Unchained - Crypto in China: What It Really Looks Like - Ep.139

Episode Date: October 1, 2019

Emily Parker, cofounder of Longhash, describes what the company, which has an Asia-focused incubator and data media site does, how she ended up launching an Asia-focused company, why she’s seeing US crypto teams and ICOs going to Singapore, why the Chinese government cracked down on crypto, and what misconceptions she sees about crypto in China. She explains how the Chinese still trade Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies despite the ban, why Tether plays a big role, how the China ban has affected crypto entrepreneurship and how the upcoming People's Bank of China digital currency could impact crypto. We also discuss how the attitude toward crypto has changed in Japan over time, why so many crypto teams are settling in Singapore, and whether or not the philosophies of censorship-resistance or decentralization resonate in China.  Thank you to our sponsors!  Crypto.com: https://crypto.com Kraken: https://www.kraken.com CipherTrace: http://ciphertrace.com/unchained Episode links:  Longhash: LongHash.com Longhash's Twitter: https://twitter.com/longhashdata Emily Parker: Emilyparkerwrites.com Emily Parker on Twitter: https://twitter.com/emilydparker Emily Parker on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emily-parker-738034142/ Longhash's incubator: https://incubator.longhash.com BTC trading by US EST and PST vs. China: https://www.longhash.com/news/american-traders-lead-on-bitcoin-rally-while-asian-traders-not-so-bullish Bitcoin metrics on Longhash: https://www.longhash.com/livecharts/bitcoin-social-metrics Emily's interview with SEC commissioner Hester Peirce: https://www.longhash.com/news/in-cryptocurrency-will-asia-surpass-the-us-exclusive-interview-with-sec-commissioner-hester-peirce Unchained interview with commissioner Peirce: https://unchainedpodcast.com/sec-commissioner-hester-peirce-come-talk-to-the-sec/ Longhash article showing more ICOs in Singapore than in US in Q1 2018: https://www.longhash.com/news/how-singapore-became-asias-ico-hub Longhash's graphic showing money transmitter laws in the US: https://www.longhash.com/news/is-cryptocurrency-money-depends-on-your-state Longhash on ICOs fleeing the US: https://www.longhash.com/news/after-years-of-regulatory-uncertainty-icos-are-fleeing-the-united-states Unchained interview with Primitive Ventures: https://unchainedpodcast.com/asia-edition-mining-a-crypto-yuan-and-the-two-main-reasons-the-chinese-are-interested-in-crypto-ep-102/ Unchained interview with Da Hongfei and Patrick Dai (not Lai!): https://unchainedpodcast.com/from-blockchains-to-mooncakes-two-chinese-crypto-founders-on-the-ico-and-bitcoin-exchanges-ban/ Unchained interview with CZ of Binance: https://unchainedpodcast.com/how-binance-became-the-most-popular-crypto-exchange-in-5-months-ep-84/ Emily's interview with Coincheck's president: https://www.longhash.com/news/lessons-from-the-largest-crypto-hack-in-history-exclusive-interview-with-coincheck-president-toshihiko-katsuya Longhash deck of cards of crypto players: https://www.longhash.com/news/fiftyfour-players-in-the-blockchain-industry-transformed-into-a-real-deck-of-cards Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi everyone, welcome to Unchained, your no-hype resource for all things crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin. In case you haven't heard, I have another crypto podcast called Unconfirmed. It's shorter, newsier, and comes out Fridays. If you haven't yet, go subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts. Also, find out what I think are the top stores in crypto by signing up for my weekly newsletter at Unchained Podcast.com. Crypto.com, get their app and buy crypto at true cost with no fees or markups. Get a metal MCO visa card with up to 5% back in all your spending. Want more? Download the crypto.com app today. Cracken is the best exchange in the world for buying and selling digital assets. It has the tightest security, deep liquidity, and a great fee structure with no minimum or hidden fees. Whether you're looking for a simple fiat on-ramp or futures trading, Crackin is the place for you.

Cipher Trace cutting-edge cryptocurrency intelligence powers anti-money laundering, blockchain analytics, and threat intel. Leading exchanges, virtual currency businesses, banks, and regulators themselves, use Cipher Trace to comply with regulation and to monitor compliance. My guest today is Emily Parker, co-founder of Longhash. Welcome, Emily. Thank you so much, Laura. I'm really excited to be here. You're the co-founder of Longhash, which people may be familiar with for its data journalism,

but there are actually two parts to the company. So can you describe what Longhash does? Sure. So the most general purpose of Longhash is to serve as a gateway to Asia, and both parts of the company try to achieve that goal. So on the incubator side, we help blockchain projects reach Asian markets, and we also try to help Asian projects go global. So we have offices all over the Asian region. And then we also have a data media platform, as you mentioned, in which we use data to help investors understand blockchain and cryptocurrency with an emphasis on Asian markets. And what's your background? Like, how did you come to the blockchain space and then end up founding Longhash, which, you know, obviously you sound American, which I believe you are.

Yes, I am. Which, you know, has a focus on Asia. Okay. Very, very reasonable question to ask. So I have been interested in China for a very long time. I started studying Chinese in high school. And basically, I've done a lot of different things in my career. I started out in journalism. I worked at the Wall Street Journal and also at the New York Times. But I also was served in the U.S. government as a policy advisor at the U.S. State Department. And then this is my second startup. So I've done a lot of different things. But I think the one consistent trend in my career has been Asia and technology. So when I was at the Street Journal in Hong Kong. I actually wrote a column looking at how the impact of the internet in China specifically. And then I went on to write a book looking at how the internet was changing lives in China, Cuba and Russia. And I've just been going back and forth to Asia for many, many years. And I've also spent a lot of time in Japan as well. And so cryptocurrency kind of got on my radar when I saw how big it was in China and how it was blowing up in China. and this kind of called my interest because it reminded me a lot of the internet because it was like this decentralized technology that was clearly making the Chinese government nervous.

And one thing I had learned from looking at the internet in China for many years is that it's very hard to shut it down. You can censor it, you can restrict it, but there's always going to be information that gets through. And so my instinct was that cryptocurrency would be similar. And you could even argue that the stakes were even higher because, you know, the internet is the spread of information and cryptocurrency is the spread of money, sometimes huge volumes of money. So I got very interested in cryptocurrency in China when I saw, A, how big it was becoming there. And B, when, you know, I saw that the Chinese government was trying to rein it in. And I kind of wanted to see what would happen. And that's, that was sort of my entry into the crypto world, was looking at it from the Chinese perspective. And what year was that? That was like 2017. So it was right before, right around the time when China was signaling that they were going to be cracking down on cryptocurrency. Oh, interesting. And then how did you have the idea to kind of build the business this way, you know, half incubator and half journalist or media outlet? So, you know, I went to China and I was kind of really, I met a lot of the people in the crypto world there.

I met the people that would become my co-founders, my partners. And, you know, initially the idea behind Longhash was more of a straight data media platform. You know, this idea that there's so much data in blockchain. Everyone always talks about that, right? Like how the data is transparent and you can see all this data, but it's not very easy to make sense of it. And it's not very easy to know, like, which data you should be paying attention to. So our initial idea was, okay, let's do like not just a media platform. of a hybrid, like a data media platform, because we're not a media platform like CoinDesk, for example.

You know, most of our stories use data analysis, but we're not a pure data platform either. So basically what we're trying to do is take, you know, data and tell stories around it and help people understand that data. So that was kind of the initial idea. And the other thing we really wanted to do was, you know, have a really global platform. You know, my partner, which I'm sure we'll get to later, is a huge part of the crypto world. It's a, you know, some people would say it's the heart of the crypto world. And we wanted to kind of increase coverage of those markets.

So, you know, in Longhash, our data media platform publishes in English, Chinese, and Japanese, and we also really try to cover those markets. And for long, for the data side, what types of data do you typically utilize for your stories? So we use quite a wide variety, but we use a lot of on-chain data. We use price data. You know, sometimes, I mean, sometimes we'll do more creative things, but we'll look at, like, the number of meetups in a certain country to, you know, gauge interest there. We'll look at social media data. You know, it's a pretty, it's a pretty wide, wide variety.

But our main focus, whatever data we use is to really try to tell a story around it and not just, like, put that data out there and have people have to make sense of it for themselves. Yeah, I was kind of poking around. And like I thought some of these were very interesting. Like there was a story that showed the Bitcoin price against the different time zones, Eastern time in the U.S., Pacific time. And then I forget the last one, but it was an Asian, like maybe Beijing time or something like that. And the conclusion when you looked at kind of the different graphs was that basically, at least for the last few months, the U.S.

crypto market has been more enthusiastic than the Chinese one. And then some others were like, you know, what is the price premium on Coinbase versus OKCoin? Or like tracking the Bitcoin price against like Bidu searches for Bitcoin. So yeah, yeah, these are really interesting. Thank you. I'm glad you think. Yeah, we use it. We do a very wide, you know, we really try to do a wide variety of analysis.

You know, we do things like we have a stable coin health index where we try to like rate the health of stable coins using various factors. Again, you know, we try to look at the level of social media. interest in China in cryptocurrency, for example. So yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty broad. And, but, but our main, our main point is to just try to make these stories understandable. And are there any types of data about the blockchain and crypto space that you find are actually still difficult to get, despite everybody kind of touting how transparent it all is? Oh, yeah. So many. I mean, well, first of all, the, yeah, the, the, the first point is that everyone says how transparent it is, but how many people actually know how to make it.

sense of blockchain data, right? I mean, everyone's like, oh, you can see everything on the blockchain. But it's not like the average person can just go and see everything on the blockchain and take a story away from that, right? A. But B, yeah, there are a lot of missing pieces to the data, you know, particularly, I mean, I think China is a case in point because when China cracked down on crypto exchanges, after that, you know, in late 2017, a lot of, China became a real black box, you know? And I think for those of us who spend a lot of time in Asia, we know, that there's a lot happening in China. We know that China has active trade, but it's really hard to find those numbers. It's really hard to prove that. And so I think China's a really good example of

like there's just not a lot of like specific data about like what exactly is going on there. I mean, in general, I think geographical data can be very difficult. I mean, a lot of people point to data from like local bitcoins, for example, but that's obviously not conclusive. And like part of the problem is like a lot of these exchanges, it's like unclear where they're actually based and unclear, like, who the majority of their users are. So it can be very difficult. I'm personally very interested in geographical data, and it can be difficult to find. Yeah, well, probably part of that is because since you are, you know, you do have this geographical focus. And then within Asia itself, there's so much variety. I could imagine you trying to sort of

parse the signals country by country. So just to kind of set the terms here, how do you define Asia, at least for your site or like what areas of Asia are you focused on? Yes, a very important distinction because, yes, you say Asian. Obviously, Asia is different countries have different rules. And not only that, the rules are changing constantly. It's a very dynamic space. So I would say that the countries that we are really kind of the most heavily focused on would probably be China and Japan and also Singapore. We do have a presence in Hong Kong as well.

But I say China, Japan and Singapore, at least, and those are the three places that I personally, I think, know the best. And is that why you decided to focus on those areas simply because that was your knowledge base? Not exactly. I think, you know, those three markets make a lot of sense. I mean, China, you know, is a very important market. I think it will continue to be regardless of the regulatory obstacles. Japan, just on kind of like the retail trading side, on the retail investing side is still huge.

In Singapore, I mean, you're just hearing more and more about. about how Singapore is kind of this like paradise of crypto and that they have friendly regulations. I think Singapore is a place that I just hear talked about a lot. So I think those three places, you know, are, they do make a lot of sense strategically. Obviously, another important country is Korea. We don't really have a presence there yet. I think hopefully eventually we will. But that's, yeah, that's, that's kind of the missing piece of that puzzle. Yeah, yeah, I was going to say, because I even noticed, I think one of the articles on your site showed the various trading pairs, and that was the third largest. It was USDA then, yeah,

the Japanese yen and then Korean won. So, yes, Korea is, no doubt, important. So very broadly, how would you characterize the differences between the crypto markets in the West or maybe even in particular in the West versus Asia? Yes. So it's a really tough question. So I think recently, so I just interviewed, um, a C.C.C. Commissioner Hester Purse, who I know you interviewed her as well. It was great interview. And she was visiting Asia for various reasons. She had various things that she was doing there. But one of the things she was doing in Singapore, at least, was trying to, you know, see the lay of the land and meet blockchain projects and learn about the crypto space there. And so I was talking to her specifically about this question, you know, how she sees kind of the U.S. crypto landscape as compared to the, you know, Asian crypto landscape.

And she was like pretty direct in saying that, you know, a lot of projects I'm talking to are avoiding the U.S. And, you know, Singapore, for example, seems to have a more open approach to regulation. And so, you know, that's something that I feel like you kind of hear a lot these days, you know, in the Asian crypto world that the U.S. is seen as, you know, either very strict or I think more important, very confusing. I think that's kind of, and that's what the commissioner was saying is that it's not so much a matter of strictness. is that the U.S. is just confusing, you know, like, and cryptocurrency is confusing enough, right? Like, it's already confusing. And then you had like kind of a layer of, you know, I mean, with the U.S., for example, you know, you have different regulatory bodies, you know, who that are involved in crypto A. Then you have different states that have different, you know, rules on money transmission. So we did, one of the visualizations we did at Longhash some time ago was we did a map of the United States looking at different.

approaches towards money transmission and, you know, kind of separating them by color. And it was like this rainbow map, right? You just couldn't, you know, it didn't make any sense. And then, and then, you know, so you have the different regulatory bodies and then you have this kind of rainbow map. And then you also have, you know, what is the security? What is a utility? You have the Howie test that like, you know, there's just a lot about the U.S. environment

that I think seems like you kind of need to be a securities lawyer to understand. And, you know, the commissioner at the SEC was basically acknowledging. acknowledging this and saying that like we just don't have enough clarity. And I feel like if someone at the SEC is saying this, you know, how is how is just a blockchain project going to figure it out? And I think there's this fear. I mean, the U.S. is obviously, you know, a very important market. And I think a lot of people want to be in the U.S. but there's this fear that like you could break a rule without even knowing that you're breaking it, you know, and who's going to want to take that risk? Right. Well, so for that reason,

I mean, are you seeing that there's then a lot of movement the other way? Because the way you've been phrasing this, it's a little bit like, oh, Asian projects maybe are scared to go there. But then are you seeing projects where, you know, maybe the teams are from the U.S., but then they go to Asia? Yeah. I mean, again, anecdotally, you know, I don't, it's, this isn't something. I don't know how big this phenomenon is. But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you definitely hear about companies that are, you know, registering in Singapore. You know, ICOs, we ran a story about how ICOs are leaving the United States.

You know, like there's, there is some data on this, right? So Elementus that does really good work in data. They just, they did, they released a report where last year in August for the first time, August of 2018, Singapore ICOs, the number of Singapore ICOs surpass those of the United States, which is kind of remarkable, you know, given that like comparing the size of Singapore and the United States, you know. So I think there's, you know, there's a bunch of data points like that, you know, where you're just kind of seeing this move, you know, and new exchanges that are kind of opening up in Asia. And, yeah, and projects that are, you know, they just, they just see, you know, places like Singapore as as more welcoming and more clear. And I don't, just to say, like, I don't think it has to be this way.

Like, I don't think it will necessarily always be this way. But that is kind of the feeling, you know, right now. And out of curiosity, do you think that some of that might be like, you know, obviously ICOs have been banned in China? So is some of that demand in Singapore Chinese people who somehow are able to participate in Singapore? Do you see what I'm asking? Yeah, of course. Sure. So that's like kind of the really fascinating thing about Asia is that it's so dynamic. And, you know, even in, you know, the two years or so where I've been watching Asia very closely, there's been so many changes. And And it's almost like whackamol, you know, like where something gets, there's some country clamps down and then all the activity goes somewhere else. And I feel like I've been watching this kind of spread throughout the region. Like, you know, when China cracked down on ICOs or when China sort of cracked down on crypto, a lot of activity went to Japan and Korea.

But then Japan and Korea have sent mixed signals. You know, Japan, for example, in early 2018, became a lot more strict on cryptocurrency. And then I think at that point, Singapore started. started looking more friendly. So, so yeah, it has, it has been moving around the region for sure. And I think a lot of people who are kind of leaving jurisdictions that are not friendly to go to places like Singapore that are seen as more friendly. Oh, that's really interesting. Yeah. I guess it would be like if, you know, I don't, I don't think Europe has like a super unified policy, but if the different European countries had different policies, then you might see movement. One other thing I wanted

asked was that in a previous episode, Eric Meltzer and W. Wan of primitive ventures were saying that they thought the decentralized networks tended to be, have more kind of like Western founders, I guess, and that there were more like really good projects around infrastructure, like around trading and exchanges and stuff that were coming out of Asia. What do you think of that take? Well, there definitely are projects that, you know, have kind of like a background in Asia. I mean, yeah, I think it's true. Again, I don't know how to quantify that to say like what percentage of these projects are, you know, because it is very decentralized. And sometimes like a country, sometimes a project will have Asian founders, but then they'll be incorporated somewhere else, you know.

But you look at, for example, I mean, you look at, you look at finance, you look at Neo. So, you know, these are some really kind of important players. I mean, you look at, you look at Tron. I don't know, you know, if people have different opinions about Tron. But, you know, these are, these are kind of interesting projects that have, you know, or exchanges that have come, you know, come from Asia. Right. Okay. Well, so let's kind of dive into the different markets within Asia.

And I know that China is, you know, a particular market that you have, you know, special knowledge in. So broadly, how would you describe the industry and the market? there? In China? So I think it's, I would describe it as full of contradictions and very different from how it appears would probably be the easiest way to describe it. So basically, you know, what happened in China, just short history of Chinese crypto markets is that, you know, trade was booming. You know, there was China, Bitcoin trade in China was huge. And then ICOs were also exploding. And then the Chinese authorities got very nervous. And they kind of, you know, they kind of, clamped down on Chinese crypto exchanges, specifically looking at, you know, trading Chinese

currency directly for cryptocurrency. And then they also banned ICOs. And so ever since that point, you know, and then at that time, I think, you know, the price reacted very strongly, the Bitcoin price reacted, but it's, you know, since came back. And I think China is still a vibrant place for, for cryptocurrency. It's just a little bit harder to see. So China, for example, still has a pretty active OTC market. So even though, you know, so you can still trade Chinese currency for cryptocurrency. You just have to do it via an OTC platform. There are still definitely like projects coming out of China. So there are definitely, you know, startups in China. And also the other kind of, I don't know if it's a contradiction, but distinction is that, you know, the Chinese government

may be very wary of cryptocurrency, but they like blockchain. They like blockchain technology. So there's kind of these two things going on where, you know, you kind of have, you know, authority sending positive signals about blockchain, but negative signals about about cryptocurrency. But I think the other important thing to say here is that cryptocurrency, like Bitcoin is not illegal in China, you know, per se. It's trying to crack down on some very specific aspects of the industry. And I think, you know, for example, you know, ICOs. And at the time when China cracked down on ICOs, frankly, almost everybody I spoke to in the Chinese crypto world supported that crack down because they felt that ICOs in China were kind of getting out of control.

There were a lot of frauds and there were a lot of scams and that it was bad for the industry. And so I think that that actually, you know, I've heard a lot of Chinese crypto enthusiasts say that that wasn't actually the wrong decision. Yeah, all the way back when the ban happened, I did an episode with two founders. It was Da Hong Fei and Patrick. just blinking on his last name. Anyway, they were from Neo and Quantum. And they were giving some examples of some of the really, really kind of eyebrow raising ICOs. And one of them was like a business around mooncakes. Yeah. I remember me like, hmm, okay. So yeah, it obviously was getting super, super frothy over there. But then, you know, when you were saying that, like, people can still

trade OTC and stuff, what does that look like? Like, here, OTC, I feel like generally means people who are spending more money where they, or, you know, moving large amounts money where they might be worried about moving the price on an exchange or something. And then obviously you have, maybe, I guess, kind of a local bitcoins model, but, like, what does OTC look like there? So ODC looks like, you know, basically an online platform that sort of matches buyers and sellers, you know. And that's where you can trade Chinese currency directly for cryptocurrency. And then what a lot of what people, what some people in China do is then they will get USDT, tether. And then they will use that to trade on exchanges like finance, you know, or a hobby or something like that.

So, you know, the first step is OTC, you know, kind of getting, like using your Chinese currency there and then getting into, you know, maybe a stable coin like USDT and then using the USDT to trade on one of the larger cryptocurrency exchanges. So even if you're not able to trade directly from from Chinese currency into Bitcoin, you can trade from from USDT into Bitcoin. And that's why USDT is actually quite a big phenomenon in China. It has like a little bit of a different connotation there. Okay, okay, this is really interesting. So basically, it sounds like it is really like a local bitcoins where it's kind of like a Craigslist style, hey, I'm selling for this amount or I'm, you know, I want to purchase at this amount. And then people can match with each other. And then once people get their Bitcoin, then they exchange it for USDT or so or, or I don't know how that works.

It's more like once they get their USDT, then they trade it for Bitcoin. Yeah. So like, where do they, So where do they get that? So basically you can look at some of the OTC platforms as kind of like the on-ramp from like, you know, fiat currency into cryptocurrency. And then once you have USDT, you can trade directly on some of these larger exchanges, you know, finance or or whatever, if that makes sense. Oh, okay. So the initial, the OTC transaction is actually for USDT.

In some cases, yes. I mean, you can, yes, you can use it for other things as well. at least from, you know, that's the, that's the use case that I've heard from some people in China is that, you know, they, they will try to get USDT first and then use the UST on the, you know, the more mainstream exchanges. Interesting. So then for like these Chinese exchanges that, you know, basically still exist, I guess maybe they're not domiciled anymore in China like Waube and OK coin and finance. Do you think it's affected their volumes or it maybe sounds like it really has? It's, I mean, it's so hard to know. I mean, it's kind of, it's another, it's kind of another funny thing. So Binance, for example, you know, was in China. And, and, you know, according to CZ, they, they, they left China before the crackdown because they kind of saw the writing on the wall, you know. And then, you know, from, from then on, like, Binance kind of exploded, right? And it's not, it's not, I don't know if it's necessarily like due to China or in spite of China, but, you know, these exchanges have done really well post China crackdown. I mean, Maybe part of it is because they were sort of forced to go global, you know. But, but yeah, I mean, it hasn't really like, I mean, look at Binance, right? I mean, look at buying.

I mean, you did a great podcast with finance, right? Like, I mean, look at their explosive growth. I mean, a lot of that happened after the crackdown, right? So it definitely didn't hurt them. Yeah. Well, one thing I remember CZ saying is that, you know, with the ICO ban, the different projects were told that they had to refund investors who wanted to be refunded. But because the B&B tokens had risen, nobody wanted to. to give back their B&B tokens. And then on top of that, the exchange had actually done a few

token sales on the platform itself. And so then they offered to refund any investors for those tokens. And I can't remember. I think I'll have to check this, but it was in the single digit millions that they spent on it. And if I remember correctly, I think it was six million that they spent. And they only raised 15 million in their ICO. So it was like kind of, you know, a big, step they were taking, but they felt like they should do that for their customers. And he said that he felt like afterward, then he just like won the loyalty of all these customers. So, you know, it sounds like, because I guess the thing that I was curious about is like, you know, I feel like in the U.S. If there were some kind of ban like this, like, then I don't know if you would still see a ton of

entrepreneurial activity. Like it might kind of attract people who, you. were more of the outlaw type or like, you know, whereas like it, yeah, just I'm curious to know in China, like, are these entrepreneurs more of that type, like the kind who aren't afraid to have a brush with the law or are the entrepreneurs who like are just kind of normal, you know, you know, operating above board type of people who don't feel like they're going to get in trouble? Like, yeah, how does it affect that? Yeah, I think it's a really good observation. And I think you're probably right about, about the US, you know, I mean, in terms of like if something like this happened in the US, I think the reaction would be different. I mean, I think, you know, part of it is again,

you know, there are, China didn't ban cryptocurrency totally, right? So, so, you know, and I think people can kind of see that distinction, you know, like that, you know, if you're a blockchain startup, you're not necessarily doing something shady. You know, China is, is, is worried about some very specific things like using ICOs for public fundraising, right? So, so, you know, it's kind of clear what they're concerned about. But, yeah, Yeah, I mean, you could say that, like, they are sending a signal that this industry is not particularly liked. But again, it's a conflicted signal because sometimes they don't seem to be sending that. But I think, you know, the larger message here is that, you know, entrepreneurs in China, I think, are just kind of used to restrictions, you know?

I mean, China bans a lot of things. And, you know, I mean, if you look at, if you look at the Internet, for example, right? I mean, there are so many restrictions on the Internet in China. This is like a fact. And yet, you know, what's happening in the Internet in China is kind of amazing, right? I mean, it's still an amazing industry. I mean, in some ways, you know, like if you look at WeChat and just how incredible a product that is, you know, and that was born in a very, very, very restricted environment, you know. So I'm not, you know, praising Chinese restrictions, but I'm saying that I think, you know, entrepreneurs there, they just, they, they, they know how to work around them, you know, and find, and find, and,

find kind of like the glimmers of opportunity in a very restricted environment. And I think cryptocurrency is very much the same way. I want to learn more about that in a moment. But first, a quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible. Will the world follow France and advocate banning privacy coins? Will government-backed stable coins become the new fiat? Are distributed and peer-to-peer exchanges just a flash in the pan? The answer is maybe. Virtual currencies can flourish and create a new, private, and more versatile economy. But that grand vision can't happen without keeping crypto clean. And that requires support of governments and accountability for bad actors.

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With crypto. Not only can you spend your crypto, but you can grow it too. Earn up to 8% per year on the most popular coins like BTC, ETH, XRP, and up to 12% per year on stable coins like Pax or TUSD. Just a few tasks before you start receiving interest every week. Join the over 1 million others and download the crypto.com app today. Back to my conversation with Emily Parker of Longhash. So you mentioned right before the commercial break that you see some parallels to the book that you wrote, which I'll just read out the title for people,

Now I know who my comrades are, voices from the Internet underground. And as you mentioned, it talks about how the Internet is changing. life in China, Cuba, and Russia. So what parallels are you seeing to the development of crypto and the Internet in China? Yeah. So that's, I mean, that very question is exactly what got me interested in cryptocurrency. It was kind of like, are there parallels here? And I think there are a lot of parallels in the way that the Internet and cryptocurrency are developing in China. I mean, I think, you know, the biggest parallel on the most macro level is that, you know, these are two examples of a decentralized technology that is very difficult for governments to control.

This is true of the Internet and this is true of Bitcoin, you know. And I think with the Internet, you know, there are a lot of opinions about the Internet in China. I think right now a lot of people in the West are, you know, see it in a very negative light. Oh, it's so censored. It's so restricted. Nothing is happening there. I don't really agree with that. I mean, I think, yes, there is a lot of censorship, but I also think that there is also a lot of innovation and there's a lot happening on the Chinese internet and there's a lot more happening there than ever would have happened in the period before the internet. And I think the internet in China has had a huge impact on just like a lot of people's individual lives. So the other thing about the internet, and I've sort of been

saying this for years and I continue to say this, despite censorship, despite restrictions, it is just not possible for any government really to completely control the flow of information on the internet. It's just not, it's a decentralized phenomenon and it's just not possible to completely shut it down. And I think that's very true of cryptocurrency as well, you know, and I think, I don't think the Chinese government attempted to completely shut down cryptocurrency, but even if they had, I think it would be incredibly difficult, you know. So I think what in some ways you can also compare kind of the way that authorities look at the internet and look at crypto. I think in both cases, you know, for example, Facebook, Twitter, these

are all blocked in China, but, you know, with a little bit of effort, you can get to them. It's not, like, so hard. I mean, you, you have a, you get a virtual private network or whatever, but I think what the goal was, was to kind of, like, raise the barrier to entry, right? It wasn't to, like, completely snuff all these things out. It was to say, like, okay, it's, we're just going to make it a little bit harder for you to, to, to do this. And the same, it's, the same holds true for, for cryptocurrency. It's not like China was saying, we don't, you know, we want to get rid of Bitcoin entirely. They were just, they were raising, the threshold. You know, they were saying like, okay, if you want to like, you need to kind of know a little more,

you need to make a little bit more of an effort because it was kind of at the point where like just anybody was kind of getting involved in this market. So I think in both cases, you know, in China, if you want to go, you know, see Twitter. If you want to go trade Bitcoin, you can, but it's just a little bit harder. You know, you kind of have to try a little bit harder. So, but I think, you know, it's just a, it's a very interesting phenomenon because I think, you know, when China crack down on, on cryptocurrency or on exchanges, in ICOs specifically. You know, there was kind of this feeling like, okay, is this is this is this is this is this is this

the end game, you know, like Bitcoin in theory, right, is supposed to be able to survive any kind of government repression. But China was so important. I mean, China was such an important market. And I think there were questions at the time like can Bitcoin survive this, you know? And not only did Bitcoin survive. I mean, it thrived, right? I mean, that was kind of like we kind of entered a bull market, you know.

So, so I think that was just sort of like a really strong example of. like no government can kind of no government can kill Bitcoin. No one government can kill Bitcoin, you know, and I think that's true of the internet as well. Yeah, I wonder. And, you know, like actually, yeah, let me not ask the question that way. I was going to like ascribe some kind of intention to the Chinese government. But let me just ask in general, you know, obviously the PBOC, the People's Bank of China is going to be releasing its own digital currency. So what impact do you think that will have on interest in crypto in China? You know, it could go either way.

I think it's a very similar conversation as to the one we're having about Libra, right? So, I mean, I think there are people who would say, oh, you know, this is bad for Bitcoin. It's going to kind of like replace it. But then, you know, there's the other side saying, well, not necessarily because, you know, just it might actually increase interest in cryptocurrency, increased awareness of digital currency. And also, I mean, I think it's. this is my personal opinion. I mean, I think this is going to be such a different animal that I don't think, you know, someone who's inclined to use Bitcoin is not going to be like easily persuaded to use this instead, you know, and you could, you could even argue that it will make the case stronger for a cryptocurrency like Bitcoin because, you know, Bitcoin is is is not controlled by a government. It is decentralized. It has more privacy, you know, so I think it's just like a completely different beast. I wonder if it's going to drive interest in tether in China even higher.

So, you know, that's interesting. So we had a writer for Longhash wrote about this and he just, you know, kind of mentioned it. And he had actually, he actually had a different interpretation. He said, well, maybe it will be good because maybe it will be used instead of tether. Maybe it will be, maybe that will be the on-ramp. I mean, who knows, you know, but he seemed to think that maybe it would become an alternative. So, but who knows, right? I mean, there's still so much we don't know about this.

And you just know, I mean, I really think it's very similar to Libro, right? Like how how we'll play out is really anyone's guess. But I don't understand. I mean, like, if they're currently banned from trading rem and B into Bitcoin, then why would, I just feel like then the government's incentive to allow people to turn rem and B into tether, which people know, which the government would have to know is being used by Bitcoin that like I just feel like the likelihood that they're going to allow people to do that is low. But I know nothing about the Chinese government. You know way more than I do. So well,

I think it's I mean anybody who would have expected any of this, you know, so I really, I just really feel like it's it's anyone's guess. I think how that's going to play out is is just impossible to predict. I think it's going to have a lot of interesting, interesting uses. But I it's it's it's really hard to know. All right. Well, let's turn to Japan. Obviously, that's also a market you know really well. In Japan, they suffered the largest crypto hack or at crypto exchange hack of $500 million at Coincheck back in early 2018. And then obviously before that, there was Mount Cox.

So what is the atmosphere there like now? Yeah. So Japan is real. I mean, even in, again, like two years, I think Japan has undergone several different cycles. So, you know, when China initially kind of started cracking down, You know, a lot of that energy went to Japan for sure. I mean, we kind of saw that. There were reports about that.

I mean, Japan, it was like, this is Japan's chance, right? This is Japan is going to become the new crypto paradise. And, oh, Japan was already heading in that direction. I mean, A, you know, there is a really strong. I spend a lot of time in Tokyo. There's a very strong kind of crypto community there. You know, there's Mount Gok's, they have a long history. There's, you know, Satoshi Nakamoto has a Japanese name.

We know, whether whether he or she is Japanese or not is a whole other question. But, yeah, Japan has kind of a long, relatively long affiliation with cryptocurrency. And I think, you know, at least the impression I had, you know, in 2017 was that, you know, the Japanese policymakers were kind of saw cryptocurrency as an opportunity. They saw it as an opportunity because, you know, FX trading is very strong in Japan. I think, you know, a lot of those people are interested in crypto. I think even, you know, I think there were even some people who thought like, okay, maybe this will be good for the economy. You know, Japan had been battling, you know, deflation and economic stagnancy for a very long time. And I think there were some people who were like, maybe, you know, what do we have to lose?

Like, let's try this. You know, like, let's see if like, you know, this will stimulate consumption. This will be kind of like a break for us. You know, I think there was a little bit of that attitude. I think also Japan, you know, was thinking like, okay, let's, this is maybe our chance to become a fintech capital to attract startups here. So that was the mood that I was picking up kind of in, in, in, in 2017, of like, oh, this is kind of exciting. You know, just the visuals, you know, you would go to, I think it was in Shibuya and there was this huge Bitcoin ad and you'd see them on the subways. I mean, it just, it felt like, and especially compared to China, right?

It was like, okay, this is, this is, this is totally different, right? You know, Japan is sending the signal of like, we don't like this. And Japan is like putting up billboards and, I mean, private companies are putting up billboards. Anyway, so that was the mood. And then, as you just said, early 2018, coin check is hacked, largest crypto exchange hack in history, over $500 million. And then, like, basically things kind of ground to a halt. And I think this is one of those things that I don't know if that translated so clearly here in the United States. Like, I don't know if people really knew that because I felt like even after that happened, people were still kind of describing Japan as like a crypto paradise.

But, like, after that, it definitely was not. I think policymakers were super freaked out. And all of the sudden, you know, exchanges had to undergo like a much more rigorous process. There were like a lot of inspections. It became very difficult to get a new coin listed in Japan. I think it was like, you know, from that hack, it was like at least 18 months, you know, for a new coin to be listed. So the mood in Japan after that hack was pretty dark. You know, I think like the media, which had been kind of positive about cryptocurrency, you know,

kind of became a lot more muted. And I think, yeah, I think just average, you know, ordinary Japanese people were more likely to see crypto as something that's like shady and, and associated with, you know, criminal activity or, or hacks. So that, that's been the mood in Japan. And I think recently, you know, we're starting to see a little bit of a thaw. And I think, you know, I'm sensing a little bit more of optimism that, like, you know, the regulators will kind of loosen up and that, you know, there will, there will be more activity in Japan. But yeah, that, that there was a very big, big changes in Japan over the past two years. But, you know, for example, coin check, when they were hacked, they were operating under a provisional license. And then they finally got like an actual license.

So there has been some progress. And now they're, you know, one of the biggest exchanges in Japan. In Japan, you know, if you look at, at least according to some data, if you look at which national currency is most traded against Bitcoin, you know, number one is the US dollar. And number two is the Japanese yen. So, you know, it's still a pretty big, important market there. So I don't know. I mean, I think, again, this could go either way. I mean, Japan definitely had a tightening, but they were also, like, very ahead of the curve, you know, on the regulatory front, like early on.

And so the question is, is, like, is this tightening just going to lead them to a better place where exchanges are more secure or are they going to kind of go overboard? And I think, like, I'd say the mood in Tokyo now is cautiously optimistic. That's so, so we'll see. But it hasn't been very friendly for the past, you know, past year or two. And what about the entrepreneurs in Japan? Like, you know, what you were discussing is kind of around the trading and the acceptance

of Bitcoin, you know, as a national currency. But like, are you seeing that entrepreneurs there are kind of like interested in getting into the space and building stuff? Yeah, I think they definitely are. I mean, and this is something like, you know, our incubator, that's kind of what one of the things we do is try to help people get into the, you know, the Japanese crypto space. But, you know, I think it's, again, it's a bit of a, it's a little bit slow. I mean, I think Japan still has a little bit of like a big company culture.

I think that's changing for sure. But, you know, I think that that's not necessarily as much of a crypto phenomenon as like a startup phenomenon, you know. But yeah, I think you are, I mean, I think just in Japan and Tokyo, I mean, I've been going back and forth to Japan for so many years. And I think, like, the crypto environment there is is vibrant. I mean, there's definitely a lot of meetups. You meet a lot of startups, you know, but I do think like that there were people. who were, you know, freaked out or alarmed by the regulatory crackdown and just the difficulty, for example, of listing a coin on a Japanese exchange. So I think, like, over the short term, some people probably

have shied away from the Japanese market, but, you know, they could come back. So, so, yeah, I think, you know, again, cautious, cautious optimism about the Japanese market. And we kind of briefly touched on Singapore earlier when you were contrasting it with the regulatory climate here in the U.S. but I was curious to know, you know, as we mentioned, Singapore is kind of a small country, somewhat small market. So like what kind of activity are you seeing there? Is it literally just people being like, hey, this is a place where we can experiment? So is it just like a lot of entrepreneurs or like who's going there and, you know, what are they doing?

Well, so as we saw like there were definitely like a lot of ICOs there. Definitely companies, you know, registering there. I mean, it's not uncommon where you see some company where they're in some, whatever, country and then you look at their, you see that they're actually registered in Singapore. You know, you see that a lot. That's been going on for a while. You know, I think just, yeah, people who are kind of like building companies, moving there, all sorts of activity happening. I mean, it just feels like, I mean, just even just on the conference level, it feels like there's, there's conferences, you know, I mean, there's

blockchain conferences everywhere, every second, but in Singapore, it feels like, you know, there's constantly something happening there, you know. So, yeah, I mean, Singapore, just when you go there, you really feel that there's like a lot of, a lot of momentum. And I think in general, you know, Singapore is kind of seen as like, you know, kind of welcoming to innovation. I think the regulators in Singapore, you know, you hear them talked about as being kind of like,

you know, relatively welcoming, relatively open. You can kind of talk to them. And also compared to the United States, the regulations are, you described, as relatively clear. At least I've heard them described that way by the SEC and others. So basically, it sounds like we might, I continue to see sort of the ICU trend just live on in a place like Singapore or something like that.

Or the IEO trend. Yeah. Change the letters. And, you know, you did say earlier that Korea isn't like, you know, one of your main areas of focus. But since you are in Asia a lot, I just wondered, you know, kind of what do you hear about what's going on in Korea and what that part of the crypto scene looks like? Yeah, I mean, I guess my main impression of Korea, and I'm hesitant to riff on Korea only because I know sometimes these countries are so much more complicated than they look. So my impressions are fairly superficial. But my impression of Korea is just that, yeah, I mean, it's a classic case of, you know, a real boom. I mean, there's like a real, you know, it's a huge, it's a huge market. There was a huge boom there. You know, a lot of people lost money, you know. And I think the authorities got very nervous. about that, you know? So, so I think, you know, there's, there's definitely that tension in Korea where, you know, the government is, is understandably concerned about, you know, speculation, getting, getting out of control. But, yeah, it's, again, I don't, I don't want to kind of speculate too much

about Korea because people know much more about it than I do. Yeah, I could imagine so many people lost money there because not only was it that so many people in Korea were buying during the latter half of 2017 when, you know, the fever was at its pitch. But then on top of that, there was the kimchi premium. So they were already paying like higher than normal prices. Yeah. And I mean, the one thing I do remember, you know, noticing about Korea was that, you know, again, and kind of like after the sort of, you know, the Chinese crackdown, Korea was definitely sending mixed signals about like what their attitude towards cryptocurrency could be. And there was a lot of confusion there about like, you know, if these exchanges would be allowed to, to thrive or not. So, you know,

I think there's some, yeah, there was definitely a lack of clarity, at least coming from them initially. I don't know if that's still the case. And then you did mention that one of your other offices is in Hong Kong. You know, what are your observations about the crypto scene there? Yeah, it's funny. I just, you know, I was asking a friend the other day about it. And we had a piece on Longhash about Hong Kong, which was basically the basic argument was, you know, Hong Kong is doing nothing on crypto regulation and it's great.

You know, basically saying Hong Kong was pretty much hands off. And that's been great for crypto there. Again, you know, what's happening in Hong Kong now is kind of overshadowed by just all these other things that are happening in Hong Kong. So, you know, I think there's like, so it's kind of hard to talk about anything. I don't really know the status of anything in Hong Kong right now. But yeah, that was at least, you know, something that that was the, that was kind of how we covered it. is Hong Kong being, you know, pretty hands-off and how that was a good thing? I mean, obviously compared to mainland China, that's a very, very different approach.

Yeah, which is basically why I think people in that country are having trouble. And it's totally understandable why maybe the status of the crypto industry there is like, you know, like on hold right now. because I think they're busy doing other things, have much more important priorities. Yes, that's exactly right. I actually asked a friend in Hong Kong just recently, kind of, you know, oh, so what's the status of cryptocurrency there? And his attitude was kind of like, really like, we have so many other concerns right now. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, well, it's sad. I really sympathize with them a lot. But speaking of which, so like one of the drivers of interest in

crypto here, at least in the U.S., and I think. think some of the other places in the West is this principle of decentralization, which obviously brings with it the inability for others to censor or surveil your transactions, or maybe not the inability always, but at least on the surveillance side, but, you know, it makes it difficult. And so obviously, I mean, I, you know, I don't know a ton about it, but, you know, obviously I do know that the stereotype at least or the common observation is that the villain, you know, that has a poor track record on these issues as the Chinese government. So I was just curious to know, like, are concerns like that around decentralization or censorship

or whatever or surveillance? Do those drive the Chinese at all? Like, are they kind of like unhappy about having their transactions surveilled on like Ali pay and stuff? You know, it's always so hard to speak generally about what's motivating anyone in China, just A, because they're, There's so many people and B, you know, there's not like a lot of like public opinion polling on this kind of thing, you know. So I can only really talk about like people I've, you know, spoken to or, you know, kind of my very anecdotal impression. I think, you know, look, I think there are plenty of people in China who are trading Bitcoin because they like Bitcoin and they like cryptocurrency. And I don't think they're thinking about more than that, right? I mean, I mean, I think they're just just trading it the way anybody else would trade it.

But of course. Like to make money, I mean. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because they, you know, to make money or to whatever reason, but not. necessarily out of some larger mission. You know, I think that's true all over the world, right? But, you know, yeah, I do think like, I mean, whether or not people are thinking of Bitcoin specifically as, you know, okay, this is like an indirect opposition to some kind

of regime or, you know, I don't know if they're thinking about it that way, but I do think like Bitcoin by its very nature, you know, it's, it's a, it's a currency that's not tied to, you know, that's not controlled by a bank, that's not controlled by the government. It is a way, it is a way of asserting your independence from the system, you know, to a certain degree. And like how much, I mean, I think some people probably think about that a lot. You know, maybe people think like, okay, my money is safer here, you know, because like, it's can't, my bank account can't be frozen and they can, you know, they can't just like take it away. I mean, I think there's, you know, maybe some people that think that way.

Again, I don't know how directly people make this connection, but I do think there is this idea that, yes, like, Bitcoin is, it's a form of independence. And in that sense, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a form of, yeah, it's a form of asserting your, your autonomy from, from the system, you know, and I do think people are, I think people are very aware of that, for sure. Right. I mean, I guess my question is just a little bit more like, you know, here I feel like one of the, um, kind of main populations, I guess is the word or it's just, yeah, amongst the different groups that are really interested in Bitcoin, one of the ones, you know, maybe that I would call out is like this libertarian type crowd, where, you know, which is a little bit against, you know, government

involvement. And so, but I just wondered, was that like a noticeable segment of the, you know, Bitcoin enthusiasts in China? They definitely exist for sure. They're, you know, there are definitely like, you know, crypto thought leaders in China who think this way, you know, that, that yes, like this is a kind of a, like this this technology that yeah i mean again grants them a kind of like independence from the system and they're thinking about that in a political way how widespread that way of thinking is i i i'm not sure you know but i've heard it i've definitely seen it and i've heard it um it's just hard to know the scale of it and and you know if if most people are thinking that way i i don't know okay oh interesting so then here we have libra potentially uh also being released if that goes through

What impact do you think that we'll have on the crypto scene in Asia? And do you think it'll be competitive with the PBOC digital currency? Well, I mean, you know, it seems like China's super aware of Libra. And it seems like that's part of their motivation, you know, for this digital currency, right? That they, you know, I think they're more concerned about Libra accelerating dollarization, you know, and I think that's part. So who knows, right? I mean, I think Libra, again, it's this really open question of whether Libra will kind of, you know, serve as like. like some sort of replacement to cryptocurrency, which I don't really think it will, or if it will actually like stimulate and accelerate interest in cryptocurrency like Bitcoin, which I think is actually sometimes I think that's that's more likely. But how will play out in Asia? I mean, China's made it very clear that they have concerns about it, you know, for sure. So yeah, I mean, and I think, I think that's what's, in part, what's what's driving them. And throughout this conversation, we've been talking about Bitcoin a lot. But obviously, we have kind of.

of all of these smart contract platforms that are, well, there's obviously Ethereum, which is dominant currently. And then there's a whole bunch of others that are trying to launch and maybe compete with Ethereum. And I wondered what your observations are about interest in smart contract platforms in China or elsewhere in Asia and kind of like what perceptions you have about which one of these is sort of like gaining more interest. Yeah. So I think like, I mean, Just in general, I mean, I think that's a good question about Bitcoin versus just like all the other, you know, coins out there. You know, I think it definitely, there's definitely different projects that are seen differently across the region. I mean, you definitely do still hear about Ethereum.

I mean, interestingly, I mean, this is kind of a different example, but like Gavin Wood, who's co-founder of Ethereum and now is working on Pocod. And he's, you know, Pocod has done some work with Longhash. And Pocodot, Gavin has been in, you know, doing a lot of outreach in Asia. And one of the things he said, you know, I saw him when he was in Shanghai. And I was kind of asking him his impressions of Shanghai. And he was saying that, you know, this is like the Chinese sort of grassroots environment was like really, really vibrant. And he seemed very impressed by kind of like the crypto culture that he was seeing there, you know. So it's interesting.

I mean, I think like, I don't know, just in terms of other coins. I mean, yeah, I think there's, it depends a lot, you know, region to region. You hear a lot about like XRP, for example, in, in Tokyo. I know it's a little different from the question you're asking, but yeah, I mean, in terms of like the ex-bitcoin, you know, I mean, it's there, yeah, there's definitely, there's a pretty, that's also very dynamic, I think, in terms of like what coins people are looking. And I know that Ethereum specifically was quite hot in Korea for a while. I think partly, you know, that at least was in part due to the fact that, you know, I think Vatelic himself had done some outreach there. But yeah, it's a constantly, constantly shifting landscape. Yeah, yeah.

I think Vatelic spends a lot of time in Asia, although maybe a little bit less than he once did. So then my last question for you is just about actually the other half of the business, which you didn't really talk about a lot. But I was just curious to know more generally about the kinds of companies or products. that Longhash invests in and, you know, how separate that is from your media property. Yeah. So it is separate in the, it's so philosophically, it's united in the sense that we'd see both as like a gateway to Asia and, you know, our mission is united. But I think, but technically speaking, they are separate in the sense that we don't use the media platform to promote the projects. I mean, we try to keep them separate just so that the media platform has kind of like

independence because otherwise it would be seen as like PR and we really try to avoid doing that. So they're separate in that sense. I think, you know, and also our offices are, you know, it's a decentralized organization. So, for example, like Singapore and Tokyo, Singapore and Japan have slightly different approaches. You know, in Singapore, you know, Singapore invests in and incubates early stage blockchain companies, kind of like highly technical blockchain companies, pretty wide range. You know, they put money in exchange for equity and our tokens. And then Singapore also has a 12-week program for like mentorship.

and strategy and fundraising and, you know, most important kind of like helping them break into the Asia market. Japan is a little bit different. Japan also helps kind of startups with with BD in Asia, or BD in Japan specifically, but also works with larger Japanese companies and kind of helping, like, you know, who are interested in blockchain and connecting them with startups who are developing blockchain applications. So the two offices are a little bit different. But again, the general approach, is all like, you know, because Asia is a, I mean, you know, as you can see from this conversation, it's a confusing market. All the, you know, different countries have different regulations. They have different approaches and it can be kind of hard to go in there if you don't know

what you're doing and if you don't know kind of like who to deal with. Yeah, yeah, for sure. They sound really different. Yeah, they sound really different. And again, constantly, constantly changing. And I think there's also a trust question, right? I mean, you know, which is true in crypto everywhere, right? it's like you just don't want to get involved with people who aren't trustworthy, right? Or anywhere. This is true anywhere. But I think when you're going into a new market, you know, you just want to make sure you have the right partners.

Yeah. I actually thought of one more question. It's a fun one. You guys recently came out with that deck of cards that had, yeah, different crypto people. I know. And disclosure, you did give me a deck, which I was like so grateful for. It's super fun to flip through. So how did you guys come up with that idea? And like, why are you not selling those packs?

Yeah. I mean, you know, we really, this might not sound true, but it really, it really was just for fun. You know, there had been, it was just like, it was just kind of like a fun thing we wanted to do. It's not supposed to be that serious, you know, it's like, it's not supposed to be like, okay, these are like the best people in blockchain. Of course it's not. It's just kind of like, these are sort of, you know, it's very subjective. Just kind of like, it was really, it was really, really, it was really just for fun. It's like, let's just make a deck of cards. You know, we put a wide range of people on there. Some of those people are not very like, that's okay. It was more like, here are some people that are like making noise in the

blockchain industry. And here's a deck of cards with their faces on it. And we know, we just put a lot of time into kind of making them sort of, I think they look cool. And, you know, it's a deck of cards. It's kind of like a collector's item. It's like a, you know, just a, it really, there wasn't any very like high purpose to doing it. I mean, you just sort of like to just kind of capture, let's say to capture a moment in time. That's what we're trying to do. I love it. I love it. They're so great. All right. Well, where can people learn more about you and Longhash? Well, very easy, longhash.com. That's where, that's our data media site. And yeah, I think that is a good place. And then you can also learn about, I mean, you can go, you can also go

to incubator. longhash.com. So longhash.com is just for the data. media platform and incubator. longhash.com is more information about the incubators. Okay, great. Thanks so much for coming on Unchained. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks so much for joining us today. To learn more about Emily and Longhash, check up the show notes inside your podcast player. If you're not yet subscribed to my other podcast, Unconfirmed, which is shorter and a bit newsier, be sure to check that out. Also, find out what I think are the top crypto stories each week by signing up from my email newsletter at Unchainedpodcast.com. Unchained is produced. by me, Laura Shin, with help from Facto McCorny, Anthony Youne, Daniel Nuss, Rich

Traffolino, and Josh Durham. Thanks for listening.