Unchained - Crypto Actually Fixes This: How Code to Inspire Uses Crypto in Afghanistan - Ep.276

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unchained, your no-hype resource for all things crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin, a journalist with over two decades of experience. I started covering crypto six years ago, and as a senior editor at Forbes, was the first mainstream media reporter to cover cryptocurrency full-time. This is the September 28th, 2021 episode of Unchained. My book The Cryptopians' Idealism, Greed Lies, and the making of the first big cryptocurrency craze is available for pre-order on Amazon, Barnes & Ophithe. or any of your favorite bookstores. Go to Bitley slash Cryptopians. That's B-I-T-L-Y-S-C-R-Y-P-T-O-P-I-N-S, and pre-order today. Ledger is the secure gateway to buy, exchange, and grow your crypto.

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Starting point is 00:01:27 crypto asset reference data, and token and blockchain events, tracking. Learn more at digital asset research.com. Today's guest is Foreshda Fero, founder and CEO of Code to Inspire, a coding school for girls in Afghanistan. Welcome, Farhashda. Thank you so much, Laura, for having me. So regular listeners to the show will remember that Foreshda was mentioned in an interview I did with Steve Erlich of Forbes. And people were interested in hearing more about her and more about real-world use cases of crypto. So for Resta, thank you so much for joining us, especially because world news in recent months has had a direct impact on you and your family. But before we get into those recent

Starting point is 00:02:12 events, why don't we start with your personal story as a refugee and how you became a computer science professor? Absolutely. Well, I was born as a refugee in Iran during the Soviet invasion to Afghanistan. My parents are originally from Herod. It's a city in west of Afghanistan. very mountainous and beautiful, and one of the main cities that the heart of the ancient Silk Road was passing through the city. Unfortunately, my parents, the same as a lot of other people in Afghanistan, has to leave the country and find a safe haven for their children. I was born in a very small town, close to Iran and Afghanistan border. I grew up in a big family, eight children. I'm the fifth one. So you can imagine I'm not the oldest and I'm not the youngest.

Starting point is 00:03:00 So I kind of like I think grew up independent. And I think that's really shaped my character. Certainly being born, you know, as a refugee, grew up as a refugee, it's a lot of issues that you're facing. Not only the discriminations that you're facing with because you're just indifferent. And unfortunately, sometimes people look at you as an unwanted guest and they think that you're here to steal the opportunities from. them. And that makes it very difficult for you to blend into the community. And then the financial aspects of it, being a refugee, you will be denied access certain basic and fundamental rights in the country that you're in, such as opening bank accounts, accessing education in a school.

Starting point is 00:03:51 And that was one of the big issues that we were facing with my family. And I remember that my mom learned how to stitch and make dresses. And by selling them, she could bring money to the family and she could invest in our education. So I guess from the very early age, I learned to be entrepreneur and how you can start great things with empty hands. And that's what I learned from my mom.

Starting point is 00:04:17 And I know the value of education and how it is important. We moved to Afghanistan one year after the fall of Taliban when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan 2002 to Herod and I applied for university entrance. And by chance and randomly, I got into computer science. That was certainly not my favorite field of study. And my family really encouraged me to continue because they said it's the future.

Starting point is 00:04:48 It's something that we think can help you a lot. And I continue studying computer science. I got my bachelor from Herod University. university and then I received a scholarship. I went to Germany and I got my master's in computer science from Technical University of Berlin, went back and taught as a computer science professor for about three years in Herod University. So certainly, I guess, my life is started as a refugee being denied accessing education. And as a woman, studying computer science and teaching computer science in Herat and Afghanistan, the discrimination, the backlash

Starting point is 00:05:26 I faced the verbal sexual harassment in the working and educational space that I face in a lot of women made me to think about how I can change the situation for women, especially in technology sector. And that's how it led me to establish Code Tunisphire as the first coding the school for girls in Afghanistan, January 2015. And tell us what Coton Inspire does. So with Cote to Inspire, there's three important pillar of the work. First, we provide a single gender school, you know, only for women and girls so that the family feel comfortable sending their daughters to our school. Second, we offer the school for free because a lot of the girls come from a challenging

Starting point is 00:06:11 financial backgrounds. And the third, which is the most important pillar of the work, is we offer certain technical skills that can be translated either into job opportunities within the community in Afghanistan, or we can outsource projects to them so the students can work remotely, or they can be entrepreneur and create their own company and startups and hire more women. Since 2015, we've educated more than 350 students in our coding classes, such as game design, web development, mobile, and also blockchain crypto currency and graphic design class. with our graduates, the data that we have, well, pre-Talabone, unfortunately, since a month ago,

Starting point is 00:07:03 60 to 70% of our students are found job within the community, and they're getting paid, some of them above average income salary, which is $150 per month in Afghanistan. We've outsourced more than 40 projects worth of $30,000 to our students, and a group of our graduates, about 10% of them, they created their own startups, raise funds, and hired more women. And our school, again, pre-Talabon, was a physical location in Herod, full-time for our students, and the classes were being taught in person. And so give us a sense of kind of what girls' education and opportunities are in Afghanistan, aside from this school.

Starting point is 00:07:50 like, you know, if they don't have this kind of opportunity, then what does that look like for them? Well, there's certainly a lot of challenges and issues, not only right now, which is a whole different story with the Taliban taking over Afghanistan, but even in past, infrastructure is a big issue. If you talk about big cities, still there's lack of buildings, staff and teachers and resources for students, especially female schools. the lack of equipment, you know, like having laptops, internet connections, and the commute would be a big issue for the girls to leave their house, especially the ones who live far away from the school. If you leave the big cities in rounding and especially in villages, you won't have facility for that.

Starting point is 00:08:42 You may have access to primary or maybe secondary education, but you don't have high school just because, again, the population is financially underserved. There's not a lot of resources for them, such as schools, buildings, and the families won't feel comfortable, you know, sending their daughters to travel a long way to go to the next big city to get the education. So the lack of resources and infrastructure really is a big issue to access equal education, especially for girls and women.

Starting point is 00:09:18 And then besides that, of course, the cultural, the patriarchal society and the extremists make it very difficult for the girls to access education. Sometimes families become under the influence of the extremists and won't let their daughter to continue education. Forced marriages, early marriages are one of the important factors that the girls drop from school because once they get married, fiance or the husband won't let them to continue education. And of course, they gain financial issues. Not a lot of family can invest on extra curricula activities. They prefer to invest on the boy's education because they think that the boy is going to be the future breadwinner, not the girl. So they prefer to send the boy to the school, not the girl. So these are some of the main important factors of why girls' education would be very difficult, not only in cities, but also

Starting point is 00:10:15 in areas outside of the city for Afghanistan. Can you maybe give some examples of kind of what risks girls face when they do try to seek out an education? Yes, well, definitely the backlash is, you know, and the threats they face from either their family members or the community. A lot of times maybe the male members of the family relatives would be against the education. And if they raise their voice, they may face threats. It can be threats such as like, you know, they hit them, you know, violence against women, they locked them at home or the extreme way of like extremists burn the schools for girls. We do have incidents of, you know, extremists and the Taliban burning girls' schools. And that's

Starting point is 00:11:04 make the family feel so scared and uncomfortable to risk the lives of the girls to, you know, send them to school. Even like trying to do the commute from one location to another, location, they may be abducted, you know, by unknown people. So these are like serious concerns that make it very difficult sometimes for families to, even if they want to send their daughters to school, won't be, feel comfortable to do that. And so since founding code to inspire, what impact have you seen it have? So there's a lot of inspiring stories, you know, and great stories of the girls who came to the school and graduated. I can say a majority of the girls who join our coding school didn't have access to internet connections. They didn't have laptops,

Starting point is 00:11:56 even basic phones. So they were totally living in an offline world. And with the infrastructure and equipment we provided for them, that was certainly a very life-changing, not only looking at the educational aspects of it, but all the financial aspects of it. These are the girls who came to school. They were so shy. They really didn't believe in themselves. They didn't have self-esteem. And we encouraged them, you know, building their own life around what they're learning and be outspoken and raise their voice. No one would question them. And we see that like their self-esteem boosted. They now have social media accounts and, you know, write about their activities. I give you one example of one of our graduates. She came to the school

Starting point is 00:12:44 when she was in 10th grade and when we interviewed her was like, why you want to join this coding school? And she said, I want to make money. And we were like, that's great. And you know, nothing wrong with making money. And she came from a very financial challenging background. She even couldn't pay for the community. But she was so motivated that we sponsored her commute, gave her a laptop to take home. And once she graduated, she was one of the top graduates. And one day she texted me and she said, you can't believe what I say,

Starting point is 00:13:16 that I convince the company that they're all men, that they can make a website for you and take your business online. And they agreed, and they're going to pay me $200. So I was like, wow, you're such a badass, like, you know, like such young age to convince, you know, their companies and men to give you an opportunity. and now you are bringing money to the family, which makes you to have a voice in the family

Starting point is 00:13:42 and be a part of decision-making process in the family. And we have tons of stories like that. Yeah, well, I was going to ask you, do you feel that the experience that the girls have, that it changes attitudes either in their family or in their communities, or does the existence of the school in general, has that had an impact in changing attitudes?

Starting point is 00:14:05 Absolutely. You know, when we started a program and we were kind of like posting in our social media about our activities, a lot of people, especially men, very educated, even some computer science men, they're like, oh, like, that's useless what they're learning. They're going to get married. They're going to like, you know, go to the house, clean the kitchen, make babies and stuff like that. And it was so offensive because they couldn't see that, you know, there is a path. to financial freedom with what we are trying to do. And after a year or so, when we have graduates and we helped them, you know, with jobs and giving them opportunities, they brought the money to the family. And some of them actually may double or triple than the men in the family. And the family couldn't believe that the girl of the family is capable of doing something that the boy of the family is not. and they called us. They start calling us. The father, the brother, the husbands came, checked to school, and they said we can't believe. We see that she's behind the computer. She's doing something. But we have no idea, but she's bringing money to the family. And they started calling the relatives and other people and encouraged their daughter to join in school and we received calls from others. So it became very organic once people realized that there's a value on

Starting point is 00:15:33 investing, education, and the cause being able to bring money to the family. That's great. Yeah. I mean, just when you were talking earlier, you know, it's such a contrast if I think about growing up here in the U.S., like there's no question that you had sent a girl to school. So, you know, what your thing is is just very eye-opening for somebody who grew up here. But one other thing I found fascinating was I have seen a video about Code to Inspire where the girls were making video games and the protagonist or the player in the game, they made it as an Afghan girl. And then the video showed that there were Afghan boys playing this game. And I just wondered, how do you think things like that have also changed perceptions of girls in Afghanistan?

Starting point is 00:16:20 Absolutely. So like beside education, we also want to change the perspective of community towards girls' education and empowerment. And we've been creating different games and apps that they're geared towards certain problem in the community. And one of them was the Afghan hero girl game that you're referring to. I remember we had a brain-assarming session with our students in game class, and we're kind of like, okay, what would be the next game? And then they're like, you know, like, we're kind of like tired of seeing all these like superheroes in the game are first mainly men.

Starting point is 00:16:55 And we see that they're just like targeting certain geographical, you know, a population. There's very less female superhero and also like from Afghanistan or from a Muslim country. So then we are like, okay, what about we create our own superhero? And then they create that the Afghan hero girl during traditional outfit and going through different stages. And it was certainly an eye-opening experience for us too. We couldn't believe that the game would have such a good feedback. I mean, we have thousands of downloads, hundreds of comments, and they're all men who are giving us the comments that,

Starting point is 00:17:36 oh, what if you put the air here? Or what if you add this function? So, like, it's great to see that they're engaged. And when the little girls were playing that game, they were like, oh, I want to be a superhero like her. And I want to, you know, like, have that power. And I think that's very, very empowering and important in such a young age when they see a role model and a superhero that they can be that person.

Starting point is 00:18:04 So at a certain point, Code to Inspire began adopting crypto. How did you guys start using it and why? So with the cryptocurrency, that's interesting. I get to know about it late 2013, I think early 2014. And that was, again, because of work that I was doing with Afghanistan, sending payments. And it was certainly a big issue just, you know, with the bank system requiring a lot of paperwork and takes a lot of time and all the K-YC.

Starting point is 00:18:33 And of course it's Afghanistan. So people are kind of like giving you more hard time when you deal with Afghanistan, especially I guess with the financial issue. The Western Union also we tried, but it was very costly with the fees that we had to pay. And those fees were a lot. $10 to $15 would be, you know, covering a family for a couple of days to have food on their table. And then PayPal is not operating in Afghanistan. So that was also like not an option for us.

Starting point is 00:19:02 And a lot of the people who were sending money, the girls were underage. So they didn't have a bank account. So these issues were very time consuming, very, you know, dealing with a lot of paperwork. And it was frustrating at some point. And that's how I learned about cryptocurrency and that time, of course, Bitcoin and how fascinating is the technology that like very fast without any third party and so secure you can just like send directly money to the girls and they can have it and since then i get to know more about the technology itself and then how we can help the girls and we started sending crypto to

Starting point is 00:19:45 Afghanistan and then with code to aspire particularly we started teaching you know blockchain technology, smart contracts, solidity, decentralized apps to our students. And actually, as of this week, five of our students are part of the Consensus Academy, which we're very excited. So hopefully they will finish the course and it will be a great experience for them. And then with the organization itself, we do accept crypto as of them as donations since 2015. And I can say probably we are one of the very early organization who accepted crypto's donation, but also keep holding it so that hopefully down the road we can use it for more powerful and help more population in Afghanistan. And then also sending since January, we used to send on and off, but since this January, we only are sending crypto to Afghanistan for our.

Starting point is 00:20:50 monthly operation and recently for the care package cash assistance that we are helping our students who are losing jobs and their family. So it's amazing. It's like it's unbelievable how this technology can help in such a critical moment where the banks are closed. The Western Union has limited services and nothing is working in Afghanistan. We are probably again one of the very only organizations and peoples who are using it in such a large scale. Wow. So I have so many questions about this. But initially when you started describing how you first began using crypto, was that

Starting point is 00:21:32 to make payments to the girls for gigs that they did? Or was it to fund your operations, like accepting donations? Or like what was that initial purpose for using the crypto at that time? combination of both, but mainly for the girls who were using, you know, worked for the remote work. And we wanted to, like, send it quicker to them. Oh, I see. And so then once you receive that money, and I'm sure this has changed over time, but how are you turning that into Afghanis, which is the local currency? Yeah, that's a great question. It was so difficult at the beginning, because at the beginning, we kind of had to like act as an exchange ourselves because no one knew about it.

Starting point is 00:22:19 So we would, you know, if you send the crypto to the girls and they wanted to cash out, they would come to us and we give them cash. But then we found, you know, there's a financial district in Herod that people do money exchange. They exchange Afghanis to dollar, euro and vice versa. And then since kind of like in November last year, we were like, okay, it's too complicated. And we're done with all this, you know, like third part. and paperwork and everything is just like too much.

Starting point is 00:22:48 And let's see how we can work it out. And then we start investigating. And then we found some people in the financial district of Harad that they said, yes, we can exchange crypto for you. And then we start in a smaller scale, you know, just building a trust with the relationship with them and see how it works. And it worked so great for us that now that one person is actually about three or four people. So now there are more people who do that.

Starting point is 00:23:15 So what we do, we send crypto from our wallet to our team wallet in Afghanistan. And then they go to the exchange and they convert it to mainly U.S. dollar. And then we distribute the cash among the team, pay for, you know, rent utility, and also again recently for the cash assistance for our students. Oh, so they're actually turning into U.S. dollars. And then I guess later on, when they need the money, then they put it into Afghanis or something. Is that? Yes.

Starting point is 00:23:50 Then they can go to any money exchange there and convert their dollar to Afghani if they want. And for those individual sellers that you are trading with, are they associated with any of those kind of, you know, Craigslist style sellers like local bitcoins or Paxville or are they just kind of like independent people that offer this service? They're independent people that they offer the services. Oh, interesting. And do you know, I mean, other than Code to Inspire, how popular, you know, crypto is in Afghanistan or what other people are using it for, if any? To be honest with you, I think since last winter, the crypto got more momentum in Afghanistan, and we did have a lot of people who reached out to me, either from colleagues or either nonprofits

Starting point is 00:24:42 who reach out and they said, oh, like, we see that, like, you do a lot of crypto. Can you give us a little bit of, like, how it works? We're interested, you know, to explore that because, again, of the financial difficulties you're facing. And they connect some of them to this, you know, money exchange person that we know and trust. So I see, and even recently, a couple of weeks ago, again, because of the humanitarian crisis that's happening in Afghanistan with everything and the bank closed and the Western Union, more nonprofits reaching out to me, humanitarian aids, reach out to me and ask how we are handling it. And I'm kind of like, you know, putting them in touch with the people that we know.

Starting point is 00:25:22 And hopefully, you know, that actually would be a way that like it opens the door for cryptocurrency to be adopted more. This is just so interesting. And so for the community around your school, like the girls and their families and, you know, people just who know generally about code to inspire. What would you say that their perception is of cryptocurrency now because of all this? So first of all, it was very unknown to them. They're like, what is this? I can't touch it.

Starting point is 00:25:54 It's like you say over internet, you know? It's very difficult. They were like, is it a scam or you want to like scam us? People had a lot of, you know, different thoughts about this. And, you know, I hear them because like they used to. do all these old system of only keeping cash under their pillows and how they like, you know, kind of like save their money. So when you go and tell them, you know, it's money over internet, they kind of like, and especially when they don't have a basic digital literacy,

Starting point is 00:26:25 then that would be more difficult to talk to them about this. But then once we started, you know, sending to our own team as an example and how they used it, you know, for their own, we could pay for our rent and then we start sending the cash assistance to our students and now the family is getting it now when people at the end of the day they see the cash they understand what's the work full of it but also like how it is important the privacy aspect of it how you can control your money because in geographical locations like Afghanistan that it's always been on conflict war and you know know, the political system change a lot and each of them come and they have their own agenda, it's really difficult to trust in the centralized system, the banks and the governments,

Starting point is 00:27:16 because you don't know what kind of regulations they bring. And then, for example, even right now, a lot of people who left Afghanistan, who got the evacuation, majority of them left their bank account behind and they don't know if they can access that back account anytime soon, you know. God knows how much money they have it, but they had a decent amount of number, you know. And to be able to, you know, carry your finance with yourself outside of the conflict zone. That's a very big lesson that a lot of people are learning. And I think crypto will change that and help the people to realize that it's important to be as much as independent, especially if you're living in a conflict zone.

Starting point is 00:28:01 Wow. Yeah, this is so interesting that you're saying all. this because, you know, I feel like there's, for the longest time in the crypto industry, there's been this idealistic notion that crypto will help the unbanked. And at least here in the U.S., it doesn't seem to have happened to a great extent. So, you know, I'm glad to hear that people seem to be benefiting from that in Afghanistan. But, you know, I just want to get a sense, like, do you still feel that it's not very widespread and it's just kind of like a small number of people in the know? Or do you feel like, you know, it's kind of like something that people are hearing about quickly? Yeah, it's not really still widespread, but I guess like

Starting point is 00:28:47 within the international community and people who are sending AIDS to Afghanistan, that's something that there are in investigating and are open to explore because they all of a sudden faced a blockage of like sending AIDS to Afghanistan. And they also like don't want to send the money to the banks with this situation. So they want to like, they're exploring ways that firsthand send the money to the people who are in need. And that's the only way. So that's great to see that now the international community and the AIDS are looking at crypto as a way to, you know, how fast and secure they can send funds instead of relying and sending money to the banks and to the government, I can say.

Starting point is 00:29:28 All right. So in a moment, we're going to talk a little bit more about the effect of the withdrawal from Afghanistan of U.S. troops has had there. But first a quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible. Does your firm need rigorously vetted crypto market data that's aligned with the latest regulatory standards? Since 2017, digital asset research has delivered high quality crypto data to institutional clients like Futsi Russell and Bloomberg. Digital Asset Research offers clean crypto asset prices and verifiable volume data that's calculated from highly vetted sources, crypto asset reference data, and an events calendar that tracks token and blockchain events like hard forks, soft forks, and client and application updates.

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Starting point is 00:31:26 No need to use different platforms to manage and secure your crypto. You have one place for all your crypto needs. Visit ledger.com and make your crypto journey easier and safer. Back to my conversation with Foresh. So you've kind of been alluding to the impact that the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Afghanistan has had there. But, you know, right now, you know, for all that you described about code to inspire, what is the situation now? is the school functioning, you know, what has happened to the girls and their families, etc.?

Starting point is 00:31:58 Well, the situation on the ground is certainly very devastating, not only because a humanitarian crisis is happening right now. Banks are closed. There's no job economies are falling apart. You know, a lot of people are dealing with hunger and even they don't have money to like, you know, covered basics necessities. And that's what we're also like dealing with our students. their families who about 80 of them reach out to me and they said they have even not having the bread at home. And it's very difficult because majority of them lost jobs, and especially women. But despite the humanitarian crisis, of course, education, which is a fundamental human right. And everyone should access to education, no matter of their gender identity or

Starting point is 00:32:47 any inviferences, is getting a lot of backlashes in Afghanistan. Since Afghanistan fallen to the Taliban, August 15, I can say that, you know, that was the first day that Herod my city, after two weeks of resistance, captured by Taliban. And for me, watching the videos of Taliban walking to the city was very heartbreaking tragic. I remember that day, and for the next couple of days, I cried a lot because we couldn't believe that just things are unfolding so quickly like that. And all the work that they've done and everyone else have done this past 20 years may be taken from us. And then unfortunately within one week, so quickly the entire Afghanistan, as I've never except Pan sheer, got into the influence of Taliban. And when people say Taliban 2.0, they changed.

Starting point is 00:33:48 I don't think they changed because if they've changed, but the situation right now wouldn't be devastating, right? that. First of all, of course, we closed to school because we didn't want to know. And we closed the school before, even two weeks before, when the attacks happened around the city because of the safety of our students. And this school is still closed because we don't know what going to happen if we open the school in person, even though we are a single gender school. And apparently, Taliban shouldn't have issue with that. Regarding the education, well, the Taliban allowed the girls to go to school only from first to, sixth grade. And then four days ago, they announced the first day back to school. And with their announcement, they only said the boys can go to school from first to 12th grade. So they let the boys

Starting point is 00:34:37 from, you know, seventh grade to 12th grade and other private institutes religious school, go to school, but not women. No girls from 7 to 12th grad are allowed to go to school, still as of now. And also the universities. They had conversation with the board of universities, but they only had conversation with the male board and the professors and not women. And they kind of like make an excuse that they say, oh, we're thinking about separation, you know, of the classes. But the high school of the girls in Afghanistan are already separated. You know, the school are separated. The building is separated. So why they don't let the girls go to school? Well, you know, university, yes, there used to be mixed classes, but not the high school. And that's like what,

Starting point is 00:35:30 you know, you can trust them because they're not clear, you know, and they are, of course, you know, preventing girls go to school and the same as the university. And also work, you know, we had like students who used to work in offices that, you know, they used to work and now they're not going there because they're not allowed to go. And they don't. know if they can return to the offices and work. So it is a shame that all these millions of girls who had hopes, you know, who had dreams. And every day they go to school now, they're home and they don't know what's going to happen to them. And their future is not clear. Yeah, I saw you tweeted that girls there are texting you messages like,

Starting point is 00:36:19 I am afraid for my life. I haven't eaten these past days and slept in different. houses over nights for my safety. And I wondered, so this was from a few weeks ago, and I wondered, has that changed at all? Do they, is the comfort level a little bit higher now? Or is, are the girls still living in a state of fear? Yes. I mean, definitely the girls are still living in a state of fear and trauma. I still, you know, received messages from girls that they're like, you know, I lost hope. I wanted to do this and that, but I don't think. if there would be a possibility for me to have education outside of Afghanistan, will you help me?

Starting point is 00:36:59 So I received a lot of emails and texts, not only from our students, but from people that haven't met and they ask for help. And it's, again, so heartbreaking to see that a functioning government, and I don't deny that there was corruption in the previous government, right? And there were still, like, people who were against women's education, work and employment. it wasn't the perfect government, but at least it was functioning. My school was open, and I could help the girls to get education, you know,

Starting point is 00:37:31 and a lot of girls around Afghanistan could go to school. But with this government, it seems everything is closed only for women, and they just totally ignoring half of the community and the society. So the girls are going through a lot of trauma. I mean, like we weren't able even to continue any hour of classes virtual because they just like can't concentrate, you know. Some of them left the city with their family. They're in other cities.

Starting point is 00:37:57 Some of them left the country. And some of them, you know, their house got shot by the Taliban or because of the explosion. You know, the house got destructed. So just I can't imagine when you're dealing with all that. You still, you know, have the motivation to continue and like, you don't have hope for your future. And so are you just kind of in an indefinite holding pattern with code to inspire? Or is there any sign that would kind of make you feel comfortable opening it again? And also, you know, when you talked about how you can't do virtual classes,

Starting point is 00:38:37 I didn't know how widespread Internet would be in homes. So I didn't know, like, you know, is this something where they could kind of take these classes in their own homes or do the coding work in their own homes? Yes. Well, I mean, there's two possibilities here, right? I mean, maybe I would be able to keep the school open under certain rules and circumstances. And sure, why not? Because that space was a safest space for the girls and they accessed a lot of resources. And if that space can be open and of course they would be safe, why not? I'll keep the school open and that would be great. But for whatever reason, if we wouldn't be able to keep the school open, of course, virtual is what we're going to pursue and do that. Well, within the next month or so, we hopefully have a better understanding of what's the agenda and how we can move forward. But absolutely, I will continue my work ritual. I make sure if the girl has a laptop, internet connections at home, we put all the content we have online and we help them to, you know, their classes the same as before, but virtual, in a safe space at their home, and then help them to find jobs, you know, remotely, which right now we still have about, like, three clients that about eight of our students are still working, you know, and do their projects online, which kept them hopeful. And I think that's one thing that we will continue no matter what.

Starting point is 00:40:05 Yeah, I did see that back in 2018, Code to Inspire did start a partnership with Bounties Network to allow the girls to collect Bounties and EF for fixing vulnerabilities in code. Is that something you're still doing? And if not, like are there other ways that the crypto community or that blockchain technology generally can help in this situation? Yeah, that was actually a very exciting project that we worked with. and we had some of our students get engaged to some small projects, and it was great, you know.

Starting point is 00:40:40 But right now we're not that much involved, but it was certainly a great eye-opening experience for our students to work, you know, in such platforms and then get to know about crypto. And as of now, yes, I mean, we are trying to find people who wants to help us with their skill and expertise if they can help us to create a very strong, you know, private, secure online platform.

Starting point is 00:41:04 educational for our students. And then people who have experienced teaching coding and help us with different, you know, set of programming languages to create videos so we can share with our students or want to be mentored, you know, and help our students with their codings. And with the companies, definitely, if they want to, you know, offer internship for our students, part-time, full-time projects and work, I mean, these are the opportunities that we would be able, you know, by giving a laptop and buying Internet. package for our students, help them to get motivated and continue what they do from the safety of their house. And there's also been a lot of talk and work on things like decentralized identity

Starting point is 00:41:48 solutions or decentralized mesh networks for offering internet. Is that something that would be helpful in this situation at all? To be honest with you, I don't know what would be the Taliban agenda regarding the internet censorship. You know, I don't know if they, you know, going to censor or are they going to track people or, you know, what would be their agenda on that? Because, for example, before their attack to the Herod city, they actually bombed a main internet tower and electricity tower. And that actually was a huge damage to the entire Western region. The whole city and the Western region were offline for a couple of weeks. And, you know, of course, with the work we do and if it should be virtual, then that would be

Starting point is 00:42:34 a big issue. So I think it's just like, again, you know, it depends on like how they interact with, you know, the infrastructure, if they're going to bring any damage, any censorship, and, you know, tracking people. And these are like the factors and variables that we really want to take into consideration and make it as private, encrypted, you know, safe for the girls even to have an online identity. Okay. But. So so far, it sounds like the financial part of crypto is what has been most useful for your school. Yes. Okay.

Starting point is 00:43:14 Well, so in that regard, one question I had is I'm assuming, and correct me if I'm wrong, that perhaps the cryptocurrencies that most people donate are Bitcoin and Ether, and they're also the most liquid. But at the moment, or really for kind of a while now, they've both been experiencing somewhat high fee. on the base layer chain. Does that affect you at all? Like I noticed today, the day we're recording that the fees, the average transaction fee on Bitcoin is about $2.50. And for Ether today, it's like a little under $4.

Starting point is 00:43:50 But a few days ago, as high as $7. So I didn't know if that has affected you at all or if it's not something that, you know, if it's something that the sellers don't really count. Yeah, I think we really don't. haven't faced issues with that. And again, with the person who exchanged the crypto for us even there, they don't charge us like a crazy amount. We want to make them happy and keep them happy to do business with us. So we pay very small fee to them. By it so far, no, we haven't been much influenced by that. And again, the fact that we are using this technology. And in this

Starting point is 00:44:28 situation, it's just like the best tool that's just enabled us and help us. So we are We're very happy with the way that we are managing our finance and sending money to Afghanistan. So from your perspective, as somebody who does use crypto a lot in a very crucial way, are there any kind of like requests you would make to developers in the industry for tools or for certain types of technology that you feel would be useful or just anything you feel that entrepreneurs in the space could think about? Yes, I still think that, as you said, when we talk about crypto, when we say the notion of it was to help the unbanked and underserved communities. I think it's still probably a lot of the solutions that comes out.

Starting point is 00:45:17 It's, again, it's former privileged people who do have access to bank, who do have credit cards or some sort of, you know, financial freedom and living in a more relaxed community. So any solutions, especially for people who live in a constant conflict, and, you know, war and displacement, either to keep their identity private, to keep their, you know, documents private and that can't carry with themselves, you know, any part of the world. I think that's something that's very important, how you can keep your documents somewhere, you know, very private that you can access, but also like you can use it, you know, because down the road when you are a refugee, you leave everything behind. And even carrying certain documents would be very dangerous for you because then,

Starting point is 00:46:04 they can identify who you are, and that would be a big issue. So that's something that I think if there are solutions around would be helpful. And also in case of finance, again, solutions of like if exchanges or any apps or any solution that can help people not only rely on the local exchange, but, you know, like create, you know, more faster and easier way for them to access the crypto market, but also would be able to cash it out. I mean, right now, if you want to create accounts and different exchanges, the KYC, which is understandable, but it would be very difficult for a lot of people in Afghanistan just because a lot of them don't have proper documents and identification. And that's one step that won't let them to even create an account, let alone to use that exchange and everything.

Starting point is 00:46:56 Yeah, well, that's what I was talking about when I was mentioning blockchain-based identities. but have you, like I don't know of any that are kind of in widespread use. Is that something that you've looked into at all? No, to be honest with you. I don't have any knowledge around it. Yeah, I don't feel like I've heard kind of a lot of, you know, concrete work in that area. But that is something that I think could address these issues that you're discussing. As, you know, we've been discussing throughout this interview, there's

Starting point is 00:47:29 clearly a lot of sexism and discrimination that you have faced in Afghanistan as a woman. But this is an issue in a lot of parts in the world. And here in the U.S., and just in general, you know, you could say in the Western world, like Europe and the U.S., you know, there aren't as many women in crypto or involved in blockchain technology as there are men. And I just wondered from your experience as a woman in tech in Afghanistan, do you have any advice for bringing more women into crypto or advice to women in the field who feel that they're facing sexism and discrimination? Yes. It's an interesting question because I can say I got a thick

Starting point is 00:48:11 skin now and I really like don't get bothered, you know, I guess, just like because I went through a lot. But and I'm generally speaking, I'm a risk taker person. So I kind of like, you know, I was just like go for it. And I'm just like, I'm just like, go for it. And I'm, not really like get bothered by all these issues. But what I think from being indifferent, you know, just a refugee, hiding my true identity in Iran as a refugee and then a woman in technology in Afghanistan being very outspoken, social, which cost me a lot, I think being indifferent even as like a woman in a group that they're all men. It's beautiful because You bring a different perspective to everyone else's perspective who is similar.

Starting point is 00:49:03 So you have actually way stronger voice rather than the rest of the group. You think you are outnumbered, but actually your voice is stronger because your opinion and the value you bring to the table is much more different and might be, you know, things that they've never imagined. So I think even if you walk in in a room, doesn't matter if it's like a tech meeting in crypto space, you know, any space that you walk in and you are one of the very few women or the only woman, you should be so proud that you are in that group

Starting point is 00:49:37 because those people actually given an opportunity to see a different perspective. So for me, I think you have to just go for it and those single number of women in those meetings are actually opening the doors for other women to walk in. So it is an opportunity. for us to take it and change the environment. And of course, it's not an easy path.

Starting point is 00:50:01 I'm sure a lot of women face a lot of, you know, sexism, verbal, sexual harassments and any other backlashes. But I think it's that I can be the one who can open the door for the rest. I'm sure, I'll take it. And I'll, like, lead that path. Earlier in the episode, you said that you had a lot of inspiring stories, like that one that you told about the girl. and I wondered if he wanted to share one more.

Starting point is 00:50:28 Yes, we had one other students that she was working with, you know, with a client here and working on the graphic design. And she was also coming from a challenging financial background, but she was brilliant student, very great graphic designer. They really liked her work and they picked her for doing the work for them. And she worked so good that the client were like, oh my God, we are so, you know, happy with her. And they used to pay her like $10 per hour.

Starting point is 00:50:59 And then they said, now you're going to pay you $30 per hour. And with that money, she used to use the laptop that we were giving her to do the work because she didn't have a laptop. She not only makes a lot of good money that she bought a laptop for herself, but also, like, you know, paid for the education for the brothers and also help the families. And that was like when she texted to me and she said, I couldn't believe that when I walk into this school, I could make this money. And I can buy a laptop for myself and now do the work and help my family.

Starting point is 00:51:33 It's just like unreal. And like that was the whole world to me to see that like her life changed like that. That's so great. I love it. So for listeners who were interested in helping code to inspire, what can they do? Where can they go? We are a nonprofit registered US 501.C3. So we are a tax-aductible organization both for, you know,

Starting point is 00:51:57 fiat currency and cryptocurrency. So if they're interested to support us, sponsor students, especially with the cash assistance that we are dealing with now, or purchasing equipment, they can check out website code toinspire.org, and they can donate to our cause. Besides that, we are looking for people who are interested in what we do right now, and care about the future of Afghan girls and their education.

Starting point is 00:52:28 We would like to have their expertise, as they said, in case of building a virtual system. If they've been teaching coding, use their, you know, materials and curriculum. If they are looking to hire our graduates and students, we are happy to have a conversation. So any possibilities, any opportunities that they think would certainly change lives. and would be really appreciated. So we're very open to have conversations with them. Great. And where can people learn more about you,

Starting point is 00:52:59 such as like a Twitter handle or something? Yes, my Twitter account F underscore Fru, that's my Twitter handle. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for coming on Unchained. Absolutely. Thanks for having me and appreciate that you gave your platform in such a difficult time for Afghanistan

Starting point is 00:53:16 who shut some lights and just raise more awareness about what's the current situation and the future for women of Afghanistan. Yeah, and I really wish you and all your students the best of luck navigating this time, and I really hope everything works out the best for all of you. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for joining us today. To learn more about Forresta and Code to Inspire, check out the show notes for this episode. Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin, without from Anthony Yun, Daniel Ness, and Mark Murdoch. Thanks for listening.

Unchained - Crypto Actually Fixes This: How Code to Inspire Uses Crypto in Afghanistan - Ep.276

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