is the, you know, this is the other part. No, it's all his. And I think when we, when you, if we're going to reveal this, Ephesians 110, which is it says is a plan for the fullness of time to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth, then we might want to expand our definition

of what is kingdom things to all things, because that's what he said he's going to unite. So all things are his, all things, and so we're showing through the church, the wisdom, the manifold wisdom of God that's being known, made known through the church is in all things. It's not, there is no secular, sacred divide. Everything is sacred. It's all his. There's not a square end. of earth, of the world, the universe of cosmos, someone once said that the Lord does not cry,

mine. And I think that's the key. No, and when I look at this text, I mean, everybody has a different way they look at it, but I see him dealing with our past in those first three verses, that which we were dead, and we came to him. But then the idea of transformation in our present, you see in verses 4 through six, because everything is with Christ. And he says, we have been made alive with Christ. We have ascended with Christ. We have been seated in the heaven and realms with Christ. And listen to this some other verses. Romans 817, we suffered with Christ. Galatians 2.20, we were crucified with Christ. Colossians 2.20, we died with Christ. Romans 6.4, we have been buried with Christ.

Romans 8.30, we're glorified with Christ. So you look across Paul. all's writings, including really heavy right here in Ephesians 2, the whole idea is we're with him, the whole way. And it took me back to this one thing about, listening to this, what Jesus told Martha and John 11, you remember the setting, he's about to raise Lazarus from the dead. And she's like, well, you know, I trust you. And here's what he says to her. I am the resurrection and the life.

he who believes in me will live even though he dies and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. You're saying about you're talking about having everything covered past, present, the future. And then he looks at her and he says, do you believe this? You know, so that's his question. I thought, man, what a question for all of us when we look and see the amazing transformational power of grace and what it does for us. and what it does for us and what we now have with Christ in the heavenly realms. Everything he's gone through, we've gone through because we trust in him, which is incredible and amazing.

Well, that makes a lot more sense when you understand based on what you just said because I think, man, we're seeing a pattern here, right? What's the pattern that Christ is central to all of this? But here's the interesting thing about our God is that he's triune. So the beginning of our understanding of God, it originates with God revealing it to us through the Spirit. That's John 14 through John 17. What is he revealing a pathway into life in God?

And how do we do that? In Jesus. And so Jesus, when he says, I am the way, the truth and the life and nobody comes to the Father except through me. I mean, I think that's the declaration when it says, in Him. Like there's no other, there's not like all these paths that we can take that lead to the same God. There's one path and the path is a person and his name is Jesus. And so that's why this language, it's the most exclusive, inclusive thing you've ever known.

It's offered to everybody, regardless of anything you've done, regardless of your race, your religion, your creed, whatever. It does not matter where you come from. Christ says, I'm offering you this way. It is inclusive, but it's exclusive in that it only comes in him. And I think that's the big bite that people have to make. But when you bite that off and you taste, the Bible says, him, you will see that the Lord is good. And that is what I think the revelation that's being brought through the spirit and also being made known through spirit-filled believers. That's what it's ultimately pointing us to.

Well, Al brought up that John Levin, which surprisingly I had to. written that down because if you're going to say we're going to focus on Jesus I think we should every so often go look at what he said but in John 1 4 when it said in him was life and that life was the light of man it's a common theme and I just picked out a few talking about life you know 524 says remember when he said I'll tell you you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life. And the reason I brought this up is because that Ephesians 2-4 says, God made you alive. He's going to make us alive if we die,

but he's talking about you were dead in your sins and following, he's, he's going to make us alive. He's He has life connected here, a new life in him and a new life forever. You know, we'll get a new body. But even 10, 10, remember when he said, I come that they'll have life and have it to the full. Yeah. Well, that's what he's describing here. This life, you can be alive on this earth, even though you're in a body that's going to die. And so then when he got to John 11, he did say that Lazarus dies, and he said, I'm the resurrection and the life.

He who believes in me will live, even though he dies. But even inside the story, you know, he weeps, because you're looking at a picture of God. You know, why is he weeping? He's fixing to raise him. And then even in verse 38, when it says, Jesus wants more deeply moved. There's something powerful here. about knowing Jesus, knowing his love, even though everything's going to be okay, that just reaches down in you. That's why I brought up these illustrations about women, you know, women who will go in a burning building for their kids.

And, you know, there's just something about that kind of love that will crush you and change you and transform you and let you offer yourself to God. But what I want- And Jay's that's why I read it because I'm with you 100%. We focus more on the story about the resurrection of Lazarus, but it was really the life. That's why he said it on the resurrection and the life. Oh, it's just, it's not a rule book. It's a person being revealed as God.

And it's much more than just saying, oh, he made this statement on the resurrection of life. And the point I wanted to get to, because I know we're out of time, is, you know, it's a happy ending, you think. Oh, they take the grave clothes off of him. We're like, hey, he has that kind of power. But you know what's so disappointing is that some of the Pharisees, after they see this, they see this happen. Watch what they say in verse 48 of chapter 11, because they're like, what are we going to do? He's doing these signs. And this profound statement in 48 says, if we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come,

and look what it says, and take away both our place, temple. That's the Greek word. They'll take away our temple and our nation, because we're Jews. We have rules. We have law. We have temple. We like this. And I think in that moment, you see.

really what we're after. You never want to be 2,000 years later functioning like that, where you have Jesus on the back burner and has turned Bible reading into some theological digestion by which you know exactly what to do and what not to do and who's right and who's wrong. This is all about a person. Yeah. And if you can't embrace that, that's not on God. That's on you. You've tried to interject yourself to your own kingdom and even it could be it righteous things or religious things.

No, it's a great point. It's a great place to leave it today and we'll pick it up next time. There's a few more nuggets that are in this amazing text. We'll talk about next time on Unashamed. We'll see you there. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes.

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