Unchained - Are Layer 2s Failing Ethereum? A New Proposal Advocates for Native L2s - Ep. 736

Episode Date: November 19, 2024

Martin Köppelmann, co-founder of Gnosis, has proposed that Ethereum should have native rollups—a vision aimed at addressing scalability and decentralization. Köppelmann critiques the current state of layer 2 solutions, highlighting their limitations in fully inheriting Ethereum’s security and composability.  He proposes a bold alternative: 128 Ethereum-native rollups designed to expand block space, strengthen alignment with Ethereum’s core principles, and ensure long-term viability for developers and users. Plus, Martin tackles the controversies: Are L2s parasitic? Could native rollups spell the end for existing solutions? And why should they rely on zero-knowledge proofs instead of Optimism? Show highlights: Whether the Ethereum scaling roadmap is accomplishing its goals Why based rollups are not a full solution, according to Martin What Martin proposes instead Why Martin is proposing these rollups to be ZK-rollups instead of optimistic Whether the proposed solution would focus on privacy What it is about chain abstraction that Martin doesn’t like How he envisions that these native rollups will solve many composability issues across L2s Whether the community has embraced this proposal and how likely it is to be implemented What would happen to current L2s if native rollups get implemented Why despite being against the current state of L2s, Martin says that they are not parasitic to Ethereum Visit our website for breaking news, analysis, op-eds, articles to learn about crypto, and much more: unchainedcrypto.com Thank you to our sponsors! Polkadot Robinhood & Arbitrum iYield Guest: Martin Köppelmann, Co-founder and CEO of Gnosis Links Previous coverage of Unchained on Ethereum layer 2s: ETH Is Down Bad, While Layer 2s Are Ripping. Are L2s Parasitic to Ethereum? Are L2s ‘Parasitic’? Analysis Shows Ethereum Only Gets a Tiny Percentage of Fees Are Solana’s ‘Network Extensions’ Just Like Ethereum’s Layer 2s But by a Different Name? Ethereum Has Had a Banner Year in Most Areas. Except Price. Should Ethereum Layer 2s Urgently Decentralize Their Sequencers? Blockworks: Gnosis founder argues Ethereum needs native L2s Martin’s tweet on USDC yields Timestamps:  00:00 Intro 01:47 Is Ethereum’s scaling roadmap meeting its goals? 04:07 Why Martin believes based rollups aren’t the full solution 08:11 Martin’s bold proposal for native rollups 12:07 Why ZK-rollups over optimistic rollups 15:56 Whether these rollups should also preserve privacy 17:11 Martin’s issue with chain abstraction 22:35 How native rollups could solve L2 composability problems 26:49 Has the community embraced Martin’s vision? 30:52 What happens to existing L2s if native rollups win 36:06 Whether Martin thinks L2s are parasitic to Ethereum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Native roll-ups means that Ethereum just deploys a bunch of roll-ups themselves. They would have the full trust and the full brand essentially of Ethereum behind them, and they would be developed in a way that's highly interoperable with L1. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unchained. You're a no-hype resource for all things crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin, author of The Cryptopians. I started covering crypto nine years ago and as a senior editor of Forbes was the first mainstream reader

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with automatic DeFi yield tracking. Unlike portfolio, trackers, IYield provides a complete financial view of assets, debts, income, and expenses in crypto and fiat. Ditch the spreadsheets and take control at iYield.com. Today's guest is Martin Cappelman, co-founder and CEO of NOSIS. Welcome, Martin. Yeah, thanks for having me. Hello. You gave a talk at DevCon about how you believe that Ethereum should deploy 128 native zero-knowledge layer twos. And this, you know, created quite a

But before we get into your proposal, why don't we start with what problems you were trying to solve? Yeah. So, I mean, I think the current Ethereum scaling roadmap is only accomplishing parts of its goals. So, whereas the history was there was initially the idea to have sharding. So kind of say, okay, we have we have Ethereum, but then we have basically just have many versions of it and they communicate nicely together. that never, well, couldn't really figure out how to build that. So the approach now since a couple of years is a so-called roll-up-centric approach, where you have Ethereum, but then you have roll-ups, so roll-ups or layer twos, built on top. And that has been a success in the sense that there are now many roll-ups and they are being used.

But I would argue they are only loosely connected to Ethereum. So essentially they are just separate chains that have some connection to Ethereum. And what I'm proposing is something that is much stronger connected to Ethereum and where for a developer, it feels much more like one chain. And an obvious example is liquidity fragmentation. So if you today start a new roll-up, then, for example, all the tokens, they don't have liquidity. So you cannot trade them there. So you have to build up your own liquidity. You have to have kind of copies of, well, I mean, first you need to deploy uniswop contracts or other dexes.

Then you probably also want money markets or something like Aver. And kind of in a way you have to replicate everything that Ethereum has and then build up your own liquidity. And in an alternative approach, you could ideally just tap into or kind of natively communicate with Ethereum but still have scaling benefits. And that's what this proposal tries to address. All right. So tell us what your solution is. Yeah. So roll-ups today, again, are somewhat separate chains that have. have some form of how you can communicate with Ethereum and most importantly bridge assets there. But other than that, they operate fairly independent.

So yes, there are some mechanisms that the roll-up eventually finalizes or it stayed on Ethereum. And there are ways that you can force, include a transaction from Ethereum to the roll-up. But in general, they can progress differently. So there's a roll-up, but they usually have very fast block times, and then there's Ethereum, and the two are just independent chains. In that world, and that's kind of the first thing. It's called, or that is already a concept that's out there. It's called based roll-ups.

So in that world, the roll-up progresses in sync with Ethereum. So the roll-up always only does a new block when Ethereum also does a new block. And actually Ethereum, in a way, builds a block for the roll-up itself. So Ethereum has layer one transactions, but then they have the so-called blob data that includes the transactions of the roll-ups. But in the kind of traditional roll-ups, they usually kind of just build the transactions and then sometimes later they put those transactions, minutes later, 10 minutes later, all in those blobs.

In those based roll-ups, the transactions that are in the Ethereum block are essentially immediately executed. So there's no time delay. But on the other hand, also means you cannot go faster than Ethereum. So that's kind of the first, yeah, the first important piece of that, of that, construction that I'm proposing. And there are some attempts of this already. There are based one or two based roll-ups.

Then I'm essentially saying we need or Ethereum should go one step further. And that is really the question of who is developing it. And to what extent can you trust that or can you trust them? So the idea here is, okay, we could have. based roll-ups and again the idea or the ideal world would be that then it almost it almost wouldn't matter if you have the asset on the l-1 or the l-2 they can super quickly move and they are essentially equal in reality if such a roll-up is developed by some unknown or random team then it for a developer, it's still a significant decision to say, can they trust that code?

Can they trust that team? Because, yeah, kind of building those roll-ups is a complex, well, it's a complex thing. And so you essentially have another form of fragmentation, and that is kind of this risk fragmentation that you have now, let's say, four or five different roll-ups. They might all be theoretically similar, but practically, let's say, they are just developed by different teams, different standards of how many security audits have been done. So those are important things, and that can still mean that an asset on one chain is essentially different than an asset on another chain, because with one, there's simply a higher risk of, yeah, that there is some form of problem or some form of buck. So what I'm proposing in a way on top of this idea of based roll-ups is very simple to say Ethereum as a community and as developers as open source developers that currently create Ethereum clients,

that there should be a set of roll-ups that's actually developed and deployed and maintained by that very same developer process and developer community. And that would, yeah, dramatically, yeah, essentially improve the trust or the, I mean, it's not only the trust. It's basically saying if Ethereum would do it, then it would be done properly. So Ethereum would not deploy an L2 with some form of multisic, how it's basically currently all L2s are, have some form of upgrade mechanism. and that's also kind of needed because Ethereum itself is not as, or itself is changing and will be changing. And therefore, it might be necessary that you need to upgrade a roll-up on top of Ethereum. Someone needs to have the right to upgrade that.

And as long as, in the way Ethereum updates on itself, or Ethereum updates itself, is through those kind of hard forks that are done roughly. once a year now. And here, that would be another advantage of those native roll-ups, or what I call native roll-ups developed by Ethereum itself, that upgrade process could also be done in the same way as Ethereum update is upgraded. So the core messages here is those roll-ups wouldn't have any smaller owner set, like a multi-sick that has the right to upgrade them, but instead they would upgrade by a regular Ethereum process.

Yeah, it's interesting because people always say that the layer twos are secured by Ethereum, but basically what you're proposing, these particular layer twos would, they would have much greater security just by virtue of going through the same process to even be deployed. One other piece of this is, you know, you're proposing that there be 1208, native layer 2s, why that particular number as opposed to, for instance, a smaller number? I mean, the goal is simply to say, to make Ethereum block space that is in high demand and, of course, with the consequence that transaction costs are really high, to create as much as possible of that block space.

The number 128 comes from the limitation. that Ethereum still would have even in that design. So in general, the goal would be to get that number as high as possible. So in early sharding, in early sharding proposals a couple of years ago, there was even talk about 1,024 equivalent kind of Ethereum L1s. So I would like to go even to that number. But the bottleneck that is still there is data availability or, blobs. And the 128 is, yeah, would already only make sense with an increase of blob space. So as long as

we have very limited number of blobs currently, essentially just three per block, even the 128 couldn't really be supported. But increase of blob space is already in discussion. And with that increase, the 128 would be feasible, that number. And why are you proposing that these be, ZK roll-ups or zero-knowledge roll-ups as opposed to optimistic roll-ups? Right. So the big advantage of ZK is that you can much faster prove the correctness of that roll-up. So in an optimistic roll-up, essentially you say, okay, here's my state. And then you need to give everyone time to challenge that state.

And there is a big debate of how long there is a debate of how long. that time should or needs to be. In the optimistic roll-ups we see today, let's say optimism, arbitrum base, they even use the time window of seven days. You could certainly reduce that time, but you need a sufficient, or you need somewhat large time, I mean, at the very least an hour, probably even a day or something like that, to give everyone time to challenge that.

And that essentially means that if you want to do a transaction from the roll-up back to Ethereum, you basically need to do the transaction. Then you have this state. And then you need to give that time for everyone to challenge that state. And only after that time has passed, the transaction can hit Ethereum L1. In a ZK, in a Rolab where you prove correctness, the time it takes you to go back from the L1, sorry, from the L2 to the L1, is just the time that it takes you to generate that proof.

And here we are already in a range of minutes. So it's possible to say you do this transaction, you create this block, and minutes later you have this proof, and then immediately that allows you to execute the transaction on the L1. we are even on a pass to be able to reduce that proof time to seconds. There is technology to create specific hardware that is just optimized to A6, kind of like you have A6 for Bitcoin mining. You can have A6 specifically for those proof generation.

And if we get to that point, it would even be possible to generate the proof within a block, within the currently 12-second block time. And that would be really the ideal case because in that world, you could send a message or do a transaction from the L2 or on the L2 immediately proves the correctness of this L2 state transition and then essentially in the same block, one block later execute that transaction on the L1.

And that really kind of goes back to what my starting point was. The starting point was to say, okay, instead of having different L2s that are essentially just, yeah, kind of loosely connected to Ethereum, but essentially are their own independent chains, it would, it would, yeah, for developers and for Ethereum, be much better to have essentially one chain where, yeah, where assets and, and, yeah, tokens and users can move extremely fast around and you can to much larger degree even, yeah, abstract away the idea of whether you are on this, on this, kind of in those 128 roll-ups. Yeah, the goal would be that, that, yeah, you could completely abstracted away that you are on a particular two of those many. Okay. And would any of those roll-ups be privacy preserving or no? Yeah, so no.

So I think this is, so the idea here is to really just say, well, we have Ethereum L1 block space and it's in high demand and we just want to create more of it. So it would really just have the same features of Ethereum. And I think that it also connects to one of the questions I got for the talk. What about all the other roll-ups that are currently being developed? And here my answer would be, yeah, it would probably mean that those roll-ups would need to do some things on top of just providing regular EVM block space. And here, one possible direction could absolutely be privacy preserving. So, for example, there's at stake and there are a bunch of other roll-ups that go in this direction. and that would still be, yeah, kind of valuable work that could or should be done beyond this proposal.

Okay. And then one other thing is, and you may have just briefly touched on this, but generally when people talk about chain abstraction, you know, that's like designing the product in a way where the user doesn't know what chain they're using. And people typically say that that creates a better user experience, but you don't seem to think that that's a good idea. So can you explain a little bit more about why that is? Yeah, I mean, so the issue was the current in the current roll-up landscape is that because, yeah, roll-ups are, have widely different security standards. So kind of on L2 beat, I think you find over 100 different roll-ups listed.

And the term roll-up really kind of means almost nothing. So the security, some have, I mean, some are just literally controlled by a single key. And others, of course, take security very serious, have various processes, have audits and so on. But if you basically now say we should abstract it away from the user, whether they are on this quite secure, extremely secure chain or on a chain that's very insecure, then, yeah, then kind of chain abstraction turns into wrist abstraction, and that's certainly not a good thing. And of course, it leads to the situation where then if a user is eventually affected by those risks because one roll-up kind of blows up in some form, of course, then you can no longer abstract

that away and then you have to tell the user, well, sorry, you were just on a chain that was very and secure. So, yeah, long story short, chain abstraction is, of course, is, is, is, is, I mean, it would be ideal that that the user doesn't have to care about that, but as long as, but as long as there is no standard for security, yeah, I think it's, it's, it's dangerous to then abstract those risks away. And I think, again, the only way to really have or to really allow, So, yeah, this chain abstraction is to say, okay, we have this set of roll-ups, those, let's say, 128 that we know follow the same rigorous process that Ethereum is following, because it is developed by the same, yeah, community, by the same process. And yes, then you could actually abstract it away. All right.

So in a moment, we're going to talk about the follow-on effects if this is adopted. but first a quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible. Pocodot is the original and largest layer zero blockchain with over 2,000 plus developers, and the anticipated Pocodot 2.0 upgrade will be a massive accelerator for the ecosystem, upgrading the infrastructure with eight times higher transaction throughput and twice as fast block times, perfectly tailored core time for the needs of every protocol, trustless bridges internally and into Ethereum, Cosmos, near, Binance smart chain, and revised tokenomics and the implementation of a token burn to reduce inflation.

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Ditch the spreadsheets and take control of your financial future. Get started today at iYield.com. Back to my conversation with Martin. So one of the benefits of your proposal is that it would likely have better composability. Can you explain how composability would be improved in the system you're proposing? Yeah, so it would allow developers to create,

applications where a user can do a transaction is affecting both state on the L1 and the L2. And so, yeah, just to give an example, it would allow you to do a trade that, or it would, for example, allow you to bridge assets to the L2 and in the very same trade already use those assets to then do a trade on the L2. And that's, yeah, quite different from today's world. And where you have to bridge, then usually it takes at least a couple of minutes, sometimes much longer, then you have to, yeah, kind of continue the process. But it would go even further. So on the L2, the idea is that there, the state of the state of the L1 of Ethereum is available.

So, for example, if you want to deploy some protocol on the L2 that needs to read Oracle prices, then you wouldn't need to separately kind of somehow get those in that L2. You could synchronously or you could just read from the contracts that are, yeah, on the L2. You could natively just read into the L1 space. another or kind of a very practical consequence of all of that is just just an easy way to understand that currently

this high level of composability is not given is to just look at a protocol like Ava where you have currently separate instances of Aver on Ethereum but also all the big roll-ups and you will find that the very same assets

let's say UCC have quite different interest rates. So on whatever, on Ethereum is currently 7%, on base it's 12%, on arbitrator, it's 9%. And that shouldn't really happen if it was kind of one ecosystem. If it was one ecosystem, then all those rates would immediately kind of even, or you basically would have one rate and that one rate would have the deepest liquidity. So kind of just the fact that those different rates exist show already that there's all kind of friction to move assets across those chains. Okay, yeah, I saw in that discussion that because you had tweeted about that, that you were saying that there could be one unified liquidity pool on the L1 that any L2 could tap into.

So basically it would sort of be like uniswap that was deployed on the L1 could be accessed by any of these L2. to use that you're proposing? Right. So with something like Uniswop, I think it's even, where it's maybe a bit harder, but even there, you could say the main liquidity is on the L1. The L2 might have thin kind of buffer liquidity, I would say, where if it's a really small trade, then it doesn't need to touch L1 at all. It can basically just, it can just take the price from the L1 and kind of and use some form of buffers to execute this trade immediately on the L2. But if the trade is large enough that it kind of needs the L1 liquidity, then it would need to, or then you could say all the trades that are all the, yeah, all the buys and the cells

that kind of match each other, that you can kind of directly settle on the on the L2. But the remainder, if there's more buying or more selling, then the. remainder, you would settle in one transaction, yeah, into the L1. So on the, yeah. Okay. Yeah, it definitely would be a big benefit, I think, to a lot of users. So you also said that your proposal could be implemented without a single change to Ethereum. And if that's the case, then it sort of seems that community just would need to get behind

this. So I was wondering what the reaction has been to your proposal. Yeah, so maybe just to first comment on the that it's possible without change. So yes, it is possible without change to create base roll-ups. And of course, it is possible for the Ethereum developer community to deploy those. Of course, of course, if Ethereum would develop them itself, then there are, of course, there are changes to the, to Ethereum itself that could be done that would make this proposal, yeah, even much stronger.

So there are, yeah, just one idea or one concept is that the idea would be that on those L2s, you would make sure that they have distinct addresses. So currently, currently you can have the same address on different L2s, and that can create some form of problems and confusion. So, well, there is already a proposal to have changed specific addresses. And if we are going this route, then of course, it would be nice if it's actually possible to use your L2 address to make call into L1. and there are some details that where small improvements or small changes to Ethereum could make this proposal even stronger. Now, to your question on the reception, yeah, I think it's mixed.

So I think it's certainly a, it was certainly a proposal. It's certainly not the mainstream Ethereum roadmap yet. So currently, yeah, the idea is still, okay, we will just. have all those external layer twos and maybe even some some will decide to be based. So kind of to use Ethereum as a sequencer instead of having their own sequencer. And yes, I'm now going a step beyond and say, and I'm saying that's not enough that will not solve this fragmentation that in my view Ethereum is suffering from. Yeah, I got a bunch of people saying that's exactly right. That's exactly what we need.

But overall, I remain somewhat, or currently doesn't look like that this proposal will get kind of enough support for it to be implemented. But I will certainly, at least for a while, try to push it. And what is the opposition? hardly have seen really arguments against it other than, yeah, it might, existing L2s might not be happy about it or, yeah, I have not really seen argument against it, but kind of just not enough support. So, I mean, I mean, just in general for Ethereum, there are, but there are hundreds of open proposals of how to improve or how to, yeah, how to change Ethereum. And quite often, the default thing is not necessarily that a proposal faces specific opposition that someone

says that's for those and that reason bad, kind of the default reason why a proposal gets not implemented simply because it doesn't get enough kind of support or attention. So I think that's really the key question. Can you get enough momentum behind it? And then there's a chance that it will be implemented. Otherwise, yeah, it will end up in the long list of not implemented ideas. Well, you know, as you mentioned, there are like the only opposition that you've seen is from existing L2s, or I don't know if it's from them, but it's about the fact that these other ones exist.

And that's the only kind of natural constituency that I can think of that would be against this proposal. So let's say that it were to be implemented. what effect do you think it would have on these existing L2s? Yeah, I mean, I think as said previously, they would certainly need to do some form of innovation beyond offering regular Ethereum EVM block space because if you just do that, then people will probably kind of just say,

okay, well, here's Ethereum block space. is directly coming from Ethereum, super nicely connected to Ethereum layer one. Sure, I will go there. Why should I, why should I, in a way, use a smaller ecosystem or kind of have some form of additional platform risk, unless I get a specific upside beyond just having, yeah, EVM block space. Okay. All right.

Well, I guess we'll just have to see how it happens. Do you have any plans for trying to drum up more support, or was it just the presentation? Yeah, I think I will see. I mean, there is certainly, I think there is a larger, yeah, kind of debate in Ethereum, whether or not Ethereum is on the right track. Certainly people have noticed that Ether has. is kind of somewhat underperformed, at least in relationship to other, well, let's say to Bitcoin and a few other blockchains.

I think from my perspective, a big challenge for Ethereum is that it's not obvious, or in my view, it's not clear what Ethereum wants to be. And there is one side that tries to a little bit go the Bitcoin route and essentially say Ether is money. And if that's your idea of why Ethereum should be valuable because it's used as money and kind of programable money, all those ideas, then it almost doesn't matter that much, how much capacity the blockchain offers. and what kind of, let's say, the total transaction fees are, because then you can always say, okay, well, Bitcoin has even way less capacity and they are super successful with kind of just being money in a way

or just claiming to be store of value and something like that. So if that's your goal, then there's really not, that's maybe not really that interesting often proposal. But kind of I'm more in the camp of, saying Ethereum main goal should be to be a platform for developers, where developers know, okay, this is credible neutral platform. I can build applications here that last or can last for, yeah, long time for decades.

And I don't have the risk that the platform will just be turned off or just kind of changes in significant ways. And in that world, of course, the biggest problem is that Ethereum so far scales poorly or kind of has reached its capacity since a long time, and we need ways to improve the capacity. And again, ideally to do so without losing the network effects of, of what makes Ethereum already attractive. And that's really kind of the liquidity and the contracts and kind of everything that is, is, yeah, happening on L1.

So in my view, if there would be consensus to say Ethereum really kind of what counts is, is how many transactions is Ethereum able to process, how many fees is Ethereum generating in total out of all those transactions. and that's really kind of also what gives either value, because let's say those transactions fees are burned and in some form that is what defines either. Then I think it would be

much clearer to say, well, that's at least direction we need to go and we cannot just outsource all of that additional block space creation to third parties, essentially, which are essentially current L2s. We need to do that ourselves.

And so actually one last question. It sounds like you are in the camp of L2s being parasitic to Ethereum. Would that be correct? Well, I mean, no, not really because I would say, I think, I would say Ethereum L2s created the value and therefore it's totally fair that they captured the value. So I would just say kind of if Ethereum wants to capture value from. from L2s, it needs to develop them and deploy them itself. And Ethereum should, I mean, I would say Ethereum is not parasitic to L2s.

So it is not capturing the value they created, but that's simply how it should be. And if Ethereum wants to capture value from L2, then it needs to also do the work. Okay. Well, I would say that means that you do think that they're parasitic. but anyway, well, Martin, it's been really fun chatting with you. Where can people learn more about you and your work? Yeah, I'm pretty active on Twitter, at least. Well, always if I have something new to push, then I'm using Twitter as the main medium.

And your handle is? Yeah, a couple of months. So, K-O-E-P-E-L-M-A-W-N. Okay, perfect. It's been a pleasure, happy you want Unchained. All right. Thanks for having me. Thanks so much for joining us today. To learn more about Martin and his proposal for Ethereum Native Layer 2s, check of the show notes for this episode.

Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin, both up from Matt Pilger, Juan Ovanovich, Megan Gavis, Pamma Jimdar, and Marka Curia. Thanks for listening. Unchained is now a part of the Coin Desk Podcast Network. For the latest in digital assets, check out markets daily five days a week with host Noel Atchison. Follow the CoinDesk Podcast Network for some of the best shows in crypto.