Unchained - Crypto's Gender Disparity: What Can Be Done About It? 4 Women Weigh In - Ep.234

Episode Date: May 4, 2021

Crypto sits at the intersection of two male-dominated industries: tech and finance. I was asked to moderate a panel for the Amber Group with four leading women in crypto to discuss the role of gender in the crypto industry and what can be done to bring more women into the space. Panelists include Mia Deng, partner at Dragonfly Capital; Amy Zhang, vice president of sales at Fireblocks; Alexis Gauba, cofounder at Opyn; and Annabelle Huang, partner at Amber Group. Show highlights: how each panelist got into crypto, what it is they do, and which company they work for why women have been somewhat reluctant to speak on crypto gender disparity in public what the main obstacles to bringing about better gender diversity in crypto whether the crypto space is harder to break into than traditional finance for women how gender issues in the U.S. are different than in Asia why more women have begun trading cryptocurrencies and how to increase that interest which crypto explanations are most effective for female friends why there are so few female crypto co-founders good hiring practices for bringing more women into the space advice for women trying to break into crypto    Thank you to our sponsors! E&Y: https://ey.com/globalblockchainsummit  Crypto.com: https://crypto.onelink.me/J9Lg/unchainedcardearnfeb2  Kyber Network: Dmm.exchange    Episode Links   Panelists Mia Deng Crypto career cofounder at TR Lab ---- NFT Platform (2021) partner at Dragonfly Capital - https://medium.com/dragonfly-research  Head of biz Development + Venture partner @ Amber Group - https://www.ambergroup.io/about  Social link https://twitter.com/miagegedeng?lang=en   Amy Zhang Crypto career vice president of sales at Fireblocks - https://www.fireblocks.com/  head of sales/investor relations at Diginex - https://www.diginex.com/  Social link https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyzwzhang/?originalSubdomain=hk    Alexis Gauba Crypto career cofounder at Opyn - https://www.opyn.co/#/  cofounder at she256 - https://she256.org/  Social link https://twitter.com/AlexisGauba   Annabelle Huang Crypto career partner at Amber Group  - https://www.ambergroup.io/about  founding member at KeeperDAO - https://twitter.com/Keeper_DAO  risk lead at AirSwap - https://www.airswap.io/  Social Link https://twitter.com/_annabellehuang?lang=en Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi everyone. Welcome to Unchained, your no hype resource for all things crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin, a journalist with over two decades of experience. I started covering crypto six years ago and as a senior editor at Forbes was the first mainstream media reporter to cover cryptocurrency full-time. Follow Unchained on Twitter at Unchained underscore Pod, where you can find all sorts of content ranging from my weekly newsletter to updates on my upcoming book and a whole lot more. Today's episode is a panel I moderated for Amber Group on Power Women in Crypto. The four speakers are executives in crypto who are happy to discuss the role of gender in the industry, what explanations are most effective for bringing in women, good hiring practices for bringing more women into the industry, and more. Panelists include Mia Dang, a partner at Dragonfly Capital, Amy Zhang, Vice President of Sales at Fireblocks, Alexis Galba, founder at Open, and Annabel Huang, partner in Amber Group. For those of you watching on video, you may notice we're all wearing white. The organizers asked us to wear white as a symbol of inclusiveness across traditional finance and crypto.

No matter where you're listening, this panel was an extremely interesting discussion on a subject that many women in the industry speak about privately but not openly. I hope you enjoy it. Now on to the show. Today's episode is sponsored by EY Blockchain. Ernst & Young is committed to supporting integration of the world's business ecosystems on the public Ethereum blockchain. The Crypto.com app lets you buy, earn, and spend crypto, all in one place. Earn up to 8.5% interest on your Bitcoin and 14% interest on your stable coins.

Paid weekly. Download the Crypto.com app and get $25 with the code, Laura. The link is in the description. Khyper's Dynamic Marketmaker, DMM, is the first, Defi Protocol designed to adapt to market conditions to optimize fees, maximize returns, and enable extremely high capital efficiency for liquidity providers. Hi, everyone. Welcome to this panel put on by the Amber Group, Power Women of the Next Generation, from traditional finance to crypto.

We have four different panelists here, and we're going to start with each of them telling us how we got into crypto and what their company does and what it is that they do. And Amy Zhang, why don't we start with you? Great. Well, hi, everyone. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm super excited to share about our experiences and talk about women in crypto. My name's Amy. I run sales for Fireblocks in Asia. Fireblocks is a technology company that provide secure digital asset transfer infrastructure and custom infrastructure for over 250 clients, from crypto hedge funds to OTC desks to exchanges,

You know, most recently we were a technology provider selected for some of the larger banks in the industry as well. So really, my goal, I fireblock, is to drive revenue for us in the APEC region, establish relationships with partners and deliver products to allow them to continue to build a bigger business in the digital asset space. Before fireblocks, I ran sales for a company called DGNX. That was my first role in crypto, starting in 2018 and late 27, 2018. And at DGNX, I helped them to grow their exchange, trading, custody, fund-to-funds business. Prior to that, and my foray into crypto, I used to be a sales trader at Deutsche Bank, where I serviced institutional clients, right?

And really my kind of move and foray into crypto started when I, I was at Deutsche and I looked at, you know, my colleagues and, you know, looked at where they were. And I thought to myself, you know, I didn't want to be any of them 10 years from now. So I went out and ventured out into looking for new opportunities. And crypto became one of the industries that redraw my intention. So, and the rest was history. Great. And we also have Annabel Huang.

Yeah, sure. I'm very, again, very happy to be here as well. And being able to chat with a lot of my old friends. I knew Amy from Deutsche Bank, who were the same mirror analyst, and also Miesh, who was at Amber, and now one of our investors. And then a lot of the new friends I've made, so very glad to be here with you guys. Hi, my name is Annabel Huang. I am a partner at Amber Group.

We're a global leading crypto finance service provider, servicing institutional and individual clients globally. We help our clients buy and sell crypto. They have borough lending needs, the asset management needs in crypto. We help them across basically all of the crypto finance needs. We service a lot of the crypto-native funds and institutions, as well as a lot of the people who are new to crypto, especially after this full cycle this year.

So it's been a very fun ride. Before Amber, I was at AirSwap, It's a decentralized exchange built on Ethereum, and that was my first foray into crypto. That was in 2018, I was at Nomura, where similar to Deutsche, I was doing FX and rates structuring-related roles, and that's where I met a few of my Carnegie Mellon alums in New York, and they were telling me about this decentralized finance and how we're able to really ultimately a lot of the processes that we've seen in traditional finance into a smart contract on this new public chain. And that to me is really marrying finance with technology and really

revolutionize finance as we know it. So, you know, decided to give it a shot and just, you know, cannot turn back ever since. And Mia, we have Mia Ding as well. Hey, everyone. It's awesome to be here. I'm Mia, and I'm a partner at Dragonfly. We're a global crypto venture funds with presence in Asia and the States. And Dragonfly invest across the, you know, sectors in crypto. So we have, you know, centralized financial infrastructure, like companies like Amber. And Open is also a defy, a big focus area is ours. And, you know, deep tech and NFTs.

So, and I particularly head up our investments in Asia with a focus in China. And before Dragonfly, I was a founding member at Amber, joined them when there are six people in Hong Kong and Xinjiang. And that was my forward into Asia's crypto and landscape and really saw how that connects to the broader crypto market. And the founding thesis of Dragonfly is that crypto is a market global from day one. And we need have deep understanding of both East was and that's how Dragonfly comes in the middle. And then, yeah, before crypto, I was actually come from a tech background. I was a product manager at MoBike, which is this bike chair, unicorn company in China. And I think that experience taught me how, but internet companies,

the room left for innovation is actually quite limited. They actually, the incumbents, like the giants kind of controls the user data and crypto seems like the perfect way to turn that around. Great. And finally, Alexis Goppa. Hey, I'm Alexis. I'm excited to be here. So I'm the co-founder of Open. We are building a decentralized options platform on Ethereum. So for the first time, anyone anywhere can create or trade an option on any ERC 20. I've just been super excited about crypto and D5 for a while now. and very thrilled to be in the space. Kind of before Open, I was studying at UC Berkeley

and then dropped out of school to do Open. But while I was at Cal also started C256, which is a 501C3 nonprofit, focused on diversity in crypto. And that's been absolutely amazing to work on as well. It honestly just started as a conference and seeing the response of the community was incredible. And since then, we've built it into a full nonprofit

and we have a mentorship program that's matched over 900 people from over 40 countries, which has been really cool. We're working on some studies to capture tangible data on diversity, inclusion in the space, and a lot more initiatives. So very excited to be here and excited about everything that's happening in space right now. Great. So when the organizer for this reached out to me about this panel, I was excited to do it because for years now, I have been in these different chat groups and does.

discussion rooms, Slack rooms for women in crypto. And they have a lot to say on this topic, actually. But surprisingly, if I would try to do a show on it or write the article on it or whatever, people generally wouldn't actually really want to discuss it publicly. So I was curious to know why it is that you all were willing to do so. And, you know, whether or not you thought it was a good thing to discuss it, publicly, or, you know, I think in the case of a lot of these other women that declined, many of them would rather only talk about their work. So, yeah, just what is your perspective

on that issue? I guess I can go first here, right? I think a lot of times, you know, when you're working in an industry that might be perhaps male-dominated, you want people to be the focus on your work and remove the focus on you being a woman because you want to call attention to it. You want to be treated equally, right? So as such, you really push for, you know, valuing my work, but really, I think a lot of times you do want to talk and speak out about it because there are perhaps inequality in certain industries when it comes to being a woman in the workforce. And we have unique challenges that we want to be able to share and communicate with each other. Yeah, I shared the same feeling. I think, I guess both of us came from

traditional finance space as well, and that was a very white male dominated scene. And when I first joined, I almost felt the need to blend in, you know, to be a bro and not to, so that I could be treated equally. On the structuring desk in New York, there was just me. My former MD probably, I never had a woman on his team before, so he didn't really know even how to deal with me almost. He's like, can't I, like, can I just tell you as it is? I'm like, yes, yes, we're all professional, you know, people here. And so I think there's a little bit of that. And sometimes I even feel like, oh, maybe we shouldn't. There are a lot of women in crypto chats. And then I feel like there

are a lot of issues that we feel strongly about, at least when we talk to each other. And And it always is finding so inspiring to get a group of women together and talk about the work we do. And it's just inspiring because there are not that many of us in the space. But then there is the fear of us, you know, perhaps making it as a way to call attention to ourselves or to get any unfair advantage. But I really don't think it is. I think it's just opening up a platform for us to chat together and hopefully encouraging more women to come. So we have a community, just as a lot of the men would have their, you know, fraternity organizations of the likes and finance.

Yeah, I mean, I was just add on to that. I mean, like, crypto is like intersection of tech and finance. So it's too super like male dominant industry. So you get crypto, which is like even more. And I think the rationale for me is quite straightforward. I think if we are, like, if we hold of thesis that crypto is going to be adopted by the entire humanity, and it's 50-50, you know, split by men and women. And in the process of designing this tech and really getting a mainstream adoption, we need that representation.

Like, and I think right now that representation is heavily skewed and I think that we carry that mission to, at least to balance it out a little bit. And Alexis, as the founder of Sheethe, 56, do you have thoughts as well? No, absolutely. I think jumping off of what everyone already said, you know, our goal for crypto is for it to serve the whole population and how can we serve the whole population if the people building aren't representative of the people we are to serve. So I think it's incredibly important and, you know, to get more people in the space. And I think it is inspiring to see that other people have done it before and that they're

there are like, you know, real, real struggles or real difficulties, but everyone is focused on getting through it. Everyone here is, like, incredible at what they do and focused on their work, but at the same time is also open to having these conversations and bringing people in. And so I think that is really important. And so what would you say are the main issues when it comes to this general topic of women in crypto? You know, obviously one is simply the fact that there are many fewer women in crypto than there are men. It's not anywhere near gender

parity. So there's that, but then maybe there are other issues. I don't, you know, what do you guys see as kind of the main issues or main things that you would want others to know about this topic? I guess I can start. I think the fact that we, there are so

few of us and we're underrepresented then gave the outside world the impression that this is, you know, a space only for for a because it is very, it can be very demanding, right? It is 24-7 markets. For anyone who wants to be in this business,

it is physically and mentally demanding, but it doesn't mean that women should be discouraged to join. And I am making a point of hiring more women on my team and even just at Amber in general. But then a lot of times, even at a candidate level, you don't see a lot of female applicants. And I just feel like maybe they've, they feel, you know, dissuaded from the start.

And there are a few of people, of women at Deutsche and Numura or even just at Karinke-Mellon, reach out to me saying that, oh, you know, it's just so great to hear your voice, even in these platforms and making me feel like I can also be part of it. And I want all of us to be able to tell them that maybe it's not easy, just as It's not easy to do anything well, but then being a woman, certainly not a disadvantage, if not an advantage in itself, because I think crypto should be very inclusive, and then it really should represent a more diverse background when companies building products or building infrastructures or anything in the space.

We need to hear both sides of the story. And another thing is crypto also, most crypto businesses today, maybe the exception of the few are still startups, right? And I think a lot of the decision you have as a person to join a startup company is, you know, they don't have a huge HR department that has well-trouted processes when it comes to like dealing with issues. You're seeing on your traditional bank, these are all done. And, you know, you could go in knowing how your insurance would be like. And all of these custom benefits. that you get, right? And you don't have to go through this battle again versus when you're in a startup, you have to not only do your job, but then knowing the fact that there might be potential of discrimination, what do you do? So I think a lot of these women think about these problems in their head a lot, where they're like, you know, how do I want to manage my risk, my career, and what's the most optimal way for me to succeed? And they evaluate the risk associated being joined a new industry

that is predominantly dominated by a group of people. And again, these are startups, right? So there's all these risk compound together. I feel like the problem might not be as appearance. And if you would break it down into different layers of the industry that we operate in, the result is, you know, they're just less women in our industry working. Yeah. Yeah, I think it goes pretty broad.

Like, you know, like Mia mentioned earlier, like crypto is the intersection of tech and finance and societally on a larger scale beyond just crypto, women are often dissuaded from going into tech or finance or don't learn about it as, you know, at a young age, just anecdotally, like, so many of my male friends like started investing or getting into the stock market and stuff like that, way before my female friends ever did and had completely different risk tolerances and different, you know, conceptions towards it. And, you know, not to say that women can't, women can. Like, all these people are doing

incredible, all my, you know, friends are investing now doing incredible things. Just like at a young age, their teachers, their parents, their friends weren't telling them, hey, like, you should check out the stock market. Like, you should learn how to do this. The way their male peers were getting that kind of encouragement. And so it's kind of a broader, like, socialized thing at a younger age where it's like, okay, like, crypto's the intersection of these two things. How do we say, you're, you're welcome here and we're going to teach you. Like, you don't, like, you can come to here and you can ask questions and we're going to help you answer them. Like, I didn't know what an order book was until, like, I started.

looking into crypto. I didn't know any of this stuff. And so definitely was learning it on the fly. And Mia, did you want to add anything? Yeah, I think there's a really a lack of, like, where I love to see change. I think like she's two-fiti is doing great things about bringing women together. And I think really when you find role models, you want to find those who you can relate with. And I think right now is very little visibility of these role models or, you know, or just people when you can reach out who are already in the industry. And I think that's why having a very clear theme of, you know, a panel like this or a sheet 256 is really giving like that kind of, you know, beacon or, you know, basically for people to,

you know, for more women to, like, reach out to. So since we did mention sheaf 256 a few times. Alexis, I did want to ask you, what did you feel were your big takeaways from that initiative about either what the main obstacles are, to bringing more diversity to crypto, or, you know, what you think maybe are the best ways to overcome those obstacles? Absolutely. I think that's a great question. I think one insight that I'll point to that's pretty interesting. We ran a beta of our job board last year. And the majority of the postings on job board were for the senior level positions. But a lot of the folks who were coming in from

our community were either more junior or didn't have experience in crypto. And it was hard to find a match of companies that were willing to put in the investment to train up people to get them to whatever level versus looking for like senior talent out of the gate. And the definition of senior might be missing different perspectives or missing different things that these people bring to the table that might not be in that job description. So what we've done for, you know, that job board beta and then now the job board that's going to be launching this year is put together a set of guidelines that companies can look to to help them improve their practices and help them up with their job descriptions to bring more people in the door and see how, you know, those people

can add specific value to their company. And so that's one anecdote that I'll point out that, you know, happened recently that I thought was interesting. And in terms of how people can get involved. I think one really cool thing about the emergence of like defy and governance is that it's really made this playing field very accessible. Like you can go in with like an anonymous identity, ask your questions, like no one even has to know who you are. You can, you can join groups like GT56 where you can connect with other people. You can start making pull requests, asking questions, you know, contributing on forums. And people are usually very willing to answer questions, which is something that I really appreciate about this space. But I think it's always

incredibly helpful to have those like-minded communities and places where you feel comfortable asking questions, you know, even with your own identity without having to go make an anonymous account to feel comfortable. And so I just, you know, we did discuss how a lot of other industries that relate to crypto also are known for being more male-dominated. And Annabel and Amy, since you both have that background in traditional finance, I was curious to hear your take on, you know, how the two compare in terms of what it's like to be a woman in either of these industries, traditional finance or crypto. Is it different or is it the same or, you know, how are you finding it? Maybe I can start. I think it's actually different in a way. I think, you know, we're from like a

bulge bracket bank and you from that kind of industry where in the last 20, 30 years have went through a massive shifting culture, right? You know, if I was a trader on Wall Street 30 years ago, I think my experience will perhaps be very different than I do now because a lot of the issues I think you do get to see have been resolved more so, right? You know, within traditional finance, there's a lot of these women's group and there's a lot of support in the organization in terms of mentorship and, you know, because they're larger organizations as well. But, you know, as me joining the trading floor at Deutsche, yes, I know I noticed visibly that I was one of the few women who were there. But it wasn't as though I felt like I'm on an island by myself and I'm trying

to figure out everything on my own. There's a lot of resources being there to help you. I think when it comes to crypto, partially because it's new, partially because these, again, our startups, coming in, you know, it didn't get the same kind of resources, right? You had to figure a lot of it on your own. You have to talk to your managers and speak with HR and figure it out like, you know, what is I need to do, right? And this is a, you know, so I think that's difference number one between like traditional into the world we operate in.

And I think part two probably is also different. Again, crypto is also very tech driven, right? So I think with trading, it's mostly, you know, there's capital markets. And I think tech culture, maybe Mia can speak to a little bit more. But like, it's also a unique tech culture that we also have to operate in within as well. And I speak to a lot of times, you know, the product managers who are women within, you know, crypto and they deal more similarly to what they used to deal with in the tech industry, right? Which is, you know, how do I make sure my voice was heard?

How do I get my male peers to respect me? it's actually like very interesting because the industry that we operate in and there's both sides of the coin where I think come from like a trading seat you feel like oh I need to hang with the traders and be more broie and be with that perspective versus I think if you look at from a tech perspective then it's actually very different from a culture elements as well yeah I would echo what amy just said I think that's also because we were in I guess I was in New York at Deutsche versus Amy was in Hong Kong.

So maybe there's also slightly that culture differences too. And in New York, it is very, I would say, very politically correct when it comes to a lot of the things, gender-related. So there are even like they wouldn't make a point to give you a lot of the support groups, and there are a lot of like women's association that you can join. So you definitely feel like, okay, this is a topic that people talk about. And obviously with the whole Me Too movement, you know, there's different backdrops.

But then it is the gender topic, a gender issue, is very top of line for a lot of people in the U.S. But versus in Asia, I guess culturally is different. An equality level is perhaps different between genders in Asia more so. At least that's how I feel. So I think that there's also that aspect of it. and crypto for sure, I think, because most of us are in startups, I remember first joiners, like there is the physical checkups benefit for everyone. There are so few women.

I don't think OBJYN was even included that didn't even cross their mind. So it's funny, but then it's also serious, right? that I think that just means for us who are early in the space, for us we have to do more work together, hopefully, and to build a better baseline for a lot of women that come after. And wait, so earlier when you were saying that you felt like the gender issues in the U.S. are different from then in Asia, how so? It wasn't clear to me which direction?

I think it's just more talked about in the U.S. us that people understand that there is gender inequality. They accept it, acknowledge it. And then people are doing things or at least trying harder, I feel, to address that. Versus in Asia, there's more inherent gender inequality. That's more rooted in a culture, perhaps. And it's more accepted. People don't talk about it.

People kind of expect it. Like if you're women, like, here in Asia, when I try to do business, people are saying, you know, who are you an assistant or, you know, and that's their default assumption. And it's hard to climb out of that. You have to go further. You have to work much harder to prove that, no, right? I have a seated table and perhaps deserve more so than you do. So, you know, that's just some extra hurdles that we have to, uh, to, to overcome. Wow. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And that's, yeah, that's definitely not good of people. Just assume that because you're a woman, you're an assistant.

That's actually really, yeah. I've had that encounter as well. It's like, also it's when you, I think the goal here's not about Asia versus U.S. or whatnot, but I think also it's a lot of like social pressure too. It's not just like business pressure. It's like people look at you and be like, oh, you know, you're getting old enough. Like, you have a husband.

Do you are getting married? And there's all these expectations of you in Asia, specifically more so probably in the U.S. and that adds into your overall decision making, right? Like we talk about why are we having these conversations? And a lot of it's also social pressure. And you have friends, families, influences that has maybe a more traditional way of looking at things. And yes, of course, you know, we all can fight against it and perhaps find our own identity.

But the current is going against you, right? So your concept is swim upwards. And it's tough. I think that's probably why at the end of the, that you combine many different things, including the difficulties to fade professionally and then the difficulty of they face, you know, culturally, the influence you have to deal with from friends and families. And that's why we're having these conversations today, right, about, you know, why is it more harder and what can we do to address these things?

I have noticed that, and this is now just almost getting into cultural differences, which is not the exact topic, but I have noticed sometimes if I deal with foreigners from Asia, they will ask me questions that are like quite directed about, you know, some of these things that are quite specific to women. So, yeah, somehow just being a woman makes them want to be nosy about those things. But anyway, so one thing I did want to ask, though, is, you know, we've kind of been talking in abstract about what it's like to, to be a woman in a male-dominated industry. But do any of you feel that it's been a hindrance

or that you've experienced any discrimination or is it just something that is more subtle? Or, you know, what has your just experience been of being a woman in crypto when most of the people that you work with are men? Maybe I have a really good example in this. I have a friend of mine who recently came up to me and sold in the industry and said,

hey, I just started a new job and then, you know, I'm pregnant. I was like, wow, congratulations. I'm so happy for you. I'm super excited. Oh, my God, like all of these things. And she was like, I'm worried about telling my manager because, you know, I was like shocked, right? I've never considered this in my life. And I was like, you should not feel bad and you should not feel sorry.

And that's something that really kind of hit me first time. And in a while, I was like, oh, like, you do have to think about these things differently. And maybe because I'm not at a stage in the life where I am thinking about that, but that was something that, as an example, right? But maybe this is not supposed to crypto. Maybe it's just in general women in the workforce. But that's an example where, you know, I think a lot of times women have to think about these things being like, oh, what's my timeline look like?

I'm out of commission. What does that mean, you know? Yeah, I think just to add on that, I think there's this, like, expectation of you for, okay, you're women, then you must be good at, like, dealing with people or, like, you must have really good soft skills and you add a different touch to the team that you're like a good additional thing to have. And so, like, sometimes the, the sort of the way that the emphasis of your skill sets that they see is like, because you're women, you're better, you know, you're more empathetic and et cetera. But it, well, that is all true, but then that could be,

you know, sometimes the focus of, you know, what they expect out of you. So, so I think that's, that's a, that kind of creates this like reinforcement loop that, you know, psychologically could be difficult to break out of. With over 10 million users, crypto.com is the easiest place to buy and sell over 90 cryptocurrencies. Download the crypto.com app now and get $25 with the code Laura. If you're a hodler, crypto.com earn pays industry leading interest rates on over 30 coins, including Bitcoin, at up to 8.5% interest and up to 14% interest on your stable coins. When it's time to spend your crypto, nothing beats the crypto.com visa card, which pays you up to 8% back instantly and gives you 100% rebate for your Netflix, Spotify, and Amazon Prime subscriptions. There is no annual or monthly fees to worry about.

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by DAPs, aggregators, or other users. Visit dm.com.exchange now. So we've been discussing women working in crypto, and yet there's also plenty of other ways to get involved in the industry. And the Wall Street Journal recently reported about more women taking up crypto as kind of like a trading hobby. And they reported that one in four customers who traded crypto so far in 2021 on the Robin Hood app are women. and they also, however, they did say that fewer women trade crypto on Robin Hood than trade stocks in ETFs. And then they also noted the statistic that over the last couple of years, E. Toro said that the number of female crypto traders in the U.S. on its platform has increased by half to about 20% of all users in the U.S.

and, you know, these, frankly, in a way, actually are better numbers than I've seen in the past. So that is heartening. And yet, obviously, given that women are 51% of the population, it's, you know, nowhere near their numbers in the general population. So what do you, you know, what do you think is the cause for the increase in the number of women? And yet also, what do you think we can do to get more women interested in crypto? I think I'll start. I think there are more women in the space, perhaps, or more people in general, because the infrastructure has become more mature and they're more regulated venues where you can trade

and where people feel safe and secure about their assets, about where they're trading, and crypto has become more mainstream than last cycle four years ago. So I think that's just a general trend. And perhaps, and again, not trying to stereotype here, but perhaps women would be slightly more risk-averse than a lot of the men who might just want to, who are perhaps more inclined to trade riskier things and new platforms. But now because there are a lot of these better-known names in this space, I think, you know, Robin Hood or even Quay, Coinbase that just went public. I think they gave people in general a lot of faith in this industry. And I think more women are perhaps drawn into the industry and feel like it is safe

and okay for them to start trading. And I think amongst the younger generation, the Gen Zs or even whoever comes after, I think for them maybe it's just really embracing a new form of assets. that class in truly digital form, just as a lot of the things are used to in their life now, living, talking to friends on Zoom and doing payments in digital formats. So I think perhaps for them, as a generation, it's just more accepting. And then no matter for men or women, they are willing to try this out. So we also launched Retail Facing App last year.

So within six months, we've gone significant traction and just looking at, looking at the data, it is quite interesting. I think for us on our platform, a third of the users are female and the majority, the age group, the majority of the age group is within, you know, 30 years old or younger. So I think that perhaps play into to the thesis. Interesting. And is your app focused on the Asian market? It is, it can be accessed globally. It just, we started with it. We started with, you know, it's, with very simple functions where people can buy and sell Bitcoin, Ethereum, you know, those major tokens, and then can earn yields on it.

So, and then people in Asia and North America and Europe can access it. But are the majority, like, just I'm curious because I was going to ask if you feel that there's a difference in the gender imbalance in Asia when it comes to just general interest in crypto versus in the West? I'm not sure about gender, but I feel like, if anything, perhaps the level of participation in Asia is more so than the West. Like you look at Japan, Korea,

a lot of the Asian countries, the crypto adoption level is much higher. I think in Korea, people trade it more crypto and volume than in Korean stock market. So, yeah, like I think more than a third of the population, the entire Korean population, holds crypto. That's just something that we've passed very different from the U.S. Yeah, okay, but you're not sure if that extends to a greater percentage of women in Asia being interested in crypto than in the U.S. Or does anybody know that?

Sure. Okay. And nobody else is aware of what that number might be. No, okay. Because, yeah, because that would be kind of interesting to look at. Yeah, for sure. I'm going to take a look later. Okay.

At least on our platform. And so for you just with your friends, because I personally have tried to do this with my friends, and I will just tell you that equally between the male and female friends, the lack of interest in crypto is like the same. I will say my best friend, who's a woman, read a draft of my book. And then she actually did become interested in crypto. So, you know, so I kind of got one convert. But yeah, no.

A funny story I have about this is that I was hanging out with a male friend. And I, this was during the whole sushi swap, Uniswap saga. And I tried to tell him the story, which to me was like the most exciting thing that like had. happened in the last, you know, few weeks or whatever and trying to explain it with all the drama. And he kind of like laughed a fake laugh and then changed the subject. So clearly I didn't get nervous. But anyway, so for you, when you are talking to your non-crypto friends, whether it's met or women, but, you know, we're mostly talking about women. So I was just curious, do you find that there are any certain explanations or pitches or descriptions that work better?

or with your female friends to get them excited or interested? Or do you find that there are maybe certain themes or topics that they gravitate more toward like decentralization or a new financial system or control over your data or, you know, something else? You know, how, what have you found to be an effective way to get women interested? Yeah, I can jump in here. Yeah, what I found most effective is to literally just send them some crypto and just have them try step out.

And it's been so interesting. I did this with my little sister, who was 11 years old at the time. I sent her some ETH. This was like a couple of years ago. And she went, she traded that ETH for Dye on Uniswap. And then after that, she got the uni airdrop. And she was like, now this 11 year old with like the uni airdrop, she's like, can buy all the candy in the world.

And so then she's going and telling all her friends, like, oh my God, I traded on this decentralized exchange. And I got like this token for it. And now all her friends are like downloading MetaMask. And so just the. act of like sending someone a little bit of crypto and then feeling the magic themselves and then encouraging their friends and their circles is what has absolutely worked best for me. Wow, I love that story.

I have a lot of our friends. A lot of them are actually girls. And I think recently with NFTs, that's the major thing that they're like, okay, no, I don't know, Mia, what do you do all day? What's this crypto thing? I don't care. And now it's like, oh, suddenly there's new. medium of creation, of creating new form of art. And it's like super, like, they're like, wow, like,

tell me how I can make art out of this. And, you know, all of them are like, VR artists, a artist, and it's super cool to see that. And actually recently, we launched a new NFT platform called the TR Lab and also with some of the really awesome, like, female collectors. So we have Cindy Cohen from, she was a new internet. She was a lot of, She's the deputy chairwoman of Christie's and also Wendy Murdoch from Artsy and, you know, Shanghai Bucking Museum and Shanghai like Arts 021, which, yeah, I'm also very excited to, you know, create with these ladies. And also I think for, it also depends on age group, right?

I think a lot of my friends in my media circles are getting to this point in their career where they're making like a lot of meaningfully more so than what they were when they were like much, much younger, right? And they're thinking like, you know, how do I manage my wealth? Like, what about my money in? So the conversation has changed. I think a lot of it about, you know, we back then it's like how to pay my student loan and what I do about taxes, right? Now it's more about like, okay, well, I have the more disposable income. How can I invest? And like, what are the ways I can take control over my finance? And that's, I think a lot of my female friends are taking more an active role in this because they know like financial independence is super important for them

and and they're more interested in learning about you know what is this thing what is this bitcoin thing that you know you talk about all day long right and they're like what does that mean so they're more interested from that perspective but i think that comes the medium of like distribution i definitely like notice that you know if you're sending crypto to your friends is the easiest way if you can download mobile app on a wall on their phone like they don't have to go through the tedious process on boarding perhaps, and, you know, they get much more interested very early. And then you explain, you know, the risk and the processes and things like that. So I feel like for those that have worked out well from just like a fundamental investment

perspective, for some of my male friends are more interesting, more like financial instrument. They're interesting in the instrument elements of this asset class rather than just like the underlying, right? So it's like, how do I trade options and how do I do the same thing I used to connect to those interactive brokers, right? Like, they're thinking more of, like, trading this versus my female friends are thinking more as a form of, like, how to earn yield and how do I, you know, invest in underlying stuff in general.

So I think there's a bit of a difference in an approach as well. Maybe perhaps most of my guy friends are in finance. They understand this more. But, yeah, so that's something that I noticed across my, like, two friend groups. Yeah. And for me, it's similar. Most of my finance friends, no matter male or female, they are looking at you. into it as perhaps, you know, how do I, is it worth it for me to allocate a little bit within my

portfolio? What is that going to look like? And they understand a risk reward profile of this new athletic class and they're very open to it. And I also have some friends in art and entertainment and yeah, the draw for them is NFTs and a lot of them are asking me, oh, how do I issue one for the work that I'm doing or you have a group of artists or YouTube stars wanted to launch something their own and how do I get started. So I think it really depends on what they do and how blockchain in general relates to their actual interest. If their interest is in art and fashion and content in general or in more finance-driven fields, I do think blockchain, there's so many different applications to live on it. So I'm sure there is something for everyone.

And for me, I haven't seen that's particularly to men or to women. I think as long as they find something that's so relevant to what they love doing and they just want to jump into it. Yeah, yeah, I'm finding the same that now with the NFT thing, this is the first time I can get my real friends involved because this of them are creators of some sort. And they're, you know, they're kind of interested. And they're like, oh, it's this. So, you know, we've talked about.

your personal experiences and we talked about kind of general people taking this up as a hobby. But one other thing I want to talk about was, you know, Alexis, you're a co-founder of Open. And, you know, as somebody who is often looking for different people to interview, I have noticed that, you know, there just really aren't that many co-founders in the space who are women. And I think it's kind of even a smaller percentage than there are women in the space in general. And so this question isn't just for you, Alexis, but it's for anybody to discuss. But why do you guys think that even when it comes to co-founders, that it's an even smaller percentage who are women than of just women in general in crypto?

And, you know, I think for me, what I find a little bit confusing about that is also just the fact that crypto right now is this kind of total, you know, open space where things are being built fresh. And so it's not like there's super established things. You know, people can go out and kind of create new stuff. So, you know, what's your theory about that? And what do you also think are maybe some of the best ways to encourage more women to found new projects? Yeah, I think that's a really good question. I feel like it's a kind of a general thing across startups, it is definitely like a riskier thing to do. Like even when I was dropping out of school and deciding to do this, there was definitely like a whole thought process that went through

my head about like, you know, like, what's the worst I can happen? And when this I was like, oh, the worst I can happen isn't that bad. Like I go back to school. Then it felt like a lot better and like something I could do. But definitely getting over that risk hump with something for me. And I totally agree like crypto is this minefield right now and this vast open. in space. And I think the more we can encourage people to take risks and be like, hey, society's not going to punish you for taking that risk. You're going to learn something that's going to be a ton of fun. There are people going to be on that journey with you. The more we can spread that narrative as opposed to like, oh, it's this like big whole thing. Like, no, you're starting

something fun with your friends. You're going to have a good time. I think maybe that could help, like peel away the layers of it being intimidating are super risky and try to make it more accessible. And then, you know, the other thing, frankly, is, like, people just being able to, like, have the funding to do that. Like, my co-founder of Parna got the Teal Fellowship. We got a grant from MakerDAO. So we were in a position where we were able to, like, do these things, which was really great. And so, you know, right now a lot of these protocols have larger treasuries and they are using

them to give out grants, which is really great. And so it's an opportunity for them to enable more people to take that jump and, you know, take that risk. And I think a lot of times we look at things as the by, we look at things like the results, right? The result is we're seeing less women as co-founders in crypto as men. But if you ask yourself like why that happens, it actually goes way before that,

which is I want to start a business, I need co-founders. So where can I select co-funders from who's got experiences in this industry, which is less to begin with, right? So, you know, I'm a female. I want to select other co-founders. If I select one co-founder that's male, then that's 50-50, if it's two co-founders, then one-third. Right?

So there's like that buyproduct. of starting a business. And then the question is, okay, well, if there's less people in the industry, it all goes down to like, how can we get more women in the industry to work, therefore building a talent pool of co-founders potentially to partner with, right? And then, like, how we could then grow and see that, like, result change. Because, yeah, like, you know, you're starting a new business. You want it to be successful.

And you're not really thinking about, like, maybe I want to have an all-female strong team that can go and have, like, all-female co-founders, right? you thinking like how can I make sure that I bridge, you know, the skills that I don't have to have a successful business and you look at the selection pool and it's a reflection of the industry. So I feel like that could also be one of the observation that you see. And this goes to kind of most of the topic we're talking about today, right? It is, you look at the results and it's a reflection of, it's tougher. You have to be more proactive to try harder to me to correct it. Yeah, well, so speaking of that, there were a couple of different comments earlier made about hiring.

And, you know, a few people made the observation that there aren't as many candidates or maybe that sometimes when there are female candidates that maybe they're more junior. Although actually Alexis, when you said that, I wondered if it's that does she 256 kind of have just a younger membership than like another type of organization? We definitely do have a younger membership. Like I imagine if it's folks coming from traditional finance that have a lot of financial experience, we're looking at a completely different ballgame. But yeah, she's 56 in particular does have like a younger audience. Okay. Yeah.

Well, but, you know, regardless, just when it comes to hiring, what do you guys think would be some good practices to help bring more women in or to have more, you know, strong female candidates for any position that you might be hiring for? So I've thought about this a little bit more before. I think as a hiring manager, you have to be more patient and really understand that maybe the candidate on paper in front of you may not have been exposed to the same opportunities as their peers, right? So therefore, if you look at things like tenure, how long they've worked in certain

industry, what job title they had previously, or like, what experience they've been given. Like on paper, it might seem like, oh, this candidate is better, right? but really I try to personally to look at like what specific contribution they've made in their specific time that they were there and like you know try to just speak to them like I think you know if I interview a female can ask them a lot more questions right I'm like oh tell about your experience at that time like delve a little bit deeper instead of just judging a resume so blankly because maybe again like resumes is just combinations of experience that had previously and if we already know that the industry have issues around like

getting more women, or maybe they may not have the same experiences as other candidates for whatever reason, then I try to find out more characteristics about them rather than just looking and judging them on a piece of paper. So I think that's, which means, you know, me, I have to commit more time in doing that. And I think I'm willing to, right? So that's one thing I found to be helpful. And another thing, obviously, is just doing more things like this, right? Speaking out more and getting, you know, more people out there and talk about this topic more So people feel comfortable that, hey, listen, you know, Amy is someone who's pro this topic. And then she's very adamant about it.

And then maybe they want to apply for fireblocks. I don't know. Right. But anything that can do to help. You know, I mean, I've spoken to Amy on the subject before, I guess, multiple times as we're, you know, just chatting about our struggles and hiring in general. And for me, it is, I think a lot of female candidates, they feel better, more assured when they see more women. team or even like a female leader of the team. I think that gives them some confidence,

I suppose. And so I think that starts with having a more diverse team to begin with, where if you have an all-male team and an all-male company, then you're saying, hey, we care about women's issue a lot, then that kind of would seem a bit strange. But if you already have a very balanced and diverse team, then they will feel more inclined to join the first place. And I think it is on us to really be their mentor and then making a point to tell them that, that you will have the support and the mentorship you're looking for

because I think this should be important for everyone, not just for female candidates or for the women in the space for everyone who's looking to continuously learn and grow. So just making a point that we tell everyone that. So I think that's at least how I feel while I're trying to build a team and a very global team as well. And my team is in Korea, in Japan, and in Hong Kong, maybe in Europe and North America soon. And just how do you balance also the cultural differences and then different gender all in one together? So I think that's just, it's challenging.

But it's something that I love to work on to make sure that we have the right team, right time. talent and that should be both men and women. It shouldn't be discriminating against anyone. And any other thoughts on how to hire and maybe draw in more female candidates from other industries? Because I will have to say there are certain companies that I feel in crypto are quite good at this, but frankly, they're also the extremely, extremely well-funded company. And so I think they have the time to kind of like look at a lot of different resumes of people in adjacent industries and bring them in.

But yeah, I was just curious if there are any other thoughts you had on because I do feel like, you know, as we mentioned earlier since crypto is a totally new space. So there's probably tons of women in adjacent industries who have skills that are transferable, who would be amazing hires. but it's probably, you know, going to be on the employers to seek them out. So any tips on, you know, finding them or, yeah, and persuading them to jump into this new area. Yeah, I think the crypto culture looking from the outside could seem like, all this is just like nerdy, like me, me, like, you know, on Twitter. And it could seem like a little bit like, not. not what most women found, you know, I'm really reliable with.

So again, I think it goes back to my point earlier is about increasing visibility and also telling the narrative of crypto in a most, like, concise and friendly way. And I think for that, I think, you know, I think platforms like 5056 is awesome. And actually recently, I'm also thinking of putting together a class on crypto and also wanting to bring in, like female guest speakers and, yeah, basically telling the narrative crypto by all women

and in a simple and concise way. And so hopefully that would attract more talent to participate in this industry. All right. So since I imagine a number of people who are listening to this show or this panel are people who are people who are either interested in working in the industry, or are already working in it. And so what is your advice for women in the crypto industry to find their footing and make their way up? This is a really good question.

And we've been thinking about it a lot at sheet 56. I'm definitely going to just plug sheetto56.org because it's got a ton of resources for this exact thing. There's a Discord community where you can ask lots of questions. There's the job board where you can find tangible jobs. There's a beginner's guide, goes through like step by step really good resources to start with. And so I would say, you know, start with the beginner's guide, hop into the Discord, ask lots and lots of questions,

and then jump in, choose your favorite protocol and do something to help contribute. You know, that could be as smallest commenting on a governance proposal, which is actually a pretty big deal because those proposals are what make all the decisions for the protocol. Or just using it and giving feedback. Protocols love getting that kind of feedback. And that helps you learn and start to find your footing, find what you're passionate about. Yeah, I'm always happy to be a resource. So if anyone's on a show, feel free to, you know, feel free to, you know, DM me on Twitter or send me an email.

Always happy here to chat. And, yeah, and then the class I was talking about earlier, I think, you know, I think all, it's a bull market. It's busy times, but I think it's worthwhile making the time to put out good content for people to digest because we're really, you know, crypto goes cyclical, right? And every cycle, it's a good time to attract new talent in. And if we are able to widen that funnel and make that on rem easier for people to either just, you know, buy crypto or just participate in the industry, like that would be a great,

would set up a great grounding for the next generation and the next wave. And I think, you know, looking across, I think, it's already, we're already seeing improvements like, you know, all of you guys and, you know, back in 2017, like, you know, we're like just getting started. And so, look, it's been only, what, two or three years. And I think we're making really great progress. So I'm very optimistic. I think we spent a lot of time today talking about the difficulties, right? But I think the biggest, best thing to do is talk about the good things of why we all do this in the first place, right? like it's, you know, most crypto industries, it's 24-7, sure.

But also you have flexible working hours, right? You, you know, you meet great people who are, you know, risk takers and really are like the best in their field and come out and have interesting ideas. Like your job would not bore you. It's, you know, the fundamental thing I'm trying to tell people all the time, right? It's like, it's an exciting industry that is growing. You're on the forefront of like innovation technology. You're disrupting all these great things.

Yes, of course it will be challenging. And there's things we can do to help. But fundamentally, I think, if the message I hope everyone could receive is, you know, the risk is worth it. Right. In the end of the day, you go home, you go to sleep by night. You feel like I feel proud of by the work I do. I'm happy with what I'm contributing. I'm great friends.

And this is a thing about crypto that is so different than traditional markets. Like my clients, my competitors, my peers are like my actual friends. We just fundamentally understand each other on the same level versus, you know, in traditional markets, like, you know, I would never go hang out with my competitors, the same way I do now. Right? So I think that's really great. And it's, you know, and that's probably the most exciting thing also about what we do.

So, you know, if there's, you know, there's resources out there to support you. But, you know, fundamentally, I think if there's one thing to focus on, it's just no matter the risk in the end of the day, If you take the plunge, you start, people will help you. And it's always the either thing you think to get through this. Yeah, no, exactly. Very well said, Amy. And I think for anyone to succeed in this field as somebody who really believes in it, and I think for people who actually enjoy it, right, it is, it could be challenging,

it could be demanding, but we're all in it. And, you know, I wake up every day loving the space because there's so many things happening so many new things who never I always said there's never a dull day in crypto things will happen and there's so much innovation coming out of the space and I am in the field with the brightest minds and I just feel so lucky

and I hope more people will feel that way and for the women out there who are thinking about this like Amy said right it's perhaps not as risky or crazy as you think it is and we're all here to be your resources. And I, you know, I hope we do more of this to get a much bigger community and to just make a stance to say that we are here, we're your resource for anyone else who wants to join us. I think that's an important message by the end of the day. Really, just if you

are just in the space, then you should give it a shot. I mean, the worst case is not so bad. Great. Yeah. And earlier when Amy said, you will not be bored. I second that. You will not do it. It's definitely my favorite thing about crypto. That's why I can't imagine covering anything else ever again, because I just enthralled pretty much every day, and I love it. Our video cut out right as I was about to wrap up, so I just want to thank the panelists again for discussing a topic

that many others are not willing to discuss publicly and also for their great ideas and getting more women interested in crypto and bringing them into the industry. To learn more about Amy and FireBlog, Annabelle and Amber Group, Mia and Dragonfly, Alexis in Open, check out the show notes for this episode. Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin, with help from Anthony Yun, Daniel Ness, and Mark Murdoch. Thanks for listening.