Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 995 | What Clint Eastwood Taught Jase About Baptism & the Bible Topic No One Is Talking About

Episode Date: November 20, 2024

The guys explore the physical and spiritual concepts of circumcision, and Jase learns a surprising lesson about baptism from Clint Eastwood. Zach and Jase disagree on the finer points of baptism, and the guys marvel at the mechanics of Abraham and Sarah’s conception of Isaac in the book of Genesis. In this episode: Colossians 2; Genesis 17; Deuteronomy 10, verse 16; Deuteronomy 30, verse 6; Acts 2, verses 36-39; Mark 3, verse 11 -- Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashame. Jason, when we go speak places, there's usually some kind of Q&A attached or a meet and greet or, you know, there's their time when you go and you're, you know, there's an interaction. And a lot of what we do are fundraisers for people. So a lot of times people will give more to the organization to have an opportunity to meet you, maybe. get a book sign, something like that. But the people you get to meet along the way, I have to say, I mean, just everybody in general, obviously people are excited, people listen to the podcast, a lot of you guys

that meet you at events. But then a lot of times you get a little surprise because you meet somebody that you recognize and you're surprised they're there. Has that ever happened to you where you were someplace and you saw somebody and you were like, what are you doing here? I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, nothing comes to mind. I mean, I know that's happened many times.

So I was in Virginia recently, and it was really cool. I think I talked about on the podcast. I got to go to Monticello, which is Thomas Jefferson's home. And I've always been a big fan of Jefferson. And just he was so brilliant, you know, and so much of his stuff. You went to his house? Went to his house. Well, did you ask him if I could come metal detect?

I didn't because there wasn't anybody that seemed like they would be the kind of person that would let you do that. but it was very structured. But man, let me tell you something, Jay's, if you could, there's no tell of what you could find on this place. Yeah. It was literally the top of a mountain. I think we need a follow-up on this.

I think you may be right. They never brought up that I have a treasure hunting show. Never mentioned it. Never brought it up. Never even. So the event was at the house? No, no, no. That was just me and Lisa going to look.

That had nothing to do with the event. Oh, I said. That was a side note. We do the event, raising money for a pregnancy center. I'm doing a Q&A and with some folks that had volunteered, I mean to donate some money to this event. Now look up in this guy and his wife come in. I was thinking, man, that guy looks familiar.

You know, and I just kind of noticed him. And we do the Q&A. And so as we're leaving, we're taking some pictures with some folks. And they waited until the last to come up. And I said, I know you from somewhere. And he smiled. He said, well, you might have caught me on Fox News. And I said, yeah, you're the military guy.

And his name is Cameron Hamilton. And he does a lot of military hits on Trace's show, which is the last show of the night, which is usually when I catch my news. It's on like 11 o'clock here, Trace Gallagher. And he uses him a lot about anything going on around the world. And he's young. I don't know what he is. I would guess maybe he's in late 30s.

And he's a Navy SEAL. And so he's been everywhere just rocks. I thought of it, super smart and super aware of world surrounding. So I was always impressed with him. And I was like, what are you doing here? And he said, well, I live here. He said, and I love your family. And I saw you're going to be here.

And so I wanted to come and support the event. So it was really cool for me because this was a guy that I see and respect and never thought I'd get to meet. Yeah. And he felt the same way. So he told me, he said, I'm into making coffee is one of the things I'm doing. I said, coffee. He said, when you're a seal and you're around the world, you're big into coffee.

I said, well, it's a lot like Duckin. He said a lot like it. And so Jayce, I thought you'd like, he sent me some. And this one is called Outlaw Blend, and it's got a sort of a caricature of our old friend Doc Holiday on the front of it. And the name of this under that is I'm your Huckleberry. I like where he's going with this. I am too. I told him we were huge.

And then this was one that's called We the People, which I thought was good, you know, military guy. and this one is classic and bold. So we hadn't had a chance to try it. We're going to. And we'll give it a shot. But I just wanted to give a little shout out to Cameron. If you ever see him now, he does a lot of hits on Fox. You'll know because we talked about it on here.

But his coffee thing is called Onward Valor. So if you want to check that out. He's a fantastic guy. Loves our country. He obviously done a lot for us as well. And so it was a pleasure to get to know him. You know, you just meet people through this process. of what we get to do, and it's just amazing.

Yes, I think it's going to be a lot like heaven in the next life. You're looking around. Oh, didn't fancy I'd see you here. How'd you get in here? Wow, that's surprising. That's a surprise. Now, have y'all heard the, well, let me back up a little bit. We grew up in thinking we were the only ones going to heaven.

I mean, that's what I literally grew up. That's a joke, sort of. Oh, we. No, I did. I grew up thinking that if you were. are not part of our denomination, which was a non-denominational denomination, I thought, I thought, yep, you're not in. Well, there was even a joke.

It was even a joke that went around where they said their group, whoever was telling the joke, got to heaven, and they walked past these people, and they said, be real quiet, because they think they're the only ones here. Yeah. That was a joke I was going to tell. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But I do think that's why we have so many. religious group, I mean, to your point, seriously, that that's why people start up new, I mean, how many different denominations are in America? It's in the thousands, is that? Thousands. Oh, it's a lot.

But I think, you know, I think it's, we all have our little theological distinctives and things that we kind of hang on. Well, in our particular heritage, we split several directions over different issues in the, by, you know, not even biblical, just issues. And so every other group has done that as well. So you'll have this group and then there's the reforms of that group and the not reformed and the this and the that and the, I kind of go to that Luke 17, 20, where he says, you know,

the kingdom will not come visibly, nor will people say, here it is or there it is because it's within you. That's a great point. That's a great point. So I just, I went rogue somewhere in that. While you were thinking, I don't know about this, we're the only ones going to heaven. I just went rogue. I thought I'm not going to look at signs or buildings or I'm just going to go out and preach Jesus.

But did you always think that or when you were a kid? No, it took me, you know, four or five years. Yeah. You know, I mean, I've said this. I thought about saying this while ago, and I thought maybe I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to go ahead and say it. I thought in my mind, I think I need to distance myself from this particular group. You know, I remember having that thought because I just thought it wasn't focused on the grace of God enough, which is kind of what you're describing.

I mean, how do you know all the, you know, we're in this little bitty church building here. The world's a big place. Yeah. Yeah. And so what changed my mind. But not only that, just why would anybody think, any group of any kind that you would know anything about who gets into heaven or not? In other words, it's not your call. Well, that's kind of what I got there.

We had a sign on one of the buildings that we attended, and a sign was a plaque. It was like a bronze. It looked like intentionally weathered, but I mean, I don't know if it was, maybe it was as old as the sign said it was, but it was a little plaque about, if you're not watching, I think I got about 12 inches, maybe 14 by 14. I like a license plate. Like a license plate. Did it say do not eat in the auditorium? Now we had that rule, too. It said, established, this church was established in AD 30.

And I thought, man, it's been here a long time. But it was, I don't know, I think the plaque was made in about 1981. But the, but it said the church was established in 8070. And the idea was that we were the New Testament church. And, well, Zach, as funny. Well, technically, I'll kind of agree with that. Well, that's true. That's not a bad thing.

But it's funny, Zach, so I haven't mentioned this to you. And you just brought that up when you said the sign. So when I was in your house, at the time, it was during the day before the storm hip, you were not there. And we were about to pick up one of your kids or something. And so I was looking because you guys have done some remodeling. It looks fantastic, by the way. Thank you. Your kitchen, all of it.

But I was laughing because. when I was going, I went to go out on the front porch because I love your front porch. And it just has this Americana street there and it's really neat look. And as I'm going out, I can tell that Jill, I'm assuming, in part of the designing of everything in your house, had somewhere gotten one of those, I wish I had a picture of it to show you. Anybody that grew up in our heritage would know it. It's a thing that hung in the front of every little building and it had numbers on it. It would have the attendance and the offering.

Do you remember Jay's what I'm telling me? You remember that little sign that would always be in the front of the building? Yeah, it's like last week's attendance. Yeah, this week's. 362, you know. And sometimes and some of them it would have the songs that were going to be sung that day. They would change it every week. So Zach has one of those hanging in his living room.

She was hanging on. So I said, somebody's not letting go of the old. way. See, you want to know what I was thinking when I saw that sign as a kid. What'd you think? I was thinking, why would you post how much money coming in here? I mean, you're basically saying come rob us. There's $7,000 somewhere in this facility. I always thought, too, because we were in some little ones growing up, that it was very underwhelming that number. It was not very impressed. I mean, it was to us because we were poor. It was like $23. Yeah. I mean, it was like, do you read to post that because it's not very present.

Well, the church I'm at now, it's funny about it started as a little small church. And my dad, this is that used to be done, though. My dad, when we first moved here, he finds this little church. And he goes in, there's like probably about 10 people left. And they're like, what, and what did you, sir, what are you doing here? Well, I just moved here. I retired. What did you retire from?

I'm a retired pastor. And they said, well, back then we called them preachers, by the way, not pastors. at least in our group. And they said, we need, we need a, we need a pastor. Would you, $120 a week if you'll come preach here every Sunday? So that was his first Sunday to visit. He got, he got hired for $120 a sermon. And he was so good at his preaching that the church under his leadership

went from 10 people to four people in a two-year period. So we always tell him that. You had like a 60% like you, man, you need, you need some help. Oh, man. If you need somebody to basically take it on into the sunset, just bring in Gordo. But what's funny, I mean, I don't, I don't, and I probably should caveat this. I'm very grateful, though, for our heritage too. Me too.

I mean, I learned the Bible. I learned a whole lot about, there's a lot that we still do even. Like, we, you know, we do have a heavy emphasis on coming around the table, the Lord's table every Sunday. and we're elder led and we you know we we I love the idea speak where the Bible speaks you know like let the Bible be the final authority so there's a lot of good um but I think we all no matter what denomination or group you came up out of I do think the Lord is just he's you know he's bringing a lot of with the internet now I mean I can go kind of pick the best of any denomination and and I think a lot of churches have kind of groups have kind of done that they've said you know what we're going to come off this a little bit we're going to come off this and it seems like now the kingdom's a lot more. I don't know, like maybe fluid or more. But I definitely think we're all more open to it because obviously we broke out of that

mindset like Jason was talking about it was kind of group thing to now being out there and being exposed to some amazing people. And I've learned so much more that it's helped me. And great preachers and great pastors from around the country that impact my life that I wouldn't have been listening to when I was younger because, you know, what do they got to offer? You know, they don't even... I mean, they were having the same problem here. We're in Colossians.

It's very much so, just... This is kind of what's happening. He's focusing on Jesus. And I've said thousands of times, I thought the Bible was a rule book because the way, you know, where we were meeting, it was like, oh, they talk about Jesus. But then it's like, well, kind of these are, they wouldn't call them rules, but. But this is just like, this is what we do. And this is what we need to agree on. Or, you know, I just, at some point I realize this is about a person,

which we talk about that a lot, and that all these verses that God does not live in temples, built by hands and buildings. It was not a, let's go build a building. This was a movement of declaring Jesus in all places and houses and synagogues, but also just over a water whale. Yeah. I call them, I call them shadow things.

And I get it from this text, but they were focusing on the shadow things. Because there is a rule. There's a rule of life, you know, and there's a, just like there's a law, you know, laws of thermodynamics that it's not like someone sit up there and said, all right, I'm going to make some rules about how heat works and how matter and energy or transform. It's not like a, I mean, there is. God that set this emotion, but these are not like arbitrary things. These are descriptions of how

the world works. And there is a description and a rule of life of how life in Christ is. But what happens is if you take the things like of themselves for themselves, then you're basically, it's like what Paul's language here is like you're focusing on the shadow of the thing. And so a lot of what our movement did was it would, in all movements kind of devolved into this over time, but the spirit keeps bringing it back and the kingdom is fluid and moves like the wind. So you can't really isolate it. So up, there it is. It's contained right there.

There it is. It's in that movement, that group, that church, that building. Like, you can't do that. I mean, the kingdom cannot be identified in that way. But I think that our default position is to take it and try to put parameters around it so that we can then contain it and hold it. And when you do that, you're essentially taking and you're looking at the shableness. of something instead of the reality of it, which to your point is relational, not just relational. It's relational in the context of a relationship with a particular person.

And that person is Jesus Christ, who just so happens to be the incarnation and the fullness of the Godhead. He's the fullness of the triune God in bodily form. So that's for our entry point into the Trinity, into partaking in the divine life, as Peter said that our way in is through the person of Jesus. So anything that kind of gets outside of that becomes just a thing that we focus on. It's a shadow thing, not a reality. Yeah, by the way, I wanted to also remind you guys just yesterday, the last episode, Tuesday,

we did publish our first episodes on the Not Yet Now podcast. So for all you guys listening, I want to encourage you to go check it out. Anywhere a podcast or heard, you can also go to our YouTube channel at Dash or Zach. Z-A-C-H, and we upload the episodes there. And if you could help us, just leave a comment. If you could rate it, share it with your friends, subscribe, wherever you listen to the podcast. That really does help us get our show up the algorithm, so it would help quite a bit. So thank you guys.

I can't wait to hear your feedback on that, by the way. This starts off saying in verse 6, so then just as you receive Christ as Lord, so this is Colossians 2-6. continue to live in him, rooted, built up in him, strengthening the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness, which we talked about that on the last podcast. That's where we left off. So then here's where the problem comes in.

So other groups of people were introducing things outside of Jesus. So it says, see to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition, and the basic elements of this world rather than on Christ, which we talked about that a little bit in one podcast,

which is why other gods focused on earth, wind, and fire, I guess, you know, or just encounters that happen on the earth, which made me think, really, God is the earth, wind, and fire. I mean, he created the earth. Jesus became an earthling, a human, when the Holy Spirit was poured out, well, then it was the descriptive language with it was wind and fire. Yeah. And so.

Don't you think that's why God did that with the Elijah story in First Kings 19, where they just had the big showdown with all the false gods, and then all of a sudden he gets depressed because he still hadn't converted Ahab and Jezebel to the right way? I think, and so he takes him on that mountain and there's earthwind and fire, and he's like, I'm not, you're looking at the wrong place. Because remember then it said it was a gentle whisper. And the whisper just said, I got work for you to do. Yeah, even in the burning bush, you go back to that.

It's like there's a fire that won't burn up. Ooh, that's interesting. I mean, he is fire. Right. He created it. But in the fire, the voice said, I am who I am. We got a fire talking, you know, and then. Shadrach,

Meshag, and a bad, you know, they're, they go in there and they're not burning up. Then they look

and there's another in the fire. You know, who's that walking around? Right. And so, so you see that they're having some conflict.

So then to get into this, which is a difficult thing to wrap your head around because of the illustrations that are fixed to happen. And we'll talk about it. And I'm, pretty sure that we're not all going to agree on all the details of this, but I may be surprised.

So in verse 9, he says, for in Christ, which he's focused on Christ since chapter 1, verse 1 here, all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form, you've been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. Goes back to that. He is king. Now it gets interesting. He says, in him, which was a theme of Ephesians, by the way, to, in a phrase in all of the New Testament letters, in Christ, you were also circumcised. But now he had just made a reference of making known among the Gentiles, which was considered the uncircumcise, that the mystery of Christ, I mean, the mystery which was hidden was Christ in you, the hope.

of glory. So now it's kind of like he's targeting the Jewish origin here because of Genesis 17. I think at some point in this Bible study, we're going to need to read Genesis 17. And just the caveat on top of this, because you mentioned Ephesians briefly, but Ephesians 2 has this language where he says, you who were called the uncircumcised are now basically called the circumcised. Like you who were alien. and far off of now. So this idea of circumcision, and I don't know where you're going with this yet,

so we may not agree completely. But so far, like, yeah, I think this is, I think you're right of what this conversation that Paul's having here. Let's just start off. Let's assume nobody knows anything. So when you,

I mean, all of a sudden we were focusing on Jesus. He is the fullness of the deity, which is the Godhead in bodily form. God became human. Which, by the way, That's a key phrase there, Jay, is bodily form. I think that's what's introducing this idea.

He became a human and guess what? He's still a human. Yes. At the right hand of God. Remember he said, look at my hands and my feet. A human has entered the presence of God, which we've said many times showed us that's the path. If you're a human and you're going to die, which we all do, there is another human that has showed us.

there's a way to continue living here. It's it eternally. Because, again, and I'm just helping frame it for you, he's already described the creator, the sustainer, the eternal, all the things we can barely wrap our brains around. And then he says all that became one of us. Yeah. So it really becomes the key here to what he's about safe.

So let me just say this. Some of what I'm fixed to say could be graphic and offensive. people who don't understand what circumcision is. But in Genesis 17, so we have the Jewish nation, God has chosen this nation as his chosen people. Right. Could I add anything to that before I read Genesis 17? And he chose Abraham to be the one who would, how would you describe that quickly?

Well, Abraham was the one he picked to show what to be the forerunner of his people. I mean, and it was a faith thing because he called him and he said, look, I'm going to tell you where he need to go. And that's where the physical Israel is going to be. So that was the whole idea behind Abraham. So we're just 14 chapters after the garden here. Follow a man and then God comes up with a plan. And the plan is to choose a nation to be his. and he would have fellowship with this nation,

and they would be his people, just to kind of show you that God wants to dwell with people. Because after everything we read in those first 11 chapters, this is the first time we see sort of a reconnection with humanity, is this guy. So stay with us, but we're in Colossians too, and all of a sudden it says, in Christ you were also circumcised.

That's a strange statement for people in America 2,000 years later. Right. Because if you just define circumcision, when a baby is born, they're circumcised. You go to the nether region, and there's some skin that is removed. It is cut off. Yeah, right. Now, they do it now for cleanliness.

It's not health reasons. It's not an identity thing to be an American. But in the Jewish... Yeah, that's right. Yeah, but in the Jewish nation, this is where this came from, which I think is kind of fascinating. So here's Genesis 17. This will be interesting.

So when Abram was, now think about this, he's 99 years old. The Lord appeared to him and said, I am God Almighty, walk before me and be blamous. I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers. Now, you would actually have to go back to Genesis 15 to get the break. down of that covenant, but it basically said through your offspring, your generations will be as numerous as sand on the seashore and stars in the sky, right? Anything you want to add to that? Only that at this point they had no children. I would like to add Genesis 12 in here, the initial calling of Abraham, and I think it's important to note that God's intention

from the beginning with Abraham in Genesis 12. It reads, I will bless those who bless you. And whoever curses you, I will curse. And here's the thing. And all peoples on earth will be blessed for you. So good addition. Good addition. You have to have to have this as the anchor or you don't understand what's happening here.

All people, Jew and Gentile. That's why I asked. Very good. Because I didn't want to read three chapters here. And think about it from Abraham's perspective, when God's talking about all these people and this offspring and heirs, he's thinking initially in a physical sense that it's going to be children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

He's thinking that way. Yeah. So it's bigger than even Abraham knows at this point, just to be fair. Now look, how is he going to pull this off? They're looking down at their bodies. he's 99. Sarah's... 90.

Yeah, 989, I get. When he's 100 and this happens, she's 90. Right. 10 years different. So the obvious thing here is the equipment is no longer working. It's the best I can do. Even though they live longer, yeah, that's true. I mean, look, think when Viagra was introduced, we're having this moment here.

Because at some point of him being 100 years old, I don't know if he woke up one morning, and looked under the covers and thought, oh boy, I'm back. But that happened. And look, the reason Jay's is right about this is because of their response. They laugh. When they were told this, they laughed out. They laughed. Well, not just him, her.

That's what I'm saying. And she's laughing like, oh, okay, good luck with that. Look, and that's why the circumcision thing is coming in to play here. Correct. And so just think, this is like, like one of my buddies who's older said one time about his sex life. He said, that ship has sailed. Well, so just we have the context here.

So then in verse 3 of 17, Abraham fell face down and God said to him, as for me, this is my covenant with you. You will be the father of many nations. He has no kids. So just, he's 99. No longer will you be called Abraham, your name will be Abraham. For I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful.

I will make nations of you and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between, so there's a promise here that he's making. As an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come to be your God, and the God of your descendants after you, the whole land of Canaan, where you are, now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you, and I will be their God.

Then God said to Abraham, as for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants, and for the generations to come. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep. Now here we go. Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. For the generations to come, every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised. So we're talking about the removal of the skin of the anatomy.

This is a physical act. Yep. I'm reading this for my presentation because I want us to. be clear here. There's a spiritual act with a spiritual consequence. And you say, well, where are you getting that from? So before I continued reading Deuteron, I mean, Genesis 17, I want to read two passages in Deuteronomy. I know this is getting deep, but we're just, this is, this is where we've come. We have to get into this. So Deuteronomy 10 in verse 6, kind of clarifies why he's saying this in Genesis.

Now, it's actually Deuteronomy 10, 16. So let me read this. Get my glasses. Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-neck any longer. For the Lord, your God is God of God's, the Lord of Lord, is a great God, mighty, and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. All right, so I wanted to read that. And then chapter 30 in verse 6, there's a little more explanation on this about this physical act being a spiritual consequence.

In verse 6 of chapter 30, it says, the Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants so that you may love him with all your heart, with all your soul, and live. So in Romans chapter 2, before I read Genesis 17, it kind of gets into this. idea on why they were circumcised. We know why from God's perspective, because it was a sign of the covenant, the promise. So at the end of Romans 2, in verse 28, it says something interesting. You've probably never heard this preached on in church. A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No. a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly. And circumcision is circumcision of the heart by the spirit, not by the written code.

Such a man's praise is not from men but from God. So all I'm doing is introducing this idea that for a Jew, when he was circumcised, look, he became part of something. He became part of a promise by God, and his identity was the Jewish nation. became part of. Which, by the way, to prove your point, Abraham predated the Jewish nation. He was hundreds of years before we get to, you know, Sinai and the establishment of the law and all that. So that proves the point as well. As Zach said, it was for everybody, even with Abraham, even though they hadn't realized yet. It was physical and it was spiritual. So, and the reason I'm

bringing this up and we're going into these details is because the Jewish men did the cutting. There actually a physical process, and I'm going to read it to you, verse in 11, and back to 1711 of Genesis. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you for the generations to come. Every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner, those who are not your offspring, whether born in your household goes on to say, my covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant, any uncircumcised male who has not been circumcised in the flesh will be cut off from his people. He has broken the covenant. God said to Abraham, as for Sarah,

your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarah. She will be named Sarah. The H and the I are different now. I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations, kings of peoples, will come from her. Abraham fell face down. He laughed and said to himself, will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? I mean, he literally was cackling. It's a make a great movie.

Will Sarah bear a child at the age of 90? And Abraham said to God, if only Ishmael might live under your blessing. Ishmael was a son that 10 years earlier when God told him about this plan, then obviously nothing was happening. And so Sarah said, well, maybe God meant for you to sleep with my, you know, or marry my hand servant, my, you know, and Hagar and have a child by her.

And so they did it. They managed that. And so Ishmael is now a son of Abraham, but he's not the son. And so just to set that, we didn't set that up. Which would be Isaac. So I'm going to skip down to verse 24. And then we're going to go back to Colossus. Abraham was 99 years old when he was circumcised

and his son Ishmael was 13. Abraham, his son Ishmael, were both circumcised on that same day and every male in Abraham's household, including those born in the household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him. And so I'm not sure when Isaac comes on to the scene, chapter 21. Yeah, she's going to get pregnant later. And then we go through the scene of then God asking Abraham

to offer his son, Isaac, which was going to be a shadow to Jesus dying and being buried and being raised. You can read Hebrews 11, where it talks about Abraham and see what all this is for. So we did all that because in Colossians, when he makes that statement that you were circumcised in Christ, He's now relating what happened with the promise with Abraham is now a reality in Christ but instead of the Jewish men cutting off the skin of the males eight days old

or in, I mean Abraham got the worst end of that deal because he had to get circumcised at 99. Sure it took him a couple days to get over that. I think I'll navigate it. that as good as I can. Well, there was a scene, Jace, later when they were all, they had gotten away from God and they weren't practicing circumcision, and then they went back to God, and God had the whole nation circumstice.

Exactly. So, you know, it happened. So look, so now let's go back and read this, because I think we can understand it. And that way we won't be so confused, and we won't avoid this passage because it's too confusing. So back to Colossians 2-9. for in Christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form and you've been given fullness in Christ who is the head over every power and authority

in him you are also circumcised now watch this statement in the putting off of the old sinful flesh or some some versions say sinful nature it's a hard phrase to define but it's think whatever that presence in your human body that is giving you the choice to sin and be a sinner and the desires to, you know, to do wrong. That part of your human old self, think Adam rather than Jesus that has been this trained since. Which, by the way, this is why I believe he chose that symbol, God I'm talking about, in a male.

was because it was all about the physical. It was all about this is how you propagate. This is where your power comes from. This is your physical. This is also where you can have fleshly desires lived out with other people. So I think that's why he chose this particular thing. That's just my... All right.

So we'll get there. So verse 11 says, in him you were also circumcising the putting off of the old sinful flesh, not with the circumcision done by the hands of men, but with a circumcision done by Christ. So here he's making an illustration. You say, well, what's he illustrated? Because in this case, Christ is the one doing the cutting.

This is not Jewish people back under this promise that God made with Abraham. This is a new sort of promise. So watch what he says. Verse 12, having been buried with him in baptism. Well, now all of a sudden, this really gets complicated because he's likening this process, in my opinion, to the physical act of baptism and raised with him. Now watch how this phrase goes.

Through your faith in the working of God who raised him from the dead. So we're going to stop there, and I wrote this down so I would be, I could read what I think is the parallel, and then if Zach or you disagree with me. So here's what I think he's saying. So you had circumcision, which was a physical act showing your identity that, I'm going back to Genesis, that you're part of the Jewish nation, and that this is a sign of God's promise that through Abraham's offspring, which would eventually come Jesus, all nations and all people would be blessed.

So then you have what Jesus, is offering here in baptism, which I think is a physical act that changes the heart, just like it did in the Jewish nation, based on God's promise. And I think in this case, the promise is the Holy Spirit. Now, the reason I think that, I'm going to just give you one verse, but if you read John 14, remember with his disciples, Jesus promised that he would not leave disciples, his orphans, and he would give them the Holy Spirit, the counselor. But in Acts chapter 2, when the first sermon is preached by Peter, the Holy Spirit has been poured

out. Peter preaches the gospel, remember? And you get to verse 36, and they say, what do we do? And Peter said, this Christ is Lord in Christ. They said, what do we do? He said, repent and be baptized, every one of you. Now we're bringing up baptism here, just like he's doing in Colossians, Paul is. Well, then they're baptized, and then you remember the next verse,

says, the promise is for you and your children and for all. Now, why's he bringing that up in that moment in Acts 2, 38, and 39? Because I think it makes more sense when you throw in Jesus' baptism. So you think, well, why was Jesus baptized? Well, we just read that he had given the fullness of Christ, dwells in bodily form. Then it says, and you've been given fullness. Well, what happened at Jesus' baptism?

You see the fullness of the deity. And he even said it was to fulfill all righteousness. Yeah, you have the father. Look, saying what? He identifies him. He said, this is my son. Well, I'm just saying, based on my pitch, what I'm saying is he's like.

circumcision from an identity standpoint, because this started off with, in Christ, you've been giving fullness in Christ. So to me, when you hear Jesus and you surrender to him, he promises you His Holy Spirit, but he's identifying you now in Christ. So there is a physical act in that you are actually being dunking. underwater, but he's being real clear. Christ is doing the cutting and God is doing the working.

And so what is happening? All you're doing is something is dying just like the skin would be dead once it's removed from the flesh. Physical stand of a spiritual heart. Yeah, I would, I would say that probably have a little different understanding of baptism that the water baptism or the physical baptism that happens in water is a symbol. It's a picture. It's a physical picture of what is happening in the spiritual baptism, which is what I think the main point is. It's kind of like the same thing with the Lord's Table,

communion, the Eucharist, whatever you call it. We're not Catholic or Lutheran, so we don't believe in what's called transubstantiation. that I don't believe that the actual elements become the actual physical blood of Christ and the physical body of Christ. I believe they're elements. So they're symbols of the real thing. And so I think baptism is the same way. It's a symbol.

Water baptism is a symbol of the real thing. And one of the reasons why I believe that is because in Mark 3, 11, when John the Baptist says, I baptized with water, so he's given a type of baptism, those who repent of their sins. sins and turn to God, but someone is coming after soon, who is greater than I am, so much greater that I'm not worthy even to be a slave or carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. So you kind of see a distinction there in that text. There's water baptism, and then this one coming is going to baptize with the Holy Spirit. Now, there is a water baptism associated with the baptism of the Spirit. It's the outward baptism that we participate in, but it's

The point is, is that it's, it's, it's the old man, the old self-dying, like the water, Peter says that there's nothing magic in the water. It's not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but it's the pledge of a good conscience towards God that saves you by the resurrection. Well, he doesn't, he doesn't say there's nothing magical about the water. He just says it's the removal of the body. I mean, he says, well, he says it's not the removal of dirt from the flesh. Yeah, I was just correcting your statement.

Yeah. You said Peter, Peter said there's nothing magical about the water. That part's not in there, but you were, I agree, I agree with you. There is nothing magical about the water. But, I mean, I think we're agreeing mostly. The semantics are a little bit different. Well, I think, let me give you my perspective. I think you are in agreement because I think you let it out in this context, Jay,

properly because there is a comparison to circumcision and baptism and a physical concept with a spiritual depth because I love the reading you did in Deuteronomy. You just show that even way back then, God was telling them that this was more about the heart than the flesh. It was a heart. It was a hard issue. That's why I read the Romans too because I think, because Zach's been, you know, which I, for a time of my life did exactly what's that. You know, you immediately want to go to, well, this is what we're not saying. But there's still, there's, you have to address this somehow another. We get it that God saves us from the inside out. And Jesus is what saves us 100%. There's no argument about that.

I feel more comfortable about saying this is done through a physical act because you're actually, what you're doing is saying, I can do nothing. You're surrendering, even in the physical act. Someone is literally dunking you. You just don't want to, I think the problem is that you just don't want to, when you overemphasize that, then you're missing the point of it. But, Zach, it's not an over-incess. It's in the text for a reason.

If you over-emphasize a water baptist. I know what you're saying. I knew you would say that, but I don't think I'm over-emphasizing it. I thought of all things I would use this clever illustration to make my point. Wait a minute, Jay. Do you have time to? Yeah, I got three minutes. So in the movie, the good, bad, and the ugly, there's a scene. They had a scam going.

The ugly, who was Tucko, I'm not calling him ugly. This is literally the movie. The bad was Lee Van Cleef. This is May 1966. It's awesome. Go watch it. There is a few cuss words in it. Clint Eastwood was the good, but they had a scam going.

and the scum was Tucko was such a criminal in a villain that he had a bounty on his head and so And every time he got away the bounty went higher So they just so so he would offer himself To be hung By so the guy who turned him in So Clint Eastwood took over turned him in

He's cussing him the whole time you know and he gets there He's got he puts the rope around his neck and the bad guy, Lee Van Cleese said, when somebody's worth that much money, they always have a guardian angel, which was Clint Eastwood, the good. So as soon as they were fixed to send the horse on the way, Clint Eastwood shoots that rope

because he's already got the reward money. You're like, what does this have to do with baptism? Because Tucco, when he got back, and he got his half of the money, he said, five for you, five for me, five for you, five for me. And he said, look, next time I want more. because I got all the risk. He said, my neck has that rope.

He's like, I'm taking the risk. But what he failed to understand is, Len Eastwood said, well, if my percentage goes down, that might affect my aim. And my point is, look, my point is, he had to put himself for that scam to work, he had to be turned in. There was a, now sure, it was all about Eastwood.

He had all the power. The power was in the gun and his aim. And so I think we try to distance ourselves from the physical act of baptism and its importance when you read the book of Acts, think Acts 8 and the Ethiopian eunuch. It wasn't some, you know, let's go into town and get all the people and say, you know, this is your public display of being part of the church.

I mean, they were in a desert. And you read Acts chapter 12, which, by the way, had the biggest impact on the offensive tackle when I, because he's like, what about baptism? He asked me about it. I read Colossians too. I went through it. But I said, look, this is about Jesus. But when I read that Acts 8, and he said, he was reading Isaiah, he was reading the good news about Jesus.

And it says, then they came to some water. It's two men. And he said, well, why shouldn't it be baptized? And Philip said, stop the chariot. And they went down there, and he baptized him, and he went on his way of rejoicing, and Philip left. And, oh, big boy, the tackle said, I need to stop the chariot moment.

There was no denying who was doing the cutting. Who did the saving? But what I'm not saying is, I'm not saying that I'm not diminishing water baptism. I'm not even trying to, like, not emphasize it. I'm just saying, I don't think that's what the text is talking about. I think the text is not talking about water baptism, because if you read it in verse 11, when he says, in him, also you were circumcised with the circumcision made without hands

by putting off the body of flesh by the circumcision of Christ, and then he brings into baptism to describe what he just meant. But we don't put all, we don't actually kill, like physically kill our physical. physical flesh. No. Even the Greek word, their flesh. Zach, it's just like circumcision. They were physically being circumcised, but he was saying it's more a circumcision of the heart.

It's just a symbolic sign. Exactly. So that to the point I think he's making it, it's like you're, you guys were focused. They were focused on the physical and they missed what, what I was accomplishing here. So the back, so we can't remember return back to another form of physical. circumcision and just call it physical baptism. Physical baptism is representative of the spiritual reality that Christ is bringing now. And so even the Greek word that is used for the word flesh, it doesn't necessarily mean physical.

It just means the sinful desires. It's the putting away of that guy, that old, that old Zach. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. We agree with the conclusion, but not how we got there, which is fine. We need way more time. Well, you know what? Luckily for us, we got another podcast coming, so we'll pick it up right here next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to The Unashamed podcast.

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