Unashamed with the Robertson Family - EP 933 | Jase Issues a Warning About JD Vance's Story & Is Guilt Holding You Back from Jesus?

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

Jase connects emotionally with the life story of Republican vice presidential nominee J.D. Vance after watching the movie “Hillbilly Elegy,” but he has one heads up for the audience. Phil makes a funny during one of Jase’s illustrations, and the guys explore their viewpoints about watching movies with cuss words, following the “rules” of Christianity, and how to value empathy over tradition as Jesus did.  In this episode: Hebrews 6, verses 4-7; Hebrews 10, verses 17-29; 1 Peter 5, verse 2; -- Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed as we were talking in between. We're recording two podcasts today. You seen any interesting movies? Oh yeah. I was telling about my... I don't watch a whole lot of movies and, you know, I watch a lot of spiritual movies. I'm really excited about where we've come in that world. but you know we just had the we had our R&C

well the R&C and the former president almost got killed right which we talked about on the podcast then we did a little RNC thing so with all that going on I was like well who is this J.D. Vance and so they

Because he is a very much an unknown like I was aware because I stay pretty plugged in but a lot of the nation had no idea they had Never heard of. I had never heard of. So Missy and I watched the movie. Now, I'm going to say this right now.

I know. This is Hillbilly Elegie. There's a lot of Christians out there. And I have, you know, felt this way for years and I'm uncomfortable. There's a lot of profanity in this movie. It's a true story. This is the way they talked. Yep.

And he even said in his speech, which was about his life, he said his grandmother, Mamaw, was a woman of faith. but she had a mouth like a sailor. That was the way he described. Everybody. In the speech, that's exactly. That is a verbatim quote of what he said about his memo. So for clarity, don't go watch the movie because Jay's told you, I'm telling you right now,

if you're the type of person. Jay's disclaimer. Dear discretion, advise. This is every other word is a cuss word. It's just the way they talk. Now, look, then I was saying, it wasn't a whole lot different from my childhood. So, you know, we, we. would talk even about the Bible. I mean, even before Phil was a Christian, you know, my parents,

my grandparents were around and, and they were God-centered people. But, you know, there were moments. They had, they had, their vocabulary had words in it that would make, that, that they just used as euphemisms. And yeah, I grew up the same way. I do, I'm thinking of one right now. Don't say it, Zad. We got to be for that. I'm not going to say it, but it starts with bull. and it's a version of... Well, Granny used to say Bull Shavaki was her... That's what... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Quit bringing the people's minds to these four little words. But so I was going to say, though, what it did, it reminded me of my childhood. And I think in the redneck world, they actually talked about that in the movie. Because he kind of deemed that as offensive. Yeah, I have never been offended by being labeled a redneck. No, I mean... But it did remind me, I mean, like, his... His grandma reminded me a lot of my grandma, you know, because she basically realized no one would step up and lead their family off the cliff.

Right. And so she did. And even though. And she was bipolar, which is what we call it now. Back in the day, they called it Manate Depressive, which Zach, you know, you guys brought out in the movie to show, you know, what was like for dad and the kids, especially younger kids, your mom, to grow up in. And when she was on a manic bender is what we used to call them, but when she was on the manic side of her episodes,

I mean, she sounds a lot like J.D. Vance's. Well, I was talking about the Mamaw on the movie. Yeah, I got you. She,

she rose up and really was his mentor. I mean, he was in, you're talking about heading off a cliff. I mean, it's a rough story to watch. You know who his dad was, His mom was addicted to drugs.

But the reason I'm glad I watched it, despite having to go wash my ears out after it was over, you know, this is what's happening in America and in other kinds. This is what happens. When you're outside of Christ and the family dynamic breaks down, well, you just go out there, especially teenagers, and find a community where there is no community. I mean, he was running with the wrong, you know, crew getting into trouble. But she just rolled up her sleeves and appealed to him to make something of himself. And mainly the motivation was somebody has got to step up for this family.

I mean, we're falling apart here. So you need to go to school, you know, get off drugs and quit getting drunk. And you just need to make something of yourself. work, learn how to work, and she was a hard line. But, and it was, it's a very difficult story. But it has a happy ending. And look, the man, it just got nominated for vice president of the United States. Went to the Marine Corps.

Very smart. I mean, it's a American dream type story that he deemed himself as pretty lucky to figure out. Just because the society he was raised in didn't have much to offer. Yeah. And in the speech, he talked about that his mamma had passed just before his mom began her 10-year sobriety that she has now off a drug. So she didn't get to see that. Obviously, she didn't get to see the man he's become. The man is, you know, now going to be running for, you know, vice president of our country.

So you don't always get to see those things play out either. But his mom was at the convention. And that was a moment that made me cry. I admit it. I mean, when he pitched to her and then everybody gave her a standing ovation, and she was there in the moment as a person who had been, you know, on drugs all that time and now was clean from that. I mean, I was just so moved by that, you know.

Obviously, now there's a spiritual component, but it wasn't at the beginning. Jason was more of him going to the military and, you know, just, and this is me just knowing his story. I will say this, that so like you, I was very curious. And so I knew this book first and then movie, we're out there. So I sent Alex a text. I'm watching his speech.

And I said, you've got to order me a copy of this book. And she said, well, I've already tried to get one. You can't already get one. Everybody's trying to get this book. And then Lisa says, what book are you talking about? And I said, Hillbilly Allergies. She said, there's one next to your chair in your bedroom in a stack of books. I was like, are you kidding me?

I said, how long has they been there? She said, years. I gave it to you, Al. Are you the one that gave it to me? I've been trying to track it out. It meant a lot to him, Zach. I mean, I get a lot of reading. You're welcome.

You're welcome. Thank you, Zach. Is the book that graphic as far as the language? Have you read the book, Zach? It's been a while. I mean, it's been, I mean, it came out in 16. I mean, it was pretty raw. I mean, but it's.

I'm fixing to read it on the one next. Yeah, it'll resonate with you because like I did with me because I felt like, I mean, if there was some elements of like our childhood. hood and really kind of the early story, too, of like Phil and Granny and Paul say, yeah, it was kind of this, because, you know, I look at our family too and thought, because when he wrote the book, he wasn't in politics yet. Right. And, but it was, it was, I was thinking about the success and really the intelligence that Phil has, I mean, and mom and all the, all the seven siblings were, they all went on to do incredible things. Yeah. You know, I mean, but, but you go back to that, to.

their childhood and you think about all the man they they went through some stuff i mean like and i think that a lot of america a lot of people have gone through a lot of pain in their life and a lot of hurting problems whatever you however you want to define it but you're not i love stories that where it's like you're not stuck in that you know i mean um this i it is power but i was i was so glad that that you put that in the blind because it you could have just started with dad's life been out of control. I mean, people relate to that. They understand we get there.

But to understand what shapes people and, you know, how they come into. That's why I think this story is powerful for Vance because we look at him now. He's still only 39 years old. He's, you know, he's running for vice president. But when you understand where a person is being, it just helps you to grasp more of their personality, but also just what motivates them. And so I thought the blind was so much more powerful understanding what we all knew. mostly from stories because, you know,

we didn't get to live that part of it, made it so much more powerful to understand that, you know. I think nobody showed it, but I wrecked three vehicles totaled and walked away, but not even a scratch. Right. We show one of those scenes in the blind,

you know, but thinking about where you went, and I think that it's, someone told me this one time. I think it was a therapist told me, not my therapist, I don't have a therapist, but, you know, we had a lot of therapy people at our church. You have the Holy Spirit.

And it's okay. The ultimate therapist. It's okay if you have a therapist. It is. I don't. I have the therapist, not a therapist. I have the counselor, the Holy Spirit. I don't know why I had to clarify that.

I haven't seen the crawfish that much since the last time we ran traps, that. When you drew attention to it, it made me think that maybe you do have some psychological. Maybe you need a therapist. I don't know. I've questioned it before. I don't know. I mean, I have questioned that before. But the line that I got from this gentleman, he said, all behavior is explainable in its context.

And I thought, what does that mean? And he said, if you sit down with somebody and you look at their life, you think, man, how could you be doing what you're doing? He said, if you really sit down and get to another story, there's a reason for it. And I've thought about that throughout my life. And I had to run in with a guy one time that I can't tell you too much about it, but except that he was completely strung out on drugs. He was in a lot of criminal activity, gang stuff, all that.

We got connected to a set of circumstances. And he's in the backseat of my car. And I'd taken his girlfriend to the doctor to have. have do like ultrasound on their baby and stuff and all these things. And he and he looked at me when she got out with Jill and he said, I don't want you think I'm a bad guy. This first thing he said to me, I don't want you think I'm a bad guy. And he said, I know you've heard a lot about me. And I said, I have. And I said, let me tell you something. I said, I think everybody's a bad guy.

That's a great look. And he like looked at me. I said, I said, here's what the Bible teaches. I said, I'll call him John. I said, here's what the Bible teaches John. I know. I don't know if you're a believer or not. I don't think you are, but all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Every last one of us. I think you're a really bad guy, but I think I'm a bad guy. And I said, I would tell you another thing. I don't know your story, but I know you got one.

And I truly believe that all behavior is explainable in its context. And there's a reason why you're struggling with the things you're struggling with, but you don't have to live that way. And this hardened criminal, and I'm not kidding. He's in the back of my Jill's van. And he looks at me about a 23-year-old man, and he just starts to weep. And he lays out his life story. And I mean, and I started to cry because I'm like, whoa, man, like it was painful to hear what he had gone through the rejection from his father being molested as a kid.

I mean, it just being put in a children's home abandoned by his mom. I mean, it's just the live. And I'm just like, whoa. I said, well, yeah, I know why you're doing what you're doing. but let me tell you there's a way out. And so that conversation is an ongoing conversation. I'm going to have with this guy for about three years now. I'm praying that Lord will move on him and that he'll make a choice to go to rehab.

But I just say that to say, you know, you look at like people's stories. And I think it's easy for us just to demonize and to be so angry in our heart at our opponents. But man, sometimes you've got to think, man, people are the way they are because of things that happened to them. And God can heal that. And we don't have to be stuck in the past. Well, and that's the perfect segue to get back to where we were in the last podcast. I was in Hebrews 10, empathy. That is the word that you just described.

And that's what Jesus has for us. And that's why it became flesh. And I believe firmly that's why his humanity is what is so special to us because he never sinned. But he understands sinners because he's one of us. And that's what I was going to say. When he was meeting with the tax collectors and sinners in Luke 15 and all that, Well, you don't think he's not hearing the same kind of stuff that we're discussing. Right.

I mean, I'm around that stuff all the time. You don't, you're not going to be able to share Jesus with the world and show who Christ is if you just wall yourself off from the world. We have the Holy Spirit of God. And I think when we're talking about this idea of confidence, because I was intimidated as a teenager to be vocal. about Jesus because all my friends were absolutely deplorable. I mean, and I was too, but I wasn't to the level they were. I wasn't using filthy language. I always just thought that was kind of silly.

I mean, but, you know, I was around them. So you say, well, what changed? What changed is when I stepped up and told them just what Zach, you know, told that guy, which is what we're doing on a daily basis with people all around. That gives us confidence because we know there's a way out from this. And there's an understanding of why you're doing what you're doing. We've all been down that road. And that's why I made the point, Jay, is that from Hebrews 10,

that community always pays forward. When you understood Christ fully, you wanted the people you knew. You didn't run from them. You ran to them. And said, you've got to hear this story. In just the past two Sundays, I'd say probably I've had conversation with five, of those different guys and their families. And so now we're talking 30 plus years later,

they're solid Christian, you know, men and women because someone was willing to not run away from them but run to them. And so I think his whole point. In fact, the blind, the whole thing is couched the movie and dad talking to one of the guys that was one of the, you know, biggest negative influences in your life. But later you had an opportunity to run back to him. him to lead him to Christ, you know, because he finally got to that point.

He came to Christ and lasted about two and a half months. Yeah. Died suddenly. Yeah. He was literally in that parable dad. He was one of the ones that showed up at the last hour. Yep. And got paid the same.

Divine intervention. I shall see him again. That's right. But I think that's when in Hebrews you're seeing a detachment of this. I mean, these Jews that the Hebrew writers. talking to, believed in the same God that produced Jesus as a human. Yeah. But since it was a rule-oriented system, there was a detachment.

And the idea of God becoming a human was something that they were having a hard time wrapping their head around. But we do the same exact things. It's like a lot of people won't watch a movie, you know, with cussing in it. That's a true story that made me realize most of what Zach did. just said, well, this is just the same story. Yeah. Told it a different way.

I mean, you could have put our movie right behind. The only difference is we highlighted that Jesus is what transformed. It's more of a spiritual time. All of that. But there was a God conscious element to the movie. Right. And even now, you know, it's like he's declared that, you know, he believes in God. And how could you not when you realize, yeah, that we're not.

able to fix our problems ourselves. But what I was going to say is so a lot of people, they would say, well, I can never watch a movie like that because, you know, I don't want to hear that stuff. You know, I have to defend the Bible in these, you know, I know the verses. Don't let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouth or, you know, however you want to apply. Of course, joking.

There's several references. And I think that's a fundamental problem. We'll get to this when we get to Ephesians. I have a whole bit about this because I think you're then acting kind of like the Jews trying to defend the rule system without having the person who came to redeem us from the whole system.

And I heard a English, and I mean English as in a preacher from England, preach one time and he told a story, I'm not sure how it all went, but the gist of it was he had been asked to join this group of people who were defending the Bible, and he declined because he said the Bible doesn't need to be defended. It needs to be unleashed because of who it's about. And he made an illustration.

He said, you don't put a line in a cage to defend the line, which just think about that. it's Jesus needs to be unleashed. You're not going to be able to... That was Charles Spurgeon who said that. Okay. Well, thank you, Zah. You have the memory of an elephant. Well, that's one of my favorite quotes.

I love it because I got into apologetics for a lot of years. And I still love apologetics, but it's like defend the Christian faith with all, you know, and I think it's important. But the idea is you got to be careful. Like, like Jesus himself, he doesn't need me to defend him. I mean, he is the lion, he is the lion and the lamb. And I think you just opened the cage and let him out. And I think that gives me, that actually gives me, going back to our last podcast, that's another thing that gives me confidence.

So that, those passages about him being the great I am. And like, like we, because I think often when you think about the, if I, if I did this, I've actually done this sermon where I've asked the audience to close their eyes. And I just say, I'm going to say a word. And I want you to grasp the first. image that pops in your head and you hold on to it. And I'll, and of course, I slow it way down because I want them.

I want them to capture that first image. And I usually have the slides ready to show them after they get the image in their mind. And then I say, here's the word. And I say, Jesus. And then I ask everybody to open their eyes. And behind me on the screen,

I have a, I have three pictures I'll show. The first one is, is the picture of, you know, the one Jesus where he's petting the lamb. I got that picture. and I said, how many of you saw some version of this picture?

And a lot of them will raise their hand. How many of you saw this next picture? It'll be Jesus with the kids around. He meets nice Jesus. And then last one, I showed Jesus on the cross. And I'm not kidding. It is probably 95% of the audience every time raises their hand to one of those three pictures when I say the name Jesus.

And then I go to that Revelation 1 passage that I mentioned in the last podcast. And I paint. And I say, this is what John the revelator on the Isle of Patma saw, white woolly hair, fire in his eyes, a double-edged sword protruding from his mouth. He's got the, I mean, this guy is a voice like the sound of rushing water in waters. I mean, it's a picture of just power. And we don't, this is who Jesus is. And so we forget this and we only see him as the lamb, but we forget. that man we're talking about the living god he becomes a lamb sacrifice for the sins of the world

but but that's why the bible also talks about him as a lion yeah and that's powerful to think about jesus being who he is and becoming that that that spur that so i'm sorry i went on a tie right there but that's why i love that quote so much that's what we do is go on tirades i mean this podcast is about the point i was making is if you're going to be god's representatives it's messy You interact with people. And, you know, I've told this story before, but, you know, when I was a young Christian, we were really bringing a lot of people to Jesus. But these were worldly people.

They cussed like sailors. They did things. It just was part of it. But in one of the girls we had baptized, every time we would study with somebody else, we kept getting reports that this girl was going out and getting drunk and bars and different things. but we would ask her about it. She was like, wasn't me. I don't know why they're, why they keep saying that.

I was like, there's too much smoke here. I mean, let's talk about it. You've embraced Jesus. We hadn't been seeing you around, kind of like what we're reading here in Hebrews. Yeah. So one night, Missy and I just, I said, it was New Year's Eve, I think.

And I said, let's go down to that bar and see if we see her. And probably, you know, not the wisest of choices. But what I'm said is our only motivation was to get to the facts, and we love this girl. And so we wasn't there five minutes, call it divine intervention, couldn't find a parking place. There's hundreds of people at this bar. We wasn't there five minutes. I was going to go in. And she'd come stumbling out of the bar, her and another girl that we had baptized about a year before.

And I just got out of that car. Missy said, I'm not going anywhere near that place. And I walked up there and we just, I didn't say a word. She looked at me and I looked at her and said, okay, well now we know. I think that's what I said. And so got back in the vehicle because I realized she was drunk. It wasn't any sense in having a conversation there. She wasn't going to remember that.

So I get home, phone rings. It's her. She cussed me from the moment that conversation started. It was just one four little word after another. Thanks, Jays, for taking care of me, warning me. Oh, no, it was the opposite. You have no blankety, blankety, blingety, blingety, blingety, blingety, blingety, and you know what?

I went right back to Jesus, and I was confident. And, and look, that was years ago. Where's she now? How is she doing? She's, she was there yesterday. Yeah. I mean, I'm saying she finally got it, but you're not going to be a, able to walk through life trying to be Jesus in this world and keep yourself from these types

of situations. I'm not, you know, I get it. Some people want to detach themselves, but this is not rule-oriented living. When you're trying to help people, it gets messy. And when people are in their biggest messes, they're going to cuss like sailors. And that's just the way it is. Which is about to our good friends that covenantize, one of their sayings is accountability. you were accountability for her and you called her out but you called her out to call her up exactly.

We call people out to call them up. The idea is we want to elevate the life. We're not just trying to go around and nail people. No, well she was hindering what we were doing because her friends were sent with it.

No, this, the person who did this same thing, I just saw them at this honky tonk and I'm like, she said she wasn't there. Oh, she was the. there. Well, what's it got to do with you? You know, forget her. But still, in the back of my mind, I'm like, well, we got a problem we need to address there because evidently she's living a lie.

Which she was, but, you know, it was early in her faith and it's bumpy. There's a bumpy process, some more bumpy than others depending on the person. But all I was trying to say is that we're not offering a rule-oriented system. If that's your view of Christianity, that's the wrong view. That's what the whole book of Hebrews is saying, get out from under that and focus on Jesus. So that puts me right back in Hebrews 10 days, because he brings in this idea. Remember we talked about, there were three questions I asked. One was who do we believe? And that's where this text started, was we believe in Jesus because of what he's done and who he is. And then we read that text in Hebrews 10, 17, 18, their sins and lawless acts I remember no more. Where these have been

forgiven, there is no sacrifice for sins left or the other version will say sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary is the way some of the versions will read and that's true because of Jesus. So how do we respond to that? He said, let us. And then there were four different things he did. One of those was community, which is what Jay's just described. It's a community of people that say, we're looking out for each other. And he says, you know, all the more as you see the day approaching, verse 25, and it's capitalized in the NIV, but actually the Greek word, because I looked it up, is not just judgment because they were implying the judgment day, but it's any day.

That word means any day. And I made the point that, look, any day comes along, we find out something rough or tough or difficult or we're faced with a difficult day. That's the day we need a community is in that moment. And so that's what's offered. So then I want to hit this last one. Why would you want to go back? because Jesus just described it about a system that can't offer a salvation.

Now, in this system that we're looking at, the Jewish system, it was temple, it was sacrifice of animals, it was trying to keep the law, certain laws. They would claim some laws were more important than other, but the idea was they couldn't do it. And so that's where this next verse comes from. And I've heard this verse misapplied terribly, but think about it in the context. But I do want to bring up before you read this, something you didn't have time to develop in your sermon. And I think it's going to be helpful when we get back to the few verses in Ephesians 2 before it used to Ephesians 3. There's religion, and then there was what we had

going on here. This was their whole cultural, social, political world. They were meeting, they were meeting God via the priest here, which is God's approval on who they are in their minds. but this is their whole life. And so when they came to Jesus, because you're fixed and see this later on, they were getting persecuted by people who were like, have you lost your mind? This is your culture. This is your ancestry.

This is your heritage. So when it says this phrase about let us not give up meeting together, well, they were, they didn't want to go public for Jesus because of the persecution. that would follow. I just was sitting the context. And I'm glad you did because of what's going to happen in verse 32 and following, these are people who had come out of the system partially, but now we're going back in.

So that's the whole reason the whole book was written, as Zach said earlier, because these people were going back. And he says that, because he says, remember those earlier days after you received the light, you endured great conflict full of suffering, just what Jason was describing. You were publicly exposed to insults. persecution, you suffered the confiscation of your property. So he's laying out. These people have been through a lot.

And now they're going back just because of all these things that have happened to him. And he says the phrase in 35, do not throw away your confidence. Remembering it started out? This is a confidence to approach Christ. So, yeah, that sets the track for it. And you're right. I don't have time to get into that in my sermon.

So here's what he says. Here's the verse that gets misapplied so much. He says in verse 26, He's making a shift here. He's making his, like, big claim, his last case. Don't go back under this Jewish system of law. Stay with Christ. If we deliberately keep on sinning, there's the word, the phrase that I've heard

that's applied so much. Some versions will say if we willfully keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth. And then he has the same phrase he said back in verse 18. There's no sacrifice for sins. no sacrifice for sins is left. In other words, he's already taken care of it. So the key then, because it becomes this world, what does it mean deliberate sin?

Because what we've had is people build a whole theology on this sin is willful and deliberate, and this one didn't. I mean, how many times have you heard this? And you're just like, come on, man. It's what happens when you alienate the idea that the Bible is about Jesus. Because he's eventually going to say, you're trampling the Son of God under foot. So when you're like willfully sinning, deliberately sinning, once you're like, well, I heard about Jesus, but I'm not going to surrender to it. That's right.

You know, I thought about it or some people say, well, maybe they never really did surrender. But just think about it. If you hear what Jesus has done and you go through this persecution and now all of a sudden the persecution keeps on and you finally just say, you know what? I think it'd be a lot easier if I just go back to the way I was. That's right. Yeah, I think that you said something there that we need to unpack, because I think you're right. It's when you miss Jesus, I would add, as the prize. I think if you're reading this and your view of salvation is simply just to go to heaven

as opposed to having heaven come into us, meaning Christ move in, that Christ is the prize. you start trying to figure all this out and like oh well they were never saved in the first place but even the way that they're defining salvation just seems very limited to me oh it's it's way off i agree because because he brought this up in hebrew six that nobody wants to ever talk about that passage because they can't but it's the same vein just to read that hebrew six where it says if if these people who have once been enlightened who have tasted the heavenly gift talking about Jesus, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness, the word of God, the powers of the coming age.

If they fall away, it's impossible to be brought back to repentance because to their loss, they're crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting them to public disgrace. It's a similar passage that what we have in Hebrews 10 here, it's like you're trampling over Jesus. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the one who is trampled underfoot? the Son of God and profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and outraged the Spirit of Grace. I mean, I have an answer what I think, what I tell people when this comes up. And it's like what you're saying is they say I need more, but they're also saying,

well, I don't like this persecution I'm getting because of being public for Jesus, which is the same persecution I had at 16 at high school. Yep. As soon as I made the declaration on why I was not going to participate in what my friends were doing to them, well, it didn't go well. Right. I mean, they tried everything known to man. They made fun of me.

They bullied me, you know, for my faith. I mean, it just, it got real. And I struggled just like they're struggling. because all of a sudden this was my world, and now I have gone public to them and said, I'm not doing this, and here's why. And when I brought up Jesus, conflict started, which is exactly what happened here. But I was going to make the point that the language here about you're subjecting him to public disgrace. When you read Paul's little dissertation in Colossians 2, and he said, you were dead in your sins,

God made you alive. He forgave us our sins. And this is, you know, in the context of their baptism, you were raised with him through your faith and in the power of God and the working of God's word, who raised him from the dead. But then he goes on to say he canceled the written code with its regulations, which that was the lifeblood of Judaism, the written code, the law, you're following the rules, doing the rituals. But here we got Jesus nailed that to the cross. He disarmed the powers and authorities. And listen to how this works. He made a public spectacle of them, the people who killed him, triumphing over them by the cross and the powers that led to sin itself. So my point is you get this contrast of where are you at in this process? Are you part of, you part of? Are you part of?

of the crowd saying crucify him, crucify him? Or are you the one saying, oh, he did this for me, and I'm going to go public for Jesus saying he made a public disgrace out of the world? And that's kind of what helped me get past my persecution. I thought, well, if I'm going to declare Jesus unashamed of that, well, then I'm going to turn into Jesus on earth. which is being persecuted and them looking at me like I'm a public disgrace. Yeah, one of the options that pops up is it's a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Yeah. Well, that should be motivation enough.

But I do think there's something about you being ashamed of what Jesus did because you're being persecuted for it. that's a dangerous road to go down. Yeah, especially after he said he's unashamed to be called your family. So here was the word I used. So the Greek word here, which is Hukusios, which is for deliberately or willfully, as some versions say, that Greek word means willingly or voluntarily, which is a little bit of a different twist. You think about it, is only used one other time in the Bible, 1 Peter 5, too.

And listen to the different context here, but look how this word applies here and then think back to what we've been talking about. This is Peter in 1, 1st Peter 5. He starts out in verse 1, time at Jesus being the chief shepherd, but now he's a shepherd of the sheep. Peter himself is an elder in the church. And then he makes this challenge. Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care watching over them. Now listen to this, not because you must, but because you are willing. There's our word.

I have a submission, a willingness to do this, to be a shepherd. And then he says this, as God wants you to be. So think about that. God's will is for you to submit your will, and in this case in First Peter, to then lead other people, not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve. Now, that's the same exact word that we see on this thing about willful sin. So that's a completely different concept. And I think the idea is what the Hebrew writer was saying was,

why would you willfully, willingly go back to a system that you know will not work? Yeah, I think this verse, because I think the fear in reading this verse and Hebrew 6, because I remember reading Hebrew 6, like after I had gone off for a couple years and, like, not been living right, really hadn't been pursued the Lord. I mean, I did love, I mean, I had made this confession of faith before that, And I remember when I came back to my senses and repented, I remember reading Hebrew 6, particularly that Jace read earlier and this one, I thought, ooh, have I done this? Have I sin? Have I done the thing that I can never return?

And you want to talk about haunt somebody. I mean, I really, like, was haunted by these verses. And I want to give assurance to people that are listening here that that's not what he's saying. This is not saying there's a number of sins or a degree of sin that you can commit to where God's like up, you crossed the line, that was too many. That's too heavy. You've outweighed the blood of Jesus. That's not the point here. I think this is more akin to what you're talking about, Al.

To me, it's related to that verse about the Holy Spirit being blasphemed when Jesus says you can blaspheme the Son of Man and be forgiven, but you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you can't. I think what this is is this is a willful rejection of Jesus and truth. And I think that's what he's saying here is that there's nothing beyond Jesus. He is the prize. And if that's not enough for you. So if you're asking yourself the question, well, have I done that? Well, then I would say you haven't done that if you're worried about having done that. Because even what you described, a period of prodigal is you give up on yourself.

It doesn't mean you gave up on Jesus. you give up on yourself. True. But he's always, he always returns us back. Let's take our last break. True. But you say, well, how come there's so much arguing about it in theology? It's because it's very difficult for us to have God's perspective and our perspective at the same time.

You know, when I was telling about the girl who's going to the bars, you're like, well, this looks, how could she a few weeks before have surrendered? How can that be true? but I'm sure from God's perspective, it's just like, you know, the first year of your Christian life, Phil, it was bumpy. And the first two years... A little longer than that. The first two years of my Christian life was really bumpy for a totally different reason. I just kind of had a rule-oriented system.

Kind of like, you know, I'm just going to detach myself from the world, which is the opposite of what I'm supposed to be doing in Jesus. But there's a growing spurt that has to have. From my perspective, I think like Zach said, he was gone for a couple of years, looked up. But I think from God's perspective, he's not going to make any mistakes. I was just trying to give you that picture of the cross, because to me, there's about three places you could be in there as far as your faith. You can either go to the cross with him. You know, like when he said, you want to follow me, bring your cross, you're acknowledging you're all in on that. or you're hiding in the bushes like the disciples who were save men but they all scattered because

this was not what they thought it was going to be so that was part of their process or you're in the crowd saying crucifying i mean really when you look at the planet you fall into one of those three categories you're either hiding you're saying no i'm never following jesus or in making fun of him and all this. Or you're just like, well, this is who I am. I'm all in on the cross of Jesus. And by doing that, you're going to be crucified in the world. It's just the way it is.

All right. So let me bring it home because here's the last verse that he says, Hebrews 1039. And think about this, we're not going there because we're going back to Ephesus next time. But if we were in continuing the book of Hebrews, he's about to go into Hebrews 11. what we lovingly call the Hebrew Faith Hall of Fame. And so here's the last word that he says here, verse 39.

I think about that in relationship to everything we've been talking about, the last two podcasts. But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. I love it takes it back to faith. It takes it back to ultimately in our heart what we believe. And then the question becomes, do we really believe it?

Because that's where confidence comes from. That's where all of it comes from. So I told this story that I got from Joe Beam has written a book. Joe's been on the podcast before. He wrote a book called Seeing the Unseen that we have recommended to you guys about spiritual warfare. But Joe told me whenever he was asked by Howard books to write that book, he said, well, I got a book on forgiveness that I really want to write.

And if I'll do your spiritual warfare book, if you let me do this other book. We got a two-book deal, which I told him was a pretty good business way to do it. But his heart was there. And the first book was called Forgiven Forever. Since these last few years, now it's been renamed Getting Past Guilt. One of the best books I've ever read. I've told you guys before on the podcast, if you're struggling with your faith in God's redemptive ability to forgive you,

or if you're struggling with being able to forgive another person, maybe it's your spouse, a child, a parent, whatever. You need to get this book, Getting Past Guilt by Joe Bing. So Joe wrote this amazing book, and there's a story in the book that really just has crystallized it for me. And he was telling a story about this deacon in his church. Joe said he was 22 years old, and he was at this little small church. I think it was in Alabama. And this guy comes in. He was a great guy.

He was a deacon in their church, very spiritual, Bible teacher, godly. And he had set up an appointment with Joe, who's like a very young, new pastor. And so he said, I need to come. come talk to you. I got something I'm struggling with. And so Joe was thinking in his mind, this is an older guy, a lot older than him. He felt like a lot more mature than him, everything. So he was kind of scared about this guy coming in. And he comes in, he sits down, he says, you know, they're kind of doing small talk. And Joe's like, what can I help you with? And he said, well, he said, 15 years ago, I committed a willful sin. And that's why I thought about this

story in relationship to this text and our discussion. And I just hadn't been able to get past it. And it's really, I'm really struggling. And so Joe said, as he's sitting there as a young man, he's thinking, oh, man, he must have done something really, really big, you know, bad. If it's 15 years, he's been holding on to this. And he said, well, what is it? And he said, well, 15 years ago, I was serving in the Army and I was over, I had to spend a year in Germany. I was, you know, called over there, away from my family. And Joe's thinking, okay, here we go.

and he says, and I never met with a church, with the brothers, with anybody. And Joe was like, okay, and then what happened? Because he thought, you know, it's got to be an affair. There's got to be something just really. He said, that was it. I mean, that was my willful sin. He said, I need you to help me get out of this guilt. So Joe told a story.

And you're saying that in response to that verse that says, do not give up meeting together as some habit or do. Because it happened to be that. very thing, right. So he tells the story. He said, this guy had a 10-year-old son. He said, he said, let me just ask you something. He said, you got your 10-year-old son, Jeff. He said, what if you told Jeff to feed your hunting dogs? And you came home that afternoon, told him that in the morning, and you came home and they hadn't been fed. And you went to him, would you say to him something like this? Would you say, why don't you feed those dogs?

And he says, you know, dad, I'm sorry. I was playing with my friends. I just forgot about it. But, you know, what would you say? He said, I'd get on them a little bit and tell him to go feed them, and that's the end of it. He said, what if you came home the next day and all the kids are playing, but he's sitting over there under a tree and you go over and say, what's the matter, son? He said, well, I'm just so sorry. I should have fed those dogs yesterday. Would you tell him something like, it's okay? I mean, don't worry about it.

Just do what I tell you to do? Yeah. What if eight years later he's graduating high school and he's just walked across the stage and he hangs his head and shame? and you say, son, what does it matter? I just can't, I should have fed those dogs. Help me, father. And he said, now he's looking at the guy, and the guy's looking at him like, all right, you're hitting home.

Now he said, what if seven years after that, he's 25 years old, he's coming home for Thanksgiving, he's got a wife, he's got a baby. You're so excited to see him. And he doesn't even come in the door and you go outside and he's just sitting on the porch with his head hanging and said, I just wish I had fed those dogs. And he said, he said, And now he said the guy had tears in his eyes. And he said, what would you think about that, Jeff?

And he said, or Bobby, Jeff was son. He said, what would you think about that? And he said, I would think he didn't believe his daddy. And it was such a powerful point because I think when we think about forgiveness, we think about who Christ is, we have to believe he's big enough to be able to do that before we can ever make those steps forward. So it's a great story. It is.

Because he said, I mean, you read that verse when it says, there's sins and lawless acts, I'll remember no more. And that's what I was saying about this whole point about God's perspective. If you really believe that, that's over. Yeah. The sin, why am I carrying this baggage around? He said, look, I'm not even remembering them. But from our perspective, it's just way more difficult because we're selfish. We're humans.

Well, you know. And the question you could ask yourself is, when you're just, say if you don't believe it, the next question you should say, well, then is he lying? Yeah. I mean, is he lying to you? And I think when you really put it in a perspective, that answer is clear. If you know the God of the Bible, the one thing we do know, he does not lie. And that's in Hebrew 6, by the way, too.

He does not lie. And if he said it's finished, if he said, you're forgiven. If he says there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, then guess what? there ain't no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. So it becomes, it becomes, we don't believe because we are faithful, we believe because he is faithful. So just here's what you do. Here's the instruction before we get back to Ephesians, because this is going to help

us understand the why Jesus is our peace of bringing Jews and Gentiles together, you know, all people, but it helps you understand from their point of view how difficult that transition was. But what you need to do, you walk outside. You know, I have a little street right in front. You just start shouting to the heavens. I've been forgiven. They're gone. I'm forgiven.

And then when people say, what, what are you hollering about? Then there's your way to live like God wants us to live, is to share this awesome grace and forgiveness that we have in Christ. You could be forgiven right now. It can all be gone. I love it. So thank you for letting me preach that sermon over two podcasts. WFRchurch.org is where you can go if you want to watch both of those and get a little more flavor of what I talked about.

We'll get back to Ephesians next time. I don't understand. Thanks for listening to The Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click that little bell to get notified about new episodes. And for even more content that you won't get any way. else, subscribe to Blaze TV at blazedtv.com slash unashamed.