Unchained - Do Kwon Is Backing UST With Bitcoin – And Here’s What Else He Is Building - Ep.335

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi, all, in recent press interviews or at book signings and speaking engagements, people have been asking what's next for me now that my book is out. Well, I'm happy that I'm finally able to announce what I'll be working on. Today, Law and Crime, the leading live trial and true crime network, and I announced that we will be collaborating on an investigative podcast series that explores the case of Ilya Lichtenstein and Heather Morgan, the couple who have been accused of attempting to launder $4.5 billion worth of Bitcoin. The series will be a deep dive into the story to understand the married couple at the center of it,

Starting point is 00:00:36 how they allegedly attempted to launder the Bitcoin stolen from BitFinex, and then to look more closely at the clues that led to their arrest. I'm thrilled to be partnering with law and crime to tell this tale about stolen Bitcoin with the depth and level of detail it deserves. It will be a fascinating journey not only into the lives of this couple that has already captivated the internet, but into how blockchain sleuthing enabled the government to track them down.

Starting point is 00:01:01 We have a press release out about it today, which you can read on Law and Crime, so if you're interested in learning more, check out the Unchained Daily newsletter today and tomorrow and or my Twitter feed. Also, as usual, I have upcoming book events for my book tour. So you can also find these at laura shinn.com on the book page, which is laura shin.com

Starting point is 00:01:22 slash book slash hashtag tour hyphen dates. And I'm just going to give a quick rundown through all the events. So if you live in any of these cities, you might want to come check them out. And a few of these are also virtual events. Wednesday, March 30th, I'll be speaking remotely with six senses about the cryptopians at 2 p.m. Eastern. If you want to save your spot, the sign up is at laura shinn.com slash book. The same day, I will be speaking and moderating a panel at the National Security Institute called Crypto and National Security, how to validate American Innovation and verify U.S. national security with panelists Jerry Brito of Coin Center, Sheila Warren of the Crypto Council for Innovation, and Juan Zarate of K2 Integrity and NSAID Advisory Board member.

Starting point is 00:02:11 On Thursday, March 31st, at 1 p.m. Eastern or 10 a.m. Pacific, I am doing a Twitter spaces with fingerprint stow in which I will be interviewed by OG crypto artist Mitchell Chan. Many of you tweeted at me about how much you loved Mitchell when he came on Unchained. So I would highly encourage you to check this out. He is a fascinating person. I'm sure he will ask great questions. And also, he knows quite a bit about journalism and plans to dive into some issues involving covering crypto. Tuesday, April 5th, if you're going to be in Miami, I will be doing a reading and signing hosted by the city of Miami Beach and Future Perfect Ventures. It will be at Skyyard from 6 to 8 p.m. Jalakjo-Bun-Putra, CEO of Future Perfect Ventures, will be interviewing me.

Starting point is 00:03:00 You need RSVP by this Friday, April 1st, to Diana Fontani at Miami BeachFL.gov. And then on Saturday, April night, I will be interviewing. viewed at the Annapolis Book Festival at 11 a.m. On Tuesday, April 12th, I will be at Startup Grinds Global Event in Redwood City, which is focused this year on Web 3. The time is TBD. And May 4th, I will be in conversation with author Jimmy Soni at the PBS Seattle Crosscut Festival, which takes place from May 4th to 7th again, Details TBD. Finally, last but not least, I will be at the Oslo Freedom Forum from May 23rd to 25th. Again, Details TBD. And now, on to the show.

Starting point is 00:03:47 Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unchained, your no-hype resource for all things Crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin, author of The Cryptopians. I started covering crypto six years ago, and as a senior editor at Forbes, was the first mainstream meter porter to cover cryptocurrency full-time. This is the March 29th, 2022 episode of Unchained. This episode of Unchained is brought to you by Beefy Finance, the multi-chain yield optimizer. Beefy is the easiest way to earn more from your crypto.

Starting point is 00:04:17 Deposit funds into Beefy's secure vault to auto-compound yield across 12 blockchains. Got crypto? Choose Beefy. Welcome to a new world of crypto-friendly banking with Cross River Bank. Request your Fiat-on-OffRamp solution now at crossriver.com slash crypto. Buy, earn, and spend crypto on the Crypto. app. New users can enjoy zero credit card fees on crypto purchases in the first 30 days. Download the crypto.com app and get $25 with the code Laura. Link in the description. Today's guest is Doe Kwan, co-founder of Terraform Labs. Welcome, Doe.

Starting point is 00:05:00 Hi, Laura. Thanks for having me. So just a heads up, everyone, that when I asked Doe to come on the show, he requested that we focus on new applications he's working on because he was. tired of answering the same questions all the time. And since I'm doing so many press interviews for my book and I'm also being asked the same questions all the time, I actually agree to that. We did, however, that obviously we would need to cover some basics on Tara and UST so that people wouldn't be lost and they would understand, you know, what his project's about is and all that. I just wanted to make it clear kind of like why this interview may not cover as much territory as I

Starting point is 00:05:37 would typically cover in an interview. However, for those who want to hear more from Doe, he did appear on the chopping block last week. So make sure to check out that episode. Okay, so I'm just going to start with some exposition so we can, you know, make sure everybody's up to speed, but also, you know, minimize the amount of time that you spend talking about this stuff. So you can feel free to tweak anything that I say. But as I mentioned before, you're the co-front of Terraform Labs. And that has built the Terra, ecosystem. And the TARET ecosystem is probably best known for its algorithmic stable coins, such as UST, which is pegged to the US dollar. But now you have other protocols also built

Starting point is 00:06:19 on top such as Mirror, which offers synthetic assets on things like stocks, including US stocks, or there's Anchor, which is like a savings platform and it currently offers yield of almost 20%. But when we start the discussion about your main stablecoin UST, Because you recently had big news about changes you were going to make about how it's being backed. And it used to be that in order to mint, say, 10 UST, you would have to burn $10 worth of Luna, which is the staking token of Terra. But obviously, you changed how that works. So why don't you explain what the new system is for people?

Starting point is 00:07:00 Sure. So as a refresher for people that, you know, are not intimately familiar with how, Pera works is that the idea is that in order to mint one Tera USD, which is a stable coin pegged to one US dollar, you need to burn a dollar's worth of Luna in order to do so. And then on the other side of the trade, if you're looking to redeem one Tera USD, you can trade it into the blockchain and get a dollar's worth of Luna back in the turn. So the idea is that Luna as a staking asset that expands and contracts the supply to absorb the demand volatility for Terra stable points.

Starting point is 00:07:40 We've had some pretty good success with this. So TerraUSD is currently the fourth largest stable point in the world at roughly around $16 billion in market cap. And by, I think, within a relatively recent future, looking at his growth trajectory, I think it's going to be number three, relatively soon.

Starting point is 00:08:01 So we recently made announcements, whereby we're bootstrapping a large decentralized forex reserve in the form of Bitcoin. So we've initially ceded this reserve with about $3 billion in assets, and we're in the process of converting all those exogenous assets into Bitcoin. And then we have plans to grow this to some meaningful percentage of USD market cap within the next year. And why did you decide to make that change? Well, so a couple of things. So the first is algorithmic stable coins, so a system whereby Luna absorbs demand volatility for the UST,

Starting point is 00:08:39 is reasonably robust and as Luna market cap grows is going to get more and more robust. But it also has the downside that in sort of drastic changes in demand, you could lead to that spiral situations where, you know, the price of Luna is falling at the same time as the money supply of USPs could check. In the beginning, when Perra was, you know, focusing on a limited number of use cases where, you know, The largest developer on the Pera ecosystem was TerraFarm Labs, which was the company that I founded. But now it's actually one of the largest ecosystems in the world. So by TBL, it is the second largest smart contract platform after Ethereum. By usership, it's probably like around that rank.

Starting point is 00:09:20 And then the number of applications that are being built on Terra ranges from, let's say, leverage applications to options, to Forex, to, you know, interest rate swaps to dog coins like Dogequans. and so many different things, that it becomes harder and harder to reason about the demand volatility for parastable points. There's also lots of peristable points that have been exported to different blockchains.

Starting point is 00:09:44 For example, UST is the largest use and the largest TBL and the most frequently used on core finance on Ethereum, for instance, one of the largest on Sabre on Solana, one of the largest on Traders Joe on Pangolin on Avalanche. So all combined, sort of the size of the economy,

Starting point is 00:10:02 that is being built on Terra stable coins is becoming larger and less predictable. So it stands to reason that similar to how a lot of export-based economies in the real world provision forex reserves to sort of control the short-term demand fluctuations in its currency, it became a natural choice for Terra to provision its own Forex Reserve as well, except, you know, in line with what we're trying to do here, it made sense to do this in a decentralized fashion by setting a smart contracts against which people can trade in Bitcoin to mint more UST, and vice versa, redeem USD against Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:10:39 So we're going to explore that a little bit more, but I also want to understand, so since previously it was Luna essentially that was backing UST, now what will be the role for Luna going forward? Well, so you can think about this as a fractional 4x reserve, right? So in the sense that before, in order to mint one pair of USD, you were burning a dollars worth of Luna. Now it's going to be a little bit different

Starting point is 00:11:03 whereby when you mint one pair of UST, some Luna is going to get burned and some Luna is going to be used to provision this decentralized for its reserve. So you can think about a portion of UST scenery going to provision a large reserve of exogenous assets like Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:11:24 So basically, you know, what I read was that when people I guess are kind of exiting Tara, that they can either redeem that for $1 worth of UST. They could redeem that for $1 worth of Luna or $0.9.0.9 dollars worth of BTC, but that you guys will try to, well, actually, I don't know this part. If you're trying to maintain the reserves at like roughly 60% Luna and 40% BTC or if it's just that, because, there's some ratio there around, you know, 60% of Luna and I guess what is it, what is it? You're burning 60% of Luna and then using 40% of that to buy BTC or something.

Starting point is 00:12:10 Can you? Yeah. So it's not a reserve ratio per se. It's more that, you know, when UST is being minted, some, some ratio, which we don't know yet, it could be 40%, be higher or lower, would be used to acquire Bitcoin. So it's as if like USTC range is being. used to build up BTC reserves. Okay. And so then that ratio will be flexible based on whatever other factors. And will it be the Dow?

Starting point is 00:12:40 Right. Bitcoin volatility. Oh, Bitcoin volatility. And will it be the Dow that decides that ratio or? Oh, okay. Oh, interesting. Correct. Because oftentimes, you know, these proposals can take a while. So how flexible and quick do you think they'll be able to react to market volatility? Well, so for example, if we build up Bitcoin reserves at around like 40% of senior age, here's what I think about it. So first is, I think it'll take vera-thens for UST supply to contract by 40% in a short-term pine period. So at a 40% reserve ratio, I feel like we would be collateralizing more than we need to, especially because the core stability mechanism is still looted.

Starting point is 00:13:24 But what the Bitcoin reserves would play a part in doing is that it would prevent that spirals because it would drastically sew down the pace by which new Luna is being minted to facilitate redemptions. Second, I think in a long-term arc, we plan to be one of the largest, if not the largest single wallet hole bear of Bitcoin, the Ptera Protocol itself. And I think over the long arc, the price of Bitcoin is going to do well. So I think the reserve ratio that we end up with in the long term is going to be a lot higher than the reserve ratio that we paid for at acquisition. Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But then within kind of a shorter time frame, maybe like from year to year, since obviously Bitcoin can be quite volatile against USD and also since crypto assets overall tend to be correlated with each other, how would that affect the stability of UST?

Starting point is 00:14:21 Yeah, so I would say from a, if I were to put in my financial planner hat, the worst case would be if we were buying Bitcoin now and then a crash happened six months later and it's correlated with a massive fall into demand for UST, then we would have paid for Bitcoin that we would allow redemptions for at a much cheaper price. So this sort of coincidence of three different events coming together is going to be negative. But the expected value, so, I mean, like applying probabilistic reasoning, I think, you know, massive contractuals for the U.S.T, it gets less and less in terms of the total outstanding market cap of U.S.T. over time. And I think it's not something that's that happens so frequently as, as well as, you know, like massive drop in Bitcoin. So I'm sort of betting that the long-term scenario of Bitcoin going up and the reserves being strong enough to withstand U.S. demand drops is more likely, it's scenario. Oh, okay. That's really interesting. And it makes sense, though. So somebody on Twitter, when I asked what questions I should ask you, tweeted, why does he feel the need to buy Bitcoin to back Luna? Shouldn't Luna be solid enough based on the services provided? It shows a lack of faith in the product. But it's more what you were saying, that you can end up in these like downward spirals or, yeah, what's your response to that? Well, so there's an economic argument why sort of diversifying the types of collateral that can protect UST is the sound strategy. But I think the second dimension that hasn't been actively discussed is the diplomatic argument.

Starting point is 00:16:09 And the reason is, so Tara's goal is to be the largest decentralized money in crypto, period. It is not to, its goal is not to be the largest stable point in the tariff watching. So we're sort of expanding into, let's say, the Solana ecosystem, Avalanche, Ethereum, Polygon. So we plan to be everywhere where there are developers and users. Now, the thing is different from growing stablecoin demand in the Terra ecosystem itself, where trust in UST is extremely high,

Starting point is 00:16:37 when you go to and expand to these different ecosystems, then Faith and Luna's collateral, Luna's fitness is collateral, is a lot less than what it is like in the 10%. ecosystem. But if you have Bitcoin as collateral, then nobody in crypto really questions it. Because it is the apex asset. It has to sound this monetary policy. It has the most slimby. So it builds valuable bridges to be able to be a more neutral asset as we expand cross-chain. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But one thing is that so if the Luna Foundation Guard or LFG is then using the Bitcoin to

Starting point is 00:17:17 keep the peg and it's a centralized entity, then how does that affect the decentralization of UST? Yeah, so that's a good question. So LFT is a vehicle that we put together in order to facilitate the initial capital formation of this Bitcoin Reserve and to fund research such that we can have credible bridging options from Bitcoin to pair. But ultimately, how this reserve system is going to look like is that it's going to be a smart contract, which houses Bitcoin that's been bridged over to Terra, and then people can mint UNCT against it by depositing wrapped Bitcoin at their bridge Bitcoin, and then vice versa, they can redeem U.S.T against it, similar to how you would trade against the NAML.

Starting point is 00:18:01 So it's similar to wrapped Bitcoin on Ethereum, then where there is a centralized entity, or did I misunderstand that? No, so we're evaluating trust-minimized bridges in a way that, you know, WBTC doesn't have those property. Because it's basically a multi-sig held by Bitcoin. Whereas for this, we're exploring mainly like client-based solutions. Oh, okay. Okay. Right. Yeah, but obviously at the moment, I think bridges are just in where there's sometimes security concerns. Yeah, so what are your thoughts on that, how to keep that secure? I think the biggest problem with bridges now is because there's,

Starting point is 00:18:45 is a competitive dynamic where you need to support as many layer ones as quickly as possible. So that leads to situations where a lot of the bridging teams can't spend time on core infrastructure because it's a land grab right now. So the bridge that connects to as many ecosystems as possible and facilitates as much bridging transfers are going to win because it's incredibly difficult to move vendor lock-in once a certain bridge has a lot of market share. So which incentivizes a lot of these bridging teams to spend most of your time on integrations and business development, rather than sort of making sure that the core infrastructure is secure. I think that is the fundamental problem with bridges today.

Starting point is 00:19:27 But having said that, that doesn't mean that there is an inherent problem we're trying to build a secure bridge from Bitcoin to a smart contract platform, especially if you remove a lot of the needs from that competitive dynamic with the equation. Okay, yeah, I think we'll have to see how that develops. So someone else was also saying that they felt that it would be disruptive to Luna to buy so much Bitcoin. So how do you expect all of this to affect the price of Luna? Yeah. So one of the common criticisms that we heard is, well, if before you were burning a dollar's worth of Luna for every dollar of UST that's muted. And now we're burning 60 cents of Luna for every. every dollar's worth of UST that's minted, then doesn't that mean that less value is accrued to

Starting point is 00:20:20 Luna? And I think the answer is likely going to be no. And that's because even though the total share of the collateralization effects from minting UST is lessened through this change, I think overall we would be able to grow the pie of people that are willing to transact and hold UST across multiple different blockchains to a magnitude that wouldn't have been possible if UST only we had one collateral counterparty. So by adding Bitcoin, I think we'd be able to win hearts and minds of a lot more people in crypto and a lot more users than just doing this solar. So I think the overall pie is going to get larger, even though the size that Luna would capture

Starting point is 00:21:02 potentially go back. And have you noticed that a lot of Bitcoiners got very interested in what you were doing and maybe you were interested in participating in the Terra ecosystem because of that? So if you look at my Twitter inbox now, it looks like the Bitcoin talks for it. And so what are people saying generally? Like it or not, I think the Bitcoin community is the largest across solar crypto. It covers the widest possible audience. So like the Bitcoin community might be less active on Twitter because there are lots of people that use Bitcoin, love Bitcoin,

Starting point is 00:21:39 might not, you know, work on it full time. But I think one of the things that Bitcoin is, has been meeting is that there's a lot that has been said comparing Bitcoin to Ethereum and then thinking about what's going to be more valuable long term. And then the idea is that Ethereum is more useful. There's more things that you can do with it. So eventually it's going to flip Bitcoin. So a lot of people think this way. But I think precisely what gives Bitcoin as value is the fact that it's calcified and it's very slow to change to innovation. Similar to how, well, but like if you look at Ethereum, right, it changes less quickly than some of the other small contract platforms, but it still changes all the time. And it's newer. It doesn't really

Starting point is 00:22:19 have the same founding myth. It doesn't have the same Lindy effect that Bitcoin does. So it's significantly a less credibly mutual asset. So I think from that perspective, there's a large and huge Bitcoin community that respects that value system, understands the credible neutrals of the Bitcoin as an asset class. But what has been lacking is sort of a credible layer two, if you think about it. Because Bitcoin is still very difficult to use, still very difficult to weave into smart contracts. And in Terra, it gets that. Not only does Bitcoin become a reserve currency for TerraUSD, right? But it also gets a layer two on which it can be bridged and used across a multitude of

Starting point is 00:23:04 different applications spanning from, you know, let's say other Dow's that are building on Terra to NFTs to defy. And I think the possibilities of that are quite interesting because, Now, Bitcoin only needs to be really good at being one thing, being an asset. And in terms of all the expressivity, the transaction capabilities, the throughput, all those things can happen on there. And is the main difference, because I do feel like there were Bitcoiners who weren't very happy about the amount of Bitcoin that was being used in defy on Ethereum. But is the difference there that that primarily was, you know, being held by the centralized customers?

Starting point is 00:23:44 Stodian, is that why they're kind of more open to this than they were to the other version happening on Ethereum? I think the primary thing that those Bitcoiners didn't like about that was that it was being done on Ethereum, one. Oh. And two, yeah, I think the fact that it had a centralized, but custodian has something to do with it. But I also think there's a healthy segment of Bitcoiners thought that, you know, bringing WBTC

Starting point is 00:24:13 into Ethereum wasn't positive. change. And out of curiosity, this goes back to the security question, but I realize, so at the moment, you guys have already bought $3 billion worth of Bitcoin as far as I understand. So how is that being secured? So the Luna Foundation Guard has a, you know, has a council of about seven people. So it's secured in a multi-sig helped by the council members. Oh, oh, I see. Okay. And then you're going to figure out kind of how to use it in a more trustless way as you go, like at some point in the future? Correct. Okay. And then how have you been purchasing the Bitcoin in a way where, you know, I'm sure you're trying to do it where you're not affecting the price?

Starting point is 00:25:03 It's a ongoing program. So I'm going to try to say less. But let's just say that we try to purchase Bitcoin whenever opportunity arises. Okay, okay. All right. It makes sense to me that you don't want to reveal all your secrets there. So, and then actually just to go back to the bridging, one other thing. So do you have a timeline of when you think that, you know, whatever your plan is will be fully deployed? Yeah. So we're actually going to put out a request for proposal today on Aguara, which is Tara's research farm. and we're going to look for proposals from projects that are already looking at Bitcoin bridging solutions. So there's a number that focused on specifically this problem. So there's Axler in the Cosmos ecosystem. So they have bridges to different chains, but they first sort of came to market with this idea that you can bring Bitcoin into Cosmos.

Starting point is 00:26:03 Also, there's no MCBT, which is working in a similar problem. We were reached out to it from the folks of block stacks. Yeah, as a community, we'll evaluate some of these solutions. And then I think in the beginning we'll try to dipartosin with diversified distribution across several different bridging solutions. But I think over time, we'll see one or two that rest of the top. So one thing was that I noticed in the announcement, or maybe in a blog post or somewhere, that the reason given for purchasing Bitcoin as collateral was that it was uncorrelated to Terra.

Starting point is 00:26:35 and I think you said that over time, the reserve would be stocked with other uncorrelated assets. So what other assets do you have in mind and how will you make those decisions about which ones to include? Well, so like earlier, I noted that building exogenous forex reserves is driven as much by diplomatic arguments as by economic ones. So I think it makes sense that as we expand into different chains, if we sort of build system whereby some portion of UST is being used to acquire the native staking assets of those chains, then back case, I think we'll be able to buy a lot of goodwill and user comfort with that

Starting point is 00:27:18 because, well, this is for obvious reasons. Oh, so, but you're thinking crypto assets then? Crypto assets, yes. Oh, okay. It sounds like whatever chains you end up bridging to, those would be kind of prime candidates. Yeah, so I'm kind of thinking that the vast majority of the value would be in Bitcoin, but I think there should be still small, you know, forex users on each of the smart contract platforms against which you can mint and redeem in native-staking assets because the user experience of that is much more friendly. Right. So for example, if you're trying to mint on Solana,

Starting point is 00:27:57 for instance, like you don't want to have to bridge Bitcoin over and then like Luna over and then try it's something. Whereas, like, if you can just, like, burn Solana and then Mint U.S.T, then that's a very fun user experience. Yeah, it's much easier. So in terms of these assets in the Luna Foundation Guard Reserve, you know, obviously Bitcoin and then whatever else you add, what will you be doing with that? Will you be lending it at all? Are you hypothesating it in any way? Or, you know, what are your thoughts there? No, we wouldn't touch it until the reserve system is ready to know. ready to go. No, but I mean, so when it is ready to go, then it will only be, I guess, used for like minting and redeeming or will you be doing anything additional with it?

Starting point is 00:28:45 So yeah, it wouldn't be deployed. It would just be put into, like the easiest way of thinking about it is that once the bridging is ready and then we're working on a very special type of decks, it's kind of like a virtual AMM, whereby you can deposit UST and then deposit Bitcoin and people can trade against it. So once that's done, we will deposit and we will look to burn the keys once we, if you like, operator keys are no longer necessary. Wait, I don't know if I fully understand. You're saying that this is the Bitcoin that's being put up as the reserve. You're going to essentially use it like as the liquidity pool on a Dex? So how this system works is that we're going to set up a special smart contract into which it's going to accept two pools. It's going to accept

Starting point is 00:29:33 a pool of UST and it's going to accept a pool of Bitcoin. And then the Oracle is going to be streaming prices in terms of what the effective prices of Bitcoin at that given moment in time. So at any point, people can mint UST, so retrieve the UST from this pool by depositing Bitcoin at an exchange rate of what the Oracle is telling us at par value. And on the redemption side, you will be able to deposit USD back and then retrieve Bitcoin at 99% of PAR. So by enforcing some small spread on the redemption side,

Starting point is 00:30:10 you can make sure that the reserves only kick in when there's a depegging event on USD. Oh, oh, I see now. Oh, this is very fascinating. And then just to go back, actually, when we were talking about additional assets, assets, who would decide which assets get added to the reserve? Would that be the Dow or would it be just like deals you make with those chains or how would you be deciding that?

Starting point is 00:30:35 So actually, after we launched LFT, these are very accommodated people and then they come from various different places from the Terra ecosystem, but also people that are from like sit somewhere in between. So we've gotten a ton of proposals. Some people, offering to negotiate, you know, some discount deal with some other foundations or there's like a really good market opportunity for this asset because it seems cheap right now. But we haven't been able to reach quorum on buying anything else besides Bitcoin so far. You mean in the Dow or like among the multi-stick holders or who's in the quorum? So among the multi-stickholders.

Starting point is 00:31:16 Okay. So let's talk about Anchor. Currently it pays out interest of almost 20%. And obviously we've seen in recent weeks there are a number of people, including crypto investors such as polychain capital and ARCA, that are concerned that this interest rate is not sustainable. What do you think of that opinion? And then what factors would have to be in place for you to think that it's time to lower that yield? Well, so the definition of sustainability is the extent to which something can be sustained. Well, so another way of putting this is that when we first launched banker, the really interesting story is that most people that we spoke to said that 19% is too low. Because that was back during a time in early 2021, when you could still get like 100%, 200% APR on stable

Starting point is 00:32:04 fund pools. So the idea was that, no, you guys are not going to get any market share with 19% because it's just too boring in D5. Like you guys are still like thinking in the mindset of traditional finance companies, like you can't be Wells Fargo anymore. Like you, everything needs to be in triple digits to catch attention. And so we heard that, but we saw a future in which the yields could come down in the future where, like, you know, when the demand for leverage collapses,

Starting point is 00:32:29 then in that case, during this sort of derrish market, you know, like yields would converge to something that you see in traditional finance plus some risk premium. And that's exactly where we have today. And now people are saying the same people actually that said 20% is too low

Starting point is 00:32:44 are now saying that 19% is unsustainable. And it's not so much, that 19% needs to be held in perpetuity. That is definitely not the goal. But if you're asking the question of whether Anchor can be a valuable tool and sort of modulating this sort of volatility in leverage demand in crypto to offer something that is a rate of growth, right? So 20% is definitely higher than what you would get in other stable coin polls.

Starting point is 00:33:14 But at the same time, it's something that we can, you know, responsibly bring down slowly over some period of time, then I think the answer is yes. And what kind of when, like what would need to be happening for you to think that, okay, now is the time to lower it? So actually recently there was a, I think a governance proposal on Anchor, whereby the anchor rate is changing to a dynamically calibrated rate. So the idea is that every month, the protocol will take assessment of the change in the size of the yield reserve month over month.

Starting point is 00:33:48 and it would change the anchor rate by the change in that delta. So, for example, if the yield reserve goes down by 5%, then it would lower the anchor rate by 5%. Well, 5% of the 20s, so that would be like 1%. Right. And vice versa, if the yield reserve has been operating at a surplus, then it would slightly increase the anchor rate to something that's more reasonable. So that allows the protocol to calibrate itself to a state

Starting point is 00:34:16 where it can reasonably operate at a surplus over some long period of time. But at the same time, the changes aren't so drastic because the maximum rate of change that can happen over that month is a relatively small number. Okay. Okay, that sounds interesting. And so Anchored now has also launched an avalanche. Have you decided to move to any additional chains? And will you have the same yield on all the chains?

Starting point is 00:34:44 Yeah, so the yield opportunity on the lending side is going to be consistent across all the chains. So we just went live on Avalanche. We're going live on with Bonded Adam and Bonda Salana, I think over the next couple weeks. And then we'll be following that up with Polygon. Oh, okay. All right, Doe. You made it through all the questions that I have. And now we can talk about app stuff.

Starting point is 00:35:13 but we will first get a quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible. Building the next big thing in crypto, Cross River has your back. Whether you are a crypto exchange, end-of-team marketplace, or wallet, Cross River's integrated API-based platform provides the payments solutions you need to grow. Cross River is powering the future of financial services. A CryptoFin industry award winner and an early partner for companies like Coinbase, Cross River's tech stack supports crypto partners and enables real-time money movement for consumers. Welcome to a new world of crypto-friendly banking.

Starting point is 00:35:52 Request your Fiat-on-OffRamp solution now at crossriver.com slash crypto. Finance is changing. Strategies are changing. Holding is changing. Beefy Finance, the multi-chain yield optimizer, allows you to maximize passive income while you sleep. Simply deposit your crypto into B-Fee's secure, industry-leading auto-compounding vaults to put your funds to work. Each one of B-Fee's 740 volts automatically reinvests the interest gained on your crypto deposits,

Starting point is 00:36:27 earning you more while saving you time and fees. B-Fee's strategies create bank-busting APYs with 0% deposit fees at the click of a button. Join $1.4 billion of investments and understand why so many users trust Beefy with their financial independence. Visit Bifi.finance and take control of your financial future. Join over 10 million people using crypto.com, the easiest place to buy, earn, and spend over 150 cryptocurrencies. New users enjoy zero credit card fees on crypto purchases in their first 30 days. With crypto.com earn, you can get industry-leading interest rates of up to 8.5%.

Starting point is 00:37:12 on over 40 coins, including Bitcoin, and earn up to 14% on stable coins. With the crypto.com visa card, you can spend your crypto anywhere. Enjoy up to 8% cash back instantly, plus 100% rebates for your Netflix, Spotify, and Amazon Prime subscriptions, and zero annual fees. Download the crypto.com app and get $25 with the code Laura. Link in the description. Back to my conversation with dough. Okay, so you told me you wanted to talk about the new apps you're building in Terra right now.

Starting point is 00:37:48 So I'm just going to like give you your pick. What new app would you like to talk about? So, I mean, they're not apps, so to speak, but so I'm spending a lot of time. I mean, so I sort of think about myself as kind of a toy maker. So I find I find the most happiness when I'm thinking about like some new thing that can happen in crypto and still hasn't happened yet. So that's sort of zero to one stage is the most fascinating to me. And like, Tara is really interesting. Running TFL is less interesting. So, but it's, it's, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:38:23 So, well, anyway, so one of the things that I've been thinking about is, especially now that the rest of DFI has been really boring, as, you know, leverage command has dropped to almost zero. I'm starting to think about, like, what is going to take to turn DFI speculation and to route it to productive. use cases. Potential answer here is fungible labor markets. It has a couple of components, but if you look at most Dow's, right, up until recently, they were throwing hundreds of millions or billions of dollars away to incentivize liquidity. But that's sort of a, I think, a secondary

Starting point is 00:38:59 order initiative. Like, ultimately what Nowes wants is more people to build on their blockchains, to build on their apps, to build more front-hunts. So essentially, they want to support developers. but they're taking an indirect way of getting there by incentivizing liquidity instead of developer participation. And vice versa, from the perspective of open source developers, they are massively incentivized to just fork existing projects and not add to the existing innovation because the economics of launching a new project and printing a coin

Starting point is 00:39:32 is way higher than working with an existing project because there isn't like a scalable labor market that can, work with their incentives. So what if you had fungible labor markets? So what I mean is, what if somebody can put up their productive hours for sale and it can trade on a tax, like an A&M, for instance? And then a Dow can go out and say,

Starting point is 00:39:55 hey, look, I'm going to buy a million hours productive developer time. And I'm going to give all the apps in the ecosystem the right to redeem these time tokens. So in that case, like somebody could go to Avalon's, for instance, and say, hey, look, I'm going to put my developer hours on sale. The Avalon style is going to buy a lot of it. And then I can spend my time doing open source contribution to, let's say, Trader Joe's or Pangolin or Deepass Finance.

Starting point is 00:40:21 And I can have a lot of fun doing it while at the same time being fairly compensated for the work that I'm doing that is efficiently priced by the market. An interesting side product of this that I think is even more interesting is that now, once you have fungible labor, you can put this as collateral to borrow money against it. So it would sort of be the first case whereby you can transition DFI from pure speculative money play into something that efficiently allocates capital to productive use cases. And the most productive use case in crypto, I might add, which is the labor output of open source developers. Huh. Okay.

Starting point is 00:40:58 I feel like I need to unpack this a little bit. So tell me if I got this right. Basically, a Dow would, like there would be an AMM, but it would be for developer hours. and then a Dow would kind of like purchase that. But then you're saying that that would be used as collateral to make loans because so my first reaction is like if something is going to happen in the future to put it up to obtain an asset right now when you don't even know if you have the other thing. Like that's a little bit.

Starting point is 00:41:28 First of all, to my mind, that's risky. But second also, I guess like my other thought is so if a developer is going to just be working across these different chains, you know, there is something to institutional memory. Like, you know, if you kind of specialize in Ethereum or Terra or whatever, then there's just like certain kind of idiosyncrasies, I would imagine in the code for like the different protocols or whatever that, the more you learn that, the more you build on it, then the bigger benefit that you get and also the more valuable you are to that protocol. So those are kind of maybe two questions that I have about what you're saying? Well, to answer your first question, I think this is

Starting point is 00:42:14 quite similar through people being able to take out loans against their paychecks. Right. So, for example, if you are a lawyer or like if you work for a Fortune 500 company, then it becomes much easier to take out a loan from a bank. Whereas for me, I could go to a bank, every bank in the country, and I'll be turned down by every single one because I'm not considered to have like an actual job, right? So I'm sure that's not true, but anyway. Again, you probably have your net worth, but anyway, whatever, not important. Well, the idea is that if you are able to prove an on-chain track record of, you know,

Starting point is 00:42:53 various different companies of a blockchain ecosystem that are willing to redeem your hourly tokens at some rate, right? And all of that is recorded on chain. then it stands to reason that a lending protocol, like let's say, like Mars or compound or AVE, can take those time tokens as collateral to issue you alone, right?

Starting point is 00:43:16 And how these zones could be liquidated is that, well, if you have a proven track record of being a successful developer and a lot of people are willing to bid through your time, this lending protocol can now sell off your time tokens for cheap. And you would essentially be working for less money than you used to be before. And then the,

Starting point is 00:43:33 lending protocol can successfully protect against their downside risk. Okay, this is interesting. Now it makes more sense. I mean, I do think, yeah, there's like two ones in that market of getting money early from your paycheck. You know, you're right. Like a lawyer or doctor probably will be able to take out a big loan to buy a house or whatever.

Starting point is 00:43:53 But then, for instance, I know of some of those programs where essentially I'm pretty sure it's like lower salary workers who as they're working, they can get the, their next paycheck so they don't have to wait for every two weeks or every month or whatever. And then it just sort of feels like a little risky. Like they're not managing their money very well. That's why they need to do that. They're like living a little too close to paycheck to paycheck. But anyway, okay, so that's fascinating.

Starting point is 00:44:21 But so you're thinking about trying to create such a market? Yeah. So it's one of the things that I'm spending a lot of time working on. Like you can also build things on top of this that are really interesting, right? So you can build on some notion of credit because what we didn't have in 2017 that we do have now is people spend a lot more time trying to curate their on-chain behavior than they used to before. And I think a large, there's two contributing factors. Like, number one, we have better on-chain analytics. So you don't want to do anything like sketch or weird that gets you like Zach XPT on Twitter or something like that. And second, there's air drops, right?

Starting point is 00:45:02 So you have a bunch of air drops that are being used to distribute wealth of early protocols to as many users as possible. The only way that people are sort of doing curation now is trying out lots of different D5 protocols. But what they actually should be doing and what protocols should be doing is that they should be curating their air drops based on past behavior of something that they want to accomplish. So for example, for an NFT white list, they might look at how the wallet holders have interacted with previous NFT white lists and have they dumped the NFT right after. Are they willing to, you know, like hold it for a long period of time? Or for example, for like protocols like MakerDAO or AVE or compound, they might sort of create a priority queue of liquidators based on their previous history of how long they were willing to hold on to the beta risk of the assets of their. they've required. So for example, for Maker, if they participate in a liquidation and then they got ether at a cheaper price and they're willing to hold it instead of dumping into the market right

Starting point is 00:46:04 away, then maybe this person gets a higher place in the priority queue. So you can sort of create a positive flywheel of effects whereby you incentivize people to exhibit good on-chain behavior because now you have this sort of wealth distribution through air drops and some scarce resource in crypto, like NFD white lists and liquidations, starting to prep users that exhibit this good behavior. And I think it's like a virtuous cycle that goes on and on. I find that really interesting. But then, but how does that relate to the fungible labor markets or is that just a separate idea? Oh, so for example, like you can apply this idea to like the fungible labor markets as well. So if you're taking a more, shall we say,

Starting point is 00:46:48 like if Ethereum wins, we all win type of outlook, or if like Luna wins, we all win type of outlook. Then in that case, you can start to give out preferable loan terms to people that exhibit this positive good citizen behavior on chain. Right. Like if you don't care about that, then if you don't believe that your ability to pay a loan has anything to do with you being a good citizen,

Starting point is 00:47:11 that's fine too. But you can still look at on-chain behavior of how you are spending the capital that you borrow. So for example, if you're taking out a loan to go giga long on Luna, then probably your loan to value ratio should be lower. So if you're barring money against your future time and your giga longing, well, Luna is like one thing. If you're giga longing on like Doge Quan, then your LTV should definitely be lower than

Starting point is 00:47:35 somebody that takes that loan and then uses it to, you know, like buy something interesting. Huh. Okay. And I'm sure you've seen on Twitter in recent days that there's just a lot of time. chatter about what dev salary should be, especially for people working on the core protocol at these different layer ones. What are your thoughts on that? And how do you think this fungible labor market idea could affect that? So I think traditionally, if you look at the best state's hard practices, well, and of course, I'm not an expert here. But the way that I think

Starting point is 00:48:12 about it is the expected utility output of a very strong individual control. for a very successful company protocol is generally the same or higher than somebody that takes on a lot of risks and jumps to building their own thing. That's how you incentivize best talent to stay like in your protocol or in your Dow or in your company versus like shriking out and doing their own thing. And the way that you do this doesn't mean necessarily that you need to pay more than somebody that raises like a Series B or a startup. But it's the idea that from a risk adjusted return perspective, like you actually don't need money after some threshold. So you definitely don't want to underpay people.

Starting point is 00:48:54 But at the same time, like if you pay them top dollar, then it doesn't actually matter to them like whether to make a little bit more money after that. So I think returns from an absolute basis should correspond to the amount of risks that people are digging. But at the same time, like you, I think you need to be cognizant that if you're paying above market, then usually people don't care. Right. But then so you feel like this fungible labor market would make things more efficient? Or like, what do you, how do you think that that would affect how much doves are being paid? I think it would make pay more cyclical, which means that during a time when there is a lot of demand to build various things for douse, I can see developer salaries going up to something ridiculous. Right. So the types of things that you see in sort of traditional employment,

Starting point is 00:49:47 markets like wage-stickiness, that doesn't apply anymore because Dow's would just be on like a buying spree for the very best top talent. And there wouldn't be any sort of institutions or structures that prevents wage-stakingness from forming. So you would be able to see some people getting paid like $5 million, like $10 million because they have what it takes. So for example, if you were trying to hire a bond tag, for instance, from your finance and let's say that this market existed in 2021 or 2020. And in that case, I think his salary would have been like above that for sure. You know, but you would also be able to see, you know, demand for time tokens going down if in a specific sector there's more people that are willing to supply the same unit of labor. Right, right. But right

Starting point is 00:50:31 now in crypto, yeah, definitely that's not the case. I feel like there's a lot more demand. We're definitely far off from that day. So I don't know, is there any more that you wanted to add about these thoughts that you're having and building the fungible labor market? Like, are you actively trying to build something like that right now? Or is this just something you've been kind of noodling on in your head? I actually have the guy that's working on and staying with me right now. He's like behind this wall. But it's, yeah, it's a project called Kronos Finance. And he's, he actually used to be like a founding member at TFL. And used to be our head of research. But like, you know, We put together a seed-found recently, and he's built a team out here, and we're chipping at it pretty frequently.

Starting point is 00:51:20 Huh, interesting. Okay. So maybe we'll start to see more freelance devs who were paid via some tokenized marketplace. So I don't know if you have other apps that you want to talk about, but I did actually want to ask you about about Thirteen, you know, kind of where you saw that in the broader ecosystem. and, you know, kind of why Lune is integrating with that and, like, where you think that would go? So I think the market that Thorchain is tapping into is absolutely massive. And it's one of those things that really do need to exist in the crypto space. And the reason for this is, you know, even today, like, if you wanted to trade Bitcoin,

Starting point is 00:52:03 the only real way to do it is to go through centralized intermediaries. So if you're not comfortable with Bitcoin custodianship of your Bitcoin, then there isn't really a way to trade any of this launching. But the thing is, if you have a decentralized exchange that are credibly crushing, right, bridges through all the major protocols. And then you can trade Bitcoin and all the other UTXO assets in a credible way with low slippage. Then it becomes massively exciting. Then in that case, it sort of takes the business model of most of the major centralized spot exchanges. The issue I feel like is it's very difficult to compete on a cost basis in terms of slipage and trading piece on what centralized exchanges are willing to offer.

Starting point is 00:52:52 And number two, I think the market is definitely very excited, but it's a little bit cautious given some of the security issues that have happened through Doorchain last year. So I think it's going to take a little bit of time to build that trust back. But once they do, I think Doorchain is going to be. like one of the most major, one of the most important institutions in Britain. And so is that why LFG is not using Thorchain now or would it might it in the future once the security issues are really kind of squared away? Or what are your thoughts on that?

Starting point is 00:53:27 Well, so I am personally very bullish on Thorchain and I think it's very important. But the money that the council is managing for LFG, we can't spend it based on personal sets of beliefs. So we need to be objective and look at things. And I guess it's very hard to justify objectively parking, billions of dollars into the door chain just quite yet. But I think over time, there's less security incidents and people build more faith

Starting point is 00:53:57 and the ability for a door chain to bridge over, I think that's definitely in the option space. Okay. So in terms of apps on Terra, I mean, it's like a burgeoning ecosystem, You know, I looked at something I think someone in your community tweeted about all the applications being built. So are there any other ones that you wanted to chat about? Well, just that curiosity, which ones did you take a look at?

Starting point is 00:54:24 Well, it was more, I mean, there were so many. So all I did was just no, I mean, you have ones across lending, derivatives, dexes, wallets, obviously, synthetics, you know, stable coins, gambling, social stuff, gaming, savings and payments, tooling, yield farming. I mean, there's so much asset management, insurance. So it's just like a whole ecosystem right now. So I don't know. I mean, within that, they were literally probably, I don't know, a few hundred on that image that I saw to that. I don't know if there are any other particular ones that you want to talk about. Yeah. So there's a couple that, you know, that stood out to me as very interesting. So prison protocol is, is very interesting because it's, it's one of those.

Starting point is 00:55:07 primitives that allow defy yields to become more responsible if you may. So it's kind of a interest rate swap protocol. So the idea is that if you put in any yield-bearing asset into the Prism smart contract, it gives you two derivatives. So one of them is called the P

Starting point is 00:55:23 asset, which gives you exposure to the principle. And the second is called the Y asset, which gives you physical delivery of the yield of the yield-bearing asset on a monthly basis. So if you wanted to lever up and get exposure to only, let's say, yield potential of Luna or an LP token on Astroport, then you would put those LP tokens or

Starting point is 00:55:44 Luna into the Prism Small Contract, get two tokens, and then sell the P-Luna token, and then buy more Y-Luna token so that you get leveraged exposure to just leave. If you don't care about the yield and you wanted leverage exposure to Luna's principal value accumulation over time, then you mint them sell Y Luna and then just buy more P-Luna. And I'm sorry, what was the name of that one? Prison Protocol. Oh, okay. That's super fascinating.

Starting point is 00:56:14 Yeah, I feel like definitely it would appeal. It's probably to both, there's like two different types of people that it would appeal to. So I like that. So one other thing I wanted to ask you about was South Korea, which, you know, which is where you're from, just elected a new president who's pro-crypto. What impact do you see that having on terror? and on crypto in general. As far as I understand, I do think that you moved out of Korea.

Starting point is 00:56:43 I'm not actually sure what the reason is for that. I think you're now based in Singapore. But obviously, Korea has been a huge market for crypto. It's got major adoption in that country. So I was just curious for your thoughts on what that signified. Actually, what's been interesting in this presidential cycle was that both major candidates were like a third of or some time was being spent on talking about crypto, which is super fascinating.

Starting point is 00:57:07 But at the same time, it's not surprising, it's not surprising given that a third of the population in Korea, either hold or trade crypto. So that's crazy. So if you look at, I think like the MAU for update, it's like 10 million users or something at a population base of about 45 million. So which is crazy. That's crazy. Like you had one of the major presidential candidates minting NFTs, right?

Starting point is 00:57:34 And I think they got somebody from HASH to help them out with that or something. And then air dropped them to people that showed up to rallies or, you know, sent in campaign donations or things like that. And then the president-elect, one of his most important campaign promises was to delay introducing crypto taxes for another year. So now there will be no crypto taxes for another two years. This is exactly why I keep telling my publisher they need to do a Korean edition of, my book, but anyway, keep going. Yeah, so Korea's a really interesting market, right? So most Koreans got into crypto, I think, around the bull market of 2017.

Starting point is 00:58:13 And there's a lot of fresh entrants that entered the market since. So they actually don't really understand the provenance of, you know, Bitcoin or Ethereum. So they don't understand why these assets have more Lindy effects, especially because most of the literature and the discussions that have been made around Bitcoin and Ethereum are in a foreign language. So it's a little bit different from China, which, you know, the core of that crypto base are minors, right? Which got them very early so they understand why Bitcoin is powerful, why Ethereum is powerful, why some altcoins are powerful. But if you look at the top charts on Upbit, it's actually not like, you know, Bitcoin or Ethereum or even Luna that's, you know, that is the highest volume.

Starting point is 00:58:53 On any given day on Upbit, usually, especially if the markets are bullish, you would have like this green shit coin that you've never heard of. It could be actually like what, okay, this is hilarious. So one of the Korean projects was called seven ships or something like that. And the reason why it was called seven ships was that there was a famous Korean general back in like the 1400s or something that defeated an armada of Japanese invaders with just seven ships. And the idea was that in this day and age where there's hundreds of foreign crypto projects that are outlining the front page of up. we are going to be like that, you know, like freedom fighter general that bought back all the

Starting point is 00:59:35 foreign invaders. And that they pumped. Like there were billions of dollars in trading volume for seven ships at one point. And if you look at what the project actually does, it's hilarious. So they create these cooling machines that look like the ships that the general used back in the day. And then they plant this very special type of flower that only grows in Jeju Island. And the idea is that you would use the heat that is coming from Bitcoin miners and use that to fuel this little flower thing, which can only grow in tropical climates. That's like mind-blowingly stupid, but that's just stayed incredibly well. Oh, my God. Oh, no. I hope a lot of people, I'm sure a lot of, I guess a lot of people probably lost money on that. Everybody lost money, yes.

Starting point is 01:00:26 Oh, no. Oh, boy. I'm surprised that Koreans are still so enthusiastic after something like that. Well, so the reason why crypto is so popular in Korea is because the other investable asset classes are so heavily regulated. For example, if you look at real estate, they've started to cut down on the ability for people to take out loans to purchase houses because they want to keep the price of housing low. But what that also means is that it creates a massive entry barrier for people that want to buy houses is because unless you have the ability to job like a million dollars in a house,

Starting point is 01:01:01 you can't buy anything. And then if you look at the stock market, the only thing worth buying is Samsung. And for all the other stuff, it's like, yeah, I mean, like you understand. Like stock market is just not as attractive in lots of other markets outside the United States. So you can invest in something, but generally it doesn't go up like what the S&P 500 goes up.

Starting point is 01:01:21 And if you are making a strong directional bet, 33% of the stock market is basically Samsung. So you're betting all your eggs on just one company, which is very risky. So crypto being, you know, not having those, you know, like regulatory safeguards and, you know, people haven't stepped in yet to try to curb in this industry. And in some sense, it's like fundamentally very difficult to do. Like you can't try to regulate Bitcoin, for instance, or try to make Bitcoin less successful just from the perspective of one smaller nation state.

Starting point is 01:01:52 So which is why a lot of people got very excited about the asset class and started to ap in at scale. And there's definitely some downsides of this. So like the seven ship story and several different, you know, horror stories are just indicative of speculative fervor that isn't really being shaped by, you know, genuine interest in the asset class. It's more, you know, lack of interesting alternatives to invest in. Yeah, or some kind of desire to get rich quick or like treat it more like gambling. But then so to go back to the earlier question about the new Korean president, like obviously, I mean, people in the U.S., where is, you know, most of my audience is based will know, obviously, you have had run-ins with regulators here in the U.S., the SEC.

Starting point is 01:02:37 But, you know, Korea kind of has, like, gone back and forth in terms of how welcoming the regulation has been to crypto. So kind of what's your sense of, like, how this new president might affect the market there? So I think it's going to be a super positive development. and especially because the last administration, which was a little bit more analogous to the Democratic Party in the U.S., they were very strong-handed with crypto, and that bought a lot of ire from, as I said previously,

Starting point is 01:03:09 a significant chunk of the population. So this incoming president ran on a platform to counter everything that the previous administration did, and one of the ways in which he did that was to cater to a very crypto-specific platform. So that essentially boils down to, you know, three large promises. Number one, to deregulate crypto exchanges. This is going to be massive.

Starting point is 01:03:30 Not all positive, but it's going to be massive in the sense that lots of things that crypto exchanges weren't able to do before. So, for example, like besides Upbit, it hasn't been able, it hasn't been possible to sign up for a Fiat on ramp account on any of the other major exchanges for the last two years, right? Which is why Update is dominant. And even for Upbit, they need to use this tiny, savings bank that nobody used to use before Upen used to integrate. So the user experience of getting

Starting point is 01:03:57 money into crypto is terrible. Now, it's crazy that so many people are trading crypto despite of all of this, right? Yeah, so crypto exchange is going to be deregulated. Number two, he said he's going to tell about people to do ICOs. I have mixed feelings about this, but at the same time, it's probably not thereish for things that are going on with crypto. Number three, to delay crypto taxes for at least another year. So at least two years off from now. All right. Well, is Is there anything I didn't ask you about since you know you said that you kind of wanted to give your own thoughts on certain things? Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention for my listeners? No, no. This is great. It was very fun. Thanks for putting this together.

Starting point is 01:04:37 Oh, yeah. No, I really enjoyed it too. I'm really glad that we did the improv section of the interview that was super fun. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on Unchained. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for joining us today. To learn more about Doe, Tara, and all of the other stuff that we discussed on the show, check out the show notes for this episode. Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin, with help from Anthony Yun, Daniel Nuss, Mark Murdoch, Shoshonk, and CLK transcription. Thanks for listening.

Unchained - Do Kwon Is Backing UST With Bitcoin – And Here’s What Else He Is Building - Ep.335

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.