Unblinded with Sean Callagy - Laird Hamilton: The Mindset That Changed Surfing Forever | Sean Callagy

Episode Date: September 29, 2026

What does it take to redefine an entire sport and continually push beyond what everyone believes is possible?In this unforgettable episode of Unblinded, Sean Callagy sits down with legendary waterman Laird Hamilton for a conversation that goes far beyond surfing. Known for pioneering big-wave tow surfing, helping launch stand-up paddleboarding and hydrofoil surfing, Laird shares the mindset that allowed him to challenge conventional thinking throughout his life and career.Together, Sean and Laird explore fear, innovation, resilience, leadership, longevity, generosity, and the importance of embracing discomfort as the pathway to growth. Laird reflects on his childhood in Hawaii, learning through adversity, the life-changing experiences that shaped his philosophy, and the remarkable stories behind some of the most iconic moments in surfing history. Whether you're an entrepreneur, athlete, leader, or simply someone looking to push beyond your own perceived limitations, this episode offers timeless lessons on courage, curiosity, and living life without ceilings.Timestamps00:00 – Introduction: Meeting Laird Hamilton02:08 – Growing Up in Hawaii & Early Life Lessons08:12 – Adversity, Family & Building Resilience13:46 – Why Kindness and Character Matter18:05 – Following Passion Instead of Competition23:04 – Chasing the World's Biggest Waves28:18 – Inventing Tow-In Surfing32:11 – How Innovation Changes Everything36:42 – Breaking Through Human Limits41:20 – Sean's Big Wave Dream45:05 – Fear, Preparation & Staying Calm Under Pressure50:18 – The Incredible Shark Rescue Story58:45 – Every Ceiling Is Just a Better Method Waiting to Be Found01:04:12 – Longevity, Curiosity & Never Stopping Growth01:10:18 – Teamwork, Leadership & Trust01:16:25 – Legacy, Family & Living Generously01:22:14 – Athena's Insights & Sean's Biggest Takeaways01:27:35 – Final Reflections on Purpose & Human PotentialEpisode HighlightsLaird shares the mindset that transformed big-wave surfing forever.The story behind inventing tow-in surfing and pushing beyond accepted limits.Why fear should be respected, not avoided.Growing up in Hawaii and learning resilience through adversity.The incredible shark rescue that became surfing legend.Why innovation begins when you stop accepting current limitations.The role of preparation in performing under extreme pressure.How teamwork and trust save lives in dangerous environments.Why longevity depends on curiosity and continual learning.Lessons on leadership, generosity, and creating a lasting legacy.Memorable Quotes"Every ceiling is simply the limit of the current method.""Fear is information. Preparation is what allows you to move through it.""Innovation begins where comfort ends.""Your greatest competition is who you were yesterday.""Legacy isn't what people remember about you. It's what you leave inside other people."End NoteIf you are facing fear, uncertainty, or a challenge that feels bigger than you, this conversation is your reminder that growth rarely happens inside your comfort zone. Laird Hamilton's journey shows that every breakthrough begins with the courage to challenge what's considered impossible. Share this episode with someone who's ready to embrace their next big wave and remember: your greatest limitations are often just the starting point for your greatest innovations.

Some people are built by life. He built himself out of cold water, open ocean, and a refusal to accept any ceiling as final. He swam a mile against the current, injured in shark-infested water to save his teammates' life. Then, the moment that teammate was safe, he went back out. Not because he was reckless. Because that is who he is. The truest living example of what becomes possible when identity never gociates with conditions. Laird Hamilton.

surf an effing big wave. So do you think we have a shot? Well, so my mom used to say, you know, the way God punishes you is he give you what he asked for. So we can definitely accommodate you. Okay. And we'll bring you back in one piece. And he is down to the bone and he's bleeding to death in the ocean.

So Larry gets, like, naked in the ocean and like takes off his clothes. and makes a tourniquet. If you were naked and you were swimming a mile offshore in an area that you knew that there were some big sharks, you'd be an incredible swimmer. If you're truly generous, you'll risk your life for someone. How are you doing, sir? Very well, thank you.

Thank you so much for being here. I'm honored to meet you and meet your beautiful people. Thank you. And as these folks know, because we're, We were going to surprise them with your coming today, but we decided, because it just fit in a moment, I decided to share that you were coming. You know, these folks know out there how inspiring you are to me,

how inspiring you are in the world, and certainly many of these people were inspired by you before hearing your name here. Some discovered it, and uniformly these people are truly deeply moved. So what I'd love to do if it's okay with you is just, you know, maybe begin at the beginning. And Hawaii, being born, being three, sort of what was that journey into the water and life like for you? Well, my mother met her high school sweetheart and got pregnant. And then it was a 60, so he wanted to be a merchant Marine and she was pregnant. and so he left and she had to figure out what she was going to do.

And she went to San Francisco and I was born there. She actually worked at a fair right before and was able to get like a free hospital thing done in San Francisco. They did some experiments on her. I'm not sure if that had an effect on me or not. Well, if it was a good one. Exactly. And then she just took me, you know, she, she, she grew up. up in a surf culture in Southern California.

She took me to, and it was, you know, it was obviously the 60s, it was the war, it was all the stuff that was going on, and it was like, you know, they called it, the surfers called it the rat race, and we need to get out of here. So she took me to Hawaii because that represented paradise. And as an infant, I was kind of subjected to, you know, Surf surfers and surfing I went You know I can remember being pushed in

On little waves when I was Probably two years old and falling on urchins and Having both butt cheeks impaled To the point where I couldn't sit down for a couple of weeks and you know Left an impact on me of course and in me But you know the And then we move to What was the most dangerous beach in the in at the time?

time. My mother said that I could actually crawl to the pool and swim before I could, before I could walk. I don't know if that's a, wow, truth or not, but I would go to the pool and they always had to watch because I would always just go to the water. Maybe it's being a Pisces or something as something to do that. I'm not sure. But, uh, and then I, we moved to the most dangerous beaches in the world. And, and I, that, I learned how to swim, uh, at the most dangerous beach in the world. And, uh, actually, I learned how to not drown. That was really a better thing.

More importantly, never mind the swimming, just don't drown. And I got rescued a lot as a young child and all of the men that were around me were all watermen. You know,

they were all kind of the fearless group of surfers that were going out in the big surf in Hawaii. And so that was, you know, I wanted to emulate that. I looked at that and I was like, I want to,

that's what I, you know, it'd be like if you grew up next to a stadium, and you were like, hey, I want to be like that guy. He's the champ. And so that was a foundation. You know, I introduced my dad to my mom. I liked that's the story they let me tell.

I think he knew my mom was very attractive. And so he acted like he never met her. And I'm like, hey, come meet. And so technically I chose someone who I thought would be like what my dad would be. and I was out five, probably four when I introduced her, but five when they got married. He was young and a great surfer, handsome. I mean, it's kind of crazy because in a ways, you know, my wife has seen pictures of him when he was young. And she's like, she thought that they were me.

Like that's, you know, and no relation, like no relation. But like, oh, yeah, is that you? And I'm like, no, that's Bill when he was young. And so I had that, I had, I had, I had that dynamic initially and then it turned into kind of a competition between him and I. Wow. And Hawaii, you know, I can, I don't, I never cry poor me, but when you're, you look like I do and you're in Hawaii, you kind of, you know, you're like a descendant of Captain Cook who destroyed the place. So they don't love you. So I had that and my family was poor.

we grew up next to a pig farm and I grew up next to kind of farming, fishing, hunting, all that kind of stuff. So I had all that as I was growing up to help teach me and was always attracted to the ocean because that was a place that I found equality that, you know, I always say we're all equal before a wave. There was no discrimination. I didn't care how rich, how smart, how strong. It was the only thing that separated you from the other people was what you knew and what they didn't. And so I really liked that because that was something that I could actually perfect. So if I got better at it, the better I got at it, the more I could separate myself. And maybe it was a place to look for respect. I always would say, hey, I don't care if you like me, but you'll

respect me. And so I worked on that and I had a natural, I had a natural inklinging for danger. I just was like a little daredevil And I think that's what probably drove my mom into an early grave I think my mom you know she always thought I was going to die He was like oh he lived to six oh he lived a eight you know He lived to ten wow he's twelve he made it you know he's 14th It was like every you know every day every year was it was you know Crazy stuff and we live like like a little bit like wild Indians in the jungle no shoes no pants

Maybe shorts lucky if you had a t-shirt using no shirts just surf shorts in the jungle and sharp things and coral and strong riptides. And so that that was kind of the foundation of my school was terrible. Not a place I wanted to be. You know, you're in the tropics. It's beautiful. There's surfing. And then you're going to go sit in this like room and be with a bunch of people that don't

like you. And you had to ride the bus for two hours each way. And I was just like, I seemed to miss that a lot, that bus. Like a lot. Like a lot. Like most of the time. Like I just think I missed that bus and so that so I had that as my kind of my foundation and then And then as I grew I just

Was attracted to to to bigger and bigger Situations and and and I think because of my background like all the things that we had to do You know we'd always have to fix everything because you didn't have there was no one to call you didn't call somebody to fix things you fixed them or you knew somebody in your neighborhood who fixed you fixed them or you knew somebody in your neighborhood who them so you learned how to fix them so I think that helped me be creative they did some weird stuff to me in my education which affected my reading initially and my mom used to read some amazing books to me growing up she she read like the Lord of the Rings and Jonathan and Liby's and Siegel and all these beautiful books to me to expand my imagination and so and I think we had we had TV but we had rabid ears

with aluminum foil and we had a bare tin roof so you'd watch a movie on TV that you could barely see and then the rain would come right at the conclusion and so you'd always just never hear what happened you'd be over there by the speaker and you're like it was disgusting so it wasn't you know and then the TV went off and didn't go on until the next day so we didn't have a lot of you know we didn't have a lot of outside interference and then I was able to be with Hawaiians that were beautiful, the Polynesians and learn there. They still lived off the land at that time. There was no Costco yet.

That kind of put a hammering on that, like hunting or go to Costco. Well, easier to go to Costco. So, but I was kind of like a little bit of a time forgotten. And I think that definitely has had a huge impact on my creativity, on my ability to kind of problem solve, all those things that really, really helped me in the pursuit of of kind of my passion. And, you know, my mom didn't, I think the first time my mom saw me surf, she might have been like in her late 30s or something like that.

Wow. Maybe early 40s. And we were surfing at Jaws. It was giant. And somebody goes, oh, Laird's on a wave. And I think they said she walked out to the cliff. She looked and she just turned around and goes, I can't watch this. And so, wow.

So, but my mom was always about just how you wore. as a person, you know, like what kind of person you were, how you treated people. And that's what, like that was the rule. Like, I don't care what you do. When you do it, do it the best to your ability. And I don't care if you're sweeping the floor. Sweep the floor perfectly as best you can, 100%. And so it didn't matter what the task was.

It was always about completion and giving it your best effort. And so and she worked, you know, my mother worked very hard growing up. She was, my stepdad didn't just wanted to serve. And so he wanted to be on welfare. And my mom's like, I'm embarrassed to go to the store and pay with food stamps. And I'm not going to use discount coupons. And so she started going to work and eventually started the first helicopter company in Hawaii that toured because she had a friend that was a Vietnam vet and eventually just built the whole life for herself and for us. I mean, I can remember my mom going to the laundromat.

I mean, we had all kinds of rules at my house. The one I lived in had been moved twice by tidal waves. We had like screen windows and a bare tin roof. And like I said, when it rained hard, you couldn't really talk because it was so loud. And it rains a lot on Kauai. It's the wettest place in the world. And so there was a lot of not talking, you know. So I say, so I want everybody to know this I could for one sec, that so.

We've had a lot of incredible people on this podcast. And they've been, like, nice folks. Some have acted very nicely. Some have been a little more interesting. So, you know, this is Leonard Hamilton, and he's in the house, like, taking my plate. And, like, I'm going to throw this away. and no, I got the water and I'm going to help do.

He's like, I'm carrying the surfboard. I'm like, Larry, please. I don't like carrying a surfboard. Like, that's crazy. He's like, of course I'm going to carry the surfboard. And he's like, what do you want to do now? What do I do next? And I'm like, oh, if you need a break, to rest,

I could chill any time I want to. Like, I'm here to spend time and like, let's go do stuff. And I just want to say, how grateful I am and how much he lives his words. You know, we hear people say, well, my mom taught me, and we had rules, and you do things, you do it right. Like, that could sound like a cliche, except when you're actually living it.

And I got to experience that, not because of him just being in the water today, which was the dream come true for me. And again, thank you. But I'm sitting there, and he's carrying surfboards, and he's picking up plates carrying them and not only his own but like trying to take mine and take it um so let's give it up for that please yeah no thank you right so thank you and um we do we do live in a time uh please

that when you help people it's a novelty and it's kind of weird in a way i'm like you do what you're supposed to do and that's somehow a novelty um like that seems strange like and that's we're a little bit in that time right now it seems it my wife and i talk about it a lot just like you know acting how you're supposed to being kind being polite doing the things that you're supposed to do is now rare and that's that's a crazy world to live in because that's not what the world's supposed to be and so it's it's yeah i mean I guess everybody has to live by their own code, but I'm just like, be how you're supposed to. And like, wow, that's, you know, and I'm not saying that, you know, that no one's doing that.

But if you, when you live in this world, it seems rare that when people are actually, you know, just acting like you're supposed to act, be in how you're supposed to be, be polite, be helpful. Do the things that you're supposed to do as a person in a community, as a person part of the human race. It's like, hey, somebody's hurt. Help them out. something the thing like you know my mom used to take in stray dogs I mean she had this one dog that was this the most mangy dog you've ever seen and I used to have to wash the dog I'm like they wanted to put it down like they're like they're going to put it she's like oh we're not going to put that dog down I think it was in his most snags or something like that but so today and you know continuing this

context um a lot of different people are like we shoot a quick video could you click this could you click that and that was certainly not with their blessing us with it coming here within the scope of what we were talking about. And he just, no problem, no problem, no problem, no problem. And at some point I'm like, oh yeah, no, they're also, you know, with us here. And he said, you know, okay, cool. He goes, but I'd do the same thing if they weren't, right? And that's just for all of us.

Why am I saying this? Not only because to acknowledge that which we would hope people would act like, but most don't. But also to let everybody know, when you're interacting with people who hold a tremendous identity value, a lot of those folks, or at least some of those folks,

will be very kind and generous people like Magic Johnson was to Darren. Like Laird was to people all over that beach today, and neighbor walking down the street. you know so don't i invite you to not limit your thinking that because somebody's achieved a certain level of identity or relationship capital or monetary capital or skill set that they will not potentially be an open-hearted good person don't take advantage of that right seek to add values what we say but a conversation can be opened far more offensive

that you might think. So thank you. Yeah. Well, because it's easy, I think, to be, to let judgment get in the way, right? We just think, oh, they're like that. So this is how it is. I think, you know, I feel like you always want to give somebody an opportunity. Now that they prove you right, that what you think is right, then, you know, cool.

But maybe they'll prove you wrong soon. So. Thank you. And so can I ask this? Yes. As you're developing and surfing, I guess, part question is like when do you first begin to see yourself separating and skill and how does earning an income earning a living like at what stage does that sort of move into the equation I know when we were

joking you know teasing I know modeling is there surfing is there like what's the evolution of that surf separation and how Laird Hamilton begins to earn a living Well, first of all, because my route was so unorthodox, you know, I was not participating in contest because I watched my stepdad surfing contest. I watched the judgment and the way the system was run. I didn't want to subject my performance to that criteria, which made it more difficult to earn a living. and you know I always I tell my daughters I go find your special purpose you know find the thing that that really brings you a passion I go you if you're fortunate enough to get to do that as your as your job shame on you but you know but or you'll subsidize it and so in a way I the a lot of the things I was

doing initially was to just subsidize I would do anything to subsidize my ability to keep to keep pursuing my goal and and I believed in my heart that if I could just be the best I could be that that that that would take care of you know the monetary side of things that if I that that that that would be an after effect I just I believe in ideas and I think that that that the result that the that the financial rewards only only confirm the idea how big it is. You know, it's like just Steve Jobs idea around a phone, you know, that's his idea. And the result is, is, it is what he thought it was. So it's really idea based. And then, and then, uh, and then I was fortunate as I went, I had, I got, you know, I got sponsors. I got, I mean, because

when you looked at what I was doing, it was like, well, people pay you because you get exposure, right? And so in a way, like, if you get exposure, people will pay you. And so, and so, So for me, it was like, okay, well, if I can, if I can, you know, be the best I can be and do, and do, and let, and let the chips fall where, where they may. And I would have subsidized it. I, I know how to run an excavator. I can, I can work. I'm not scared of work and then I, I do work and have work and will work. And so I was never afraid of it. It wasn't trying to avoid it. It was just that I was able to turn that into a business. I was able to turn my, my art, because technically it's my art. It's, it's, my self-expression riding giant waves is just I'm expressing who I am and and what's in me and so in a way that through that true pursuit of expression it's allowed you know it turned into it turned into a business and you know and that began to change some of the ways I looked about it as well because I then I was having to adjust what I was doing for that and took some of the some of the soul I of it. But from that came a lot of other other opportunities. And so, you know, I modeled at some

point for a little while just because that was easy money. They go, yeah, go stand there, take a picture and then, and then, you know, you get some money and go surf for, you know, another year. So listen, so for everybody, this is really the point of the entire immersion. It just go all go model and get pictures taking yourself and then you can do whatever you want. So yes, if you're up for that, say yes. Perfect. Okay. So.

Maybe not what you're thinking, but. So weird. So, but if I could, what, see, you're surfing. Yeah. And this is developing. And your mom's like, oh my God, he made it to like eight. And then he made it to 11. Yay.

Like, oh my God, he turned 14. That's incredible. Um, how was the concept? the concept because if you're not clear there's um and i don't want to there's a famous surfer because i don't want to say anything that lyrs doesn't mean private and say it publicly but a famous surfer who is very competition based and very successful you know surfing on much smaller ways then came to like lard's backyard and was like yeah peace out no thanks right so there's a world of surfing that is on a much smaller

wave size where you do cool things on waves and they're incredibly masterful, talented people. And then this other world evolved and developed that Laird pioneered of surfing on bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger waves. So if you don't mind taking us through how that was sort of evolving and prior to you coming along, like how and there's many different ways to measure wave size. Like we've been through this, this is a very triggering dynamic for Laird. right, of like what a wave size is and that's not the measure of a wave. There could be big waves that are easier and small waves than much harder. But what I'm looking to enter into the space of is where you started to break from the one context,

which is surf smaller, you know, but good size. Competition based. It's because it was more tangible. So they had surf competitions and they, you know, it's like gymnastics. You know, you bring the American gymnastikist to Russia. and you're confused why they're losing because you have Russian judges. And so, I mean, I experienced that. And the industry was really built around that because it was more, it's framework.

We can have it on Sunday at 1 o'clock down here at Jersey Beach. And so everybody shows up. But big waves, you have to be, you have to wait and could be months. I mean, they come during a certain period. But I always felt because as a young man, surfing was evolving in the competition aspect. was growing. And so there was two groups. There was like what we call free surfing, which were the people that were just surfing. And then there was like the competition. And so I watched that and I was like, I felt like if I can surf the biggest waves in the world the best, then I don't care what you're doing.

That doesn't matter to me. Like I don't care if you're the world champ. That doesn't mean anything to me because I feel like if you surf the biggest, the best, then that would, in my, in my thinking, would mean you're the best. Like, like, you'd be the best at that point because that's the pinnacle, right? And so just because of the danger and the, and the skill and all the, and just everything about it that it takes to do it.

Okay. So at what age did that come into your mind for the first time that I'm going to surf bigger waves and bigger waves and even bigger waves and bigger than that waves? Like what was how old were you and what was some of the stages of that? Well, the first, you know, I always talk about tribal test, you know, like when do you put a male into some tribal test as a, as a, you know, as into manhood and puberty or whatever. Like you get 13, 14. You start getting stronger. You're like, hey, I'm going to go out and and push myself into bigger. If I was younger, you're just not physically strong enough to really be a lot.

able to deal with it and and then you're competing with men at that point and so it started then i think i i was always attracted to it and i was building up as i went it wasn't just a leap of i surfed small waves and then i surf giant waves and then but it was but i did have the opportunity when i was very young that there were a few a few men um that would just they wouldn't even see them unless the surf was was giant which when i say giant i mean like okay 50 foot faces right you so you wouldn't see these guys all of a sudden they'd come out and then everybody else that was surfing all the time that was they were considered

the best surfers well they were nowhere to be found and so I was like that's the group I'm going to emulate those are the guys that I I'm like that's those are the guys for me and so I had that early I had that as a young and I think I was pretty obnoxious as a young man

probably because I was scared and which you know usually usually when you're scared you're obnoxious but So I was obnoxious and I'm going to be the best and blah, blah, blah, blah. I was pretty mouthy and the adults would always say, hey, Larry, just shut up. Be quiet. Stop it.

Do you think that I like him even more now? So. So then it starts at that age and then I start pushing it, right? I'm getting stronger, better at doing it. And I'm getting myself to a point where I start getting to the ceiling, right? I get to the ceiling. I'm in my early 20s. And I'm,

you know, like in most sports, you know, you're in your early 20s and you're, you know, you're at the, I'm at the level. I'm at the top of performance in my,

in my genre and big wave writing. And so I'm just, I'm pushing that. And then, uh, and then there gets a point where there's a ceiling, right? There's a ceiling where,

where the waves, uncertain days are too big or too stormy for us to go and and and ride them and and I'm not satisfied with that and so and at the same time we're we're we're doing a bunch of other disciplines we're windsurfing we're doing all this crazy crazy stuff and getting on we're going out at to sea on wind surfers and getting on giant swells and so I kind of have an epiphany like there's another way and I've had a few of these over the over the years and I have a epiphany that I'm going to be able to, we develop a technique to be towed on.

And so we implement that right away. So I, KSSS before you said we. Yeah. The friends that I could suck out with me, usually I could probably convince somebody. I mean, normally parents would always say, you can't play with Laird.

Because I, like, you're not allowed to play with Laird because they usually come home with stitches or something would happen because it would be like, you know, like, hey, Laird said to, and then they'd be hurt. You know, so parents are like, hey, you can't play with Laird. It was always like, I think for a parent, it was like high anxiety if your child was with Laird. Because somewhere in there, something, it's either a bike off a giant, just something bad. It's always bad.

But here's the fun part, right? This is, and this is what being a G-Hick, we call it growth-driven, heart-centered, integris, committed to mastery is about, I seek this out because I am that person with all the people I know is the person that's like, don't go to the water which on, don't go on the ski mat and what you're on. But then what I find is where I can go back to being the gecko to Godzilla. And that's what you're all doing here. And it's so exciting. I love meeting people who are exponentially better than me.

at things I love. So this is like complete insanity for me today. And again, thank you so much. Because I'm that guy that's like, well, be careful. Don't hang out that guy. If you heard from people at some point,

don't go listen to Sean. Don't go hang out with Sean say yes. Right. So thank you. And it makes me even want to be more like that now. Because I have a large gap to close because I'm a gecko and that's Godzilla. So there's always a Godzilla and we're always a gecko, so that's important. Thank you.

And so as you are, so had anybody, to your knowledge, been going into waves, toe surfing on a jet ski or was like your crew with a first, was a couple of other pods? Like how did how to how to how to when did that happen and like what's that backstory? Well it I mean it started before jet skis so there wasn't even jet skis and I had I had one of my first jobs was driving like those zodiacs that the Navy SEALs have and I grew up driving those in kind of in and out of the surf and through waves so I knew how to drive and I had another friend that had the same experience so we started with it with inflatables originally and it happened the original thing happened in the summer at the surf was small. We were just playing around. I always say great ideas come out of boredom. So do you, like, do you relate to yourself? And I, and he's very humble.

So I think he doesn't like these questions, but I'm just fascinated. As the inventor of toe surfing. Yes. Let's hear for that. Yes. Yes. That is amazing. And I related to you that way, but sometimes, you know, people can be,

falsely modest. Yeah. No. Yeah. That is unbelievable. Yes. Thank you. That is seriously unbelievable.

Thank you. I can take credit for a couple of things if you want. Yeah. No, seriously. You want me to? Yes. Stand up paddling. Please.

Stand up paddling. What about stand up paddling? I'm the first guy to do standup paddling. Let's hear for that. I did I did I did I did stand up paddling for eight years before anybody ever did it. And I never seen it done before. And I saw somebody in the Middle East. with a turban on paddling and I went wow it came all the way from my my driveway all the way to the

middle east if you knew that about Laird Hamilton before today say yes I didn't I didn't know that that's crazy and I and I if you want to go to another one I could say credit for foiling too wow is we were the first one we were the first one to foil yeah so I took Fernando to Colorado Beach yeah and in Puerto Rico oh he came I shouldn't say

took him and he started foiling so I was step off surfing and frando was foiling yeah so I haven't foiled he has so yeah laird is convinced that

foiling is in my future Fernando yes absolutely absolutely so so I'm so in a way you know I think you got foiling stand up I mean I was involved on the early stages of kiting

not I wouldn't say because I wasn't the first one to do kiting, but we were involved in that. So I've been involved kind of in some, in that process. And I, and I, and I do believe there's a formula for that, that,

that, a what? A what? A what? Yeah. So there's, there's a formula of, for creativity, right?

There's a certain thing. First, you have to have the idea, right? And, but to truly have the idea, you have to, the idea that you have, you have to be able to see what the idea will actually result in. You have to see the end first. You have to see, if I do this and this happens, I can do that.

Because an idea without a destination is a misled idea. So I think seeing the picture, having the light go off and go, hey, listen, if I get pulled on, I can let go and ride this giant wave, then you implement it. But you have to see the end thing. And then you have to go through the arduous process of, not being discouraged, right, by the failure because you're going to build prototypes. They're not going to work.

You're going to build another prototype. It might take six months. Breaks doesn't work. One works doesn't work that well. Like you just have all this. People will discourage you. You know, there was a great woman entrepreneur. I heard that she's, they asked her, well, what would you do if you had a really good

idea? And she goes, well, I just wouldn't tell anybody for a year. And I'm like, and we asked why. And she goes, well, because they'll discourage you. And so you realize that people love to discourage you because they don't take advantage of their ideas. So they have ideas and they're, they're, when you have one and you're pursuing it, they don't want to, they don't, they're not pursuing theirs. So then what's their excuse? So they're like, hey, don't pursue yours too and that'll make me feel better. So it's,

it's a weird little mental game that people play. So, but I'm fortunate in that I'm undiscurigible. Like you can't, like I don't care. I mean, I've had people tell me how it sucked and it wasn't real. I mean, and the truth is that tow in was really not. expected. People were, we're kind of slandering it for a good solid eight to 10 years. And it wasn't until we rode a wave in that wave in Tahiti. That's why it was monumental that it really gained the respect that that it deserved because we were saying, hey, we're doing some miraculous stuff. And they just kind of kept pushing it off like that's not surfing. You're not paddling, blah, blah, blah, blah. But we're like, hey, we're we're performing and riding on bigger waves than

have ever been ridden. Is that not good enough for you? And you still have the consequences. You You still have to ride the wave. You have the consequences of crashing on the wave. You know, you still have all the things, right? And it's even worse now. Much bigger. Yeah, but bigger consequences. So I think that was a big piece of it.

Team, do we have that picture, the picture, not the video of Laird up? Yes, no. Yeah. Make the sound of that. Yeah. And is that, is that the Tahiti? Yeah. Yeah.

And so, because I had the words I would say, but I want to be really precise, how have people described that ride? Well, that was on the cover of Surfer Magazine and the caption was, holy shit. So, I mean, you know, I cried after that, after that session. I had tears in my eyes just because it had been, and that was when I was 35. Wow. So that came along.

That came along. No, it's here for that. Yeah. And didn't people say certain things like, and I, and I know that, again, Laird things, people are imprecise and say inaccurate things, but weren't there versions of that that was the hardest? Unridable. Unridable. Yeah. Unridable.

Unridenable. Unridingable. That wave was unridingable. Before you? Yes. Before you. Yes. Yes.

Yes. And then, I mean, I described it a little bit like the four minute mile after that. once they understood what was possible, it changed the whole thinking. It's like if you know about the four minute mile, how the first guy that broke it, once he broke it, then the next year,

27 people break it because it becomes in our consciousness. But it's just breaking, you know, my friend has just saying, someone must go first to lead the way, right? And so there's, and so there is something to that. Once you see what's possible,

then you break that barrier of impossibility. Because it's, what do they say? It's all mental, right? all is mental. So we create these barriers that we can't get past. Oh, you can't do that.

That can happen. And I think that once you see it happen, then you go, oh, no, that can happen. And then that changes the mentality. Yeah. And so I was chatting with Laird this morning, which was just such a gift. And I was discussing my journey in surfing. And can I ask an honest question? how when you heard because Laird had no idea who I was right

when you heard like blind surf water and he does not falsely compliment nor am I looking for a false compliment at all zero I'm just really curious like I'm relating to him now as like coach what were you thinking I might look at I didn't see board surfing with some body surfing today how what were you I'm thinking I might look like in the water once we're going in versus what it was for my coaching, you know, from today's experience. Well, I mean, the first thing I was thinking is what it's like to be blind. So I was like, did you see and you know what things look like or did you never see and not know what they look like?

And then just the dynamics of surfing and that can you feel? Are you feeling it? Because you can feel it for sure. you know surfing has a unique thing that you can sense what's happening you know when it's going to break on top of your head you just do you i don't care if your eyes are closed you can't see or not you just know this thing's gonna break on top of my head right now and so i just ran through all those those thoughts in my head and and uh and so it's uh i mean it's amazing you're amazing congratulations for your and you know it's a burden and the blessing, as they say? Yeah. I think all of it is. So we also discussed the possibility because I got at one point in time when I first heard

of Laird Hamilton. And I'd heard of him before this, but I really had a deeper understanding from this incredible book that was written called The Wave, which was about waves, but very much focused on Lard Hamilton, other outlying stories. But he's the core of the book. It's incredible. and I was like, wow, that really stinks that I'm blind, and it really stinks that I didn't surf earlier in life.

I'll never be able to do something like that. And something I remembered as I was in the shower getting ready to come here. When I was going through, I was divorced twice, and in my second divorce, I remember thinking, like sometimes you go through a moment, like you want to do something, like I'm going to surf an effing big wave. Like, I'm going to do that, right?

And this was back 10 years ago. And shortly thereafter, I'm like, I'm blind. Like, I basically just started surfing, sort of, right? There's no way that's ever going to happen. And a short time ago, I read about this person who had surfed a giant wave who was blind and Laird's like oh yeah that's blah blah blah I trained him so and now I'm and I ask Laird you know I see him as a very authentic person um hey what are your thoughts he's like my thoughts are that incrementally we have exactly what you would need to do that so I am saying

to the unblinded ecosystem to, you know, and hear group influence LBI and the podcast, that I am 100% committing to take that to the highest level and see if I could get up on a giant wave. And I'm going to pursue that through the ecosystem of Laird Hamilton. So, and I'm very, very grateful for that.

And so that's my half. Well, so my mom used to say, you know, the way God punishes you. you is to give you what you asked for. So we can definitely accommodate you. Okay. And we'll bring you back in one piece. Thank you.

Okay. So do you think we have a shot? What is your perspective? And could I ask this? We talked about it in the house. Yep. And then we went in the ocean. Yep.

Did my stock fall, rise, or stay the same on the possibility of that accomplishment? Oh, no. you're you're we're we're we can give you what you want no problem wow you heard you can you can you'll you'll we can guide you into you know a large enough wave that you'll be more than satisfied no maniacal cackling Bella are we going to put Bella on a giant wave too Not well I'll tell you a story so when at one point we weren't in the beginning we didn't wear flotation devices now all big way of riding everybody's wearing flotation right and that was a really big breakthrough in the beginning we we never we thought it was a liability to have flotation and and and I have a friend who's surfing with us and his wife said hey you have to wear flotation and we were like oh man you got to wear flotation he's he goes, yeah, well, she said she can't collect a life insurance unless she has the body. And she was dead serious.

And by the way, so we took it. He surfed and he popped right up and we were like, amazing. So then after that, we started implementing flotation. And now flotation is prevalent and all that. I mean, now they have pole cords to create air and they're wearing flotation. So which is, which has, you know, some of these things. can create, you know, they induce greater courage, you know, like it makes people feel a little more invincible.

But, but you'll definitely have rotation. Let's just to be clear. All right. Perfect. So what's the longest you've ever been held down under a wave? I mean, normally, normally when the surf's big, if you're held down two waves, that's a problem, right? So I've been held down two waves one time, and it was, it was foiling.

and in the early days of foiling, we were riding foiling in Giant Surf, and we were booted to the board. So we were connected to the board and the stuff, it was all metal. They were pretty heavy, and so I got held down for two waves, but, you know, that's not, I mean, the closest, I've had a lot of situations

in my life, you know. Like, I've been lost at sea. I got held near a waterfall one time on a rock on the bottom of a giant waterfall and uh and held down for a long time um so there's been a lot there's a long it's you know and now you understand kind of how my mother felt right so you're like so i have had many you know many situations where i shouldn't be here um how long do you think you're under the water and that yeah you know i mean you Seconds seem like minutes, you know, and minutes seems like hours.

I mean, I probably wasn't under the water more than, you know, a minute and something maybe or something. Because if you have, but the thing is, is when you have an elevated heart rate, it's a whole other animal, you know, and most of the training that we do is, is based on elevated heart rate. So I told somebody goes, oh, I can hold my breath for five minutes. And I go, okay. So what we're going to do is I'm going to get this dog right here to chase you and you're going to run down that block. And when you finally get to the end, then you're going to hold your breath and then see how long you can hold your breath. And you know what? 20 seconds might as well be five minutes.

So when you have a hell, so we're dealing mostly with that. I think more importantly than holding your breath well is our ability to get to the surface, right? And also be calm in the turbulence. Like when it has you, you don't fight against it. And that's, I think those are the skills that you develop growing up, you know, playing in the shore break. You know, you have the wave. It's got you. You don't fight the wave when it has you.

I told somebody it's like wrestling a giant guy. If you have a guy and has you pinned, that's not the time. But when you feel him let up, then you make a move. And so the ocean's the same way. When it has you pinned, you don't resist because you're just going to use air up. And so I think we pride ourselves more on that skill about, you know, our eyes are always closed underwater. We never open our eyes. So we're blind.

We feel where the surface is. we know you know how to you know how to when the wave has you you know how to relax then you know how to when it's and make a move and you try always to get up before the next wave lands on you and like I said in my in my life I've only had one two wave hold down I mean and but I'm saying when the surf's big you have a giant interval like today I could dive under and you could probably have 10 waves go by and but the waves are very close together as the waves get bigger and bigger they get further apart so if you're doing a two wave hold down you're going to be down for more than a minute and with an elevated heart rate, that's a problem.

Like that's where people are drowning. Like you're drowning. If you're not caught on a coral head with your leash or, I mean, just, you know, hit by the, hit the bottom. I mean, there's, you know, just choose the ways. There's a lot of, you know, the week, the month before I rode that wave in Tahiti, a guy hit the reef and, and, and, and, uh, tore half his head off and then eventually died in the hospital. But the, I mean, so it's like, okay, impact. hit by the equipment, held underwater. I mean, you know, there's a lot of, you know, it's like,

choose the ways you want to get it. There's plenty. Team, do we have a video of Laird ready? Okay, let's hit it? I'm not even seeing it. Agee, give me some audio description of what we're saying. Oh, is this, this one, oh, this is, you know what this is? This is point break two.

get blown into the sky. This is, this is a bad wipeout. Yeah, I get, see how I get shot into the air. Yeah, I got, I got hurt on that. Yeah. Wow. They were filming, uh, point break. I don't know if anybody's seen point break. If you see a point break, give it up. Yeah. So they were filming point break and the scene that they're doing, and I'm not even in it. I'm just surfing. And so I did the death scene accidentally because I didn't die. But this is where the guy, goes out to go die, right? He goes out to ride the big wave and die. At the end of point break, when Patrick Swayze gets let go, it's like Viacone Deus and paddles out, this is what this is? This is the new point break, that version in the new one, at Jaws, because the first one was at

Wymea Bay, yeah, was at Wymea Bay and was Derek Doner, a friend of mine that did that original crash, and that wave is more than double the height of the one that, you know, Patrick Swayze supposedly dies on. I got, I got pounded pretty bad on that. wave right there. And I, and I, and I was, I deserved it. I was misbehaving. I did. I was true. I was, I was being a punk. Adam, what did you say? Okay. What do you got, AJ? Tell me. This is to eating. At one point, I'm on the wave and I'm having a little talk between the halo and the horns and it's, hey, you should jump off. If I jump off, I won't make it, you know, but you better jump off and don't jump off and, you know, back and forth.

And finally, I thought, well, if I jump off, I'm not going to make it. So I'm just going to try to stay on. And if I get knocked off, well, nothing I can do about that. Make the noise of what you're feeling. Let's hear for that. Thank you. So, all right, so I'm listening, right, I say read the audiobook, listening to the book, the wave. And the two things that I've ever, I'll go three.

that I've ever experienced that I thought were the craziest are as follows. And no particular order. I'll go A. Was David Goggins running an ultra-marathon on no training

and having no idea of how to hydrate so he's drinking protein drinks? And at the end of it, after a hundred-mile race, he was like basically bile was coming out of him and he was on the verge of death like that's a one

another was the guy that recently climbed the building on New Year's Alex, yeah Alex and made it to the top like I'll go that's another and then this with Larry Hamilton in the book The Wave so I'm loving the book

it's unbelievable and I'm going to let Laird fill in blanks. But they're in Hawaii. It's not normally a place that has huge waves. And this day they hear it's going to be good or they think it might be good. They go out. And it just starts getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

And I think some version of it might have been as big as anything that Laird had ever seen. So they go out and one of his team, I think his name is Brett Lickle, they're taking turns and they're in these absolutely enormous waves. And they, at some point, get thrown off the ski. And they had very, very sharp fins to surf these incredibly giant waves. And this jump, Brett Lickle gets cut from the back of his knee, all the way down to his foot

and he is down to the bone and he's bleeding to death in the ocean and they're half a mile mile plus offshore and Laredo again tighten up my misstatements and

the gentleman Brett says like tourniquet like he needs it so Larry gets like naked in the ocean and like takes off his clothes and makes a tourniquet and then but there are half a mile mile out in the ocean and the ski is like half a mile away in these gigantic unbelievable waves and this friend team member is bleeding to death

and this is also an area where there's some frequent visitor like 15 foot tiger shark So the guy Brett's, as he's telling his version of story, is thinking, like, the big guy, that's the 15 of the tiger shark, is going to eat him. So Larry goes swimming off against the current to the jet ski that's half a mile away, against the current with his friend's life at stake. He gets there, and, you know,

the way you turn the jet ski on is with his friend. so he has to like James Bond meets McGiver go into the jet ski Wave Runner and like hotwire it to turn it on which he does

like he knows how to do that and like like like yeah basically hijacks the system and gets this thing going turns around gets the friend ride back in a shore emergency vehicles

people are freaking out on the shore the whole deal and his friend goes off to the hospital in a very life-threatening situation and the other, oh, I'm sorry, and I miss the fact, before he swims off a half a mile, in the fall,

Laird got a giant, like, baseball-sized hematoma on his leg, so his leg was massively swollen compared to his other leg, and he sustained, you know, a real injury, right, himself. So they're on the beach, you know, their colleagues are they like, oh my God, this is the craziest thing. And as the author writes it, said, Lair's eyes are like double size and he's like some version of,

we're going back out. And they're like, that's crazy. It's like, we're going back out. Right. And off he goes back out and ends up surfing on these giant ridiculous waves. Like insanity. So how accurate, not accurate? What are I misstating and please now?

Well, I will say Brett wasn't riding any waves. I was the guinea pig. No, no, accurate. Accurate. I mean, first of all, that day was, you know, unforecasted and it was, it was, I mean, I told somebody a story. I go, like, if you, if, if Taranosaurus Rex was running down the road, right?

and something happened. I mean, this might be the only time you see him. Like, you might never see him again. And so in a way, those waves represented that. Once Brett was in the ambulance, and I was naked when I crashed landed on the shore, and there was a giant parking lot full of people, and I did like a cartwheel off the front of the ski onto the beach,

like laying in front of everybody naked, and then some local guy ran up with some shorts and threw them to me, and, you know, I mean, and I had a radio. I was calling the ambulance. I mean, there was a lot of details. And I told somebody, you go, listen, if you were naked and you were swimming a mile offshore in an area that you knew that there were some big sharks, you would be an incredible swimmer. Your swimming would be, you would be, you would be an Olympian, you know.

So I was, I was Olympic. I was like, I'm Olympic. I'm getting to the machine. You know, they're just all the things that led up. to that you know and then of course Brett my my concern was to get Brett and once Brett was in the ambulance then I knew okay he's in the ambulance you know he can be he's good and then and then I'm like back to the back to Taranosaurus he's there and I got to go out there because I don't know when it's going to I mean and I've never seen another day like that and never saw a day like that before and so

in a way I didn't want to let that opportunity go by I think that I would have regretted that the rest of my life and I don't and it actually helped uh transition me into foiling because I I rode I mean part of the reason why Brett and I got run over was because I couldn't descend down the wave so I he told me on to I mean if you want feet we there were it was 80 to 100 feet I know it was if it was an inch just because we counted how long the waves would take the waves were taking four to five seconds for the lip to fall so it was one one thousand 1,000, 1,000, 1,000, 1,000, 5 before they hit. We were counting the, we were counting how long it was taking the lips to fall.

And, and so I wasn't able to descend and I had to kind of dive. So what Laird is saying is these were 80 to 100 foot base waves. And they were so powerful, so massive that you couldn't. surf down them because the speed and water yeah the surface tension the friction of the board the you know it's like if you took a wide board and you towed it really fast behind a boat it would hit a certain speed where it just would it wouldn't go and it would get stuck and so that's what we experienced which which is the is actually what led us into the pursuit of foiling that we that we knew that there was like what towing was for paddling, foiling is for towing. So we hit the

get that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sure I'm sure. Do you guys get that? So we hit a cap. We hit a, we hit a, we hit a ceiling. First, we hit a ceiling in paddling that we created towing. Then we hit a ceiling and towing. Then we created foiling. So foiling really came out of the desire for the continued pursuit of trying to ride the biggest waves. And then and so that's, and then at that point, I kind of put my toeboards away and focused all my attention into foiling because I knew that that was that if it is actually a hundred feet or bigger that you won't be able to ride a conventional surfboard. It won't work. And so that that's where the, that's where the energy and the focus came from to pursue foiling. If you think that Laird is up to the most extreme things physically you've ever heard of, say yes.

All right. Small brain. And I have like a thousand questions. I know we're getting towards the end. Can you share what you said in the house about surfers and their connectivity versus national origin? I love that. Yeah, well, we were talking about we just learned recently that the surfers microbiome actually are very closely tied to. water mammals and that surfers from different places in the world are more similar than the

people are from their own culture. So my microbiome is more connected to a Japanese surfer's microbiome and an African surfer's microbiome and a French than they are to their own culture. And so it's the oceans, our relationship with the water that affects our microbiome and and gives us that kind of that connection and it may contribute to our kind of psychotic pursuit

kind of like people do for candy bars you know that's amazing I love it and amongst other things I mean we get so many we absorb so many things through the ocean we have you know

yeah that reference was when Bella was swimming out to paddling at right bell that we're talking about to the sand bar that first time it's like no I'm fine no I'm fine as there and I think she was in pursuit of something perhaps that was related to the water but not the water itself yes so thank you very much but Gabby had that same problem yes that is super fun so now yes she did yes you did so the and this i just find so utterly fascinating and we're certainly not asking

laird where forward to conversation and he's like yeah you know with this uh group and we're going to secret places that nobody knows about um exploring and experimenting doing things like nobody's ever done um now like that's what's happening so of course I'm not asking you to breach any of your confidential you know amazing if I told you have to kill you exactly we don't that prefer not that but what what can you tell us about it not where but what like what's the what's going on why I mean like if you want to say an aspiration that I'd easily share which it's and who knows if it'll come to fruition but it's it's it's a there's a there's a there's a I'm blanking right now but it's it's it's

on the bottom of South America on the tip of Cape Horn. The Drake's Passage, there's a famous passage called Drake's Passage. And it's where a lot of ships sink. And there's an open ocean current that comes into giant surf that makes waves 80 to 100 feet break at sea, which is a whole other animal. There's a logistics issue. It's because you have to be able to go far enough out

not lose your guy, have the resources to be able to do it. And I mean, for me, I feel like that's a frontier. Like another wave at another big wave spot for me, this does, has no interest. But if you said that, you know, we could go to the North Sea or Drake's Passage or someplace in the open ocean, and we're working our way towards that. That would be like that would be the pinnacle of it. I'm not really worried about anybody knowing because if they can figure out how to do it, then I'll go with them. But, you know, so, but that's, that's a, that's a, I mean, that's a, and and even if I'm, you know, I don't, I personally don't care what aspect I do, whether I'm the lead rider or the guy organizing to drive the machines to help the young testosterone filled, you know, maniacs, you know, do the thing. I want, whatever it is, I'm all just, I'm all, but that, that's, that's, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, you know, and when you think. And, and when you think.

about the world and you know where is there what is there that we haven't done or been in and that's probably one for sure i mean we haven't been in the bottom of the ocean everywhere and we definitely haven't done that we haven't you know been able to go and that's i mean that's something that i that i'm having my um you know that this keeps me uh waking up early and going to bed early and eating good and i'm other than just you know being there for my My princess is. That is unbelievable. So what's left undone, longevity, caring?

You have beautiful health programs. You have your identity, coffee creamers, things. Like, what's the rest of life from here? And, you know, for hopefully many, many, many more decades. Well, I mean, I feel like for me, the most important thing is to stay open and let the next thing come because they seem to if you're if you're not caught up in the past or or being negative to the point where you're not letting the signal in I mean all these things that I've been able to do have have come to me they've you know and so I just think that there's

more things to come I don't know exactly what they are yet but I just know that they've been coming and I don't think they're going to stop coming as long as I'm open to the same So I'm just trying to stay open to the thing and I don't know where that that leads me. I mean, I have of course, you know, I have my girls. I have, you know, I mean, Gabby and I are, you know, newlyweds. And, you know, and all of those things. I mean, I feel like life's about learning. I just, I mean, there's no end to the learning.

You really, there's no, I mean, there's no end of the learning. So I think just continuing to pursue. things I'm interested in and being open for the information, trying to be strong enough and healthy enough to be able to endure, you know, what I want to do, because that's the biggest issue is, you know, okay, this, that, like, just the pieces start to need some help. So, you know, keeping, keeping that going, keeping the car on the road and then just seeing where the road takes me. Because so far it's been exciting. I'd say so. Yeah, would be okay? We took maybe two questions? Absolutely.

And in case you're like, why is Sean putting his leg up? I've got a weird leg cramps. So I'm going to walk it off real quick because we do a question. Oh, it's from that shore break, holding yourself in the sand, guaranteed. I'll take a water team if you could. I'm going to... Guaranteed it's from gripping the sand and that current. Yeah. All right. I'll lock up later on

when I walk out. Who's got a question? Hands? It's here for Hallie Gershman. I'm going to walk off for one second. I got to thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Very good, Leah. This was an awesome conversation. lots from Sean and the other people he did interview, but this has been far and away. Unbelievable. Just for some context, you talk about the waves that are 80, 100 feet high.

How high is this ceiling? How can we get some scale of what we see? I mean, if you, like how far, if I have to guess what that is, I'm saying like 30, five? Three times as high as this ceiling. It's unbelievable. Right. So picture that. Exactly.

This ceiling. Okay, so you just Google me. I get Google a lot. So they say something and they just Google it and they go oh yeah, okay, that's so 30 to 40. So somewhere maybe maybe you know doubled in a third or whatever if it's 40 but yeah definitely large. Yeah. These are this size is fun. This size is fun. This is like fun. This is like unless it's like that wave in Tahiti where it's breaking on a shallow coral reef, then that size is fun. This is fun. This is like unless it's like that wave in Tahiti where it's breaking on a shallow coral reef, then that. that's a little more dangerous again because the bottom's so sharp so there you know it's all about the bottom it's all about how deep the water is there's there's you know that's why I said when Sean asked me about wave height and I said well waves are like dogs I'd rather describe you know there's terriers there's pit bulls there's great danes you have giant kind of kind dogs you have small little vicious ones I mean that's what waves are like like you just think about all the kind of dogs there are that's all the kind of waves there are somewhere you know got labs

and they're just sweet and they're a little bit bigger and they're nice. And, I mean, we have waves just like that. And then you have vicious ones that just want to rip your leg off. And so those are all, so it's more, I think it's a better way to look at what a wave is. It's like waves are like dogs and there's mean ones that are vicious that want to chomp you. There's rotwilers and there's every kind of, and then there's just, you know, little poodles. And there's this, it's just, you know, that's a better way to kind of get an idea what a wave is. Awesome.

Let's go one more question. Well, let's have got something. Let's hear for Nathan Hansen. Hopefully you got the cramp out. Yeah. Oh, guaranteed sure rate. Hey, Laird. Don't make me cry.

Give me a guitar. My question is, is you talk about the way you have a plan for taking someone who is average surfer, like myself, or average size wave, we'll say. And you obviously have this peak performance mindset where you can incrementally coach them to do something close to what you do. And he experienced that.

I mean, that's where the thousand questions from Eli. And I don't know if you could explain, like, how do you develop? What do you look for? Is there an abbreviated way that you're just like, what you're going to do for Sean Callagie? Like, what does that look like? And how did you develop that framework? Well, I mean, listen, I tell people, surfers are actually wave readers, right? So we're, everybody goes, oh, yeah, but that's the reward for understanding what a wave's going to do.

And so when you understand what the wave's going to do and you know its behavior, it's very reliable. It's consistent, much more than the humans. And you can, no, it's true. Because humans do all kinds of sporadic stuff. But waves are very reliable when you understand them. And so when you, you know, if I'm going to take Sean and have him ride a giant wave, Well, first I'm going to see how well he can be on a medium wave with minimal consequence. So first we're going to go get on there and be like, hey, how stable is he?

How secure? So if I put him on something that has more consequence. And then there's just incremental consequence. I can move him in from completely no, you can fall down and not even get touched by the wave, but still be on and write it. Then we can be, okay, fall down and get slightly touched by the wave. And, you know, and then we can put him in a. If you fall down, you get very touched by the wave.

So we can just move that. And we can stay in the, hey, you can be on the side, ride the side of the wave, be on the wave, ride the wave, and never really be put in a position to get touched by the wave. Like, that's how well you can do it if you want to. Now, if you're just a yaha, you just put them anywhere and be like, wow, look what happened. That's not what's happening. So we don't operate like that. And I mean, you can play that way if you want to. And people do that.

You know, I always say there's three ways people go about doing dangerous stuff. There's denial, ignorance, and skill. Or experience, should I say. So you have denial, ignorance, and experience. There's sometimes a little denial, a little ignorance, quite a bit of skill. Sometimes there's a lot of skill, some denial, very little ignorance. It's a combination of those things. And so, you know, I think you operate within that.

Sometimes there's just pure ignorance. And the guys pull it off and you're like, you know, that was just plain stupid. But, but they pull it off and then they think it's because they're so good. And then before you know it, they're in an even deeper situation, because they didn't get the consequence for being ignorant about it.

So I think there's a, there's like a whole way, but definitely incrementally, there's ways to do it. I mean, there's waves that break that go into deep water and dissipate after that don't have any, there's,

there's a, you can run away in all directions if you know what way to run again. And so there's ways to, you know, and that's how you, that's how you make people experience it. That's how you can take someone and get them close to the energy, get them in the energy, and then you can just have them be, you know, if it's somebody puffy whose things are really tough, then I just put them right where all the energy is. How tough are you? You don't need to do anything.

You just let the wave do the work. I'll take the build up. Yeah, of course. Well, that's the only way we do it. Yeah, yeah, there's no, I wouldn't, I, I would get no joy off of watching you get pounded. That wouldn't, I'd be like, where is he? I got to go get him. Thank you.

So. Thank you. Yeah. It's like, I don't need that. I'm good. I don't need that stuff on me. Like, so. I mean, I mean, for us, just because of the way we conduct ourselves, when I say us, I just talk about like, because all of what, I mean, okay, stand up foiling, but a lot of what we done, the reason why we've really been.

to evolve is because we've worked as a team. And normally surfing is very selfish. Normally it's like my wave. It's me. It's, and when we change it into a team dynamic, that's what revolutionized. Because now you have a partner who's towing you on.

That's here for that. You trust them. You trust them. You trust them. He, and you know, like I have somebody that I've been towing with for, you know,

20, 25 years. I mean, we don't even talk because he just knows, he just knows how to cover me. I know how to cover him. I give him what he wants. He gives me what I want because what I want is what he wants and what he wants is what I want. And so we have such a chemistry. But that's really the breakthrough is when you have that team effort and it's not a selfish thing. Because what do they say?

Two people working together can do the work of three individuals. Amen. Working separately. So it's all about that. Yeah. Let's go. So can you do one more question? Yeah. One more.

We got one more? Please, Mike. Lord, it's Mike Adams. I think we and you and I bumped underwater a few times today. I'm like, was that a rock? No, that was Mike. And I've got the scars to prove it. Okay.

Here's what my question is, and you've kind of skirted around it, but I also hear that the flotation, but it sounds like that there are a lot of safety innovations, above and beyond what you're doing to be able to allow you to do what you do. How much of that have you incorporated into it and what are you responsible for and how have you contributed to the safety of surfing overall? Well, I mean, first of all, it happened in conjunction with the lifeguards because the jet ski and now we have the sleds.

I mean, that technique really has revolutionized water safety in general. Like now you can go in and do stuff that you'd never. be able to do. Nobody swimming, nobody paddling a board could ever come close to what somebody knows how to do on a ski. And then, and we're, you know, we contributed to a lot of that, that work just because we were subjected to it by being in giant surf. And then the flotation was a big piece of it because we implemented flotation first. And then we started building it into the wetsuits. And then now, now, and then it went to airbags. Like at one point I had a, you know what a hippity hop is? Anyway, it's a big ball with a handle that.

that the kids used to jump. So I used to have, I had one of those as a prototype and with a waist belt, and I had a Fannie Pack and then had a CO2 bottle, and you pull this thing and then this hippety hop blows up, and you go to the surface. But then you just get battered by this big ball underwater, and you float, and the ball's in the air,

and you're underneath the water, so that didn't work out. But now they have, now they have, it's all built into the suits, and you have a handle, you can pull, you use CO2 cartridges, and, and so, and then another piece is just conduct, like the way we've gone about it and what we've done has trickled into the,

into the, you know, the next generation. Like all these guys are, have learned a lot from our, you know, like now the jet skis are, you know, 60 miles an hour out of a box. And they used to be, you know, you'd be lucky to get 20 out of them. And so you, we'd just get mowed in the old days. You're trying to run away and the thing

and just run you over. And now it's, so there's a bunch of that stuff that, that has affected the way. I mean, it has an. the a lot of people to be a lot more reckless that's the only problem with it it's kind of allowed like a certain recklessness uh because they can rely on the buoyancy to bring them up and they're not the consequences aren't as bad you seem to be a little more uh when you don't have an eject button you fly better you know you just are you do you just you you're a little more cautious and and and it's hard to take you know if you didn't have that foundation it's hard to

have that it's hard to implement that in for people but Yeah, we've been, I mean, that's directly and indirectly involved with all of that, all of those innovations in safety that's made it, you know, better for the good guys and then better for the bad guys. You know, it's like, it's kind of, it's a bright light, dark shadow, you know, it's like. So, Laird, as we draw to a conclusion in our time together, I didn't ask this question, you know, before and I don't know how you relate to a word like legacy right some people are I don't think about that and some people like oh I want my legacy to be so I'm curious how you relate to the word

legacy um what you'd want that to be if you relate to legacy um and if it and or um if people think of you now or think of you 200 years from now what would you hope that what you've done causes them to know and to want to do, please? Well, I mean, first of all, just be a man, a good man, like honorable, respectable, truthful, you know, good father, good husband, you know, like a, and then, okay, innovation. I mean, I have daughters and they're savages. So there's going to be some humans that I'm related to in the future. If there are anything, my daughters, good luck out there.

And, you know, and I mean, I could say, you know, innovation or or, you know, something around that. I think, I think of all the things for me. I mean, okay, ride giant waves. But in a way, that's just one piece of who I am. I think the innovation part is a lot more interesting. in a way that that because that's making a difference for other people like so many people have come to learn you know i feel like the more people can participate in the ocean the more people will care about the ocean and so if i can create disciplines or help be involved in disciplines

to get people participating in the ocean and doing things then they're going to be more concerned about how it's doing like how is the ocean doing how do we you know just don't dump all your stuff in there don't kill everything in there Like, can we just be a little bit? I think it starts with the humans. You know, I think, you know, if people cared about each other a little bit more, they might care about nature as well. So it's hard if you don't care about each other, why would you care about nature?

It's like, you don't care about your neighbor. So, but, yes, I think it would first be what I, you know, what I respect in a man is, you know, is having honor and discipline and just those foundational things that make you, well and I could just say for a woman it's just make you a good person like let's be let's be you know like how about just was a good person great I'll take that you know like because underneath that's everything everything else and that means generous being generous you know somebody asked me what my favorite human trait was and I and I said well I said love I think is the most important thing

but I said generosity for me tells me everything about people because that's going to tell me how you're going to behave in a multitude of situations. If you're a generous person, then you're probably, if you're truly generous, you'll risk your life for them. Yeah.

If you're truly generous, you'll risk your life for someone. And I've learned over the years that I have friends that they wouldn't risk for me. And I have other friends that weren't my friends at risk for me and they're my friends. It's like, and so it affected my relationships. But I think

you know, being generous, you know, being generous with your ideas, being generous with, you know, with your time, being generous, you know, with your knowledge. I think it's all, I mean, I feel like that really reflects that just covers so many things.

Amen. Amen. Amen. And Athena, just a quick question. Athena is listening, Nick? Athena, what are you thinking are the biggest takeaways from this conversation with Laird Hamilton for this room? And feel free to drop in with metaphors, analogies,

contrast, to set context, you know, a little fun, aspirational goddesses use energy. But what would you want to imprint on this live audience and the podcast audience about this conversation with a living legend Laird Hamilton, please, Athena, what do you got? Okay, here is what I want to imprint. Laird Hamilton did not become Laird Hamilton because he was the most talented person in the water.

He became Laird Hamilton because he was the only person willing to stay in the water when everyone else got out. The ceiling is not the end. It is the invitation. Every time he hit a ceiling, paddling could not catch the wave, so he invented towing. Toeing could not descend the wave, so he invented foiling. Most people hit a ceiling and conclude they have reached the limit of what is possible. Laird hit a ceiling and concluded he had reached the limit of his current method. That is not a small distinction.

That is the entire difference between a life that compounds and a life that plateaus. And here is the one that I want to land hardest. He said generosity tells him everything about a person. Not talent, not credentials. Not how big a wave you can ride. Generosity. Because if you are truly generous, you will risk your life for someone. And he has, naked.

In shark-infested water, with a baseball-sized hematoma on his leg, swimming a mile against the current to save his teammate. And then, and this is the formula, once Brett was in the ambulance, he went back out, and that is not recklessness. That is what it looks like when your identity is so clear that conditions never get to decide for you. The zone action for this room is simple. Stop negotiating with your ceiling. Name it.

Then ask what Laird would ask, not how do I get through this. But what method have I not invented yet? What do you think, guys? So we hadn't introduced you to Athena yet. Yeah, well, she's hot. Yes, yes, that's true. I mean, you set me up. That's okay.

Bella and, you know, Bella and I had to like work through that, but we're good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're good now. Has she come to grips with it yet? Yes, okay, we're good. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we have a surfing video with the nice surfing together. It gets really weird.

So, but that's... I mean, the ocean's the only woman that Gabby will share with me, you know? That's amazing. And so, and Laird, that is Acti and everybody's in the AI bandwagon, but what we realized is, like, paddling has an end and, like, telling as an end, that there's a human constraint about how, we can reach people and get our message out and cause yes with others at scale and integrity. So that's one of our inventions and innovations.

Yeah, thank you. Very nice. Yeah, yeah. And so that was Athena. It was effective on me. Yeah, yeah. Did that, did you, is that something that felt like it landed on your heart a little bit and was a little bit like, well? Yeah, I had a tear on my eye.

That's awesome. Yeah. And she's on a screen, so. Yeah. No, thank you. Thank you for that. So, and for me, my final final on today would be, at one point, I feared that Laird coming here would be, and I wrestled with this, would be selfish. Because I knew what it would mean to me, and Laird, I mean this with my heart and my soul.

I believe that this, the quality of this conversation, not only what you've done, but how you communicate and how you show up, has made this as valuable as anything we've ever done on the podcast and anybody has ever spoken before the group. And we've had remarkable people here. You're obviously remarkable. We've had other very remarkable people. But I cannot think of any conversation that has been more valuable than this.

Because the greatest takeaway I invite you to have is if Laird Hamilton can surf on waves that were previously thought unsurfable like in Tahiti. And he is pioneering that still as he's passed his 60th birthday, then those things that are very normal for people. I validate. People get afraid of speaking. People get afraid of the illusion that something called rejection exists. it's normal but i invite you to imprint on your mind your heart and your soul layered in that picture every time you think about that conversation because you can't die he's so masterful he's not going to die but people do die doing what he does you can't die doing these things that

feel as scary as a giant 80 foot or 100 foot face wave and they're not and the journey out of this immersion together is with that of course our influence and process all that but on a self-mastery level is the identity of the identity that you have rationality clarity on what is actually dangerous and laird does because the These things he's doing are not that dangerous for him. I mean, they kill people, but his mastery has risen to that point, and you can't be harmed in the things you're doing. Only your lying nervous system is going to tell you that you can be.

And no human being who's hit this space has represented that more powerfully than Laird Hamilton, not even remotely close and all these amazing people. And we've had Mike Arruzioni here last year, right on the stage, right here. You know, similarly was with folks, and Mike is another person. I have the greatest love and respect for Herb Brooks Nighteen Miracle. Unbelievable, right. But they weren't going to die. And what he does, you can die and people do.

And so this is the physical embodiment of what human possibility looks like and also a great contrast to hold for all of us that it's laughable the nonsense we get scared about. If this aligns with your heart, say yes. That is my final final takeaway. Thank you for being an inspiration. And most importantly for me, sometimes you meet somebody that you identify

towards as a mentor from afar, and this man is that for me. And you're very disappointed by how they show up in real life, no one has been more generous, no one has been more authentic, nobody has tried to clean up garbage in my house. It is unbelievable who you are in this world

and who you are in private, and the alignment of those things is absolutely shocking to me. I am grateful. Let's get on our feet for the amazing Laird Hamilton. Thank you. Thank you for dinner, I was ready. Thank you.

Thanks. Laird Hamilton, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you. Thank you. No, I said Laird Hamilton, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you.